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View Full Version : I'm So Sick of Cliche 3D Art?


DimensionalPunk
06-27-2005, 12:23 AM
Is anyone else here frustrated with the dribble that is continuing to come from the CG medium? This medium has so much potential and it's being pissed on by people who learn the software and study nothing about art. And in reply to tevih's question, “can CG break into the Art World?” I don't know, true artists will make art at no concern for whether it will sell or not. I'm just tired of the scifi fantasy crap we see everyday. If I see another model of a gun in the Finished Work Gallery I think I'll shoot myself with it.

I suppose it's not the artists fault, it's more of a supply and demand problem. The Impressionists made art against the realism grain so why can't we make CG art that has more than just the naked chick with a gun cliches? I know that we all need to have a job that usually forces us to make those things, I just want to know if I'm not the only one getting tired of it.

powersurge5000
06-27-2005, 12:39 AM
But I'll take naked chicks over meaningful art anyday. We'll break through though,....all its gonna take is for people to give cg art more exposure in our modern society.

Chris Radcliffe

JMcWilliams
06-27-2005, 01:10 AM
for whether it will sell or not. I'm just tired of the scifi fantasy crap we see everyday.
.

So do you not think that something worthwhile can be done with sci-fi or fantasy?

DimensionalPunk
06-27-2005, 02:15 AM
No, I actually think the contrary. I'm just a little tired of every piece of 3D art out there fitting into one category.

KayosIII
06-27-2005, 03:03 AM
No I love it... It is not crap (you shouldn't say that just because something is not to your taste). I like other stuff too and it would be nice to see more variety here...

mangual
06-27-2005, 03:46 AM
I'd like to remind people that the "Naked Chicks" cliche is not exclusive to CG art.

Remember back in the day all those "great artists" absolutely lovveeeed painting portraits of naked chicks!

Heck, even if you go back to Ancient Greece:

They had Naked Chick-STATUES!! Now that's real 3D!

PerfectBlue
06-27-2005, 03:53 AM
"everyday" subjects are getting old.. sci-fi monsters/flashy cars/hot babes... just shows which sex dominates the population of CG artists.


Nothing wrong with the subjects... just everyone is doing them... makes you wonder if anyone actually thinks to themselves "How can i be original today?" at any point in time. :p

JMcWilliams
06-27-2005, 04:46 AM
"everyday" subjects are getting old.. sci-fi monsters/flashy cars/hot babes... just shows which sex dominates the population of CG artists.


Nothing wrong with the subjects... just everyone is doing them... makes you wonder if anyone actually thinks to themselves "How can i be original today?" at any point in time. :p

To be honest, I think a lot of the people who are posting work are aspiring VFX or game artists and as such are simply creating work that they feel is relevent to that career.

erilaz
06-27-2005, 04:46 AM
When you take a look at the CG choice forum, what do you see? It's a blend of everything, from the mundane office to flowery fantastique. People make original and beuatiful art all the time on this forum, much of it falling in and out of the catergories you specified. I would say there are far more perfectly modelled cars in the galleries than "naked chicks".
Certainly there are a lot of the scanty women in sci-fi situation scenarios, but that just means something to that artist. Great artists branch that "cliche" into something original and delightful.
People make art to fulfill something within themselves or a client's wishes. If that means many of these artworks are sci-fi and fantasy related, we should let them indulge in that. If you feel a void of original art not being filled, then you may have to take steps to fill it yourself.

People like formula at times. That's why so many people watch television.:D

(By the way, I fully respect your opinion and taste! I'm not attacking your position on this)

DimensionalPunk
06-27-2005, 05:56 AM
I'd like to remind people that the "Naked Chicks" cliche is not exclusive to CG art.

Remember back in the day all those "great artists" absolutely lovveeeed painting portraits of naked chicks!

Heck, even if you go back to Ancient Greece:

They had Naked Chick-STATUES!! Now that's real 3D!




If Degas or Renoir painted nudes wearing bondage outfits holding a giant sword do you really think they would be thought of as masters? No, that's just bad taste. I'm a huge admirer of Steven Stahlberg's art. I'm not saying that all fantasy art is bad, I just am sick of the overwhelmingly large amount of bad taste out there when it comes to the genre. The female body isn't in question here, it has and always will be one of the most beautiful studies for any art form.

mangual
06-27-2005, 06:21 AM
If Degas or Renoir painted nudes wearing bondage outfits holding a giant sword do you really think they would be thought of as masters? No, that's just bad taste. I'm a huge admirer of Steven Stahlberg's art. I'm not saying that all fantasy art is bad, I just am sick of the overwhelmingly large amount of bad taste out there when it comes to the genre. The female body isn't in question here, it has and always will be one of the most beautiful studies for any art form.

Oh, you made the mistake of taking my message seriously. Wasn't even thinking of bondage until you mentioned it just now. What's on YOUR mind? LOL.

"Bad taste" is subjective. I am leery of the phrase due to my belief that artists should decide for themselves what they wish to create without caring what anyone else thinks.

Freedom of creativity is essential. If someone wants to make an anime nude fairy holding a giant sword - let them - it's not hurting anyone.

my two cents

KBOC
06-27-2005, 06:27 AM
I just am sick of the overwhelmingly large amount of bad taste out there when it comes to the genre.

Sorry I'm nitpicking... but CG is a medium, not a genre. Not only is it a medium, it's a medium which requires multiple disciplines to complete.

I don't buy that CG hasn't broken into the art world... I think the Traditional Art World has become so mired in it's own self-indulgeance that it has distanced itself from the real world.

