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albe99
07-01-2005, 06:38 PM
Dear friends,
Can xfrog plants be animated in Vue 5i to react to the wind
using Python? how?

Mike.H
07-02-2005, 01:41 PM
not that i know of, but i asume it could possible, however using python to do that would take alot of extra time........

Hopefully the cornucopia store (end of july) will have several new and original high quality vue trees/plants from e.on once itīs launched.

mdunakin
07-04-2005, 02:06 AM
Say, will I "need" to purchase this other program at the same time I get Vue 5 I?

I'm refering to that Frog program.

thanx.............md :)

Mike.H
07-04-2005, 10:58 AM
xfrog is a great vegy/plant application however in my opinion wait until youīr vue5Infinite copy has arrived, vue5īs plants are quite good in my opinion (not of the same quality as xfrog but still real nice) and if you need smoother looking plants just increase the polycount + vueīs plants have the advantage of the wind feature and cornucopia is opening now in july and with some luck e.on will have some new quality vue plants on sale there, so just wait a few weeks and decide then if you need a specialized plant app like xfrog, im not so sure you will.

oglop
07-19-2005, 03:48 AM
i came across a tut at renderosity,vue forum there was a guy providing a tut about how to import xfrog foliage lib into vue (video tut),but i cann't recalll where it is now.

Wabe
07-19-2005, 07:50 AM
I don't think imported objects can be reacting to wind. Even Python will not do that i think. The react to wind feature is for Vue vegetation so to say exclusively. So XFrog trees will not react to wind as well.

BTW, if someone is not too happy with Vue trees and wants them to use just themselves (not selling or giving away) i found TreePro (www.onyxtree.com (http://www.onyxtree.com/)) much more intuitive to do plants. You will be able to do a good tree after 2 minutes of opening the program. Incredible. They have a new module out - flowers. Looks excellent too. The program is not cheap but gives excellent results!

Megalodon
07-19-2005, 08:43 AM
Wabe is right. TreePro by Onyx is incredible! For ease of use, it blows XFrog out of the water. XFrog will give you much more control to create many more things other than trees and flowers. Currently TreePro (at v6) is good, but v7 is supposed to have exportable animated objects. Right now you can "do wind" in TreePro, but exporting them is a pain because you have to do it frame by frame and export each individual object file. They're supposed to be automating it for v7. Of course if you use Max there is the TreeStorm plugin that is supposed to be outstanding. We use LW, so unfortunately that's out of the question.

We just got the Flower module - VERY nice!

Megalodon

Wabe
07-19-2005, 09:03 AM
The only thing with TreePro is their very restrictive copyright thing. You are not allowed to even think about giving models to others. Even the use in other packages is questionalbe when you read the text literally. But ease of use and quality - fantastic.

Too bad that their marketing seems a little lame, they could really blow XFrog away from the market.

I wonder how they do the copyright thing with the Max plugin. Does anybody know maybe?

Mike.H
07-19-2005, 02:52 PM
yep onyx looks good but itīs a pretty expensive suit of applications compared to xfrog and vue, but yes it looks quite good, to bad the website is so god damn awful, and i cant find a demo either so i have to agree that their marketing department might need a few overhauls, the website and the lack of a demo makes it look pretty dated and not directly inspiring confident in their products.

personaly i would be pretty interested in the flower application since that is something that vue is realy lacking (i still have some hopes for cornucopia and plants/flowers)

Anyway, Wabe since youīre a onyx user, how does the export work together with vue? any issues at all with exported plantīs or would we have to resort to compositing?

Wabe
07-19-2005, 03:02 PM
I think they are not interested in marketing at all. The site is the same since i know them. And that is a VERY long time - version one of their software. But because of the lack of demo i only bought version 6 then.

Prices. Buy XFrog plus one or two content CDs with plants and then compare.

Yes, the flower module looks awesome, i hope someone buys it and tells us the experiences. And/or shows some examples of homemade flowers.

Mike.H
07-19-2005, 08:07 PM
hey wabe, Anyway since youīre a onyx user, how does the export work together with vue? any issues at all with exported plantīs or would we have to resort to compositing, would be nice to hear your opinion of version6 and vue.

Yeah lets hope someone picks up that onyxflower app :)

Wabe
07-19-2005, 09:02 PM
Megalodon said they have the Flower module. Maybe he can show us some examples/tell us some experiences.

