When does a professional job end?

[moka.studio]

I think the main thing is to be very clear wiht your client from the start. Specify in your contrcat exaclty what the final product will be. It is also good to define some kind of tim eplan, when there will eb corrections, and when the final input fom client can be ( how many days before the deadline). - It is important to have feedback throughout the process,m so there are no surprises, for either side, at te end. Make sure the client defines the format, the kind of aesthetic etc they want.If after the project is closed the client still wants modifications, you should charge for these at an hourly fee ( unless they are omissions on your part ) - this should clearly be stated in the contract as well.
Make sure things are clear, is basically the best advice .
jp

[AdamT]

It's a good idea to include in your contract specific provisions for what the end product will be, e.g., x number of views at x resolution, etc., and also include a provision stating that the contract includes x number of revisions, after which additional revisions/renders will be charged at a rate of $x/hr. In my experience the contract usually ends when the free revisions run out. :)

[Ernest Burden]

In my experience the contract usually ends when the free revisions run out. :)

It ain't over till the check clears.

I specify what product they are actually paying for 'deliverables will be digital files' for example. Before I put that in I was often expected to also make high-end prints. I do have a high-end print system, but its the sort of prints that typically cost several hundred dollars at a NY output/photo house. So I don't want to throw them in for free. Besides, I can't email prints.

Or, you are working hourly, and be prepared to justify the hours claimed. They may ask for, and you had better have, a log of your work.

In the end, the client is the customer, so their opion of what 'good enough' is, takes priority. You work up a reputation and usually there are not problems. If you deliver work in line with what you showed them before, you are OK. Problems are rare, but unavoidable sometimes. So get a retainer.

[Mono Jojoy]

– is how do you decide, or make it clear to your clients, when your involvement in their job actually finishes.
Thats easy, when you are fedup. Then you tell your client that you are not interested any more and you won't continue with the job.

[Stain777]

This would be great, except in the real world it doesn't happen like this. Clients always deliver late right up unitl and after the deadline but still expect you to hit yours. They change things on the fly, add new things, dole out information as they come up with it. etc.

Even the most thourough contract can't catch every aspect so you've got to play it somewhat by ear. Every project is a journey of discovery for both you and the client. They have some idea as to what they want, but it's your job to help them down the path to the end. They're hiring you for your expertise and experience, part of that is helping them find a result that meets their criteria, and brings their vision to life.

As you make your way through a project the most important thing to remember is communication. Set milestones for the project that are as specific as possible and keep communicating to let them know when milestones are approaching, what's expected from them, and show the results at each milestone.

Set expectations; let the client know when changes will impact the deadline, when issues arise that were unforseen, why you need certain information or assets. They're your partner for this journey, not your master. They need to understand that they have a duty too, even thought they're paying for the trip.

Be flexible; You can't expect them to see everything as clearly as you because it's not their job. You need to help them understand the scope of a project, and explain what this means for them and you. As you go forward they're going to realize what is possible (due to your brilliance :p ) and open whole new avenues that they hadn't thought of. Allow this to happen but in a controlled environment (see above). This is a natural part of the process and when controlled can be a serendipitous thing, we are artists after all.

I would also recommend setting up a payment schedule that's tied to specific milestones; 1/3 on initial concepting, 1/3 in the middle, 1/3 at the end. There are many good clients out there, but ther are many a**holes who will stiff you if possible. This will minimize the damage that they can do and believe me, when you lay it out in this kind of schedule they will respect you more for it.

Finally, as you get near the end begin saying so. Deadlines can be arbitrary and you always want to leave a client feeling like he got more than he'd asked for. This is a fine balance, don't kill yourself by giving away all profit that you'd earned by going overboard. Go over a list of final edits/changes with the client in order to lock down on what you agree are final modifications to complete the project. If the client asks for more think through what the impact is to your bottom line, then discuss it by showing what the original scope was and why it's considered outside the original project. How hard you push back will depend on whether they're a good partner, and how badly you want to continue the relationship. If you've been holding their hand the whole way and leading them through the process, your chances are better that they'll respect that you know what you're doing, and that you know your job better than they do. Charge for things outside the scope of the project, go ahead and give them estimates if they request it. But be certain that you give yourself some leeway, not overcharge -- rightcharge. Don't forget that you're in this for the long-haul and need to make a living at this, so don't give it away.

Sorry for giving a long answer to a short question, but after a quarter century of doing this stuff there are aspects that someone new to the field may not think of. Best of luck :thumbsup: .

