CGTalk - Any LW'ers that use XSI and/or Messiah want to share an opinion?

Sil3

06-21-2005, 05:57 PM

want to augment my LW with something that has nodal shading, a new renderer (though I'll still mostly be using LW and Fprime), and more importantly better general animation than LW.

I'm kind of torn between Messiah and XSI foundation. I think that each has it's strengths and weaknesses, but it's hard for me to tell which one would be a better "deal". I love messiah so far, but the community is small (not always a bad thing). XSI might have more options, but it doens't run on Macs (I use both systems). I also have a childish dislike for anything made by Avid (and Alias for that mater).

Anyone use each and know which one they like best for animation? Getting sub-pixel displacment, SSS, nodal shadding, and a new renderer with each is just ice'n.

PS- Motion builder is out of the question as I could get point oven, pmG, and XSI foundation for less!

Messiah doesn´t run on Macs either....

It´s not very dificult to see where´s the better deal IMO, since XSI droped it´s price to $495 for Foundations u will get a full application (ok no Rigid Bodies or Hair but...)

The thing is see if XSI suits your workflow. XSI is a great piece of code, but it´s not so simple as it might look, since u have "power" to alter almost anything, that "power" comes with a price, sometimes simple things in LW/Messiah takes a lot more time to do in XSI.

Texturing and Render settings in XSI are some of them, but i admit that i never really used Messiah render engine, only some fast F9´s :)

Animation wise XSI is amazing, specially the Mixer, Messiah on the other hand has a blazing fast OpenGL, XSI is a lot slower compared to Messiah in this regard (I miss the ability of simply press play and not making OpenGL preview renders all the time)

Like u said every tool has it´s own strenght´s and weakness´s, it´s really a matter of testing them out in a real production scenario, this is the only way to see if the tool lives to your expectations or not IMO

Sil3

06-21-2005, 06:00 PM

I'm curious about this, too. Is XSI's character animation smoother than LW's, for example?

U cant even compare the two really... XSI wins hands down on LW in this one IMO...i had to go back to LW this last Sunday to help out a friend delivering some animation and oh boy....the whole experience felt so outdated...doesnt mean LW cant do the job, it can, but against XSI i prefer to Character Animate in XSI anyday vs LW.

mocaw

06-21-2005, 06:24 PM

So Sil3 have you stopped using Messiah altogether and gone over to XSI? And which version of messiah were you using? Do you still use LW as well?

I must admit that after I downloaded each app it was easier for me to get into Messiah, but that seems more based on it's LW user friendlyness. XSI had so many buttons and drop downs I freak out and started having MAX flash backs- but you're right about the power vs. complexity thing...

RobertoOrtiz

06-21-2005, 06:35 PM

My friend this is the kind of thread that would be more welcomed on either the Messiah forum of the Softimage forum.

-R

Sil3

06-21-2005, 06:40 PM

ThE_JacO

06-21-2005, 06:41 PM

we're not picky here Rob :)
as long as people make sense, and they have used both enough to back up their opinions, it will be fine.
Flamewars won't be tolerated obviously... well, unless they are funny ones :D

mocaw

06-21-2005, 07:09 PM

Sorry to post this question here- it just seems the likely place I'd find (and we are) users of LW that use messiah and XSI.

mocaw

06-21-2005, 07:11 PM

I dont use Messiah for Pro work for a long long time now mainly because where i live nobody uses it and since 99% of the times i need to send the files to the clients, they need them to be in either LW or XSI format so they can do whatever they want with it.

LW i use it regularly together with XSI, they complement each other very well IMO, where one lacks the other shines :D

Couldn't you just use something like pointoven though? Or are you clients needing quite a bit more beyond just animation/models. I take it you're handing them whole setup scenes then and not just animation...

Sil3

06-21-2005, 08:02 PM

Most of the times they need the bones in there too, so they can make small adjustments if needed, besides im much more at ease in XSI now and also work on a XSI/LW house so i like to keep it simpler for me :)

leigh

06-21-2005, 08:48 PM

The biggest fundamental difference between XSI and LightWave is that XSI is more flexible. Simple as that. It has more flexibility in all aspects - however, as has already been pointed out, that flexibility comes at the price of a more complicated piece of software to master. Sure, this means that some things can take a bit longer to set up than in LightWave, but the advantage is that you have more control over everything you're doing.

From a shading/texturing/lighting/rendering/render passes standpoint, I have grown to love XSI for this reason. However, I never deal with animation data myself so I cannot give any insight on that side of things. I can, however, attest to the fact that XSI is an incredible piece of software and a package that I enjoy using on a daily basis, both at work and at home.

mocaw

06-21-2005, 09:00 PM

Just so we can keep this from being about the problems with LW- which many of us know either first hand or indirectly, we should try and keep this about Messiah vs. XSI from a LW user standpoint. I know the line between all of this is grey and thin, but I just don't want this to degrade into a LW bash fest (not out of hurt feelings-more to keep things positive).

Just playing with the demos of Messiah and XSI has already opened up my eyes to certain strengths- this just in 1 hr of doing tutorials on each.

I'd say that each package is more complex to a degree than LW in the areas where they can compliment a LW pipeline. ;)

ThE_JacO

06-21-2005, 09:08 PM

mocaw

06-21-2005, 10:42 PM

"Messiah VS XSI" sounds really bad mate, a comparison is not necessarily a VS, especially since it's a world of trade-off', need complexity, give up immediacy and all that :)

anyway, it would help to know what kind of use you have for 3D applications.

If you aim to be employable then chances are that, without even discussing the pros and cons of the two SWs, XSI or Maya will give you access to a wider employers basin.
If you want to work on your own, "sealed in a fishbowl" style then pipeline issues will need to be approached differently then if you were to ease in into an existing framework...

it's necessary info if you want a comparison, once out of a context you simply get personal opinions and random blabbering... pretty much like mine.

The issues you've stated are the ones I've been mulling over. Right now I only use 3D for graphic design/illustration, and for small personal projects. Lightwave covers the graphic design and illustration area well- it's fast for quick projects and looks good. My personal projects are more motiongraphics oriented/some animation with a need for...how do I say it...extras? I guess the best way to put it is that I'm not an "animator" but I do need to do animations on quite a few things- some will be complex.

Right now I'm about to embark on a large project (30min of motion graphics and animation) for a music label that is going to employ more of what I know in motion graphics etc. 30min is quite a bit of work for me- and I know that at a certain point LW is going to do 80% of it, but that the remaining animation/effects will probably be better done elsewhere. To add to the problem is the fact that this project must be started on SOON! That's where the catch is. Messiah would help for this project fairly easily, but what about the next one...and the next? I can't decide if I should look long term or short term on this. I plan on using point oven to move things back and forth, and to comp what can't be.

This project alone could lead me further away from doing graphic design/illustration and more towards motion graphics and animation depending on how well it goes (which I wouldn't mind).

Some people say that having a project and having to do it in the "new app" is the best way to learn that application...but right now that logic feels crazy. Maybe I should just suck it up and stick in LW...but after toying with messiah and XSI it seems hard to do...

yog

06-22-2005, 02:49 AM

mocaw

06-22-2005, 03:53 AM

I'll start off by saying I haven't used Messiah since the ver-1.5 plug-in (as opposed to the newer stand alone version) so my comments may be a little out of date.

Both are very capable, and both far more flexible than LW, however with flexibility comes options, and with options comes complexity, here's where the two programs differ. I found Messiah laid everything out in front of you all the time, so your menu always looked complex, where as XSI has as great a level of complexity (if not more), but it tends to give you the simplified version up front, then if you wanted it stepped you back into the various levels of complexity.

Whilst altering a skeleton once rigged is easier in Messiah, I found the actual initial rigging far easier in XSI, especially when it came to setting up relationships and expressions etc. One of the reasons that altering the rig on a Messiah character is easier is that Messiah (at least the plug-in version) dosn't have weighting/enveloping, which I always found restrictive.

I'm struggling to remember if Messiah had non linear animation capability, I don't think it did, but I might be wrong. If your only used to NLA in LW, don't let it scare you (I know NLA in LW scares me ;)). In LW I found NLA a whole new level of complexity with very little return, whereas in XSI NLA is like your best friend, it's there to help you, not hinder you.

My overall impression was that if I wanted something complex I would go with Messiah, or if I wanted something quick and simple I stuck with LW. In XSI I find I can have both at the same time.

Final point, even though Messiah plug-in was specifically designed to work with LW, I found it took me quite a while to become comfortable with it, partly because it was set out so differently than LW, but primarily worked so differently at quite a foundimental level. Ironically XSI feels a lot more similar to LW than Messiah did.

Messiah does have NLA and it's very well implemented in 2.X- in fact it's a main part of the whole messiah "engine" now. So far each one has amazed me- and not in the big gee-wiz features that make the front page, but the simple yet thoughtful ones you find in the simple manual. For instance- the messiah graph editor/dope track is by far the best intergrated one I've used so far. Just the simple way of editing the keys etc. is so direct and so powerful and the fact that it's always there and updated to what you're doing. In XSI I've become amazed at simple things like using R(value,value) and L(value,value) in numeric inputs- these things are simple- but sooo powerful for use in animation. It seems each of these apps is doing something nice in that way- often there is an attempt at consistancy throughout them so that these features work almost anywhere and with anything. This "relativity" makes them harder to learn since they are based around a few huge and powerful concepts that seem like they'll take a while to "sink" in. Hell the fact that in each one almost EVERYTHING can connect to EVERYTHING makes a LW users brain spazzzim!

For me Messiah and XSI both feel closer to LW than say Maya or Max in use. I enjoy that they extensivly use control keys everywhere and that XSI lets you "float" over a tool and get its control key- or see it in a drop down.

I guess with point oven and a lot of money no body would ever have to worry about which app to get since it connects them all...

policarpo

06-22-2005, 03:53 AM

Mocaw, well, from a Motion Graphics and Graphic Design Standpoint, XSI is going to be the better choice for you.

I am in a similar boat as yourself, coming from a background of still imagery and now motion graphics work. I own XSI, and it does provide a lot of the flexibility I would have liked to have had previously.

I'm in a different camp however, because, while I own XSI and am learning to slowly exploit it, I have dropped LW entirely for another application (C4D) which services my print and motion graphics work. But XSI represents the tool I am nursing along for the sake of CA and an added tool in the arsenal.

If your focus is on getting a highly flexible addition to your existing toolset, and your focus is CA, then I'd go for messiah @ $299.00, 'cause it plugs in nicely with LW. However, if your quest is a parametric based tool that can satisfy a lot of what you are currently missing in Motion Graphics and Print while fulfilling CA and texturing requirements, well...XSI is the choice to go for. It will resolve all of these issues.

Heck...just look @ psyop. Those buggers do awesome Motion Graphics work...and well...they are XSI gods!

Either way, they are both great tools. At $495 for XSI foundation and $299 for messiah...it's little more than a weekend of hard work. You just have to figure out where your priorities lay for the new tool. 1 is a complete solution, while the other is a specific solution to a need.

Cheers.

T4D

06-23-2005, 03:36 AM

animation wise XSI wins by miles
1/ character rigging you can setup rigs that just make LW look dumb
2/ you can setup character animation work flow that just makes LW look dumb
3/ you work while doing Charcter animation in a way that makes LW look dumb

BUT surfaces and setting the render up in XSI that makes me look Dumb LOL :D

I got most of XSI in afew weeks But the nodes surface and setting the render is a very Powerfull and complex thing it Took alot longer,

I got it now but there's is a big different Between LW KISS and XSI you can do anything setup

Sorry only played with Messiah so don't know

NanoGator

06-23-2005, 03:44 AM

T4D

06-23-2005, 04:18 AM

well the rigging options are HUGE constrains and expressions work prefectly on before or after IK or anyway you want NO BAKING

( contrains are something LW just doesn't really have, you can contrain a object to a path or a surface or a value or anything and the item will follow and not go pass set limit and I have never seen and error with it Think the rigs in Robot how the metal all moved around each other But the model still deformed and scaled in all directions.

You can setup HUNDREDS !! of these controls & expressions around the rig and NOTHING slows down your interface with you character ( unlike LW once you get too about 10 or so, you start to fighting the rig or find ways to get around it EG -animators rig and a render rig No need for that in XSI ) In xsi if you got the that leve ( which would mean nearly houndsand of expression on a rig you can easly fit it by throw thing to another layer and tuen that layer off Better and fast then LW but I have seen no need for it yet.

an exsample of this is the default rigger that comes with the package
this default rig has more Expression etc in it then i would ever want in a LW rig
But works a great !

the Opengl SubD rendering is lighting speed compaired to LW

the graph edit can be setup to be a truely wonderfull thing

you can truely LOCK OFF a channels or even rename them so you never see it again ( never see a scale channel again if you wish )

the Motion mixer in XSI IS THE TIME LINE unlike LW motion mixer that's a plugin over they somewhere half connect to things, XSI Motion Mixer IS connected to EVERYTHING !
this freaked me out at first BUT WOW it's a total different world and the way it should be

ALSO PLUGINs XSI plugins aren't plugins as you think of them in LW
They have full access to all of XSI so plugin arent plugins they become truely part of the package something even NT can't do with the plugin they make.

Plus you have spline IK & the IK system in XSI Is Amazing you have to see it
IKFK blending to a degree that makes IKB look like a crap toy for kids
Dynamic bones that Work in real time no cal time ( auto ears, tails fat wobble - No setup time just draw the bones and tell XSI what it is )

the timeline and dopesheet in XSi also have had alot more time spend on them and you can feel it as you work much nicer ( there's also a dope sheet in the graph editor Something that's extemely useful )

selection sets better in XSI

Handles and Switching Coordinate systems WOW

even simple stuff like parenting is SO much more in XSI

the only thing that XSI does not completely make LW bad in, is endomorphs creation
I like the endomorphs list in modeler and the way you edit and create endo's
THo i have moved to Modo so LW doesn't get a look in there anymore as well .

daviddrbal

06-23-2005, 01:28 PM

Want work with LW? Go for Messiah. Do you want have free hands to do whatever you want? Go for XSI.

As an animator I can give you a few features what makes XSI great animation tool for you.

1. Nice rigging and simple enveloping .) bones, splines, box deformers, lattice, tail simulation ... and even that remember that bones are not only one who can help you modify shape of the object .))

2. Animation Mixer... after you try XSI animation mixer you stop calling LW animation mixer with same name .)

3. Shape animation.) what else to say. Its different story then morphes in LW. Change shapes anytime everywhere and specialy as you need at the moment .))

4. Easy to learn, easy to use, easy to fall in love with XSI

5. Constraints

6. IK-FK blender - easy

7. UV maps animation - not talking about textures itself, but every UVmaps positions and all transform could be animated

8. Layers

9. then there are many other scripts made by XSI users what you will love like Stretch bones, Boolean shader, ...

man I could write book about what I found in XSI what wasn't solved in LW, but better then talk try it.)

ThE_JacO

06-23-2005, 01:59 PM

Hey Thomas, could you go into a little more detail about how XSI's CA tools are better than LW's? I ask because I'm incredibly naieve about what's out there. I don't know much about rigging outside of LW. I'm also curious if you could talk a little about how the interaction speed is different.

I've had to think a bit before answering to this, but I decided to take the chance.
while reading my post bear in mind that, while I DO know LW, my first hand experience is a bit dated, but I do have some fresh and more recent views about it from animators we employed recently who worked with LW pipelines.
Consider it more a summary of why I like to work in XSI if you want, rather then a comparison, as my job here, and the one I'm headed to in July, involves anything between 30 and 60 hours a week of character work.

XSI's IK is incredibly stable and responsive.
Soft has the longest and most solid headstart in providing commercial access to IK, and you can tell from day0 that years of production use brought it up to the level it is at.

chains are implicitly defined, have multiple solving algorithms to pick from, have a very solid visual representation of their defining elements (like critical angles, solving plane, non euler axis sets, order of rotation etc.).

constraints, while FIFO stacked and not parithetic like maya's, are VERY versatile and extremely solid, and they will work with everything, and I DO mean everything.

the expressions system in XSI is a bit dated in its presentation, as it's obviously inherited from Soft, it's however blazing fast to evaluate, predictable and well wedged in inside the workflow.
The downside is that the way it connects to elements, and it's syntax, do smell a bit old, this can take a bit to get people used to it as it will at some point require extensive knowledge of the scene structure and syntax (we're only talking about the most complex setups you can get off expressions), it does however cover the two most important things in one: solid and fast.

when expressions don't suffice, scripted expressions (a form of SCOPs) will get you FAR past anything else you could imagine.
a very good and live connection to elements, both in and out going, can live on ANY property or parameter in the scene, and the amount and extension of work you can get done in one is not short of being able to script a whole dynamics system into a live connected OP (I infact have rigged several things with rope/string/spring dynamics with complex SCOPs), and the performance is between decent and staggering for rigging purposes.
the downside is that in foundation, while SCOPs can live and you can change their parameters, you can't create new ones from scratch or editing a live one, but I think it's only fair that such a technical feature didn't make it into a version that CGS members can get hold of for 395$

weighting in XSI is well presented and constantly evolving toward making it even easier with every version.
the painting system is fast and responsive, and with the split construction history you can have a window showing a static model (easy to paint on) and another one displaying in realtime how your deformations will work in any pose at any frame.

several options are present, from binding the influence of a deformer to inner and outer bounds defined by implicit objects, to simple painting.

the toolset is complete, with symmetry painting, symmetry templates, mirroring system, and even a solid and immediate connection template to move and properties and data between entirely different setups.

I'm also very fond of the SDK in those regards, as I've got some really good results in no time when writing my own set of tools to aid me in my rigging process.

the mixer, deeply tied in inside the architecture since the very first alphas, is also one of the most underrated and most useful tools to setup rigging scenes, where you can mute/unmute, solo and blend in different poses, animations and compensation shapes in split seconds, making rig proofing very fast.

the display (as I already mentioned), the toolbar and the windows are well laid out and logical.
All elements in a chain can be colour coded and iconized clearly and simply, making the life of animators a lot easier when you estabilish a convention for icons/use.
My only beef with this part of the game is that bones can't be displayed as shaded yet, but Soft is aware of this and I'm quite positive it's on their to-do list in the next couple updates.

these are just a few of the reasons why I actually enjoy (most time) my job when using XSI a lot more then when I have to do it in another app.
Hopefully it will encourage an interesting rigging spin-off in this thread or in a new one.

mocaw

06-23-2005, 02:44 PM

"...but I think it's only fair that such a technical feature didn't make it into a version that CGS members can get hold of for 395$"

Not to fight over peanuts here, but is it 495 or 395? Does the $395 price tag come, as it seems you said, if you're a CGS memeber?

These descriptions make Foundation sound just fine for the average LW user since the average LW user isn't working in a huge pipeline and doesn't extensivly use expressions, pre-built rigs etc. What are the two big diffrences between the cloth systems? Is it a speed system change etc.? I will say that LW's cloth dynamics in 8 worked fairly well- and were fast if you knew what you were doing.

ThE_JacO

06-23-2005, 02:53 PM

if you're a CGS member, and live in a country where standing resellers agreements don't complicate the situation, you'll get a free e-voucher thingy to buy foundation for 395$
no strings attached.

as for the cloth system, Syflex (a 2k$ system in advanced only) is blazing fast and very well production proven.
I found myself using the old XSI cloth (the one in all versions) more and more recently, as it works on clusters, it kicks the hell out of syflex on subframe computation, and is generally more solid for heavy drapery, whereas syflex' speed will sometimes let you down on collisions with very fast moving elements, and it's a lot harder to squeeze heavy weight drapery behaviour out of it.

mocaw

06-23-2005, 11:23 PM

Thanks again for the info JacO! I like the idea of the cloth working well more than having fast calc times and major flaws.

Sbowling

08-29-2005, 03:37 AM

What are the two big diffrences between the cloth systems? Is it a speed system change etc.? I will say that LW's cloth dynamics in 8 worked fairly well- and were fast if you knew what you were doing.

While I haven't had a chance to check out the cloth in XSI I would definitely say that LightWave's cloth and dynamics are the "bottom of the bucket, in there just so they can say they have them" type of setup. I seriously doubt that the XSI Cloth could be any worse that what is in lightwave. If you check the lightwave message boards, you will see many, many people have trouble getting the cloth to do ANYTHING. I personally spent an entire day of work trying to get a simple shirt to hang on a character and could never get it to do anything other than deform badly as it fell through the character.

j3st3r

08-29-2005, 04:31 AM

As a former LW user, I can say that xsi exceeds LW in almost all area. Modelling is very similar, but it has many more tools, and plenty of reference coordinate systems.
Animation is far more fun, and easy to do.
Weighting is work like charm. I had continuous problems with correct displaying of weights (only on frame 0), and the switching back and forward between modeller and layout drive me crazy...
Rendering is an area what is questionable. XSI rendertree is really powerful tool, but one must have to understand MR, to exploit it.

Since I've migrated to XSI i never had a second when I wanted to go back to LW.

mocaw

08-29-2005, 06:18 AM

While I haven't had a chance to check out the cloth in XSI I would definitely say that LightWave's cloth and dynamics are the "bottom of the bucket, in there just so they can say they have them" type of setup. I seriously doubt that the XSI Cloth could be any worse that what is in lightwave. If you check the lightwave message boards, you will see many, many people have trouble getting the cloth to do ANYTHING. I personally spent an entire day of work trying to get a simple shirt to hang on a character and could never get it to do anything other than deform badly as it fell through the character.

I've had good rsults with LW's cloth in 8.X. It takes quite a bit to setup right and to know how to use it. It's also very fast if done correctly- however doing it correctly can sometimes be a pain.

