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View Full Version : Did I mess up??!! maya- rig question


KingMob
10-22-2002, 09:33 PM
Ok so I made a rig, got it almsot all weighted, and then want to do facial aniamtion (blend shapes hopefully) should I have done this first...I am using poly proxy on a sub-d model, using seperate layers to hide the sub-d surface....how shall I got about this?

When I duplicate my poly proxy I can do very little with it...any help would be appreciated as always.

goosh
10-22-2002, 10:57 PM
I believe there is a way to do the blendshapes second.. though it's a little bit weird and it hasn't really worked for me in the past.

I would have done the blendshapes before you do the skinning. :eek:

G

KingMob
10-22-2002, 10:58 PM
to that I say "d'oh!!!"

I kinda figured that...I wonder should I just scrap it or what?

Man that sucks, I thought I was done rigging him haha.

tobyWong
10-23-2002, 10:45 AM
Look up Changing an object's deformation order in maya's help. From what I remember it's pretty strait forward. Hope you didn't unbind him already!~!!

W00t!
-Toby

KingMob
10-23-2002, 11:00 PM
hm ok, that makes sense, but I can't "deform" the object for some reason, I duplicate it, make the deformed version, and then try and make blend shape, the computer calculates, seems like it should work, and then when i look at my blend shape sliders, i get nothing....any ideas?

man rigging is a tricky mistress!

tobyWong
10-24-2002, 04:52 AM
Ha! Wow... I'm just getting back into maya after 8 or so months of using max. I'm remembering all sorts of crap. :D

Anyway, I messed around with it, it should work if you set your create blendshape options to(when you make the blendshape): Default, check the exclusive box, create new partition. THEN change the deformation order. I'm not sure why, but if it works, who am I to ask questions ;)

Peace,
-Toby

KingMob
10-24-2002, 04:57 AM
cool I will try that..thanks for the help man!

tobyWong
10-24-2002, 05:22 AM
Oooh... I couldn't help it and dug around, the create new partition option makes a separate deformer set. So it's completely independant of the bind and vica versa (I think...) so they work together but never affect eachother. And if thats right you might not even have to change deformation order, it SHOULD work strait away. If thats the case, this is how I'm doing blendshape from now on! Anyone know better? Thats the best I could do.

-Toby

KingMob
10-24-2002, 05:26 AM
wait, how do you do that? do you need to use smooth bind? or will rigid bind also work? or is that a dumb question?

tobyWong
10-24-2002, 06:07 AM
It does it automatically when you choose new partition set (I'm not sure, but I think...) As far as I know bind type should not matter. Did you get it working on your guy BTW?

-Toby

KingMob
10-24-2002, 06:21 AM
gotta finish some work, but I am very anxious to find out if it works....I really do not want to start the riggin over

I will let you know.

gmask
10-24-2002, 06:28 AM
You'll need to reorder the deforamtions after apllying the blendshapes. Right click on the object that is being deformad with blendshapoes and then choose inputs->complete list. Fromt here you middle mouse drag the blendshape so that it is before the other deformations.

KingMob
10-24-2002, 07:30 AM
odd it keeps saying no deformable object selected when I try to make a shape...the objects are the same tho, it also takes a REALLY long time to update before it says that.

man-o-man I was excited about this working...dang.

any ideas?

gmask
10-24-2002, 07:52 AM
So in the history operations list for the skinned object is there a skin cluster node and blendshape node? If the Skin is at the top of the list then you should be okay. If the If the Blend is at the top you shoul dbeable to drag it down past the SKin cluster.. I think if you got that error that you did not drag it far enough?

You may wish to practice on a simpler skin.

gmask
10-24-2002, 07:53 AM
Oh and also you may bebale to just check your options in the make blendshape options and set advanced deformation order to be front of chain.

KingMob
10-24-2002, 07:58 AM
HEY WAIT...IT IS WORKING!@!!

sorta...but his arms are going back to default, but his face )which I tweaked) is not...and everytime I drag it, one stays up top...like its duplicating?!

soo strange..but sooo close!

KingMob
10-24-2002, 08:21 AM
Ok so I got it to work..sort of.

His face deforms, the poly proxy works PERFECT< but when i show the sub div layer...only the morph poop works now....
whats the dilly yo.

KingMob
10-24-2002, 08:56 AM
ok

I found out whats ACTUALLY going on.

THe morph target is resetting the arms and legs to bind pose (all i want to morph is the face) BUT in Poly Proxy mode, it works perfect...