[protocultura]

Little steps and don't back.
One thing I do with my clients is work in steps, for example: First, the model. If the client aproves the model, I go to the texturization, and so on. If the client ask me to change something in the model after this step is aproved I charge him.
For my is a good way because it works. important, (moka-j is right) "the main thing is to be very clear wiht your client from the start".
Cheers.

[alanmac]

Thats easy, when you are fedup. Then you tell your client that you are not interested any more and you won't continue with the job.

Or with a career! If I took that attitude with my clients I'd soon not have any. That's not to say you let them walk all over you, but client relationship is as important an aspect of your business as the quality of work you do.

Maybe if you've found the client to be somebody you don't want to work with again you may take that attitude, but even then you never know when you'll need them again, or how word can get around, so diplomacy always pays better in the end. "Sorry I'm too busy to take on your work at the moment, thanks for considering me" sounds so much better.

Alan

[RobertC]

Thank you very much everyone

I knew this was the right forum to raise this.

Thanks again for all your kind help and advice. It really is appreciated.

Rob

[Mono Jojoy]

alanmac,
I can afford to be like that.
I am also hobbyist and if someone ask me: Do you want to make some graphics for me then I say strictly: NO

And with respect to the rest I am very direct. Spongy question direct answer.

[Rev9]

You can put your foot down as I did after I rendered a whole coffee shop with logos and 850+ objects. He loved it and changed the name..I rerendered for 73 hours..and when I asked for my money..the second half.. he asked to put chandeliers in and a fully detailed 1890's cash register..which he had no resources or images of (and would barely be visible in the shop renders.... I was just to wing it and hope for his OK... I told him no! they will cause me to have to rerender every image again at 12 hours per render times 6. The cheque has been "in the mail" for a month now and no contact can be made. BTW.. This was all made clear up front. Too bad you cannot make an image expire so they cannot use your digital files if they don't pay and get the password to keep it viewable.. I could with Flash sites and always built in a expiry date only I knew how to change.

Best
BT

[Hilt]

Thats easy, when you are fedup. Then you tell your client that you are not interested any more and you won't continue with the job...
...I can afford to be like that. I am also hobbyist and if someone ask me: Do you want to make some graphics for me then I say strictly: NO And with respect to the rest I am very direct. Spongy question direct answer.

Some of us arent hobbyists, and the kindness in your tone equals to the thickness of your wallet.
I read Genie of the Bottle once too many, so after the final is delivered I give up to three changes (minor chances, I might add) before I continue hustl.. charging money again.


This was all made clear up front. Too bad you cannot make an image expire so they cannot use your digital files if they don't pay and get the password to keep it viewable

I never hand out the masters before the monetary issues are taken care of and everybody is happy with the result. Till then it's 'watermark, baby, watermark'

.mjt

[Mono Jojoy]

hyvä päivää Hilt,

talking about my wallet: I havent got any wallet ;)
I do other things for a living. For example eating, that keeps alive ;):bounce:

[JoelOtron]

hyvä päivää Hilt,

talking about my wallet: I havent got any wallet ;)
I do other things for a living. For example eating, that keeps alive ;):bounce:

But the guy who was posting mentions pretty clearly that he indeed wants to do this for a living. If you're a hobbyist and don't do this for a living, then why post?

Your not making many friends here mono jojoy--but I'm sure thats what your intent is--to ruffle feathers.

I have yet to read a post from you that is either helpful, friendly, or pertinent to the thread.

[Ernest Burden]

Too bad you cannot make an image expire so they cannot use your digital files if they don't pay

Too bad, but you cannot.

What you can do, what I do, is put a phrase in your contract that says 'usage rights upon full payment' meaning that they have no legal right to use the work until its paid for. That won't stop someone in a technical way, but it is good legal footing if you have a dispute.

But don't have a dispute. They suck. Work it out if its at all possible because everybody loses in court, one way or another.

[Stain777]

hyvä päivää Hilt,

talking about my wallet: I havent got any wallet ;)
I do other things for a living. For example eating, that keeps alive ;):bounce:

Honestly, if you have nothing to add that's worth reading please don't waste our time. We'd like to be as professional as possible on this forum as many, many of us do this for a living so take it very seriously. If you're a hobbyist great, enjoy! But our opinion of you sinks lower each time you post something like this.