I bought XSI and it is lovely and worth every penny!

I've only been using XSI now for a month, but I'm really enjoying it. It's true that there's a lot more of the renderer's guts looking you in the face in XSI than in LW- but it all has a reason behind it. There are some nice touches too that LW still doesn't have like the ability to cache your render for GI effects not just bake it (which the bake'n options in XSI make most other programs look foolish). Let's not forget a little thing called instancing either. A lot of things which are half baked in LW are fully working and well intergrated in XSI.

The history stack combined with the construction modes is probably THE most powerful feature XSI has over LW I've found yet. For many things there are painful work around for in LW, but the construction modes and history in XSI really change everything you do and how you work. Well really the L(X,Y) and R(X,Y) functions are the thing I'm the most jazzed about...very simple but man what a time saver!

I'm going to stop here, but lets just say that some of the best things about XSI over LW, and many other programs, aren't the kind of things that get put on a feature list but are the the things you're glad to have every day...

Sbowling

08-30-2005, 02:01 AM

I've had good rsults with LW's cloth in 8.X. It takes quite a bit to setup right and to know how to use it. It's also very fast if done correctly- however doing it correctly can sometimes be a pain.

I bought XSI and it is lovely and worth every penny!

I've only been using XSI now for a month, but I'm really enjoying it. It's true that there's a lot more of the renderer's guts looking you in the face in XSI than in LW- but it all has a reason behind it. There are some nice touches too that LW still doesn't have like the ability to cache your render for GI effects not just bake it (which the bake'n options in XSI make most other programs look foolish). Let's not forget a little thing called instancing either. A lot of things which are half baked in LW are fully working and well intergrated in XSI.

The history stack combined with the construction modes is probably THE most powerful feature XSI has over LW I've found yet. For many things there are painful work around for in LW, but the construction modes and history in XSI really change everything you do and how you work. Well really the L(X,Y) and R(X,Y) functions are the thing I'm the most jazzed about...very simple but man what a time saver!

I'm going to stop here, but lets just say that some of the best things about XSI over LW, and many other programs, aren't the kind of things that get put on a feature list but are the the things you're glad to have every day...

It's completely possible that I'm just not getting the Dynamics in LW, but with the ammount of time I've spent trying to get them to work (and failing) compared to the amount of time I've spent getting them to work and do what I want in XSI and C4D ( I was comfortable enough to use them in a job in less than 2 hours for each program) I would have to say it's a lightwave problem. That Being Said, I would say that XSI is what LightWave wants to be when it grows up, but I'm starting to think that Lightwave may never grow up. After messing around with the XSI texture setup I was really impressed. You can even animate turning things on and off which can not be done in lightwave... then again you can do this in C4D also, so it's starting to look like this is more of a lack in lightwave, than something special with other programs. The more I see what's around in other programs, the more I wish I had switched away from lightwave years ago.

T4D

08-30-2005, 06:40 AM

I've been asked to do some rigging and Ca in Messiah and I've been there for aweek aparttime ( I have a LW ca job on ) Messiah is a bloody nice Character animation tool :thumbsup:

Like XSI it makes LW look plan BAD :sad: I'm getting to the stage where I really dislike LW

in Messiah and XSI you can animate everything in real time ( no rendeirng previews)
both have super rigging workflow and much more options in rigging and animation and again SPEED !!! WOW it brings fun Back into animation

one thing i like alittle more in Messiah is the character animation workflow WOW it So well put together ( keys, curves are just under you fingers all the time, a joy to edit and animate it doesn't make XSi look bad just makes XSI look complex

and again LW is just too old Tho XSI has alot more high end rigging tools and options then Messiah ( motion mixer and alot of rigging tools XSI has, Messiah has not got But it's can fake ALOT of stuff really well )

for me XSI for the heavy characters and large CA jobs
and Messiah for the Toons and quick stuff.

With pointoven i can render anything i make in LW, XSI or Messiah in LW, Mentalray or messiah. the messiah render is pretty cool also !!

Negative to Messiah the openGL is buggy ( you have to play with OpenGL settings to get it to work and I have had to reinstall it twice this week ) but still much prefer dealing with that then LW

Anyway Messiah and XSI rocks :buttrock: LW doesn't :sad:
maybe Lw 9 maybe bring it back in the game ....:shrug: but it's got ALOT of catch up to do

mocaw

08-30-2005, 04:32 PM

I'm still getting LW9, but I've gotta tell ya it's mainly to have another renderer and since I own FPrime. Ditto on the point oven thing too BTW. I don't see why users of other programs don't bother to download competitors programs and give them a try. It took me only 1hr with the XSI and Messiah demos to know for sure I wouldn't be using LW for any complex animation again. NewTek has a very loyal user base, so it's hard to get them to even look into another app honestly let alone try it.

Well we'll see how they do in the future- you can't just go by cheap render nodes for ever- and modeler is very fast...but XSI with it's construction history just blows it out of the water when it comes time to do complex things (well things that are complex by LW standards anyway).

I still can't believe that LW doesn't have instances too- and even more how few users aren't complaining about it. Talk about speeding up renders! Then again the average LW user isn't doing a lot of animation, and for many print jobs you don't need good CA or things like instances...still though...

shadowfork

08-30-2005, 04:44 PM

SevenString

08-30-2005, 05:25 PM

I'm just a single "point sample" here, so take this with a grain of salt. Lightwave and M:S are both fine programs. However, I sold both a little over a year ago and switched to XSI. I was looking for more of a "one-stop-shop" application that did most things well, and truly excelled at character animation. XSI seemed like the right choice, and at the new $495 price, it didn't take a lot of agonizing to make the decision.

Since then, I have been very happy with that decision, and have REALLY enjoyed the logical, integrated way that XSI works. However, bear in mind that 3D software is a very personal thing, and although XSI fits my needs quite well, others' mileage may vary. ;)

shadowfork

08-30-2005, 06:00 PM

I got a few more days left before the XSI demo ends. Have to make a decision soon hehehe.

$495 is such a tempting price.

But then again, looking at Lightwave's ScreamerNet keeps pulling me back. Both programs (XSI and Lwave) don't have Hair dynamics (Sasquatch lite is a joke). But then again Lightwave has Rigid Body Dynamics.

XSI's directX exporter makes my right handed models come out a lefty (somehow it exports in the -X scale - weird). Cloth dynamics on XSI on the other hand is rock solid than LWave's (though its not the Syflex one, it works pretty damn well for me).

XSI has a sweet character animation system. Beats LW any day. But with pmG there's hope.

Aaarrrgggghhhh!!! Help!

Thanks for your thoughts SevenString.

I'll follow Yoda's words for now: "Meditate on this, I will"

SevenString

08-30-2005, 06:39 PM

Well, shadowfork, let me add to the confusion some more by playing "Devil's Advocate".

"Whoa, dude! Like, you're TOTALLY my dad, AND the Devil!" :twisted:

Anyway, since your LW work is really good, this could be a case of, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Messiah could very well be the right choice for you, considering the state of your LW chops.

Good luck, and "choose wisely"!

shadowfork

08-30-2005, 07:09 PM

Good luck, and "choose wisely"!

I was afraid you'll say that hehehehe.

But man, look at that GATOR thingy --- it really makes it hard to decide.

Thanks for the compliments Leslie. Any way I can see your work by the way? I visited your site but I cant see a link of your CG work. The buy button is dead link by the way (or it could be a firefox bug).

Cheers.

SevenString

08-30-2005, 07:26 PM

I think the only thing that I have online is this still of a crappy old animation master model that I did. This is from several years ago, so be kind. :D

http://www.mimichen.com/images/mcCGmimi1.gif

I don't have any of my LW or XSI work up. I suppose I should get around to it at some point. :D I've been working on a personal "labor of love" CG project for a while, and I guess it would be good to show some WIPs.

Unfortunately, the other work that I'm doing at my day gig can't be shown yet for legal reasons. Someday soon, though. :D

And sorry about the link. I need to get around to changing that. My US distributor is in the process of going out of business as a distributor, so the web page for buying my CD no longer exists on their site.

shadowfork

08-30-2005, 07:42 PM

Not bad man. I've had it with Hash and now moving on to more stable apps.

I hope to see more of your work in the future. Especially your XSI and Lightwave ones.

How long was the transition from LW to XSI for you?

mocaw

08-30-2005, 08:24 PM

Go with XSI and point oven! Render issues for the most part are then solved. Plus in v5 you could have two dual core processors and FND will use all cores! I love PMG...but who knows where they're going. Softimage has been around for a while- and you'll be able to leverage the nice things about LW and XSI together to pump out some good stuff.

Have you downloaded the XSI demo? Just use the construction modes to make something which you animate around a curv deformer using one window as the result and the other as a model construction mode and you'll be freaked out about how powerfull XSI is. You aren't going to be able to do things like that in PM or LW anytime soon!

shadowfork

08-30-2005, 10:27 PM

Hmmm.. I think I'll go with XSI.

How is the Satellite thing and ScreamerNet compared?

T4D

08-30-2005, 11:19 PM

Decisions ... decisions... decisions...

T4D, I'm torn between buying pmG or XSI. You seem to have more experience in CA and we both have LW backgrounds. I love LW's renderer although its not as great as MRay. I invested a lot of time with Lightwave though (like 5 years already).

Which one would you recommend?

if really depends on what you do in 3D ?:shrug:

XSi is alot bigger Program much more powerful too, But there's alot more to learn
I have told people NOT to buy XSI cause there is a steep learning curve. Mainly cause I have given them months of support in LW ( rigging and Animation ) and I could see they would just go weak at the knees with XSI.:eek:

MEssiah has the same basic 3D method as LIghtwave
Lightwave always was a fake it type app and so is Messiah But messiah is alot more open and easier and flexable so if you like how you faked stuff in LW you 'll love the Messiah even more :love:

BUT XSI you really do create the simulations and effects there's no need to fake it as much Cause you have all the tools there, But you have to have your head and brain turned on sometimes but if you do,.. ? you will get better results.:thumbsup:

I only got Messiah due to client work I love my XSI but i do see messiah being very handy too and simple fun,...:bounce: where XSI is,.. let's do the job properly:D

Sbowling

08-31-2005, 02:24 AM

I would probably recommend XSI over LightWave or Messiah. I have completely lost faith in Netek ever getting lightwave to be a real competitor in 3d. They seem to be happy just saying they have this or that feature, but they don't seem interested in really integrating the features or making them really work well with the other features. Basically, LW 9 is nothing more than Newtek trying to play catch-up to all the other 3d programs out there. For me it's a little too little a little too late. Messiah has some good stuff in it, but it never felt complete to me. It has no modelign tools and they are still missing features that they said would be in it when I bought the thing. While the character animation tools are great, I don't really like the interface layout that much and the partivles and dynamics weren't that great last time I tired them.

XSI I just started messing around with last weekend and I've pretty much decided that this is what I NEED to do the kind of work I do. It's character setup is easy, weight mapping is great, it has specialized character options, such as spines, hips, etc. Prebuilt rigs, all the modeling tools are available right there when you are animating, so I can move my character into allthe odd angle I need to set up weight maps (coming from lightwave this is really amazing the first time you see it in action), then just hit a button to get it back into it's default position. Parenting does not require you to drag your object through a giant list of objects to parent, you just select the parent object, hit parent and then click on the child object (I may have this backwards). The rendering seems pretty quick, the surface editor is pretty complex, but I've started to get the hang of it by just messing around with it and reading these boards. For me the character stuff was the big thing, because it really feels like character animation was part of the design of this program, not just something that was added on as an afterthough like in lightwave. Best part is that my boss said that if I really feel the need for the 6k versionafter using foundation for a while he will pay for it! :eek: It must be nice to be able to be so casual about dropping $6k on something like this. :)

leigh

08-31-2005, 03:37 AM

XSI kicks LightWave's ass in every sense of the word.

:D

T4D

08-31-2005, 03:46 AM

XSI kicks LightWave's ass in every sense of the word.

:D

Rock On Leigh !! :buttrock: Clear straight to the point !! lol :D

shadowfork

08-31-2005, 03:50 AM

XSI kicks LightWave's ass in every sense of the word.

:D

Huh? What word?

To be fair, Lightwave is not that bad of a software. Its just out dated but in the hand of a good artist you can still produce great results.

But yeah, XSI has tons of features and the CA system is sweet. But these features are useless if your end product is a crappy animation.

Still, I think I'll go with XSI. But I will still give respect that Lightwave deserves. It wasn't too long ago when Lightwave was the weapon of choice of many studios before Avid and Alias reduced their price. It was more like the Max vs Lightwave days.

Hats off to the newtek guys but I'll move on to XSI.

leigh

08-31-2005, 03:56 AM

Huh? What word?

Kick.

(btw I have very extensive experience using LW so that wasn't just an idle comment)

T4D

08-31-2005, 04:11 AM

Huh? What word?

To be fair, Lightwave is not that bad of a software. Its just out dated but in the hand of a good artist you can still produce great results.

that's abit like saying Dpaint should be respected because many a great peice of art was created in it ( yes true ) BUT

Does it mean you should still uses it today instead of Photoshop CS2 or Painter IX ?

if a good artist can create good art in anything ,
it's still a must that the artist has the best tools for the job isn't it ?
Specially if your working on $$ work ?

once you see XSI and work with it for awhile you WILL look at LW total differently :D

shadowfork

08-31-2005, 05:08 AM

that's abit like saying Dpaint should be respected because many a great peice of art was created in it ( yes true ) BUT

Does it mean you should still uses it today instead of Photoshop CS2 or Painter IX ?

if a good artist can create good art in anything ,
it's still a must that the artist has the best tools for the job isn't it ?

Thanks for clarifying that statement Leigh. Please excuse my lack of english comprehension for I am not a natural born english speaking person =)

T4D, my point is that Lightwave has brought you wherever you are right now, it has brought me wherever I am right now with clients too.

I know you have been vocal with your frustrations with lightwave and I respect your opinion too. But I know my roots. I know where I came from.

I believe most of us came from other package before XSI.

If you can't respect your old package for bringing you to the 3D world, that's fine. I don't have a problem with that.

And yes, I think DPaint still deserve respect. People put hard work on that code. Would you feel good if people disrespect your product/work?

--- and if people are still comfortable using Dpaint over Pshop, let them be.

Be happy :) Drink less coffee :)

XSI rules! :buttrock:

T4D

08-31-2005, 06:05 AM

T4D, my point is that Lightwave has brought you wherever you are right now, it has brought me wherever I am right now with clients too.

I know you have been vocal with your frustrations with lightwave and I respect your opinion too. But I know my roots. I know where I came from.

I believe most of us came from other package before XSI.

all totally true and agree all the way :thumbsup:

I did learn 3D with LW they were happy times But I just feel LW is too far behide Now to really count as much, it WAS a great tool, But pages and pages can be written on Why XSI or even messiah is better. But defending LW in a XSI forum,.... your really are asking for trouble Too many have crossed over now and the LW fanboys live in the Lightwave forum :D.

shadowfork

08-31-2005, 06:26 AM

I'm not defending Lightwave or anything. Don't get me wrong. The reason I got into this thread because of the dilemma of using Messiah and XSI. The title does say "LW'ers that use XSI and/or Messiah want to share an opinion".

My thoughts are clear now and I'm crossing over too :)
Avid just got another user.

I can't wait when XSI v5 for Foundation is available for ships!!! :bounce:

mocaw

08-31-2005, 06:37 AM

XSI kicks LightWave's ass in every sense of the word.

:D

So when do we get a book on texture'n in XSI?

leigh

08-31-2005, 06:54 AM

So when do we get a book on texture'n in XSI?

Next year :)

Cman

08-31-2005, 07:54 PM

Next year :)

Looking forward to it!

mocaw

08-31-2005, 09:51 PM

Next year :)

Good, because I blame you for all my nights lost to playing with the render tree!

Sbowling

09-01-2005, 07:30 AM

So when do we get a book on texture'n in XSI?

http://www.3dtutorial.com/xsi.php?detail=29

I don't have this specific tutorial yet (but will soon), but the other two I have are great (one is 16 hours, so I haven't completely watched it yet). These vieos will probably get you up to speed much quicker than reading a book. I found that by just watching the first character animation tutorial I learned enough to be able to feel comfortable in XSI and setup a basic rig without having to go back into the video. You can't beat the price for the quality of these videos.

leigh

09-01-2005, 08:12 AM

Good, because I blame you for all my nights lost to playing with the render tree!

Well, when you have questions, you should post them here in the XSI forum! ;)

Mike Pauza

09-01-2005, 01:55 PM

Next year :)

Awesome Leigh!!!

Is this another Wordware book? Wes is a good guy.
Glad to see you've switched. I'm about too as well because XSI's dynamics kicks.... :)

-Mike Pauza

leigh

09-01-2005, 06:46 PM

It is with Wordware, but not with Wes. XSI rules :)

yog

09-01-2005, 07:34 PM

It is with Wordware, but not with Wes. XSI rules :)Need an un-biased proof reader ? ;):D

fletchman

09-01-2005, 07:48 PM

It is with Wordware, but not with Wes. XSI rules :)

Now that is a book I am looking forward to. I am still trying to get my head around the render tree. :scream:

mocaw

09-02-2005, 05:41 AM

Well, when you have questions, you should post them here in the XSI forum! ;)

I've lost sleep having fun- not frustration!:)

Mike Pauza

09-02-2005, 01:49 PM

It is with Wordware, but not with Wes. XSI rules :)

Great Leigh. Let us know when it's out. -Mike

Leonardo Vega

09-02-2005, 03:00 PM

I love both XSI and Messiah... here's my impression. I feel XSI is more stable. But I like how quick you can rig in Messiah. In Messiah, you add bones and go to animate and things deform pretty good. Just yesterday I boned a head/neck model in Messiah and I was impressed, no tweaking or wieghts. Now I got the same head, took it to XSI, added a neck, head, and jaw bones, clicked on the model, hit set envelope, did a marquee selection on all the bones, and when I moved the head, it would get distorted :(

But thinking back... I wonder if I goofed when I selected all the bones because it included the roots and effectors... maybe that made it go screwy?

The nice thing about Point Oven is that you can use just about anything as long as only you (or your team) are dealing with the project.

[EDIT: Can CGS member still get XSI for $400?]

- Leo

mocaw

12-13-2005, 06:56 PM

Well selecting everything but your envelope group can cause problems, but don't forget that there are two modes of auto envolope- one is distance based and one is raycast normals based (If I remember corectly). Still I'd say that Messiah is one of the most straight forward to get a rig enveloped. Have you used the bi-ped Guid in XSI though (pending you have 5 or 4.2 beyond FND)? That's half the rigging fun in XSI!

Still though- Messiah is very impressive- and soooo easy.

I love both XSI and Messiah... here's my impression. I feel XSI is more stable. But I like how quick you can rig in Messiah. In Messiah, you add bones and go to animate and things deform pretty good. Just yesterday I boned a head/neck model in Messiah and I was impressed, no tweaking or wieghts. Now I got the same head, took it to XSI, added a neck, head, and jaw bones, clicked on the model, hit set envelope, did a marquee selection on all the bones, and when I moved the head, it would get distorted :(

But thinking back... I wonder if I goofed when I selected all the bones because it included the roots and effectors... maybe that made it go screwy?

The nice thing about Point Oven is that you can use just about anything as long as only you (or your team) are dealing with the project.

[EDIT: Can CGS member still get XSI for $400?]

- Leo

Soeren Nielsen

12-13-2005, 11:28 PM

Used to be one of those "hardcore" lightwavers myself, and looking back at that, I cant help but laughing a bit (at myself).
I remember jumping straight into XSI, just thinking I would take it for a spin and see if it was any good. But actually I ended up only opening LW one more time, to export some obj's. Havent used it since, except when im force to at work.
Now my main software at home, and at work is definately XSI, no doubt about that. What I think makes XSI so great is.

Rigging is a breeze in XSI. Weighting takes no time with the split construction modes and its blazing fast to paint your weights, no more sluggish updates.
Even using a cage deformer as a driving object for a high res object is fast, and can make your life easier. If you go this way, you can make one rig and use the deformer for characters of similar statue, so you wont have to start from scratch, and you wont have to go into building a complete shadow rig setup.
And IK/FK blending embedded into the chains is priceless.

Shading in the rendertree is heavy at first, but most of the time you wont actually need to go that deep into it, you can get away with basics. Still there are some gripes with how bump mapping, normal mapping and displacement mapping works in XSI, but this is more of a MR issue. Not saying it doesnt work, but it can be frustrating at times.
Overrides is also a thing that will save you ALOT of time, imagine having to change a single node inside 300 materials doing this manually would be a nightmare, but with overrides you can do this really fast. Overrides might seem like a small thing in the start, but its definately one of those things that you will end up loving.

Animation I tend to stay as far away from animation as I possibly can, I couldnt make a ball bounce on a good day, so my knowledge is limited there, however from what I have seen in presentations etc. it looks solid.

Rendering in XSI is also one of the heavier things, learning to optimize your BSP tree etc can take some time, but if you get your hands on the XSI production DVD's you will get a good explanation of it and will be able to get some quick good looking renders out fast.
Renderpasses are easy to set up, and again overrides come in here.
Lets say you want to change half your objects shaders in a pass. You just create a new partition (a group pretty much) put the objects you want to have changed into that partition, and apply an override to the partition.

I could probably keep going for a long time here, but to just conclude it here, XSI is a very good and very versatile application. More and more companies are using it so landing a job with it is not as hard as it used to be.