I can use the joints and only the face morphs...any ideas?

sooo close I can taste it!

tobyWong
10-24-2002, 08:59 AM
Oooh... I don't know too much about sub d's I'll screw around wiht it for a sec see if I can get it going tho. Hmmm... you have a link for poly proxy binding sub d's?

-Toby

KingMob
10-24-2002, 09:01 AM
you have a link for poly proxy binding sub d's?

not sure what you mean by that,

Basically I am using the poly proxy to animate cause the sub-ds be so slow!

is that what you mean?oh and thanks man! i really appreciate you trying to help me.

tobyWong
10-24-2002, 09:05 AM
Oh shit... my bad, I was thinkinng of something else. You mean the sub-d poly cage...sorry I been out of it for a while. :) I'll post If I figure it out.


peace
-Toby

tobyWong
10-24-2002, 09:31 AM
Ok... did you bind the sub d directly? (i.e.: select sub-d + skeleton> bind) or did you have some way of binding only the poly cage?

Faster the awnser is the better ;)

peace
-Toby

tobyWong
10-24-2002, 10:58 AM
Ok so I got it to work on the sub d I bound... I didn't do anything special to bind the polycage(which you might have I'm not sure...I'm not really up to date on sub-d's :P)

But you just make the blendshape Like I mentioned, then change the deformation order to the second from the bottom (my deformation order ended up looking like[bottom to top]):Tweak, BlendShape, SkinCluster, Subd Add Topology. Hope it works, let me know
:D I'll be binding a sub d character(hopefully) in a week or so; So it's always good stuff to know...But what I really want is to figure out Goosh's setup. Now thats good shit ;)


Anyway, lemme know.

Peace
-Toby

KingMob
10-24-2002, 10:26 PM
ok so Here my file...I try and switch the blendshape and the tweak but it doesnt matter...

any ideas?

See the poly proxy works great, but the sub-d does not...Like the poly proxy only affects the face, but the sub-d resets the arms and legs to binding as it slides...I am so confused...and sad.

gmask
10-24-2002, 10:52 PM
Your blendshape should be before all those skinclusters.. can you not drag it to the end of the list?

KingMob
10-24-2002, 10:53 PM
well I have those ones, AND another set below all those....

so I am confused by that also...and if I drage the TOP on (shown) down, it just duplicates it...

gmask
10-24-2002, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by KingMob
well I have those ones, AND another set below all those....

so I am confused by that also...and if I drage the TOP on (shown) down, it just duplicates it...

So you create a poly cage which you bound. The blendShapes are supposed to be morphing the poly cage and then after that you've applied a poly to sub-d covnersion. Maybe if you delete the poly to sub you'll beable to drag the blendshape to the bottom of the list and then reapply the poly to sub-d?

gmask
10-24-2002, 11:09 PM
OK I'm playing around with a similair setup here and I noticed that in this case you will have two blendshape nodes.

I also noticed that I moved the target poly shape before I converted it to a subd proxy object and when I use that as a target for the skinned sub-d proxy model it screws it up.


Anyway I think the best way to do is to setup the rigging and then apply the blendshapes and then apply the poly cage proxy as sub-d conversion.

KingMob
10-24-2002, 11:15 PM
"Anyway I think the best way to do is to setup the rigging and then apply the blendshapes and then apply the poly cage proxy as sub-d conversion."

can you clarify that?

so I make my model, make it sub d, bind it, apply blendshapes, THEN make it poly proxy?

or should I make it sub d, do blendshapes, bind it, THEN make poly proxy?

sorry if that's a dumb question

gmask
10-24-2002, 11:15 PM
I tested by above workflow and it does seem to be best. it does not produce double blendshape nodes so I think it is the way to go.

I guess the issue is how to delete your sub-d conversion no that you have created it???

gmask
10-24-2002, 11:20 PM
To delete the sub go into the operations history right click on the poly to sub node and then open the hypergraph. Click on the input and output connections and you should see a partition connected to poly to subd shape node. Delte them both.

Now you should still have the proxy skinned. Apply the beldnshapes and then select the cage again and convert it to a sub-d.

gmask
10-24-2002, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by KingMob
"Anyway I think the best way to do is to setup the rigging and then apply the blendshapes and then apply the poly cage proxy as sub-d conversion."

can you clarify that?

so I make my model, make it sub d, bind it, apply blendshapes, THEN make it poly proxy?

or should I make it sub d, do blendshapes, bind it, THEN make poly proxy?

sorry if that's a dumb question

DO NOT MAKE IT SUB D FIRST!
Take the poly cage, bind it, blend it then convert it to a sub-d poly proxy. You want your low res driving the hi rez not the other way around.