If it's your intent to bait people, go for it. Abuse as many people as possible until you're banned. Have fun flaming and throwing crap around because it won't last very long.

There are so many talented people on this forum it seems a shame to waste it.

:lightbulb Can't you go kick cats or steal hubcaps instead? :D

[alanmac]

If you go into self employment maybe something on this guy's site might help.

I bookmarked it in my favourites for possible reference some time ago but can't remember the original source of the link. It may well have been one of the other forum members on this site.

Thank you if it was, hope it can be of help

http://www.allworth.com/Authors/Bio_TC.htm

Alan

[marc001]

Charge for things outside the scope of the project, go ahead and give them estimates if they request it. But be certain that you give yourself some leeway, not overcharge -- rightcharge. Don't forget that you're in this for the long-haul and need to make a living at this, so don't give it away.
How do you estimate a price for a project? I might have to bid for a project soon, and may need advice.

[duderender]

Little steps and don't back.
One thing I do with my clients is work in steps, for example: First, the model. If the client aproves the model, I go to the texturization, and so on. If the client ask me to change something in the model after this step is aproved I charge him.
For my is a good way because it works. important, (moka-j is right) "the main thing is to be very clear wiht your client from the start".
Cheers.

This is the best approach for a couple of reasons.

1) After each stage you've agreed to it being production ready. Therefore if all of a sudden the model is missing stuff after the approval review then you charge to make the update.

2) It gives the client a warm and fuzzy that you are making progress. Also, you get a chance to get a feel for what the client is really after. If after a preliminary render the client starts say how things look too hard or dull you know to warm the colours and maybe do some soft filter look.

The more you communicate with your client the less surprises and the better you will succeed in meeting their vision.

[Stain777]

How do you estimate a price for a project? I might have to bid for a project soon, and may need advice.

Good question, but a tough one too as it's pretty slippery and depends on a lot of factors.

Sit down and get as good an idea as possible of the scope of the work, their budget, their expectation for final delivery, and then take it away to put an estimate together. If you have enough experience you can make a pretty fair estimate as to how many hours it will take, add another 10-15% for overruns, materials, meetings, faxes, CDs, renderFarms, etc.. This is all with a grain of salt as you have to find out what the local market is, your amount of experience, etc. It's tough to estimate even in the best situation and you may end up eating some, but making out on others. Don't feel badly about either, you'll get smarter quickly.

Keep in mind that you're in this to make a profit, and do great work for your clients. You don't want to break even when all is done, or make $5/hour killing yourself. That is, unless your trying to make a name for yourself in a community when starting out or if there is more work down the road and this is a foot in the door. If that's the case, let them know they're getting a break in pricing but cant' expect to get it going forward.

Each region will have slightly different pricing, more in LA & NY, less in everywhere else. Find out what the going rate is from others in the profession locally, or a place that's roughly equal. There are also places on the web that list rates for different kinds of graphic work depending on region, sorry I don't have the link.

As my work is primarily print I have a better feel for that. If you need help with animation estimating you might be better asking one of the other guys.

[AdamT]

I would be careful about lowballing, even if you make it clear that this is a special, once-in-a-lifetime sale only offered as a good will gesture, etc. You may get your foot in the door, but when you get all the way in you may find it's a place you don't want to be. :)

[Mono Jojoy]

Honestly, if you have nothing to add that's worth reading please don't waste our time. We'd like to be as professional as possible on this forum as many, many of us do this for a living so take it very seriously. If you're a hobbyist great, enjoy! But our opinion of you sinks lower each time you post something like this.

Actually, Stain666, I was not talking to you, but to Hilt.

[Kuroyume0161]

It is not only good to be very clear with your client, but you should get as clear an idea of what is expected as possible from your client. Setting a rate or fee on a vague project may end up with you doing a great deal of work for slave wages. Set the boundaries on your job and make it known that anything beyond that will require like fees above anything quoted. It has been my experience to be in a situation or two where you start out all nice and simple, then all of a sudden the parameters change and you have many important responsibilities while still under the same 'contract' as it were.

When possible, I try to obtain NDAs and contracts or at least inquire about such things prior to taking the job. I give them my standard rates, they give me their budget, and we work it out from there. I also discuss the project as indepth as possible in order to gage the work/expenses involved as well as my experience and abilities to perform the work offered. If their budget wouldn't cover my expenses and rates (and I'm not particularly desperate!) or the work would be beyond my expertise, then I would pass.

