Apple to save the movie industry?

[Hazdaz]

There is nothing wrong with the movie industry that some original and creative ideas, lower movie theater prices and just less over all hoopla wouldn't solve.

[smoothoperator]

Appart from the obvious as stated above.

[SovereignKnight]

Anything to keep them from making more overpriced computers.

[Beamtracer]

What's this got to do with Apple?

This is about Steve Jobs, head of Pixar. Like him or hate him, he is still one of the most influential people in the motion picture business.

It's helped sales of the music industry with itunes with the technology to prevent swapping or sharring of files. Apple's own codec for audio.
I see the same thing happening with the movie industry...and here's the first step.

The audio codec used on the iTunes store is called 'AAC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding)' (Advanced Audio Coding), which is part of the MPEG specification, and designed to replace MP3. It's the competitors who are using closed proprietary non-standard codecs.

I think you're getting confused with DRM (Digital Rights Management) software, which is a different thing. Apple is forming licensing agreements for its DRM, for example with Motorola for their iTunes telephone.

I don't think there are any legitimate online music stores that don't use some kind of DRM. If you don't like DRM on iTunes, there's a guy in Norway called DVD John (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvd_john) who can disable it.

[tuna]

I don't think there are any legitimate online music stores that don't use some kind of DRM. If you don't like DRM on iTunes, there's a guy in Norway called DVD John (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvd_john) who can disable it.

I thought AllofMP3.com did this. They allow you to choose from formats of your choice (MP3 - MPEG-1 Layer 3, WMA - Windows Media Audio, OGG - Ogg Vorbis, MPC - MusePack, AAC - MPEG-4 AAC, etc.) And at the bitrate you want.

[pogonip]

They wanna save the movie industry ?? Umm try lowering the admission price. I pay 9 dollers to see a movie in the evening and even matinee pricess are 7.50 ..ok so on top of that 3-4 dollers for candy and 3-4 dollers for a soda so in the evening for one person your pay at least 15 dollers if you wanna have snacks during the movie . I'd rather buy the DVD for the same price and watch the movie in my underwear at home . Yah sure I like seeing the big hits like Batman returns in the theatre because it's an experience with the sound and huge screen but 99% of other movies like this weekends Heerbie or Bewitched ???? Come on ... anyways here is to hoping the movie industry pulls there head out of there arse .

[CelticArtist]

we've got about 12 pictures in production right now, and more on the way...did i miss something where the movie industry needed saving? people will pay to see movies, 9 bucks a ticket won't change that.

[spinnage]

The movie industry does not need saving. How many industries can consistently turn out bad products and still be profitable? When you take a look at foreign rights, dvd sales, tv rights, etc., even the bombs of the bombs are financially successful.

[leuey]

Look - the movie industry is *not* doing particularly well, it doesn't take a whole lot of research to see that. It doesn't mean they're going to dissappear, but they are not as profitable. And, as broadband continues to proliferate and codecs get better - people WILL start downloading movies as much as they are songs. The music industry has been hurt by pirating and the movie industry sees the writing on the wall (recent supreme court rulings may help, but won't solve the problem).

Of course Apple will attempt to do the same thing w/ Movies as they did w/ music. It's just a matter of time (and so will a bunch of other people). It's probably a few years off from being available or profitable - but nobody's rushing movie players to market.

Other content publishers (movies and music) will have to learn to deal w/ what the games industry has had to deal with since it's inception. If a new biz model allows for some additional profit (remember, nobody thought video tapes would take off) then the industry will pursue it. Apple clearly has some credibility in this area.

-Greg

[CelticArtist]

listening to a song on my ipod and seeing a moving in 640x480 on my computer are two very different things, i want movies big, Big, BIG (thinkin imax here) as do alot of other people. Yes, downloadable movies may make an impact on dvd sales, but not on ticket sales. Right, now, movies make money off of 3 things, Ticket sales (which is where most small movies can potentially make big bucks - ala My Big Fat Greek Wedding), DVD/Video sales, and marketing (toys, memorabilia, etc.) now, of those 3, only DVD sales would potentially be significantly hit by movie downloads, and i seriously doubt even significantly, the music industry hasn't lost that much money to illegal downloads, they just are whiny (Well, RIAA is...and Metallica), they're afraid of the 'potential' not necessarily what is happening (and don't give me the "but sales were down 5million last year" what that actually is is that sales were down 2% which is not a good thing, but not exactly indicative of a huge problem). Hollywood is bloated, i'll give you that, but it's not napster 2.0 or bittorrent 20 that will bring it's downfall, it's itself, and not for a while yet, at least...i hope not, i live and work here, i don't want it coming down anytime soon.

[leuey]

I like seeing movies on big screens too - and I don't think piracy will have a huge impact on ticket sales (but it will have some - more than concerts if you want to maintain that analogy).

(btw - it doesn't take a lot to burn a downloaded movie to a DVD and watch it on your 52" plasma screen, right?)

But it will definately have an impact on DVD sales and rentals (and does it really matter when we're only dealing w/ the combined bottom line?). Look, piracy does effect music, games, software, and soon movies - in a very real way. Yeah - they're whiney, but they *are* being stolen from.

At any rate - I think the point is that an iTunes like service for movies will help to recover some of the losses due to piracy. That's all.

Personally I'm looking forward to Netflix on my Tivo a lot more than 'iFlix' or whatever they decide to call it.

-Greg

[LordShaitan]

But it will definately have an impact on DVD sales and rentals (and does it really matter when we're only dealing w/ the combined bottom line?). Look, piracy does effect music, games, software, and soon movies - in a very real way. Yeah - they're whiney, but they *are* being stolen from.


