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Mirwen
07-07-2005, 09:02 PM
Rebecca:Right now you seems to me a little bit sarcastical.:) I said what I had on my heart (of course not everything) and I understand that you understand it:) And I thank you for your tolerance:). But let me tell you some of my opinions on art. No, I don't think you will tolerate modern art:arteest: (http://misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=0#) after this post, but please... try to listen.;) (http://misc.php?do=getsmilies&wysiwyg=1&forumid=0#)
How did I look one year before from now - I was studiing 3th year (from 4) of high school of art - advertising school. I loved Leonardo Da Vinci and from newer age Matthew Stawicky, Luis Royo, Larry Elmore and my favorite one Keith Parkinson. I hated homosexuals. I hated so-called modern art. I hated everybody - even myself (In that time I made a new international word: L'egression [No, it is not in french agression] - it express createful agression that person have on himself. In 4th year - a new young teacher of drawing came. Along with this we started learning styles of 19th century to 20th century.
It was one or one and half year of brutal change. First hour of drawing that new teacher came to me, looked at my drawing and said: "It is completly wrong", "Do you see that line of the head?..." and so on. Than he took an eraser and erased my drawing completly! Justa few weeks ago he told me that In that moment when he erased my drawing My face changed color to red and he thought that I will really beat him. I didn't - because I am not violent person. After that he started to learning my class what is modern art and what is it all about. I can't tell you everything what all I learned. But I can tell you this. I dont love rennesaince right now. I respect it as I respect modern art of 20th century. Now I respect that somebody can have his own color of skin (I didn't like gypsies), his religion, his sexual way. His Whatever. What I love now is realism of 19th century and art nuovo (Such czech names as Alfons Mucha, Myslbek, Marak, Brozik, Piepenhagen) an from now I love what I would call Digitalism. Now is the time when modern art became classical and old art with new medias (3D and tablets) became modern. This time belong to us, to you - to modern classicals! It is our purpose to put out modern art. But let me tell you this. What modern art did was that modern art flaunted classical art. But without this it brings new things - such as new medias, clean design, and very important souls in art. I was thinkink about all these things and still thinkink but what I've realized is that I we have a digital renessaince right now, we should take the best of E V E R Y T H I N G . Put it together and create new form, not just make new rennesaince with new medias but with old thoughts.

You said that modern art killed an art. But if modern art killed art, then it in fact killed itself:). Sounds like nonsense? The fact is that art cannot be killed. The thing that modern art kiled is more important. Look at you great cities, and tell me what can you see. Beautiful skycrapers right? That is modern art, there you can see what modern art killed - the Nature.

In my opinion we should learn from the centuries and try to create a new world. Classical art is beautiful and simple to understand, but it is soul-less. Modern art kills nature so what I am saying is - no this way: What would you deign?

It is my genaral question to everybody. And now I am silent as a grave. I have several solutions, but I would like to hear others solutions first. sci-fi? No it's beeing happenning right now. We are now. We are the future.

Mirwen
07-07-2005, 09:05 PM
Mirwen, you don't know how funny that sentence is! I have a pain laughing! lol :)
:scream:Hey! this is cool. I didn't see it before. And now I can - can't stop laughing - did only men Hee hehehe:scream:

thetrianglekid
07-07-2005, 09:06 PM
haha thx rebecca, i take that as a HUGE compliment. i was trying to draw like your example pics on the first page, but not getting anywhere close.

bandersnatch, i think your pics have got a great sense of proportion and weight. something i struggle with :(

Rebeccak
07-07-2005, 09:24 PM
Mirwen,

Wonderful post, and thank you for sharing what's on your heart. I do know that without modernism we would have no lovely skyscrapers, and trust me, I'm happy I'm not living in a hut. I do just love to rant, though :) as this makes me happy ;)

Now, trust me, I am not such a Luddite that I'm not aware of the current Renaissance taking place within the realm of Digital Art and Movies ~ I've taken to watching geeky movies laden with special effects with my friends, and I am constantly AMAZED at the advances made in the Digital Realm ~ holy cow! When I go to SIGGRAPH this year, I am taking a bike helmet as a form of personal protection, so that when I am blown away my dental costs will be reduced ;).

It is a bit funny how everyone on the thread began to copy Michelangelo's works. Notice that I never said that people had to do this! I only wrote that that's what I like to do, and I absolutely cannot deny that I'm a Renaissance freak who back in the day would probably have been happy as a lark mixing paint for some fuddy duddy Old Master. BUT...the reason I emphasize learning from the Old Masters is because I see flaws in current forms of Art which make me lament the loss of traditional teaching in Art Schools.

For example, in 3D work, I can see MYRIAD flaws in some models which could be improved. I am no Maya Master ~ and ironically, I am better at technical Maya modeling than I am at Organic Modeling (mostly due to inexperience) ~ but I can certainly spot flaws from a mile away. So my rant is about artistic TRAINING less than artistic FORM ~ I am as much amazed, inspired, and obsessed by 3D work that I see in other forums on this site as I suspect you and many others are. 3D - Woo!

Having said all of that, let me say that I think ABSOLUTE statements of ANY kind are the kinds of things that produce people like Hitler and your other demons of history, be they religious, political, or otherwise in pursuit. I find it touching that you would admit to having had experienced some of this ABSOLUTISM in your "youth", and I think we all grow out of these things as we begin to take in more experiences of the world and stretch our capacities to think, accept, and grow. You will continue to change for the better, as you have admitted that you already have, and I would just encourage you to continue to do so as you
discover more about the world than you know.

As for your teacher, if I could, I would hit him ~ this kind of treatment for students is for me unacceptable. People are delicate in their beginning stages of learning ANYTHING, and artists in particular are succeptible to criticism. So on your behalf, I give him a big one-fingered salute ;).

Mirwen, thanks for sharing your thoughts, and I hope you know that I'm not a Drawing Nazi, and DO accept all forms of art. I love video installation, movies, some performance (tho not much!) and multimedia and design work of all kind. I DO have strong opinions when it comes to drawing, but mainly it is because I truly lament the fact that traditional training has been eroded to such a point in my country that it has a hard time coming back. 3D gives 2D new life as it demands traditional skills of every stripe. The world changes quickly, and we have to adapt more quickly than ever before in history ~ but I don't believe that we should completely shed the artistic heritage which took centuries to build because 'South Park' is a hit show ;)

That's my rant, and I'm sticking to it :)

Mirwen
07-07-2005, 09:38 PM
I will ask you tomorrow because I need my big dictionary - so many new words - I am learning here both anatomy and English. This is great!:)

Just one thought to my teacher - right now he is one of my best friends :)
Here is 23: 38 -going to sleep - good night

ogar555
07-07-2005, 09:44 PM
Hey hey! this thread is really interesting, i might throw something in for you all to laugh at! :D

NoirQ
07-07-2005, 10:30 PM
keep up the good work everyone! :) this threads great :D

I'm gunna pitch in on the modern art, now, i haven't studied art, i don't know all the intricaces, but here we go. If i can put a canvas on the floor, get out my wang, piss on it in a variety of random patterns, possibly created whilst doing a cowboy" yeeeha!" style motion, and sell it for millions, calling it art, then bleh, its just retarded. and thats how i see a lot of modern art :D give me like, portraits and scenes anyday :/

have a good un everyone :)

edit: edited post 170 (http://www.cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2441909&postcount=170)

Rebeccak
07-07-2005, 10:32 PM
Mirwen wrote:

>Just one thought to my teacher - right now he is one of my best friends :)

Hahahahahaha! Okay, THAT is just funny. I take what I said about him back! :D

RO
07-07-2005, 10:38 PM
No! It is more funny not taking it back :P

Rebeccak
07-07-2005, 10:48 PM
Mirwen wrote:

>...(Now) I love what I would call Digitalism

Oh thank heavens you said that. I kept asking my friends what we should call contemporary art ~ Post - Post Modern Art? UberPostModern Art? I couldn't come up with something right.

Digitalism. Yep. Works for me. :)

Desp#2/Rog,

Since we are speaking of tolerance, I will acknowledge that it's funny either way ;).

~Rebeccak

bumskee
07-07-2005, 11:26 PM
rebeccak, just dropping by to thank you for great tips and insights. It's been hectic trying to follow all those pages and pages of your workshop and the earlier one. Great stuff and really made me think a lot about gestures and especially opposing curves.. Of course it's due to my ignorance but thanks again for this. I will read more and study more. :)

Spin99
07-07-2005, 11:29 PM
Hi Rebecca,

I got really inspired by your topics.
Actually I did a lot of anatomy drawing back when I was an FA student,
and it was by far my favourite.
I love gesture marks.

So without knowing the whereabouts of my conte sticks charcoal or pad,
I grabbed a model pic.

Then I found a PS brush I liked.
Then I got the mouse going..

Here's the results just for fun :)

SunnyRaining
07-07-2005, 11:35 PM
Ok I can't help but post now - damn you Mirwen and Rebecca - j/k ;) Mirwen I'm in high school at the moment, I don't do art (there was no art class due to not enough demand - our schools are like that :() so the best thing I can do is draw in my own time.

Regarding modern art/traditional/digital - basically to me whatever looks aesthetically appealing (a bit like photography here which I show a keen interest in) while at the same time showing thought and presenting an idea gets my vote. And I agree with you when you say that there is indeed a new "revolution" - digitalism (heh I'm doing to start using that word :)). With Rebecca, I agree that we have to be accepting of all forms of art (sorta ties in with your everything is art theory). Anyway this thread is becoming sidetracked somewhat (this really should belong in Art discussion - hope Robert doesn't mind...)

Anyway, out of the woodwork now, I would liek to thank Rebecca and Robert for giving us such a great educational and interesting thread - best one on CGtalk atm imo! :) I'll try to post some of my drawings once my scanner works, failing that I'll just whip out my tablet...

kaspaxl
07-07-2005, 11:36 PM
Hi rebbeca and everyone,

finally got around to post something here. The image is not from reference so i cant post it (duh).

Thanks rebecca for the time and effort you are putting into helping the rest of us. :applause:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/kaspaxl/oposedcurves1.gif

Keep it up folks,
--kaspaxl

scorpion007
07-08-2005, 12:41 AM
I will ask you tomorrow because I need my big dictionary - so many new words - I am learning here both anatomy and English. This is great!:)


Anytime you are at a computer and have access to the net, go to www.dictionary.com (http://www.dictionary.com), no need to carry a big book around :)

Anyway, I have drawn another study, but i want to least one more before I post. Watched a movie last night so ran outa time :P

Back to drawing...http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/bouncy.gif

EDIT:
Here's my new drawings:
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/6370/poses067dh.jpg

References:
1st pic: http://www.abcgallery.com/M/michelangelo/michelangelo23.html
3rd Pic: http://figuredrawings.com/1116JOHN%20EVERARD7.jpg

creativefx
07-08-2005, 01:22 AM
Hey Rebecca,



This is Hong. I went to school with you at Artcenter many years ago. We took a Steve Houston class together at Associates in Arts. I hope you’re doing well. Your work is awesome as well as your tutorial. I would like to see what you are up to now days. Please e-mail me.



Hong

hong@characterdesigns.com

scorpion007
07-08-2005, 01:51 AM
kaspaxl, nice stuff! I did a draw-over review of your post, hope you don't mind :)

Anyone, feel free to correct me if i did something stupid :) I'm not a pro :D
http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/1846/drawover12ll.jpg

Spin99
07-08-2005, 02:21 AM
scorpion007

** DELETED **

OK.
I didn't like your draw over.
I apologise but I'll just be honest.