[MJV]

CGTalk should make this a sticky. That was a great answer. :thumbsup:

This would be great, except in the real world it doesn't happen like this. Clients always deliver late right up unitl and after the deadline but still expect you to hit yours. They change things on the fly, add new things, dole out information as they come up with it. etc.

Even the most thourough contract can't catch every aspect so you've got to play it somewhat by ear. Every project is a journey of discovery for both you and the client. They have some idea as to what they want, but it's your job to help them down the path to the end. They're hiring you for your expertise and experience, part of that is helping them find a result that meets their criteria, and brings their vision to life.

As you make your way through a project the most important thing to remember is communication. Set milestones for the project that are as specific as possible and keep communicating to let them know when milestones are approaching, what's expected from them, and show the results at each milestone.

Set expectations; let the client know when changes will impact the deadline, when issues arise that were unforseen, why you need certain information or assets. They're your partner for this journey, not your master. They need to understand that they have a duty too, even thought they're paying for the trip.

Be flexible; You can't expect them to see everything as clearly as you because it's not their job. You need to help them understand the scope of a project, and explain what this means for them and you. As you go forward they're going to realize what is possible (due to your brilliance :p ) and open whole new avenues that they hadn't thought of. Allow this to happen but in a controlled environment (see above). This is a natural part of the process and when controlled can be a serendipitous thing, we are artists after all.

I would also recommend setting up a payment schedule that's tied to specific milestones; 1/3 on initial concepting, 1/3 in the middle, 1/3 at the end. There are many good clients out there, but ther are many a**holes who will stiff you if possible. This will minimize the damage that they can do and believe me, when you lay it out in this kind of schedule they will respect you more for it.

Finally, as you get near the end begin saying so. Deadlines can be arbitrary and you always want to leave a client feeling like he got more than he'd asked for. This is a fine balance, don't kill yourself by giving away all profit that you'd earned by going overboard. Go over a list of final edits/changes with the client in order to lock down on what you agree are final modifications to complete the project. If the client asks for more think through what the impact is to your bottom line, then discuss it by showing what the original scope was and why it's considered outside the original project. How hard you push back will depend on whether they're a good partner, and how badly you want to continue the relationship. If you've been holding their hand the whole way and leading them through the process, your chances are better that they'll respect that you know what you're doing, and that you know your job better than they do. Charge for things outside the scope of the project, go ahead and give them estimates if they request it. But be certain that you give yourself some leeway, not overcharge -- rightcharge. Don't forget that you're in this for the long-haul and need to make a living at this, so don't give it away.

Sorry for giving a long answer to a short question, but after a quarter century of doing this stuff there are aspects that someone new to the field may not think of. Best of luck :thumbsup: .

[SteveB]

Communication is the key!

Example-

I just completed a freelance job. 5 views of 5 types of houses/apartments, right at the last minute I had an email from the client with an attached image of a new door style. No probs, nothing to major. Fixed the door style and re-rendered (1 day in total). Upon seeing the updated viduals the client said..

"oh - the doors right, but you should have left the handles chrome, as you had them"

Another day rendering to fix - whos fault? I assumed that the door detail they sent was amendments to the door and the handles, they assumed that I would just change the door and leave the handles as I had shown them..

This type of thing can add time to a job that realistically you can never hope to charge on to the client.

Steve

[jscott]

Here is a thread where the guy way way underbid. Check my post on page 3 for a brief explanation of quoting a job.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=243055

-jscott

[Stain777]

I would be careful about lowballing, even if you make it clear that this is a special, once-in-a-lifetime sale only offered as a good will gesture, etc. You may get your foot in the door, but when you get all the way in you may find it's a place you don't want to be. :)

Adam makes a good point. Don't dig any hole that you know you can't crawl out of.

However, there were some pretty tough times when I would have bought the guy a hooker and some blow if I thought it would get me the job. ;)

[jph]

Actually, Stain666, I was not talking to you, but to Hilt.

... I am about to loose my temper on you!... by the time I post this 675 people have had a look at this thread... so to reply that you are talking to hilt just shows that you have no clue.
It has been said before if you don´t have to make a living of this it is fine, but don´t give stupid replies! There are people here sharing what the boundarie conditions of our work are, and it is vitaly important to get to know these `ruels´ are.
I have been freelancing for the past two years now, and I had a super tough learning curve...



