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NeoGSR
06-16-2005, 07:36 PM
So I just read something in which an artist jumped off a museum roof-top wearing a suit to re-enact the scene of people jumping off of the twin towers.

now, for me personally this doesnt bother me. Its art, to me art is supposed to invoke emotions no matter who you may offend.

I read the article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8245204/

And one part kinda pissed me off, a woman who didnt agree with it cause her son died responded with, "He’s an artist? Go paint a bowl of fruit or something.”

Now I dont want to start a thread about the 9/11 aspect, but what this woman said about artists. Do any of you still find that people think artists are lazy people who draw paint fruit for a living? Your thoughts?

PhilWesson
06-16-2005, 08:05 PM
While I don't agree with how this artist decided to pay tribute, i think what the woman said was a lame jab from out of ignorance.

ndat
06-16-2005, 08:10 PM
I really think he should have painted the bowl of fruit jumping off a building is kinda lame expecially i he didn't kill himself doing it. If your going to commit to something do it right don't half ass it.

Slurry
06-16-2005, 08:16 PM
Fruit is a common theme when painting still life. I don't see why anybody would be offended by her statement.
It's like saying,"He's supposed to be an athlete? Go kick a ball or something!". Not all sports and athletes involve kicking a ball. But it get's the association across.

On another note: Art is supposed to evoke an emotional response. That doesn't mean everything that evokes an emotion is art. I could call you a name that evokes anger...doesn't make what I said poetry.

I don't get alot of this performance art stuff. Oh well.

Art

Meaty
06-16-2005, 08:45 PM
It is easier to be noticed when one does something "provocative" ... and what makes it provocative is when there is a body of people to be provoked. It is hard to be noticed for being brave by doing a painting of a bowl of fruit. In today's artistic world, where being noticed is the new version of the corruption of authenticity, "artists" are uninspired and simply aim to shock.

Ilikesoup
06-16-2005, 08:57 PM
I consider myself to be open minded, but this is crude, insensitive and unimaginative. If he wanted to make the statement "life is about falling" he could have chosen many places besides NY to take his pictures. I agree with Meaty that he's trying to get attention (hope that wasn't out of context, Meaty).

toonman
06-16-2005, 09:06 PM
Fruit is a common theme when painting still life. I don't see why anybody would be offended by her statement.

I wouldn't be offended, but I would consider it an ignorant remark.


It's like saying,"He's supposed to be an athlete? Go kick a ball or something!". Not all sports and athletes involve kicking a ball. But it get's the association across.


An ignorant association, if I may...

On another note: Art is supposed to evoke an emotional response. That doesn't mean everything that evokes an emotion is art. I could call you a name that evokes anger...doesn't make what I said poetry.

I don't get alot of this performance art stuff. Oh well.

Art

I couldn't agree more!!
:buttrock:

Ghostscape
06-16-2005, 09:16 PM
IMHO, Anyone who feels more offended by this woman's comment than by the fact that this guy is jumping off a building and calling it art really needs to get their shit together.

Fruit is a common theme for still life paintings, which is a common thing for artists to do, particularily traditional artists, who share a closer thematic relationship with "performance artists", as opposed to Joe Somedude who does shaders for Pixar, etc. So when she is insulting (I would be too in her shoes) an idiot who is claiming jumping off a building is art, it's pretty easy to see why she'd use that topic.

Seriously, why is this even a discussion point? How do you take a comment directed at a specific individual and take offense at it, when it isn't directed towards you or your medium or your profession (Unless the OP jumps off buildings and calls it art for a living) etc?

I really do not understand how anyone, traditional artist, digital artist, commercial artist, or construction worker, could possibly consider jumping off a building artistic, or how anyone could possibly take offense at this woman getting pissed at an idiot who is trying to offend her by mocking her son's death.

leigh
06-16-2005, 09:22 PM
IMHO, Anyone who feels more offended by this woman's comment than by the fact that this guy is jumping off a building and calling it art really needs to get their shit together.

Agreed.

At any rate, if you're going to be offended by stupid remarks in the the press, then you should avoid the press altogether. If you're secure and confident about your career as an artist then it shouldn't bother you in the slightest what other people think.