I actually think your figure drawing is interesting.
No one is doing hand studies anyway.
It's just your overdraw that I didn't like next to the thread creator's.
I personally think Rebecca Kimmel should be doing the overdraws.

Please don't be upset I don't want to flame anybody.

thetrianglekid
07-08-2005, 02:30 AM
spin99, a little harsh, no?

for someone who admits he's no pro, i don't find scorpion's post "asking to be flamed" in the least. also, scorpion's draw over brings up some valid points, IMO. though i don't know too much either. no need to get personal over a review of 1) work that wasn't yours, a review that 2) wasn't offensive and 3) brings attention some valid critique?

scorpion007
07-08-2005, 02:31 AM
LOL! Well if that's how you feel, then that's fine with me. :D

kaspaxl, if you want me to delete my review, tell me and I will.

Spin99, feel free to do a better draw-over of kaspaxl's work and let me learn.

As I said, I may be wrong with the flexibility thing, so I stand corrected. I am not overweight and I tried to see how high I could get my knee up prior to critting his post.

Your drawing of hands and feet is particularly atrocious.
Well, I wasn't really aiming to do a detailed study of the hands and feet here, rather getting the placement of them down. As was the point of the exercise, no?

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 02:34 AM
Guys,

Chill out ~ this is not a big deal ~ everyone here is just here to try and help each other out ~ this has been explicitly stated EVERYWHERE on this thread ~ so please, don't jump down each others' throats, as this is not the atmosphere which I want to have for this thread. I believe scorpion007 was doing as I have encouraged EVERYONE to do, which is to raise their voice and say (or draw) what they think. Anyone may offer their opinion ~ not just me! ~ as this strengthens this community here and, I believe, helps everyone, both critiquer and critqued alike, to grow.

So let's just not get over-excited, and move on. We all bring something to the table, and I do not wish for anyone to feel too timid to offer their opinion ~ it may be taken with a grain of salt, as mine may be ~ so let's stay cool.

Thanks, guys, for your continued posts, and let's just continue to support each other in our mutual efforts to improve our work. ;)

EDIT: And SunnyRaining, YOU'RE RIGHT and I will control my ranting, or move it to another forum! ;)

~Rebeccak

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 03:24 AM
AdrielaSakamoto,

I appreciate your posts! Here is my review of your work :)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/rebeccak4/CG_Talk_Anatomy_Workshop_II_OPPOSING%20CURVES/REVIEWED_SET_AdrielaSakamot.jpg

Comments: I really like some of your linework, and the way you block out forms ~ particularly faces ~ it reminds me a bit of Pontormo, whose work you should definitely check out. He has very soft, sensitive linework which is not overly obsessive with anatomy, but which gives somewhat of a more 'impressionistic' (at least by Renaissance standards) feeling of form. This is something I think you might like to emulate, as there is already a similar quality to your work.

Crits: I would say to focus on the bigger picture in terms of curves. You will hear me saying this a lot because I believe that this is really true ~ and is a principle which, when applied consistently, can improve many a drawing. When you are not sure of an area, generalize it in a more sweeping curve which relates to the opposite side of the body. You can always go back into the drawing to add more detail, but detail which is in a similarly loose style that consistently echoes the larger curves defiining the major forms of the body.

Hope this helps, and thanks for your posts! :)

~Rebeccak

RobertoOrtiz
07-08-2005, 03:44 AM
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b216/robertoortiz1/cgtalk/sketch4.jpg


here is my update.
-R

mystikalyx
07-08-2005, 03:50 AM
Just wanted to pop in and say congrat's RK! I know you're really working hard on this thread and even a non-drawing talent like myself might manage to glean a tip or two ;)

I can't post attachments yet, but once I can .. then maybe I'll get the nerve to post a few of my dancer sketches. (Q-tips not included)

see you :: AA

Sulla
07-08-2005, 03:51 AM
Sorry I missed the first lesson. But atleast I got to do the secound lesson. I have not done any figure drawing in a long time so I figure this will be good to get me back into it. Below is my sketch done in conte crayon, charcoal and chalk.

http://www.thebibleproject.com/art/Classsketch01small.jpg

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 03:51 AM
Roberto!

Cool to see you posting! <finger drum> Yes...eggsellent...

Many props to an excellent friend :)

~Rebeccak

EDIT:
Sulla ~ WOW! Gorgeous drawing there...thank you for posting! I am a little amazed by those of you who preface their lovely works with the phrase, "I haven't drawn in ages..." ~ it will be great to see what happens when you guys PRACTICE! :)

~Rebeccak


Vooram? in Eurrrrope? quiet chuckle... ;) mad props to you!

stipick_S
07-08-2005, 04:01 AM
I go away for a few hours and miss all the drama. People flaming others and some intese crticism over what is art.


I will chime in only breifly as I think many of my posts have been a bit too long. I think the big controversy within this thread lies within differences of what exactly makes up good art and what exactly is proper (sucessfull) technical training. There is a great deal of confusion here. What is good art? This is an objective principle that depends entirely on the viewer. What is solid technical training? Good technical training depends entirely on the success of the people invovled, both teachers and students. This can be seen in the contemporary art world with the growing popularity of ateliers. Lets face it, if Rebecca's posts of her work were really bad smiley faces, would we tune in? Her success as an artist can be traced back to her origins as a student (as well as a great deal of personal exploration as well). It is clear that her expertise has been derived form superior training ( Burne Hogarth....come on he's friggin awesome) and practice habits. It is this training/knowledge that we are here seeking. Many of the principles that we are now being shown have been passed down for hundreds of years. They have been treid and tested, and have suceeded (almost to well) in producing artists of exetreme technical ability.
While the masters may not be everyones cup of tea (and that is perfectly fine, it should be this way), what they do offer is an education that can be priceless. If you know how to draw a hand, you can draw it anyway you like. Wrong or right, your work will be able to stand strong against much of the criticism all your art work will inevitably attract. You will allways be confident in knowing that your technical ability is exceptional and your conceptual prowess is even better.

Thanks for reading,
Shaun

Sulla
07-08-2005, 04:13 AM
Thanks glad you like it but when I see it I see the great work of the masters over the years and see how far I have to go. For example some of the work on http://www.artrenewal.org/. At the moment I am looking for a good local teacher and I am planning on getting serios with my studies again:)

Sulla
07-08-2005, 04:26 AM
Sorry duplicate message.

RO
07-08-2005, 05:10 AM
Sorry I know I am going a bit ahead of this whole thing, but I want to add some stuff to my portfolio and I thought a drawing to a finished state with all the steps is a good go per day :) I plan to add all these to my website in a new section. The drawings I did in figure drawing class were nice, but it is messy scanning them so I rather just redo my own figure drawing area of my port.

She is a Flamenco dancer btw. Got some basic ref on the net the pose is my own.


1) Gesture
2) Opposing Curves
3) Clothing gesture
4) Rendering shadow
5) Rendering highlights
6) Nice red flower :D

Not too happy with the leg becuase of the ankle being small on the curves version on gesture it is thicker...

http://onlinewarriors.beyondunreal.com/RandomStuff/Figure1-9.jpg

I love this thread it is giving me a mission to do some works in my free time :)

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 05:32 AM
Desp#2/Rog,

NICE. :applause:
I don't mind that you go further with your work on this thread since you've clearly followed the steps. And I am happy to be playing a part (if small) in helping you to rebuild your portolio. :)

~Rebeccak

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 06:04 AM
ashrumm,

I think you posted a lovely drawing and are quite advanced in your drawing skill ~ thank you for posting. As you are rather advanced, I am going to take this opportunity to delve a bit deeper into a review so that you and others may get something out of it. So here it is :)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/rebeccak4/CG_Talk_Anatomy_Workshop_II_OPPOSING%20CURVES/REVIEWED_SET_ashrumm_OC_2.jpg

I thoroughly enjoy the sensitivity of your line and shading ~ I think that these are both strong suits for you.

what I would recommend for you is to work on STRUCTURE ~ as line and shading cannot do without this overarching CORE PRINCIPLE.

As such, I have focused on the arm, and shown a METHOD by which you may wish to introduce more STRUCTURE into your drawing.

The Method I've outlined above is:

1. Draw Gestural / Boxy and Cylindrical Shapes for the Limbs (in this case, an arm)

2. Find the CORNERS of forms ~ where form is at its highest point, after which light is either hit by the light source or is cast into shadow by it.

3. Use these Gestural lines and Boxy and Cylindrical Shape Constructions as a GUIDE for placing OPPOSING CURVES.

This METHOD will be the basis for subsequent lessons in this thread ~ however, I find it necessary to introduce here this overarching concept of STRUCTURE here as well.

Hope this helps, and doesn't confuse! Thank you for posting your work! :)

~Rebeccak

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 06:17 AM
mystikalyx!!! 7th grade best friends!!! :scream:

Thanks for all your help AA!

~Rebeccak P2 the Revenge...

augustus
07-08-2005, 06:23 AM
Rebecca,
Thanks for reviewing my humble drawing and these precious advices.:love: Day by day, this forum becomes an art school for us uneducated noobs. Now if you excuse me, I'll go and work on those.

kaspaxl
07-08-2005, 06:33 AM
Thanks for the critique scorpion007. Your drawover does have some failures itself, but they are fewer that the valid points about my gesture/opossed curves thingy. So thanks for the effort. :thumbsup: For some reason I make legs skinny and forearms too long all the time.

And the pose, well. It is really awkward, I know. The guy was supposed to be streching the butt muscles by bringing his knee up. That is why it is so up, he is actualy pulling with the arm. Can't tell if its too up. Why is he also holding on to a pole??? Nope, he is no stripper, he simply was off balance when i drew his head, body, legs and I thought he would fall on his face if i didn't make him hold on to something. :)

Again, if anybody feels like going over my work, please do so. But, will i get lucky and get a review by a pro?? :shrug:

--kaspaxl

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 06:41 AM
creativefx aka hong,

Heya! I didn't see your original post because your text is in black, but thanks for writing! It's awesome that I get to hear from an old ACCD friend as a direct result of this thread, so thank you! ~ and I absolutely did email you, so hope to hear from you soon. Ah...LA...I do so miss the smog and traffic :).

augustus,

You're so welcome, and I appreciate your comments! :)

kaspaxl, kaspaxl...I'm getting there... :)

Zephyri
07-08-2005, 07:57 AM
In my opinion, Modernism devastated traditional art training (at least in the US, where it didn't have the strongest foundation in the first place), and for that, I really want to express my most sincere gratitude <sarcasm dripping>!:D
Oh, you have no idea how wonderful it is to hear you say that. ^.^


>If anyone should ever fancy doing a colour theory teaching thread along the same lines, that would be just amazing.
Ah, I know just the perfect person...I will contact him about running a Colour Theory thread. This is something I had considered doing...but my former professor is EXCELLENT and his knowledge goes far beyond mine...

And that has really made my day, of all the things I've ever wanted to study, it's colour theory, thank you so so much, you really are a darling!

calzoncillos
07-08-2005, 08:07 AM
Hey, Rebecca! First of all, these threads of yours are a great idea. I follow them whenever I have time, and do some practice on my own. Might post some stuff someday, if I bring my drawings home and scan them.

Anyway, I just wanted to tell you that you can read your friend's black-text post, if you try and select the text. It'll make it white and you can read it fine. :)

NEway, keep it up, everyone! And thanks, Rebecca. :)

NOOB!
07-08-2005, 10:15 AM
lol how come when i think of artist anatomy and i usaully think of men?!?!

i don't wanna be too much like mike!! if u know what i mean.lol

i prefer raphael newayz,this thread is going great,i like ur advanced crit on ashrumm rebecca.