I would be careful about lowballing, even if you make it clear that this is a special, once-in-a-lifetime sale only offered as a good will gesture, etc. You may get your foot in the door, but when you get all the way in you may find it's a place you don't want to be. :)

i second that

Saying something and acting are two things... if you enter a relationship through the wrong door, it is almost impoossible to indicate to the `right´ door...


It is also Important to find out what previous experience the client with the work you deliver has..., it does not help if your final render in the full resolution takes several hours and the client refuses to look at smaler prerenders, and names them stamps.
It has been said before that you have to be the expert, guiding the team (you and the client) through the process... I was quite puzzeled when I wasn´t able to discuss the prerenderings with the client..., but the mistake was on my side, cause I did not take the clients point of view into consideration.

One more thing I learned: If you are working for a bigger company and your client is part of the hierachie of that company, then he wants to go up, climb the stairs... It is vitaly important for you, in order to do a good job, to find out what his ambition he/she has. what their goals are, if you manage to do that you are much more likey to do a good job, and upon that you will be able to establish a good working relationship, because this way he/ she depends upon you...




And last but not least: You will have to make a cost listing, this way you get an idea of how much money you will have to make an hour to make a living..., to pay your expenses, etc.
You will find an old cost listing of mine in that link (it is in german though) the first site is a listing of the costs, the sceond site is a listing of the actual hours you are able to work..., the third site is what you might expect to earn in this sort of job if you are employed...

http://www.haluszka.com/kosten_neu_fo web.xls

and here is a good site to translate the german:
http://dict.leo.org


later Jan

[Stain777]

From the heat being generated by this thread it's become pretty obvious that this is a very, very important subject. It's what defines whether you make money doing what you love, or sink into the gutter as a penniless pauper. ;)

You've got to feed the machine (your business) and keep you and your family alive. This is a business. That means you're looking to give a good value to your customer. Value is defined as, "An amount, as of goods, services, or money, considered to be a fair and suitable equivalent for something else; a fair price or return." This doesn't mean the cheapest price and you have to be willing to defend that, in spite of my joke about getting a job at any cost.

When I was in school they didn't even addresss this stuff. You learned good design but not how to make money doing it. No discussion of contracts, clients, professionalism, or any business-like activity. So you just have to pick it up as best you can. Now there are more resources than there used to be. There are whole books devoted to contracts and business practices for designers. Spend the money to pick up one or two, it's very worth it.

[jph]

When I was in school they didn't even addresss this stuff. You learned good design but not how to make money doing it. No discussion of contracts, clients, professionalism, or any business-like activity. So you just have to pick it up as best you can. Now there are more resources than there used to be. There are whole books devoted to contracts and business practices for designers. Spend the money to pick up one or two, it's very worth it.


.... intresting.... and I thought that this was only at my school....


so for all the german speaking, here is a short list:

http://www.e-lancer-nrw.de/ratgeber/index.php

http://www.uni-weimar.de/gestaltung/weblog/index.php?id=A-2-W.c128.cXe&s=groups/das_design_buero%3Chttp://www.uni-weimar.de/gestaltung/weblog/index.php?id=A-2-W.c128.cXe&s=groups/das_design_buero

designers Manual, Wolfgang Maaßen
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3934482015/qid=1120588811/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_10_3/028-9597541-1698120

deigners contract, Wolfgang Maaßen
http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/3934482023/qid=1120588859/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_2_1/028-9597541-1698120

....and for acounting I use Quickbooks from lexware, it is one of the few where I can keep track of the hours I am working on a certain position of a job.



later jan

[Siddhy]

Thx for the good information in this thread. I can't add value to it but i can try to save some souls by pointing them to this website: http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/T/troll.html
I would completely understand removing this and other not on topic posts to keep this informative thread clean.

[Cartesius]

I agree, Siddhy, this is a very informative thread indeed (despite the troll). I am myself contemplating a sort of freelance career and information like this is unvaluable.

/Anders

[JoelOtron]

Sometimes a job never really ends.

I just got a call from a client to make a revision to an animation I started in 04, revised in Feb of this year and now I need to make a new change.

Its a good client and we have a great working relationship, so I just fit the job in as best as possible to keep the client happy. Your client is just another person with deadlines and responsibilities--you are basically taking a burden off of them, giving them one less thing to worry about in their hectic schedule. If you are able to be flexible and eager to solve the problem for them, they will value that, and you will continue to get work. If a client likes you and you are easy to work with, its a no-brainer. If the field you are working in has decent budgets (as opposed to working for your neighbors aunt who wants a cool banner for their website) then hopefully, money will never be an issue--and your client will show there appreciation that way.