I think CG is the absolute definition of High Art, and most in the "Art World" couldn't hope to live up to being any better than hacks... and I'm a hack, so I know what I'm talking about :p

DimensionalPunk
06-27-2005, 06:29 AM
"Bad taste" is subjective. I am leery of the phrase due to my belief that artists should decide for themselves what they wish to create without caring what anyone else thinks.

Freedom of creativity is essential. If someone wants to make an anime nude fairy holding a giant sword - let them - it's not hurting anyone.

my two cents

You've actually got me there, I completely agree with that point of view. Now I feel like one of those art snobs. I don't have to like it but I'll try to not complain about it, I just wish there wasn't so much of it.

enroper
06-27-2005, 06:29 AM
what amazes me is the amount of people doing 'cg art' who can't even draw. and it deffinately shows in their work

KBOC
06-27-2005, 06:34 AM
http://www.mccormickgallery.com/naranjotour.html

This guy can't draw either... he's been blind since birth.

DimensionalPunk
06-27-2005, 06:43 AM
what amazes me is the amount of people doing 'cg art' who can't even draw. and it deffinately shows in their work

I think that's what the heart of my frusteration was all about. I just got through helping someone who is having trouble modeling a face. I asked if they had any reference pictures,
"No but I know what I want it to look like."
"Then maybe it would help to scetch it out and use image planes."
"I can't draw a face."
"Then you can't model a face either."

PerfectBlue
06-27-2005, 06:57 AM
To be honest, I think a lot of the people who are posting work are aspiring VFX or game artists and as such are simply creating work that they feel is relevent to that career.
Quite possible. But that brings up issues with the whole industry... :hmm:

Dr. Ira Kane
06-27-2005, 07:08 AM
The thing is that there are real artists, and thousands of people who only think they are atrists. We live in a period in our history that suffers as hell from those 'artists', let's face it art isn't for everyone, and some shouldn't make art. It's not only in CG, just look at all those idiots trying to get attention making things that makes me ashamed of human race and calling themselves artists. I'm not talking now about all those overdone 3d themes - like guns, orcs etc, I really don't care, if they are well done let them be, but they will never be anything more than technically well made cg piece, it won't give you the - 'ahhh I feel that with my heart' feeling, just 'ahhh it looks nice'...


BTW : KBOC - he is a sculptor right ? He did few sculptures ( and to be honest nothing to be amazed ) I guess more blind people could do that, they see with hands! but it has nothing to do with cg-drawing topic, and believe me 2 years ago I said I don't need to learn drawing, after two years of learning I know that I was wrong then :)

erilaz
06-27-2005, 07:08 AM
I think that's what the heart of my frusteration was all about. I just got through helping someone who is having trouble modeling a face. I asked if they had any reference pictures,
"No but I know what I want it to look like."
"Then maybe it would help to scetch it out and use image planes."
"I can't draw a face."
"Then you can't model a face either."

I'd have to disagree there. I've seen many exceptional character modellers who can't draw to save themselves. Some people have just never done it. You can spend years doing clay sculpture without knowing how to represent that clay in two dimensions. It helps volumes to learn to draw (so you know how to observe and pull up ideas and proportion in your head), but it's not a requirement. A limitation in one medium doesn't mean limitation in another.

KBOC
06-27-2005, 07:09 AM
Do you mean that since most games being about Fantasy and SciFi? It doesn't just bring up issues with the industry, but the market as a whole... consumers, society at large... all dem peeps out dere :p

KBOC
06-27-2005, 07:11 AM
TBTW : KBOC - he is a sculptor right ? He did few sculptures ( and to be honest nothing to be amazed ) I guess more blind people could do that, they see with hands! but it has nothing to do with cg-drawing topic, and believe me 2 years ago I said I don't need to learn drawing, after two years of learning I know that I was wrong then :)

I'm a bad person to talk to about that... since I'm not a half bad penciller... :p Though I cheat. I use Hogarth's methodology :p

he is a sculptor right ? He did few sculptures ( and to be honest nothing to be amazed )

OOOOO! The arrogance! The INSENSITIVE HONESTY!!! The GUILE!!! This is why the Artsy Fartsy crowd don't accept 3D Artists... cause 3D Artists actually live in the real world... :p

traptinmyself113
06-27-2005, 07:11 AM
what amazes me is the amount of people doing 'cg art' who can't even draw. and it deffinately shows in their work


like me haha. i admit it

Dr. Ira Kane
06-27-2005, 07:19 AM
KBOC - I love 3D, I do live in real world, I like sculptures and I don't like this 'Artsy Fartsy crowd' either but should I write that those sculptures are great because they are made by blind person ? - I don't care if he is blind or not, just not for my taste, that's all.

KBOC
06-27-2005, 07:24 AM
Dr. Kane, I applaud you! I got a big kick out of your post, and I'd love to see the slack jawed faces of the rich and the worthless in the Greenwitch Village Art Houses upon reading it...

What I don't get is this insane desire of some CG artists to be recognized by the rich and the worthess in the artsyfartsy bree and wine crowd.

YOU GUYS ARE ALREADY SO MUCH BETTER!!! You make magic they could not hope in their wildest dreams to create!!!

Kai01W
06-27-2005, 02:10 PM
Dr. Kane, I applaud you! I got a big kick out of your post, and I'd love to see the slack jawed faces of the rich and the worthless in the Greenwitch Village Art Houses upon reading it...

What I don't get is this insane desire of some CG artists to be recognized by the rich and the worthess in the artsyfartsy bree and wine crowd.