Zarracin
07-08-2005, 10:24 AM
Thanks so much for these fantastic threads!
I had found both the lessons and the critiques extremely useful and enlightning.
I have learned more reading these posts than in some payed art classes
I'm amazed by Rebbeca's dedication to help us to improve our drawing skills.
Still a newbie, but i'll post my doddles as soon as i'm authorized
Kuddos

augustus
07-08-2005, 11:54 AM
Another one:

http://august.f2o.org/temp/curves02.jpg

Is this gesture a little bit too feminine? :curious:

:D

default-rol
07-08-2005, 12:03 PM
Wow this thread has grown!

I have been stupidly busy all week, but when I am home tonight or tomorrow I am going to get some more stuff posted. I will need to read up on whats been going on then.

Later all

NOOB!
07-08-2005, 01:11 PM
lastest curvation attempt.

heh,sorry bout the face,cudn't be bothered to draw it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/noobeene/curvation.jpg

ref: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/noobeene/BodyBuilder.jpg

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 01:14 PM
NOOB,

That is just about the funniest thing ever...what a fantastic way to start the morning! It is again in situations like these that I think, "What Would Michelangelo Do?" ~Ha! Great to see you are back in good spirits :)

~Rebeccak

NOOB!
07-08-2005, 01:48 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/noobeene/afronmusc.jpg

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 01:52 PM
NOOB,

I actually like this drawing a bit better than the first ~ do me a favor, and go back into this drawing, find and draw, clearly but elegantly, the major axes ~ the center axis of the body, the shoulder axes, the axes of the face, and draw more gestural arms.

Also ~ refine your linework ~ SLOW DOWN ~ think "DRAWING" and not "SKETCH".

Use a less opaque paintbrush and build up more elegant lines. Then re-post this if you please. ~Same thing with the previous post! And actually try on the face.

Thanks :),

~Rebeccak

NOOB!
07-08-2005, 01:57 PM
alright

but more gestural arms? how do u mean?

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 02:07 PM
See Lesson 1, GESTURE ;)

No, create simple, flowing directional lines FIRST ~ indicating only the GENERAL DIRECTION in which the limbs (in this case, arms) are going ~ this forces your arm / hand when drawing to be more loose and free ~ this is what you want before going in to add details, even general "details" like Opposing Curves. THINK: Elegance.

:)

~Rebeccak

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 02:47 PM
franzboas,

Thanks for your posts and patience ~ here is your review :)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/rebeccak4/REVIEWED_franzboas_OC_post2.jpg

I like your drawing style, but think you need to focus on the BIG PICTURE ~ GESTURE, AXES, PROPORTIONS, OPPOSING CURVES ~ before rendering final details. In the above review, I have outlined the major steps which I would recommend following to establish the BIG PICTURE FIRST ~ this, I believe, will be a major help to you in improving your drawing.

I hope this helps, and that you continue to post! :)

~Rebeccak

franzboas
07-08-2005, 03:38 PM
muchas gracias seniorita
i ll get on it. whatever anatomy i learnt i learnt from comic books. so its really great to be criti- qued by a pro.
the best part about this thread is it gives me context. i see all this great work put up , i know where i stand and i know where i need to go. complete hitchiker's guide or what.
now if i am not wrong aren't there certain guidelines that are followed in anatomy
you know the ones like:
the length from one acromion to another is the lenght of the upper body the length of the palm is the leght of the face.
please it could be cool if you could post these as well.
the reason is , apparently there are slight differences in these proportions across ethnic groups . is this true? question is open to all.

TRIANGLEKID :
HEY i hear you man . i haven t had fine art training either, i don't have a scanner at home either. man we could be long lost brothers or something. but hey you did put up good work. how long have you been sketching?

shreyas

Mirwen
07-08-2005, 03:49 PM
Rebecca:yesterday I wanted to write: "answer you" not "ask you". I am Sorry for that mistake
Just wanted to ask a queston - should we continue the discusion here or should we move to art discussion forum. I think that it is perfect to continue here, but I will do as you wish. I will answer you tonight or tomorrow, because the discussion came onto the thin ice and became very serious. You've come with great opinions (and not only you - I would like to answer more people than only one). I don't want to davastate the meaning of this forum (learning anatom). It is what I still want to do, but I think that discussion like this one go along with it. Please tell me your opinion

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 03:55 PM
franzboas,

You are most welcome! And I appreciate your participation.

With respect to "Real" Anatomy ~ we will get there. However, I will emphasize OVER and OVER again that it is not the ANATOMY which is most important, particularly for beginners, but the BASIC CONCEPTS about DRAWING: Gesture / Lay-In, Opposing Curves and more ~ which override memorizing plates from Anatomy texts in importance for learning how to draw.

Almost everyone who has posted work has basic problems in these areas, and knowing the term "Trochanter" won't fix this. Drawing is about PRACTICE of CORE CONCEPTS and the CONTINUAL REFINING of these CORE CONCEPTS OVER TIME. Anatomy gets slowly blended into the mix as students MASTER CORE CONCEPTS and are prepared to take on more difficult drawing tasks. I STRONGLY BELIEVE in this method ~ as I believe the FUNDAMENTALS are the foundation upon which the "house" must be built.

Thanks for your posts, and I hope you continue to post your work!

~Rebeccak

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 04:04 PM
Mirwen,

I think these thoughts are all very interesting, but it's kind of hard for me to go back and forth between different forums when I'm trying to keep up with this one.

For the time being, let's keep the discussion BRIEF, but on this thread, as I think it IS interesting, but I don't want to delve too deeply into this topic as it takes up space which should be dedicated to peoples' work and their reviews.

It is not that I am uninterested in the discussion ~ quite the opposite! But I just don't have time to jump around different forums right now.

But I appreciate your feedback :)

~Rebeccak

kaspaxl
07-08-2005, 06:02 PM
Okey, sorry for posting another one so early but i think this one is way better. Couldn't help it :shrug: The sketch got messy after i decided to change the legs. The opposed curves where already there (> or <) for the original gesture drawing so i had to go in and ink it. :wip: Which is not my forte, but it came out looking good. :thumbsup: The guy is stocky by design, specially in the head.

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y228/kaspaxl/warchief1.gif

Whatever is a "Tronchanter"?

--kaspaxl

seth1
07-08-2005, 06:04 PM
NOOB! Good stuff man!

Going back to study this satue some more!http://img129.echo.cx/img129/5773/curves53km.jpg

walknwitjesus
07-08-2005, 06:05 PM
I'm a newbie at posting, this is my second time doing this. I just wanted to say that I loved this lesson and when I get some free time I'll do the exercise and post my drawing. As newbie with 3d modeling this lesson has helped me get a better idea on human anatomy.

Thanks again.

RO
07-08-2005, 06:10 PM
Just some thoughts on what I have seen here.

Lots of the works here are really expressive and give a special feel behind the artist thought and style.


Something I am seeing a little bit from going through these works though is some are not doing gesture drawings to get the main forms and going directly to opposing curves.



The gesture could be very quick and even cubic depending on what you like best, look at this post for a good example.



http://cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2438164&postcount=50 (http://cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2438164&postcount=50)



See how Xillion has made two types of gestures for some of the poses with either box and cylindrical forms or the curved line forms.



Get the gesture first add a layer on top of it in PS or use a penor darker pencil to add the opposing curves. If you see a mistake in your gesture fix it in your opposing curves version. Gestures in general are for quick reference of the basic shapes. Try to get out of your gesture shapes if needed. Do not get too attached to perfection either. Try to vary the line weight with the curved lines. Make lines thicker as the lines get closer based on perspective and make lines lighter with further away forms, This is something you can go over after you did the opposing curves so do not concentrate too much on that idea. Although it is good practice because it will help understand the forms better and if you can do it on the fly while doing lines it will look smoother at the end. The line weight takes a while to get right I am still a trying to get it rightish. Hope it helps. Another small idea is to not pick up your pencil at all while doing one curved line. Do curved line with some line weight… Pick up and do another. Try to make bigger more confident lines.



Just a suggestion to start with the gesture and go on top of it with opposing curves.



Some other good examples of this are around.

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 06:21 PM
seth1,

Glad to see more posts! I think you have simplified some of your linework, which is great! However ~ simplify even MORE. Try to express each side of the torso with TWO lines only ~ this will help!

kaspaxl,

Looking good, but I like the loose gestural work under the inking FAR better than the "finished version". Drawings need to BREATHE, even if they are inked. I would take it back a notch ~ I'll post some examples of what I mean later.

Desp#2/Rog,

Great thoughts here! Thank you very much for sharing them, as I agree that people should create Gestures first, Opposing Curves second.

Xillion is indeed doing an exemplary job, and I applaud him in his efforts. He really seems to be following a set program, and I can see tremendous progress in his as well as in others' work.

Great stuff, guys! What are peoples' thoughts on how long this particular topic ~ "Opposing Curves" ~ should run? Do you guys want a new lesson on Monday, or do you want to wait a few days before beginning a new lesson?

Let me know.

Thank you! :)

~Rebeccak

pulver
07-08-2005, 06:39 PM
Ok I have two more drawings here. I didn’t have enough time to correct everything that I wanted but I put them up here before there is a new lesson out



The first guy has a big head and the other too small hands…but feel free to criticise them to:)

(the reason for that the legs has les collor is that my camera has a stuppid flash:D )

http://jocar009.thg.se/staty.jpghttp://jocar009.thg.se/guy.jpg

sources:
http://www.scalespace.org/2003/images/leopard%20man%20of%20skye.jpg
and
http://www.thais.it/scultura/image/sch00065.htm

Xillion
07-08-2005, 06:40 PM
Hi all...today I tried, for the second time in my life, to sketch from life.
I found it very difficult to do the gesture. My best efforts where done blocking out the forms looking at the shadows - to identify planes - and joints to identify the main directions. I found it difficult to catch the ever changing poses of the friend I was with. Even if I recognize it's poor this is my best effort. The model was pretty static in this one.

So...here we go (sorry for the bad images but these are photos of the sheets of paper...)
The second image is the first live drawing I did in my life...It's my brother's portrait. I did it back in 96' on a hot boring summer day...he stayed in that pose like a mummy while reading a book ;)

http://img104.imageshack.us/img104/9782/live9xs.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

http://img274.imageshack.us/img274/5052/andy3cx.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Rebeccak: I'm indeed trying to get the best out of these lessons and trying to do a comparison with other methods / books. I do have all Bourne hogarth's books (I really love his style!) though I really did not spend much practicing along with them cause, up to now, I did not understand the power of his teachings. I also have Loomis books and I found them interesting, he starts with perspective so it's a bit overwhelming at first (to get the things good) but he teaches in a very clear and organized way.The one who's really helping me is Vilppu (I never heard of him before this thread...so..thanks!). His video lessons are really cool. Seeing the progress of the concept explained is truly helpful. His process is a bit more loose on correctness of perspective so gives instant gratification. So far It's quite similar to your approach: it involves gesture,boxing, opposing curves (ovals on boxing) etc...
Though boxing is really useful for shading, I really found it useful to to grasp the gesture itself when drawing from life.
Today I learnt that it's fundamental to draw from life. I bet one day I'll be able to catch gestures on the fly...I think Delacroix once said that a true artist should be capable of doing a complete drawing in less than two minutes...and now I understand what he was speaking about...

NOOB!
07-08-2005, 06:51 PM
latest previous

i try again!!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v408/noobeene/afronmusc1.jpg

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 07:33 PM
Wow, guys, talk about instant gratification! I am thrilled that you are actually taking my suggestions, it is a real pleasure to see everyone improving!

pulver,

thank you for posting these ~ don't worry about the camera quality, I spend an endless amount of time correcting my own photos in Photoshop before posting, and still they're a little wonky ~ no worries.