You want to become the "go-to" guy--the one that comes through in any situation as is humanly possible. This is pretty much true for all my friends and colleagues who do this for a living. Each have at least 1 or 2 clients whether it be a producer, publisher, animation studio, etc who have remained loyal for many years due to of the ease of the working relationship. If you are consistantly dependable you will do well.

This is something to think about. If you are providing a service, say animation for a pharmaceutical client, they will most likely need revisions or updates in coming years to the animation as technology and styles change. I was recently hired to redo some animations from scratch for a client whose animations for a particular process were stylistically outdated. They looked good in 1999, but dont hold up in 2005 with all the cool techniques and tools that are now available to everyone.

So discuss this with your clients perhaps. In some cases they may want source files to hold on to in case 3 years from now when you've moved away, gotten a new job or (God forbid) passed away, they will hopefully be able to find someone to make changes. In many cases your client is working for another client, so they want to cover their back as well. Talk about this and decide what is best. Perhaps charging them for the rights to the files is a possibility--though I've found it is usually expected to be included.

[Srek]

Just a short story. I've been working as a PC techsupport and network guy for over ten years before going to Maxon. In my second year at Maxon i got a call from my ex partner/boss that one of the old servers i installed for his biggest client several years ago had some sever problems with the RAID array. Since i was the only one he knew with the needed knowhow he called me. I spent a long weekend recovering several failed drives and stuff (in an attempt to fix the problem they created a real mess and the backup was 1/4 year old). The money i got for this was ok, but surely not the reason why i did help as good as i could.
Now just a few weeks ago while one of the Maxon programmers was in a real crunch his main system decided to quit. I called my ex partner and within two hours the developer had a replacement at his doorstep.
Moral of this? Even if a situation is not covered by contract, try your best to help the customer, you never know what it might be good for :)

Mono Jojoy: With your kind of attitude you won't get a foothold anwhere, especialy not as a freelancer. Reliability is imo the single most important asset you can offer a client.

Cheers
Björn

[alanmac]

This indeed has been one of those threads we all hope to see here (despite the stupidity of one individual to try and railroad it)

It helps those contemplating going freelance to understand the approaches and systems you need to put in place to ensure you are successful.

Of course talent, speed and skill will pay a major part in your success, but as already indicated never under estimate the need to be a skilled communicator and diplomat when talking to clients, or even your suppliers.

If you are the type of person who despite being very talented are a real pain in the arse to deal with and a competitor is not guess who the client is going to want to use more?

Don't mistake this statement as needing to be somebody who agrees to everything the client wants.

I regard my clients as partners in a way, we get together on a project, discuss it's requirement and jointly find a solution which we hope wins the pitch.

I'm their to provide a service, not only in my design skills but also as an advisor, using my experience and knowledge to ensure the client in turn is successful, because if they are successful, it means they stay in business and in doing so continue to want my services.

It's also a two way street and I've gone to meet people and from the moment I've started to talk to them I knew we'd not "gel" That does not mean either of us are bad, doing something wrong, or should start to hate each other, but be aware that it's only human nature to get on better with some people more than others.

For the sake of good business I always try to make the effort, and if it's somebody who I really can't work with it's the "I'm terribly sorry, much as I'd like to take on the work, I'm really busy at the moment, and as you know I've never let anybody down on a promised deadline, so I 'll have to pass this one over. Thanks for considering me though"

I get clients phone me for advice, where they can get a particular service or product from, and I'm only too pleased to search my files, phonebook to be of assistance. Good client relationship.

But if they don't give me any work and are just "using me" its sorry can't help I'm afraid, don't really know of something/someone like that. If I don't feel my back being scratched then they won't feel me scratching theirs.

So as you can see it's not just about being good at the work you do when you "go it alone"
it's a test of all that makes up your character as well as your skill.

One of the great things that forums like this with the kindness, open generosity, willness to help etc. of 99% of it's members is -- you are not alone !!

I'd like to take this opportunity to thank all my fellow forum members for their contributions to this forum and helping to make it one of the most worthwhile and nicest places I've ever bookmarked in my browser, thank you.

Before the internet many of us beavered away in solitude without help or points of reference. Clients would even use this to their advantage, trying to get you to work for less by saying that most people did it for less money etc.