This is true, the mass majority of profit from movies is in the DVD and VHS sales. Little is actually made in the movie theater and little is made for the actual theater from those ticket sales (come on, think why a bag of popcorn and soda costs 9 bucks, thats whey they earn money from)

I for one still love to see movies on the big screen and still buy a dvd when i can. A great example for myself would be Kung Pow, ill admit i downloaded it but after literally watching it 60 times on my computer one day i saw it in walmart for 15 bucks, and bought it. I also bought it for 3 other friends. On the negative someone else in my same situation might think "well i have it on my computer, why buy it" Having a service like itunes for this might be very handy, but i would still would like to have a DVD even though im paying for the disc, the plastic, and the shipping that went into producing it (in that way to it feels as though im supporting more then just the movie industry but all those jobs inbetween)

[Beamtracer]

I think downloadable movies could effect ticket sales.

Home screens keep getting bigger with more resolution. Soon HDTV will be the norm. Meanwhile, theater/cinema screens keep getting worse. They get smaller (with multiplexes) and their resolution gets worse (eg Star Wars shot on video and transferred to film looked really bad). Plus, you get some idiots sitting near you in the theater munching on their food stuff and crackling plastic wrappers.

Now, imagine you have iTunes for video. You can choose from 50,000 movies. It comes in instantly. You watch it in High Definition. You've got Dolby surround sound.

I think that would appeal to a lot of people. Maybe it's the advent of the plasma screen that's been hurting theaters. In the future, when there's also HD movie downloads, theaters are going to find it even tougher.

[jbo]

I thought AllofMP3.com did this. They allow you to choose from formats of your choice (MP3 - MPEG-1 Layer 3, WMA - Windows Media Audio, OGG - Ogg Vorbis, MPC - MusePack, AAC - MPEG-4 AAC, etc.) And at the bitrate you want.

you missed the part of beamtracers quote that said "legitimate".

[Para]

They wanna save the movie industry ?? Umm try lowering the admission price. I pay 9 dollers to see a movie in the evening and even matinee pricess are 7.50 ..ok so on top of that 3-4 dollers for candy and 3-4 dollers for a soda so in the evening for one person your pay at least 15 dollers if you wanna have snacks during the movie .

It's dollAr, you silly American :)

Movie tickets here cost usually about 9 euros (which is about 11 dollars) and new DVD:s are around 25 euros (that's 30 dollars or so) so I agree with you, only way to "save the movie industry" is to lower the prices. I don't care if the effects would look less shiny and spectacular and the sets would be made of cardboard instead of polygons as long as the ticket prices would go down.

[jbo]

while it sucks that the movie industry is in such a state, it really has no one to blame but itself. piracy isn't affecting sales nearly as much as people think. i don't see how anyone can feel sorry for people who charge 4.50 for a coke and 7 bucks for a bag of popcorn that cost them 7 cents to make. then on top of that they show ads before the movie, for cars that i obviously can't affoard now that i've spent my life savings on some snacks.

[tuna]

you missed the part of beamtracers quote that said "legitimate".

No I didn't. AllofMP3.com is a legitimate site.

Home screens keep getting bigger with more resolution. Soon HDTV will be the norm. Meanwhile, theater/cinema screens keep getting worse. They get smaller (with multiplexes) and their resolution gets worse (eg Star Wars shot on video and transferred to film looked really bad). Plus, you get some idiots sitting near you in the theater munching on their food stuff and crackling plastic wrappers.

Now, imagine you have iTunes for video. You can choose from 50,000 movies. It comes in instantly. You watch it in High Definition. You've got Dolby surround sound.

I hate cinemas and of all the movies I like, I don't watch them there. The whole people eating thing really gets on my nerves. An iTunes for video (especially in HD) is something I've wanted for a long time now. It also does away with the whole planning / having time to go out and see a movie when it comes out / put up with the rest of the crap.

[L.Rawlins]

I have to just say, that as much as there are some really shoddy excuses for 'entertainment' being made and released by the movie makers... some of the cinemas that play them aren't so great either. The quality of the screens, projectors, sound setup... a distinct lack of atmosphere and character in your typical generic Odeon complex... beyond the faint whiff of reheated, tasteless popcorn and that dormant arcade machine of yesteryear. Even the staff wear baseball caps and baggy cheap branded tops akin to the McDonalds style fast-food workers.

It all culminates to a rubbish experience, even with a good movie.

I'm all for the cinema experience, it's great to set out with friends and loved ones for a good movie on a big quality screen. It's good fun. I just wish that the auditoriums and the people who run them would keep up with the technology, or atleast fix the stuff they've run into the ground.

No matter the calibre of the movie, or the cast... if the seat's uncomfortable and I'm sticking to the floor; my attention is distinctly diverted from the focus of where it should be.

And who amongst us turns up atleast 15 minutes late to miss all those bloody adverts before the trailers?...

Ungh.

Is it any wonder we stay at home?... and that the biggest screen in your favourite cinema is barely ever even half full?

It has all seemingly become very bland and very soulless.

[tozz]

I have to just say, that as much as there are some really shoddy excuses for 'entertainment' being made and released by the movie makers... some of the cinemas that play them aren't so great either. The quality of the screens, projectors, sound setup... a distinct lack of atmosphere and character in your typical generic Odeon complex... beyond the faint whiff of reheated, tasteless popcorn and that dormant arcade machine of yesteryear. Even the staff wear baseball caps and baggy cheap branded tops akin to the McDonalds style fast-food workers.

It all culminates to a rubbish experience, even with a good movie.

