Next-Gen Console CPUs Not Up to Hype

[JoeBananas]

Wow, thats a bit of an eye opener! :eek:

After reading that I've drastically revised down what I thought the next gen games would be like. I guess you do get what you pay for

[greenj2]

That was a good read, very interesting. :thumbsup:

[rooktooky]

All I know is the games on Xbox now will look a whole lot better on the next generation. I love websites like Anandtech because the tell you what developers are saying behind closed doors as opposed to all the hype during E3. If they can get Ninja Gaiden with higher res textures, full normal mapping, and HD rendering running at 60 FPS, I'll be satisfied. Who wants an $800 console anyway. I guess all that talk of one core being used strictly for AI and another strictly for physics was all lies. Now that is pretty depressing. Shame on somebody.

[Hazdaz]

OMG No way! You mean all the hype that SONY said about it's PS3 being more powerful than 10 Gods,4 donkeys and 2 goats isn't right?!? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Since when has hype EVER lived up to the cold hard facts of real life????

[noisewar]

but but but... what about the back massages Sony promised? I thought there was a whole SPE dedicated to that. :sad:

[rakmaya]

Unfortunately some of us here who also happened to work on things disagrees a little bit. Even if the console can never surpase the PC in the long run, it defenitly is more than what you pay for. When the console gets out, to assemble a PC to play equ graphics is going to be at least 600+ that is if the graphics card is under 200 bucks.

[Tryn]

while alot of the tech jargon in that article went over my head, it was still a good read. Makes me glad to be a PC gamer at heart. I didn't get the PS2 until a couple years after its release, and it might well be the same state of affairs with the PS3.

[Hazdaz]

Unfortunately some of us here who also happened to work on things disagrees a little bit. Even if the console can never surpase the PC in the long run, it defenitly is more than what you pay for. When the console gets out, to assemble a PC to play equ graphics is going to be at least 600+ that is if the graphics card is under 200 bucks.

My opinion/guess, is that the guys above that said "you get what you pay for" aren't exactly directing that to the console buyers, but instead to SONY and MS's decision to go with that IBM design - mostly for cost reasons.

So in that case, then yes, you do get what you pay for, cuz if MS and/or SONY paid the probably higher prices that Intel or AMD would have charged, then these consoles would be quite a bit more powerful than what was presented in this article. But ofcourse if SONY or MS did that, then the cost of these consoles would probably be a good bit more expensive.

Honestly either, way, the CPUs might not be quite as powerful as hyped about (yet still much more powerful than current consoles), but the GPUs are still very powerful and with enough time, this generation is going to have some amazing games that would just not possible with current console hardware. I seriously think that article went a little too far the other way - downplaying the consoles too much. These consoles are so new, that the optimal way to run games on them won't be realized for months and months after they hit the market.

[mummey]

The answer is actually quite frequently found in history; as with anything, you get what you pay for.

Quoted because this is what's important, and also is what's most forgotten.

Even if you aren't paying it in the console itself, you pay for it in the games you buy/rent.

[Solothores]

article gone :/

[samartin]

Interesting, the article is definitely a gonna...

[Supervlieg]

Duh, is anything ever up to the hype?

[Thalaxis]

I guess all that talk of one core being used strictly for AI and another strictly for physics was all lies. Now that is pretty depressing. Shame on somebody.

It's not quite that bad. That's only in the first generation. Later generation games will probably make
better use of the extra cores once the game developers get over the learning curve of making their
game engines more multithreaded.

The upshot of the article isn't that the new consoles are going to suck, it's that they're nowhere near to
being powerful enough to actually boot the PC out of dominance in the gaming industry. The PC will
continue to be the high-end platform of choice, since these consoles won't get an upgrade for 4-5 years,
while PC's will continue to evolve.

[poly-phobic]

article misteriously diapeared...

i smell something iffy...

[TheLostVertex]

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2453
There it is for you lazy people :P

This isnt much of a surprise, microsoft is cheap, and sony is always full of it. Im fine with a game cube and smash brothers for the next 2-4 years :bounce:

[sdg0919]

Here is different take on the Anandtech article, for those interested:

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050629-5054.html

[chadtheartist]

I personally don't think the PS2 nor the Xbox lived up to the hype that Sony and Microsoft promoted with their specs. But, the games still came, and people were quite happy with them. The only company that didn't hype their system specs was Nintendo, and from what I can tell people saw that as a weakness. Even though the Gamecube had some pretty good looking games too. In the end I think the system with the weakest performance won most of the market share, thus negating all that technical hoopla about power this and hi-res that.