Now we have a global reach and the artist who can help is no longer working on the workstation across the studio but across the world.

I've got a couple of sites related to freelance work which I'll post the links as soon as I can find them ( on my old PC)

For many the freelance life does not suit them. I'm actual back working full time, one of my clients of some seven years standing asked me to join him.

Not only does it give me a chance to see project through from brief to build but I don't have to worry about getting the money in anymore.

I could take the long hours, the tight deadlines, the pressure to come up with new ideas etc. What I can't cope with is the late payment "disease" that afflicts small business here in the UK. I deliver the job as required, on time, all I ask is I'm paid on time !! Not all clients are poor payers but the few that do pay on time are just that - few.

So despite earning less it's somebody elses job to chase the money and I get my wages every month to pay the bills. Job security - aahh now that's another issue.

All the best

Alan

[Hilt]

Nothing new to add here at this point (so far that totals about 388 similar posts for me then), but this and danb's thread (link above) oughta be put on sticky or then we should bump it up on regular basis.

Sure Z-Axis Lock issues and modeling cubes are important questions in this line of industry, but they're not even half as important as what happens between the client and the artist.
If you're starting in the industry as freelancer, all the help available is very much needed. You can be natural-born Michelangelo, but even then you need know-how on things that happens outside your computer room.

They try hustle you to work cheap while we try to outsmart them for bigger salary. Threads like these help people to know their rights and obligations as artists.

.mjt

[rendermania]

This indeed has been one of those threads we all hope to see here (despite the stupidity of one individual to try and railroad it)

There's nothing in this thread that hasn't been posted on various 'freelance advice' threads posted on other design related boards before. This is all stock advice on freelancing/client relations. You can find it in books. You can find it on video/web design boards. You may not want this thread diluted with other info, but I still don't see how five different "professionals" find it in themselves to bash one hobbyist who cracked two little jokes as "stupid", a "troll" and various other things. "plz don't dilute this thread" would have been enough.

[Stain777]

There's nothing in this thread that hasn't been posted on various 'freelance advice' threads posted on other design related boards before. This is all stock advice on freelancing/client relations. You can find it in books. You can find it on video/web design boards.

Absolutely true, and I think we've also mentioned it in this thread. I believe that we took this as an opportunity to share some of our experiences and advice on a more personal level. We could have simply listed other resources and suggested he read the AIGA book, but that's a little cold don't you think?

[AdamT]

And for the sake of completeness, sometimes the job ends when the bullet finds its mark.

Okay, that's just fantasy. :)

[JoelOtron]

There's nothing in this thread that hasn't been posted on various 'freelance advice' threads posted on other design related boards before. This is all stock advice on freelancing/client relations. You can find it in books. You can find it on video/web design boards. You may not want this thread diluted with other info, but I still don't see how five different "professionals" find it in themselves to bash one hobbyist who cracked two little jokes as "stupid", a "troll" and various other things. "plz don't dilute this thread" would have been enough.

Hi rendermania

I can see your point--perhaps some of us got a bit touchy. However, this wasn't an isolated incident with this particular member.

[alanmac]

Maybe I should clarify my opening sentence for you rendermania.

My meaning "This indeed has been one of those threads we all hope to see here" was about the good nature, and helpfulness of fellow CG people sharing their knowledge and experience with other members.

I was going to write more but then another good piece of advice on a forum came to mind - don't feed the troll....

[Katachi]

There's nothing in this thread that hasn't been posted on various 'freelance advice' threads posted on other design related boards before. This is all stock advice on freelancing/client relations. You can find it in books. You can find it on video/web design boards.

Fine, go and buy them or read them. This has nothing to do with this thread does it? I call this arrogant and not very constructive and NOT informative as you may have thought when you posted this. ME, MYSELF and I want this thread with THIS information that has been posted here. So stop hijacking this thread.

You may not want this thread diluted with other info, but I still don't see how five different "professionals" find it in themselves to bash one hobbyist who cracked two little jokes as "stupid", a "troll" and various other things. "plz don't dilute this thread" would have been enough.

There´s no thread on this board that hasn´t been hijacked by MonoJojoy with useless and destructive comments (yes, I overdo but it´s the message that counts) and there are already some people here that are pretty pissed. And I am one of those. This has nothing to do with professional or not. This is about sensibility and posting just because you have too much time is not sensible. Neither for a professional, nor for a hobbyist. There are enough forums/threads for writing off topic stuff.