Many of my friends think I "work in cartoons" for a living. It doesn't bother me at all :)

toonman
06-16-2005, 10:21 PM
Hehe... it reminds me of a time where someone asked me what I did for a living... I candidly replied "I do 3d animation". To which he replied... "Aahhh! Yes... so you do websites?" --- "???"
:)
Should I have been offended by that person's ignorace?
;)
/back to work

jmBoekestein
06-16-2005, 11:25 PM
I really do not understand how anyone, traditional artist, digital artist, commercial artist, or construction worker, could possibly consider jumping off a building artistic, or how anyone could possibly take offense at this woman getting pissed at an idiot who is trying to offend her by mocking her son's death.

OK, try getting past a workforce of lawyers and insurance salesmen with a parachute strapped to your back and funny lookin' goggles on, and then under their watchful gaze get into an elevator(with a smirk preferably)

;)you bet ya!

SheepFactory
06-16-2005, 11:29 PM
half the non cg people I know think all animators work at "disneyland". who cares what they think :)

jmBoekestein
06-16-2005, 11:36 PM
I know people working to get into the cg industry that think everybody can model. :surprised

T Bomb
06-16-2005, 11:46 PM
Did the guy who jumped off the museum die? (didn't read the article sorry) If so, GOOD! That wasn't art, that was a lame attempt to get noticed. Simple as that.

Schwinnz
06-17-2005, 02:01 AM
See, what he did worked: we're talking about it. That all he probably wanted. I applaud.

About the offending part, really, I just do not care. Anything gets offending in the us. Will he have to pay 500 000 and be censored ?

Zack
06-17-2005, 04:01 AM
While I agree this is offensive, a lot people are missing that the point was not the performance. It was an attempt to stage artistic photographs.

rendermania
06-17-2005, 04:36 PM
IMHO, Anyone who feels more offended by this woman's comment than by the fact that this guy is jumping off a building and calling it art really needs to get their shit together.

'Man in suit falling' is one of the most iconic and metaphor laden images in Twentieth Century art and pop art. It crops up in litterally thousands of places and all sorts of media, from business comics to films to photographs to cover illustrations for news magazines. Ever watched films like 'The Game', 'Las Vegas', 'Titanic' or 'The Hudsucker Proxy'? It features quite prominently in them. In 'Las Vegas' its none other than Saul Bass who uses the image in the opening sequence to show Robert de Niro falling past the neon lights of the city.

Its also commonly associated with a rather famous early Twentieth Century event. The 1927 Wall Street Crash, after which some brokers literally jumped out of windows.

I wouldn't read art too literally, especially when it plays on iconic imagery.

nineinchneil
06-17-2005, 05:15 PM
While I agree this is offensive, a lot people are missing that the point was not the performance. It was an attempt to stage artistic photographs.

agreed.
why is it okay for people to paint pictures in tribute of the twin towers burning and people jumping out, but not okay for it to be done in a live photograph medium. you're looking to much into the process than at the end result. he's making a tribute to 9/11. it's a special effect he's trying to create.

how come no one was offended at the movie 'titanic'? you think there were people on-site saying 'this is sick and twisted' as people reenacted falling off the ship, while it was being filmed? no. we can't afford to be so narrowminded about art. it's much broader than you can imagine.

Ilikesoup
06-17-2005, 09:01 PM
agreed.
why is it okay for people to paint pictures in tribute of the twin towers burning and people jumping out, but not okay for it to be done in a live photograph medium. you're looking to much into the process than at the end result. he's making a tribute to 9/11. it's a special effect he's trying to create.

I haven't seen the paintings you're referring to so I can't comment. But the onlookers haven't seen the photos--they were seeing the reenactment of a horrible tragedy, one that made victims of their friends and loved ones. It's like taking a girl whose parents were brutally murdered and having 3 street mimes act out the murder scene for her.

nineinchneil
06-17-2005, 09:58 PM
so you're saying it's offensive only because it was done in new york city where people related to the victims are most likely to see it happening? would it not be a problem if he went to some remote part of the world, reenacted it, and brought the finished product back?

the street mime analogy doesn't work here, because again, you're not seeing the bigger picture. it's merely the process of a kind of picture the artist wants to take. the acting out of a murder by mimes would be the finished product. they're reenacting it to reenact it. this artist is reenacting the pose for a photograph he wants to take as a tribute to the 9/11 tragedy. people make paintings of brutal scenes based on real events all the time. if the victims of a certain event was present while the artist was painting it, does that make it invalid?
would it be an outrage if when filming 'titanic', a relative of a titanic victim happen to walk by and see the film shoot in progress?

i don't blame the families of the victims for reacting the way they did. i probably would've said the same thing, in their place. i can't imagine how much their grief is. but for people who don't have any direct connection to it, we have the ability to be objective about it, and see it on a larger scale.

