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rob-beddall
07-04-2005, 12:58 PM
hey!!
here is a model i am working on at the minute.
eventually he will be a zombie but for now i'm just modelling him as a normal person as most of the zombie stuff will be in the texture map.
so far i face a half finished face. but all comments are welcome.

so....can any one see any major problems with it yet?

cheers!!

rob-beddall
07-04-2005, 02:44 PM
hey!!

just a quick update.
c'mon guys....don't be shy.

cheers!!

jOBe
07-04-2005, 03:16 PM
well i like the topology of the face. its hard to crit on it thou' since you didnt post any concept or reference 'where' you want to go with that face. Its a solid mesh, but i'd recomment to at least make a scribble of how the zombie shall look like later on, because if you want to, for example, make pieces of his face rotten so the teeth can be seen through the skin and such you'll have to include such things in your loop setup.

rob-beddall
07-04-2005, 06:07 PM
hey!!

dunno if i would be allowed to post the concept as it's not mine.
it's for a test to try and get a job on a mod team and i dunno if they have releases their concepts.
here is a quick update showing the mesh a little better.

cheers!!

AdamAtomic
07-04-2005, 06:30 PM
this is looking very good so far, i think this is some of your best topology, nice work! I take it he will be a more, erm, "fresh" zombie? or will you be adding some assymetrical geometry to the face? keep it up!

Dragot
07-04-2005, 06:36 PM
Hey it's Rob's Zombie

rob-beddall
07-04-2005, 06:37 PM
hey!!

thanks. yeah he will be more of a fresh zombie.
more along the lines of the zombies in Dawn of the dead, than rotting zombie.

just had a look at your portfolio. i love the 22 poly handgrenade. classic.

cheers!!

rob-beddall
07-04-2005, 06:39 PM
Hey it's Rob's Zombie


yes. well done :) hehe

cheers!!

rob-beddall
07-05-2005, 07:47 AM
hey!!

just another quick update.
the body area is just roughed out and needs refining and optimising.
next the legs
cheers!!

rob-beddall
07-05-2005, 12:14 PM
hey!!
another quick update.
just need to sort the flow lines out and do the feet. then add the detail to specific places.

what is the general concensus on flow lines?
i decompiled some of the HL2 models and they look really crap.
just like big blocks of squares. hardly any flow lines at all.
but i was always told that flowlines are majorly important.

what are your opinions on this?

cheers!!

S. J. Tubbrit
07-05-2005, 12:59 PM
Flow lines / Edge Loops (whatever you want to call them) are important for animation, probably less so in low-poly work, for example, is your face going to animate ? yes, then you have edge loops defined around your mouth and eyes for that, if not, why waste time defining those structures, when you could utilise the polys elsewhere, to some extent there will always be some sort of edge loop type structure about the face, it just a solution that works really well, even if it's only used to just define the facial areas. You have edges in the correct places for the elbows, wrists, and knees so that they would animate correctly, you've considered edge flow here probably without realising, i.e. you know the edges are needed for animation, so you build them in, it's a standard 'given' meshflow organisational structure.

However, I think you may have have problems with the body jacket, where it meets the shoulders, or rather lies on top of the shoulders, unless animation doesn't require arms to go higher than shoulder level, or you risk collapsing all that geometry. It's a fairly gridified mesh and so works well, imo, although you could optimise many areas, although it doesn't look so far your at the stage of optimisation as yet.

How many polys do you have to play with ?

rob-beddall
07-05-2005, 01:09 PM
hey!!

the poly limit is 3000 (tri's)

are you saying it is good to have a mesh that looks like a grid?
i was always taught that if it looks like a chess board then it's bad.
and that was from some one who has the same job as you ( lead artist).
you are right about the shoulders.
i was following the reference and not putting much thought into how it will deform yet.
until i looked at the HL2 models.
areas i'm concernd about are the crotch area mainly.
i always put flow lines coming out from the crotch.
but then the HL2 model was just all squares with no flow lines.
it looked like he had just fell straight through a cattle grid or something.
strange.
think i will do it the way i usually do it and see how it turns out.
cheers!!

