gristle
06-21-2005, 12:28 PM
Check this out. PCI Express cards for extra floating point processing.
http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050620_114721.html
http://www.tomshardware.com/hardnews/20050620_114721.html
View Full Version : Clearspeed Co-processor
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Bliz
06-21-2005, 01:03 PM
Sounds good to me. I like the way combining 96 cores running at a slow 250Mhz in one die ends up having better floating point performance than a dual core speed king chip.
It must be like having a whole renderfarm from the late 90's in your machine =]-
It must be like having a whole renderfarm from the late 90's in your machine =]-
richcz3
06-21-2005, 02:30 PM
I don't quite see this being of benefit for the small biz operator or 3D enthusiasts market for quite some time. Reference the "Ye old workstation", applies if I worked at Los Alamos maybe.
"5-10% increase in perfomance" - and - "declined to comment on price" "Competitive pricing" and "negligible investment for corporations" :eek:
And then - "The question however remains who the competitors of the CSX600 in fact are. If the company considers traditional high end workstations as competition, then such boards may become available in the low four-figure range. If the competition are other revival workstations such as Orion Multisystems' computers than such cards are unlikely to be priced below $10,000."
"5-10% increase in perfomance" - and - "declined to comment on price" "Competitive pricing" and "negligible investment for corporations" :eek:
And then - "The question however remains who the competitors of the CSX600 in fact are. If the company considers traditional high end workstations as competition, then such boards may become available in the low four-figure range. If the competition are other revival workstations such as Orion Multisystems' computers than such cards are unlikely to be priced below $10,000."
Jeff Lew
06-21-2005, 05:18 PM
If this thing is around $2k, I'd definitely get 1 or 2. I just hope it works with the majority of content creation software out there.
Jeff
Jeff
mummey
06-21-2005, 07:19 PM
If this thing is around $2k, I'd definitely get 1 or 2. I just hope it works with the majority of content creation software out there.
Jeff
Maybe you should figure out what kind of benefit it gives you before making any statements like that.
Jeff
Maybe you should figure out what kind of benefit it gives you before making any statements like that.
kiaran
06-21-2005, 07:57 PM
"5-10% increase in perfomance"
Try reading the article again. It said 5 to 10 times the performance, not percent. Big difference.
... applications can gain about 5x to 10x in speed ...
Maybe you should figure out what kind of benefit it gives you before making any statements like that.
Maybe you should figure out how to use your brain before your mouth. His post clearly says that his intent to purchase a card would be based on their performace in a content creation application. :rolleyes:
Try reading the article again. It said 5 to 10 times the performance, not percent. Big difference.
... applications can gain about 5x to 10x in speed ...
Maybe you should figure out what kind of benefit it gives you before making any statements like that.
Maybe you should figure out how to use your brain before your mouth. His post clearly says that his intent to purchase a card would be based on their performace in a content creation application. :rolleyes:
emptyvoxel
06-21-2005, 08:00 PM
I don't quite see this being of benefit for the small biz operator or 3D enthusiasts market for quite some time. Reference the "Ye old workstation", applies if I worked at Los Alamos maybe.
"5-10% increase in perfomance" - and - "declined to comment on price" "Competitive pricing" and "negligible investment for corporations" :eek:
And then - "The question however remains who the competitors of the CSX600 in fact are. If the company considers traditional high end workstations as competition, then such boards may become available in the low four-figure range. If the competition are other revival workstations such as Orion Multisystems' computers than such cards are unlikely to be priced below $10,000."
It was actually a 5x - 10x increase in speed, supposedly.
"5-10% increase in perfomance" - and - "declined to comment on price" "Competitive pricing" and "negligible investment for corporations" :eek:
And then - "The question however remains who the competitors of the CSX600 in fact are. If the company considers traditional high end workstations as competition, then such boards may become available in the low four-figure range. If the competition are other revival workstations such as Orion Multisystems' computers than such cards are unlikely to be priced below $10,000."
It was actually a 5x - 10x increase in speed, supposedly.
Jeff Lew
06-21-2005, 08:09 PM
Maybe you should figure out what kind of benefit it gives you before making any statements like that.
If it does what it says:
According to Clearspeed, enthusiasts can also take advantage of the added performance, especially with professional audio and precision rendering software. Per card, such applications can gain about 5x to 10x in speed, the company said.
then I'll buy 1 or 2. What's the big deal about my statement? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to buy this card.
Jeff
If it does what it says:
According to Clearspeed, enthusiasts can also take advantage of the added performance, especially with professional audio and precision rendering software. Per card, such applications can gain about 5x to 10x in speed, the company said.
then I'll buy 1 or 2. What's the big deal about my statement? I'm sure I'm not the only one who would like to buy this card.