Ilikesoup
06-18-2005, 03:49 AM
i don't blame the families of the victims for reacting the way they did. i probably would've said the same thing, in their place. i can't imagine how much their grief is. but for people who don't have any direct connection to it, we have the ability to be objective about it, and see it on a larger scale.

That's really all that I'm arguing -- it's insensitive that this artist made a very public ON SITE reenactment of an event that was traumatic to thousands of New Yorkers. Staging this elsewhere would have shown sensitivity to those who witnessed 9/11 personally.

The mime show would be a tasteless bit of performance art. Photographing the mimes' performance would not make it any less so, and calling it "art" wouldn't lessen the trauma to the (hypothetical) girl. I'm mildly curious about to see the leaping photographer's photos once he's done. Will he put the events of 9/11 into some kind of context? Will there be any original thought put into it? Will there be anything morally redeeming about the finished product or will he merely trivialize the event? In short, will it be art or is the photographer using 9/11 as a springboard to free publicity?

nineinchneil
06-18-2005, 04:38 PM
I'm mildly curious about to see the leaping photographer's photos once he's done. Will he put the events of 9/11 into some kind of context? Will there be any original thought put into it? Will there be anything morally redeeming about the finished product or will he merely trivialize the event? In short, will it be art or is the photographer using 9/11 as a springboard to free publicity?
these are good questions, and i think that judging this guy as "trying to offend by mocking the victims' deaths" is unfair until we get answers to these questions - until we see his finished piece.

Boone
06-18-2005, 04:51 PM
I don't believe this - the woman was simply making a widely known figure of speech.

"You wanna be an artist - go paint a bowl of fruit or sumthin'!"

Not to mention this was a woman who lost HER SON on that day! You really think she wants to re-live that magical moment when her Son plumeted to his death?

God give me strength!

stepington
06-19-2005, 02:45 PM
How about a game of Frogger as a metaphore for life?

Ilikesoup
06-20-2005, 02:34 PM
How about a game of Frogger as a metaphore for life?

It will never work. Roadkill (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=248534)is not art.

nineinchneil
06-20-2005, 02:41 PM
if you say so :rolleyes:

Gord-MacDonald
06-20-2005, 06:44 PM
Sept 11 was a pivitol and tragic moment in history. No one could feel the pain more deeply than the families of those who died under such horrific circumstances.

I read the article last week - this guy whoever he is, is nothing more than an attention seeking pip-squeek. What this guy did was lame, insensitive grandstanding. Its too bad that the press even reported on his performance.

He did his little stunt while being secured with wires - too bad they didn't break - now *that* would have been poetic (and newsworthy).

Gord


and one more thing - just whats wrong with painting fruit?

Gord-MacDonald
06-20-2005, 07:06 PM
While I agree this is offensive, a lot people are missing that the point was not the performance. It was an attempt to stage artistic photographs.

sorry Zach - this guy is desperately trying to grab attention on the backs of other peoples pain.

(what follows is not directed at your comments)

Ya he is going to do the whole *performance artists* thing - go out in public, bring along a media buddy, grab attention, have it documented (photos, video yada...) and then exhibit them in some high end gallery. Undoubtedly there will be *critics* who will applaud, and write alot of 'deep' bullsh*t about the meaning of this artists 'work' in heady art magazines (hey - critics gotta make a living to - right?) etc, etc, etc

When all is said and done, this assh*le is not bringing anything of value to the table. He is feeding off of the pain of others and serving it up as a provocative, angst ridden act of self-expression - I for one, have no appetite for his vapid tasteless meal.