YOU GUYS ARE ALREADY SO MUCH BETTER!!! You make magic they could not hope in their wildest dreams to create!!!

That was a good laugh !! No surprise cliches are so dominant among CG art. Magic? Grow up!

-k

olijosman
06-27-2005, 03:03 PM
Mainly, I love the works which contribute ideas, not only good technique.Anyway I understand that a good technique is a good presentation, and this is awarded in forums.

barbapapa
06-27-2005, 03:07 PM
i guess its just about what is art and what is not. Art is an evolving language, and it doesent has to do anything with techniques or someting like that.For example how many artists have used oil paint in the last four centuries? thousands, and how many we know for their exceptional work?... few hundreds and not because they painted with oils.Even better how many artists where in Paris at the beggining of the 20th century? at least 8000 and the people that are in the art books are probably a hundred or so. These people are important because they changed the way of painting. Picasso is really important not because his paintings are beautiful or not, that really doesent matters, he is really important because he changed the way of seeing a painting, he changed the language of art at that moment, and thats why he is the most important artist on the XX century. The same with kandinsky or piet mondrian. I believe that this doesent has to do anything with taste or with concepts like "beauty" (i dont like the 70% of picasso´s art work, but im still able of recognize his crucial importance on the world of art).
CG is just a tool, but is a really young tool, it has many possibilities within. Ithink it has to find its own language (dont ask me which one because i dont know yet) but is like photography , whe it came out, it was trying to imitate painting , boring landscapes and portraits, but then it evolved and it started to use elements that where only to be found in photography (focal length , the way of using the shooter etc) and it started to produce images that were only posible with a camera. It developed its own language...CG is on the way , but is to young and too focused on techniques. Images need meaning and in many cases, CG is still imitating photography or painting.

X96
06-27-2005, 03:08 PM
I think it's going to get worse before it gets better.

jmBoekestein
06-27-2005, 03:09 PM
I'm a bad person to talk to about that... since I'm not a half bad penciller... :p Though I cheat. I use Hogarth's methodology :p



OOOOO! The arrogance! The INSENSITIVE HONESTY!!! The GUILE!!! This is why the Artsy Fartsy crowd don't accept 3D Artists... cause 3D Artists actually live in the real world... :p

WEll, I'm an unscholared, ignorant, amateur...:)...I hate all the stereotype stuff out here...it honestly doesn't do me much.

But indefense of educated people, they HAVE learnt accepotance and compassion. ;)

Alex Morris
06-27-2005, 03:11 PM
I think I read somewhere that this is more to do with the demographics of the people here. Certainly in drawings we all go through well-documented phases from child symbology to the obsessions of adolescence and the quest for detail and realism. I guess that "adult" art gets beyond this and searches for more meaning and less rigorous pursuit of the "real".

Many of the guys on these forums will be below the age of 25, and if they're aspiring to work in games then their artwork will reflect the mentality of teenagers. It would be interesting to know how many people on here have any formal art training which is normally focused on breaking all the bad habits we pick up until our late teens!

jmBoekestein
06-27-2005, 03:18 PM
Actually, the targetted demographic for games is 22-28years.

I know tons of young people making deep art. Why not here, I wouldn't know. Maybe the stuff posted here is a by product of the internet culture with it's on line events and so on.

There are millions of artists around, why are all of the cliche's getting here? :shrug: no definite answer from me I guess.


edit: and still, there is a lot of non cliche stuf on the galleries. But still, I can imagine that if you have inspiration it is about something. Something that matters to you. That's probably the biggest reason that I'm upset about the cliche's. Seems an aweful lot like indifference.

Stahlberg
06-27-2005, 06:58 PM
Actually, the targetted demographic for games is 22-28years.

Wow, that just doesn't seem possible... are you sure? Destroy All Humans, for instance. My kids love it, they laugh their asses off when that cow gets hypnotized and dances and hums, and the chickens, and ripping the brains out of people... Me? I know I'm 45, but I usually feel like I'm about 28... but I got bored of it after a few minutes, and a few chuckles. They would seem to be right smack in the middle of the target group, much more so than me anyway. And they're 10 and 12.

KBOC
06-27-2005, 07:13 PM
Grow up!

NO!!! :p

(I've seen where grownups live, I ain't going there... :p)

ashakarc
06-27-2005, 07:41 PM
Mainly, I love the works which contribute ideas, not only good technique.Anyway I understand that a good technique is a good presentation, and this is awarded in forums.
Olijosman, you've just touched on the very essence of "art". It is truly an idea with a technique. Mere techinque is craftsmanship, mere idea is a pretext.

monkeybeach
06-27-2005, 08:56 PM
I'm just tired of the scifi fantasy crap we see everyday. If I see another model of a gun in the Finished Work Gallery I think I'll shoot myself with it.