Ok enough blabbering :)

Cheers
Soeren

T4D

12-14-2005, 12:01 AM

Used to be one of those "hardcore" lightwavers myself, and looking back at that, I cant help but laughing a bit (at myself)

I feel the same way At one point Lightwave was just the best, I developed plugins for it
But After spending afew good months in XSI I can only laugh at myself for having that opinion, Sure lightwave is a great package to learn on and render with but that's it

Lightwave needs and is supported by it's third party developers ( Worley, Happy digital etc )
the XSI team simply don't need that support they good enough & smart enough to developer they own tools that fully connect to the package OR BUY or uses Free PD Code and bring them in Right and connect them up right, there's a world of differents :bowdown:

I just love it over here ( but the XSI commuity isn't as free with info and chat as the OLD lightwave people But I think as more switch that will change :buttrock: )

WillBellJr

12-14-2005, 02:48 PM

Well being a tad late in this conversation, glad to see you decided on XSI.

Being a LW'er myself, XSI is certainly a great app to move over to from LW.

I got burned by Messiah:Animate so I'll never give a positive endorsement for that development house - as already mentioned, things are promised that never seem to make it (or work properly) in their package(s) so caveat emptor when dealing with them folks - it's always a work in progress, never a finished product (and I mean finished as far as features working as stated!)

If you're talking about working on a time critical project with XSI being a new package, that may not be wise because as mentioned, XSI has a medium to heavy learning curve - especially with texturing (LW is a dream when it comes to texturing compared to XSI:FND - now with ESS or ADV, maybe it's easier or as easy as LW, I don't know.)

I also tend to feel that character boning in XSI isn't as easy as in LW or other packages - I've never had to work with weights in LW all that much, in XSI, you can't simply bone a character and get decent deformation (without cross talk between bones etc.,) without a good amount of weighting work...

Definitely spend money on good tutorial discs they'll get you up to speed way faster than reading the manual and all the PDFs.

Enjoy!

-Will

T4D

12-14-2005, 03:08 PM

I also tend to feel that character boning in XSI isn't as easy as in LW or other packages - I've never had to work with weights in LW all that much, in XSI, you can't simply bone a character and get decent deformation (without cross talk between bones etc.,) without a good amount of weighting work...

yeah agree Lw is simpler and easier when it comes to Bone weights
XSI "sometimes" needs more work
( I personally like XSI weight system But still agree LW is easier )
But what about Lw's IK, Spline IK, IK Blending, IK Chain Controls, expressions, Motion plugins, Contrains, Joint morphs, motion effector stacking ( before or after IK ),
& Generial Rig speed ??
& when you have all this on one rig having it all work together without breakages and and then building Good Character animation workflow ??

Bone weight is a very small part of the rigging process
LW is missing a huge amount of rigging and CA animation Options & workflow
the deeper I get into XSI the more I see this

Sure I'll give it to LW for having a simpler Bone weight system
But the rest is so far behide it's alittle sad :hmm:

I still used LW so I want LW 9 to be better ..... :cry:

mocaw

12-14-2005, 07:16 PM

I don't know, I think you can play "dumb" in XSI and get the same if not better results than LW. The only reason LW is simpler is because it's about five to six years old when it comes to character animation! Besides, getting the bones in the right place has never been the taxing or problematic part for me (esp. with bi-ped rig guides now in v5) but animating the rig and controlling its deformation- that's where XSI has it in spades. Could Softimage make it any easier? I'm sure they will, but for now it's the best I've used and seen.

WillBellJr

12-14-2005, 08:09 PM

But what about Lw's IK, Spline IK, IK Blending, IK Chain Controls, expressions, Motion plugins, Contrains, Joint morphs, motion effector stacking ( before or after IK ),
& Generial Rig speed ??
& when you have all this on one rig having it all work together without breakages and and then building Good Character animation workflow ??

Bone weight is a very small part of the rigging process
LW is missing a huge amount of rigging and CA animation Options & workflow
the deeper I get into XSI the more I see this

Sure I'll give it to LW for having a simpler Bone weight system
But the rest is so far behide it's alittle sad :hmm:

I still used LW so I want LW 9 to be better ..... :cry:

What's up Thomas, oh yes, I agree here for sure - LW, IMO, has always needed some additional help when it comes to character work - I went the Maestro route instead of Messiah but it's quite obvious that XSI is way ahead in a LOT of stuff when you look at the final workflows side-by-side...

Being that I own G2 and Sasquatch, I'm also sorta tied to LW for now - I just WISH XSI:FND had a basic hair system - sometimes I feel like asking Worley to develop stuff for XSI - that'd be cool too but somehow I don't think Avid would let that happen??

I just can't see hair and crowds costing $5000 - $6500 depending on where you bought in!

-Will

ThE_JacO

12-14-2005, 10:33 PM

Being that I own G2 and Sasquatch, I'm also sorta tied to LW for now - I just WISH XSI:FND had a basic hair system - sometimes I feel like asking Worley to develop stuff for XSI - that'd be cool too but somehow I don't think Avid would let that happen??

Avid wouldn't care much, and Soft would probably support him, they sure COULD NOT prevent it from happening if it was in the intentions of the developer.
People seem to have some weird ideas about plugin developement politics :)

[/quote]
I just can't see hair and crowds costing $5000 - $6500 depending on where you bought in!
[/QUOTE]

hair, crowds, additional mray satellites and syflex.
syflex alone is a couple grands normally, crowd systems (of which there's only two serious ones out there commercially) are usually A LOT more then 3 grands.

But I know what you mean, to some people that is irrelevant, and all they'd want is the hair system.

dwigfor

12-14-2005, 11:11 PM

I just can't see hair and crowds costing $5000 - $6500 depending on where you bought in!

-Will

Didn't Behavior used to cost over $10k before it was added to XSI:Adv?

T4D

12-15-2005, 01:08 AM

What's up Thomas, oh yes, I agree here for sure - LW, IMO, has always needed some additional help when it comes to character work - I went the Maestro route instead of Messiah but it's quite obvious that XSI is way ahead in a LOT of stuff when you look at the final workflows side-by-side...

Being that I own G2 and Sasquatch, I'm also sorta tied to LW for now - I just WISH XSI:FND had a basic hair system - sometimes I feel like asking Worley to develop stuff for XSI - that'd be cool too but somehow I don't think Avid would let that happen??

I just can't see hair and crowds costing $5000 - $6500 depending on where you bought in!

-Will

WillBellJr don't take my comment in attack you in anyway I just have a different opinion I didn't mean anything personal with anything i said OK :beer:

the hair System is a big negative toward XSI for me too
I just got a quote to upgrade to advance and its $7000 Aus !! and all i want is hair :surprised
I have G2 etc and will be using Sas Full for the job next year doing as much as i can in XSI But will be rendering in LW due to costs

I'm not surface guru but XSi has all that G2 has But G2 has alot nicer interface there so XSI isn't prefect But it has all the power just need to learnt to uses it ( myself included :blush:)

as for Avid and a third party Hair plugins They are alot more helpfull then Newtek for sure
I'm sure Worley would be very welcome and get huge amount of support
I read mark ( pointoven ) was very happy with the way Avid/Softimage Helped him

the thing XSI do differently to Newtek is they do buy software and pull it into the package if the users need it seeing shave and hair cut is all ready already there
I don't see Avid buying it, But they is a market for Us cheapO XSI users for Sas in XSI for sure ;)

mocaw

12-15-2005, 02:52 AM

Am I wrong or is there a lot more to the Ess and Adv. packages that FND lacks...like the compositor etc. So lets see...compositor, crowds, sysflex, hardbody dynamics, hair/fur (with some very beefed up intergration if you ask me), and I'm sure a lot of other things I'm leaving out (like the poly reduction tools etc.). But yes, if you just want hair it's overkill. If you're looking for an almost all in one solution I think it fits the bill.

Anti-Distinctlyminty

12-15-2005, 03:58 PM

Hello guys and gals,
First of all, sorry if this should be a new thread - I dont want to hijack this one, but this thread seems to be attracting the people who's opinions I need. I've managed to get a great deal of good information from this thread so far, but there are a few specifics I'd like to know about.
I've been lurking on this forum for a while. I've been using LW for about a year now & have heard good things abouts xsi...

1. But before that, one thing has confused me and that's the pricing. I've seen so many different prices on different packages that I dont even know which version is the most appropriate, and without really knowing what I'm going to need to be doing in the future it's difficult to tell which features I need. Are the extra features worth the several thousand pounds that they cost? Thats one of the things I like about LW is that it works and performs alot of functions out of the box. How well it performs these functions is another matter.

2. Shading & texturing - With only experience in LW I have no idea how limited it is. Though I have been pulling my hair out recently trying to create a specific surface. It appears that xsi's render tree is complex, which = powerful usually. Is xsi's shading/surfacing fully integrated and easy to use relative to its capabilities?
I've got G2 for LW, but it feels kinda messy to me & with its features not being integrated into the core program, it just leaves a bti of a sour taste for some reason. Are advanced featuers such as sss integrated also (in the lower cost packages)?

3. Does xsi have an integrated particle and hypervoxel (volumetrics) system? How about teh hard & soft dynamics system? I saw a demo that used the novodex engine and it was formidable. I tried to make a collapsing brick wall in LW. 'Calculate button' = program death. LW's hard body dynamics just seem a bit crap really. I can't use them for all but the simplest things due to interpenetration and program freeze.

4. Again, being a LW user will mean that I'm not used to a non-integrated renderer. Does this cause major headaches for people or is it relatively simple? How much more will a decent renderer cost? What are speed comparisons with Worleys FPrime for radiosity? (i.e. is it useable)

I'm grateful for any replies :)
I do still feel oddly loyal to Newtek. I have no idea why. Maybe it's because I'm British & we always root for the underdog

Just one more thing - if anyone replies to any of my questions I'd like to point out that if I bought xsi, it would be done with my own money & I'm not rich. I would have to save and cannot afford to buy additional programs, masses of plugins, etc, just for the odd feature (as another poster said about a hair solution costing thousands)

SheepFactory

12-15-2005, 04:22 PM

Hi ,

1) Yes the extra features are worth the extra thousands of bucks. The $500 foundation version is more then capable for freelancers and hobbyists. If you are a modeler\character animator , its all you need.

2) of course its fully integrated , and easy to use assuming you put the time in to learning what the nodes do.

3)XSI particles suck. and the RBD's are only in essential and advanced versions. If particle fx is what you want to do in the future , look somewhere else.

4) eh? mr is fully integrated in XSI where did you hear its not integrated? there are no other renderers available for it at the moment , other then the xsi to renderman exporter which is in beta. In any case mr is more then capable of creating amazing scenes.

Dl the demo , and please read the info on the softimage website , all your questions were already answered there.

Anti-Distinctlyminty

12-15-2005, 04:43 PM

Thanks for the reply :)

4) eh? mr is fully integrated in XSI where did you hear its not integrated? there are no other renderers available for it at the moment , other then the xsi to renderman exporter which is in beta. In any case mr is more then capable of creating amazing scenes.

One of the things NT marketing go on about is the fact that it has a great (albeit damn slow) renderer build in. They imply that their competitors do not.

Dl the demo , and please read the info on the softimage website , all your questions were already answered there.

I apologise, but there is method in my irritating newbie ways; when having the prospect of spending my own money, I really prefer to get the balanced view of an actual user of the product as opposed to marketing on the website. For example, both LW and XSI have hard body dynamics, but from the demo video I stumbled upon, XSI's appear far more powerful and stable. I do appriciate the response though.

daviddrbal

12-15-2005, 05:21 PM

More then other opinions is important your:)

Learn new software will cost you some bucks and time ... are u ready for ?
I believe all softwares can give you quiet same output. The way how you get there is a bit different.

If you talking that something doesnt work - OK, mostly its your fault. Try demo and you will see .. then count what all you will need spend for.

Need hair = almost 7000 dolars for XSI
Need hard body dynamics = 2000 dolars for XSI
Need more comps to render = buy new licences of MR
(HyperVoxel is not in XSI)

Need hair for LW = 500 dolars for Worley Sasquatch
Need hard body dynamics = +0 dolars
Need more comps to render = +0 dolars
Need have strong character animation tool as XSI = 260 dolars for Messiah Animate

OK LightWave won in prize for sure .) doesnt mean you get more or less.
The important thing is how you are able handle your spend to get money back, and how well you will feel in other package.

solarflare

12-15-2005, 06:02 PM

ThE_JacO

12-15-2005, 10:15 PM

With regards to the built-in renderer for Lightwave, they are probably right that it is one of the best. I have heard a lot of good things about it, but most companies these days don't really care about a built-in renderer. Instead, they incorporate a 3rd party renderer (mental ray for XSI, Maya, and 3ds Max) into their product. In the cases of 3ds Max and Maya, they basically have to translate everything so that mental ray can render their product in a manner that "feels" built in. In the case of XSI, I believe it was developed specifically to talk directly to the mental ray renderer, making it feel much more "built in" than the other renderers (I don't know the history of how XSI came about though).

So basically, it is true that the XSI renderer is not "built in", but its not something you will notice at all, or that restricts the program in any way.

sorry, but built-in means nothing.

MRay is -not- developed in house by softimage, true

MRay is however integrated in XSI just as well as LW's engine is in LW, arguably better.

integration is defined by the amount of scene data sharing (near 0 for maya and max, 99% for xsi) and by the presentation of its functions (being the only commercial one for XSI the presentation is perfect, as it's the way XSI has always presented its rendering options and operations).

some other points are also itchy, like "2000$ for RBDs" like if you needed to add 2k to foundation rather then replacing the entry point price (and getting a sleeve of features in the process)... but I'll avoid commenting.
good luck living without GATOR though ;)

onikaze

12-16-2005, 12:52 AM

sorry for the post , will check tommorow at work

T4D

12-16-2005, 01:16 AM

Need hair = almost 7000 dolars for XSI
Need hard body dynamics = 2000 dolars for XSI
Need more comps to render = buy new licences of MR
(HyperVoxel is not in XSI)

Need hair for LW = 500 dolars for Worley Sasquatch
Need hard body dynamics = +0 dolars
Need more comps to render = +0 dolars
Need have strong character animation tool as XSI = 260 dolars for Messiah Animate

OK LightWave won in prize for sure .) doesnt mean you get more or less.
The important thing is how you are able handle your spend to get money back, and how well you will feel in other package.

Just having abit funny dreamtalks ;)

Hair is the only thing your missing in XSI ess
Workflow and Hundreds of other things make XSI a clear winner
I have Messiah AND Have used LW for 6 - 7 years

Messiah is what LW character animation and rigging should be ( LW CA is still :sad: )

XSI is what a 3D program should be :p

Sbowling

12-16-2005, 04:10 AM

>>dreamtalks Wrote:More then other opinions is important your:)

>>Learn new software will cost you some bucks and time ... are u ready for ?
>>I believe all softwares can give you quiet same output. The way how you get there is a >>bit different.

Learning XSI to get out of LightWave was time and money well spent.

>>If you talking that something doesnt work - OK, mostly its your fault. Try demo and you >>will see .. then count what all you will need spend for.

>>Need hair = almost 7000 dolars for XSI

You not only get hair, but crowd simulation, more render liscences, etc. Also, the hair in XSI kicks the snot out of the hair in LightWave (crippled demo or the full version that you have to pay for).

>>Need hard body dynamics = 2000 dolars for XSI

You also get several other features including an integrated compositing tool, more render lisceneces, and much much more. Also, the XSI rigid body dynamics (not to mention the soft and cloth dynamics that come with Foundation) kick the snot out of the dynamics in LightWave. Most of the dynamics in lightwave are barely functional andyou will most likely spend more time trying to get them to work than using workarounds.

>> Need more comps to render = buy new licences of MR

That's what usually happens with professional quality renderers. LightWave's renderer can't compete with MR, regardless of what the lightwave fanboys say.

>>(HyperVoxel is not in XSI)

Have you ever tried to render a full screen explosion using Hypervoxels? It can tak hours a frame. I hope you have a _lot_ of computers all networked together.

>>Need hair for LW = 500 dolars for Worley Sasquatch

Inferior.

>>Need hard body dynamics = +0 dolars

Very Inferior. Very Slow.

>>Need more comps to render = +0 dolars

As long as you already have the computers. :)

>Need have strong character animation tool as XSI = 260 dolars for Messiah Animate

Sorry, messiah can not compete with XSI for character animation. In fact, the guys at messiah seem to have a serious problem in getting the the program to work right. Several of the features that are on the list of features (when I bough it) are not in messiah (but will be "soon"). I get the impression that this program is developed by the programmers in their spare time, not the feeling of a company that is spending all it's trying to develope a solid, stable program. I would guess that 99% of messiah users are lightwave users, because I don't think people from other packages would put up with a company run like this.

>>OK LightWave won in prize for sure

If lightwave was that great I would still be using it. LightWave also loses to XSI in numerous other areas, including interface, flexibility, ease of use, gatting things done fast without having to deal with numerous workarounds, etc.

>>doesnt mean you get more or less.

With lightwave you get a lot less. I've been using Foundation and it works so much better than LightWave for everything I need. LightWave is seriously outdated and it is seriously unstable. BTW, Softimage doesn't charge you an extra $100 for a printed manual. They also have some very good and in depth tutorials and the manual if pretty decent. The manuals and tutorial that come with lightwave just plain suck. I don't think they've had a decent manual since 5.0

>>The important thing is how you are able handle your spend to get money back, and how >>well you will feel in other package.[/QUOTE]

Um, what?

Sbowling

12-16-2005, 04:48 AM

Hi ,

<munch>

3)XSI particles suck. and the RBD's are only in essential and advanced versions. If particle fx is what you want to do in the future , look somewhere else.

Remember, he's comparing XSI to LightWave, not Max or something like that, so I would say the particles in XSI are arguably better than the particles in LW. You can definitely get them to do everything that the LightWave Particles can do and some things they can't. Ever tried to fill a container with lightwave particles? You can't. In XSI it's simple. Using the different methods in XSI you sould be able to do 99% of the things you can do with LightWave's Hypervoxles and it will render faster.

There a re a lot of things in XSI that seem very intimidating, but after you understand them you will wonder how you ever lived without them.

SheepFactory

12-16-2005, 04:58 AM

I am just saying that particle fx is not what xsi is known for and I dont think anybody will argue with me on that. if particle fx is the future career someone wants I would not recommend them xsi. Yes i know you can achieve all kinds of great effects in it but the thing is old and the workflow is like pulling nails.

On the bright side , it should be fixed soon :)

mocaw

12-16-2005, 06:10 AM

Ever tried to fill a container with lightwave particles? You can't.

OK, just to set the record straight- you can do this in LW- in fact it's been a demo scene since I think 6.5. I've got a stomach filling with particals while it's controled and deformed by four morphs in one project. The simulation runs in almost real time (though I took a lot of the turbulance out of the simulation aka drag). But yes, much like LW cloth dynamics it take some seriouse time to get aquanted with how the tools work, not so much because the can't do something, but more because the setting make almost no sense, or little sense when compared to other parts of the program. It's things like this that make the term "power" suggestive. If I can't flip the switch, or it always blows a fuse, then how powerful is it? What XSI has it has tightly intergrated- and coming from LW and MAX that is powerful!

While some people think particals in XSI suck, I personally love them since I can actully USE them quickly and get fast renders that the client will take. In LW I can get great effects...but it's time to send it off to the farm when using HV (though I have yet to use them with Fprime). Noone ever said that MAX, XSI, or LW were replacments for Houdini when it comes to inenstive partical effects.

mocaw

12-16-2005, 06:14 AM

...On the bright side , it should be fixed soon :)

Anything you care to share? Will we see this as in 5.x soon or 6.x soon or is it third party?

mlmiller1983

12-16-2005, 06:16 AM

I'm not ditching Lightwave anytime soon but I see no reason Not to get XSI. Its character animation tools are superb and the one of the best out there as well as the new Rigid Body Dynamics software, and lets not forget GATOR(Godsend in Character Animation). What does suck about XSI is that you have to pay $7000 to get Hair where as C4D, LW, and Maya have excellent and not expensive hair solutions but thats where Point Oven comes in. Each piece of software has its strengths and weaknesses but I believe they can all play nice together. Just my 2 cents

yog

12-16-2005, 11:00 AM

Remember, he's comparing XSI to LightWave, not Max or something like that, As Sbowling says, it's a matter of perspective. Whilst XSI's particles might not be up to the standard of MAX's Particle Flow (extremely nice), or Maya's in-built particles, they compare favourably with LW's particles. I've not found much that LW's particles can do that XSI's particles can't, but a few things that XSI's particles can do more than LW's (deform particles by latice or curve, etc).

That said, I think LW's hypervoxel technology is better than most (with the possible exception of Maya's, which I'm not really experienced with).

daviddrbal

12-16-2005, 12:08 PM

j3st3r

12-16-2005, 12:21 PM

Hi,

I came from LW background, and I'm very well satisfied that I left LW for XSI. It is possible, that LW changed a lot from version 8, it is possible that it's very cool, but it is very outdated. I'm using Foundation and Advanced of XSI as well, and I think it's far superior product to LW. But I know many artists who are very talented artists, but they can't do anything in XSI. That's normal.

I don't think it's worthy to debate on this. But for productivity, to me, XSI is far more productive, just for the excellent viewport capabilities, for the capability of handling millions of poligons without problems, and the animation features, etc. As I said, it is possible that LW changed a lot, but I still thinks, that XSI is a next generation 3D application, while LW is a oldtimer with features of current generation.

Moreover for 495USD, it's a really strong pack. Check out what you get for 1995 USD, and check out what is in the 6995 USD pack. For XSI I do not need to much plugin, that was not the case with LW. I'm sure LW changed a lot. For those users, who are satisfied with LW, it's the perfect, and it is pointless to convinve them.