Gord

Junpei
06-20-2005, 09:51 PM
so you're saying it's offensive only because it was done in new york city where people related to the victims are most likely to see it happening? would it not be a problem if he went to some remote part of the world, reenacted it, and brought the finished product back?

the street mime analogy doesn't work here, because again, you're not seeing the bigger picture. it's merely the process of a kind of picture the artist wants to take. the acting out of a murder by mimes would be the finished product. they're reenacting it to reenact it. this artist is reenacting the pose for a photograph he wants to take as a tribute to the 9/11 tragedy. people make paintings of brutal scenes based on real events all the time. if the victims of a certain event was present while the artist was painting it, does that make it invalid?
would it be an outrage if when filming 'titanic', a relative of a titanic victim happen to walk by and see the film shoot in progress?

i don't blame the families of the victims for reacting the way they did. i probably would've said the same thing, in their place. i can't imagine how much their grief is. but for people who don't have any direct connection to it, we have the ability to be objective about it, and see it on a larger scale.
Your comments about titanic are I believe foolish - most would agree that titanic was a beautifully made film and drama of a historical event. I imagine on the DVD they had an actual survivor who apparently would endorse this movie. It’s far different from silly fools play, this is not a film, only a person jumping of a building for media. People will find any excuse for media. I would feel 9/11 is being cheapened by this attention seeking person.

This is not an appropriate way to show respect or tribute. If your own daughter committed suicide by jumping of a roof would you like this media seeking person jumping of a building with wires to mock your loss? Cheapen your loss? Cheapen in front of the world like a clown? Would it even matter if it was in front of your face or in a neighboring town? I can't believe anyone would endorse or respect this kind of action!! Their must to be a line to draw somewhere, this is gone past art well into idiocy.

Allot of things have deep meaning in them. But you have to wake up and realize that not everything has the deep inner meaning you pin on it! If his wires broke would you be saying his body is an artistic representation of a corpse? Would he be a saint for representing all the pain and suffering in the world for his malformed broken body then?? How far would you go?

What is next? Let us act mentally disabled in order to respect retarded persons? Would this be artistic or tasteful? Or would it simply be mockery?

This "incident" is no more respectful or artful as screaming in a car to tribute drunk driving victims.

I do not think he symbolize 9/11 at all, I think he symbolize stupid attention seeking people. Now how is that for the bigger picture?

nineinchneil
06-20-2005, 10:17 PM
Your comments about titanic are I believe foolish - most would agree that titanic was a beautifully made film and drama of a historical event. I imagine on the DVD they had an actual survivor who apparently would endorse this movie. It’s far different from silly fools play, this is not a film, only a person jumping of a building for media. People will find any excuse for media. I would feel 9/11 is being cheapened by this attention seeking person.
This is not an appropriate way to show respect or tribute. If your own daughter committed suicide by jumping of a roof would you like this media seeking person jumping of a building with wires to mock your loss? Cheapen your loss? Cheapen in front of the world like a clown? Would it even matter if it was in front of your face or in a neighboring town? I can't believe anyone would endorse or respect this kind of action!! Their must to be a line to draw somewhere, this is gone past art well into idiocy.
Allot of things have deep meaning in them. But you have to wake up and realize that not everything has the deep inner meaning you pin on it! If his wires broke would you be saying his body is an artistic representation of a corpse? Would he be a saint for representing all the pain and suffering in the world for his malformed broken body then?? How far would you go?
What is next? Let us act mentally disabled in order to respect retarded persons? Would this be artistic or tasteful? Or would it simply be mockery?
This "incident" is no more respectful or artful as screaming in a car to tribute drunk driving victims.
I do not think he symbolize 9/11 at all, I think he symbolize stupid attention seeking people. Now how is that for the bigger picture?

and exactly where do you get the idea that he is mocking their deaths? you're assuming that. i'm trying to give him the benefit of a doubt and i'm foolish for that?!
what about photographers who take pictures of the horrible conditions in africa, and puts those pictures up in art galleries? are you saying that he too is exploiting other people's misery for his own purposes? who are you to judge him before he finishes what he's trying to do?
and exactly why is titanic not a good example? titanic was a beautifully made film and drama of a historical event.
try and think a little; if this movie was made only a few years after the accident, you think it would be seen as a beautiful film? you're judging this guy before he has the chance to show what he's trying to do. you have no idea what his photographs are going to look like.
What is next? Let us act mentally disabled in order to respect retarded persons? Would this be artistic or tasteful? Or would it simply be mockery? may i direct your attention to the recent movie with sean penn acting like a 'retarded person'; that movie was awesome. you can't judge whether or not it is artistic, or mockery unless you see how it's being done.
you want to jump to conclusions, fine. jumping to conclusions seems to be quite the trend these days; it's the reason for this stupid war, it's the reason for the bigotry everwhere, it's the reason for this severe homophobia in the west. go ahead and perpetuate this ignorance.