I suppose it's not the artists fault, it's more of a supply and demand problem. The Impressionists made art against the realism grain so why can't we make CG art that has more than just the naked chick with a gun cliches? I know that we all need to have a job that usually forces us to make those things, I just want to know if I'm not the only one getting tired of it.

you're not the only one. but i feel i have to defend all the misunderstood chicks with guns, even tho you weren't all out genre-bashing. sure, not that all of those chicks have anything to say, or any real depth at all, but just because something looks shallow and cliché on the surface it doesn't mean that it is. and vice versa, a lot of the seemingly deep "emotional" stuff on out there is just pretentious, pompous drivel if you bother to scratch the surface.

i'll be modest and use my own work as an example :)

my m&s entry is definately a "chick&gun" pic, even tho there aren't any actual chicks in it, and that's what people see i guess. people tend to find depth only where they look for it. and as most seem to have this huge fear of fantasy, of not being artistically correct, they expect nothing beyond the obviously childish parts, ie the big sword, and thus they overlook the story parts - like in my pic, the old weakening man desperate to project this image of strength to save himself from having to fight a foe he's not sure if he's strong enough to beat anymore. or if you look even deeper, how the servant kind of mirrors the feelings of (more or less) politically aware kids in the western world - born into a control society, voiceless, frustrated and isolated, and so on... i know i might be stretching it thin, and i probably failed to convey all that stuff and whatever, but it still goes to show - you can find almost anything in a picture, as long as you don't let the subject matter distract you. if you do, you are the shallow one, not the poor defenceless gun-toting chick..

as long as there's soul in your work, there's no need to apologize for making chick pics. every image painted doesn't have to change the world, and the urge to make something just because it's eyecatching, fun and cool is no less valid than the urge to paint something to like make some gothy teens feel deep and misunderstood... and so on..

jmBoekestein
06-27-2005, 10:03 PM
Wow, that just doesn't seem possible... are you sure? Destroy All Humans, for instance. My kids love it, they laugh their asses off when that cow gets hypnotized and dances and hums, and the chickens, and ripping the brains out of people... Me? I know I'm 45, but I usually feel like I'm about 28... but I got bored of it after a few minutes, and a few chuckles. They would seem to be right smack in the middle of the target group, much more so than me anyway. And they're 10 and 12.

hahaha, no truelly, remember half the games are based also on discovery of new things, mature content of a moral nature and so on. Not that kids dont' get that, but they don't need to often. Also the 22 to 28 target group has the money for buying a fifty dollar game, a teen doesn't, and I'm sure you consider the options very weel before giving your kids a game. At the least you can expect parents to not want to spoil their child, and probably keep distractions from school to a reasonable range.

I actually bought more games in my twenties than I ever had in total on any console I got from my parents.

DimensionalPunk
06-27-2005, 10:42 PM
I think I read somewhere that this is more to do with the demographics of the people here. Certainly in drawings we all go through well-documented phases from child symbology to the obsessions of adolescence and the quest for detail and realism. I guess that "adult" art gets beyond this and searches for more meaning and less rigorous pursuit of the "real".

Many of the guys on these forums will be below the age of 25, and if they're aspiring to work in games then their artwork will reflect the mentality of teenagers. It would be interesting to know how many people on here have any formal art training which is normally focused on breaking all the bad habits we pick up until our late teens!

Well said, although the majority of people in the game market actually do have formal art training. I think that there is a very large demographic of hobbyist 3D artist with no formal art training, most of them doing game mods. It's hard to say though which side of the market is shaping the look of the art, the developers or the players.



Wow, that just doesn't seem possible... are you sure? Destroy All Humans, for instance. My kids love it, they laugh their asses off when that cow gets hypnotized and dances and hums, and the chickens, and ripping the brains out of people... Me? I know I'm 45, but I usually feel like I'm about 28... but I got bored of it after a few minutes, and a few chuckles. They would seem to be right smack in the middle of the target group, much more so than me anyway. And they're 10 and 12.

Actually I do some work now and then for a game company who only do non-violent kids games and they are struggling big-time. I've heard the 22-28 y/old statistic as well and wonder if that data is getting tainted by young kids playing games targeted at the 22-28 y/olds.

John Keates
06-27-2005, 11:28 PM
Not since birth.. it says that he lost his sight as a child.

jmBoekestein
06-27-2005, 11:37 PM
Actually I do some work now and then for a game company who only do non-violent kids games and they are struggling big-time. I've heard the 22-28 y/old statistic as well and wonder if that data is getting tainted by young kids playing games targeted at the 22-28 y/olds.

Quite the possibility, trouble is parents nowadays don't even know. SO beware mr. Stahlberg, you're children might not be ignoring unsavory things or might not be choosing the right site. I woud use parental control. :)

I've even found horrible things on standard P2P clients, with parental locks on, and searching for just the latest stuff, literally.

rootdown
06-28-2005, 12:06 AM
Norman Rockwell once said something to the effect of he considers himself to be a turtle, and not a giraffe. He never tried to portray lofty ideas or deep symbolism in his illustrations because he felt that subject matter of that sort was beyond his reach, and so he stuck to what he knew. I think that there's a lot to that. The artwork that I do is going to be limited by the scope of my own experiences and quite honestly I'm not sure that I'm a genius, so I'll happily stick to goofy fairytales and let history decide whether or not I am in tune with the zeitgeist.

DimensionalPunk
06-28-2005, 12:15 AM
Quite the possibility, trouble is parents nowadays don't even know. SO beware mr. Stahlberg, you're children might not be ignoring unsavory things or might not be choosing the right site. I woud use parental control. :)

I've even found horrible things on standard P2P clients, with parental locks on, and searching for just the latest stuff, literally.

Censorship is a touchy subject, you being from the Netherlands should know that in places with more lenient drug laws there is a lower incidence of abuse. I think education is the key. It might not be the content of the game that entices children but the fact mentioned before that most of the game developer resources are targeting adult subjects therefore making better games. Stahlberg's kids can't help it if they can tell the difference between a slapped-together kids game and a product that has seen thousands of man-hours and big budget resources making it a major player in the game market. I say let them play.

jmBoekestein
06-28-2005, 12:42 AM
Censorship is a touchy subject, you being from the Netherlands should know that in places with more lenient drug laws there is a lower incidence of abuse. I think education is the key. It might not be the content of the game that entices children but the fact mentioned before that most of the game developer resources are targeting adult subjects therefore making better games. Stahlberg's kids can't help it if they can tell the difference between a slapped-together kids game and a product that has seen thousands of man-hours and big budget resources making it a major player in the game market. I say let them play.