Jeff
richcz3
06-21-2005, 08:57 PM
Argh....My error folks on the % not X performance. Thanks for catching that. Not good to spread disinformation.
All the other aspects were copied and pasted. That being noted, that hardware is nowhere near my price range.
All the other aspects were copied and pasted. That being noted, that hardware is nowhere near my price range.
Coliba
06-21-2005, 09:11 PM
50 gflops peak? what is the peak rating of say a dual 3ghz xeon system? Around 10? Just trying to figure out at which price this card makes a good investment.
leuey
06-21-2005, 10:18 PM
yeah - i want to keep my eye on this. The question I have is the performance transparent or do apps have to be re-compiled or coded in such a way to take advantage of these cards (and how much extra memory do you have to buy?)
-Greg
-Greg
Coliba
06-21-2005, 10:29 PM
According to the article, all you need to do is connect the card, no recompiling necessary....sounds a bit too good to be true but it would make these cards a much more valuable investment.
Gentrifier
06-21-2005, 10:38 PM
Amazingly, the 5x to 10x speed improvement is per card installed. The possibilities for the small multimedia company seem fantastic. While the card might pay for itself in short order, the possibility of a price at $10K+ (based on the article author's comparison with competitor's products) would make it tough to swallow for the general enthusiast.
Definitely something to look into if ever I go solo.
Definitely something to look into if ever I go solo.
Jeff Lew
06-21-2005, 11:32 PM
Here's another article about ClearSpeed:
http://www.amdzone.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=3122&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
They talk about a bunch of scientific software that it works with already, but no mention of any 3d software.
Yeah, at $10k, forget even thinking about it, but at $2k-$3k, that's a different story. Now I wonder if those 96 cores appear as 1 big core or 96 seperate cores? It might be an issue with render licenses.
Jeff
http://www.amdzone.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=3122&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0
They talk about a bunch of scientific software that it works with already, but no mention of any 3d software.
Yeah, at $10k, forget even thinking about it, but at $2k-$3k, that's a different story. Now I wonder if those 96 cores appear as 1 big core or 96 seperate cores? It might be an issue with render licenses.
Jeff
mummey
06-21-2005, 11:36 PM
Maybe you should figure out how to use your brain before your mouth. His post clearly says that his intent to purchase a card would be based on their performace in a content creation application. :rolleyes:
Maybe YOU should hesitate before hitting the reply button. The original poster was talking about buying one or two based SOLELY on a company's PR. That would be like buying one or two Phantoms from Infinium Labs because they say they're good consoles.
My point was that you should see a product in action before you start spouting that you are going to go buy some. You however seem to have no point other than to annoy me. :shrug:
Maybe YOU should hesitate before hitting the reply button. The original poster was talking about buying one or two based SOLELY on a company's PR. That would be like buying one or two Phantoms from Infinium Labs because they say they're good consoles.
My point was that you should see a product in action before you start spouting that you are going to go buy some. You however seem to have no point other than to annoy me. :shrug:
Lorecanth
06-21-2005, 11:55 PM
My point was that you should see a product in action before you start spouting that you are going to go buy some. You however seem to have no point other than to annoy me. :shrug:
and maybe an intern should be more careful of what they say when they have their name attached. A lot of people read these forums.
and maybe an intern should be more careful of what they say when they have their name attached. A lot of people read these forums.
kiaran
06-22-2005, 12:18 AM
My point was that you should see a product in action before you start spouting that you are going to go buy some.
Yes, reacting to a news article (not a press release btw) by saying that you are interested in their product is so absurd! I can't believe Jeff Lew was audacious enough to consider gracing us with his lowly opinion. After all, he's not responsible for Killer Bean. *insert sarcastic grin*
Anyway, back on topic...
Yes, reacting to a news article (not a press release btw) by saying that you are interested in their product is so absurd! I can't believe Jeff Lew was audacious enough to consider gracing us with his lowly opinion. After all, he's not responsible for Killer Bean. *insert sarcastic grin*
Anyway, back on topic...
Jeff Lew
06-22-2005, 12:38 AM
Thanks for your defense Kiaran. :)
Now let's all bring this back on topic. I'm very interested in a card like this especially if it can take the place of a small renderfarm. There are lots of pluses to this, like less power usage and less machine noise. I would be very interested if the Maxwell Renderer took advantage of this card...
Jeff
Now let's all bring this back on topic. I'm very interested in a card like this especially if it can take the place of a small renderfarm. There are lots of pluses to this, like less power usage and less machine noise. I would be very interested if the Maxwell Renderer took advantage of this card...
Jeff
DangerAhead
06-22-2005, 12:51 AM
Except the article says the cards are near $10K per card. Did I read that right?
In which case, I'd say, they're not going to be very useful, except that you can render much faster per CPU license and thereby get more out of each Render license.
Hell who knows anymore.