And I am not accepting people strolling in here and talking bullshit all the time although they should better shut up on certain topics (I am talking destructive postings). And I can´t understand people coming in here and trying to "arbitrate" although they have no clue why people are saying what they are saying. And I could already start raging again, because posts like yours destroy the thread and the actual topic.

I am not in the mood to look thru 1000 pages of a thread just to find out that 5% of the postings are readable and not simply bullshit or offtopic or whatever as the rest, just because some people think they must transmitt what they have done during the day.

Yes I am angry at this moment and I am sick and tired of being angry and sick and tired, so the hell, STOP hijacking this thread and let people give constructive hints and tipps to those that do not have a library at home, are not surfing the internet since 1980 or simply are new to the whole genre.

P.S.: Excuse my choice of words but I couldn´t look at this any longer...

[jph]

There's nothing in this thread that hasn't been posted on various 'freelance advice' threads posted on other design related boards before. This is all stock advice on freelancing/client relations. You can find it in books. You can find it on video/web design boards. You may not want this thread diluted with other info, but I still don't see how five different "professionals" find it in themselves to bash one hobbyist who cracked two little jokes as "stupid", a "troll" and various other things. "plz don't dilute this thread" would have been enough.


Hey rendermania, I apreciate that you take a stand for the weak giving some suport to Mono Jojoy (who obviously has not been in the position to make some crucial experiences yet), ...even though I don´t entirely agree with you.

I have got this feeling that I am just a tiny glimpse ahead of Mono Jojoy and therefore lack important knowledge myself ...and not knowing it almost broke my neck..., and I am not quite sure if I got my head outa the sling yet...

I also haven´t been around as long as you, and I would apreciate if you could give those, that have not surfed the web as much as you have, a little more detail of where to find real helpfull rescource on this subject on the web.

So if you could share your profound list of books and links (which you mentioned in your post), I belive that not only me, but even Mono Jojoy will find that list helpfull, once he gets on a more professional level having to earn his own money.


yours sincerely

jph

[Mono Jojoy]

JPH and all others,
with respect to web graphics and animations I am only a hobbyist. I like computers and their applications. Some buy fancy cars others get thmselves some software to play around with and discover.

Still, I dont see anything wrong with my first answer. At the end business is all the same.
You dont like to do it any more, you shove it. If you do a job, do it as good as you can, but you have to 'like' the job and the outcome.

What does it help if you continue to struggle with your client and it is never good enough, or you client got someone else, but doesnt tell you about that, and now he looks for reasons to get you out.
Dont let your client play with you.

The more professional way would be putting up a contract and there you list up what you have to offer plus conditions and your client lists up what you get in exchange for that.
NOT: I work for you and you give me money.
Put some details in.

[JoelOtron]

Aaaaanyway...


I found this on Turbosquid. Havent read so dont know how good it is--but it looks interesting.


http://files.turbosquid.com/Preview/Content_on_6_10_2005_18_10_35/ts_Image01.jpg72be2b34-6ee4-470d-ae91-ce15ae4e77f5Large.jpg


http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/267008

[guypapyrus]

What a great thread (for the most part ;)). As a freelancer of about a year and a half, it makes good reading: while freelancing is a big improvement over being an employee for me, I'm still not doing the kind of work I want to on a consistent basis (though I'm in the midst of my first motion graphics project, and I'm learning some of the tough lessons first hand :)).

Before freelancing, I'd been in and around the consulting industry for about 7 years (and my main client is a consulting firm, so it's really over 8 now). Consultants -- at least new ones, though it often sticks with experienced ones too -- tend to have a client-is-my-master attitude, and seem to believe that "the customer is always right." I think one is much better off regarding the client as a partner: you have something they want (CG skills); they have something you want (cash); you make an exchange, and ideally you're both better off. If you think the client is wrong, misguided, etc. in a given situation, I think it's a good idea to make your case, though tact and diplomacy can go a long way.

So much for the general mindset stuff. The big lesson I've come away with so far from my current project is: know who has decision-making power, and who the intermediaries are. You'd have to go much further than this, but it's a necessary first step, I reckon.

One more thing occurs to me. I bet it's common as a new freelancer to obsess over how to gain and keep clients; but I think it's just as important to have an exit strategy with respect to each client, even before the relationship get's very deep. At least some idea of how you might terminate the relationship with minimal fallout.

I'm a little too green to add to the advice about contracts, etc. :D

Best,
Andrew

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