S. J. Tubbrit
07-05-2005, 01:35 PM
Hi,

Grid Type Meshes work very well for animation I've found, and suit lower polycount characters generally, however if you have as many as 3000 polys to play with, you can start bringing the detail up some, and define the edge loops a lot more, it really all depends on the rigging / engine, etc, the more you can do in the rig, the more you can define the edge loops within your model, but you need to remember processer computing time, let's say (stupid example!!), you have a character with two bones, character has 1000 verts, lower bone is weighted to the bottom half of the body, let's say 500 verts, and upper body is weighted to second bone, 500 verts, in a game engine 1st bone knows it is weighted to bottom bone, but also computes that it isn't weighted to the other 500 verts, now multiply that computing for a typical skeletal rig for say 20-25 bones, it's a lot to process, 3000 polys is a nice number to work with, just make sure you use that detail where your going to notice it, I'd always err on the side of bringing a mesh in slightly lower if I can, and be sure that the silhouette is the most important, lower polycounts are easier to manage and easier to texture, imo. However, using your gridified mesh structure, your already off to a good start, you can define edge loops thereafter if you need to, I'd be interested to see a screengrab of the mesh you talk about ?

Here's an older model of mine, following the grid-like structure : -

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/6500/026oilbaron9gj.th.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/my.php?image=026oilbaron9gj.jpg)

ok, I think I waffled and didn't really say much there.. :) , a grid like mesh is good, for definable details you need to go more the edge-loop route, grid like meshes work particularly well for clothed characters.

Regards

rob-beddall
07-05-2005, 02:44 PM
hello

i think we must have different views on what a grid type mesh is.
the model you showed looks similar to the way i was taught.
i have attached an example of a model i made by me and the model from HL2.
it may be just that the HL2 model is made of triangles, but it just looks to me as though the mesh has no "flow".
for example, the critch area on the HL2 model looks really messy. and looks as though no thought has gone into deformation. ( i could be wrong and most probably am)

i know ther is no right or wrong way when it comes to these things but i would just like to know peoples opinions. i personally prefer the way my mesh is modelled over the HL2 one. (but i would because i made it :)
the mesh on the left is only 2000 tri's tho. the HL2 one is 3000 (the limit i'm workig to now)

thanks

S. J. Tubbrit
07-05-2005, 03:00 PM
Oh, wait, do you mean triangulated rather than quadrangulated, rather than mesh layout, I've rejigged the piccie you attached and removed the obvious triangulated edges, leaving only the quad layout behind, as you can see the edge flow is quite apparent and will work well with animation, every game engine will triangulate a mesh at runtime, if not beforehand (at exporter stage, etc), it may be it was all quads when the original artist created it, and upon export into HL2 it get's triangulated, I assume because your accessing the HL2 models your getting them straight out of the game anyway in their triangulated state.

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7862/flowlinesrejig6sp.th.jpg (http://img62.imageshack.us/my.php?image=flowlinesrejig6sp.jpg)

Anyway, assuming we're both on the same subject now! :) , then building all quads can be an easy way to layout your model quickly, however, I do recommend tri usage wherever possible, triangles are your best friend in games modelling, if you master tri's in your modelling flow, you'll get much, much more detailed models out, I also currently have a work in progress Zombie (hence the interest your thread! :) ), and mine comes in at 3000 tri's too, I've utilised a mixture of quad modelling and triangulation that 'I' can control rather than an engine, this way I can visualise 'exactly' how my model will look ingame (rather than edge's getting flipped in the wrong direction and so on), and because I've essentially created the whole model with Tri's, I've been able to put a lot of detail into the model, including all toes, all fingers, bone detail, ribcage detail, pelvis detail, facial detail, it's all there, I'll post a wip in the next couple of days once I've refined it to showcase what I mean, but yeah, I'd recommend you at least give some triangulation a 'tri', oh groan, bad pun, I mean try! :)

Regards

rob-beddall
07-05-2005, 03:13 PM
well, i didn't mean triangulated instead of quadralateted. but you have helped me anyway.

i couldn't see past all the triangles to see the flow lines.
but with your help i can now see that it wasn't that different from my model after all.
so thanks for that.

don't suppose you could give us a little peak at your zombie?
i really want to carry on with this model but i also want to maybe try out the triangle thing you were talking about. i've got an idea how using tri's allows for more detail (geosphere for example) but it sounds hard. ( and i'm not off to a good start seeing as i couldn't even make out the lines on that last model)

anyway, i look forward to seeing your zombie, even if you don't post it for another couple of days.

thanks

p.s yes, that WAS a bad pun :thumbsup:

rob-beddall
07-05-2005, 03:14 PM
wow , not many of my threads get a 2nd page. :bounce:

S. J. Tubbrit
07-05-2005, 03:23 PM
> don't suppose you could give us a little peak at your zombie?
i really want to carry on with this model but i also want to maybe try out the triangle thing you were talking about. i've got an idea how using tri's allows for more detail (geosphere for example) but it sounds hard. ( and i'm not off to a good start seeing as i couldn't even make out the lines on that last model)

ack, it's not that hard once you get into the frame of mind of using them, try triangulating a couple of your quads on your mesh for a start, then see which way your edges flow once triangulated, and get used to flipping them, cuz' that'll happen a lot, more often than not it'll not flow nicely in line with the mesh structure, proportionally speaking, sometime you will purposely go against the edge flow structure so that you can define a shape better, for instance, a forearm muscle can be defined by reversing the expected edge flow of a quad, if you know what I mean.