In which case, I'd say, they're not going to be very useful, except that you can render much faster per CPU license and thereby get more out of each Render license.
Hell who knows anymore.
leuey
06-22-2005, 01:07 AM
The $10K per card was theorizing - not an official price. I'm sure they'll take a look at the comparative computing speed in duel core opterons or whatever and try to price competatively.
I wonder if the processor matters or if all the FP calcs. are just dumped off to these? Maybe it's possible to buy some cheap machines as long as they have PCIe and put these cards in them?
I suppose we'll find out if it's wishfull thinking before too long.
-Greg
I wonder if the processor matters or if all the FP calcs. are just dumped off to these? Maybe it's possible to buy some cheap machines as long as they have PCIe and put these cards in them?
I suppose we'll find out if it's wishfull thinking before too long.
-Greg
kiaran
06-22-2005, 02:21 AM
Maybe it's possible to buy some cheap machines as long as they have PCIe and put these cards in them?
That would be so cool. Imagine a CPU with 5 PCI slots filled with these suckers. If they can work like that, you could have a serious render farm tucked neatly into a single case. Amazing.
That would be so cool. Imagine a CPU with 5 PCI slots filled with these suckers. If they can work like that, you could have a serious render farm tucked neatly into a single case. Amazing.
Hazdaz
06-22-2005, 02:38 AM
These type of products make me go "Meh"
I mean, what is possible with them is (potentially) amazing and all, but they ALL (this card, as well as those raytrace-accelerators) have some massive disadvantage - What happens if your software doesn't support it?... or what happens if the company that builds those cards, goes out of business, and now the newest version of your software doesn't run on it anymore? What happens if it speeds up most of the features you are rendering, but doesn't support hair or some other renderers/geometry that you need rendered? They are all essentially a closed system - and when you are talking about $10k that is a very scary thing.
Until Microsoft or some other big company comes out with a standard way for these cards to interface with other software and other hardware (something along the lines of OpenGL or Direct3D), I think the disadvantages far out weight the potential benefits.
I mean, what is possible with them is (potentially) amazing and all, but they ALL (this card, as well as those raytrace-accelerators) have some massive disadvantage - What happens if your software doesn't support it?... or what happens if the company that builds those cards, goes out of business, and now the newest version of your software doesn't run on it anymore? What happens if it speeds up most of the features you are rendering, but doesn't support hair or some other renderers/geometry that you need rendered? They are all essentially a closed system - and when you are talking about $10k that is a very scary thing.
Until Microsoft or some other big company comes out with a standard way for these cards to interface with other software and other hardware (something along the lines of OpenGL or Direct3D), I think the disadvantages far out weight the potential benefits.
leuey
06-22-2005, 04:27 AM
Yeah - i don't know if these are going to happen or not (it appears they're PCI-X boards and take advantage of the standard math libraries - so if your program uses these libraries you just replace them w/ the accelerate ones and you're good to go. Does Maya use standard libraries for rendering calcs? I don't know)
I think in general we're seeing a lot of performance onboard the computer besides just the CPU - I think GPU's, potentially Physics Accelerators if they take off, clearspeed boards, cell boards, whatever....can be taken advantage of to huge potential, there just has to be some simple, low-level, always gonna work, way of doing it.
-Greg
I think in general we're seeing a lot of performance onboard the computer besides just the CPU - I think GPU's, potentially Physics Accelerators if they take off, clearspeed boards, cell boards, whatever....can be taken advantage of to huge potential, there just has to be some simple, low-level, always gonna work, way of doing it.
-Greg
Thalaxis
06-22-2005, 02:28 PM
there just has to be some simple, low-level, always gonna work, way of doing it.
That's the hard part... but if these suckers use a standard API set and just replace a common DLL or
something along those lines, it should be feasible -- much the same way that you can select OpenGL or
Direct3D as the viewport renderer in XSI, for example.
Of course, you'll have to put memory on the ClearSpeed card... that might add to the price; in its stock
configuration with a tiny cache it won't do squat for rendering. How much it's going to cost will probably
have more to do with how many they think they can sell + who they convinced to fabricate it + how many
3rd parties hop on board + whether or not they get buy-in from MS.
I don't see this is being successful in the gaming market (they'd have to face nVidia, ATI, and that
new physics processor), but if they got the right third party on board this could become a competitor for
ART, or something along those lines, only with the possibility of a larger market (not limited to production
rendering).
That's the hard part... but if these suckers use a standard API set and just replace a common DLL or
something along those lines, it should be feasible -- much the same way that you can select OpenGL or
Direct3D as the viewport renderer in XSI, for example.
Of course, you'll have to put memory on the ClearSpeed card... that might add to the price; in its stock
configuration with a tiny cache it won't do squat for rendering. How much it's going to cost will probably
have more to do with how many they think they can sell + who they convinced to fabricate it + how many
3rd parties hop on board + whether or not they get buy-in from MS.