I changed, when they were late with v8, and when 8 was out it was not what I expected.

yog

12-16-2005, 12:30 PM

To sum up :

As you can see from this thread, there are a LOT of ex-LW's now using XSI.
I can't think of a single user who moved onto LW after dropping XSI.

Now that has to mean something :shrug:

Anti-Distinctlyminty

12-16-2005, 12:50 PM

TD4: Quote "XSI is what a 3D program should be". This is the general impression that I seem to be getting.

Sbowling: I've always been pleased with LW renderer, but have not used anything to compare it to, so if MR is better (and hopefully faster) then that all sounds good to me.
Concerning LWs HBD, I've been having a hard time with them recently. Tried to get a bunch of dominoes to fall over. Suffice to say, I gave up :)
Concerning the particles in XSI, if this is an area that needs attention, are Softimage the kind of company that will take issues raised by the community adn give them the attention that they require?
Oh, and XSI is intimidating to some? I can handle myself :)

Mocaw: Rendering hypervoxels in FPrime takes the same time as in LW's renderer.

While I'm on this subject, how does XSI compare with LWs hypervoxels the for volumetric effects such as smoke, explosions, etc? There is also a brand new plugin for a new type of LW HV's that look very powerful. It's called Dynamite I think.

Yog: I totally agree with your last point, hence why I'm asking all these questions. I may be a LW user but that doesn't mean I don't have an open mind :)

j3st3r: If the NT marketing team is to be believed, then there will be a huge leap from LW version 8 to version 9. Also, I would've been satisfied with LW, sitting in my room in my own little world until I heard something from someone that made go out and look at XSI. And Maya, but thats just so expensive it's stupid. And it looks like a Quake level editor.

yog

12-16-2005, 01:31 PM

Concerning the particles in XSI, if this is an area that needs attention, are Softimage the kind of company that will take issues raised by the community adn give them the attention that they require?Yes definitely. Apart from the big surprises of XSI-5 (Gator, Ultimapper, etc), most of the improvements to the last release were very much customer led. Nice solid new features that actually do what they say, unlike say, another company that produces a looky-like feature that has "their own spin" on the concept, but doesn't always work as it should and doesn't play well with the rest of the program. Mentions no names ;)
Ol' Sheep would know better than the rest of us, but the story that went around when XSI-5 was released (from people that would likely know), was that Softimage had taken on board the crits on the particle system, were working hard on it, and would likely be released as a point release early 2006. Take this as you wish, as there hasn't been a hint of anything official on the matter.

While I'm on this subject, how does XSI compare with LWs hypervoxels the for volumetric effects such as smoke, explosions, etc? There is also a brand new plugin for a new type of LW HV's that look very powerful. It's called Dynamite I think. I've not really used XSI's volume features (it's not the sort of work I do), but the impression I got on a very brief test is that they are slower. There is a very cheep plug-in for XSI called Genie-Tail that is reported to be very good, but I've not used it. Yep, Dynamite looks like it could be very good.

j3st3r: If the NT marketing team is to be believed, then there will be a huge leap from LW version 8 to version 9. And what marketing division worth their salt wouldn't say this ? In fact I'm fairly sure NT have said this every version since I started with LW-5.0 :D

Like you say, there is absolutely no reason to drop LW, it's just that you will likely gain more by adding XSI.

WillBellJr

12-16-2005, 03:10 PM

Wow, nice thread - somewhat spicy but nice, none the less...

It's also nice to see that others see the Messiah folks for what I saw - that was definitely a waste of my monae for sure! :scream:

I would like to also say, lets give Lightwave a break - it's an old app, it's a WORKHORSE, it has made a lot of folks money - lets at least respect it for that. It's not a hard system to learn, and it's not filled with too many surprises which means, you can get your work done while having some hair left at the end of the day (in most cases...)

I do stand corrected about the $7000 pricing, I had my narrow-vision glasses on when looking at that price; I forgot about syflex et al, I just wanted the hair and compositing...

Actually I wish that Softimage would charge extra - "module pricing" for hair and compositing for add-ons to FND.

I'd be willing to pay about $800 or so for hair and compositing, or at least $500 for hair - definitely save the hard body and other stuff for Advanced.

My reasoning? XSI is a PRIMO character animation program - it's very sexy right now for sure.

For >character work< you DO need at least HAIR, I me c'mon HAIR, give me HAIR. I mean we can't have our lovely animated female models all walking around bald! (Well unless you're doing a fan-film for Star Trek the Motion Picture...)

Let me buy hair for $300 - $400 on top of XSI:FND, let me spend $250-$400 for compositing - let me really get my character work done without all the extra bigg-boi tois...

If Softimage would break out their 2 modules at least like this, they would be GODS IMO!

I'd also be willing to pay $2500 - $2800 for ESS with hair no problem (if it's really "better" than Sasquatch)

-Will

mcewan7

12-16-2005, 03:30 PM

SheepFactory

12-16-2005, 03:49 PM

Anything you care to share? Will we see this as in 5.x soon or 6.x soon or is it third party?

I remember reading in a Gareth Morgan interview that the particle system is in for a big overhaul. Everybody wants node based particle trees. I dont know what version or when though.

T4D

12-16-2005, 11:09 PM

I would like to also say, lets give Lightwave a break - it's an old app, it's a WORKHORSE, it has made a lot of folks money - lets at least respect it for that. It's not a hard system to learn, and it's not filled with too many surprises which means, you can get your work done while having some hair left at the end of the day (in most cases...)

this qoute i hear alot from LWer's but I personally don't understand it

if you deliver pizza's and you car keeps breaking down and others are using much faster and more reliable cars that can hold more pizza's
you would be better off as a business to buy a new car

Sure love is there for you old fav tool / car
But business is Business, time is money and "workarounds" cost time and money

waiting for the company to give you a update you have to pay for when you can just Buy a much better product right now just doesn't make scents ???

I too dislike that fact my Fprime and G2, HDinstance etc etc etc won't be used too much in the future and I can't sell LW for $1 when it cost me $4000 and more for all the plugins !!!

But Business like life and just like ex girl friends

we all have to move on at some point :sad:
and the sooner you move on, the sooner you will be happier at work/life/art again :D

Pixelnoir

12-17-2005, 07:21 AM

[QUOTE=Leigh]Next year :)[/QUOTE

There's "astering XSI's Render Tree" training vid.

Pixelnoir

12-17-2005, 07:27 AM

yog

12-17-2005, 02:57 PM

we all have to move on at some point :sad:
and the sooner you move on, the sooner you will be happier at work/life/art again :DI hear where you coming from. I was extremely dissapointed around the time of LW-7.5-8.0 (which is also the time I started using other apps), and I'm sure that began to show in my posts at the time. It was the shear frustration that the areas of LW that I used most (modelling and rendering) just didn't seem to be going anywhere, which was compounded by finding how much better a lot of things were in other apps. It seemed at the time that Newtek were overly worried about straightening the curtains whilst the house was burning down. The vocal crowd on the sidelines applauding NT for "straigtening the curtains" probably didn't help the temper of my posts at the time either ;)

Having got some distance on the situation in the last 18 months (haven't used LW much), I can at last again look back and see LW isn't a bad tool. It's modelling and rendering tools (let alone animation) are still way behind most other apps, but on a basic level it is still quite competant.
I'm still not happy with the current direction LW is going, but I'm a lot more relaxed on the subject .... because it is no longer my problem :cool:

T4D

12-17-2005, 04:21 PM

Having got some distance on the situation in the last 18 months (haven't used LW much), I can at last again look back and see LW isn't a bad tool. It's modelling and rendering tools (let alone animation) are still way behind most other apps, but on a basic level it is still quite competant.
I'm still not happy with the current direction LW is going, but I'm a lot more relaxed on the subject .... because it is no longer my problem :cool:

Agree I still do Lightwave contract work, I used it last week ;)
I hope LW 9 is better cause of that work, ( not feeling real hopeful :sad: )
But try to uses messiah or XSI depending on the job and the budget ;)

Lightwave is a tool like any other, But some tools are better for the job then others
I still find it hard to leave my Fpime G2 combo But XSI is feeling better with everyday :applause:

Sbowling

12-18-2005, 04:23 AM

Anti-Distinctlyminty Wrote:

>>Sbowling: I've always been pleased with LW renderer, but have not used anything to >>compare it to, so if MR is better (and hopefully faster) then that all sounds good to me.
>>Concerning LWs HBD, I've been having a hard time with them recently. Tried to get a >>bunch of dominoes to fall over. Suffice to say, I gave up :)
>>Concerning the particles in XSI, if this is an area that needs attention, are Softimage the >>kind of company that will take issues raised by the community adn give them the attention >>that they require?
>>Oh, and XSI is intimidating to some? I can handle myself :)

I was pretty happy with the lightwave renderer until I started using XSI. That was when I started noticing all the little things that I've heard other people complain about in the LightWave renderer. I was looking through the Newtek message board the other day and a lot of th renderers seem to have a very plastic look to me now. Even my old stuff looks like that. It's sort of like watching an old sci-fi movie you loved when you were a kid and realizing how bad that movie really was.

The biggest problem I have with the Particles in XSI is that there are a TON of settings. It can really be overwhelming at first. I don't do a lot of particle work, so it usually takes me a few minutes to remember where all the settings I need are located, but after that it goes pretty nicely.

As for softimage responding to their customers needs, they have a special projects using that seems to be geard to take a look at problems their customers have and finding solutions to them. This really shows in the product which feels very professional and the members of this forum feel much more professional the the LightWave comunities (which feel like a hobbiest community). By many of the responses I've recieved here I get the impression that these people use this product regularly and they seems to have solutions to all the problems that I've run into.

The most important thing I would recommend that you do is download the demo, go through and _do_ all the tutorials that come with XSI (seperate download), then go through the downloads area on the Softimage website and download all the video tutorials for the areas you feel you still need help in and watch them (many of them are for older versions of XSI, but still apply to the current versions). If you still have questions, you should be able to find most answers in the XSI guides and then if you still need help come back here and ask. Also, don't forget to check out Edharriss.com and XSIbase. If you still feel you need aditional training I highly recommend 3dtutorial.com (I was in a hurry when I strted out and needed to get up to speed very quickly, so I bought most of the video tutorials the have and have to say it knocked months off of my learning time.).

>>While I'm on this subject, how does XSI compare with LWs hypervoxels the for volumetric >>effects such as smoke, explosions, etc? There is also a brand new plugin for a new type of >>LW HV's that look very powerful. It's called Dynamite I think.

I've seen some good smoke and fire effects done with XSI. Some of the sample scenes that come with XSi aren't that great, but I've been able to get them to look pretty good with a little tweaking. I think they are prbably old scenes, but they are a good starting point when learning what everything does.

>>Yog: I totally agree with your last point, hence why I'm asking all these questions. I may >>be a LW user but that doesn't mean I don't have an open mind :)

>>j3st3r: If the NT marketing team is to be believed, then there will be a huge leap from LW >>version 8 to version 9. Also, I would've been satisfied with LW, sitting in my room in my >>own little world until I heard something from someone that made go out and look at XSI.

Remeber what NT marketing promised with L8 and then compare it to what they delivered with L8. Also, remeber how L8 it was delivered. :rolleyes: I'm honestly not expecting much from L9, and I'm not expecting it to be in any usable form for at least another year. From the Siggraph videos it also looked like other than trying to wedge the modeling tools into Layout, they are still just adding more third party plugins into the program. I'm sure the people who have already paid for those plugins will be thrilled with that. On that note the only third party plugin I really use for XSI is Lume Tools and it's free, so it's a no brainer.

Other than that I can easily write scripts to cover most of the other things I need (which is usually no more than moving some command that's been buried in a submenu out onto the toolbar where it's easily accessable). Scripting is very powerful in xsi and very easy. I didn't do any scripting in LW because I'm not a programmer and could not afford the time it would take me to learn a custom programming language. In XSI it's VBscript and that's close enough to the basic language that I really didn't have to learn anythng to be able to use it. Things like creating custom sliders to control multiple lights from a single slider or linking parameters is little more than drag and drop. Most commands get logged into the script editor, so it's really easy to create a button to do repetetive tasks. Modeling in XSI is much different than modeling in LightWave and your first impression may be "this sucks", but if you spend the time to learn how to use the modeling tools you will never want to go back to LightWave for modeling. The Snap functions are just plain awesome! I gave up modeling in LightWave for modeling in modo and surprisingly enough I've given up modeling in Modo for XSI. The important thing is that you do the tutorials and take the time to learn the program. If you just open it up and try clicking on a few buttons you will get nowhere fast.

Ok, I think I've rambled on long enough for now.:)

Sbowling

12-18-2005, 04:24 AM

Agree I still do Lightwave contract work, I used it last week ;)

I'm sorry. :D

Anti-Distinctlyminty

12-18-2005, 12:38 PM

SBowling: Thanks for all the advice.

The more I look into XSI, the better it seems. Currently, time is not an issue with me, I don't have to get up to speed on anything fast, so I'll happily download the demo & trundle through the tutorials. For the work I currently do, I'll just have to keep progressing with LW, as my company wont fork out for another application, as I work in an area that has nothing to do with cg - I just do it in my own time for pretty pictures and presentation animations. Due to the work I'm involved in, I actually need something like hypervoxels, but if Softimage respond to customer needs, then I guess it's only a matter of time. Depending on the perceived need.

I wasn't around for the release of LW8, I came on the scene at LW8.3 after not using LW since version 6 I think it was. I'll take your implication that the release was a debacle :) LW9 has already been delayed, but I don't mind so much myself, I'd rather have it working when it does get here.

I guess all that remains now is for me to check out Maya & C4D (though this doesn't seem to get much of a mention anywhere - I guess there's a reason for that). Though Maya's interface makes me want to vomit.

WillBellJr

12-18-2005, 03:03 PM

this qoute i hear alot from LWer's but I personally don't understand it

if you deliver pizza's and you car keeps breaking down and others are using much faster and more reliable cars that can hold more pizza's
you would be better off as a business to buy a new car

Sure love is there for you old fav tool / car
But business is Business, time is money and "workarounds" cost time and money

waiting for the company to give you a update you have to pay for when you can just Buy a much better product right now just doesn't make scents ???

I too dislike that fact my Fprime and G2, HDinstance etc etc etc won't be used too much in the future and I can't sell LW for $1 when it cost me $4000 and more for all the plugins !!!

But Business like life and just like ex girl friends

we all have to move on at some point :sad:
and the sooner you move on, the sooner you will be happier at work/life/art again :D

Hi - well, I'm not sure about the analogy but I'll follow it for now...

First, Lightwave isn't broken - this is what I meant by it's a workhorse; people successfully get their jobs done on a regular basis and have made decent money using it.

Is the >interface< or perhaps workflow outdated, in some people's opinions, sure. But that shouldn't detract from the quality that's inherent of the software.

I mean, I own my piece of XSI just like others here (well, my poor lil FND level package) and I love it just as much as anyone else here.

I've not used LW in a while except for a client job I had recently - my comfort level of finishing important work using XSI isn't quite as high yet as it is with LW but I certainly would have used XSI if it was.

So I'm not really all against this train of thought but I do still appreciate the power and capabilities of my Lightwave package and what I can accomplish with it...
...And I still remember how good it felt to finally "get what the bigg-bois got" at the time!

I'd rather have LW than trueSpace or Animation Master (not a fair comparision) which is where I came from (and lawd knows if Hash got their software engineering right, that package would be formidable to say the least but how changing a GUI slider causes the renderer to break is beyond me - what spagetti code that package must be under the hood! :scream: )

So, is Newtek struggling to make LW as sexy as XSI? You damn skippy, but that's not to detract from the fact that Lightwave is a package that allows you to make accurate models (I'm still strugging with scale issues using XSI) and beautiful renders which is where the bread and budder comes from...

If anything, the only thing here in the XSI camp that keeps me going back to LW instead of ESS is HAIR - I need HAIR dammid!

Hell, give me a module with >thinning hair< in FND! Hair, with random male pattern baldness! Even that'll be good! :banghead:
(I mean look at my avatar - obviously HAIR is a major stumbling block for me in XSI and in my day to day escapades!..)

-Will

T4D

12-19-2005, 03:17 AM

everything you said they i agree with WillBellJr

I still feel more comfortable in LW as well
but i have done afew jobs in XSI SO I'm getting there
Also I too wish XSI had a Cheap hair option

But I feel, Specially with the lame LW 9 videos released and LW needing so much
LW May be slipping into the Hash, truespace , carrara range of 3D software
( have you seen the latest releases of Truespace & carrara They have more then LW now !!! )

WillBellJr

12-19-2005, 02:06 PM

Hi Thomas, EXACTLY - though, I'd hope that LW is still above that class of packages, I don't think people will continue to respect the power and quality that's behind it IF Newtek doesn't upgrade the GUI and workflow issues.

I remember that "white" mockup GUI that someone did proposing it as the way LW 9/10+ should look - and it did look good too with the tabs and all...

I believe THAT is what people want from Lightwave regardless as to whether it improves the speed or output quality - peeps want an up to date interface (aka sexy) and a lot of folks want that combined workflow similar to XSI.

I'll admit, when LW 9 was announced I didn't even >care<! I was riding the pending XSI5, ZBrush 2.5 and Silo announcements and updates like a mad man!

I reluctantly upgraded only because of the Vue5i deal (to upgrade my Vue4) and was still reluctant to do that cause I know that the integration between the two isn't considered as important as for 3DS and Maya (they already got XStream - poor LW can't even get properly textured objects into V5i without headaces...)

So this may be my last upgrade for LW as well - I'm certainly ready to move up to XSI:Ess but I'd appreciate a hair solution (at least) before I make the commitment.

We'll see what happens in time...

-Will

norvman

12-22-2005, 10:08 PM

Wow! what a thread...

T4D glad to hear all your comments man...

I have a question about Point Oven... (which I just placed an order for it ) tell them you sold me on it... <img>

Your saying Point oven will bring character models in from LW ... you Rig and Animate them in XSI... the Point oven will take the animation back into LW to do your rendering?... is that correct?

Sorry ... I think I may have ask you about this 6 or so mcnths back... but I have been attending a local College here to get AutoCAD certified so I can get paid to do Archtect walk Throughs... so my brain is kinda of fried from having to mess with OttoCAD<img>

Anywayz.... nice to see so many Wavers have come over to XSI ... I don't feel so alone any more....

<img>

T4D

12-23-2005, 12:20 AM

Yes :D

But There's are some issues I'm having with Point oven with XSI 5.0 ess
I seem to have to load up the file in XSi 4.2 then save as a xSi file then open that file into XSI 5.0, But I export back to LW fine.

any way I'm sending a email to mark today But sure others would have send the same bug report, Hoping for a bug fix update soon for XSI 5.0

toluabisola

12-23-2005, 11:31 AM

For me this has been an extremly illuminating thread, its nice to know that im not alone in how i feel in regards to Lightwave.
I learnt 3d in Lightwave I got my first job in the industry with Lightwave and I have taught courses using Lightwave so for a long time i felt.....i owed Lightwave something (I know weird eh?:shrug: )
I used to watch all the inovations taking place in other apps and always found an arguement to say why it didn't matter if Lightwave didn't have the same. In fact in my first industry job (Three Blind Mice based in london) on our fag breaks we used to bitch about how much lightwave pissed on everything else, (so smug so superiour... ah memories:rolleyes: )
But slowly but surely I began moving away from Lightwave. It began with Modo which when i first used it felt like what Lightwave modeller should have been but obviously wasn't. But I was still bringing things into Lightwave to texture, animate and render eventually i stopped animating characters in lightwave (and probably added five extra years to my life) and instead imported animation using Motionbuilder into Lightwave.
But the straw that finally broke the camels back was Zbrush. The one saving grace for me was The lightwave renderer but it was almost useless with Zbrush output :argh: , enraged I said no more and threw myself into learning other packages instead. Now finally i've settled on Softimage FND and will not be looking back, its a great package which looks great (quite important) and responds great with kick ass industry tried and tested tools, the material system could be made a little simpler (Please Leigh I need that book:bounce: )
All in all im more than a little sadenned by what has happened to the package that gave me so much but all realtionships end its just a matter of when I would say maybe Lightwave 9 will be the answer (but i think in our heart of hearts we all know it won't be) Lightwave can still kick ass if need be (stargate SG1 and Atlantis to name a few) it just dosent kick ass the way i need it to anymore
__________________________
Tolu Abisola
Baby Dragon & Metahuman WIP
http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=25203 (http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=25203)
Cardassian Woman
http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthrea...ardassian+woman (http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthrea...ardassian+woman)
Harpie
http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=28783 (http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=28783)
Barbarian & Commando
http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=30272 (http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=30272)
Third dimension 3D course
http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/com.../abisola/1.html (http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/community/lightwave/abisola/1.html)

yog

12-23-2005, 12:53 PM

I learnt 3d in Lightwave I got my first job in the industry with Lightwave and I have taught courses using Lightwave so for a long time i felt.....i owed Lightwave something (I know weird eh?:shrug: )
I used to watch all the inovations taking place in other apps and always found an arguement to say why it didn't matter if Lightwave didn't have the same. In fact in my first industry job (Three Blind Mice based in london) on our fag breaks we used to bitch about how much lightwave pissed on everything else, (so smug so superiour... ah memories:rolleyes: ) No, you're not weird, and not alone either. It seems a lot of us on this side of the fence have gone through similar with Lightwave.
I used to defend LW to the death, so what if none of my clients had ever heard of LW, that was more down to them being uninformed rather than LW's lack of market penatration. So what if LW didn't have Function-A, with Functions X,Y & Z and a little of B and C as well we could do almost as well. And if all the top studios were using other software, that was ONLY because the other software manufactures were bribing them to use it.