This generation looks to be the same. It is going to be interesting to see if Sony can keep that market share now that Microsoft will be the "first" next gen system.

[bentllama]

HORSESHIT.

article fluff...and out of the ordinary from anadtech. usually they are pretty straight with thier text. this reads more like editorial rag.

some fun and correct rebuttals here:
http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=24493

[chadtheartist]

I didn't read the articles in this thread, I was just commenting on what happened last generation, and what seems to be happening this generation.

I personally don't care about the technical specs of what a system can do. That doesn't mean anything to me. All I care about is if I like the game or not. Graphics, gameplay, and content are what matters to me. Not max capabilities of this technology or that technology.

I couldn't get that article to load bentllama. :shrug:

[Kion]

Unfortunately some of us here who also happened to work on things disagrees a little bit. Even if the console can never surpase the PC in the long run, it defenitly is more than what you pay for. When the console gets out, to assemble a PC to play equ graphics is going to be at least 600+ that is if the graphics card is under 200 bucks.

I agree


HORSESHIT

I agree as well The new console's have alot of power under the hood, and gamers will be more than satisfide when they see the results, especially with second gen games.

[Kion]

andadtech has pulled the article

for an informed opinion

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050629-5054.html

[heavyness]

your going to find articles that are very PRO or very NEGATIVE about the home systems. it boils down to personal opinion [which most people writing reviews these days fail to drop and look at facts].

to be honest, die hard fans of PC gaming will never like home systems, so they will twist anything for their benefit. and surprise, surprise, there will be devs in BOTH camps putting down their own systems. some 360 devs will curse the 360, and some ps3 devs will want to kick the ps3.... once again, personal opinion. there will also be devs who love their system and never want to program on something else.

each system has its flaws and development issues, but jumping the gun this early is just stupid. wait 1 - 2 years before we start trashing systems.

[AKDesigns]

yesss!! one more point on the board for ms!

"We of course asked the obvious question: would game developers rather have 3 slow general purpose cores, or one of those cores paired with an array of specialized SPEs? The response was unanimous, everyone we have spoken to would rather take the general purpose core approach."

haha, thats wat u get sony! grrr

[DaJuice]

http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2453
There it is for you lazy people :P

That's a different article.

[heavyness]

i don't know, look powerful enough to me...

http://www.bizarreonline.net/news/images/studioupdate/nyshotnew.jpg


http://www.bizarreonline.net/index.php?action=fullnews&showcomments=1&id=32

[rakmaya]

Console development is 100 times more prefered for many developers due to the post production freedom. In PC, bug fixes, driver updates and patch issues of the OS causes a lot of pain for company. From my experience, next gen Console and new PC GPUs uses similar approach at GPU level for programmers to worry about. The CPU differences are still an issue. But we prefer to spend 4 to 6 months tuning the engine and just leave the rest for optimization for the rest of the console life time than re-creating/patches for OS issues and updates per game. Regardless of how programmers does the work, next gen PC and Console graphic designers faces same challenges. For PC, the art work in some cases takes more time to make up for low-end and very-high end players. The reasons are many and the only reason few developers don't want to jump into the console is because they are already stuck with PC and don't want to take a huge risk at next gen. The best example why console is better option businesswise is to look at Epic reagardless of what they say.

[NanoGator]

i don't know, look powerful enough to me...

http://www.bizarreonline.net/news/images/studioupdate/nyshotnew.jpg


http://www.bizarreonline.net/index.php?action=fullnews&showcomments=1&id=32

It's pretty, but it looks like this has more to do with ram than system power.

[daHund]

i don't know, look powerful enough to me...

http://www.bizarreonline.net/news/images/studioupdate/nyshotnew.jpg


http://www.bizarreonline.net/index.php?action=fullnews&showcomments=1&id=32

whats so greate an this image? the windows are just painted on the wall! the only thing you can see here are nice textures. i think a geforce 6800 should render this at 60fps too.