Xillion,

great thoughts, thanks for sharing a bit about your learning process! It is indeed intriguing to hear your take on how you learn, as it helps others to figure things out, too. I think it takes learning different methods of Drawing from different teachers, be they peers or otherwise, to truly learn how to draw. I am still stitching together all of the various things I have learned over the years from various sources, and it is stimulating to hear that you are also wending your way through the process :), so kudos for all the hard work!

Drawing from life is indeed key, and all of the rules that seem simple enough here are put to the test when you draw before the real thing ~ the real human figure. Indeed looking for shadow shapes to identify planes is a good method to go about drawing, and I would just encourage you to draw as much and as often from life as you possibly can.

NOOB,

miles and miles better. I think you can see the difference in quality. I think you do know your stuff pretty well, but you need to focus on refining what you know and not taking it for granted. I think if, for example, you drew in the manner in which you did for your updated drawing in your linework comps for your digital paintings, you would struggle much less with the actual painting portion of the process. It's tough to figure out drawing as you are painting, as one tends to get the two processes confused, and ends up somewhat muddling along ~ and since you so clearly know how to piece together a figure, you shouldn't have to do this.

My point being: finish your drawing before you start painting, and your results will be that much better. Don't rush to the finish line and forget the original purpose.

__

And you, Lion! Courage! ;)

Great stuff, guys!

~Rebeccak

NOOB!
07-08-2005, 07:38 PM
yeh,i'm a dumbass hehe.thanks for the tips

but now that i look at the revised version,that piece of fat stickin' out his back is gettin on my nerves.do u agree it looks off?

i'm gunna continue with this pic,add legs feet etc,then i'll post it yet again,

.plus i'll do a woman,they have easier curves.

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 07:41 PM
NOOB,

now that I look at it, he does seem to have a bit of a neck and back goiter, so perhaps you could lance them and make him more comfortable ;)

...well, that's kind of gross...

Definitely draw the full figure and repost! :)

~Rebeccak

seth1
07-08-2005, 07:51 PM
Noob: Looks a bunch better...\
rebecca (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=148587): How much longer untill your site is up? I will try to simplify even more...

This counts right? Haha it has opposing curves?

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 07:55 PM
Uh...not feeling the pandas ;) at least for this thread.

HOWEVER ~ this is a great idea for a thread for the Artistic Anatomy and Figurative Art sub-forum ~ to have an "Animal Drawings" thread where people can post these!

Cool. But, yeah, no more animals for this thread, please, as we're trying hard to stay on topic :). Absolutely no offense meant :). Is this, like, a panda-rific birthday wish for NOOB?

~Rebeccak

EDIT: A good friend of mine is working on my Website, and I am hoping it will be up next week :) thanks for asking!

NOOB!
07-08-2005, 07:56 PM
thanks seth.

for the sake of being easier to follow,don't u think it would be best to keep it human at this stage? and maybe save animals for a later lesson?

but anyway,not up to me..

i think its a nice attempt,but u seem to be over using the curves theory,do u happen to have the reference u used nearby?

edit: becks beat me too it ...heh

seth1
07-08-2005, 08:11 PM
rebecca: Heh, i thought so but hey:( That sub form for animal drawings would be cool.....
Noob: I dident use a reference. Little concepts for a b-day card lol... The curves i dunno i just cant help over using them..

NOOB!
07-08-2005, 08:17 PM
Quick 3 minute sketch dont like posting with out a picture....


Its crucial u spend more time on picture before posting,its not really fair on rebecca and the rest of us that spend allota of time to crit pics.

however,the curves are a lil better on this,but its the proportions i worry about on this one.

Please spend longer,and post again,we're all willing to help!:thumbsup:

Somhairle
07-08-2005, 08:24 PM
Hi guys,

Some nice work showing up! kudos!

Just a quick tip on a personal technique that works for me when either improving scanned images or improving the quality of my photographed drawings.

Firstly, if you look at the majority of drawings that are photographed, the light source (when taking the photo without a flash) is on the right. Either try to get the image facing the light source (window) directly OR use a normal bedside lamp on the left to compensate the exposure. This will save unnecessary editing in Photoshop later.

Ok and on to my process:
1. Open your scanned image/photo.

2. If your drawing is purely black and white, then use "Desaturate" (image -> adjustments -> Desaturate)

3. you need to tell Photoshop what colour "white" is (cause computers are stupid!!), so in levels (image -> adjustments -> Levels) click on the "white point" icon (on the far right), now select a blank "white area" on the drawing (usually this will be a grey colour - depending on your light source), instantly you will see the grey background turn to white, if it is still not bright enough click a part that still has the evil grey colour, likewise if it is too bright click around the image (the blank space only) and see what you prefer. This is important in not losing the line quality of the gesture or any "faint" lines in your drawing.

4. to make the contrast of your image reflect your real drawing (ie: line colour, strength) still in "Levels" move the middle "grey" slider to make your line quality stronger without making the background any darker in the slightest. :buttrock:

Hope this helps in future efforts! :thumbsup:

- Somhairle

Spin99
07-08-2005, 08:35 PM
Xillion
I just love ballpoint sketches :)

seth1
I really like your 3 min sketches, I remember those were great fun.

Here's a "digitalist" anatomy study from a lovely RF photo.
It's been a while, but I enjoyed it so I'm posting.
Love this thread, I promise there'll be no flaming or negativity from me.

Rebeccak
07-08-2005, 08:41 PM
Spin99,

Nice one! No worries, all is cool, we all have our moments ;) ~ thanks for posting this, as it is a really nice drawing.

Probably won't be posting any more reviews until tomorrow, just for everyone's information, as even THIS CGTalk addict needs to go have a life :rolleyes: ...thanks for posting, everyone! :)

~Rebeccak

Xillion
07-08-2005, 08:42 PM
Somhairle:Considered the bad quality of my last two images I bet the message is for me :) ...so... Thanks for the advices!

Funny part: You know...I really know my photoshop - I used to do a lot of photo retouch - and also I understand a little about photography... plus... I have a scanner !!!... ^_^) what I REALLY NEED is a tip on how not to be so bored :) :) :) ... maybe it's only summer.... Sorry for the crappy photos, I promise I'll change them with better versions soon.

Somhairle
07-08-2005, 09:06 PM
@Xillion:
By no means was that aimed at you! I was looking back through the "gesture" thread and the start of this one and it seemed a good idea to give everyone advice on improving final images. it's a technique i've been playing about with and it gives me the best results (that I can control) ....I never liked those "auto ..." options. anyone got any better techniques feel free to share! we can always learn from one another.

Xillion, you've posted some nice work in your compilation image (#50)...I really like the digital but traditional brush you made. kudos! the girl in the middle/bottom reminds me of loomis' style! Nice!

- Somhairle

seth1
07-08-2005, 09:08 PM
Noob! I was not trying to go for crit on tye 3 minute picture i posted it was just a little sketch because i do not like showing nothing when i post:_)

Spin99: Thanks man.. I took them off so no one get mad.. lol

Another one charcoal this time! Spent a little more then 3 minutes:P
http://img275.echo.cx/img275/9404/curves76hp.jpg

pulver
07-08-2005, 09:37 PM
thx Somhairle! The photofix tips can be realy helpfull, I will try them out on my next drawing

jerry123
07-08-2005, 10:04 PM
as i have become quite lifeless lately too....im wondering around...

i have a question,your drawing assignments seem quite advanced,i was wondering if
there is a possibility of starting with something a little more elementry,i can never find
those,how to threads seem to always start somewhere in the middle.

i was wondering about it,since i never took a single drawing class...ever,and i found that
if a person is not properly and basically trained,it shows...
i meen,theres no problem faking it...drawing poses youre comfortable with,hiding parts you
cant figure out,avoiding prespective,or contrary-deliberately"over" prespective to avoid
correct proportions...ive managed every trick.
and somehow could get away with it...much in the same way pretty girls can get away
with being stupid...its all on the surface,and you can defenately see the art is not
proffesional.

i actually got to realise that when i got a job at this huge studio...and there where those
ppl sitting next to me...graduates from sheridan,and stuff...i actually sat next to this
old guy that painted for marvel befor that....
and i was like.."ok,ill go sit in the corner now...next to the bathroom"

ah..i guss my question is,are there any threads like this that are more basic?
and anyways,i was wondering if its actually possible to reach that level on self teaching?
i guss it works on computer stuff,but im not sure about actual art.
it always seemed to me something you should get a proper training at(its irrelevant for me
for financial reasons).
or,maybe any advices about where to start,so you can clean up and build normal basic
reasonable foundations.

thank you.

Melissa
07-08-2005, 10:07 PM
Here is my try at opposing curves. I am glad to have this thread available. i've always had trouble with line quality. i tend to move straight from gesture to smudging and "painting" with my media. Thanks for helping us all out.

edit: now that i see the two side by side and small i see that my drawing looks like shes about to fall over. lol

PotatoHead
07-08-2005, 10:58 PM
Haven't posted on CGTalk for a long, long time. Finally, after a few years and puberty, I'll post my first sketches inspired by this _excellent_ anatomy lesson and all of the exceptional sketches posted here. I used free photos from 3d.sk that I downloaded a couple of years ago.

I'm still having major problems with proportions, but here goes:
http://img116.imageshack.us/img116/7808/oc010kg.jpg
-----------------------------------
http://img125.imageshack.us/img125/4417/oc021zb.jpg

Hope they aren't too clunky. I can post thumbnails of requested.

Cheers,

Tom

Somhairle
07-08-2005, 11:37 PM
@jerry123:
I think this thread of Rebeccas is a very good starting point in learning to draw. There's a lot of people here with varying levels of abilty. You should post a drawing if you have it so that Rebecca can best advise you. But if you are *new* to life drawing, some local classes would be very benificial. At least a DVD or something would really help in the learning processes.

@Melissa:
Very nice drawing. although you're right about the balance.

It would be nice to see it with the head, hands and feet as its a very nice piece. what software are you using? (Painter?) ...the wet brush looks very realistic.

- Somhairle

CBee
07-09-2005, 01:00 AM
What are peoples' thoughts on how long this particular topic ~ "Opposing Curves" ~ should run? Do you guys want a new lesson on Monday, or do you want to wait a few days before beginning a new lesson?
Well, I'd prefer a short break. I just moved and my internet connection won't be installed until next Tues. :sad: So I'm stuck with whatever I can borrow at the moment. Besides I need to work on my proportions before I post anything else. All my drawings look like Mr. Fantastic at the moment. :D

Zhou Xiaowei
07-09-2005, 01:22 AM
i want to see more about it.
keep up the good work .

ashrumm
07-09-2005, 01:34 AM
Originally posted by Rebecca
ashrumm,

I think you posted a lovely drawing and are quite advanced in your drawing skill ~ thank you for posting. As you are rather advanced, I am going to take this opportunity to delve a bit deeper into a review so that you and others may get something out of it. So here it is :)

I'm sorry about not checking back to this thread sooner. Thank you very much for the review Rebecca, it has made my day that you liked my drawing. And about that torso drawing i'd like to think it was a bit of luck on my part. My drawing skills need alot of work I've taken a couple of figure drawing classes but i still feel it isn't enough. This thread has been a wonderful resource and i will try to get something new posted here pretty soon.

Captain Fandango
07-09-2005, 03:15 AM
I don't suppose any of you chaps could direct me to a ready source of photo references? I've already exhausted my knowledge of anatomically accurate sculpture, and nudie magazines just don't offer the same depth of stance. I would try my hand at an original composition, but I would prefer accumulate a touch more experience before venturing into such tenuous territory.