Like you say, it's only when you start using other software, and see what it can really do, that the rose coloured glasses begin to slip.
LW was a great piece of software, like many others I got my start with it, and for some things it can still be very good, but IMHO it's becoming more and more a niche tool.
NT seem frantically keen to cram as many of the old industry tools into LW, but again IMHO they really are sacrificing the workflow and useability to do so, just so they can tick a box to say they now have it.
Example : NT can now claim LW has NLA, spline based animation deformers, point level animation (with the FX-hack), and expression diven deformation. The trouble is, not only don't any of these functions work very well by themselves, but no two work together at all.

toluabisola

12-23-2005, 01:26 PM

Quote:

NT can now claim LW has NLA, spline based animation deformers, point level animation (with the FX-hack), and expression diven deformation. The trouble is, not only don't any of these functions work very well by themselves, but no two work together at all.

Oh, no doubt, no doubt!! I wasn't even intresting in touching it when they included because i just knew it would a piss poor implementation of what other packages have done so successfully.
In some ways the bizzare beheviour of tools in LW did give me and I sure many others a good grounding in problem solveing skills (it was either that or go mad :scream: ) that im sure benefit them today and in Lightwave's defence when ever i do go back in there i just find i feel so comfortable with it (guess no supprise since i've been using it since 5.6:shrug: )

It's just nowadays it can't get the things i need done without some poxy workaround. I mean haveing to ramp up the render subdivision level in Lightwave to ridiclous levels just to render displacement maps completly defeats the purpose of using disp maps in the first place and thus makes more or less useless for animation. But having said that when LW 9 comes out I will test the new rendering tech with my ZBrush objects it may be quite good.

Oh and Newtek need to post new videos of what Lightwave 9 can do, those new videos from the perspective of someone who uses Softimage and marvels at its brilliance, were just down right embarassing (sorry if that sounds really harsh but it must be said)

toluabisola

12-23-2005, 01:30 PM

Oh and another thing that made me realise that something was not quite right with LW was when I saw T4D on this forum and he was no longer in love with LW i remember his character plug-ins if he had lost the love i had to ask why?

_________________
Tolu Abisola
Baby Dragon & Metahuman WIP
http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=25203 (http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=25203)
Cardassian Woman
http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthrea...ardassian+woman (http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthrea...ardassian+woman)
Harpie
http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=28783 (http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=28783)
Barbarian & Commando
http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=30272 (http://206.145.80.239/zbc/showthread.php?t=30272)
Third dimension 3D course
http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/com.../abisola/1.html (http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/community/lightwave/abisola/1.html)

norvman

12-23-2005, 04:18 PM

Well while everyone is sharing their... "Why I'm not a Waver Story..." ha! <img>

Let me share mine and maybe it will add some insight maybe not...

I got introduced to Wave on the Video Toaster 4000 on an Amiga 4000 way back when ...

I have sort of been in and out of the Animation business several times... (being a traditional Artist I sometimes have to go paint a mural on a wall or something like that now and again...just so I can keep my nose hairs curled with the smell of fresh paint..... aaaaaaahhhhh!)<img>

Anyway back then LW was the best... it had it all... inf act XSI reminds me alot of the old Wave back then...
back then... LW didn't even have bones... muchless Character Animation...

after having Experineced the Toaster and Lightwave for a few years I ended up selling them and going to work for an Ad Agency doing Drawings and Cartoons for print

Then.... having some time away from movies and Animation... I got the bug again and came back... but this time I wanted to do a full blown script... basically converting my comic book stories over to Animation right? Independant film style ....

So for me this time around it is aaaaaaaalllllll about the characters... and the Animation of those characters.....

I'm not so interested in SFX for live action movies ... even though that does have it's draw for me....

For me it's the telling of stories in a more 'Animated' Medium... like Starship Troopers, Toy Story and the Increidables.....

Now here is the crux of the situation in which I gave up on NT and LW.... (please note I also have LW9 on order....) (but only because I like others here are so far into it time and money wise I can't afford to just let it drop completely right now... )

But Newtek, about a year ago, puts up a 'feature request' page on the NewTek Lightwave forum.... (sorry I forget the web address... but I am sure everyone knows where it is....) and on this page I remeber we all put our request for features... seems I remember guys like Polycarpo and T4D were paramount amoung those like my self asking for improved... (meaning fixed because it's broke) Character Animation tools....

All fine and dandy right.... Well then I note that they have a feature request Poll...
And on this feature Request Poll I see that only 2% of the request are Character Animation improvements.....
That is to say... according to the Poll everyone wants other things in Lightwave other than good Character Animation Tools....

Now that tells me something and should tell us all something...

Now either someone at NT decided to manipulate that poll such that it would read the way they wanted it to read...
(that is to say... the features we are currently working on just happen to be the features that everyone is requesting....)
Or so they are making it look as if that is the case so they can claim to everyone....
Look! we 'do' lissen to our customers...

Stop and think about this folks... I'm not saying this is what happened ... but a Poll on a website brought and paid for by NewTek...
(anyone with any knowledge of statistics will tell you Polls are the easiest of things to be manipulated....)
(also I have been in Advertising for years... I know (and have seen) what Adverting Sales people can do to put their spin on things...)

But it makes no difference if they did this nor not... (I'm just saying it's possable...)

But Lets say the Poll was 100% honest and the good folks at NewTek were 100% honest....

What does that tell you then?....

Look at all the other packages.... Maya... C4D.... Max.... XSI .... look at how hard these guys try to cater to the Character Animation people of the business....

What this tells you is....

that nobody who uses Lightwave 'wants' good Character Animation in Lightwave....

People who purchase Lightwave purchase it to do Flying Logos and Space-A-Mo-Ships...
(which okay I'm an condemded treky so don't start razing me about my Space ship models...)

Or at least this is what that Poll was telling us... (unless of coarse the Poll was some how wrong....)

So here we are ..... The Character Animators.... Lightwave didn't want us... here we find ourselves with another package...

I once thought the Amiga Platform was the greatest platform of the time ... (and in my opinion it was...) but the company went under.... (that certainly wasn't my fault.... I gave them my money ... plenty of it...I gave them my time... in learning the package... I gave them my Loyalty.....)

I once thought Lightwave and Newtek was the greatest CG package going.... and I have given them my money... plenty of it.... I gave them my time.... learning the package... I gave them my loyality....

If there is one constant in the universe it is this...... Things change....

We are now giving XSI our money.... soon we will be investing our time... will they get our loyality....?

Or will we learn from out past mistakes .... ?<img>

norvman

12-23-2005, 04:36 PM

heres that Poll address

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=24777

not much of a Character Animators dream huh?

mocaw

12-23-2005, 05:12 PM

Wow- maybe we need to abduct LW users and send them to an XSI re-programing camp!

Yeah, I had only done minimal CA once before last month (most of what I do is for print) and was dreading working on this project where I had two days to animate three minutes! The last time I had done CA for a short was in LW- hence why I was dreading it. Well, even totally sleep deprived, ignorant to 90% of how XSI works, I was able to get done in six hours what would have taken me days in LW. To add to my XSI wonder after this project was the fact that it was the first time I had used IK for about 99% of the animation! In native LW IK is painful for those not familar with the black art so I use to do about 60% of my animation in FK.

Anyway- I was blown away with XSI 5's CA tools- I could never build a rig like what the rig guide had me kick'n out in 10min! So now I'm looking forward to CA- not dreading it, and it's making me think about trying out some more CA work and not just doing print/backdrop work.

On a side note- I was porting a character over to LW the other day who has a metal face plate, and even with Fprime I just couldn't get my antroscopic highlights and reflectons to look as good as I was getting it in XSI. I still can't beleive LW doesn't have simple things like this- and it goes to show that even if MR is a little harder to grasp it doens't mean it's harder to get difficult materials working- infact it's easier. I'm now holding off on getting PO 'till nine comes out since the lack of a nodal shader system in LW makes it so much HARDER to texture in!

DotPainter

12-23-2005, 07:08 PM

The only thing I am happy about is that the pricing structure has changed so much in 3d land, allowing many more users to sample the wares of XSI and Maya. The biggest impression I get from this thread (even though people dont say it), is that LW WAS the best bang for the buck until others lowered their prices, especially Softimage. With that move, a lot of the small things that LW lacked and people put up with just became too much and caused many to move. LW always had been the relatively cheap cousin of all the rest, providing a low cost alternative to getting things done. However, there has always been
some basic things that the program doesnt do well that hopefully will be fixed soon.
So even if it is the cheapest all round solution, it still needs to fix those basic issues, as well as add new features in order to regain its somewhat lost luster. Most of the basic things that people get annoyed with are along the lines of edges, ngon subd in modeller (maybe not basic, but standard in most other apps), soft shadows and faster rendering in layout, better integration of layout and modeller, better faster animation and rigging, better/faster dynamics and things like native SSS, GI caching and micro poly displacement.

Hopefully, with all the improvements to LW9, they will be able to fix the BASIC problems with the program, as well as begin to add more "advanced" features. Time will tell and we shall see. But even with some of its flaws and no matter how XSI FND is now, you have to understand that there is STILL no such thing as a free lunch. If you want the most UBER package that does everything well and has a nice interface, you still have to spend top money. This is not only for the package itself, but probably plugins as well as a TD/programmer to boot. So, all things considered, given what people want to do at the sub $1000 price range, I think it is a little bit absurd to expect the world from ANY package. That said, XSI being a different pedigree than all the other apps, including Maya, Max and Lightwave, meaning a brand new, from scratch rewrite of Soft 3d, it SHOULD be a more robust app in most areas, given that background. However, while I like what is in XSIs toolset, like most other tools, I have some issues with it. Even though it is very advanced, there are some things that could be better. So when I use XSI, rarely am I worried about LW and what it does/doesn't do. I worry about XSI and what I can/cannot do, no more no less. It is such a deep program to grasp that I really dont have time to worry about anything else. Likewise, when I use Lightwave, I use it for what I like and worry about what I can/cannot do with it more than what XSI does/doesn't do. I do it that way since, I know I am cheap, want everything for $300(maybe less if possible) and everything to render in almost real time..... so I got to keep that in mind :).

Julez4001

12-24-2005, 03:25 AM

POINTOVEN under XSI 4.2 worked like a charm.
Haven't given it a go in 5.0 but you could do all your character animation in Messiah and port it over to XSI and make the animation point data drive your fully textured/shaded character.

Sbowling

12-24-2005, 04:11 AM

I'm now holding off on getting PO 'till nine comes out since the lack of a nodal shader system in LW makes it so much HARDER to texture in!

The nodal shader is another hacked third party plugin like just about everything else in lightwave. I tried an early version and it was nothing to write home about.

One of the big things is XSI was that I never had any real problem with foot slip. I'm not sure if this was a problem with lightwave, or a problem with available (professional) training for lightwave, but footslip was a way of life in LightWave. In XSI my first rig I built (using the 3dtutorial.com rigging videos) had no foot slip issues, was more responsive and saved me hours of work. I've also noticed that models that choke both modo and lightwave both are very responsive in XSI.

Sbowling

12-24-2005, 04:14 AM

Julez4001

12-24-2005, 01:34 PM

Well I like the accessibility and integration of tools of Messiah but hey I've been using it since 1999 debut. The setup mode alone kicks "major" a$$ (and its a 6 year old concept) but I know when ppl get comfortable in apackage thathasn't let them down they are hardly canidates for change. I use Maya at work and can't stand the weigthing process.

XSI is a great app so no qualms here but messiah is a top tier character app.

You guys might want to use Pointoven PSC format to bring data beween Maya and XSI for Maya Fluids. Hindsigh lots of Maya folks just use Realflow for their liquid dynamics.

By the way, Lightwave may be old but man its still a proven piece of software in terms of modeling and rendering.

leigh

12-24-2005, 10:24 PM

I'm now holding off on getting PO 'till nine comes out since the lack of a nodal shader system in LW makes it so much HARDER to texture in!

I wouldn't hold my breath too much for Nodal. I tried it some months ago and it was nothing special. Unless NewTek have seriously re-written the entire rendering side of LightWave, having a node-based shading system is pretty pointless. The fact is that LightWave's actual renderer is a Phong renderer with virtually zero flexibility. Taking a node-based "shading" system onto this will not change the fact that you cannot actually set up proper shading systems in LightWave, only trees of textures.

Anti-Distinctlyminty

12-25-2005, 01:06 PM

Sil3

12-25-2005, 04:02 PM

I can't think of one good reason I would want to animate in messiah over XSI.

REALTIME playback (at 24, 25, 30, and even 60 fps ) while animating characters comes to my mind...but then again there are other things XSI does well that can take a bit in Messiah :p

Emmanuel

12-25-2005, 06:37 PM

grafikdon

12-25-2005, 06:44 PM

grafikdon

12-25-2005, 06:45 PM

REALTIME playback (at 24, 25, 30, and even 60 fps ) while animating characters comes to my mind...but then again there are other things XSI does well that can take a bit in Messiah :p

Including the juicy fact that you may not need to paint weights.

visualboo

12-25-2005, 06:46 PM

Lay off the eggnog Emmanuel :)

The fact that 9 isn't even out yet makes her statement perfectly valid. And on top of that it will still hold true even after 9 comes out.

Anti-Distinctlyminty: I think what Leigh was saying is that it has core limitations which basically reduces the power of a node based system. So basically you just have a new way to arrange the current set of materials. There is a LOT more to xsi and mayas rendertrees than just slapping a material together.

leigh

12-25-2005, 06:48 PM

Leigh, can you elaborate about the shading probelms with LW in terms that a relative newbie such as myself could understand? (been using LW for about 3/4 of a year). I thought the introduction of a nodal shader was a good thing, but if it offers no flexibility at all over the existing system, I wonder why they're bothering. Just to say they have a nodal tree shading system maybe?

LW's renderer has practically zero flexibility. If you've extensively used a renderer like Mental Ray in XSI, you'd know what I mean :) LW's surface editor is nothing more than a texture setup, not a shading system, as it only really allows you to plug textures into surface attributes, while not giving you any real control over actual shading, apart from a few small things like gradients, which even then are limited. There are no colour correction, math, or utility options that truly give you control over your shaders. I tried the Nodal beta at the beginning of this year and it had none of these. All it was, was a node version of LW's own surface editor. It simply allows you to plug textures all over the place, but as far as I am concerned, it was not a real shading system at all. It may well have changed by now, but I wouldn't get too excited about it yet.

leigh

12-25-2005, 06:49 PM

leigh

12-25-2005, 06:50 PM

Anti-Distinctlyminty: I think what Leigh was saying is that it has core limitations which basically reduces the power of a node based system. So basically you just have a new way to arrange the current set of materials. There is a LOT more to xsi and mayas rendertrees than just slapping a material together.

Yes, exactly :)

grafikdon

12-25-2005, 06:54 PM

Yes, you can set the subdivision levels for OpenGL and rendering seperately.

Whew! That's a relief 'cause I was begining to dream of a particular high end graphic card...which is out of my league at the moment.

visualboo

12-25-2005, 07:00 PM

Including the juicy fact that you may not need to paint weights.
Suuuure.

There are no automatic skinning systems out now that will cut the mustard. You will always have to manually adjust things. And adjust things on a per-problem/scene basis sometimes.

Of course you can slap a rig in a character and use the crappy default weighting. That's your decision.

Anti-Distinctlyminty

12-25-2005, 08:53 PM

LW's renderer has practically zero flexibility. If you've extensively used a renderer like Mental Ray in XSI, you'd know what I mean :) LW's surface editor is nothing more than a texture setup, not a shading system, as it only really allows you to plug textures into surface attributes, while not giving you any real control over actual shading, apart from a few small things like gradients, which even then are limited. There are no colour correction, math, or utility options that truly give you control over your shaders. I tried the Nodal beta at the beginning of this year and it had none of these. All it was, was a node version of LW's own surface editor. It simply allows you to plug textures all over the place, but as far as I am concerned, it was not a real shading system at all. It may well have changed by now, but I wouldn't get too excited about it yet.

Bugger.

Well, I'll be sure to take a look at XSI's shading tree when I feel teh urge. I just don't wish to waste valuable evaluation time of my 30 day trial when I don't have a clue what I'm actually doing.
As for LW9's shading tree, it's a bit odd that they have included it when it offers no increased functionality. Very queer.

As far as functionality goes, how does XSI foundation compare to LW? Or are the extra features in essentials considered...well, essential? I'm not really involved in character animation, more just small mechanical objects and such.

Chris-TC

12-26-2005, 01:05 PM

Don't tell me you guys load a bunch of super highres models in XSI and animate 'em :eek:

Last time I moved my lw models to XSI with Point Oven, I had to freeze 'em in LW before doing that. Way too much poly.

Way too many polys? How many are we talking about?
The other day I imported two full-blown ZBrush models of ~3 million polygons each directly into an XSI scene. We're talking about wireframes dense enough to render as constant white in the viewports unless you get really, really close.

I was able to navigate the viewports without any problems and I could perform modeling operations like "symmetrize polygons". Take in mind that this is real geometry, not subdivided geometry.

You wouldn't want to animate an object this geometry-heavy. But XSI rarely chokes on anything.
In other words: you probably *could* (haven't tried it :D ) rig and envelope a multi-million-poly character if you feel hardcore.

norvman

12-26-2005, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by grafikdon
Don't tell me you guys load a bunch of super highres models in XSI and animate 'em :eek:

Last time I moved my lw models to XSI with Point Oven, I had to freeze 'em in LW before doing that. Way too much poly.

Hummm I have yet to have any polly count problems with any of my characters...

Now if we are talking buildings and Sets and background Spaceship interiors fully 3D detailed out then yes those guys are going to have a bunch of polys... but those high poly objects slow down my Open GL in Lightwave too... And I certainly won't be building skeletons for the high poly sets and objects...

Might be a problem with the import from Point Oven.... have you mentioned this on there Yahoo groups forum before?....

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/PointOven/

Please Note Grafikdon.... I have never had to freeze any character models that I have moved from Lightwave to XSI via Point Oven yet... (I'm on about my 10th conversion at this point...) (haven't had PO for more than a week now...)

So that indicates to me that something is wrong with what is happening there when you try to do an Import....

Also...

Originally Posted by grafikdon
Including the juicy fact that you may not need to paint weights.

Man .... maybe it's just my work flow or something with my way of building Character Mesh... but I never had an instance where I didn't have to do a weight of somekind in LW

Usally a Body, Head, RtLeg, LtLeg.... and sometiimes some individual finger weights...

Every time I tried to not use weighting I spent just as much time adjusting Strength Multipiers, Range limits, Joint Compensations, and Muscle Flexing... etc...

I just found it easier to do weight maps.... (that's just me....)

<img>

yog

12-27-2005, 03:27 PM

Leigh, can you elaborate about the shading probelms with LW in terms that a relative newbie such as myself could understand? I wouldn't call LW's situation a problem, just a possible limit. The reason that LW materials are so fast to set up is because you have so little control over the shading model (as opposed to the texturing changes you can make). In fact the only shading paramater you have any real control over is the specular, and that's just a product of Phong.

For a lot of work out there, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a Phong only renderer, in fact you will need a fair bit of experience before you can appreciate or make use of a renderer that has more and lets you go deeper.
To show how deep XSI lets you go, over at 3d-Palace.com, Squid has some demo videos on how to recreate a phong material from scratch, using just Nulls for the light source. It's just an excersize, and way more complicated than you would actually need, but it does demonstrait the enormouse depth XSI will let you go.

As far as the Nodal surface editor in LW-9 goes. Although it certainly wont be anywhere as flexible as other node based shaders, and wont let you get to the guts of the renderer, and there is some question as to whether it will be integrated or just be a shader option in the first release of LW-9, I still see it as a step in the right direction.
Even before I found the depth and variation in XSI's nodal material editor, the thing that really impressed me first off was it's ability to connect one source to many outputs. The lack of this in current versions of LW becomes a real pain when you have the same proceedural controlling multiple functions, and then you want to make a series of changes, becuase at the momment you have to visit each instance of the proceedural and make the changes manually.

Sbowling

12-30-2005, 12:46 AM

Including the juicy fact that you may not need to paint weights.

Actually, if I remember correctly in messiah, you CAN'T paint weights. They added some thing where you set up some kind of sphere where it sets a radius of influence or something like that, but I felt it was a poor hack to replace weight painting.

Sbowling

12-30-2005, 12:49 AM

Okay, this is for Lightwavers who have experience with XSI. In lightwave (layout) you can lower the subpatch level of the objects to 0 and move your characters with ease. Is there anything like that in XSI? Don't tell me you guys load a bunch of super highres models in XSI and animate 'em :eek:

Last time I moved my lw models to XSI with Point Oven, I had to freeze 'em in LW before doing that. Way too much poly.

I've imported a few models from lightwave into XSI and had no problems. To increase or decrease subD level just use the + or - keys on the num pad. Can't get much easier than that.

Sbowling

12-30-2005, 01:02 AM

fez

12-30-2005, 03:50 AM

[QUOTE=yog]
As far as the Nodal surface editor in LW-9 goes. Although it certainly wont be anywhere as flexible as other node based shaders, and wont let you get to the guts of the renderer, and there is some question as to whether it will be integrated or just be a shader option in the first release of LW-9, I still see it as a step in the right direction.
QUOTE]

I hear that in some ways the nodal surface editor in 9 is more flexible than the XSI implementation (and in other ways not). Also, supposedly Nodal is deeply integrated, with all the SDK trimmings.