That's the nuanced opinion, but I was talking internet and computer usage in general, I should've mentioned.
I didn't mean touchy subjects either, I'm talking readily available down right un mentionable stuff.

But otherwise I agree, education gets you there, to a certain degree, education that opens your window. There, also, is a choice to be made. What do you show on an unwritten page. The bare truth or something more gentle. And how harsh will the other pages seem if you do not show the barren filth. :)

Lunatique
06-28-2005, 12:53 AM
I'm slowly realizing that it's unrealisitc to expect the majority of any group of people to be intelligent, profound, expressive, original, and imaginative all the time. That's like expecting everyone to be witty, romantic, courageous, compassionate, noble, and passionate all the time. There is a reason why the best of the best stands out from the rest--because they DO possess many qualities that others don't have. So, it's really pointless to expect everyone to be the best of the best--if that was the case, no one would stand out. Most people are just not that special--with no interesting ideas to express. This is not elitism--it's the real world.

KBOC
06-28-2005, 01:17 AM
Censorship is a touchy subject, you being from the Netherlands should know that in places with more lenient drug laws there is a lower incidence of abuse.

I don't understand the connection between Censorship and legalized drugs... Germany and Austria, Irland and Norway, which have very strict Drug laws have lower rates of drug use than does the Netherlands. So it's not at all conclusive on that front if the Netherland's policy, which is for a tiny country, is good or bad. Comparing it to the U.S. would be ridiculous. Comparing the Nethrlands to various states tend to yield a more valid comparrison.

So far as Censorship... I still don't understand what the point was...

DimensionalPunk
06-28-2005, 01:46 AM
I don't understand the connection between Censorship and legalized drugs... Germany and Austria, Irland and Norway, which have very strict Drug laws have lower rates of drug use than does the Netherlands. So it's not at all conclusive on that front if the Netherland's policy, which is for a tiny country, is good or bad. Comparing it to the U.S. would be ridiculous. Comparing the Nethrlands to various states tend to yield a more valid comparrison.

So far as Censorship... I still don't understand what the point was...

My point is that deprivation leads to obsession. And I don't think that a comparison of the U.S. with anyone would get any noteworthy results, we're WAY to screwed up over here.:D

KBOC
06-28-2005, 01:54 AM
Deprivation leads to obsession... sure... in contries where people have a lot of time to kill, I'm sure that's true... Whatever...

How many people claim to have porn addictions in the U.S? How many are addicted to cigarrettes? Alcohol? Lots of depravation going on there... I think your observation is just a bit simplistic...

DimensionalPunk
06-28-2005, 02:33 AM
Lots of depravation going on there...

^I'm assuming that is sarcasm^
In fact there is a lot of depravation in the U.S. but not from lack of resources. Parents here think that denying their children knowledge of all things negative will prevent them from being interested in any of it once they do discover it. Deprivation leads to obsession.

CBee
06-28-2005, 02:52 AM
I think Sturgeon's Law explains the lack of quality art nicely.

“Ninety percent of everything is crud”

90% of CG is crud...
90% of Fine Art is crud...

Whoops, did I just say that? :D

Stahlberg
06-28-2005, 03:09 AM
trouble is parents nowadays don't even know. SO beware mr. Stahlberg, you're children might not be ignoring unsavory things or might not be choosing the right site. I woud use parental control.

They're being home-schooled, and I work from home, my computers are right next to the one they use, so no worries about that.
Anyway what could they possibly see on a computer screen that would actually REALLY damage their minds? (They're savvy enough not to interact with anything unknown on the net.)
The damage would be if I jumped up and screamed my head off every time they come across some porn, THAT would likely imprint some weird inhibitions or issues in them. They close down the porn pop-ups themselves cause they're simply not interested and it's getting in the way of the games.

About the topic - if they'd had forums back in Rembrandt's day, and if they'd had as many people as we have, you'd have seen just as much bad art as now - only it would have been all biblical allegories (excuses to show nudes), still lives, and livestock.

barbapapa
06-28-2005, 04:14 AM
About the topic - if they'd had forums back in Rembrandt's day, and if they'd had as many people as we have, you'd have seen just as much bad art as now - only it would have been all biblical allegories (excuses to show nudes), still lives, and livestock.

yes, good things and bad things have always existed, and in same proportions.

mangual
06-28-2005, 05:32 AM
The Internet now allows us to more quickly find all the crap that exists out there. That's something to remember because even in traditional artforms there has always been a great deal of cliche and uninspired creations. It's not a phenomenon unique to 3D/CG.

However, unlike with digital works and the Internet, before we didn't have the ability to instantly go browse through every brick-and-mortar gallery in the world only to realize: "oh wow, another bunch of fruits and a wine glass - there sure are a lot of those!"

The same can be said for writing. Soooo many books out there with basically the same plots, same hackneyed stereotypical characters, similar settings, painful dialog, etc...

And of course, many genres of music have their own problems. Two words: country music.