Hope to get my hands on one of those new-fangled scanner do-hickies some time soon - I could certainly use the commentary!

daspetey
07-09-2005, 05:14 AM
rebeccak,

you rock! for several reasons:

1. you are incredibly skilled and dedicated to your craft
2. you are an invaluable resource for this forum, and you have devoted a great deal of time to helping us all out with these anatomy lessons.

after i saw your drawover of stipick_S's work, i was hooked! i would pay lots of money to have that kind of service! and you are doing it for free, you crazy monkey!

anyway. thats all i wanted to say. just another praise message, with a thank you. people like you are what make this board the amazing community resource that it has become.
-pete

kunal
07-09-2005, 05:27 AM
Rebecca, I want to ask something...just to get an idea of general preference. I'll try to ask it properly but sorry if I'm unable to xplain it properly:shrug:

You always talk of building through head, finding the pit, establishing the peanut shape and then defining the gestural flowing curves for limbs and line of action.

What if the neck pit isn't in my view i.e. back view or some twisted pose. I have no problem in thinking all way around of the neck pit but for the middle line. Do the middle line has to run through an imaginary middle axis of torso or should I figure it out as the spinal cord?

Thnx

franzboas
07-09-2005, 05:59 AM
hi

a trochanter is a bony bulb on the femur. there is the distal greater trochenter and the proximal and medial lesser trochenter joined together by the inter trochanteric crest at the posterior side. both these surfaces are rough indicating that they are sites of muscle attachements.

INTERESTING FACT: the femur is the longest bone in the body.


he he he. sorry jus trying to be a smart alec. can't help it. had an entire semester on skeletal anatomy in first year.

more than nuff said,

shreyas

Melissa
07-09-2005, 06:33 AM
Somhairle:
photoshop is what i used. thanks for the comments. you're right i should have taken the time to put the hands and head in.

kaspaxl
07-09-2005, 08:30 AM
Allright franzboas, thanks for that bit of info. Got me all puzzled, hehe.

scorpion007
07-09-2005, 08:32 AM
Here's my latest one:
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/521/gestures25gh.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=gestures25gh.jpg)

Reference: http://www.abcgallery.com/M/michelangelo/michelangelo11.html

Hope you like :)

jerry123
07-09-2005, 08:47 AM
@jerry123:
I think this thread of Rebeccas is a very good starting point in learning to draw. There's a lot of people here with varying levels of abilty. You should post a drawing if you have it so that Rebecca can best advise you. But if you are *new* to life drawing, some local classes would be very benificial. At least a DVD or something would really help in the learning processes.

ok,ill post one,but it wont help my point much....

http://www.geocities.com/jerry000012003/2.jpg

well,i was more or less looking for something much more basic than that,i meen,there has
to be something much more simple befor you start drawing complex things like people
so just wanted to know what comes befor that.

HellBoy
07-09-2005, 09:47 AM
I can't believe I mist such a thread, I'll do something tonight

Xillion
07-09-2005, 09:53 AM
i have a question,your drawing assignments seem quite advanced,i was wondering if
there is a possibility of starting with something a little more elementry,

ok here's my two cents on real elementary (but not so easy...) things...

someone once told that everyone who can draw a straight line can draw.

1) So... the first exercise would be to pick up a pencil (more or less like shown in the photo) and fill up a page (better to start with an A4 sheet of paper or bigger format paper) with straight, even spaced (perfectly parallel between themselves) vertical lines. Obviously done freehand.You will be amazed that it's not so easy.

http://img83.imageshack.us/img83/1889/parco2lug20050922vw.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

1b) After that you can do the same with horizontal lines.

While doing these try also to control the width of the lines you draw keeping it constant.

2) After that you can do this kind of things: put two points on paper an try drawing a perfectly straight line between the two. Do lots until you can match the points with a single, perfect straight line (tip. learn how to use the elbow or even the shoulder to guide your movement instead of using the wrist or fingers)

3) sometimes, and this is my personal exercise, it's quite useful to learn how to eyball distances, so, pickup a ruler and measure say 1mm (or whatever basic unit of measure you use in your country) then put a series of points and try go get them exactly 1mm apart.
Check the distances with your ruler. Repeat until perfect.

3b) when you have done try to eyeball a 1cm (or whatever distance you like). put the points on paper and check the results.

3c) eyeball distances on reference photos (for example distance width of the nose in a portrait or width of the wrist on a fashion photo etc...)...eyeball, put on paper and double check.
3d) eyeball distances on real subjects (not photos of subjects) (double checking can be tricky on this one...)

3e) the same exercises - from 3 to 3d - can be done with angles but in my opinion is far more difficult.

4) Next in a row can be drawing boxes. Learn a bit about perspective, take a 2 or 3 point perspective and draw boxes...and boxes and boxes...whit straight, clean, lines (one for every side of the box)

final words: just let me know if you need more...there's plenty I can tell.

edit:
spinn99 and somhairle: thanks :D

FromanylanD
07-09-2005, 10:29 AM
What are peoples' thoughts on how long this particular topic ~ "Opposing Curves" ~ should run? Do you guys want a new lesson on Monday, or do you want to wait a few days before beginning a new lesson?

I don't think I've nailed the opposing curves idea yet, but I'd like to move on, and just continue to be mindful of it. I'm neutral on the break subject (as long as it's only a few days).

The reviews have been great! I learn just as much through your critiques of other's work.

thetrianglekid
07-09-2005, 10:54 AM
franzboas
haha, i'd hate to think what my long lost brother would be like if i had one. if he's anything like me, i'd hate him. i'm glad to see other people here w/o any formal training (makes me feel less intimidated)


anyway, i just wanted everyone, especially rebecca to know that these tutorials ARE helping. i feel that since just two weeks ago, my ability to draw figures and anatomy has SKYROCKETED. maybe it's because i never really had any clue what i was doing and now i have a little glimpse of the right path, and maybe it's because i've put so much time into practicing gestures and opposing curves because of these threads--whatever it is, i think it's working!

here's my most recent sketch for proof!!


http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a110/thetrianglekid/figure_flexing_cgtalk.jpg

haha, ignore the head, i got lazy. i feel like i've made tremendous strides from just the basic info i've learned (can't wait for the more advanced stuff + more practice) and also from just looking at rebecca's and everyone else's work has helped too. THANKS A BUNCH to everyone, especially rebecca.

jerry123
07-09-2005, 11:13 AM
Xillion :thanx,those are very useful....
and,yes,i would love to hear more,if you have any.

NOOB!
07-09-2005, 11:52 AM
a new topic on monday wud be nice!

Rebeccak
07-09-2005, 12:07 PM
Zepyhri,

I talked with the person whom I thought would be PERFECT for a color theory thread, and at the moment this person is a bit swamped...but I would be happy to post what I know, just to get things started, and then folks are welcome to contribute what they know! ~ thanks for the great suggestion! It will really contribute a lot to the new sub-forum, and is a VERY important area to learn!

calzoncillos,

thank you for your kind comments ~ they are appreciated!

Zarracin,

you're welcome, and do post more so you can post your work!

augustus,

this post is great, I really like the looseness as well as the detail, and the ankles and feet are really nice ~ good work!

default.rol,

where are you! :)

walknwitjesus,

awesome, I'm glad this thread has been useful! It's great to hear, and I hope you contribute :)

seth1,

thanks for understanding ~ pandas just aren't my area of expertise ;)

Somhairle,

thanks for sharing these Photoshop tips, these are great! I do basically a similar process for tweaking photos of drawings ~ first desaturating the image (Ctrl + Shift + U on a PC) and then usually bringing the white level adjustments over to the left as typically my images are too dark. What works best for me lighting-wise is to take the photos in the kitchen, where there is both fluorescent and tungsten lighting ~ in many cases, this gives me better results than daylight.

Sometimes in Levels, (Ctrl + L) you can hit "Auto" and this will work, but I find with Black and White drawings this doesn't work well ~ so I just end up manually tweaking the levels to get what I want.

Part of my problem is that I'm just anal about it!

Thanks for the helpful post! :)

jerry123,

PERFECT QUESTION. In fact, for the sub-forum (hopefully things will be underway early next week!) I am DEFINITELY considering having different threads for different topics aimed at different levels of artists ~ BEGINNER, INTERMEDIATE, and ADVANCED ~ or, I, II, III ~ so, for example, I would like to have a BEGINNER GESTURES' thread, an INTERMEDIATE GESTURES' thread, and an ADVANCED GESTURES' thread. And even before the Gestures thread, I would like to have a BEGINNING CONCEPTS thread, which would cover some of the great suggestions and information which Xillion provided in his awesome post.

Indeed, I think that the Fundamentals are the most important in Art, and I would like to have a place where they are discussed and demonstrated. All NOOBS, you have no more excuses for not posting!

Melissa,

LOVELY post! Keep going, and keep posting!

PotatoHead,

lol! I am happy to hear that post-puberty, you are able to post! Keep going ~ I would recommend doing something similar to what folks were doing earlier on in this thread, which I think is a wonderful exercise ~ TRACE, either with tracing paper, or in photoshop, an OLD MASTER drawing by an artist of your choice whose work exhibits OPPOSING CURVES ~ most artists' work will do so. Then, either draw another figure from some reference of your choosing, bearing in mind the principles of OPPOSING CURVES, and post your results! I think this will greatly help you to see certain flaws in your drawing ~ and let me emphasize for everyone, THERE IS NO SHAME IN TRACING AS A LEARNING TOOL! I've done it millions of times, and it HELPS.

CBee,

I think I'll be giving this thread topic a wee bit more time, say, a day or two, and then we'll move on to the next ~ I truly hope you're back online by then! Don't worry too much about the time thing, though, as once the sub-forum is up, there will be a (hopefully!) long-lasting thread dedicated to learning how to draw with OPPOSING CURVES.

ZhouXiaowei,

thank you for your input! Please post your work!

ashrumm,

you are most welcome! I am thrilled you liked the review, and I sincerely hope you continue to post more of your work! :)

Captain Fandango,

FromanylanD has provided some highly useful links, among them:

http://figuredrawings.com/figuredrawings.html

Also, see the first page of this thread, as it contains many useful links and resources:#3 (http://www.cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2436819&postcount=3)
Thanks for your post!

daspetey,

thank you very much for your comments! I really appreciate the feeback, and hope you will contribute your work! Indeed, I am a monkey on crack ;) ...well, not really...

kunal wrote,

>What if the neck pit isn't in my view i.e. back view or some twisted pose. I have no problem in thinking all way around of the neck pit but for the middle line. Do the middle line has to run through an imaginary middle axis of torso or should I figure it out as the spinal cord?

VERY GOOD QUESTION. I'm sorry I wasn't more clear. Because many posts are front-view, I've concentrated on emphasizing the pit of the neck. HOWEVER, from a back view, you need not find this major FRONT VIEW landmark. The most important thing in a BACK VIEW is the spine ~ after the head, this should be DRAWN GESTURALLY IMMEDIATELY to establish the major flow of the figure in space. Find where the head connects to the neck, and the neck as it flows into the spine. Indicate these things LOOSELY with GESTURAL LINES.

Hope this helps :)

franzboas,

Your anatomy knowledge is great! Stay tuned, you will definitely contribute valuable information!

scorpion007,

My darn computer ~ can't see your post right now, but will definitely check it out later!

jerry123,

Great post! It doesn't look like you are the super-noob you claimed to be!

MWarsame,

bring it on!