Gord-MacDonald
06-20-2005, 10:40 PM
what about photographers who take pictures of the horrible conditions in africa, and puts those pictures up in art galleries? are you saying that he too is exploiting other people's misery for his own purposes?

nineinchneil - This is a false analogy. Thus guy is *staging* an event, a photographer who photographs the horrible conditions of Africa is not.

Incidently - there are many, many photographs and videos of the horrible events of Sept 11. The families (to my knowledge) do not condemn them. These photos and videos form a historical record of this terrible event. They are not trivial, this guys stuff is.

Gord

jmBoekestein
06-20-2005, 10:48 PM
Funny way to put it, what if this guys stuff can illustrate something close up and personal that we couldn't see on the other footage. Kind of unfair to call it trivial.

Junpei
06-20-2005, 11:02 PM
and exactly where do you get the idea that he is mocking their deaths? you're assuming that. i'm trying to give him the benefit of a doubt and i'm foolish for that?!

You should read what I wrote before reply, then you should know, i believe that his actions are mocking tragity in a similiar way to my provided examples. i do believe your anology is foolish.
believe it or not there are individuals who are beyond “benefit of the doubt”. i think you would agree. for instance, if someone were to aim a gun yourself, would you give him the benifit of the doubt, or take actions to avoid being shot.

what about photographers who take pictures of the horrible conditions in africa, and puts those pictures up in art galleries?

Those are controversial issues as well, however I’m afraid you do not see crucial differences in these issues. Those photographers are bringing misery to the public eyes, they are not reenacting for the miserable to see. I doubt photographs of someone jumping off an art museum would be highly educational as to 9/11.


are you saying that he too is exploiting other people's misery for his own purposes? who are you to judge him before he finishes what he's trying to do?

People will in fact judge based on actions.

and exactly why is titanic not a good example?

try and think a little; if this movie was made only a few years after the accident, you think it would be seen as a beautiful film?

Yes timing is a important factor in movie releases. Movies of such matter are often released at given times to be more sensitive to tragedy. This jump was not done sensitively. If it was it would not have caused such a disturbance.


What is next? Let us act mentally disabled in order to respect retarded persons? Would this be artistic or tasteful? Or would it simply be mockery?
may i direct your attention to the recent movie with sean penn acting like a 'retarded person'; that movie was awesome. you can't judge whether or not it is artistic, or mockery unless you see how it's being done.

A well made drama, but this building jumper I’m afraid is still more alike to my example then a feature film. So I ask again, tasteful? Or mockery? I would hate to be in a tragic situation where you are also present if this is how you treat people’s loss.


you want to jump to conclusions, fine. jumping to conclusions seems to be quite the trend these days; it's the reason for this stupid war, it's the reason for the bigotry everwhere, it's the reason for this severe homophobia in the west. go ahead and perpetuate this ignorance.

You are in fact jumping to a conclusion as well; however different then mine, you have come to a conclusion. Rather unfounded in my opinion, but under your logic you are just as foolish as me. Its ill advised to simply explain a conclusion away as hasty when it does not favor your opinion. People may judge actions, and assure yourself, you also judge based on actions and not outcomes. The war isn’t over, yet you judge on actions, not outcomes. There are good sides to every argument, ignoring them is what will get you in trouble. Let me also remind that “jumping to conclusions” is a relative statement, you say severe homophobia is a result of “jumping to conclusions”, yes this subject has probably been on the debate table for a very long time, so tell me, were is the line between developed and hasty conclusions.

Gord-MacDonald
06-20-2005, 11:08 PM
Funny way to put it, what if this guys stuff can illustrate something close up and personal that we couldn't see on the other footage. Kind of unfair to call it trivial.

Like what? He wasn't at the WTC on Sept 11 to my knowledge.

From the actual article - I believe this context is "fair use" mods if you feel otherwise please remove!

**********************************************************
Collaborating photographers snapped away as Kerry Skarbakka fell more than 30 times from the five-story Museum of Contemporary Art on Tuesday. The photographs will be retouched to erase the pulleys and wires that kept Skarbakka from hitting the pavement. (my emphsis - GM)

Skarbakka, 34, said he started thinking about falling after watching on television as workers jumped to their deaths from the twin towers on Sept. 11, 2001.

“I was so distraught, I needed some way to find an artistic response,” he told the Chicago Sun-Times. Now, he says he sees falling as a metaphor for life.

“Mentally, physically and emotionally, from day to day, we fall. Even walking is falling: You take a step, fall and catch yourself,” he said.