Well, although my models done, I'm still tweaking because I'm not happy with the facial shape, I need to work that more, I'd be more than happy to showcase a couple of screengrabs later tonight though (at work right now), showcasing the body structure, it's more of a long time dead, emaciated zombie than fresh kill though. :)

Regards

rob-beddall
07-05-2005, 03:35 PM
hey!!

cool, i'll look out for it in the forum.
unless you post it here in which case i'll get an instant email.

thanks again for the help.

cheers!!

S. J. Tubbrit
07-05-2005, 08:44 PM
Ok, here's the body as promised, I'll be starting a seperate thread once I finalise my head shape : -

http://img124.imageshack.us/img124/7424/sjtzombiewip1fn.th.jpg (http://img124.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sjtzombiewip1fn.jpg)

and

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/9719/sjtzombiewip22at.th.jpg (http://img53.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sjtzombiewip22at.jpg)

you'll have to excuse the crappy quality and layout of the screengrabs, but it's only to demonstrate the detail that I mentioned I was able to achieve by utilising more triangles in my workflow than I normally would. As it stands, the body without the head comes in at 2422 triangles, leaving me 578 tri's for the head, which is currently below that, but being refined so that it falls spot on the 3000 poly limit.

jOBe
07-05-2005, 09:02 PM
thats one HUGE rib cage there...

S. J. Tubbrit
07-05-2005, 09:06 PM
hehe, :), I remember thinking the same myself when I started it, it was actually modelled against a high-res anatomical skeleton I had templated in another layer, just to make sure I didn't muck up the proportions and placement of joints, etc

rob-beddall
07-09-2005, 05:43 PM
hey!!

just another update. haven't been able to work on this for the last couple of days so not too much has changed.
working on his arms next.

all crits and comments are most welcome
cheers!!

rob-beddall
07-11-2005, 12:27 AM
hey!!

the low poly version of this guy is nearly finished now.
needs a few tweaks here and there.
still need to join him up then de symmetryfy him. (eh?) you know what i mean. make him none mirrored. :)

then it's off to zbrush for this chappy.
oh, still need to UV him too.
cheers!!
please don't be shy. post a comment.

rob-beddall
07-11-2005, 03:11 AM
hey!!

little bit more work done.
this time in triangle mode yay!
just say something, anything.

cheers!!

Jol
07-11-2005, 09:03 AM
Hey Rob,

Good to see your work again. Intresting thread.

On the 'grid' debate, I personally reckon grid style meshes have a number of advantages (not least effecient tri stripping) but it's really important that though the stucture may be a 'grid' the lines within the 'grid' are not straight. There are no straight lines in a dressed human. Build a grid if you like but remember to curve the lines afterwards.

Head looks like it is effecient and would deform well. Watch some of the lines where the jaw hits the neck, they look too straight to me in the 3/4 view. I'd personally all some thickness to the back of the ears (rim) this looks very sharp and if so generaly doesn't light well.

On main body agree with previous posts that the area on top of the shoulder might be hard to deforem without bad stretching. I'd definitely do some quick weighting tests before going to normals.

Overall proportins look good and clothing nice too. main issue is hands look way too 'flat' across the back of the palms. This seems to be a DMU trait ;-)

I'd work on how you flow the clothing neckline into the neck, this seems un-resolved ATM. Possibly adda few more divisions into front of cap peak too.

Keep at it, improving all the time.

Jol

johnwoo
07-11-2005, 09:27 AM
Cool...I dig the proportions!...it's definitely a good mesh and I like the details you've modelled in like the hood etc...but the geometry does'nt indicate anything to me in terms "zombie"...would be cool to see chunks missing etc.. that you could further describe through textures...but this is definitely looking real good...keep up the good work :)

rob-beddall
07-11-2005, 09:32 AM
hey!!

yeah, it would be cool to be able to do the whole "chunks missing" thing but i'm working to someone else's concept. This is a freshly dead zombie, along the lines of the new Dawn of the Dead film or 28 days later. In the concept he was none mutilated other than being covered in blood.
not really a zombie at all really but not sure what they call them.
cheers!!