Xillion,

GREAT tips ~ please contribute in this way when the sub-forum gets up and running!

FromanylanD,

thanks for the feedback! I do appreciate it. Cool, I am going to give this topic a few more days (perhaps til Tuesday) and then this train will be moving down the track!

thetrianglekid,

WOW ~ for someone with reportedly "no formal training"? ~ Keep up the good work! I am IMPRESSED with the torso you've drawn! Mad props!
__

Thanks, all, for the GREAT posts! I will be somewhat offline today, but will be checking in later tonight ~ Keep up the great work!!

~Rebecca

Xillion
07-09-2005, 01:16 PM
Xillion :thanx,those are very useful....
and,yes,i would love to hear more,if you have any.

my brain is exploding...I'm writing this for the second time...and I slept only 4 hours this night...plus I have to study "Computer networks"...ouch...so I'm gonna go straight to the point...(hope you'd appreciate the effort)

Pure contour drawing: this exercise can be found in Betty Edwards' "Drawing on the right side of the brain" book. Find a comfortable, quiet place (a must) with no one speaking for at least half one hour. Pick up a very complex object like an ear of corn, draw it without ever looking at the paper (you will place the object on your left side and draw it on a sheet of paper placed on your right side) just follow the object contours with your eyes carefully and slowly guiding your hand with your eyes. Try not to forget any line of your subject. The IMPORTANT THING here IS DOING IT, not the result. This will enhance your coordination, the control of your body and your ability to observe.Eventually (Not in a year maybe) you will even get something that looks good ;)

the following are more about rendering than drawing itself, but I consider them pretty basic.

Tone matching: pick up a reference object ,live or photographed (better if with a flat side exposed to natural lighting) and match the tone (brightness) toning with your pencil (or every media you like). Try different kind of strokes (parallel lines, dots, crosshatch, curved lines). If you are daring (but it's really difficult, and requires experience) do it in colour.

these two are based on Bourne Hogarth's "Dynamic light and shading" (The images are taken from the book and are copyright of their author / publisher)
while doing these keep in mind that Light defines form.

Silhouettes: this is easier using a computer. start with white canvas, pick a brush and define a form by is contour (silhouette). think of it as if you were modeling it with clay. black is your clay. remove clay erasing on canvas color (white). practice first with simple geometrical shapes.

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/2965/ref0039zc.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

Minimal Light: once you have your silhouettes define their tridimensionality with simple accents of minimal light (the least amount of light hitting an object you can think of). do this on simple solid geometrical shapes. doing it on figure is more advanced, maybe rebecca will include something like this when me move on more advanced lessons.

http://img24.echo.cx/img24/6362/ref0013wq.jpg

http://img272.echo.cx/img272/568/ref0020jc.jpg

one last word... if I myself did all these exercises I'd really be much better now ;), but...as vilppu says these are tools means to an end...there are no rules and you should have fun :)

sidenote: these are a bit O.T... I'm writing them now so when se other forums are gone live we can simply cut and paste if necessary!

@Rebeccak i'd like to hear your thoughts on this ;)

Brucesusername
07-09-2005, 01:41 PM
..................................................

Brucesusername
07-09-2005, 01:44 PM
...........................................................................................

Brucesusername
07-09-2005, 01:50 PM
wow rebbecka this stuff is really useful! :) i shall read your lessons and post some of my works in v. shortly.

oh n Noob invited me from Backenwood :scream:

Somhairle
07-09-2005, 03:12 PM
Pure contour drawing: this exercise can be found in Betty Edwards' "Drawing on the right side of the brain" book. Find a comfortable, quiet place (a must) with no one speaking for at least half one hour. Pick up a very complex object like an ear of corn, draw it without ever looking at the paper (you will place the object on your left side and draw it on a sheet of paper placed on your right side) just follow the object contours with your eyes carefully and slowly guiding your hand with your eyes. Try not to forget any line of your subject. The IMPORTANT THING here IS DOING IT, not the result. This will enhance your coordination, the control of your body and your ability to observe.
Yep! Probably better known as "blind drawing". This is a definite technique everyone should practice. It feels so strange at first, but the rewards are for a lifetime!

Just to add a little to this...try to imagine your pencil is actually touching the models forms, as this also helps to give your line better sensitivity. Try to in one continuous line without taking your pencil/medium off the page....if you do it’s very easy to get lost and frustrated and give up early on the technique.

Like in the first example below, practice drawing basic geometric objects (pencils in a jar, etc) ... and then try drawing your pencil-free hand a few times.

Some good web examples:
http://www.seas.upenn.edu/~lang2/drawingI/blindbottle.html
http://www.flashpointmag.com/smlblind.htm
http://www.art-hutchins.com/blind.htm
http://www.flashpointmag.com/cxnud78.htm

DrakeX
07-09-2005, 05:00 PM
Moved to a separate thread.

RO
07-09-2005, 08:11 PM
Xillion very good tips. These are done in most art schools but for those that do not have formal traning at all these will help.

Mirwen
07-09-2005, 08:28 PM
Ok, here is my update:
http://www.m72.wz.cz/anatomie/a002.jpg
Hmm.. I guess that the one I did a few days ago was better :sad: Well I may know something about what is art, but It doesn't mean that I can draw:) Everybody, please feel free to make some critique on these.

Rebecca: "keep Brief" means "keep short" or means "to stop at this moment"?

Xillion: You are a great teacher!:) You brother reminds me my own brother heh in that drawing...

Zhou Xiaowei
07-10-2005, 03:28 AM
i want to post my work .but i don't know how to post it.i am a chinese so i can't understand some english words.i want to read some articles before i post my work.hehe~~

thetrianglekid
07-10-2005, 05:15 AM
i want to post my work .but i don't know how to post it.i am a chinese so i can't understand some english words.i want to read some articles before i post my work.hehe~~

xiaowei, wo hui shuo zhong wen. ni yo shen me wen ti? wo ke yi bang ni.

Happy Trees
07-10-2005, 05:52 AM
Well I'm back from the beach and I managed to fill up my sketchbook mostly drawings from the last asignment but a good amount focuses on oposing curves.
Thanks for giving me a heads up on this Rebecca.

I'l try to post my things tomorrow night and I hope its not to late to recieve crits and otherwise.

Its 2 in the morning right now and my computer is virused to hell so I'l try to post something tomorrow after I get things straightened out.

Good night all and thanks for the thread I wouldnt be drawing as much if it wasnt for this.

Zhou Xiaowei
07-10-2005, 08:22 AM
thank you very much.
nice to meet you !
OK~!!!

Brucesusername
07-10-2005, 01:39 PM
http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/smile.gif http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/natbruce3/betteranat.jpg

like wicked im getting fanstastically better, but theres so many flaws and room for improvement.

NOOB!
07-10-2005, 02:37 PM
proportions seems like the issue for u.

Sulla
07-10-2005, 03:28 PM
Is any one interested in learning more about how to do the sketches other ways than pencil or computer? I am doing more research on the traditional chalk and conte sketches etc. If you would like the links and info I find to add to the reference for the anatomy threads. For example
http://www.art.net/Studios/visual/Rebecca/OnPrudon1.html has a detailed
step by step guide using black and white chalk on blue paper just let me know.

default-rol
07-10-2005, 04:30 PM
Tried this....failed. The end.

I wont let it beat me tho.:scream: Will try again tomorrow or later tonight. His position is driving me nuts!

4B pencil - adjusted the levels slightly in PS.

http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/6940/submission1up.jpg

AndyDay
07-10-2005, 04:30 PM
Hi everyone,

This is my second drawing for this lesson. The pose is a bit weird. Since I don't have a live model to work with, I went out and bought a yoga magazine full of pictures of people practicing Yoga in all kinds of interesting poses. I included the reference pic, which I'm sure has some kind of copyright on it, so if it needs to be removed just let me know and I'll remove it.

Also, if anyone wants to do a drawover of any of my work, you're welcome to it!

default-rol
07-10-2005, 07:01 PM
Hey Andy

Was inspired by your reference pic. Didn't do a re-draw - more just had a go at it myself :scream:. I figured that any man who can do that deserves more than one drawing in his honour, I mean look where the guys right heel is - OUCH!

Your drawing is cool btw, just try to "ground" him more - I know its something I struggle with, (amongst many other things....)

I think I made my man a bit too muscular/fat in the torso, also his left thigh is too short and doesn't have much form. What do you think? (generic question open to all for feedback :).)

MIKE

http://img134.imageshack.us/img134/1309/yogabloke1gq.jpg

Michiel t.B.
07-10-2005, 07:12 PM
Wow, default.rol! Those works of you, they look really really good! Also, the guiding lines you've drawn in both the ones you posted really give away the reason why they're proportionately so good! Very very good work, they look really nice to see.

Well that's how I think about it, the accuracy anatomy-wise isn't mine to judge, since I'm not that far yet.

btw. AndyDay, thumbs up for your work too!

default-rol
07-10-2005, 08:00 PM
Hi Michiel

Thanks for the feedback! I got a post on page 6 too if you want a look:scream:.

Like other people on this forum - I still got loads and loads to learn from the "big guns" on here. I am sure we will all get better as we go on....

EDIT:

Thx to Rebecca for telling me about the "Albinus on Anatomy" book. Got a copy of it from amazon. Really good (as she said.) After reading it and looking through the million anatomical plates I kind of got to thinking that I should cancel my MA course in Computer Games Art I will be starting in October, and carve out a new career in surgery or something! Good money I do believe :D.

bedlam
07-10-2005, 08:40 PM
Hi everybody!, got myself an old wacom Intous a couple of days ago. mostly I bought it for Zbrush but I think "traditional"(2d) drawing is quite essential for all artwork. I used a ref for the one to the right and the other one is from my head somewhere.. :)
I gotta make a biiig bow for Rebecca and all the hard work she puts in to lecture us!, it´s really admirable.
wellwell, here´s my pics then...

Happy Trees
07-10-2005, 09:47 PM
Well Im back from the beach here are some sketches. http://myfilestash.com/userfiles/MagicRubber/Beach%20Sketches.jpg

These are a few of the ones I did but the last one I wasnt very happy with so here is a rework I did in painter.

http://myfilestash.com/userfiles/MagicRubber/Oposing%20Curves%203%20Reworked.jpg.JPG

Feel free to rework my rework and any crits would be helpfull.

I think I might be actualy improving.

Thanks all

And as allways props to rebecca I hope she finds this.

Brucesusername
07-10-2005, 10:01 PM
wow you did't use a reference for the last pic! its amazing

i created another picture using rebbecas opposing curve rule.......

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/natbruce3/nekkid.jpg

Dark3D
07-10-2005, 10:09 PM
Hi! Here is my female study, hope I did it right!

http://www.dark3d.com/Gallery/images/page_Figure2.jpg

phospt
07-11-2005, 12:27 AM
Alright Rebecca. This is Great, Thankyou. Brings me back to where I need to be. I look forward to posting some work. :bounce:

Rebeccak
07-11-2005, 12:30 AM
Hello everyone :)

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank CGTalk for making this sub-forum a reality ~ specifically I would like to thank Mark Snoswell, Andrew Plumer, Leigh A. van der Byl, and Roberto Ortiz for supporting me in this effort and for handing me this amazing opportunity and responsibility. I am thrilled to have been entrusted with the privilege of moderating this sub-forum along with my friend Roberto Ortiz, who has given me great support and encouragement in my artistic endeavors ~ to him I owe much of the credit for making first the Anatomy Review threads and now the Artistic Anatomy and Figurative Art (http://www.cgtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=177) sub-forum a reality.