[DaJuice]

I don't want to comment on the article, but I agree with what was said about the screenshot above. I mean, it's a few polygons, some (relatively) high-res textures, and an ambient occlusion pass. It looks nice, but nothing to make you lean closer and go "Wow, how'd they do that?!"

[Hazdaz]

whats so greate an this image? the windows are just painted on the wall! the only thing you can see here are nice textures. i think a geforce 6800 should render this at 60fps too.

Much more than "just" a nice texture. We have bump, specular and bitmapping. High resolution - as in HD TV. That alone is damn cool. And mind you, that is just the background. Someone should piost up some of the model shots that go along with that background. I can't remember the name of that game, but there were some extremely impressive models (i.e. very high poly) shown.

[NanoGator]

It's considerably nicer than what current generation consoles can do. Yeah it's a few simple polygons with high res textures attached, it's heaps better than a few simple polygons with low res textures. Heh.

[heavyness]

this is from a racing game called Project Gotham Racing 3 [the first two sold very well and it has a solid fan base]. yes, they are polys with textures painted on [but then again, what isn't?], but look at the picture quality. no jaggies, high res textures, and these are backgrounds you'll only see for seconds as you race by at 170+ mph. all the memory in the world doesn't mean jack if you don't have a good cpu + gpu in place, and having them all talk to each other nicely.

http://www.bizarreonline.net/img/screenshots/pgr3/03.jpg

another picture.

[bentllama]

keep in mind everything else that is going on in the game as well...this is 20 sq ft from a track miles long...and 2 sides to every street...now picutre that with insane physics calculations, HDRI, advanced AI, crowd AI, particle effect hotness and everything else that is the new sexy...then you may understand why a still shot of 20 sq ft of track looks a little less complex than screenshots from other genres of next gen games...

i have personally seen this game in motion early on...and I am floored...just wait until ship.

[heavyness]

keep in mind everything else that is going on in the game as well...this is 20 sq ft from a track miles long...and 2 sides to every street...now picutre that with insane physics calculations, HDRI, advanced AI, crowd AI, particle effect hotness and everything else that is the new sexy...then you may understand why a still shot of 20 sq ft of track looks a little less complex than screenshots from other genres of next gen games...

i have personally seen this game in motion early on...and I am floored...just wait until ship.

...and online with your own custom soundtrack thumping in the background. can't wait for this and the next Burnout to play online....

"A '68 Coupe is all I need. So don't you dare mess with my mean machine"

[bentllama]

...and online with your own custom soundtrack thumping in the background. can't wait for this and the next Burnout to play online....

"A '68 Coupe is all I need. So don't you dare mess with my mean machine"

for racing and sports games, a custom soundtrack option is warranted...for a narrative genre, NO.

[tester1111]

wipeout PS3/360 :drool:

[rendermania]

keep in mind everything else that is going on in the game as well...this is 20 sq ft from a track miles long...and 2 sides to every street...now picutre that with insane physics calculations, HDRI, advanced AI, crowd AI, particle effect hotness and everything else that is the new sexy...then you may understand why a still shot of 20 sq ft of track looks a little less complex than screenshots from other genres of next gen games...

I see nothing particularly impressive here. There are screenshots showing wires of trackside buildings. Zero geometry detail. Just nice textures. The fence in the shot is tiled texture with alpha and some blur on it. The trees look like repeating clipmaps, again with some motionblur. The smoke is billboard sprites. You can see the line where they clip the road. The reflection on the car looks faked. Environment mapping. There's also lots of bloom/blur type of trickery used here to mask the seams. The source engine looks very similar to this when you switch on one of those bloom mods for HL2. Nothing here that would knock a PC gamer off his feet really. And I'm pretty sure you won't be able to race off the track in this game, because there's probably nothing beyond those clipmap trees.

I'm sure it'll be an ok looking game when its finished, but it simply shows that the "next-gen" consoles can't do much that a PC with a beefy graphics card can't already do.
Much better than the old consoles obviously, but hardly what I'd call a PC-killer.

[tozz]

Even the NES CPU handled a great story, I think next-gen will handle that too. As for graphics, don't let them steal the fun out of the game. A racing game that doesn't flow in 60fps 101% of the time isn't a good racing game imo (doesn't matter if it looks better than reality) :)

[PhilOsirus]

Geez! First of all, that PGR3 screenshot is cubes with nice textures. It's not like that lighting is dynamic (I doubt it anyway, it's a racing game). Anyway, consoles are going to be too expensive, games are going to be too expensive, dev time is going to be too long, and XBox 360 and PS3 will not be as different from one another in both hardware capacity and game library, so this will only make gamers wait longer before actually buying anything, which will certainly lead to some major money losses early on after the consoles' releases.