I'm all for the cinema experience, it's great to set out with friends and loved ones for a good movie on a big quality screen. It's good fun. I just wish that the auditoriums and the people who run them would keep up with the technology, or atleast fix the stuff they've run into the ground.

No matter the calibre of the movie, or the cast... if the seat's uncomfortable and I'm sticking to the floor; my attention is distinctly diverted from the focus of where it should be.

And who amongst us turns up atleast 15 minutes late to miss all those bloody adverts before the trailers?...

Ungh.

Is it any wonder we stay at home?... and that the biggest screen in your favourite cinema is barely ever even half full?

It has all seemingly become very bland and very soulless.
Quoted for full agreement.

Since when did pirating hurt DVD sales? DVD has had an increase after increase after increase .... for the last five years, every year hitting more and more insane sales numbers. If it's one industry that doesn't need saving, it's the Movie industry, actually it need something to hurt them badly, a freaking cartel is what the industry is. (It's actually illeagal in Sweden to behave like they do).

[cJaynes]

Well I can't really complain about ticket prices becuase I get a good ole student discount so a ticket for me cost 5.50. Also we just got a Digital theatre.. only some movies play there but I got to see ROTS with dvd quality picture and a monstorous THX system... It was crazy. But if there is anything I have learned from economics classes (which isn't much) if you lower the price the demand will increase. Since the movie industry is in a 30 week slump? maybe they should consider that, but i don't know it it is up to them or the theatres?

As for DVD's the prices was killing me I buy alot of movie, but the ones that were really expensive were the TV episodes geez 50 bucks for one season, so I joined netflcks and Im really enjoying it.

[L.Rawlins]

Thank you 'tozz'.

Why should we all spend our money and make an effort, if the many varying factors of the movie world aren't prepared to do the same?

Therein lies their problem and their solution.

[jbo]

No I didn't. AllofMP3.com is a legitimate site.

it's on shaky legal ground in russia, and totally illegal most other places. if it is legit, i would hate to think of isn't. artist are not getting any of that money.

[tuna]

it's on shaky legal ground in russia

If by "shaky grounds" you mean "investigated and deemed legal", then yes. Back to my original point: not all legitimate music download sites use formats with DRM. Want more than a Russian site? karmadownload.com, playloudershop.com, bleep.com. These all use high quality .mp3 files which you can play on anything.

[tozz]

it's on shaky legal ground in russia, and totally illegal most other places. if it is legit, i would hate to think of isn't. artist are not getting any of that money.
Artists getting money... they don't even get money from record labels. We have taxes and fees for media but 0 of that money goes to artists, same with cd-sales.

Why should we all spend our money and make an effort, if the many varying factors of the movie world aren't prepared to do the same?
Because the majority of the population lets them get away with it, they don't need to adjust. I since long stoped visiting cinemas, exept for one we have close by, ranked as the best in Sweden. I mean... They want me to PAY for a bad seat, crappy display and worthless audio. THX Certified? LOL, that's pure crap, what's the requirement, high volume? Then to add to my "value" I get people talking and eating like pigs, and the occasional walk to the toilet. How can they actually expect people to pay for this?

[Para]

Since when did pirating hurt DVD sales? DVD has had an increase after increase after increase .... for the last five years, every year hitting more and more insane sales numbers. If it's one industry that doesn't need saving, it's the Movie industry, actually it need something to hurt them badly, a freaking cartel is what the industry is. (It's actually illeagal in Sweden to behave like they do).

Here's an interesting statistic for ya:

When audio CD copy protection first time really hit Finland's music stores, people started to return in masses the CD:s they had bought because obviously they didn't work in their personal computers etc. In total this was over 140% increase in product returns within a year. They of course got their money back but the dissatisfaction caused by the whole thing caused a lot of them to start download all the songs from the internet and som even stopped entirely their habit of buying music at all because of it. Piracy on the other hand before this had actually been decreasing because the music prices had just managed to lower to a good level (about 20 euros per album) but then the music industry shot itself to its leg with a bazooka... :hmm:

[jbo]

Artists getting money... they don't even get money from record labels. We have taxes and fees for media but 0 of that money goes to artists, same with cd-sales.


yes it is true that artist see very little of the money from cd sales (but not 0 as you claim). but this is not really relevant as to weather or not allofmp3.com is legit or not.

If you guys want to pirate music fine. if you don't see anything wrong with it fine. i agree that the recording industry is totally f'd up, and if you want to use that fact to justify piracy, go ahead, but at least admit that that's what you are doing. allofmp3.com is no different than downloading from a p2p. in fact it's worse, cause you're allowing people to profit from piracy.

[Balusilustalu]

hehehe.... nice one Para.. :) lol

However... try £11 (that's 20 dollArs for you silly americans) for a seat here at the Odeon on Leceister Square in London with their crappy tiger print uncomfortable seats. Warner Village is even worse with their tiny screens. Sit more than half way down the rows and the screen has a smaller field of view than your average 32" TV set up in your living room. Yet you still pay the same price as their (only) full size screen. :(
They call it rip-off britain for a reason... Americans don't half know how cheap their life-style is... next thing you know they'll start complaining how expensive their petrol is.... Oh wait.. they already do.... ;)


It's dollAr, you silly American :)

Movie tickets here cost usually about 9 euros (which is about 11 dollars) and new DVD:s are around 25 euros (that's 30 dollars or so) so I agree with you, only way to "save the movie industry" is to lower the prices. I don't care if the effects would look less shiny and spectacular and the sets would be made of cardboard instead of polygons as long as the ticket prices would go down.

[Flog]

Why has the movie industry not recognized the other failings?

Many of the movies I do see at the movies are fun. I usually choose wisely.