Anyway, since this is all hearsay, I will reserve judgement until I try it. But the buzz is good from a few folks seemingly familiar with both Lightwave and XSI.

mocaw

12-31-2005, 01:37 AM

It's true. Nodal was doing all sorts of tricks in LW 7.5 that would make the average LW users head spin. I know someone who has been in the LW 9 beta program for sometime, and they report that it is very flexable, has great presets (such as glass), and can be used with layers. The way it works with layers is interesting as in you can set a layer, and have each one corispond to several shader nodes. In essence it's a fast way to layer nodal based shadders. This always can be done manually though in a tree based system...

[QUOTE=yog]
As far as the Nodal surface editor in LW-9 goes. Although it certainly wont be anywhere as flexible as other node based shaders, and wont let you get to the guts of the renderer, and there is some question as to whether it will be integrated or just be a shader option in the first release of LW-9, I still see it as a step in the right direction.
QUOTE]

I hear that in some ways the nodal surface editor in 9 is more flexible than the XSI implementation (and in other ways not). Also, supposedly Nodal is deeply integrated, with all the SDK trimmings.

Anyway, since this is all hearsay, I will reserve judgement until I try it. But the buzz is good from a few folks seemingly familiar with both Lightwave and XSI.

mlmiller1983

12-31-2005, 11:35 PM

I'm not ditching Lightwave anytime soon but I see no reason Not to get XSI.

I take it back, XSI is way better than LW. The more I use XSI the more I find it to be far superior to Lightwave. Yeah XSI is harder to learn but its worth it. Hard Body Dynamics, Character Animation, Rendering, Rigging, Modeling,etc its all better in XSI.

I don't regret buying LW8 though,it got me excellent discounts on Modo, Cinema 4D, and Mirage which more than made up for the $500 I paid for it.

MellowFellon

01-02-2006, 08:10 AM

Does anyone miss the rigid body dynamics in SF? Can soft body dynamics not be tweaked in some way to get similar resluts albeit a little bit "soft"

MellowFellon

01-02-2006, 08:15 AM

How can a $495 app be better than a $795 app?:curious: Experience and marketing?

daviddrbal

01-02-2006, 08:28 AM

How can a $495 app be better than a $795 app?:curious: Experience and marketing?

The cost is not similar to the quality every time.
Also do not forget XSI foundation is a marketing application. I mean Softimage have made foundation to get more users. More users mean higher interest by big studios or new studios who dealing with question what a software they need buy.

Also do not forget that "full" XSI is for almost 7.000 bucks, but in other way it doesnt mean you have only 1/14 of full version in Foundation. Foundation is not build for production - missing some features to make production flexible.

But in other way its nice solution even for big studios - do not pay for full version for modellers, lighting artist and so ... as a foundation has all what Advanced has ( not talking about hair, rigid body dynamics and syflex cloth )

MellowFellon

01-02-2006, 08:31 AM

And they have been around the block a few times.

Does anyone miss the rigid body dynamics in SF? Can soft body dynamics not be tweaked in some way to get similar resluts albeit a little bit "soft"?

Sbowling

01-02-2006, 12:47 PM

The cost is not similar to the quality every time.
Also do not forget XSI foundation is a marketing application. I mean Softimage have made foundation to get more users. More users mean higher interest by big studios or new studios who dealing with question what a software they need buy.

Also do not forget that "full" XSI is for almost 7.000 bucks, but in other way it doesnt mean you have only 1/14 of full version in Foundation. Foundation is not build for production - missing some features to make production flexible.

But in other way its nice solution even for big studios - do not pay for full version for modellers, lighting artist and so ... as a foundation has all what Advanced has ( not talking about hair, rigid body dynamics and syflex cloth )

I've been using XSI Foundation for several months in production. This is small time production, but it's outperformed lightwave in every way. We will be moving up to the more expensive versions as the needs arise, but for small companies this may be all that you really need.

Sbowling

01-02-2006, 12:50 PM

And they have been around the block a few times.

Does anyone miss the rigid body dynamics in SF? Can soft body dynamics not be tweaked in some way to get similar resluts albeit a little bit "soft"?

Probably, but then you would end up with what lightwave has. A poor set of dynamics that was never meant to do hard body dynamics. If you really need RBD, the $1500 price difference is worth it, not only that but you get Gator, Scripted operators and compositing (which I learned can be very usefull when making a tree light on fire).

MellowFellon

01-03-2006, 06:33 PM

Ha yes iv'e been ridin the wave for three years and coming from max i also think it's time to move. I dont care anymore, i just want a better way of work and flow, and i do not believe lw can deliver anymore. Not for me at least. I am practically a one - two man studio so, even at so little price tag it's wise to just try xsi.

ThomasLC

01-04-2006, 06:45 AM

From a shading/texturing/lighting/rendering/render passes standpoint, I have grown to love XSI for this reason. However, I never deal with animation data myself so I cannot give any insight on that side of things. I can, however, attest to the fact that XSI is an incredible piece of software and a package that I enjoy using on a daily basis, both at work and at home.

I don't animate either, rendering is my job and though I'm sick of LW's workarounds and unstability with heavy scenes I still use it because of Fprime…:hmm:

I think I need to switch to another package and XSI seems a natural evolution for me but my concern is render speed/cost ratio so I would like to know what you have experienced in this department…

basicaly I'd like to know how many mr licences are needed to sqeeze a print res rendering+multimilion poly+GI+raytracing in a few hours… (I usually don't have time to optimise my scenes due to deadlines)

toma.

mocaw

01-04-2006, 05:10 PM

Well from this standpoint it really depends on the scene. It sounds like you do a lot of things that would benefit from things like real instancing. XSI has wonderful instancing compared to LW (as LW doesn't even have it) and unlike HD instance it makes your scene render faster not slower. It's true though that LW+Fprime is a much simple solution for quick print work, but as you know you can never be certain of how long an Fprime render is going to take on a project. MR in XSI takes a while to learn (I still have a long way to go) but is more predictable, and allows you to cut some major corners once you get going that have very little effect on the final render quality.

You have much more control over who gets what kinds of rays etc. down to the material and node in XSI, and many of those features you don't even have to use the rendertree. I find MR's raytracing is far better than LW's and enables me to get better results without having always use a GI solution for everything. Did I mention how much time things like Lightmaps and Rendermaps save?

I'm still using LW+Fprime for print, but my print scenes are simple. I'm slowly moving over to XSI for everything else, and this just on a FND lic!

If you do decide to try out XSI do your self a favor and pick up some video training. I bought the XSI production series and even after watching much of it twice I still go back to it. There are many other great tutorials out there that get you started, but make sure to look at ones that deal with methods of optimization as you can waste a lot of time before and after render if you don't know the basics.

Anyway, I've seen many wonderful renders done by people on just one machine that are highres with GI solutions only taking 30min to 3hrs to render. I think with some practice MR can prove to be a very flexable and faster renderer. FND gives you two CPU's, but will use all the cores those CPU's have come rendertime so if you have a dual, dual core system...

In addtion- as LWers we have a tendancy to think of rendering being the place to save time, but after using XSI you begin to realize just how much other parts of the package mater in this area. The construction modes alone can save you huge amounts of time if you use them correctly and have a picky client. That's something that isn't even on the LW radar and is a base feature in XSI!

OK...I'll stop for now, but you should get ahold of some good free tutorials and download a copy for a month. After that just try FND and some good pay tutorials since the price you payed in FND can be applied to an ESS or ADV upgrade.

I don't animate either, rendering is my job and though I'm sick of LW's workarounds and unstability with heavy scenes I still use it because of Fprime…:hmm:

I think I need to switch to another package and XSI seems a natural evolution for me but my concern is render speed/cost ratio so I would like to know what you have experienced in this department…

basicaly I'd like to know how many mr licences are needed to sqeeze a print res rendering+multimilion poly+GI+raytracing in a few hours… (I usually don't have time to optimise my scenes due to deadlines)

toma.

Mechis

01-04-2006, 05:47 PM

If you do decide to try out XSI do your self a favor and pick up some video training. I bought the XSI production series

I just went to the softimage store and can't find the production series. Is Softimage not selling this anymore? Are there any online stores that sell them?

Thanks,
mechis

mocaw

01-04-2006, 06:06 PM

It looks like they've updated them, split them up, and re-packaged them:

http://store.softimage.com/store/Products/Family/Learning/default.asp?fam=true

Sorry...

SheepFactory

01-04-2006, 06:34 PM

first contact and tips and tricks dvd's are different then the production dvd's. They probably took em off because they were for V4 , might be coming out with new ones soon maybe :shrug:

BlastPhemy

01-04-2006, 08:11 PM

oops how did i do this

BlastPhemy

01-04-2006, 08:32 PM

i'm currently in a bit of turmoil in trying to decide between a few software packages, and losing the current crap called lightwave.. I have tryed to remain faithly to lightwave but enuff is enuff.. Seems like i will have to have patience of Ghandi if i want to wait for lightwave to come close to what XSI, or Maya, or Cinema has right at this time. I have downloaded the learning version of XSI and Maya and to be honest it is very scary to look at both of them. I guess it is just a phase of unlearning what i have been so used to, or maybe its the fact that coming from lightwave i'm not used to seeing anything with this much power.
I'm not trying to bash Lightwave but i just wish that i had started with something else because it feels like i have lost alot of time now.. :banghead:

mocaw

01-04-2006, 10:23 PM

I'm not trying to bash Lightwave but i just wish that i had started with something else because it feels like i have lost alot of time now.. :banghead:

Hey, look on the bright side: All that time you spent doing work arounds in LW has sharpened your problem solving skills!

I too was freaked out when I first tried out XSI- but really with some comprehensive training material you should be able to get 90% up to what you were doing in LW within a couple of weeks. Just try it out for a month and then try going back- LW will feel like an uninhabited wasteland compared to XSI!

For me XSI is much easier to use than Maya- maybe it's the continuity of things in XSI and the fact that like LW there aren't any pictographs to get confused by. The help system is really good to. Everytime I get frustraited with XSI I step back and realize I'm trying to do something that was nearly impossible with LW.

I love(d) LW- but I'm sick of forking over cash for 6.5+ some plugins every two years and nine is moving in the right direction, but about two versions too late. Once there is a third party plugin that does fur in XSI for under $1000 it's so long sucker to LW...

ThE_JacO

01-05-2006, 02:36 AM

Hey, look on the bright side: All that time you spent doing work arounds in LW has sharpened your problem solving skills!

most likely not ;)

in an industry where standards are few and far apart, and hardly ever widely agreed on, LW is one of the least standardized packages in the way it works, and often you have to work around THAT.
it is infact, by its nature, to generate workflows and habits that simply don't apply to any other package.

it sure will have sharpened anybody's patience though ;)

T4D

01-05-2006, 02:57 AM

most likely not ;)

in an industry where standards are few and far apart, and hardly ever widely agreed on, LW is one of the least standardized packages in the way it works, and often you have to work around THAT.
it is infact, by its nature, to generate workflows and habits that simply don't apply to any other package.

it sure will have sharpened anybody's patience though ;)

When i first read your post ThE_JacO I was " that's Crap !! LW is good for starting in 3D" Cause that's where i started :blush: ,.. but thinking about it I have to agree :thumbsup:

exsample LW's IK when i first started rigging in XSI and Messiah after many years in LW
I was drawning all my bones totally wrong, thinking about all the "workarounds" and how to design my Ik chains so the IK would " sort of " work the right way when animating
Big Mistake !! Big waste of time :banghead: It did still work But all the extra bones, limits Nulls was just a Big waste of time and didn't fit into Todays Rigging and animations workflow.

Both XSI and Messiah have proper IK settings and all the bugs/work arounds/limits of LW's IK just aren't in other packages, & those problems aren't there or one click away from being fixed with proper Ik Options. AND when you fix them THEY STAY FIXED !!! Solid as a rock :bounce:

Sure if your a modeler in LW you'll step up to XSI easy and without problem and You'll love edges Ngons and all the other stuff.

But your texture and Rendering ideas will have to be grow ALOT and quickly XSI is a huge and complex tool and a LW surface panel and some other minor LW rendering controls Look laughable compaired to XSI's render tree.

ThE_JacO

01-05-2006, 03:18 AM

When i first read your post ThE_JacO I was " that's Crap !! LW is good for starting in 3D" Cause that's where i started :blush: ,.. but thinking about it I have to agree :thumbsup:

well, what I wrote doesn't necessarily apply to starting in 3D, LW is probably still good to get started, and a lot of what it does will apply to other packages.

however, I stand by my opinion if we talk about problem solving; that is where LW won't pose some of the "problems" you find in other packages, due to its simplicity, but will also cull from you the "standards" and fundamentals of this industry, making your problem solving process highly localized to the app.

I think that is the bit we'd both agree about :)

T4D

01-05-2006, 03:45 AM

Yeah Totally :)
learning about the 3D principles in any apps be it Hash, truespace, Lightwave, Blender, Max or whatever is a good thing and always help you move up to XSI :D

But XSI is a huge beast and it goes very deep Sometimes other apps do put you in a odd POV because of the workflow your used to in some areas.
But really Not a major negative, I personally Havn't hit too much of a wall
but it did make me look back at Lightwave in a odd way sometimes and Think why was like that ??

Sbowling

01-05-2006, 05:41 AM

One of the best things about XSI is al the video training available. While there is video training available for LightWave it just can't compare to that of the XSI training. If you look at the training from 3dtutorial.com almost all the people doing the training are softimage certified instructors who have been working in the industry for many years and it really shows in the quality of the training. I've found that I don't just walk away from the videos knowing how to do the sepcific things that they show, but I understand how these things work and (to XSI's credit) these things migrate to all areas of the package.

As for the workflow part of the discussion, I just had to animate about a dozen lines of text flying on to the screen (one at a time).

In lightwave I would have had to create the text, animate it, texture it, then for the next line I would have had to creat the text animate it (or just parent it to an animated null), texture it, and for the next line I would have had to create the text, animate it, texture it.... you get the idea. Then when I need to render it all out I have my choice of saving each line of text out as it's own file to render, then render the nex, then render the next (requires a lot of babysitting) or move each line of text in time to they render out one at a time (but will all have the same file name and a continuous secuence number across all the different animations).

In XSI I created my text, surfaced it, animated it. Parented it all to a null, made a copy of the null (making sure I had the children objects selected) for each line I had. Then I went through and renamed the null and changed the text for what each line was supposed to say. After that I created and named a partition for each line of text, and turned off render and visibility for all the partitions. After that I duplicated the pass once for each line of text and changed the name of the pass and renamed the output file. After that I just went in to each pass and turned on the relevent partition for each pass and hit render all passes. Done...

Ok, maybe not. Today I showed my boss what I rendered out last night and he said that How as supposed to be Who and there were a few other small problems in some of the text I was given.

In lightwave I would have to delete the text for that project and start from scratch beveling, extruding, textureing (ok, copying the textures from the other projects) and animating (again copying). Then I would have to render these out one at a time and do the whole babysitting thing again.

In XSI I just had to open the Polymsh property (Not sure it that's the correct name) for each text object and change the text to what it was supposed to be, then do a render all passes again.

This was still a bit of work setting up all the individual passes but it only took me about an hour after I got my first object modeled, textured and animated. In lightwave having to remodel each line of text and recreate the animation for each line of text would have been a nightmare and I would have had to throw out all the modeling to fix the minor text changes that were needed.

BlastPhemy

01-05-2006, 08:35 AM

Hey T4D, and all the other X-Lightwavers out there.
I'm just wondering about how long did it take you to get up to speed with XSI?
My major decision will be based on animation. i was thinking about cinema 4d for its hair module alone,but the rigging aspects of C4D made me kinda cautious about jumping into that one.
I would like to know just how smooth it is to setup a character in XSI because i have previously been using Messiah for all that. I was never a great character rigger in lightwave i found it to be frustrating to get all the cool controls i was looking to have. Modeling is what i do best and if i can get a handle on it in XSI then i will switch. I'm taking the demo for a test drive and if i could find some video tutes to help me in modeling or just navigating around the viewport i would feel really confident about making the jump over..

I really appreciate all the advice that i have seen on this thread..

T4D

01-05-2006, 08:57 AM

the auto Rigger in XSI is Just FREAK"N EXCELLENT !!!
lots of options, very easy to customize, totally cool :buttrock:

learning wise the auto rigger after watching the tutorials videos you'll get it working for you in under an hour
Painting weights and setting all that up,.. a day maybe 2 at most ( fulltime ) and you be happy in XSI

But making rigs from nothing is pretty easy too, You can go Very VERY complex and go to extreme levels and still have a fast interactive rig and simple controls

the IK has alot of options you don't really uses but they seem to be there when somethings not right, afew days ( 2 - 4 days ) of buildng IK chains and dealing with JUST manually rigging and you'll have a good base to start from
& XSI rigging is Solid works and doesn't break, making it fun to learn, But there alot in it and that's why i like XSI you learn something new nearly everytime and they many way to do everything ( unlike Lightwave ) there's more in it to learn then Messiah alot more.

But texturing and rendering Is a BIG job to learn in XSI
this is XSI's big PLUS and at the same time Negative for a newbie
So much control,
so many different ways to do things,
So much power all in the hands of a dumbass !!:D
( This Is what i was thinking the first time i started :banghead: )

I also looked at C4D but the lack of rigging tools and CA just freaked me out So i tried XSI
never looked back :buttrock:

fez

01-05-2006, 09:26 AM

Is there a watermarked learning edition for XSI 5? I installed the trial but was soon slammed with work and did not have time to really give it a good run.

As a rule, I do not install trial software on my main workstations...but maybe just this once...

Anyway, I'd really like a watermarked version that I can tinker and do tutorials with on the odd afternoon.

Sbowling

01-05-2006, 12:25 PM

It took me a couple weeks before I started using XSI for work projects. I did take a week off when I first started with XSI and devoted the entire time to learning XSI. I found the training videos from 3dtutorial.com to be invaluable. I would highly recommend gettin the ACR (advanced character riggin tutorials) or at least the second one. The first goes over the basics in how things work in XSI, but the second is the real "meat and potatoes" or rigging. Honestly, I would recommend getting them all, because they are all great and will get you up to speed very quick with rigging in XSI. I actually bought most of the non-modelling related videos because the modelling tools have really changed a lot over the past few versions.

As for C4D, I would rank it's rigging and CA tools to be about the same as lightewave's, if not (very) slightly worse. I bought C$D when they had the lightwave companion special and it does a lot of things much better than lightwave, but Character Animation is not one of them.

First bit of advice I have is to go through the tutorials that come with XSI. They will really help you get a grip on the basic interface functions (these are not the lightwave tutorials you are used to). They will help you understand how to use constraints, rotate objects around other objects and a lot of other basics (many of which would be impossible in Lightwave).

The free videos on Mesmer.com are very nice and should help you get started on the basics of lighting and rendering in XSI. Also, there are tons of videos on softimage.com, but you need to be registered to access them (you also have to be regisetered to download the demo, so that shouldn't be a problem). Oh, I can't forget to mention the biggest single collection of tutorials I've found for XSI over at edharriss.com.

As for character setup, you don't really have to think that much about the IK in XSI. As you set up your bones you are setting up your IK. It's that simple.

For modeling, it's going to seem a bit weird at first, but once you get used to the way things work in XSI you will love it.

I didn't find the render tree (nodal surfacing system) to be too difficult and I absolutely love the power of it now that I have a good grasp of it. You just can not do this stuff in LightWave and (despite what I've heard) I doubt you will have this much power in LW9. The multi-material system is very cool and powerful. You can mix Blinn, Phong, strauss, etc. all on a single object. In LW you have Phong and that's about it.

Finally, the one thing I just could not get even the slightest grasp on in lightwave was scripting, but I've been able to write several small scripts to help me out in XSI and I'm starting to get real interested and excited by the possibilities that an average joe like myself can do in XSI with scripting.

Final bit of advice... Do not start reassigning hotkeys to match lightwave. You will just confuse yourself and make it near impossible to follow tutorials. I found the navigation system in XSI to be exactly what I always wanted, even though I never knew it. Hold down the s key and use the three mouse buttons to control your navigation modes. Awesome!

Oh, you can easily controll your subD levels by using the + and - keys on the Num pad. No more digging into property pannels adjust this stuff.

Ok, enough. I get excited when I start thinking about all the great things in XSI compared to lightwave.

mocaw

01-05-2006, 07:01 PM

Just for the record, my LW problem solving statement was a joke...but dead-pan is my humor style!

BlastPhemy
Don't even think twice about it. XSI's rigging tools are so good that even a rigging fool like me can "get things done". There was a reason I used to only do print work: LW's CA tools suck. Now I'm starting to do animation work and find I love it! The Biped-Guide tools are amazing for people like me. I just don't know how it could get much simpler or faster to make basic (basic for XSI- advanced for LW) custom rigs.

As T4D and others have stated the bone tools are well thought out too- with spring and other functions that make setting things up like insect legs etc. much, much easier.

I had a friend over last week who is a die-hard LW user and was showing him how basic rigging works in XSI- needless to say his jaw hit the floor. It was like a cave man discovering fire! I think showing him my basic use of up vectors alone had him freaking out.

Another thing worth noting here too is how much more responsive XSI is compared to LW. While Messiah and Motion builder probably hold the speed records XSI is no slouch. It's an important feature to note when doing animation.

Sil3

01-05-2006, 07:45 PM

It was like a cave man discovering fire!

ROTFLOL...