***********************************************************

I am sorry Jan-Mark I have spent enough time around so called experimental arts
milieu to bite on any of this guys Bullsh*t.

His comments and stated purpose are a muddled load of crap.

first we get:

“I was so distraught, I needed some way to find an artistic response,”

*oh I am soooo full of pain*

and then:

...Now, he says he sees falling as a metaphor for life...

*does anyone think this is deep, I mean really*


and then:

“Mentally, physically and emotionally, from day to day, we fall. Even walking is falling: You take a step, fall and catch yourself,”

*look at me, look at me - I just figured out that walking is dynamic*

big deal

cheers,
Gord

ashakarc
06-20-2005, 11:17 PM
You are entitled to your taste and aesthetic standard, you can show your disgust or your appreciation to any work of art, you can also question the validity of the work of art, it's a free country after all, isn't it? But remember the artist (http://www.artnet.com/artist/424059483/Kerry_Skarbakka.html) has the right to express too.

This discussion remind me of the ugly days under Saddam where artists and students of art used to be beaten up by the intelligence forces for showing Macbeth in Saddam's uniform with body guards and stuff at a student theatrical play. Poets where tortured, artists where beaten, and architects were improsined. Do you like to live in a place like that where you have to watch for every individual's sensitivity to their issues. Give humanity a break !!

Junpei
06-20-2005, 11:29 PM
You are entitled to your taste and aesthetic standard, you can show your disgust or your appreciation to any work of art, you can also question the validity of the work of art, it's a free country after all, isn't it? But remember the artist (http://www.artnet.com/artist/424059483/Kerry_Skarbakka.html) has the right to express too.

This discussion remind me of the ugly days under Saddam where artists and students of art used to be beaten up by the intelligence forces for showing Macbeth in Saddam's uniform with body guards and stuff at a student theatrical play. Poets where tortured, artists where beaten, and architects were improsined. Do you like to live in a place like that where you have to watch for every individual's sensitivity to their issues. Give humanity a break !!

It’s a hard fact of life that some people personal taste is in the mockery of others misery. If this is your point to make you will have little trouble convincing. No poets are being tortured, no artists beaten, architects are not being imprisoned. The biggest victims here are the same of 9/11. Perhaps the artist has the right to express himself in whichever way he wants, perhaps a drunk has a right to curse his family. But I will not stand by such actions. In reality we have no rights, they are privileges protected by the country you live under, and if you abuse these privileges they will be taken away, you will be punished in the justice system. This is how society must function.

Gord-MacDonald
06-20-2005, 11:36 PM
This discussion remind me of the ugly days under Saddam where artists and students of art used to be beaten up by the intelligence forces for showing Macbeth in Saddam's uniform with body guards and stuff at a student theatrical play. Poets where tortured, artists where beaten, and architects were improsined. Do you like to live in a place like that where you have to watch for every individual's sensitivity to their issues. Give humanity a break !!

Gosh ashakarc - this discussion is a light year from Saddams torture chambers. Do I respect the artist? - NO. Do I think he is a jerk? - YES. Have I expressed my feeling on the matter ? YES. Does that make me anything like Saddam? - not a chance!

I have never lived in Iraq, but have seen enough documentation of life under Saddams rule to feel sickened that anyone should be subject to such horrifying oppression - and I mean that absolutely and unconditionally!

The two are very different issues.

Gord

ashakarc
06-20-2005, 11:49 PM
It’s a hard fact of life that some people personal taste is in the mockery of others misery.

The guy was not mocking anything, he's just a jerk. Just look at his work, I don't find it appealing, but you obviously are loading the work with more than it deserves and giving free PR to that photographer.

The two are very different issues.
Not at all. Oppression and intolerence starts from grass root level. If any one with the attitude of oppressing free speech and expression gets into power, he or she will react in a similar fashion.

ashakarc
06-20-2005, 11:52 PM
In reality we have no rights, they are privileges protected by the country you live under, and if you abuse these privileges they will be taken away, you will be punished in the justice system. This is how society must function.

In reality, you have your basic human rights. I don't like the tone of your words here, simply because you declare these things as cannonical matters.

Gord-MacDonald
06-21-2005, 12:06 AM
Not at all. Oppression and intolerence starts from grass root level. If any one with the attitude of oppressing free speech and expression gets into power, he or she will react in a similar fashion.