To single out 3D/CG art as being plagued by cliches is not fair and is more a matter of skewed perception because like I said, the immediacy and ease of seeing the artwork online from millions of people as opposed to other artforms which are distributed/shown in a more filtered and regulated way.

mosconariz
06-28-2005, 06:42 AM
I'm slowly realizing that it's unrealisitc to expect the majority of any group of people to be intelligent, profound, expressive, original, and imaginative all the time. That's like expecting everyone to be witty, romantic, courageous, compassionate, noble, and passionate all the time. There is a reason why the best of the best stands out from the rest--because they DO possess many qualities that others don't have. So, it's really pointless to expect everyone to be the best of the best--if that was the case, no one would stand out. Most people are just not that special--with no interesting ideas to express. This is not elitism--it's the real world.

I think Lunatique is lunatique... hehe, no, just joking... I think he's right

Near to my house, in a park, in sundays there are sometimes art fairs, there a lot of artists and a lot of crafts, all very nice and the stuff, but its obvious that you won't see anything new out there... is not art, is atesany, and no one bothers, people go and enjoy, people buy. And even, sometimes some people, even myself, get inspired...

Art is for genious...

It would be like expecting every scientific to make a great invention... just a few, just the best... just calm down and enjoy the CG show...

Blikkie
06-28-2005, 07:30 AM
Anyway what could they possibly see on a computer screen that would actually REALLY damage their minds?

Goatse.cx? Yeah, i know, bad joke, the site has gone down now as well.

Stahlberg
06-28-2005, 07:58 AM
Yeah, I was accidentally exposed to "tubgirl.jpg" once, too... on this very forum in fact, so you're not safe anywhere... and that probably fried some of my neurons for good... but my point is, strange as it may seem, I think a child would bounce back quicker from something like that, than I did... :)

(And please, if you're that curious, PM me to ask what was in that image, for the love of God don't go googling it or you WILL be sorry.)

floze
06-28-2005, 08:23 AM
(And please, if you're that curious, PM me to ask what was in that image, for the love of God don't go googling it or you WILL be sorry.)
Hell, yeah, that's one of the grossest things I've ever seen. Was something like a running gag in the office for a while.. goddamit. I guess things like that destroy some parts of your inner engine of inspiration that let's you create esthetic art.

ashakarc
06-28-2005, 08:29 AM
I don't know what you are talking about, but my neurons are already shaken

Blikkie
06-28-2005, 08:50 AM
Yup, mine are already trembling in fear.

*goes in do not google mode*

Actually google safesearch is quite nice, for my WIP I needed a picture of a swallow and I was quite hesitant to enter it in picture search, but the results were clean. :-)

Fahrija
06-28-2005, 10:06 AM
(And please, if you're that curious, PM me to ask what was in that image, for the love of God don't go googling it or you WILL be sorry.)

hell - I agree to the others > sounds very disturbing. Some things should be unseen.



Anyway what could they possibly see on a computer screen that would actually REALLY damage their minds? (They're savvy enough not to interact with anything unknown on the net.)

ho****house.com
I never jumped in > I´m just afraid to do > maybe it just contains fake-stuff but I don´t care. Sometimes you have to bear down human curiosity.



regarding the content of artwork:
I bow to people who´s imaginary is so boundless that they are able to disregard any typical content to create their artwork. I personaly enjoy watching artworks which show new or different worlds/environments which give me the possibility to immerse somewhere else, even if it is just for a second. Everyone has his own goals and intentions when it comes to create an image and as long as they stand by their works I respect their effort and achievements though the content doesn´t hit my nerve.



fahrija

Lunatique
06-29-2005, 04:34 AM
To save Steven from having to answer tons of PM's about tubgirl, I'll just describe it here:

It's basically a picture of a very fat girl sitting in a bathtub, squirting out diarrhea, landing all over her face, body..etc. It's absolutely the most disgusting thing ever.

erilaz
06-29-2005, 04:38 AM
Note to self: Never go to the art discussion forum while eating lunch again.

ashakarc
06-29-2005, 04:39 AM
To save Steven from having to answer tons of PM's about tubgirl, I'll just describe it here:

It's basically a picture of a very fat girl sitting in a bathtub, squirting out diarrhea, landing all over her face, body..etc. It's absolutely the most disgusting thing ever.

Thanks for the spoiler, I would have preferred to see the notorious image than letting my imagination fly free with that description . . . yikes

JMcWilliams
06-29-2005, 04:42 AM
Thanks for the spoiler, I would have preferred to see the notorious image than letting my imagination fly free with that description . . . yikes

No, you really don't want to see it. I let my curiosity get the better of me earlier. Now I need to just go away and curl up in a fetal position for a while. :argh::surprised **shudder**

Alex Morris
06-29-2005, 12:59 PM
hehe.........go away for 2 days and look what happens!

I wasn't saying that everyone on here was a teenager, but just wondering. I just finished reading "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain" and there was a chapter in there on children's art development. Don't have it here in front of me but it got really interesting when it came to artwork in the late teens, because apparently they obsess over certain predictable things and detail and realism (varies according to sex too). Of course we never did things like draw endless cars and babes etc did we?? ;) - Anyway thats where I was coming from.

archerx
06-30-2005, 02:05 AM
It's basically a picture of a very fat girl sitting in a bathtub, squirting out diarrhea, landing all over her face, body..etc. It's absolutely the most disgusting thing ever.

well she's not fat, but the funny thing about that picture is how they censored her vagina ahahahahaha oh come on who's going to look at that with all that other distracting stuff?

Link_DX
06-30-2005, 02:24 AM
[QUOTE=Dr. Ira Kane]We live in a period in our history that suffers as hell from those 'artists', let's face it art isn't for everyone, and some shouldn't make art.