johnwoo
07-11-2005, 09:45 AM
Ah ok...If this has to be exactly like the concept then that's cool...by the sounds of things the texturing has a lot of work...heh...all the same keep up the good work...

btw...call 'em "the infected"...well that's what they were in 28 days later...btw there's a sequel planned...YAY!!...:)

rob-beddall
07-11-2005, 09:48 AM
hey!!

the texturing shouldn't have that much work to do. the concept basically looks like a human covered in blood. so all i need to do is texture him, then cover him in blood :)
well, i'm hoping that's going to work.

a sequel you say? i'll have to take a look into that.

cheers!!

rob-beddall
07-11-2005, 03:30 PM
hey!!
ok,after spending far too long at the job centre i'm finally "signed on".
now back to work on the model.
the only problem is i'm having trouble with the skin modifier.
i usually work with physique (in max) and the skin modifier seems a little different.
anyone know any good tutorials on using the skin modifier for a low poly character.
i've looke at some tuts on the web and also the help files but it all seems to be for hi res stuff.
and they use gizmo's and what not to control the deformation of the bend.
i'm assuming that you wouldn't be able to use these gizmo's for a game charcter? ( i could be wrong, please tell me if i am)

cheers!!

rob-beddall
07-11-2005, 03:37 PM
hey!!

or just a good tutorial on rigging game characters would be a help also. (i'm pretty sure the way i normally do it is not the best way)
thanks.

Psyk0
07-11-2005, 03:50 PM
I have a simple tutorial about jedi academy player models, i explain the basic steps i took to rig the meshes using manual weighting, maybe that could help?

http://www3.sympatico.ca/psykopat/

see tutorials / using the skin modifier (part 1 is what you need)

rob-beddall
07-11-2005, 03:57 PM
hey!!

thanks for the link and tutorial.
i had a quick scan through it and it looks to be exactly what i was looking for.
also downloading the video tutorial as i write this.

which method is better or mostly used for games stuff. skin or physique?

thanks again for directing me to the tutorial

cheers!!

rob-beddall
07-11-2005, 06:34 PM
hey!!

well, i've been playing around with the skin modifier. it seems alot faster than physique.
when i was using that i was assigning verts manually anyway but Max seems to lag really bad when displaying physique verts for some reason??

so here are a couple of examples of how it's deforming.
is it ok? the geometry is cutting into itself at the top of the shoulder and the arm cuts into the body. (but i don't think there is anyway of stopping that coz he's wearing a baggy top)

all crits and comments are welcome. cheers!!

http://img302.imageshack.us/img302/548/90ji.gif

Sonk
07-12-2005, 01:19 AM
Its nice to see you test the deformation! :). BTW, does your model have teeth? It should have it, since the zombie we'll have a bite animation, please also include a inner mouth mesh.

cant wait to see it textured :)

rob-beddall
07-12-2005, 02:01 AM
hey!!

haven't modelled the teeth yet but the mouth is openable and it shouldn't have any problems deforming. i'll add them tomorrow along with the inner mouth.
oh and for NMRIH do the eyes have to be modelled ad then placed in the socket?
i looked at the Alyx model from HL2 and they aren't, i don't think.

cheers!!

Psyk0
07-12-2005, 02:45 AM
Hey nice work deformation looks good. Glad i could help, the current video tutorial is kind of crappy, i made a better one (on a very low poly model) but havent found a place to host it yet.

Maybe the pros could let us know what's more common...physique or skin, i guess it also depends on the software.

ArchangelTalon
07-12-2005, 03:04 AM
hey!!

haven't modelled the teeth yet but the mouth is openable and it shouldn't have any problems deforming. i'll add them tomorrow along with the inner mouth.
oh and for NMRIH do the eyes have to be modelled ad then placed in the socket?
i looked at the Alyx model from HL2 and they aren't, i don't think.

cheers!!
Eyes in HL2 are done by shaders, so no, you just sort of close over the eye sockets and the engine does the rest.

I haven't looked into setting it up yet, so I can't help you there. There's a file called qceyes.exe in the sourcesdk, though. That's what you use to set it all up.

Sonk
07-12-2005, 04:36 AM
Eyes in HL2 are done by shaders, so no, you just sort of close over the eye sockets and the engine does the rest.

I haven't looked into setting it up yet, so I can't help you there. There's a file called qceyes.exe in the sourcesdk, though. That's what you use to set it all up.

You are correct, the eyes are shader driven, using QCeyes. The only "requirement" is you tell QCeyes where the center of your pupil is(in X,Y,Z), so you'll need a vertex that describe that point. Once QCeyes has all the info, you delete all the polygons related to the eyes.