No one is oppressing this guys freedom of speech - just disagreeing with him. He has the right to self expression, but so do I. I have not tried to censor him - I have exersized my right to freedom of speech in stating that I don't like what he does. (what about my rights?)

Gord

ashakarc
06-21-2005, 12:17 AM
No one is oppressing this guys freedom of speech - just disagreeing with him. He has the right to self expression, but so do I. I have not tried to censor him - I have exersized my right to freedom of speech in stating that I don't like what he does. (what about my rights?)

Gord

He did his little stunt while being secured with wires - too bad they didn't break - now *that* would have been poetic (and newsworthy).

No you didn't want to oppress him. This is like a ping pong game, you never know how the ball is returned to you back. Just ignore my comment !

edit: this is a sensitive subject and I don't think this forum is the appropriate stage to carry on with this discussion, I withdraw.

Gord-MacDonald
06-21-2005, 01:37 AM
No you didn't want to oppress him. This is like a ping pong game, you never know how the ball is returned to you back. Just ignore my comment !

edit: this is a sensitive subject and I don't think this forum is the appropriate stage to carry on with this discussion, I withdraw.

The comment about the breaking wires was sarcastic pure and simple.

OK lets agree to disagree. :) Hopefully the next thread we meet on will be less controversial.

Gord

-Vormav-
06-21-2005, 02:40 AM
On another note: Art is supposed to evoke an emotional response. That doesn't mean everything that evokes an emotion is art. I could call you a name that evokes anger...doesn't make what I said poetry.
AgreedIMHO, Anyone who feels more offended by this woman's comment than by the fact that this guy is jumping off a building and calling it art really needs to get their shit together.

Fruit is a common theme for still life paintings, which is a common thing for artists to do, particularily traditional artists, who share a closer thematic relationship with "performance artists", as opposed to Joe Somedude who does shaders for Pixar, etc. So when she is insulting (I would be too in her shoes) an idiot who is claiming jumping off a building is art, it's pretty easy to see why she'd use that topic.

Seriously, why is this even a discussion point? How do you take a comment directed at a specific individual and take offense at it, when it isn't directed towards you or your medium or your profession (Unless the OP jumps off buildings and calls it art for a living) etc?

I really do not understand how anyone, traditional artist, digital artist, commercial artist, or construction worker, could possibly consider jumping off a building artistic, or how anyone could possibly take offense at this woman getting pissed at an idiot who is trying to offend her by mocking her son's death.

And agreed, again.

I really hate all of the "what is art" arguements. :shrug:

polywrangler
06-21-2005, 06:46 AM
Fruit is a common theme for still life paintings, which is a common thing for artists to do, particularily traditional artists, who share a closer thematic relationship with "performance artists", as opposed to Joe Somedude who does shaders for Pixar, etc. . I would think Joe somedude did plenty of Fruit before working for Pixar especially if he's into shaders

Junpei
06-21-2005, 07:30 AM
In reality, you have your basic human rights. I don't like the tone of your words here, simply because you declare these things as cannonical matters.

Unfortunately I have to disagree. Human rights, by definition include rights to life and liberty, as well as freedom of thought, expression and equality before the law. If a right is inalienable, it can not be bequeathed, restricted, bartered, or sold away. Which rights are inalienable or not or whether there are any rights that are inalienable has been controversy since ancient times. However, tell me. How many rights would you have after suffering a death penalty? I suppose this depends on your religious beliefs. I do not think what i said is unfounded or difficult to believe. furthermore, what breaks would you be giving to 'humanity' by an abuse of expression, simply because you have the "right" to free speech and expression - should we blindly do hurtful things to others in sensitive situations??

Even though I feel it's a bad thing to turn away from a debate, and I wouldn't get very far in law school if i would resign from debate. i'm probably not going to be active in this thread much longer because it's become such a sensitive debate and not perfectly suited for this forum i think.

Peddy
06-21-2005, 09:30 AM
so much stuff to read, but i did happen to notice some people not condoning this mans actions, and then wishing that he died in the event. how is that better?

nineinchneil
06-22-2005, 08:01 AM
Even though I feel it's a bad thing to turn away from a debate, and I wouldn't get very far in law school if i would resign from debate. i'm probably not going to be active in this thread much longer because it's become such a sensitive debate and not perfectly suited for this forum i think.


i think that's the only thing we agree on :D

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06-22-2005, 08:01 AM
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