I think anyone can do whatever they want to do. Just because one thinks a certain piece of art is not "beautiful", does not mean that the person who made it is not an artist. It also doesn't rectify their proposed isolation from it. If they want to create something which in their mind is beautiful, let them. He/she is not forcing one to look upon it and be amazed...maybe I read your POV in the wrong manner, so correct me if I am wrong.

DimensionalPunk
06-30-2005, 03:10 AM
Most of the stuff seen today that was made digitaly I would call "computer graphics". I want to see more digital ART! Art that isn't defined by quality but expression. Art should make you think about what the artist is trying to say. I'm tired of images that were inspired by the idea to create a cool graphic.

Here's an example of something on this forum that I consider "art". (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=216139)

floze
06-30-2005, 03:27 AM
Most of the stuff seen today that was made digitaly I would call "computer graphics". I want to see more digital ART! Art that isn't defined by quality but expression. Art should make you think about what the artist is trying to say. I'm tired of images that were inspired by the idea to create a cool graphic.

Here's an example of something on this forum that I consider "art". (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=216139)
That's thin ice your walking on. The discussion of what's art and what's not has been started by someone else than you, long time ago. Art defines itself, it's not defined by peoples opinions (in the end, it is defined by the collaborative mind of society probably). Just think of a black quadrate on a white canvas.. is that what you call 'art'? For many people it seems to be.

ashakarc
06-30-2005, 04:07 AM
(in the end, it is defined by the collaborative mind of society probably).

You mean the Collective mind, right? I agree on your comment though.

At a global scale, art's home is culture. At a human scale, art's home is personal taste. These are the two main levels of subjectivism regarding art. Art is in our minds, not outside. The object of art is the medium that carries the message to us. Personally, I would rather not to debate art from an Ontological point of view.

DimensionalPunk
06-30-2005, 06:40 AM
That's thin ice your walking on. The discussion of what's art and what's not has been started by someone else than you, long time ago. Art defines itself, it's not defined by peoples opinions (in the end, it is defined by the collaborative mind of society probably). Just think of a black quadrate on a white canvas.. is that what you call 'art'? For many people it seems to be.

I wasn't trying to define art, I was trying to define what I feal is in the most part absent from this medium. Call it whatever you want, I'd like to see more of it.

overcontrast
06-30-2005, 08:56 AM
Is anyone else here frustrated with the dribble that is continuing to come from the CG medium? This medium has so much potential and it's being pissed on by people who learn the software and study nothing about art. And in reply to tevih's question, “can CG break into the Art World?” I don't know, true artists will make art at no concern for whether it will sell or not. I'm just tired of the scifi fantasy crap we see everyday. If I see another model of a gun in the Finished Work Gallery I think I'll shoot myself with it.

I suppose it's not the artists fault, it's more of a supply and demand problem. The Impressionists made art against the realism grain so why can't we make CG art that has more than just the naked chick with a gun cliches? I know that we all need to have a job that usually forces us to make those things, I just want to know if I'm not the only one getting tired of it.

first of all i do agree with u in some extent. I think these days most of the cg artform follows a closely related genre like sci-fi/fantacy. and for some reason we see that ony in CG art... i think i got the reason. most ppl who are interested in CG cause they are technology freaks. All they think of is sci-fi and fantacy... and this tool (the computer) lets them do it... but trust me, after making a tons of Orcs and Cyborg that inner child tends to grow up for real art... so u can say most of us sci-fi ppl are kids now... just let us grow and giv some more tym... and mean while we'll even learn more abt good arts.. :deal:

kabojnk
06-30-2005, 10:03 AM
I very much like the art that comes through this forum, but I'm inclined to agree that there's a lot of sub-par art. The greatest example I can think of is digital blasphemy (http://www.digitalblasphemy.com). Way back in the late 90s DB's wallpapers were a big hit, especially in the Linux show-off community (those people who spend their lazy days taking screenshots of their "cool" desktops). Anyway, It seemed that the standard ingredients for DB's crap selection at the time were:


Shotty render of a Bryce5 scene, with surreal landscapes and colors.
A Poser model, sometimes untextured, generally unmodified outside of the Poser program.
Spheres, floating above the water in the Bryce scene, textured with your run-of-the-mill raytrace reflections.
God, that stuff really bugged me. You still see it from time to time, though Digital Blasphemy's gotten better. I'm sure a lot of people love the fantastic elements, but they just don't come off as being anything near professional or done with much skill--more like screwing aroudn with sliders and checkboxes until accidentally stumbling on something that looks "cool."

And another thing. I will be forthright with saying that my modeling skills are horrible, so I have no room to knock anyone else's models. But I've been seeing a LOT of friggin Orc and Goblin models floating around. I guess maybe this is come to be expected given the recent releases of the LotR movies as well as various games that employ the such types of characters; however, after seeing so many Orc renders, I've become almost numb and indifferent to appreciating the beauty in them.

Instead of me going, "Ooh, that's beautifully detailed," I'm now going, "Yes, yes. I get it. Your in love with ZBrush. Can I see something else now?"

Funny enough, the most recent submission here at CGTalk that I found interesting and original incorporated the teapot primitive: Teapots Havings a Shower (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=252054). It's so cute that I instantly fell in love with it. I would give that a higher rating than yet another Orc render anyday.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Hope I didn't step on anyone's toes who makes all of those Orc pictures. The renders are all great, so it's not a question of skill. :)

JMcWilliams
06-30-2005, 10:19 AM
first of all i do agree with u in some extent. I think these days most of the cg artform follows a closely related genre like sci-fi/fantacy. and for some reason we see that ony in CG art... i think i got the reason. most ppl who are interested in CG cause they are technology freaks. All they think of is sci-fi and fantacy... and this tool (the computer) lets them do it... but trust me, after making a tons of Orcs and Cyborg that inner child tends to grow up for real art... so u can say most of us sci-fi ppl are kids now... just let us grow and giv some more tym... and mean while we'll even learn more abt good arts.. :deal:

Sci-fi or any other genre can be mature and grown up, it's all about implementation. It's how you do it, not what you do.