But what is putting them in the rut is making movies more expensive. Seriously does it have to cost 100 million dollars a movie.

80 million for a movie that does not even have special effects?

That is their fault in the first place. Folks don't know how to budget well. Case in point

Napoleon Dynamite, 90 minutes=$400,000
Napoleon Dynamite Extended scene, 5 minutes=$250,000

Why did it cost $250,000 dollars to film a 5 minute scene and a whole 400,000 for an entire movie?

You would think with the ability of software and hardware these days that movies would be getting cheaper to make, not more expensive.

The other fault of theirs is the rising price of going to the movies. In the last 5 years it has gone from $6.75-8.25 in my area and continues to rise.

Do they not see the connection in rising prices and lower viewings. It ain't piracy causing a slump, it is the way the manage things.

Going to the movies is an experience, but the more you charge for the experience, the less people go. If you lower the price you can make more money in bulk.

Star Wars E4 made as much money as the modern day Star Wars at the box office.
Ticket price back then 2.00, do the math.

So in bulk you made way more money. Can you not connect the dots. Hollywood is financially stupid. They run on dumb luck.

[tozz]

Here's an interesting statistic for ya:

When audio CD copy protection first time really hit Finland's music stores, people started to return in masses the CD:s they had bought because obviously they didn't work in their personal computers etc. In total this was over 140% increase in product returns within a year. They of course got their money back but the dissatisfaction caused by the whole thing caused a lot of them to start download all the songs from the internet and som even stopped entirely their habit of buying music at all because of it. Piracy on the other hand before this had actually been decreasing because the music prices had just managed to lower to a good level (about 20 euros per album) but then the music industry shot itself to its leg with a bazooka... :hmm:

20euros per album!? That's insanity, pure and simple insanity. I think 10euro is way too much, espcially considering 90% of that money goes in to the pocket of record labels who doesn't do anything but destroy music. The most recent survey I read showed that piracy acutally increased sales because you know what you buy, and that's simple consumer awareness.

[parallax]

Here's a thought: (one many have aired in this thread already)

How about stop charging 9 Euros for the ticket, 3 Euros for a 40cl Coke, 2 Euros for a Snickers bar, 10 minutes of previews, 15-20 minutes of commercials (no joke!!) and maybe just in general start doing your business more ethically correct.
Next to the fact that these mega-mediaconglomerates have been behaving dodgy at best the last 20 years, i'm also sick of the fact that the cinemas are all but forced to show 99% crap and the occasional 'nice try' let alone a proper film.

There is no saving to be done.

More product, less money please. As a matter of fact, i think i'm going to demand a refund for the next less-then-satisfactory POS that polluted my retina. Better yet, i'm going to send them a bill for time lost.

[parallax]

20euros per album!? That's insanity, pure and simple insanity. I think 10euro is way too much, espcially considering 90% of that money goes in to the pocket of record labels who doesn't do anything but destroy music. The most recent survey I read showed that piracy acutally increased sales because you know what you buy, and that's simple consumer awareness.

I've been buying albums that i downloaded 1st. Without the web, i would've never bought that album. Pretty much proof of concept if you ask me.

ps.

How about paying 23 Euros? that's pretty normal over here. Or paying 32 Euros for a Pharcyde re-print that has been laying stores for 6 years.

Even 99 cents a song is total robbery if you ask me.

[Para]

20euros per album!? That's insanity, pure and simple insanity. I think 10euro is way too much, espcially considering 90% of that money goes in to the pocket of record labels who doesn't do anything but destroy music. The most recent survey I read showed that piracy acutally increased sales because you know what you buy, and that's simple consumer awareness.

20 euros isn't bad in Finland, we have so many "hidden taxes" everywhere that it's considered an artform just to get by them all, heck, that's why most of us buy our DVD movies/audio CD:s/CD-RW:s/televisions/cars from other countries.

In 9/10 cases movie/audio piracy has done only good things to record industry in terms of increased sales and in the 1/10 cases the big companies complain because people found out "the easy way" that the product the big company is trying to sell is actually pure crap :) Of course software piracy is a whole another subject where what I just said just doesn't work but this thread isn't about that.

[leuey]

I'm sorry, but that's just retarded. If you're going to post your ridiculous conjecture at least try to back it up with facts.

Why yes of course, millions of stolen songs and movies has helped the respective industries 90% of the time. Which of course explains the millions spent on lawyers and ad. compaigns to try and stop it. B/c they're idiots and they don't realize what you've so profoundly proclaimed.

And of course it's completely different than software - why there's no parallel there at all.

This thread has deteriorated into the same endless crap arguement that's been going on since the beginning on usenet (piracy is good for business, no really - it is!! I swear, I don't have any facts to back that up - actually I'm just talking out of my ass. But c'mon, it has to be true!").

-Greg



In 9/10 cases movie/audio piracy has done only good things to record industry in terms of increased sales and in the 1/10 cases the big companies complain because people found out "the easy way" that the product the big company is trying to sell is actually pure crap :) Of course software piracy is a whole another subject where what I just said just doesn't work but this thread isn't about that.