If only there was just ONE console made equally by MS Sony and Nintendo:p The market would not be split in three and all gamers could buy ANY game, which would send individual game sales through the roof (no more "I'm not buying this game sadly cause it's on a console I don't have). Argh:/

[Kion]

Anyway, consoles are going to be too expensive, games are going to be too expensive, dev time is going to be too long, and XBox 360 and PS3 will not be as different from one another in both hardware capacity and game library, so this will only make gamers wait longer before actually buying anything, which will certainly lead to some major money losses early on after the consoles' releases.


just wait and see.

I see nothing particularly impressive here. There are screenshots showing wires of trackside buildings. Zero geometry detail. Just nice textures. The fence in the shot is tiled texture with alpha and some blur on it. The trees look like repeating clipmaps, again with some motionblur. The smoke is billboard sprites. You can see the line where they clip the road. The reflection on the car looks faked. Environment mapping. There's also lots of bloom/blur type of trickery used here to mask the seams.


You guys are judging an object(building, fence) that is going to be whizzing past you at 70 mph. It doesn't need all that extra detail. Putting spec maps and all that other crap on there when its just going to be a blur is a wast of time and resources. I'm saying that building is just a background object, and it still looks pretty good. I would imagine that if the building were something you could interact with(half-life) it would look alot better. You spend more of your time working on things that will be seen up close rather than things that are in the background that will be blured and fogged etc. I think it looks good, and from this point will only get better. And don't know what pc games you have been playing but that looks better than what I've seen in half life 2 hdri (not to discredit them).

[Hazdaz]

If only there was just ONE console made equally by MS Sony and Nintendo:p The market would not be split in three and all gamers could buy ANY game, which would send individual game sales through the roof (no more "I'm not buying this game sadly cause it's on a console I don't have). Argh:/

Worst idea ever. The whole reason that consoles have developed as much as they have, is BECAUSE of competition, not despite it! Hell, if there was one common HW spec (:cough: PC :cough:) then why subsidize the cost of the unit to gain marketshare? Each console would be atleast $150 more expensive. Also the console gaming market is so huge, that even the 3rd largest console maker - Nintendo for instance - can sell enough top games to make a very nice profit.

[Neil]

I remember the GT4 screenshots blowing me away when i first saw those like 3 years ago too. Just concentrate on the physics of the cars and dynamics when it comes to racing games.

[PhilOsirus]

Worst idea ever. The whole reason that consoles have developed as much as they have, is BECAUSE of competition, not despite it! Hell, if there was one common HW spec (:cough: PC :cough:) then why subsidize the cost of the unit to gain marketshare? Each console would be atleast $150 more expensive. Also the console gaming market is so huge, that even the 3rd largest console maker - Nintendo for instance - can sell enough top games to make a very nice profit.

Yeah well that's great for Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft, but the fact is consoles don't make any "advancements", that is done in the PC world. And since there are multiple consoles developers and publishers are constantly losing market share. Imagine if Zelda had been released on a unified platform, or Final Fantasy XI, all of those games' sales would have almost doubled I'm sure.

[rakmaya]

Just because a game gets published in all 3 consoles doesn't mean the game sales will double. I have worked on projects and I can tell you this never happens. In fact most sold games are really sold on either one or at most 2 console release. FF, GTA, Pokemon etc.. are good example. When a game is released on all 3 consoles, it is impossible for the developers to keep the game optimized to run at full power on all 3 consoles and one way or another it loose potential in few platforms. This also has to do with reputation. When a lot of RPG gamers think about PS3, FF and Xesnosaga series comes to their mind and vice-versa. Creating FF for XBOX360 doesn't mean a double or even close to double sales.

[PhilOsirus]

Just because a game gets published in all 3 consoles doesn't mean the game sales will double. I have worked on projects and I can tell you this never happens. In fact most sold games are really sold on either one or at most 2 console release. FF, GTA, Pokemon etc.. are good example. When a game is released on all 3 consoles, it is impossible for the developers to keep the game optimized to run at full power on all 3 consoles and one way or another it loose potential in few platforms. This also has to do with reputation. When a lot of RPG gamers think about PS3, FF and Xesnosaga series comes to their mind and vice-versa. Creating FF for XBOX360 doesn't mean a double or even close to double sales.