Additionally, I would like to personally thank everyone who has visited and contributed to the first two Artistic Anatomy Review threads for making these threads an amazing success ~ I have thoroughly enjoyed reading and viewing everyones' posts, and it has been a great pleasure to interact with this growing community of both new and experienced artists alike ~ thank you for all of your wonderful posts! :)

My vision for the Artistic Anatomy and Figurative Art (http://www.cgtalk.com/forumdisplay.php?f=177) sub-forum is the following:

1. I want both new / beginning artists and experienced / professional artists alike to feel welcome and comfortable posting their comments and work on any of the threads which are offered in this sub-forum.

2. I want all kinds of artists in ANY MEDIUM in 2D / 3D ~ be they concept artists, creature designers, storyboard artists, or fine artists ~ to feel welcome and comfortable participating in any of the threads which are offered in this sub-forum.

3. I want people to treat others with RESPECT, and offer critique which is CONSTRUCTIVE and POSITIVELY SUPPORTIVE.

4. I want people to post their BEST WORK, and to continue to post their work as they IMPROVE.

5. I want people to use this sub-forum as a RESOURCE to which they both contribute ~ by posting their work, tutorials, links, etc.) ~ and use constructively to improve their own work.

6. I want people in this sub-forum to consider themselves an ARTISTIC COMMUNITY, from which they get out as much as they put in. INDIVIDUALS' CONTRIBUTIONS are ESSENTIAL and VITAL to this sub-forum.

THANKS TO EVERYONE for stopping by and posting, and I look forward to participating in this wonderful online artistic community! :)

~Rebeccak

stipick_S
07-11-2005, 04:09 AM
This forum seems to keep filling up faster and faster. I go away for 2 days and come back to find that more and more people joining up. I konw I have said this before and I am being a bit redundant, but this is just amazing. It is easy to see that the quality of the thread is in direct proportion to it posts ( t=iqa....thread size=publc interestXqualityXauthors ability) call me a big geek but I think that is an appropriate eqaution to expalin such wonderfull success (that is well deserved). Another compliment to Rebecca... you're the best!

I do have a couple of questions for you. I have gone back over the thread to make sure I am not asking a question that has been allready asked and while i do beleive I am not, it is possible I ovelooked some detail. Please correct me if i am worng.

It seems to me that to really undertsand the full concept of opposing curves one does need a strong understanding of anatomy. What curves over lap what curves? How and when do you make a judgement call on this?
I understand that by using curves in a such a manner you are creating depth. Forms overlapping other forms as they progress forward or backwards in space. Makes perfect sense or so one would think.
The problems I am currently running into with this technique lie in the fact that it is extremely difficult for me to weed out what is unimportant detail and what is important. Many times while viewing the figure i see many bumps and dips, all of which could be expressed in opposing curves. What is an important form and what is not?

This seems to be a very common problem throughout this thread and I beleiive only 2 people (yourself included) seem to have a rock solid understanding of what is indeed important and what is not. Any sugestions for simplification of forms?

Shaun

totochi1231
07-11-2005, 04:23 AM
Hi, rebeccak. this is Hung-Chi, from Taiwan. This thread is awesome. I hope I can catch up ur with ur course and getting better. Thx~http://www.vfs.com/~fd10hungchi/totochi_01

kunal
07-11-2005, 04:25 AM
Thanks a lot Rebecca:)

Rebeccak
07-11-2005, 04:39 AM
stipick_S wrote:

It seems to me that to really undertsand the full concept of opposing curves one does need a strong understanding of anatomy. What curves over lap what curves? How and when do you make a judgement call on this?

True in one way, untrue in another.

When I was in school, I learned different drawing methods simultaneously, and, I admit, due to the nature of this thread, I cannot provide every bit of information which is necessary to understand the human form simultaneously.

HOWEVER ~ I STRONGLY believe in the concept of starting out with BASIC, SIMPLE concepts before delving into REAL ANATOMY. Even if you feel that your and others' understanding of overlapping curves is not perfect at this point, I believe that Drawing is a continual, overlapping process in which one will come back to the same concepts over and over again rather like a point on a spiral which returns to the same point in the Y plane, but not the X plane ~ in other words, you come back to the same point with different and deeper knowledge.

...it is extremely difficult for me to weed out what is unimportant detail and what is important. What is an important form and what is not?

I understand, and it is normal (and even necessary) for one to draw in the way in which they are at first comfortable, and then LEARN, through processes such as these, how to SEE in a different way. As these lessons progress, this will be addressed, but we have to take one step at a time!

People who are learning to draw want and expect immediate results (I did) and it is easy to get frustrated if seemingly "easy" concepts turn out to be more difficult than they appeared. I cannot teach in 2 week-long lessons how to draw! It is a process which takes years, and these exercises and critiques which I am providing are for many just the beginning of a process that will be frustrating and rewarding in equal measure. The key is PATIENCE and PRACTICE.

Any sugestions for simplification of forms?

I want to cover / address Opposing Curves in more depth in the next lesson to be posted later this week.

A few quick suggestions for the time being:

1. Express the head with a circle, and the neck with two gestural lines.

2. Try to express each side of the TORSO in no more than 2-3 sweeping lines.

3. Try to express each arm with no more than 8 lines.

4. Try to express each leg with no more than 10 lines.

Hope this helps, but I DO understand the question ~ and will, of course, be addressing a lot more about Drawing through these lessons! Patience :)

default-rol
07-11-2005, 08:27 AM
Wow Dark3D! I love that image.

commodore
07-11-2005, 09:19 AM
http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/9085/opposingcurves12kx.jpg
The best I could do with a wacom. I got the reference from www.fineart.sk.

Zarracin
07-11-2005, 10:08 AM
My first sketch...from a local´s paper pic.
Fine point markers. about 15 minutes i guess (i lose track of the time when drawing)
(sorry for the quality of the pic : i have my scanner broken so i took it with my cell phone)

Zarracin
07-11-2005, 10:20 AM
My first sketch...from a local´s paper pic.

Fine point markers. about 15 minutes i guess (i lose track of the time when drawing)
(sorry for the quality of the pic : i have my scanner broken so i took it with my cell phone)capoeira.jpg

Zarracin
07-11-2005, 10:35 AM
another sketch... this one from a phography book
jz1.jpg

Rebeccak
07-11-2005, 11:00 AM
Guys,

My apologies for not yet posting more reviews...I was away for the weekend, and thought I would have internet connection, but unfortunately only had connection over a 56K modem in the boonies :) ~ suffice it to say I suffered from withdrawal ~ but I should have new reviews posted soon.

Additionally, I should be posting more thread topics this week, so stay tuned!

Thanks to everyone for the new posts, these are great! It's cool to see more and more new people, as well as "vets" ;) who return to post new work!!!

Thanks to everyone for participating in the new forum!!! :)

~Rebeccak

stipick_S
07-11-2005, 12:42 PM
Thanks rebecca, your comments as allways are very helpfull. Please understand, I do not expect to be proficient in drawing the human figure right away. I expect hours of frustration and some lows and highs as well. I appreciate your time and your efforts to answer my questions. Thanks....

Shaun

Rebeccak
07-11-2005, 12:55 PM
stipick_S,

Oh, no worries! I think you've contributed a lot to this thread-now-forum, and I sincerely hope you continue to do so! I look forward to your posts ~ both comments and work!

Thanks, :)

~Rebeccak

NoirQ
07-11-2005, 03:30 PM
http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a202/NoirQ/lesson2-collage3.jpg

huzzah, keep the crowd amused! :D
the bottom one is like, dire, but bleh, it was on my piece of paper, so left it on :)

Glad to see you got the forum up and going, some great threads are being started :) Hope everyone keeps up the great work, there's been some aweomse pictures posted!

I may have by no means even come close to cracking this, but i was wondering, do you know when the next lesson will be? :)

Good work everyone.

Rebeccak
07-11-2005, 03:33 PM
Guys,

I will be posting the NEW LESSON along with my last reviews for THIS lesson in a few days.

Thanks for your continued posts, and patience as I get the new sub-forum set up.

Thanks all for your contributions! :)

~Rebeccak

stipick_S
07-11-2005, 04:27 PM
so you say "no worries" too... huh? I learned that saying from some irish fellows while I was away at "band camp". I used to teach drum corps and was an asst. band director/ band director for a couple of years. Its an excellenst saying, makes your cares just go away. Great for those days when your drawings just are not going quite right! "No worries...Ill get it next time".
LOVE IT!!!
YOU CAN DOOOO IT!!

I love this thread and all the members who make it so much fun!


Zarracin (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=181677) - I would love to see a better qaulity scan of the woman. That drawing looks fantastic and I would hate to miss out on your amazing abilities due to the limited qaulity of your scan.

Thanks,
Shauin

AndyDay
07-11-2005, 06:37 PM
Default.rol - Thanks for the comments, it's always cool to see someone else's work, especially if it's from the same reference. I feel that your drawing has some strengths that mine really lacks. For example, you did a much better job of splaying the elbows out. In mine, the upper arms are almost perfectly parallel. Yours gives a better sense that one elbow is coming toward the camera while the other is farther away (I think it's called foreshortening?).

Also, I think the central axis you worked from is more accurate than mine. I say that because of the way the hips and buttocks connect to the torso. It just looks much more accurate on yours.

The area that looks off to me is the lower trunk of your figure. Basically the area from the bottom of the ribcage to the waist looks like it's a little out of proportion.

And the area where I think we both went wrong is the "pit" between where the clavicles almost meet at the top of the chest. I don't think either drawing does a very good job of showing how the head connects to the body, maybe because in this drawing the neck is unusually curved and also obscured by the left shoulder.

So that's my 2 cents. I hope it's useful, but like most people on this forum, these last two lessons are the only real training I've got, so I'm no expert.

I liked your drawing of Michalangelo BTW. I don't have any advice to give you about how to nail that hand that you were having problems with, except to say that when I did a google search, every pic that I came across was from the viewers eye level, which is much lower than the perspective in your drawing. If you take another crack at it, maybe try drawing from a lower angle.


Lastly, I'd like to share a technique that I find helpful sometimes when doing the gesture drawings, and may be helpful to some of you as well. Once I've roughly drawn in a head and all of the axes of the body, I draw circles of varying sizes (very lightly!) to denote exactly where the major joints (shoulders, hips, knees, elbows) are on the axes. The sizes of the circles gives me an immediate sense of where the joints are along the Z axis (depth). This helps me to understand how the figure is in 3D space as I proceed to draw.

Hope this helps!

WyattHarris
07-11-2005, 06:42 PM
Desp#2/Rog: I really enjoy your progression pictures. From gesture to final, very well done.

PixelFloss
07-11-2005, 06:47 PM
Hi Rebecca and gang.

This is my sketch for the OC lesson. I could squeeze time only for this one between kids, school and other stuff asking for my attention.

I used a DAZ figure for posing with Studio, i hope it's a valid reference. If not i'll redo the sketch.
Here it is:

http://users.koz.sch.gr/atsiozos/curvesWIP.JPG

Painter Classic

Glad to hear your critique.

~thanos~

RO
07-11-2005, 06:51 PM
Desp#2/Rog: I really enjoy your progression pictures. From gesture to final, very well done.

Thanks http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Rebeccak
07-11-2005, 06:55 PM
PixelFloss,

Looks like great reference to me!

Thank you for your post! :)

~Rebeccak

NOOB!
07-11-2005, 07:26 PM
rebecca,i dunno where the hell to start in the forum,jus checkin in.

hello!.

default-rol
07-11-2005, 07:38 PM
A big "thank you" to AndyDay for giving me some useful tips. It was much appreciated.