One issue with all pant creating external software is the point that all is really 3D modelled. Every twig, leaf etc. Makes files sometimes really huge. Especially pine trees or firs. Uuuhhhh. I did some birches the other day, one with, one without wind. Each model (obj) had 120 MB. You can imagine what happens when you try to do a forest.

Texturing the leaves with real maps that come with the package is a little difficult i found. Mostly i don't get it right. But that is not a big thing, it is enough to give them a Vue material, the shape is ok already anyway. Curved leaves the program can do as well when i read the manual. But this i never managed to do. But that is probably my fault, too impatient.

So i normally use Vue plants and only for very special trees (Willows, very special trunks etc) i use TreePro. Vue plants have another plus, each plant you create is different from the others, as long as you don't use copy/paste of course.

Megalodon
07-19-2005, 09:05 PM
Here are just a few from the Flower module rendered in LW. Complete w/UV's and textures - you of course can change these every which way and make completely new versions. It's actually alot of fun to play with, ahem..... when I have the time.

I apologize if the image does not show - never attached an image before! :)

Megalodon

Mike.H
07-19-2005, 09:11 PM
thanks for butting in Megalodon :)

wabe, yeah youīre right atleast for me the interest in onyx would be to use vue trees for the big mass of plants and onyx plants/flowers for those special up and personal plants, anyway im still hoping that e.on will bring out some quality trees and plants once cornucopia opens, but onyx flower app looks tempting if e.on doesnt deliver.

Wabe
07-19-2005, 09:26 PM
Looks fantastic. Hope the tax situation is sorted out soon (i hope that since 20 years now) and there is a little money left over. A must this Flower module!

A compromise may be to go to RDNA and buy some plants for Poser, they have some really nice stuff there. Or in Renderosity marketplace i bought some bushes that work very fine even in closeup. They all use transmaps to get the small parts. Similar to the technique Vue uses.

MsLin
07-20-2005, 12:55 AM
I was desparate for flowers so I just bought bunches of them at RDNA. And the price was sure right. I looked at the Onyx site - pretty expensive, at least for me. I can buy a LOT of flowers for that at RDNA. And they are great close up. I'm referring to the Transpond stuff.

Wabe
07-20-2005, 01:20 PM
@megalodon
Two questions out of curiosity. How big is a typical file that comes out of the flower package? And is this restrictive copyright thing there as well? Ok, the answer to the second question i guess i know. But PLEASE, surprise me!

Mike.H
07-20-2005, 02:30 PM
to wabe: whatīs this restrictive copyright thingy youīre talking about in regards to onyx, surely "we"(onyx users) must be allowed to use exported geometry in other 3d applications, if not, why is there even an export function? i cant imagine that we arent allowed to use onyx "flowers" for commercial work, or am i wrong ? If so i dont see how onyx would be able to sell one single copy of itīs apps :)

Very curious since iīve seen you post twice about restrictions now and that would of course have a major impact on a future purchase of onyx for me.

Walli
07-20-2005, 02:37 PM
hi,

I have some dandelions and nettles on my page available for download:

http://www.wallis-eck.de/2005/index.php?page=Pflanzen

I normally use Xfrog to create plants for renderings inside Cinema and Vue. The nice thing is, that you have full controll over detail. So you can create detailed polygon mosters, or nice lowpoly stuff.

Can see some of my renders here: Plant renderings (http://www.wallis-eck.de/2005/index.php?page=Stills&gallery=./Natur/Pflanzen)

I am not sure, but I think there once was a tool or plugin that was able to bring obj sequences to Vue. If that worked, then you could export animated objects/plants from Xfrog as obj sequence and so make use of animated plants inside Vue. But I never tried it.

One possibility would be of course to bring an animated Xfrog plant into Cinema/ Lightwave/Maya and use the Synchro plugins. But again this is something that I did not try so far.

best,
Walli

Wabe
07-20-2005, 02:53 PM
Mike,

read the screenshot i enclose. This comes up whenever you want to export anything. Here from the Conifer module (BTW, to do this one took me less than a minute).

I asked in an Internet lawyers forum once wether something like this is legal or not, especially because they don't tell before you bought it. They said no, not legal really and maybe i can take them to court. But do i want this? No. Especially because who knows really what is legal and what not. Normally you know when you leave the court.