That's why I said if there was just ONE console, not three, game sales would be MUCH higher because the game would be made just for one console and all gamers could buy it.

[Hazdaz]

That's why I said if there was just ONE console, not three, game sales would be MUCH higher because the game would be made just for one console and all gamers could buy it.


WOW! :banghead:
So with that 'logic' then ALL PC games are sales successes right? :rolleyes: After all, what your describing is essentially what the PC gaming market is all about (same platform with multiple vendors).

Having the console gaming market fall down to just 2 players sounds scary - let alone having only ONE console system out. First rule of thumb when it comes to consumer goods is that "competition is good"... and you just want to throw that all away and have ONE console hardware spec?? :eek:

[PhilOsirus]

WOW! :banghead:
So with that 'logic' then ALL PC games are sales successes right? :rolleyes: After all, what your describing is essentially what the PC gaming market is all about (same platform with multiple vendors).

Having the console gaming market fall down to just 2 players sounds scary - let alone having only ONE console system out. First rule of thumb when it comes to consumer goods is that "competition is good"... and you just want to throw that all away and have ONE console hardware spec?? :eek:

One console only does not mean it would be like the PC market. It means the same thing we have now as far as consoles go, but only one instead of three. Sure there would be the whole competition problem, and it would never happen anyway, hence it's purely theoretical. But the fact is ALL game developers and publishers are losing large market shares because the console market is split. The worst in all this is that the actual consoles are extremely similar, none offering anything very different from the other. In fact, the differences between the consoles is in my opinion not major enough to overcome the negative aspects of having a split market. Gamers, publishers and developers lose a lot of money because Sony, MS, and Nintendo all want to be #1. The companies have to spend more money in marketing (because sometimes games released for different consoles are not released at the same time), they have to spend a lot of money in making ports, and in the end they lose money because not all gamers have the same consoles so when games are exclusive to one console (Zelda, Halo, Final Fantasy) it is very rare that a gamer will buy a new console just for a game.

So yes having 3 consoles sucks to some extent:p

[KayosIII]

Quite honestly I can see the Console PC market diverging in the near future... realistically the next gen consoles look to me like a PC which is less expandable, uses a HDTV instead of a monitor, and can run games, watch movies & listen to music without loading a full operating system. (In Microsofts case - they heavily discourage loading a full operating system - which I find quite frankly - pathetic, manipulative, blatantly mean behaviour).

So would I like a PC that I don't have load everything in order to play games, watch movies, Hell yeah. Would I mind terribly if It was not as fast as a traditional PC. Probably not. Does the lack of expandability worry me. Yeah it does a little though you can do a lot with just a usb bus.

[TumikSmacker]

I feel like console technology comes out in twos. NES and SMS came out in the 80s, the 2nd gen of that era was SNES and Genesis. SNES and Genesis being waaaaay better. Then the breakthrough came with 3d - Playstation. Nintendo was supposed to come out with a 32 bit system but didn't. N64 was like the 2nd gen of 3d. Then PS2 and Xbox came along, the pattern keeps repeating itself. Meaning that when Xbox 360 and PS3 come out they will be the 2nd gen. PS4 will be revolutionary. PS3 is just perfecting what PS2 couldn't, same with Xbox.

[t-man152]

Having the console gaming market fall down to just 2 players sounds scary

well until a couple of years ago console wars was a 2 player game. Nintendo VS Sega
Atari vs Intellivision. ect ect

[CelticArtist]

which is why MS had Fable for the Xbox, i know a ton of RPG fans who bought the xbox just for Fable, personally, i'm waiting till Lost Chapters comes out with higher res textures and more content for the PC. I'm a PC Gamer at heart, ever since Wolfenstein 3D and Duke Nukem (the original), but i love consoles too, they provide a different feel for gaming for me, much more interactive. For example, i'm playing Prince of Persia Warrior Within now, that game is out on the pc, but without a gamepad, it'd be horrible, it might control better, but it wouldn't feel right. As long as consoles can keep that excitement that pc gaming can sometimes lack, i'll always own at least one console, be it PS3 or 360. And as for power/graphics, the new consoles can't do anything a high-end pc can't already do, but, the games will be designed to work on it, so you'll see alot less system problems on a console than a pc, eg. Battlefield 2 would actually run on a next gen console (i'm guessing here) where it doesn't run on 3/4 of pc's out there.