Ranc0r
07-01-2005, 04:18 AM
To be honest, I think a lot of the people who are posting work are aspiring VFX or game artists and as such are simply creating work that they feel is relevent to that career.

!BINGO! give this man a cookie!

JMcWilliams
07-01-2005, 04:21 AM
!BINGO! give this man a cookie!

And I really do like cookies, so yeh... send em my way ;) (chocolate chip preferably)

vashts1985
07-09-2005, 04:53 PM
there is a big difference between creativity and originality.
true some of the best art is a combination of both but not allways
all you need to be creative is to create. dosent matter if its original or not

on the same note, there is a seperation between 3d art and 3d design. i would not say that a render of a gun or a car would be art, but more design. i personally am more into the design area of 3d modeling. on the same note i cant really draw and painting is greek to me. none of that is gonna stop me from my 3d works though. why? cause i enjoy it.

i just dont see why you have to complain about what everyone else is chosing to model or draw or create. why cant you worry more about your own works? if you dont like a certain genre dont create works in that genre and leave everyone that does enjoy that genre alone

just my 2 cents

btw you cant give me a cryptic discription of a item (tubgirl, thanks Steven:rolleyes: ) and ask me not to go look it up. curiosity killed the cat. in this case though, curiosity gave me very bad stomach pains which lead to a very nasty puke session ofer the toilet.:sad:

Atwooki
07-10-2005, 12:40 AM
Well 'TubGirl' sounds pretty damn er.....original (if disturbing!) to say the least, and thanks Steven and Lunatique for saving my 'googling' fingers a journey.....

She is however memorable.

As such, should you feel more inclined to depict images far-removed from the 'gun-totees', 'pretty girls', and 'muscle-bound-super-hero-generics' you believe are curently suffocating these forums in the name of 'art', then it would seem your chances of standing out from the crowd and perhaps gaining some recognition would be greatly enhanced.

So, fill the niche, use the opportunity and go for it!

Chris

StylusMonkey
07-11-2005, 02:09 PM
I think that's what the heart of my frusteration was all about. I just got through helping someone who is having trouble modeling a face. I asked if they had any reference pictures,
"No but I know what I want it to look like."
"Then maybe it would help to scetch it out and use image planes."
"I can't draw a face."
"Then you can't model a face either."

Goddamn that is so true.

StylusMonkey
07-11-2005, 02:12 PM
Funny enough, the most recent submission here at CGTalk that I found interesting and original incorporated the teapot primitive: Teapots Havings a Shower (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=252054). It's so cute that I instantly fell in love with it. I would give that a higher rating than yet another Orc render anyday.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Hope I didn't step on anyone's toes who makes all of those Orc pictures. The renders are all great, so it's not a question of skill. :)

Of course you'd love it, its made my Keytoon, Keytoon...ROCKS.

studiomaxer3d
07-11-2005, 05:57 PM
I totally agree with an earlier post. Not everyone is a GREAT artist. Some of us are just ok. Some of us have to work extremely hard to be original. Some of us can't be original.

Out of all the people doing CG most of them are bound to be just OK. Most CG people don't have strong traditional backgrounds. Some just have good technical skills and can run software really well.

So the people with a small amount of artistic vision are going to create sexy woman and nice renders of cars. Because they don't have what it takes to make truly original and artistic work.

So me, I don't mind all the cliche stuff floating around. I've done my share in contributing to it. Developing as an artist while learning a constantly changing computer craft can be very difficult. And for those who work "regular" jobs, the difficulty increases as their time to dedicate to Art decreases.

levin
07-11-2005, 07:23 PM
whats worse is talking about "im sick of cliche art" (as if one knows any better)... its so cliche in itself. a bandwagon view everyone's jumpin on. just do what you think is good art if you're sick of the done to death ones.

studiomaxer3d
07-11-2005, 07:25 PM
Well said! I think that post should end this thread!

DDS
07-13-2005, 12:50 AM
I wonder if that guy that knows how to draw so much, knows something about sculpting or painting?

I think that they're both as important in CG as drawing itself...

kabojnk
07-13-2005, 01:22 AM
whats worse is talking about "im sick of cliche art" (as if one knows any better)... its so cliche in itself. a bandwagon view everyone's jumpin on. just do what you think is good art if you're sick of the done to death ones.

This is the first thread I've seen that broaches the subject. Granted, I'm new... but new members are pouring in everyday. So, if what you say is true, we don't even know that a bandwagon exists until we see three or four of these discussions pop up. By we I mean those who have a fairly low postcount.

I think this thread is titled a bit more invectively than it ought, but I think it effects some honest discussion though I guess I see no problem in rebuking the topic itself as a tangent. The only thing I hate about threads like this is that they can get into debates of semantics and that's when you start seeing, "[Good] art is..." declarations, and it really agitates me, though I don't know why.

@magic man: You're right about Keytoon Studios. I visited their website recently and was very impressed. I really loved the Bucket Shorts bit. You can also see a very apparent talent for modeling, texturing and lighting urban areas, like street curbs with patches of pavement, stripped paint and cracks in the cement. I love detail like that. :)

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