Sorry if this is confusing...

KingMob
10-24-2002, 11:35 PM
ok last dumb question (yeah right)

when I have done that before, binded a lowpoly then converted to sub d, it looses all binding information and in my test a while ago it lost the blend shape controlls to...is there a way to stop that from happening ?

gmask
10-24-2002, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by KingMob
when I have done that before, binded a lowpoly then converted to sub d, it looses all binding information and in my test a while ago it lost the blend shape controlls to...is there a way to stop that from happening ?

Make sure that proxy object is turned on in the poly to sub-d options.

I just tested this for myself and it works..

KingMob
10-24-2002, 11:50 PM
ok I think this is just beyond me.

I don't knwo what to do. I tried what you said but then everything I do stops affecting it...this is sooooo frusterating. I really appreciate the help tho.

I think i might just try and start over. Blend shapes, at this point in my learning, seem overly complicated. Why can't you just deform the intial mesh, set a pose or whatever and then go to the next, why all this duplicating of the shape etc.

Oh well... guess I won't be able to finish this thing.

thanks for the help tho, My hypergraph is just soooo giant right now I get lost just looking at it. I can't even find those nodes haha.

KingMob
10-24-2002, 11:53 PM
haha I NEVER noticed that option


IT WORKS

thanks dude...
I owe you a keg of beer.

maybe four kegs of beer.

gmask
10-24-2002, 11:53 PM
BTW.. Are you blendshaping whole copies of the body? IS the blendshapes for facial animation? If so then there is a more economical way to do it.

You should use sets of clusters for the blendshpes that way you are not storing whole copies of the model to only control a small part of the model.

What you do is make the copies of the model and edit them for your facuial exprssions then. Make sets of the exact same CV's on the copies and the base poly cage. Then you can create blendshapes between just the clusters.

gmask
10-25-2002, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by KingMob
My hypergraph is just soooo giant right now I get lost just looking at it. I can't even find those nodes haha.

That's why I was suggesting that you try to make a simple setup so that it is easier to debug.

I did all my testing for this by making a revolved "hotdog" and then giving a simple IK setup. There's nothing worse than trying to figure out a setup that takes minutes to update whenever you touch one thing. A good setup should not take that long to update. I'm glad that you are sticking with this.. don't give up.:thumbsup:

KingMob
10-25-2002, 12:06 AM
yeah me to, I really didn't want to give up..but I thought it was a lost cause...

wish there was a clean up option hehe.

where can I get more info on making cluster sets?

gmask
10-25-2002, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by KingMob
where can I get more info on making cluster sets?

You just open the windows->relationship editors->sets window and then select some cv's and then use the create set function.


After you have made the CV sets for each model you just select then and run the blendhsape function the same as you would with a full mesh.

KingMob
10-25-2002, 04:02 AM
so everything is working GREAT!!!

but


how can I make my bottom jaw, teeth and gums follow when the mouth is open, closed etc... any ideas?

gmask
10-25-2002, 04:15 AM
Originally posted by KingMob
so everything is working GREAT!!!

but


how can I make my bottom jaw, teeth and gums follow when the mouth is open, closed etc... any ideas?
Hmmm.. well you can hierachy based blendshapes so I guess if you included the teeth and gums in the CV sets that would do the trick.

KingMob
10-25-2002, 04:32 AM
what about doing aset driven on the slider to control x-y-z and rotation?

gmask
10-25-2002, 04:34 AM
Originally posted by KingMob
what about doing aset driven on the slider to control x-y-z and rotation?

Totally a valid way to do it. You could even set it up to work with the blendshape controls.

tobyWong
10-25-2002, 07:44 AM
Glad you got him working.... now lets see him move!

Peace
-Toby

KingMob
10-25-2002, 09:11 PM
"Totally a valid way to do it. You could even set it up to work with the blendshape controls."

sounds sweet, I am gonna play around with that today and tonight ( I am such a geek sometimes)

As for movement...VERY soon...I got most the controls in place, I want to make a few more tho.

I think I will update my thread with a few faces today tho hehe...

it's neat-o

And, seriously, thank you guys. Once again the people of cgtalk have come through in a BIG way for me. I really appreciate it, I have learned sooo much since joining this board.

Anyways once again thank you! :thumbsup:

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