[mdurwin]

Theaters only get about 10% of the ticket price depending on the kind of theater, if it's a chain and they got a deal, etc. They must get the rest of their profit from food sales. We have a theater near Boston that has nice big leather lounge seats with tv trays. They serve steak, beer, etc. That's how theaters can make money. As for movie companies, they're doing exactly what the record companies are doing, shoveling out remakes (or sound-alikes) or shallow big-bang/gimmick movies (think one-hit-wonders). It's only the rare movie that makes a big financial splash, relatively speaking. Usually it's an indie like Blair Witch, not a HUGE money maker until you consider how much it made compared to the cost of making it. Same goes for Greek Wedding. Big name blockbusters or A-level ensemble casts just don't have the potential profit margin, they're too expensive to make to bring in much as far as revenue. That's how DVD sales are saving the industry. The movie industry is afraid of the same thing that the RIAA is. RIAA says they're losing CD sales. That is incorrect, their sales have actually been up. They're losing CD-singles sales. Because all of the teenagers and little kids out there don't want to pay for the new Britney Spears single. Most bands put out crappy CDs with one good song, unlike the 70s or 80s when the whole album was awesome. SO what they're losing in quality they're making up for in quantity. Same with the movie industry. Look at the big opening weekends coming up: Bewitched: Remake, Herbie: Remake, War of the Worlds: Remake, etc., ad nauseum. Not to say that an occasional remake is bad, but not when it's a majority of your product!
Luckily us CG guys have alot of talent and can make our own movies. I've seen more good films in a week on Atom Films than I have at theaters in a decade.
So, band together, make some movies! I've got 4 lined up, now if I could get some minimal financing (scrathes chin, imagining product placement..)...

[Beamtracer]

Selling packets of junk food at the theater may make the theater a few extra dollars on the night. But all those crackling packets are one of the biggest reasons why not to watch a movie in a theater. They lose money in ticket sales because of this.

If I go out to watch a movie, I want to watch it in pristine quality. I don't want people crunching, crackling, chattering and ringing near me. I don't want substandard picture quality caused by the process of shooting on video and transferring it to film (there are more and more movies like this nowadays.) If they shoot it on video, then I'll watch it on video!

Really, sometimes you can get better quality picture and sound if you have a good set-up at home.


I'd like to see a legitimate movie download service, that sends movies across the net in a way similar to BitTorrent (http://www.bittorrent.com/), and encodes them in High Definition H.264 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264) format, presenting them on a Wi-Fi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wi-fi) enabled non-computer media device that connects to the TV screen in the living room.

Instant access to 10,000 or more movies at any time. Now that would revolutionize the movie business.

[mdurwin]

Didn't some Internet company claim to offer that a few years back? I'd love to see that. I've got a sweet home set-up, I'd rather pay $12 to download the movie at home and watch it, stored on a hard drive, then go to a theater. On Demand and Pay Per View are close but I want the latest movies. Just like iTunes Store, cut out the middle man!

[tozz]

I'm sorry, but that's just retarded. If you're going to post your ridiculous conjecture at least try to back it up with facts.

Why yes of course, millions of stolen songs and movies has helped the respective industries 90% of the time. Which of course explains the millions spent on lawyers and ad. compaigns to try and stop it. B/c they're idiots and they don't realize what you've so profoundly proclaimed.

And of course it's completely different than software - why there's no parallel there at all.

This thread has deteriorated into the same endless crap arguement that's been going on since the beginning on usenet (piracy is good for business, no really - it is!! I swear, I don't have any facts to back that up - actually I'm just talking out of my ass. But c'mon, it has to be true!").

-Greg
True, they're idiots, spending the money on the only thing that won't help them increase sales. Stolen? You ask for facts, you give us 100% proof that a song thas has been downloaded would have been purchased otherwise... didn't think so, there's your "proof needed theory". The method the industry uses for calculating "losses" are below a 1-year old. I would never ever buy a movie or audio cd before viewing it/listening to it (exept if it's from an artist I allready like), that's just dumb, so guess I'm stealing from the industry while I pay for the stuff I want more of, sounds right.. oh wait, no it doesn't.:rolleyes:

[KBOC]

The audio codec used on the iTunes store is called 'AAC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Audio_Coding)' (Advanced Audio Coding), which is part of the MPEG specification, and designed to replace MP3. It's the competitors who are using closed proprietary non-standard codecs.

Can't play iTunes purchased anything on Winamp... which would if it weren't a closed format.

[KBOC]

Instant access to 10,000 or more movies at any time. Now that would revolutionize the movie business.

It's not a new idea. http://www.cinemanow.com http://www.movielink.com http://starz.real.com/

[tozz]

It's not a new idea. http://www.cinemanow.com http://www.movielink.com http://starz.real.com/
Even the porn industry is ahead on this one, renting and streaming dvd-movies online. And no matter how much I'll try to convince you that this is something I know, not something I practice I won't be able to, so I'll just let you have your fun:sad::rolleyes::shrug:

[leuey]

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. Your logic is very strange.

-Greg



True, they're idiots, spending the money on the only thing that won't help them increase sales. Stolen? You ask for facts, you give us 100% proof that a song thas has been downloaded would have been purchased otherwise... didn't think so, there's your "proof needed theory". The method the industry uses for calculating "losses" are below a 1-year old. I would never ever buy a movie or audio cd before viewing it/listening to it (exept if it's from an artist I allready like), that's just dumb, so guess I'm stealing from the industry while I pay for the stuff I want more of, sounds right.. oh wait, no it doesn't.:rolleyes:

[s_ridenour]

Why has the movie industry not recognized the other failings?

Many of the movies I do see at the movies are fun. I usually choose wisely.

But what is putting them in the rut is making movies more expensive. Seriously does it have to cost 100 million dollars a movie.

80 million for a movie that does not even have special effects?


VFX are expensive. Especially good VFX.

And the costs of doing a union shoot are enormous. Why do you think producers like to make movies in other countries? So that they don't have to pay somebody $25/hour to pull cable.


That is their fault in the first place. Folks don't know how to budget well. Case in point

Napoleon Dynamite, 90 minutes=$400,000
Napoleon Dynamite Extended scene, 5 minutes=$250,000

Why did it cost $250,000 dollars to film a 5 minute scene and a whole 400,000 for an entire movie?