MIKE

stipick_S
07-11-2005, 07:46 PM
good stuff pixel floss. I could see where a program such as poser or similar could come in very handy while doing the exercises. good idea!

Dont be afraid to finish off the left foot. I think many of us disregard the digits on our hands and feet out of fear of complexity. keep up the good work

Shaun

solarundies
07-12-2005, 01:51 AM
Finally here are my attempts. Done with photo reference.

http://members.cox.net/js_transport/ranatomy2.jpg

http://members.cox.net/js_transport/ranatomy2-2.jpg

Hope I'm not too late!

Dementist
07-12-2005, 03:00 AM
http://mbnet.fi/zenbie/uploaded/anatomy002-1.jpg

I just had to get something in for this lesson, so I did these quickies. Methinks my charcoal stick is a bit too thick for small drawings.

As this is a classroom environment, crits are welcome!

PixelFloss
07-12-2005, 05:06 AM
good stuff pixel floss. I could see where a program such as poser or similar could come in very handy while doing the exercises. good idea!

Dont be afraid to finish off the left foot. I think many of us disregard the digits on our hands and feet out of fear of complexity. keep up the good work

Shaun

Thanks stipick_S.
I use the free DAZ Studio and the (also free) Victoria model.

I'll get down to the foot asap :)

stipick_S
07-12-2005, 12:42 PM
PIXELFLOSS- have fun!

SOLARUNDIEs- I like your use of opposing curves too. I assume you used PS or PAINTER, to do your sketches. I think that is a really good idea and alot of people have been doing it successfully. I would enjoy seeing more of the appendages, but that is a minor crit (if one at all really).


Thanks for reading this,
Shaun

solarundies
07-12-2005, 01:12 PM
stipick_S: Actually, that's just paper, pencil, and a scanner. And thanks for the comment!

stipick_S
07-12-2005, 02:49 PM
SOLOARUNDIES- I am so sorry!! I am mortified...
Your ability to control your pencil pressure is really good then.

franzboas
07-12-2005, 04:44 PM
hey

long time no posts. sorry well following are two attempts . personally i think they are both bad.

TRIANGLE KID
is there something else you don;t have foraml training in like fixing holes in ceilings... you know the one my head made when i hit the roof after seeing your second sketch.

rebecka
knoweldge of anatomy good because of an entire semester and love to play on skulls with femurs.

on serious note i love the peanut shape torso idea, its fantastic.
i ll be over in the anatomy forum if you need me.
shreays

WyattHarris
07-12-2005, 05:40 PM
Dont be afraid to finish off the left foot. I think many of us disregard the digits on our hands and feet out of fear of complexity.

That's because drawing hands is from the devil. :scream: It's no wonder Burne Hagarth has an entire book on nothing but hands (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0823013685/qid=1121189937/sr=8-6/ref=pd_bbs_ur_6/104-0279792-3017523?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). It's a very good one too.

NOOB!
07-12-2005, 08:39 PM
That's because drawing hands is from the devil.


hahaha,nicely put.

PixelFloss
07-12-2005, 10:28 PM
hehe, WyattHarris

here are some hands i did. The upper two I used the pen tool and they didn't come out nice. The lower two are with the pencil tool. No references used (but probably i should).


http://users.koz.sch.gr/atsiozos/hands.JPG

(Painter Classic)

Critiques welcome :)

Rebeccak
07-13-2005, 04:15 AM
Guys,

Sorry for the delay, but finally, here is another review...

thetrianglekid,

you have since posted more impressive work elsewhere in this forum, but this is one of your earlier pieces which I decided to critique. Hope this still proves useful :)

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/rebeccak4/CG_Talk_Anatomy_Workshop_II_OPPOSING%20CURVES/REVIEWED_SET_thetrianglekid.jpg

I would not say that you have the same problem now in the current work which you have been posting, but in this earlier piece there were just a few areas where form was becoming a bit flattened out ~ this is a problem which is easily fixed by EXAGGERATING CURVES and COMPLETING FORMS ~ in many case, CIRCLES / SPHERES ~ in order to express form.

Mainly, however, I am impressed that you are improving at such a rapid pace, and that you have had little formal training. So, I am curious as to how you picked up drawing ~ and picked it up well, I might add ~ without formal instruction :).

Thanks for your posts, and I am encouraged to see that you are continually improving!

Keep up the great work!

~Rebeccak

thetrianglekid
07-13-2005, 06:52 AM
awesome awesome

THANKS again rebecca.

i've right clicked and saved each one of those pics, going to try and fix these problems in my future work. i'm learning so much. it's been like a 3 week figure drawing explosion in my brain. i'm so glad this sub-forum is up now. it's one of two i actively look at (and the only one i really participate in) here at cgtalk! i hope it continues to grow and see more and more work.

as for myself, i used to draw as a kid when i got bored. (disney characters, copies of dr. seuss' animal things, video game characters... basically anything that had lines on the outside of it or was holding a sword) i live in ohio, so that was a lot of boredom. :D my mom is a naturally great artist, never having any real training either. she just has a good sense of what things look like. we're chinese, and she'd studied chinese calligraphy briefly, i think that may have had something to do with it. a lot of chinese characters demand attention to proportion, stroke, etc.

my dad's a college professor and he literally can't draw a simple box or a cylinder and has the worst chinese calligraphy i've ever seen. he wrote a note to me once telling me to pick him up somewhere and left it on the fridge and i had NO idea what it said so he never got picked up. he's still there, i think. haha.

he didn't really approve of art completely, so it never became more than a sideline hobby for me and he'd never let me get cool pencils/pens/markers/paper. most of my drawings were just normal pencil drawings on already-used computer paper that had my dad's students' essays and school work on the back.

prior to these past 3 or 4 weeks, i hadn't drawn for like a year and a half because of school, but after finding cgtalk and seeing the first anatomy review thread, i couldn't help myself. i think whenever i even get a little tidbit of good instruction, my mind is just ready to pounce on it and eat it up. that's why i'm so happy this place is here!

ok, enough ranting. thanks again, rebecca!! back to work for me!

franzboas
07-13-2005, 03:08 PM
awesome awesome

THANKS again rebecca.

i've right clicked and saved each one of those pics, going to try and fix these problems in my future work. i'm learning so much. it's been like a 3 week figure drawing explosion in my brain. i'm so glad this sub-forum is up now. it's one of two i actively look at (and the only one i really participate in) here at cgtalk! i hope it continues to grow and see more and more work.

as for myself, i used to draw as a kid when i got bored. (disney characters, copies of dr. seuss' animal things, video game characters... basically anything that had lines on the outside of it or was holding a sword) i live in ohio, so that was a lot of boredom. :D my mom is a naturally great artist, never having any real training either. she just has a good sense of what things look like. we're chinese, and she'd studied chinese calligraphy briefly, i think that may have had something to do with it. a lot of chinese characters demand attention to proportion, stroke, etc.

my dad's a college professor and he literally can't draw a simple box or a cylinder and has the worst chinese calligraphy i've ever seen. he wrote a note to me once telling me to pick him up somewhere and left it on the fridge and i had NO idea what it said so he never got picked up. he's still there, i think. haha.

he didn't really approve of art completely, so it never became more than a sideline hobby for me and he'd never let me get cool pencils/pens/markers/paper. most of my drawings were just normal pencil drawings on already-used computer paper that had my dad's students' essays and school work on the back.

prior to these past 3 or 4 weeks, i hadn't drawn for like a year and a half because of school, but after finding cgtalk and seeing the first anatomy review thread, i couldn't help myself. i think whenever i even get a little tidbit of good instruction, my mind is just ready to pounce on it and eat it up. that's why i'm so happy this place is here!

ok, enough ranting. thanks again, rebecca!! back to work for me!



what he said. i have a same story. but my mom 's not an artist.
ok here s two more from me. i think i got it right the second time aroun
http://img319.echo.cx/img319/6043/shreyas20ep.th.jpg (http://img319.echo.cx/my.php?image=shreyas20ep.jpg)


http://img319.echo.cx/img319/9364/shreyas12bq.jpg.
shreyas

Rebeccak
07-13-2005, 03:12 PM
franzboas,

Nice drawing! Would you mind terribly shrinking the size, preferably so that the image has a width of 600 pixels x its appropriate length and reposting?

Thank you :)

~Rebeccak

sphere
07-13-2005, 11:12 PM
Wow, I go away for a week and there's a new sub-forum and all these new threads! I feel like I missed so much.

Rebeccak
07-13-2005, 11:41 PM
sphere,

Glad to see you back! Nah, actually, the Opposing Curves Lesson has been stalled because I've been so busy setting the sub-forum up ~ so please browse the new threads and take in all the cool new work! But Lesson-wise, you needn't worry about being behind :).

~Rebeccak

Rebeccak
07-14-2005, 04:42 AM
Hello, Everyone,

I would just like to thank everyone for participating in LESSON 002: OPPOSING CURVES and for contributing so much in terms of your posts to this thread. I appreciate the fact that so many of you braved criticism and posted your work for the viewing pleasure of all ~ thank you! :)

Having said that, I would like to post several drawings which I think were exceptional.

Here they are, in no particular order: :)

SET 1: Excellent work, guys!

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/rebeccak4/CG_Talk_Anatomy_Workshop_II_OPPOSING%20CURVES/OC_DRAWINGS-OF-THE-WEEK_1new.jpg

Rebeccak
07-14-2005, 04:43 AM
SET 2: Excellent work, guys!


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/rebeccak4/CG_Talk_Anatomy_Workshop_II_OPPOSING%20CURVES/OC_DRAWINGS-OF-THE-WEEK_2.jpg

Rebeccak
07-14-2005, 04:44 AM
SET 3: Excellent work, guys!


http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a35/rebeccak4/CG_Talk_Anatomy_Workshop_II_OPPOSING%20CURVES/OC_DRAWINGS-OF-THE-WEEK_3.jpg

Thanks to EVERYONE who posted! I greatly enjoyed seeing everyone's work, and look forward to more in Lesson 3! :)

~Rebeccak

Rebeccak
07-14-2005, 04:58 AM
Guys,

LESSON 002:OPPOSING CURVES is now CLOSED FOR POSTING. Anyone is free to peruse through the thread, however, at their leisure :).

LESSON 003 will be starting shortly ~ stay tuned! :)

THANK YOU TO EVERYONE FOR YOUR OUTSTANDING PARTICIPATION!!! You made this Lesson a great success and it was a great thrill for me to see your work and your progress :thumbsup:.

Hope to see everyone for LESSON 003! :)

~Rebeccak

purewine
07-18-2005, 03:48 AM
I am chinese it was quit deferent from my academy of find arts . my professor usualy told us use strainge line creat form. but I think you method is quit good for skecthing.

Rebeccak
07-18-2005, 01:27 PM
purewine,

Thank you for your comments. :) I hope you will post your work in the current Lesson:
REBECCA KIMMEL'S Anatomy Review 003 (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=259291).

Hope to see you there. :)

~Rebeccak

RobertoOrtiz
08-18-2005, 06:37 PM
Boink! Moved up!

SublimeOne
08-19-2005, 07:17 AM
Love your style Rebecca. Nice movement. Twice as compelling when you blur your vision.

Rebeccak
01-23-2006, 05:14 AM
SPECIAL NOTE - posted 1/23/06:

SINCE THIS IS LARGELY A CLOSED THREAD, FOR THOSE INTERESTED IN FURTHER EXPLORING BASIC DRAWING CONCEPTS, PLEASE SEE THE FOLLOWING (ACTIVE) THREAD:

Here we explore the Concept of Gesture ~ anyone is free to join in! :)

Beginners' Lounge (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=297229)
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=297229

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