EDIT: dont post the concept art, as its not been published yet. BTW when i say, 1024 by 1024, that per map, one for diffuse, and one for normal map,etc.

S. J. Tubbrit
07-12-2005, 07:58 AM
Seems to be coming along nicely, shame you can't post the concept art so I could see better what your trying to achieve. :thumbsup:

S

Jol
07-12-2005, 12:50 PM
Hi Rob,

Deformation looks good.

Psyk0, that a nice skin modifier tutorial and great site, love those Jedi models.

Generally I think Skin is way better than Physique. It's much more robust and hugely better than Physique for allowing you to do things like add and remove bones and move bones around. It's worth getting used to the paint blend waits tool, a fast way to rig is to grab large areas of verts manually and asign to a bone at full influence, do this across the mesh and then paint in blends afterwards. Will need plenty of tweaking but gets you started fast.

The Morph joint deformers in skin are great but but only really work with 'hinge' joints like elbows and knees in my experience. This sort of deformation can be used in game (I belive Prince of Persia does this?). There is a cost though, as soon as you move from a purely bone driven rig and start to include morphs you need to calculate the morph vertice movemnent away from the GPU and this can slow things down. As always it seems to be about tradeoffs.

BTW, the eyes moving with out moving a geometry eyball can be set up in a Max viewport by using a controller on the U and V offset in a meterial. This can be pretty effective especially if you use Bobbo's Joystick manipulator (see scriptspot) to control the movement.

Cheers

Jol

rob-beddall
10-29-2005, 04:33 PM
hey!!
well, i haven't worked on this model for a long time. but i thought it was tim to revisit him.

i started the UV mapping and i have a problem, infact i have this problem with all my models.
how do you UV map the neck area without it getting badly stretched?
i could map the neck seperate and paint out the seam but i want to normal map him so this could cause problems with the normal map.
if someone could post some advice and maybe an example UV layout then that would be great.
or perhaps just point me to an address would be equally good.

hope someone can help me with this.

cheers!!

EDIT: doh! forgot to post the image

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/7991/uvtrouble9ld.jpg

rob-beddall
11-01-2005, 04:03 PM
hey!!
is there a way in max 7 or 8 to get the texture sheet displayed at a bigger resolution than 512x512? i'm using 1024x1024 for this guy but it get's compressed in the max viewport.

if i render then it comes out as normal but i'm using real time shaders so that's not really what i want.
i want my 1024x1024 texture displayed at 1024x1024 in the viewport. not 512x512.
i've looked under prefs>viewports>configure driver but the highest setting is 512.
surely this can't be right. loads of people use max for games stuff and a 512 texture sheet is pretty small these days.
if it can't be displayed at 1024 in the viewport, is there another way i can still use the real time shaders and the 1024 texture sheet for screen grabs / short animations etc, without rendering?
perhaps a model viewer or something?
cheers!!

Jol
11-02-2005, 12:52 PM
Hi Rob,

In Preferencece>Viewports>ConfigureDriver check the 'match bitmap as closely as possible' button. This will then load textures in at above the maximum 512 size. Reload texture to see result, remember you might max out your video ram and in that case the max texture size won't be loaded.

Good deformation in the shoulder, try and look at some of Bay Raitt's meshes as he sets up shoulders with a more distinct seperate muscel shape in the top of the shoulder and this deforms very well. Worth considering.

Jol

rob-beddall
11-02-2005, 01:51 PM
hey!!

thanks Jol. i guess i forgot to reload the texture.
don't suppose you know of a resource for Bay Raitt's work?
i know his homepage used to be www.spiraloid.com (http://www.spiraloid.com) but that doesn't seem to be there anymore.
i searched google but didn't really find anything showing shoulders. just heads.
though i think i might know what you mean about the top of the shoulder.

cheers!!

Jol
11-03-2005, 10:39 AM
Hi Rob,

try searcing under Mirai (the package), he used to do a lot of work in that and I remember images and documents on the web in that context. Anyone else got any ideas?
Jol

rob-beddall
11-03-2005, 10:52 AM
hey!!

ok. thanks Jol, i'll try searching for some more stuff today. i managed to find the spiraloid website, though i think the address has changed.
here it is if anyone else wants a look.

http://cube.phlatt.net/home/spiraloid/

there are some pretty cool time lapse gif's on there and also an AVI timelapse video which he apparently did in 1 afternoon. I get the feeling that a realtime video of him working probably wouldn't be much slower heh. :)
there is also a link on the site to the spiraloid forum. just need the time to search through there for some good pics.
i'll be working on this model tonight as well as a new one i have started so hopefully i'll have some update pics by tomorrow.

cheers!!

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