Napoleon Dynamite wasn't a union shoot, as far as I know. They had a small crew, got a lot of favors, all the actors probably worked for peanuts, and they used only existing locations (no sets to build).

I think it is you that does't know much about budgeting a movie.


You would think with the ability of software and hardware these days that movies would be getting cheaper to make, not more expensive.


Hardware is expensive. Software is also expensive. And the trouble with computers is that they need to be upgraded or replaced every 2 years or so.

You didn't actually think those HD cameras that Lucas shot Episode II and III with were cheap, did you? From what I've been told, they're at least as expensive as regular 35mm film cameras, and instead of paying for film you have to pay for 4:4:4 HD recorders and other expensive equipment.

And it doesn't matter how good your software and hardware are, talented individuals who can use them to their fullest potential are expensive.


The other fault of theirs is the rising price of going to the movies. In the last 5 years it has gone from $6.75-8.25 in my area and continues to rise.

Do they not see the connection in rising prices and lower viewings. It ain't piracy causing a slump, it is the way the manage things.

Going to the movies is an experience, but the more you charge for the experience, the less people go. If you lower the price you can make more money in bulk.

Star Wars E4 made as much money as the modern day Star Wars at the box office.
Ticket price back then 2.00, do the math.

So in bulk you made way more money. Can you not connect the dots. Hollywood is financially stupid. They run on dumb luck.

Comparing ticket prices nearly 30 years ago with ticket prices today is stupid. $2.00 in 1977 was worth a lot more than $2.00 in 2005.

Lastly: STOP WHINING ABOUT CONCESSION STAND PRICES. Movie studios have absolutely nothing to do with how much a theater charges for Coke, popcorn, or whatever. Depending on the movie, theaters get anywhere from 10% to 50% of the ticket price, and so they've got to cover their costs and turn a profit elsewhere, namely by charging $4.50 for a Coke.

[jbo]

Lastly: STOP WHINING ABOUT CONCESSION STAND PRICES. Movie studios have absolutely nothing to do with how much a theater charges for Coke, popcorn, or whatever. Depending on the movie, theaters get anywhere from 10% to 50% of the ticket price, and so they've got to cover their costs and turn a profit elsewhere, namely by charging $4.50 for a Coke.

movie studios absolutely have something to do with it... you even pretty much say so in your post. theatre owners have to charge so much, because of the deal they have with the studios. and even if the studios didn't have anything to do with it, it's irrelevent. it's a reason that sales are down no matter who is responsible. why are we only allowed to complain about the things that are the studios fault?

also, he wasn't comparing ticket prices from 1977 to ticket prices now. he was pointing out how many people must have bought tickets back then in order to make so much money a 2 bucks a pop.

obviously something is wrong when someone like me, who LOVES movies, no longer wants to go to them.

[moovieboy]

They wanna save the movie industry ?? Umm try lowering the admission price. I pay 9 dollers to see a movie in the evening and even matinee pricess are 7.50 ..ok so on top of that 3-4 dollers for candy and 3-4 dollers for a soda so in the evening for one person your pay at least 15 dollers if you wanna have snacks during the movie . I'd rather buy the DVD for the same price and watch the movie in my underwear at home . Yah sure I like seeing the big hits like Batman returns in the theatre because it's an experience with the sound and huge screen but 99% of other movies like this weekends Heerbie or Bewitched ???? Come on ... anyways here is to hoping the movie industry pulls there head out of there arse .

I just grabbed this quote because obviously many feel the same way... But when I hear people talk like this, it does make me pause because compared to almost every other public "event" activity, movie going is still one of the cheapest damned things around. A friend of mine was going to New York and wanted to see Monty Python's Spamalot on Broadway and then nearly went into shock when her friend said their tickets would be $900 together! And how much does it cost to see the Stones or U2 anywhere besides the ultra nosebleeds? And sporting events are equally out of hand for seats that, at a cineplex would put you into the parking lot!

So, I ask all of you, in context with all the other ticket prices, is a $7 matinee that obscene?

[dmeyer]

I'm sorry, I have no idea what you're talking about. Your logic is very strange.

-Greg
Quoted for agreement.

If the original poster meant that stealing isn't stealing if it is something you would never have paid for in the first place (so no loss of a potential buyer)...well you know I would never pay for a Ferrari, but if I went and took one, would that be stealing?

[smoothoperator]

They wanna save the movie industry ?? Umm try lowering the admission price. I pay 9 dollers to see a movie in the evening and even matinee pricess are 7.50 ..ok so on top of that 3-4 dollers for candy and 3-4 dollers for a soda so in the evening for one person your pay at least 15 dollers if you wanna have snacks during the movie . I'd rather buy the DVD for the same price and watch the movie in my underwear at home . Yah sure I like seeing the big hits like Batman returns in the theatre because it's an experience with the sound and huge screen but 99% of other movies like this weekends Heerbie or Bewitched ???? Come on ... anyways here is to hoping the movie industry pulls there head out of there arse .

You have any idea how big Heerbie will be? Linsay Lohan is a gold mine. My niece freaks over her. Heck I even think shes hot. Point is...Disney and everyone involved in that movie will make $. Sure I won't go see it. But many kids/teens will. You have any idea how much money ppl spend on thier kids to shut em up? lol.
Anyway you can't accomidate everyone that's for sure.

KIng KOng is a remake..u bet i'll be watching that in the theater.