[Kion]

the new consoles can't do anything a high-end pc can't already do

Just wait and see

[CelticArtist]

Just wait and see

be happy too, if they prove me wrong, i'll gladly eat my words, but so far, i don't see anything that can't be done with a good pc (keyword: good), physic, normal maps, ambient occlussion, all of that can already be done in a pc game, just need a nice system to handle it, the nice thing about the consoles is that they will be able to handle it (or at least fake it) and still cost only a few hundred bucks, That's where they have the advantage imo.

[Thalaxis]

be happy too, if they prove me wrong, i'll gladly eat my words, but so far, i don't see anything that can't be done with a good pc (keyword: good), physic, normal maps, ambient occlussion, all of that can already be done in a pc game, just need a nice system to handle it, the nice thing about the consoles is that they will be able to handle it (or at least fake it) and still cost only a few hundred bucks, That's where they have the advantage imo.

The other advantage is that they are essentially static platforms. They're constant. With
PC titles, developers have to support older hardware and still be able to run their game
well, and at the same time exploit the latest and greatest features of the current state of
the art toys in order to cover the entire market. Even though these two new consoles
won't be able to compete with high-end PC's computationally -- especially with dual and
quad core processors coming down the pike -- they'll be a far smaller number of non-moving
targets to optimize for.

[CelticArtist]

The other advantage is that they are essentially static platforms. They're constant. With
PC titles, developers have to support older hardware and still be able to run their game
well, and at the same time exploit the latest and greatest features of the current state of
the art toys in order to cover the entire market. Even though these two new consoles
won't be able to compete with high-end PC's computationally -- especially with dual and
quad core processors coming down the pike -- they'll be a far smaller number of non-moving
targets to optimize for.

very good point, i'm continually amazed by the level of detail companies push through the xbox and the ps2, simply because they know exactly (especially after so long on the market) what these systems can handle, looking at ps2 games from even 2 years ago compared to what we have now, it's simply amazing, you'd think it was a different system just because companies have learned how to program for it.

[Thalaxis]

very good point, i'm continually amazed by the level of detail companies push through the xbox and the ps2, simply because they know exactly (especially after so long on the market) what these systems can handle, looking at ps2 games from even 2 years ago compared to what we have now, it's simply amazing, you'd think it was a different system just because companies have learned how to program for it.

This generation will probably be similar, only there's more processing power and bandwidth
available plus a need for a new approach to engine design.

[pearson]

I'm extremely skeptical of sony's claims. After the whole "emotion engine" (PS2) thing... :rolleyes: That was supposed to replace workstations for CAD/CAM stuff because it was soooo powerful. Yeah. Sure.

And rather than show any shame for the outrageous exagerations of the last system launch, they are doing the same thing again with the PS3!

I'm just waiting for Maya to be ported over to the PS3 so I can stop using the win/tel snail machine I'm stuck with now. :bowdown:

[PhilOsirus]

I'm extremely skeptical of sony's claims. After the whole "emotion engine" (PS2) thing... :rolleyes: That was supposed to replace workstations for CAD/CAM stuff because it was soooo powerful. Yeah. Sure.

And rather than show any shame for the outrageous exagerations of the last system launch, they are doing the same thing again with the PS3!

I'm just waiting for Maya to be ported over to the PS3 so I can stop using the win/tel snail machine I'm stuck with now. :bowdown:

One thing that was NOT false about the PS2 presentation were the tech demos, which were all surpassed eventually, contrary to popular mythos that has been repeated numerous times abotu how the FFVIII real-time dance scene is still not achievable on PS2, which has been prooven wrong already. But anything Sony says about what the PS can do outside the gaming world, well that's usually rubbish, but who cares really, in the end it IS a gaming machine and Sony has always acted like it wasn't one, but it always continues to be very much so a gaming machine;)

[OamadeusO]

Well I think that Killzone demo has been proven fake.

IIRC the final hardwares not been decided yet so any "demo" is just an approximation.

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