...this one made my day :applause:

BlastPhemy

01-05-2006, 10:22 PM

Does anyone have any opinions on which video tutorials would be the better purchase for a person trying to get up to speed??
I'm really interested in XSI now that i really took a look around the website and seen all the cool things that can be done.. Anyone happen to see that Face ROBOT thing.. LOoks awesome. :buttrock:

Sbowling

01-06-2006, 08:50 AM

Does anyone have any opinions on which video tutorials would be the better purchase for a person trying to get up to speed??:buttrock:

Without a doubt, 3dtutorial.com has the best XSI training I've seen. They also seem to have the largest selection. Not all of the training is 5.0 specific (actually I think only the particle tutorial is), but it all applies very well to the current version. They have a getting started tutorial that will walk you through the basics of moving to XSI from other programs (they use Maya as an example, but it helped me a lot coming from LightWave), the Advanced Character Rigging tutorial is incredible (save yourself some time and get the complete set at a discounted price, because you will want them all), The tutorial from Bernard Lebel is very good (name slips my mind at the moment) and the one on the render tree will help you get a good grip on the render tree.

norvman

01-06-2006, 03:49 PM

Thanks Sbowling for the info... I to have been looking for more XSI training info especially some good video tuts

:thumbsup:

paulrus

01-06-2006, 03:57 PM

Ditto on 3Dtutorial.com - my wife bought the complete ACR bundle for me for Christmas. Amazing tutorials. I'm about 3/4 of the way through my first viewing (there's no way to take in all this info after just one viewing). It was done in XSI 3.5, but so far I haven't found any reason why it can't work with 5.0.

Getting Started with XSI is another really great one & I thought I heard they'd done an update to it since 5.0 now includes all the Maya migration stuff.

Joe puts out some of the best stuff out there.

Paul

Sbowling

01-07-2006, 03:18 AM

Ditto on 3Dtutorial.com - my wife bought the complete ACR bundle for me for Christmas. Amazing tutorials. I'm about 3/4 of the way through my first viewing (there's no way to take in all this info after just one viewing). It was done in XSI 3.5, but so far I haven't found any reason why it can't work with 5.0.
<munch>
Paul

I found the best way to watch the ACR videos is to keep a pen and notepad handy and make notes of what he is doing and what videos they are on so you can come back to them later as needed.

norvman

01-07-2006, 03:20 PM

I just ordered ACR #1... you guys should see if you can get a sales discount from 3Dtutorial.com and show them this thread...

:) :deal: :curious:

BlastPhemy

01-11-2006, 06:35 PM

OH GOD NOOOOOO!!

Please tell me that you can model in symmettry mode. :cry:

Emmanuel

01-11-2006, 06:44 PM

mocaw

01-11-2006, 07:05 PM

"I found the navigation system in XSI to be exactly what I always wanted, even though I never knew it. Hold down the s key and use the three mouse buttons to control your navigation modes. Awesome!"

Oh yeah, that's sooooo awesome, way more awesome than holding down ctrl and use the mouse in LW...SCNR....

OK, so maybe that feature isn't the biggest deal. The Ctrl key in Layout doesn't work the same as the S key in XSI. Can you name the LW mouse shortcut to select a branch or tree?

Try offesetting animation in LW though with the same ease and effect that you get in XSI- now that is awsome! I just got done animating a spider bot object for a client and after seeing the animation they decided that they wanted the legs to be out further from the body! Nooooooo I cried...but then I remembered the niffty XSI animation offset abilities...man it made my day! With a few extra keys to my offset it was a go go! Move the pinned legs out and blam-O.

While in LW I would have written an expression for this in XSI there was no need...

SheepFactory

01-11-2006, 07:09 PM

OH GOD NOOOOOO!!

Please tell me that you can model in symmettry mode. :cry:

No you cant , and there is no need either. I hated that in lw and hated it in modo too it breaks every 5 minutes :)

Try this alternative:

After you cut half of your head , clone single the other side in place (not in negative x) > symmetrize polygons > move that to the side. now you have a completely welded and instanced model that will reflect every change you make on the base mesh , you can subdivide this seperate from the base mesh and do anything you want on it and it will still update fine. You can also light this model nicely to check your modeling easily. To me that is much much better then symmetry modeling.

Hope this helps.

Sil3

01-11-2006, 07:44 PM

No you cant , and there is no need either. I hated that in lw and hated it in modo too it breaks every 5 minutes :)

If you are used to it for years it DOES matter, trust me ;)

Yap it will break sometime, but the fix was dead easy, a 1 sec operation with an extra script.

Try this alternative:

After you cut half of your head , clone single the other side in place (not in negative x) > symmetrize polygons > move that to the side. now you have a completely welded and instanced model that will reflect every change you make on the base mesh , you can subdivide this seperate from the base mesh and do anything you want on it and it will still update fine. You can also light this model nicely to check your modeling easily. To me that is much much better then symmetry modeling.

Hope this helps.

U can also open the clone/symmetrized mesh in an Object View Window...now if only XSI would allow me to HIDE that clone/sym... on the ALL the REGULAR viewports and only be visible on the Object View Window...yes it would be a cool workflow IMO

Right now it´s too many steps and always another mesh getting into the way...and... i "refuse" to have a Wireframe display Low Rez cage acting on top of the Shaded High Rez clone/sym... that´s Maya awkward and ANCIENT workflow...arghhhh :p

Truth is that Softimage should take a look at fullfiling this feature...it´s been asked since at least 2 versions ago. Some might say they prefer Soft to do other things and this is a waste of time or Soft resources, for them maybe, for me and others it would be a VERY welcomed feature :applause:

SheepFactory

01-11-2006, 07:57 PM

mocaw

01-11-2006, 08:15 PM

Or just change it to a different view type, or another layer...or...or...

Come on here- this is XSI you have to figure there are about six ways to do just about anything!

Sil3

01-11-2006, 08:16 PM

umm sil try this very complicated workaround:

click on the cloned\symmetrized mesh

activate move tool

move it to the side so its not directly beneath the mesh and out of the way.

create a new camera if you like and switch the viewport to that one.

problem solved ;)

so many steps m8 :)

LW:

Click Symmetry on

Modo:

Click Symmetry

Choose Axis

No Symmetrize, move to the side, create a new camera bla bla bla ... (wich by the way is my workflow)... but gets tedious whenever u want symmetry on a new model to do this all over again

Anyway..this is beating on a dead horse, those that never used that get along fine without it, same way that we EX Wavers got along pretty fine without Edges, after all it was only needed to select 2 points to have the similar of an Edge selected... now tell that to someone that had Edges operations all it´s "life"...got it hehehe ;)

I would love to see a REAL Symmetry function in XSI as in LW/Modo, if it happens great, if not i´ll get along with it right as i did until now :)

SheepFactory

01-11-2006, 08:22 PM

The only thing xsi needs is to integrate the spin quads script and have a decent virtual miroor thats about it.

what you call too many steps is like 30 seconds of work :)

but yea i agree , never bothered to use lw. And I disagree that XSI should be more like LW in that regard , i love my edges :p

BlastPhemy

01-11-2006, 08:35 PM

Hey SheepFactory thanks for that workaround i will try it asap.. I just watched a couple of the 3dbuzz videos on modeling and after i started to pick up the interface i began to really fall in love with this program. Modeling in it seems like it is so fluid and even though i have used lightwave for years i think that in about a week or so of messing with XSI i could do some great modeling work in it when i get used to it.. If the symmettry workaround that SheepFactory suggested works for me then i will be ready to roll.. Damn this program is just so fluid and smooth all around.. The tweak tool is insane.. Viewport navigation is insane. it feels to me that XSI isn't as hard to get used to as i previously thought but as modeling is my biggest strength i hope that i can get the symmettry to work right for me..

Again thanks all for the replies and help.. be back to post as soon as i try this method.

j3st3r

01-11-2006, 09:15 PM

If you clone your object, then scale on the negative X axis, it will behave as a virtual mirror in XSI. Or another workaround, which can be easily scriptified...

1. Clone your half object
2. Apply a symmetry operator
3. work on your original half mesh

I think spinquad has been written for XSI. It's really easy to have a script integrated into XSI.

mocaw

01-11-2006, 09:27 PM

Spin away

http://www.xsibase.com/scripts/modeling.php?detail=288

http://www.xsibase.com/scripts/modeling.php?detail=302

Besides, in XSI with the new tweak tool, and the fact that making edges where evey you want without N-Gon fear kind of makes it less needed many times...

If you clone your object, then scale on the negative X axis, it will behave as a virtual mirror in XSI. Or another workaround, which can be easily scriptified...

1. Clone your half object
2. Apply a symmetry operator
3. work on your original half mesh

I think spinquad has been written for XSI. It's really easy to have a script integrated into XSI.

Chris-TC

01-11-2006, 09:39 PM

No Symmetrize, move to the side, create a new camera bla bla bla ... (wich by the way is my workflow)... but gets tedious whenever u want symmetry on a new model to do this all over again

Anyway..this is beating on a dead horse, those that never used that get along fine without it

I don't agree. I've used symmetry modeling in other packages and I really don't miss it.
As a matter of fact, most of time I simply work on just half the model. If I absolutely need to see the other half at the same time, I clone and scale in -x.

Speaking of modeling and the awesomeness of XSI. I've just imported a 3 million poly model from Zbrush into a scene that's pretty heavy already and XSI copes just fine - rendering inside a render region with FG right now. Try that in another package :twisted:

leigh

01-11-2006, 09:51 PM

"I found the navigation system in XSI to be exactly what I always wanted, even though I never knew it. Hold down the s key and use the three mouse buttons to control your navigation modes. Awesome!"

Oh yeah, that's sooooo awesome, way more awesome than holding down ctrl and use the mouse in LW...SCNR....

Your sarcasm makes me think you probably have no idea what he meant. With XSI, you hold down S and each of your mouse buttons does a different kind of navigation (tumble, scrub and zoom). It is MUCH better than the navigation in LW, and Maya for that matter.

As for folks asking how long it took to get up to speed in XSI... for me it took one or two days to get totally comfortable and 100% productive. The first time I ever used XSI was on a History Channel documentary and I was rendering and building shaders within a couple of hours, no problem. It just took that extra day or so to really find everything I needed. I find XSI an incredibly easy and intuitive package to use.

norvman

01-11-2006, 10:11 PM

Leigh I'm gonna be sending you lots o' emails when I get around to attempting to do texturing in XSI...:drool:

xeno3d

01-12-2006, 02:44 AM

Hey Leigh.. you're no longer using Lightwave? Anyways, regardless.. I always found your texturing tuts to be top notch. Thanks. :)

Sbowling

01-13-2006, 02:36 AM

so many steps m8 :)

LW:

Click Symmetry on

Modo:

Click Symmetry

Choose Axis

No Symmetrize, move to the side, create a new camera bla bla bla ... (wich by the way is my workflow)... but gets tedious whenever u want symmetry on a new model to do this all over again

Anyway..this is beating on a dead horse, those that never used that get along fine without it, same way that we EX Wavers got along pretty fine without Edges, after all it was only needed to select 2 points to have the similar of an Edge selected... now tell that to someone that had Edges operations all it´s "life"...got it hehehe ;)

I would love to see a REAL Symmetry function in XSI as in LW/Modo, if it happens great, if not i´ll get along with it right as i did until now :)

Modelign in symmetry is very easy in XSI. As has been stated several times, just clone half your object and scale it to -1. While you will have a seam down the middle of it, it's never been an issue for me. If you need to see the model without the seam, you can just merge them temporarily. I've actually got to the point where I usually will work on half a mesh until it's almost complete then mirrot it to tweak the scale.

Oh, if these few steps are too much for you you could easily write a script for this that would make it one button click, and the symmetry will never break like it does in lightwave/Modo.

fez

01-13-2006, 04:31 AM

Your sarcasm makes me think you probably have no idea what he meant. With XSI, you hold down S and each of your mouse buttons does a different kind of navigation (tumble, scrub and zoom). It is MUCH better than the navigation in LW, and Maya for that matter.

I personally prefer Lightwave/Modo navigation as it allows me to move smoothly between raycast and lasso (ie. raycast with LMB, lasso with the RMB) selection modes. Though I would certainly not mind an "S key" in Modo as well, in addition to the normal navigation tools.

BlastPhemy

01-13-2006, 05:53 AM

I wish it had a symmettry option like that in lightwave or modo. I'm just not used working on half a model.. this program is awesome though.. Lovin it.

thorn3d

01-13-2006, 06:54 AM

Modelign in symmetry is very easy in XSI. As has been stated several times, just clone half your object and scale it to -1. While you will have a seam down the middle of it, it's never been an issue for me.

Is it an issue when you extrude anything along the Z axis and get inner polygons which you have to remove again and again?

IOW, apps that have a true symmetry mode DONT have this problem.

thorn

Sbowling

01-13-2006, 07:14 AM

Is it an issue when you extrude anything along the Z axis and get inner polygons which you have to remove again and again?

IOW, apps that have a true symmetry mode DONT have this problem.

thorn

True, but the two programs that I've used with "true" symmetry have several other problems with their symmetry modes. Either way you are going to have to do some manual tweaking/cleaning up of the model. That being said, I would love to have a true symmetry in XSI, but until they add it, I can live with things as they are.

dwigfor

01-13-2006, 01:44 PM

I posted a script in the scripts thread that helps out with symmetry modelling. Check it out!

SheepFactory

01-13-2006, 03:26 PM

Is it an issue when you extrude anything along the Z axis and get inner polygons which you have to remove again and again?

IOW, apps that have a true symmetry mode DONT have this problem.

thorn

bid deal , how many times you extrude from the seam anyway? open up object view , select the geometry and delete the faces. 5 second process tops. on a complex models those 5 seconds would probably add up to 1 minutes. It took me longer to write this post :)

But agreed that needs to be fixed. Not with symmetry modeling but with a decent virtual mirror.

fez

01-13-2006, 03:33 PM

The seam is visually distracting and will hopefully be addressed by Softimage at some point. I personally prefer Modo type symmetry.

thorn3d

01-13-2006, 04:22 PM

bid deal , how many times you extrude from the seam anyway?

Depending on the model - say, an airplane or helicopter, a car, firearm - quite a bit.

I know all the workarounds people are posting, and it's good that everyone is trying to help everyone out. But i suppose it's just an annoyance with me when i read that sym modeling isnt really a big deal, it's not missed, and HEY doing a negative clone is tres simple and same thing... because it isn't at all.

(BTW Sheep - when are you going to go back to the "old" sheepdog avatar?! LOL)

thorn

MJV

01-13-2006, 05:45 PM

SheepFactory

01-13-2006, 05:53 PM

Depending on the model - say, an airplane or helicopter, a car, firearm - quite a bit.

I know all the workarounds people are posting, and it's good that everyone is trying to help everyone out. But i suppose it's just an annoyance with me when i read that sym modeling isnt really a big deal, it's not missed, and HEY doing a negative clone is tres simple and same thing... because it isn't at all.

(BTW Sheep - when are you going to go back to the "old" sheepdog avatar?! LOL)

thorn

No no i agree that the seam is quite annoying. But like I said a decent virtual mirror would make both you symmetry folks and us happy. Hope it will be there in the next version. meanwhile mindwork tools had a virtual mirror thing , which i never tried but might be worth a look if it is free. Anybody has the link?

(i lost the old avatar pic and got stuck with this :( )

BlastPhemy

01-13-2006, 07:44 PM

Hey Sheep are you referring to XSI - MindthinkTools? or is it Mindworks? i did a search for mindwork and never found any info.

leigh

01-13-2006, 08:43 PM

dwigfor

01-13-2006, 09:20 PM

Leigh, what happens if you want to duplicate/inset a polygon? Sym Map doesn't get updated...

thorn3d

01-13-2006, 09:23 PM

I'm a little confused as to why people are saying you cannot model with symmetry in XSI. I've never had a problem modelling with a symmetry map :shrug:

Or am I mistaken in my interpretation of the discussion?

When modeling with symmetry in 3dsmax, c4d, (possibly others), you apply a modifier which will create a virtual mirror of your object. There are 2 advantages: there are no seams along the 0/0 axis, and ANY operation you do on your object will be mirrored.

In XSI, you're left either creating a clone (with a seam, and extrusion problems along that seam), or using Sym modeling mode - which doesn't respect any changes to topology (bevels, extrusions, adding/deleting components).

thorn

SheepFactory

01-13-2006, 09:32 PM

Hey Sheep are you referring to XSI - MindthinkTools? or is it Mindworks? i did a search for mindwork and never found any info.

My bad , you are correct. Mindthinktools is what i meant to say. it wasnt in mindthink tools but it was on helges site as a free script. I lost the link to his site though.

leigh

01-13-2006, 09:44 PM

Oh right, silly me. Thanks for the clarification, guys :)

BlastPhemy

01-13-2006, 11:24 PM

http://www.mindthink.de/
that is the site of Mindthink tools or helges site, but u have to register

mocaw

01-14-2006, 12:04 AM

He's got a point! That's why LW is where it's at...people saying things are 100% fine when they aren't. Still symmetry never worked all that well for me in LW...but yes XSI should have a more robust version...

Anyone in their right mind would prefer to have a seamless symmetry modeling mode. I always find it really unfortunate when people make absurd allowances and justifications for something that there is really no excuse for, because it just lessons the likelihood that the issue will be properly addressed in a timely manner.

norvman

01-14-2006, 12:52 AM

He's got a point! That's why LW is where it's at...people saying things are 100% fine when they aren't

I have to second that opinion...

one of the reasons (but not the only reason....) LW Character Animation tools stink so bad compared to other packages... is simply because every time some one brings up the subject and starts naming competing software they get ousted off of the boards that Newtek claims they use to 'lissen' to their customers by...

There are those LW loyalist that will argue simply to argue that the Character Animation tools are fine and work great ... and they have never had any problem with them... yet when you start looking around at the really good animators... (those with animation that looks great ....) none of those guys are using strait lightwave to do it in...
Theyv'e got Messiah or Motion Desinener..... or XSI .....

I consister myself ... at least in recient times... a big supporter (read loyalist, fanboy, what ever you wana call it...) of LW...

Once I desided I was going to do some Character Animation using LW ....
2 solid years of constantly messing with it trying to get something desent out of it...
Finally a couple of the really good LW CAs convinced me to try the XSI demo and mess with the Rigging tools... now I know better....

The old saying goes that the squeeky wheel gets the grease....

But if you follow a policy where you reject all the squeeky wheels noise...
A policy where you throw that wheel in the river and keep on driving without it...
Well pretty soon your pushing a slead....

Which might last a little while ...

until the snow melts ...

:shrug:

thorn3d

01-14-2006, 12:53 AM

The fact it doesn't always work in Lightwave (note: I've never used LW, just referring to earlier comments) has no bearing on XSI. I've found it almost always works well in 3dsmax, and it always worked well in Cinema4D.

FWIW, i found Silo's implementation to be a joke. Haven't tried Modo.

My point is: XSI does a lot of things that dont work that well in other applications... so logic dictates that the robustnest of other application's features has no relation to whether such a feature could be good in XSI.

Like Michael said, if too many people say the 70% work-arounds are "ok", then there's little chance Soft would consider it a feature worth adding. I'm quite sure that the minds that produced GATOR are capable of mirroring a poly mesh... so if you dont need mirroring - great, but pls dont minimize the issue by saying it's a minor and/or unreliable feature in other apps.

thorn

norvman

01-14-2006, 01:11 AM

Like Michael said, if too many people say the 70% work-arounds are "ok", then there's little chance Soft would consider it a feature worth adding. I'm quite sure that the minds that produced GATOR are capable of mirroring a poly mesh...

agreed...

Perhaps it's time for a group of us to take this to the ...

"XSI requested features" forum...

being still to new to XSI..... and.... it's forums..... I'm not sure where that is...

Any suggestions?

p.s..... (is this going to get me band from XSI-base ferever or anything like that?) :rolleyes:

Sbowling

01-14-2006, 10:59 AM

Anyone in their right mind would prefer to have a seamless symmetry modeling mode. I always find it really unfortunate when people make absurd allowances and justifications for something that there is really no excuse for, because it just lessons the likelihood that the issue will be properly addressed in a timely manner.

I'm not disagreeing with that. I think true symmetry would be great if it doesn't break like in Modo/LightWave. I just don't feel that the current work around is as big of a problem as some are making it out to be. In fact the clone/scale -1 thing works better than the symmetry in Lightwave/modo in most cases. I found modelling in one app and animating in another app to be a much bigger headache than having to occasionally do a bit of cleanup work when I have to extrude along the axis that the seam is on. It beats the hell out of spending a few hours modelling a character and then realizing that the symmetry was screwed up and all the edits on one side of a character don't match all the edits on the other side of a character.

I completely agree with Moccaw, that saying things are fine when they are not can lead to things being ignored like they were in lightwave and I definitely don't want to see that again.

yog

01-14-2006, 11:20 AM

Perhaps it's time for a group of us to take this to the ...

"XSI requested features" forum...
being still to new to XSI..... and.... it's forums..... I'm not sure where that is...

Any suggestions?You could always try suggesting this to Softimage directly (http://www.softimage.com/Support/XSI/TechnicalSupport/CS/default.htm). Unlike some companies, where making a feature request is like whispering into a black hole, every time I have contacted Softimage with a problem (usually turned out to be user error :rolleyes:) or a feature suggestion I have always recieved a personal e-mail response, with reference number, and usually with a discussion or suggestion about what I had submitted.
It really fosters a sence that Softimage listen to their customers.

T4D

01-14-2006, 11:23 AM

symmetry in XSI is a very minor negative issue for me it doesn't really register
Due to the way Lightwave and Modo way of doing it, it breaks and both LW and Modo Break often, BUT You will never have symmetry break the way XSI have designed it.

and if we are talking negative points ,..
we could write pages on lightwave and we all would agree on them Adn Modo is only half finished, Yet the 2 or 3 negtive points raised so far on XSI side.
we can stand back and see the way it is ( just like symmetry ) and see it has merits and there's just no reason to really bitch about it,
If you have a open User POV on these things, it's something you can learn to work with and get bonus to that with that workflow.