I don't think it's expensive to watch a film in the theater. I for one don't eat any junk food...and I don't go too often because of what's coming out of hollywood these days. 10$ approx is ok. Comparing it to other "events" like the last person stated. I also hate it when there's disturbing people in the theater that takes away from the experience.
There's alot to iron out to "fix" the film experience and get "better". Key words which depending on who you ask can differ greatly.

1- update theaters. make it an experience that will make people say...watching it there will be beter than my plasma screen. It's a social thing so they should focus on that. Change the pricing of the crap sold there. It is expensive. Either offer theaters more of a cut or do something about it. Also something better than crap would be nice..some people are waking up to the fact that crap isnt good for them. lol. sry too much crap. How about something exclusive to theaters and BEER! I'd go for that. And while were at it...how about having those massaging chairs!

2- stop wasting money on bad over priced ego-tistical actors. And people stop buying into it. We the people feed that fire so it's our fault for creating that demand.

3- story is king. make that the focus. fx is second.

4- advertise..big deal just make it something special and consistent with the target audience. Also make it fast. we're there to see the movie ..not commercials.

5- offer a special deal to get money off the dvd/download for people that saw it in the theater. 5-10$ off. I'd go for that. Maybe not even the same movie but from one of the same studio or something.

6- different theaters for different market. example: I'm not crazy about the multicolored disco theme of some. How about a more sleek hip place for 20-30 somethings. Grabbing a drink prior to a movie at the bar with decent food etc. I dunno...playing on the social theme and cusomizing for the market of the movie playing there.

[victor]

I don't think there are any legitimate online music stores that don't use some kind of DRM.
Emusic.com (http://www.emusic.com) (regular MP3s)

BTW, it's been around longer than most of the others (and it's a lot cheaper).

[tozz]

Quoted for agreement.

If the original poster meant that stealing isn't stealing if it is something you would never have paid for in the first place (so no loss of a potential buyer)...well you know I would never pay for a Ferrari, but if I went and took one, would that be stealing?

No, read what I type. I download a song, it's counted as stealing. I then go and buy the album because I liked the song, I still stole something according to RIAA, but the sole reason I bought the album was that I downloaded the song before. RIAA uses this method to calculate "losses". 1 song = $2 (don't know their exact amount nowadays). So if I download 1000 song I owe RIAA $2000, problem is they haven't got a single clue if I would have bought the songs in the first place.

[leuey]

Yes - it is a loss. If you BOUGHT a single, then bought the whole album b/c you liked the single - then that would be normal. They lost money on the single you stole before buying the album. So yes, it's a loss - the stolen single is a loss and the album is a gain, and the net gain is less than it should be sans stealing. For you to say "Hey I never would have bought the album without buying the single" and then factor that into some bizzare math function where you claim 90% of the losses are bs is just weird.

I'm not really sure what your point is. It's not like you can't hear a song on the fricken radio for free and then buy the album. I mean, if I steal Star Wars - then buy the other 5 dvd's it's 'ok' by you b/c the company still makes some money from me even though I stole from them.

you need to think through your logic a little more.

-Greg


No, read what I type. I download a song, it's counted as stealing. I then go and buy the album because I liked the song, I still stole something according to RIAA, but the sole reason I bought the album was that I downloaded the song before. RIAA uses this method to calculate "losses". 1 song = $2 (don't know their exact amount nowadays). So if I download 1000 song I owe RIAA $2000, problem is they haven't got a single clue if I would have bought the songs in the first place.

[mummey]

Wow, this thread has been derailed in SO many directions I can't even count them all...

[mdurwin]

The difference is that if you downloaded the single and it made you buy the CD, or you heard it on the radio, which should amount to the same, it works out for the record company. The same isn't true for movies though. You can already downlaod the trailer and teaser for free. But, if you download the movie for free, what do you buy then?

[enygma]

Wow, this thread has been derailed in SO many directions I can't even count them all...
1) Potential possibility of movie download service from Apple
2) Moral ambiguity involved with downloading music/movies
3) Various legitimate music download sites available

Anything else? I count 3... :D

[mummey]

1) Potential possibility of movie download service from Apple
2) Moral ambiguity involved with downloading music/movies
3) Various legitimate music download sites available

Anything else? I count 3... :D

That's not even all of those covered on this page! ;)

[tozz]

Yes - it is a loss. If you BOUGHT a single, then bought the whole album b/c you liked the single - then that would be normal. They lost money on the single you stole before buying the album. So yes, it's a loss - the stolen single is a loss and the album is a gain, and the net gain is less than it should be sans stealing. For you to say "Hey I never would have bought the album without buying the single" and then factor that into some bizzare math function where you claim 90% of the losses are bs is just weird.

I'm not really sure what your point is. It's not like you can't hear a song on the fricken radio for free and then buy the album. I mean, if I steal Star Wars - then buy the other 5 dvd's it's 'ok' by you b/c the company still makes some money from me even though I stole from them.

you need to think through your logic a little more.

-Greg
How can they loose money on a single I would never have bought? The album purchased is only because of the songs downloaded. So if I didn't download anything they would rather loose the cash for the album, would that be better? Radio? They play Britney, I don't listen to Britney, shouldn't I be alowed to enjoy music then? "Stealing" music has showed alot of genres and artists I wouldn't ever have found otherwise, and as a result, alot more purchases. What's better, to download a movie and then buy it, or not buy it all... now who is talking about logic...

[Beamtracer]

http://www.gourmetgoodiebasket.com/images/popcorn_small1.gif
Why complain about the price of junk food at movies? This "food" is really total crap that will shorten your lifespan. Sugar laden caffeine drinks and popcorn soaked in saturated palm fat that clogs your arteries. Don't buy this stuff. It's no good for you.

Hopefully they'll price it even higher to keep it out of reach of school kids.