I don't see this is being successful in the gaming market (they'd have to face nVidia, ATI, and that
new physics processor), but if they got the right third party on board this could become a competitor for
ART, or something along those lines, only with the possibility of a larger market (not limited to production
rendering).
mummey
06-22-2005, 02:40 PM
and maybe an intern should be more careful of what they say when they have their name attached. A lot of people read these forums.
I'm giving an honest opinion, and not afraid to attach my name to it. I respect Jeff's work on Killer Bean, but I also stand by my original statement. I was stating that one should not be so quick to commit to buying these devices when all we have right now is a company's PR. I (most likely) could have found a better way to state that ( :) ) but I WON'T change my opinion solely because of the person involved.
Is that really so wrong? Lorecanth? Kiaran?
I'm giving an honest opinion, and not afraid to attach my name to it. I respect Jeff's work on Killer Bean, but I also stand by my original statement. I was stating that one should not be so quick to commit to buying these devices when all we have right now is a company's PR. I (most likely) could have found a better way to state that ( :) ) but I WON'T change my opinion solely because of the person involved.
Is that really so wrong? Lorecanth? Kiaran?
Thalaxis
06-22-2005, 02:44 PM
I'm giving an honest opinion, and not afraid to attach my name to it. I respect Jeff's work on Killer Bean, but I also stand by my original statement. I was stating that one should not be so quick to commit to buying these devices when all we have right now is a company's PR. I (most likely) could have found a better way to state that ( :) ) but I WON'T change my opinion solely because of the person involved.
Is that really so wrong? Lorecanth? Kiaran?
I think you just misunderstood what Jeff was saying... his post wasn't "wow, this is cool, I'm going to get me
one" it was "if it's the right price and it works well enough I'll get me one or two". So though he was a bit
more excited than you were, he didn't commit to buying one, either.
Is that really so wrong? Lorecanth? Kiaran?
I think you just misunderstood what Jeff was saying... his post wasn't "wow, this is cool, I'm going to get me
one" it was "if it's the right price and it works well enough I'll get me one or two". So though he was a bit
more excited than you were, he didn't commit to buying one, either.
mummey
06-22-2005, 02:50 PM
I think you just misunderstood what Jeff was saying... his post wasn't "wow, this is cool, I'm going to get me
one" it was "if it's the right price and it works well enough I'll get me one or two". So though he was a bit
more excited than you were, he didn't commit to buying one, either.
That sounds reasonable. I apologize if I offended you Jeff.
Thank you for your input.
one" it was "if it's the right price and it works well enough I'll get me one or two". So though he was a bit
more excited than you were, he didn't commit to buying one, either.
That sounds reasonable. I apologize if I offended you Jeff.
Thank you for your input.
Thalaxis
06-22-2005, 02:52 PM
If this ClearSpeed thing actually takes off, it would be possible to write a pretty fast renderer using Ruby
;)
;)
paulrus
06-22-2005, 03:07 PM
My only concern is that it reminds me of the ICE products from nearly a decade ago:
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-256447.html?legacy=cnet
Published: December 19, 1996, 12:45 PM PST
"CE has developed a product called GreenICE, which consists of a hardware and software component. The hardware component is a floating point engine, which comes as a PCI card...One the most compelling features of the ICE technology is the ability to string thousands of processors together, known as "massively parallel processing," which can do calculations much faster than traditional graphics processors because it has many processors working simultaneously."
Unless this board requires absolutely no recompiling to get apps to use it, it's not going to have much of a chance.
PG
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-256447.html?legacy=cnet
Published: December 19, 1996, 12:45 PM PST
"CE has developed a product called GreenICE, which consists of a hardware and software component. The hardware component is a floating point engine, which comes as a PCI card...One the most compelling features of the ICE technology is the ability to string thousands of processors together, known as "massively parallel processing," which can do calculations much faster than traditional graphics processors because it has many processors working simultaneously."
Unless this board requires absolutely no recompiling to get apps to use it, it's not going to have much of a chance.
PG
Coliba
06-22-2005, 05:00 PM
This paragraph from the amdzone article makes me think software will have to be rewritten for these cards:
"Details on product availability of the ClearSpeed CSX600 and support will be released in 2005. Currently standard libraries, tools and other resources are available to independent software vendors. Software development kits and sample silicon will be available to OEMs in Q3 of 2005."
"Details on product availability of the ClearSpeed CSX600 and support will be released in 2005. Currently standard libraries, tools and other resources are available to independent software vendors. Software development kits and sample silicon will be available to OEMs in Q3 of 2005."
Jeff Lew
06-22-2005, 08:35 PM
Hey mummey,
No sweat. Let's move on. ;)
Jeff
No sweat. Let's move on. ;)
Jeff
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