But i think this is a real turnoff for their packages. I would love to know how they do that with the Max plugin they have as well. As mentioned before, they could be the absolutel heros if they would be a little less restrictive.

Walli
07-20-2005, 03:25 PM
I think they would win, if you take them to court ;-)

The reason is this. As far as I understand, Onyx tools are procedural plant generators. You "simply" drag some sliders and get a nice (hopefully) flower.
Therefore this is something, that more or less is produced by the software, not by the user.

Itīs something different, if you really have to model something, or if you only drag some sliders. The only problem I see is, if they donīt tell you that, before you buy the software.

Wabe
07-20-2005, 03:35 PM
Yes and no Walli. Every software is something where you change some settings and get a result. This is nothing specific about Onyx packages. The same in XFrog, it only looks different. The same in Photoshop and every software you name.

To avoid that you must write your own software and even this is only playing with predefined options when you look down to the bottom.

However, i don't complain (anymore). I only talk about that so that others know what they can expect.

Again, i love this packages. They are the top stars of vegetation creators. And i feel really sad that they are so unknown and not rated as they should be.

Walli
07-20-2005, 03:46 PM
Yes and no Walli. Every software is something where you change some settings and get a result. This is nothing specific about Onyx packages. The same in XFrog, it only looks different. The same in Photoshop and every software you name.

Well, if you think you can create a nice plant by dragging some sliders in Xfrog, then you will fail. You will have to do it on your own.
Modeling a character in Max or Cinema? Thatīs completly up to the user, you only get tools to accomplish something.

I donīt know Onyx, but I think you simply could save the parameters of the different sliders. Itīs not modeling what you are doing in Onyx (I assume). You have a predefined range and never can leave this range. So you always rely to what Onyx delivers to you as prebuilt model. You only can modify this model (or parameter set)

Photoshop - if you just use some built in filters to modify a photograph, then you are right. But if someone paints a picture with Photoshop, then it is his work, not that of Photoshop.

Wabe
07-20-2005, 04:04 PM
We become a little philosophical here.

You agree that each software has its limitations and only a defined range of possibilities?

What is the difference between using a slider in TreePro to select a brush in Photoshop and draw a line?

Ease of use can't be copyrighted. As well as the amount of features a software has.

Other example. A camera can only do one thing. Making photos. You can select a focus, a shutter and some very limited other things. Does that mean all the photos you do with the camera are copyrighted by the company that builds the camera? No, it is my creative use that makes something unique out of it. As it is with TreePro. I agree, the settings that come with the softweare are copyrighted, no question. All others are a unique setting i do with the features the software allows.

But as i said, it becomes philosophical now and we should stop it probably not the purpose of this thread/forum.

Mike.H
07-20-2005, 06:30 PM
back to the onyx copyright disclaimer:

i read it as: all the models belongs to onyx so a onyx user cant resell the model, but you(the original user) is still allowed to export a model to vue/max/c4d/maya etc and render it there.

More or less the same situation with poser/daz models in other words.

I could be wrong of course, but thatīs how i understands it.

Wabe
07-20-2005, 07:46 PM
That is how it is meant Mike.

But the situation is a little different. DAZ sells models/textures and of course these are copyrighted.

With Onyx of course the models they provide are copyrighted too. But when i create a tree from scratch, even when it only means to "play" with sliders it is my original work i would say. As a model done in Maya, Rhino, or any other modeller. They don't claim all models theres only because they have provided the software with a more or less good interface.

Anyway, let's go on to a more interesting subject. Becomes a little boring.

Megalodon
07-20-2005, 09:23 PM
Okay...

If you loook at my four original examples on the first page of this thread...

From top to bottom...

1. Archimenes - 7.72mb - 194,764 polygons
2. Amaryllis - 1.15mb - 32,982 polygons
3. Dahlia - 2.62mb - 65,372 polygons
4. Merendera - 2.89mb - 112,250 polygons

You can also reduce the polygon count within the program. It all comes with UV info and texture maps - plus of course you can always replace the textures with your own.

Yeah, I don't like the limitations of not being able to swap models.... but for the ease of use this program provides, IMO it far outweighs the negatives.

Megalodon

Mike.H
07-21-2005, 12:47 AM
Thankīs megalodon for posting those numbers, and yes the onyx flower app looks worth itīs price in weight.

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