It's only a matter of time before the first H.264 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264) based movie download service begins. Then I'll be able to enjoy my movie with a lentil curry or african artichokes.

I think what is killing the theaters is that their screen quality declines, while the quality of home theater improves (plasma screens, DVD, Dolby surround sound etc). This is why people don't go out to the theater as much these days. As we move into High Definition pictures and downloadable movies, you will see the number of theaters decline rapidly.

[mdurwin]

They say your stealing and it's a loss because they assume you'll buy all of the singles then buy the album! I haven't done that since Def Leppard put out all of those 45s with pieces of the album cover on them. At leat it made for a cool poster on my wall with some cool b-sides. Most singles artists these days don't have anything for a b-side except DJ remixes they had nothing to do with.

What I wonder is if they extras on DVDs would make it worth buying to someone who could just as easily download the movie. Granted that there is an arguement that the video quality and size of current downloads is less than stellar, but we all know that because the desire for video downloads is there, that the technology would follow. So, if you've already downloaded the movie for free, say Batman Begins, in two pieces, from Limewire, then you make a nice menu and put it on a DVD, for personal use of course, what would make you go see the movie? What would make you buy the DVD? I've seen the movie at a theater, awesome. But what is the incentive to purchase the DVD? I don't imagine the extras will be that amazing. Once you've seen the behind-the-scenes of the Lord of the Rings, what will you actually get out of any other DVD extras?
Movie companies will have to offer some pretty amazing stuff (this is where the marketing departments should begin to copy and paste), such as well thought out alternate endings, extended character histories, music videos, the obligatory CG stuff, interviews with the cast, director and writer. What else though? Any interactive elements usually suck since they're limted by DVD remotes. But, WAIT A SECOND! Xboz and Playstation can now play DVDs...
Maybe some indie-style shorts from the director? Extended previews of up-coming releases? Reality segments with the actors? I'd sure love a trailor-cam from Sin City cast members: Oh Jessica...
What do you guys think DVDs could offer as incentives to buy?

[mummey]

Maybe.
It's helped sales of the music industry with itunes with the technology to prevent swapping or sharring of files. Apple's own codec for audio.
I see the same thing happening with the movie industry...and here's the first step.

Steve Jobs invited to join Motion Picture Academy (http://www.macsimumnews.com/index.php/archive/steve_jobs_invited_to_join_motion_picture_academy/)

I don't want to say that he's going to save an industry...but it could be a good thing to develop some means in protecting films from being downloaded via the net from a pirated source. As a result of piracy, filmakers will decrease costs and that's no good for alot of people including the viewers.

Quoted to remind everyone what the topic of this thread is.

[tuna]

1) Potential possibility of movie download service from Apple
2) Moral ambiguity involved with downloading music/movies
3) Various legitimate music download sites available

Anything else? I count 3... :D

Ironically, the subject of derailment has become it's own derailment in this thread.

4) Talking about derailing the thread.

[leuey]

classic.....

yes, I suppose I can rob McDonald's for $20 and then buy $21 dollars worth of hamburgers. So it's a net gain of $1 - which is $20 less than if I hadn't robbed them in the first place.

If you steal a song and come back and buy 5 - it's a net gain minus the loss of the first stolen song. Please don't give me the crap about stealing something then coming back and buying more. Have you really bought the Album from EVERY song you've stolen?? I mean, have you really? And since you think 90% of the losses these companies report you apparently think everybody else also buys more than they steal (which again, is a net again but less than it would be after you subtract the losses from stealing.) Do you REALLY believe stealing songs and movies helps the companies that produce these products? Stealing music has taken off like crazy from just a few years ago - but I don't see sales soaring.

And finally, how long you can really justify stealing somebody elses stuff? I mean, I'd have a lot more respect for you if you just said - "Yeah, I steal music. I know it's illegal and wrong - although sometimes I end up buying the whole album."

I used to pirate games when I was a kid (Atari 800 - yeah baby). But I certainly didn't try to justify it by saying I'd also buy the occasional game after stealing something I liked. I knew it was wrong and did it because I could get away with it and didn't want to spend the money (see? honest answer).

what's this thread about again? Tom Cruise? yeah - he's crazy......:shrug:

-Greg



How can they loose money on a single I would never have bought? ...

[tozz]

classic.....

yes, I suppose I can rob McDonald's for $20 and then buy $21 dollars worth of hamburgers. So it's a net gain of $1 - which is $20 less than if I hadn't robbed them in the first place.

If you steal a song and come back and buy 5 - it's a net gain minus the loss of the first stolen song. Please don't give me the crap about stealing something then coming back and buying more. Have you really bought the Album from EVERY song you've stolen?? I mean, have you really? And since you think 90% of the losses these companies report you apparently think everybody else also buys more than they steal (which again, is a net again but less than it would be after you subtract the losses from stealing.) Do you REALLY believe stealing songs and movies helps the companies that produce these products? Stealing music has taken off like crazy from just a few years ago - but I don't see sales soaring.

And finally, how long you can really justify stealing somebody elses stuff? I mean, I'd have a lot more respect for you if you just said - "Yeah, I steal music. I know it's illegal and wrong - although sometimes I end up buying the whole album."

I used to pirate games when I was a kid (Atari 800 - yeah baby). But I certainly didn't try to justify it by saying I'd also buy the occasional game after stealing something I liked. I knew it was wrong and did it because I could get away with it and didn't want to spend the money (see? honest answer).

what's this thread about again? Tom Cruise? yeah - he's crazy......:shrug:

-Greg
Since you just don't care about what I'm trying to say I just stop here with a small "thinker". Piracy increases, Sales increases.

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