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fortner
10-19-2002, 05:26 AM
I would love some feedback on this
facial rig (http://www.mikefortner.com/pages/head.html)

I have a poly proxy, with a soft body, driving my Sub-D.

Any suggestions, or comments would be great.



Mike

fortner
10-25-2002, 08:46 AM
I updated my site with a lip-sync, and deformations.
check it out....tell me what you think
www.mikefortner.com/pages/head.html (http://www.mikefortner.com/pages/head.html)

jschleifer
10-25-2002, 08:58 AM
Heya,

checked out the avi.. it's an interesting technique, but you aren't seeming to get very good shapes for the "p", "b", "w", or any of those types of shapes.. looks very much like a muppet. :)

I think you need to add more sorts of controls for getting the lips to purse.. and flare..

For example, if you say the words "you have" over and over again, and then stop between the words and hold your lips.. you'll see that your lips are flared out, but pushed together.. see how that feels? can you get the character's lips to roll like that?

but it's a good start, anyway! :)

-jason

fortner
10-25-2002, 09:18 AM
thanks Jason....i see what you're saying.
I'll continue to work on him and see how i can
push the rig. Hopefully, it was just my lack of time
put into animating....we shall see. Thanks a lot for the comments.

jschleifer
10-25-2002, 10:13 AM
check out this link for some good examples of how to move the lips.. you should be able to get this expressive with the face (not that you always need to.. god forbid!)

http://www.freetoon.com/prestonblair/02-charactermov/02-frame.html

there's tons of other good stuff on this web page.. check it out!

-jason

jschleifer
10-25-2002, 10:14 AM
oops.. here's the direct link to the page..

http://www.freetoon.com/prestonblair/04-dialogue/pages/186.html

fortner
10-25-2002, 10:36 AM
that link kicks butt man....thanks!!

dwalden74
10-29-2002, 11:11 AM
Yeah, I use that site pretty much on a daily basis. Anyway, fornter_n, looks like you still have a long way to go on the facial rig. Youīve really got to EXAGGERATE more to get those facial expressions more understandable. Right now, the movement is ver minimal, and unattractive(sorry for being direct :wip: ). The best facial rig Iīve seen so far had *MANY* influence objects (they were just group nodes), moving pretty much every muscle in the face (translating and rotating). There were around 50 of these, each one had about 2 group-node parents above it, provinding either a rotational offset or translation compensation. The facial setup alone took several weeks (3-4) to complete, however the results were extremely convincing (this was for a realistic creature animation). Obviously if your character is for non-photorealistic purposes, the setup doesnīt have to be quite as complex. I think you should study the muscles of the human face and try to recreate their behavior (at least the most important ones).

...oh, and donīt be afraid to EXAGGERATE!!!

:beer:
david

fortner
10-29-2002, 06:29 PM
dwalden74, no need for apologies for being direct....I appreciate it, your's and Jason's feedback have been helpful, and have made me think about my rig, and how i can progress it.....thanks


I think what the main problem is, is the contol i lack over my z axis. Especially if you take a look at my mel sliders (http://www.mikefortner.com/pages/head.html) . It seems i only have sliders that control the Y and X, which is no problem adding control for the Z. However, how it looks might not be such an easy fix....so, I might have to redo how i have my lips set-up. I might end up driving it with a curve, or something....I'll have to fool around with it. Again, thanks for the feedback.

dwalden74
10-30-2002, 09:57 AM
Hi again-

You may be correct (about the axis and such), however in my opinion you should first think about the CONCEPT, then the TECHNIQUE comes second (the technique may change, however the concept must be the central focus). There are many many ways to set up a facial rig. However, before affronting this task, you should study facial muscle movement/deformation in both human and cartoon examples. 3D will inherently (and should, but thatīs my opinion) go in the direction of cartoon (exaggerated and stylized behavior), therefore you should definitely consider pushing these facial movements beyond minimal realistic movement, into something a bit more expressive. I better stop now before I get too philosophical ;)

:beer:
david

fortner
10-30-2002, 07:25 PM
LOL
thanks again for your words dwalden.

ddjix
10-31-2002, 03:22 AM
How about eyematic facestation... Seems to pretty much automate the process...

www.eyematic.com

dwalden74
10-31-2002, 10:48 AM
???Do you think you could actually get quality animation out of a system like this?!?!??? From what I understand it basically "motion captures" the face. Why not just use motion capture on your 3D characters??? Because, the physical expressive capabilities of a character will always greatly exceed the limits of human motion, and even if you try and scale the results, the movement will still be aweful. Sorry for being so direct (actually, Iīm not sorry, but I certainly donīt want to offend anybody here), but the idea capturing human movement and applying it to a 3D character, IMHO, is a HUGE mistake.

BTW, I love the blond-headed 3D character that company has on the Facestation website....real expressive there...uh-oh, I think PIXAR will soon be out of business...

:beer:
david

ddjix
10-31-2002, 03:56 PM
Idon't know. Sometimes i feel like you guys here are from an ''Elite 3D World'' where things that are not hand made should not even get your attention. Sometimes, you just need a quick and dirty way to do something and sometimes, systems just like this one might get you what you're looking for. Not everybody is looking for spectacular animation like the ones seen is Final fantasy. (though i think they used MoCap). Just do what you're asked for, get paid in the process and make a living out of it. Maybe you're an artist with monumental time on your hands to handcraft your animations to the desired detail.

i believe the world is not just Black or White, but a blurry thing inbetween...

no offense.

dwalden74
10-31-2002, 04:28 PM
no offense taken. I was just expressing my personal views (which obviously donīt reflect those of every other user out there :p ) . My argument was referring to quality animation, given the fact that fortner_n seemed to have the time on his hands to study facial setup... which is great. Of course, if you need a fast job done and quality is not of prime importance, then maybe an automatic system like the facestation will work for you, and thatīs fine with me...I would just never encourage the use of a system like that to someone whoīs starting out doing facial rigging and animation. Itīs like someone who wants to become a good animator, but only works with motion capture.

BTW, I do not come from an Elite 3D World, but rather encourage hard work and a general strive for the best output possible. While Iīm at it, I also do not consider Final Fantasy to have "spetacular animation". It was indeed done with motion capture, which is, IMHO, one of the reasons the film was unsuccessful as an animated feature. Many, including myself (and many people NOT from the field of 3D, I might add) found the film rather boring and uninteresting. My opinion is that one of the main problems in that situation was that the movements of the characters were indeed NOT stylized... this generally makes for uninteresting animation, and can lead to an uninteresting adn unsuccessful film (although there are other factors that make a film successful or not).

just my thoughts...no hard feelings. I certainly donīt mind sharing my opinion on these matters.

:beer:
david

AWAKE
11-04-2002, 05:15 PM
Hey fortner, I Took a class that showed a technique similar to yours, and it changed the way I do my setups. From looking at your setup I'd agree with dwalden's comment about the real life examples of facial movement. Place the setup in the face anatomically and push it past where it should stop. Even for realism, you gotta push it so it reads.

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