XSI is just a very well designed package we all can agree on that :bounce:

IMO Stu and Allen left Newtek to write a new package for a good reason and those guy would know when to leave.. ( pity we stuck around for so long ) BUT they are still only half way there,.. Animation is a year or 2 away and XSI is working right here, right now, :applause:

I'm in the modo boat too I do enjoy modeling in Modo and I'm Hoping for good painting tools but a great render with no animation import or other motion is abit of a 3 legged horse ............pretty useless of me anyway :cry:

norvman

01-14-2006, 05:01 PM

XSI is just a very well designed package we all can agree on that

I certainly will agree on that...

My wife and I have been through some pretty tough financial times of the past couple of years... I don't have enough money to waste on programs that fit into my work flow and don't somehow earn me some money in the end...

I am finding XSI is helping get there... easily...
When something is easy to do that means you can do it faster...
Time is money...

Yah the Symetry thing is really not a big one for me either...
It was a bit confusing at first but now that I understand how to make it work the XSI way it's not so bad...
but it could still be improved....
As to weither I can model quicker in LW or XSI in symetery mode....
hummm for me... the jury is still out...
I"m not really use to modeling in XSI like I am in Wave...
Even with Waves clunkyness...
getting use to a mode of working is a bigg deal...
and takes some practice time...

You could always try suggesting this to Softimage directly (http://www.softimage.com/Support/XSI/TechnicalSupport/CS/default.htm)

There yah go thorn3d... if enough of us request it then we might can change the % a bit

If they are willing to lissen to there customers then that makes XSI an even better sofware without even having to write anymore code... :love:

dwigfor

01-15-2006, 05:29 AM

Only thing I miss from LW was bandsawpro. It was nice an easy to apply 5% and 95% slices to subdivided polys. Rather than get it exact, I've just used the ] key to slice each edge. In the end, it looks fine, and is way fast.

I wish I could use the ] key on the tops of cylinders. I need to select the ring of edges and right click/split edges. Is that the fastest way to add a ring at the top? Or should I just be setting 2 subds for the top (when I create the cyl) and scale it?

leigh

01-15-2006, 06:46 AM

Only thing I miss from LW was bandsawpro. It was nice an easy to apply 5% and 95% slices to subdivided polys.

Use the Split Edge tool. It's pretty much almost exactly the same thing, the only difference is that you select edge rings, not polygons.

ThE_JacO

01-15-2006, 07:27 AM

split edge with split control adds the numeric control if you need it.
and don't forget to always try modifier keys with tools that have visual feedback like add edge, splits etc, as modifiers add convenient options like adding exactly in the middle of an edge and so on.

TimMehmet

01-15-2006, 09:39 AM

heh this and the other thread has turned into quite a bitching match :p
But recently I decided to try XSI5 from a recommendation, and really I fell in love with it instantly. It may sound funny but I find the modeling brilliant! tweak + proportional is all ya need in my books, plus an add edges that really works :). I use instancing for symmetry until Im totaly happy with the model and then just merge the mesh together, it actually has more benefits that way imo.. although I may be missing something but I cant quite get the bandsaw technique in XSI* to work so thats the only niggle atm, I also didnt realise how much manipulators were usefull until I actually used them too.
Iv only been dabbling with shading and animting a bit, but already with a bit of time you can see results you expect.With that all said, I dont think Lightwave is crap, I still enjoy the program and it honestly hasnt hinderd me in any way (well I dont do much complicated stuff to be honst), I just find XSI to be quicker and more.. together in general.

mocaw

01-15-2006, 02:54 PM

I don't care for bandsawpro anymore. In XSI if you're doing 95% and 5% bandsawpro slices you're probably trying to replicate the LW way of making hard edges- with more geometry. Instead try edge weighting combined with the bevel tool to get those micro bevels and edges on "hard" sub patched geometry. It's less geometry that is simpler to work with. That's the way it should be IMHO.

Chris-TC

01-15-2006, 05:10 PM

I wish I could use the ] key on the tops of cylinders. I need to select the ring of edges and right click/split edges. Is that the fastest way to add a ring at the top? Or should I just be setting 2 subds for the top (when I create the cyl) and scale it?

The fastest way to do it is to press I, raycast the edges and hit Shift+D. This will add an edge loop directly in the middle, as if you had set 2 subdivisions for the cylinder to begin with.
If you need more control over the placement, you can always use the Split edges with split control as mentioned above. Personally, I love this command because it lets you place your edge splits very accurately.

norvman

01-15-2006, 06:25 PM

I have to claim that I don't miss bandsaw either... once I understood all things I could do with edge tools...

theres alot of LW modeling tools that are work arounds for not having edge tools in the first place...

I really think the workflow is better in modeling when you can manipulate the edges in the way I have been experimenting with XSI modeling... (even though I came over to XSI for the Character Animation capablities...) I'm starting to like XSI's modeling tools more and more...

at least I definately like using edges... not just for cuting and sawing but also for grabing and translating and rotating around to get the model right...

dwigfor

01-16-2006, 12:01 AM

I've started using edge crease. I could never get that good results with it in LW, so I had resisted it. Really like it in XSI. However, the one thing where I still need to do my bandsaw operations is on cylinders. If I use edge crease, it doesn't look as good..

I usually use split (with split control), but it was still easier with bandsaw.. If you wanted it exact. You'd need to split it in half, and... Actually, I've got another question.. How does it determine which way is 0%, and which way is 100%? Is it clockwise vs counterclockwise selection?

So, rather than worry about doing all that, I usually just use ] and keep working. :)

Thanks for the shift-d tip. I'll try to remember that..

mocaw

01-16-2006, 12:14 AM

What's wrong with the creases? Are you trying to get those nice bevels in? Why not just do a multi-devided bevel and crease the two outside edges and not the ones inbetween? Please post an image of the differences you're experiencing because I'd like to help or at least agree.
I've started using edge crease. I could never get that good results with it in LW, so I had resisted it. Really like it in XSI. However, the one thing where I still need to do my bandsaw operations is on cylinders. If I use edge crease, it doesn't look as good..

I usually use split (with split control), but it was still easier with bandsaw.. If you wanted it exact. You'd need to split it in half, and... Actually, I've got another question.. How does it determine which way is 0%, and which way is 100%? Is it clockwise vs counterclockwise selection?

So, rather than worry about doing all that, I usually just use ] and keep working. :)

Thanks for the shift-d tip. I'll try to remember that..

norvman

01-16-2006, 11:59 PM

the one thing where I still need to do my bandsaw operations is on cylinders. If I use edge crease, it doesn't look as good..

have to agree with Mocaw...

use Modify>Component>MarkHardEge/Vertex...
then use bevel
or pick polys and Ctrl D
if it doesn't look good after that... hit '+' key to add more SubD resolution...

:beer:

then drink lots o' beer...

adrencg

06-23-2006, 06:30 PM

Plus you have spline IK & the IK system in XSI Is Amazing you have to see it
IKFK blending to a degree that makes IKB look like a crap toy for kids
Dynamic bones that Work in real time no cal time ( auto ears, tails fat wobble - No setup time just draw the bones and tell XSI what it is )

I haven't seen any feature resembling Dynamic Bones in XSI. How would this be done?

T4D

06-24-2006, 03:57 AM

I haven't seen any feature resembling Dynamic Bones in XSI. How would this be done?

XSi isn't limited to only Bones to drive deformation
you can uses anything and attach it to your mesh with Envelopes

IF you want to see the Dynamic's in XSI try this

Draw a curve Menu Animate -> Curve
then with the curve selected Goto Skeleton -> Create Tail

now once it's been created, select the base of the tail and move or rotate it :eek:
I think you'll be impressed real time Dynamic's, No Cal time :thumbsup:
makes LW's IKB look pretty lame really..
that is only the start of what you can do in XSI :buttrock:

Roux

06-24-2006, 02:12 PM

Hi Guys!
For a while I had my own conspiracy theory that Aliens were abducting you all in order to learn the secrest of LW dynamics. One by one you seemed to vanish from the old forums. Now I know the truth!
I am waiting for my copy of XSI ess having not even tested it out but I must say this thread has really made me feel a lot better about that purchase.
Sadly LW 9 has some improvements but compared to what is out there, it really is about two versions behind.
It is true that the renderer is faster - my dual xeon 3.2 4 GB Ram can now render out 3.5 million polys at HD res in about 6 minutes with 12 shadow casting lights, reflections, fog etc, I still cant effectively bake a rad or gi solution to save myself. Deformations like SBD RBD Cloth are fine as long as you don't need to do something on top of that deformation. Nodal looks to add a lot of options to texturing with AMB OC, SSS, oren nayer....blah blah vectors etc but it also slows the renders down to a crawl in my limited experience. Volumetrics still suck. All quite disappointing really.
XSI here I come.
I'm sure I will continue to use LW just like I still pick up a pencil and sketch pad from time to time - whatever works the easiest for the outcome needed.:)

adrencg

06-24-2006, 03:26 PM

XSi isn't limited to only Bones to drive deformation
you can uses anything and attach it to your mesh with Envelopes

IF you want to see the Dynamic's in XSI try this

Draw a curve Menu Animate -> Curve
then with the curve selected Goto Skeleton -> Create Tail

now once it's been created, select the base of the tail and move or rotate it :eek:
I think you'll be impressed real time Dynamic's, No Cal time :thumbsup:
makes LW's IKB look pretty lame really..
that is only the start of what you can do in XSI :buttrock:

I just tried that....Holy Crap

mocaw

06-25-2006, 04:04 PM

Oh man...IKB...10 sec with the XSI default rigs makes you cry just thinking about all those poor lost IKB souls...

Nemoid

06-28-2006, 08:30 AM

never worked with XSI so far, however i really have to try that one!

virtual mirror or good working simmetry modelling would be great.

in Lw i usually model with box modelling techniques, and one of the main points of using simmetry modelling against instance mirrored on x= -1 is that i can model without a centerline at all.
this is particulary good for head modelling.box modelling with spinquad technique.

i then insert a centerline with bandsaw afterwards, when i need it to complete the rest of the body.

after some years,sorry, but i literally hate when, modelling with only one half of the model, u extrude polygons for mouth area and end up with extra polygons you have to erase.
Men this suck for character modelling!! :D

instance modelling could be good , but should have locked points on centerline, no extra points at center line too, and a script allowing you to merge both sides into one piece of geometry when finished. :)

ThE_JacO

06-28-2006, 08:57 AM

after some years,sorry, but i literally hate when, modelling with only one half of the model, u extrude polygons for mouth area and end up with extra polygons you have to erase.
Men this suck for character modelling!! :D

if you duplicate/extrude the edges, and not the polygons, you don't end up with polys to delete.
if you've never used a modeller with edges extensively then it's a good moment to try, and to refresh your techniques and workflow to something post 1997 :)

some of the issues you might, or might not, have, are completely moot when you put them in a different context. A different app -is- a different context.

daviddrbal

06-28-2006, 09:04 AM

instance modelling could be good , but should have locked points on centerline, no extra points at center line too, and a script allowing you to merge both sides into one piece of geometry when finished. :)

You can achieve this in simple way.
Clone the mesh, then duplicate symetry on that cloned mesh. You then work with original mesh and all is updated in real time on that clone in symmetry. after you finish, just freeze the clone and you done .))

Nemoid

06-28-2006, 09:39 AM

if you duplicate/extrude the edges, and not the polygons, you don't end up with polys to delete.
if you've never used a modeller with edges extensively then it's a good moment to try, and to refresh your techniques and workflow to something post 1997 :)

some of the issues you might, or might not, have, are completely moot when you put them in a different context. A different app -is- a different context.

LOL maybe youre right. i tried maya, a bit, Hexagon and no XSI for now. but i still like to work 1997, extrude polygons for mouth, even because i can inset and move them inside, tweak the shape of extrusion with drag and move forward constructing all inner mouth and throat if i want with not so many clicks. :)

however, true that i could work into another way too, if needed. :)

softdistortion

06-28-2006, 11:42 AM

hmmmm...been looking at going LW>XSI myself lately...never expected to see so many familiar faces over here!
Cool :bounce:

LightWuv

07-11-2006, 10:31 PM

I'm another LW user considering getting either XSI Foundation or Messiah:Studio Workstation for character animation.

XSI Foundation, as far as I've been able to find out, does not seem to be updatable across full point versions (XSI:F 5.x to 6.x, say). So if I buy XSI:F now I suppose I would need to re-purchase if I want the next full point version. Things may change (and I may have misunderstood), but I'm suspecting that staying current will probably prove more expensive if I go the XSI:F route.

My impressions of the various comparisons made on this forum, in short:

Messiah:Studio - sports the speedier OpenGL and maybe workflow, underhyped, cheaper, but more limited, more bugs (but not many), small development team, users have wondered in the past if they will survive (harsh I know, but not my own opinion here) (more of a freelancer tool?)

XSI:F - all-in-one software, more functionality, less bugs (but not bug free), still fast, overhyped, but more expensive, steeper learning curve, and of course it's not XSI:The Complete Version (more of a studio tool?)

XSI seems to me like a Lightwave replacement, Messiah:Studio like a Lightwave partner.

And so begins the demo downloading. I'm on a 3Ghz HT P4 2GB RAM desktop and a 1.6Ghz P4m 512MB RAM laptop, and won't be buying a new workstation until next year, so performance on these two computers does matter for me.

No purchase until after SIGGRAPH in any case, though :)

mocaw

07-12-2006, 03:34 PM

Over priced? Over hyped? What are you expecting for your money?

Let's see...hmmm I payed how much for my LW upgrade...and with FND and Bhairy for $580 I'm able to do way more than I can with LW. Overhyped? Have you animated in it yet...maybe seen some of the production materials? Try doing some basic expressions or linking maybe...

I've been using FND now for over a year- and each day I find myself using a new-to-me feature that, while not a show stopper, is a workflow enhancer. Heck even the way something as simple as how marking sets work in XSI is amazing.

Emmanuel

07-12-2006, 03:52 PM

I am taking that XSI course at uni, and one thing that was frightening me before was that I thought I could only use the nodal texturing/rendertree for surfacing.
When the tutor showed us that I can texture things "normally", like in LW for example, with ramps, images, procedurals in the normal material properties, I was sighing relieved ;)

LightWuv

07-12-2006, 07:54 PM

mocaw: "Over priced? Over hyped? What are you expecting for your money?"

I never wrote overpriced.

mocaw: "Overhyped? Have you animated in it yet...maybe seen some of the production materials? Try doing some basic expressions or linking maybe..."

I wrote that Messiah to me seems underhyped, and that XSI to me seems overhyped. In a paragraph called "My impressions of the various comparisons made on this forum". It was about my impressions of the comparisons being made in this thread and others. :)

What I meant by that was to comment on how people write about these programs. I've read a lot of threads, and although most posts and replies are down-to-earth there are some fanboys out there, for all programs I suppose.

In other words, I get the feeling that regardless of software quality Messiah tends to get a little more flak than neutral treatment would entail. Likewise, but with a plus sign; XSI.

It should be quite clear from reading my post that I was in no position to comment on the actual programs (so that should answer you questions!). The clue is near the end of the post. Where I start downloading the demos/trials.

I'm still checking them out :)

Nemoid

07-14-2006, 07:57 PM

mocaw

07-16-2006, 06:08 PM

however, i, like this thread i think ex Lwvers (or Lw+ XSI users) could submit some great feature requests to Avid, like Virtual mirror features, and maybe (if necessary)a layered shading editor for basic tasks and more.

But there is a layered system...but why would you need it for basic tasks? I'm all for mirroring, as long as it works way better than LW's. At least with the clone method it works every time and dosen't break...

T4D

07-17-2006, 02:12 AM

however, i, like this thread i think ex Lwvers (or Lw+ XSI users) could submit some great feature requests to Avid, like Virtual mirror features, and maybe (if necessary)a layered shading editor for basic tasks and more.

it doesn't take long to see the Avid Logic if your stuck with Newtek logic in your head you'll may have trouble.
But once you see the one of the many different ways to do it in XSI, I can't see a need to email Avid for anything. ( learning the software's strengths ad weakess is quicker then waiting for Features or workflow changes from the developer. ) I got that from my LW days

the only thing i remember thinking Man " Where is this " :argh:
was Spinquad to get good polygon flow, Well that was way back with XSI 4.0, Mindthink released the plugins for free to do Spinquad and afew other things, and in XSI 5.0 those Mindthink tools were taken into the main package now everyone gets them. :applause:
Avid Are as professional as you can get. I'm sure there's Negative stories but far FAR less then other Software developers.

dhath45

07-17-2006, 02:24 PM

I've been using Lightwave since version 5.5. My work until a couple years ago was printwork, where it didn't really matter what kind of animation was available. It was only when I started to work on massive scenes, in excess of a million polygons, where I started having problems with Lightwave (around version 7.5), and I started looking for alternatives and settled on Softimage XSI. Now that I've started animating, I can not look at Lightwave in the same way, for animation, Softimage simply blows Lightwave away. There are very few issues I need Lightwave for now, in my work. Softimage handles much larger datasets, and can animate them in an efficiency that Lightwave has yet to obtain. Just my 2 cents.

mocaw

07-17-2006, 05:26 PM

I think many LWer's look at a package simply as nice renders, basic effects, and modeling. Unfortunatly that leaves out quite a bit of 3D (and some of the most important parts). Now that I've had to start doing more animation I too can't look back to LW for much except for a few print renders via Fprime done here and there.

But things like overrides and render passes just aren't sexy topics with the standard LW crowd...so who knows how long it will be for that package to catch up.

chikega

07-20-2006, 12:54 AM

Wow, I can't believe I just spent two hours reading this entire thread! Very engaging. I too am on that ferry boat by the name of "Transition".

I've been doing 3d since 1991 - starting with Macromodel, Strata then got a job using Softimage3d for a year in 1995. I remember it costing $25k running on an Indigo 2Extreme. Couldn't afford it for home use - so, I bought Impulse Imagine. I can't believe I stuck it out with Imagine until 1997 when it finally went under. Got into LW - got frustrated with it because of the lack of procedural textures and it was way more expensive than Imagine. Worley wrote the original Essence Textures for Imagine by the way. Got Max for a couple years - couldn't take the workflow anymore. Upgraded LW. Got frustrated - couldn't extrude a poly along a spline without lining it up by hand. Why isn't this automatic? Got Rhino3d - learned Nurbs. Got C4d in 1999, better extrude functions than LW. Liked BP. Kept LW. I remember my friend complaining about the lack of updates for Softimage3d. Glad I wasn't in his shoes - he spent $14k on it. Kept LW. My friend showed me XSI 1.0 and my jaw hit the floor when he showed me that you can animate poly extrusions. Got frustrated with the delay in updates with LW. He didn't envy my position. I couldn't afford XSI. Got really pissed when NT charged my credit card 6mo before the release of 8.0. Started to mess around with other apps. G2 came out ... felt better about LW. Silo came out - nice worklfow. Bought the update to C4d. Messed with messiah - wow, so easy to setup. Why isn't LW like this? Got frustrated with LW. FPrime came out - felt better about LW. Became a betatester for messiah's renderer. Kept LW. NT's team splits. Bought modo - feels like what LW should have been. Very dissapointed in LW's progress. The big boys started slashing prices. Bought XSI FND - wow. Got caught up in the Fprime rush - kept LW.

Sorry, had to get that off my chest. I feel like I'm in detox. I kept using LW because I was so used to it's workflow and quirks not to mention all the damn plugins I bought. And now it's 2006 ... my how time flies ... my niece is 21yrs old now and in her second year of college. I feel spread thin ... yes. ... like butter on toast. I've been using so many apps for so long ... I'm ready to settle with just one (or two). This thread has helped me make up my mind. LW 9 is my last upgrade - I just don't see them catching up anymore. Need to break out my 3dtutorial videos that I bought last year. Let's see if XSI 6 is released for Siggraph. If not, I'll get FND 5.x.

Nemoid

07-20-2006, 07:47 AM

it doesn't take long to see the Avid Logic if your stuck with Newtek logic in your head you'll may have trouble.
But once you see the one of the many different ways to do it in XSI, I can't see a need to email Avid for anything. ( learning the software's strengths ad weakess is quicker then waiting for Features or workflow changes from the developer. ) I got that from my LW days

the only thing i remember thinking Man " Where is this " :argh:
was Spinquad to get good polygon flow, Well that was way back with XSI 4.0, Mindthink released the plugins for free to do Spinquad and afew other things, and in XSI 5.0 those Mindthink tools were taken into the main package now everyone gets them. :applause:
Avid Are as professional as you can get. I'm sure there's Negative stories but far FAR less then other Software developers.

yeah actually i'm finding XSI to be efficient and good.

was talking about simmetry modelling (or even better virtual mirror) because I think this is a feature that speeds up many things in modelling for me.
however i didn't had so much problems in modelling in XSI.

I also like the render region thingy.
its may be not Fprime, but definitely is waay better than Viper. it works very well.

i'll look on all free plugs like spinquad (if its not in 5.0, btw) and i'm digging in the software more and more.

also, i have to say, the documentation for basic starters is good, Avid provides good materials to learn the app for sure.

also, sorry to ask this in this thread :

Spinquad apart, could you list some useful plugins for XSI 5.0 ?
i've seen lots of them for previous versions and saw some great ones on the related thread here in CGtalk, but a list made from a more experienced user would make my life easier. thanx in advance!