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jerry0520a
06-13-2005, 07:54 AM
Vray and Brazil r/s in Maya already.

when can in cinema 4d??

http://www.spot3d.com/vray/images/maya/shot02.png

Byla
06-13-2005, 08:11 AM
can we please get decent CA tools first? And Timeline ?

lllab
06-13-2005, 09:53 AM
please not again CA....
there is so much good thirdparty stuff already....

but not on the renderside


cheers

stefan

ThirdEye
06-13-2005, 10:07 AM
please not again CA....
there is so much good thirdparty stuff already....

but not on the renderside


Like it or not CINEMA 4D's rendering is 5 years ahead of all the CA tools + plugins + whatever you want available in CINEMA 4D.

Also from now on: if you have any suggestions please send them to Maxon directly, ranting here is not an option. Maya can use Vray and Brazil? Cool, what should we do then? Send your suggestions to Splutterfish and Chaos Group, this is a C4D forum, not a "i want this and that" area. Thanks for your collaboration.

Byla
06-13-2005, 10:28 AM
please not again CA....
there is so much good thirdparty stuff already....

but not on the renderside


cheers

stefan


Ahm, there are some, but far from what competition offers I am afraid. And please dont say: use motion builder. That is not the solution I am looking for. What I am looking for is a CA pipeline capable Cinema and right now that is not what Cinema offers.

lllab
06-13-2005, 03:04 PM
thirdeye, with all respect nobody is "ranting" here...

...and we know you are of other opinion regarding rendering;-)
cheers

stefan

anobrin
06-13-2005, 06:22 PM
Like it or not CINEMA 4D's rendering is 5 years ahead of all the CA tools + plugins + whatever you want available in CINEMA 4D.

Also from now on: if you have any suggestions please send them to Maxon directly, ranting here is not an option. Maya can use Vray and Brazil? Cool, what should we do then? Send your suggestions to Splutterfish and Chaos Group, this is a C4D forum, not a "i want this and that" area. Thanks for your collaboration.


yeah there has been alot of threads here lately about "we want this now in C4D!!!" :bounce:
......gets kinda old.
maybe some should just suck it up and move on to some of those
other programs that have those features they desire/need so much

darf
06-13-2005, 06:53 PM
yeah there has been alot of threads here lately about "we want this now in C4D!!!" :bounce:
......gets kinda old.
maybe some should just suck it up and move on to some of those
other programs that have those features they desire/need so much

Many have.

David Farmer

muli
06-13-2005, 07:18 PM
Many have.

yes. i am getting a little nervous. maxon not so aggressive as maya or softimage.

why i am nervous? because i do not want to invest more money in a software that cannot keep up. with cheaper prices it is a greater temptation to switch software.

hundredthirtyseven
06-13-2005, 09:44 PM
All I need is a radiosity engine that reacts to SSS and especially Lumas. I don't want any other fancy feature. But I could kill for a useable CA module. I want to forget Mocca for ever.

ThirdEye
06-13-2005, 09:45 PM
Many have.

David Farmer

good for them, if they feel Maya and XSI are better for their needs.

ThirdEye
06-13-2005, 09:46 PM
yes. i am getting a little nervous. maxon not so aggressive as maya or softimage.

why i am nervous? because i do not want to invest more money in a software that cannot keep up. with cheaper prices it is a greater temptation to switch software.

Check the latest updates of all the apps and show me WHEN Maya got a bigger update than ours.

ThirdEye
06-13-2005, 09:50 PM
thirdeye, with all respect nobody is "ranting" here...

...and we know you are of other opinion regarding rendering;-)
cheers

stefan

I don't care about ANY features in particular. We get rendering next? Good. We get CA? Good. We get something else? Good anyway. But i'm TOTALLY PISSED OFF at the complete lack of respect some of you guys have towards the hard work Maxon keeps doing. You wanted ngons? You got ngons. You wanted GI? You got GI. You wanted X? You got X. I'VE NEVER EVER SEEN ANY OTHER COMPANY THAT LISTENS SO MUCH TO THE PEOPLE IN THE FORUMS. But you just keep complaining "XSI has this" "Maya has that" "Vray has this" "Brazil has that". Do you need any of them? It's ok, get them. Are you ok with CINEMA? Great, wait for the updates and keep working instead of asking for new toys every single day.

wurp
06-13-2005, 10:13 PM
I dont usually post in this forum as Im an xsi user myself, just wanted to say we had the exact same discussion on xsibase and the xsi section of cgtalk, people being pissed off cuz they thought the other programes got better updates than XSI did. In both cases its total bollocks as both xsi and c4d has been developing quicker than most(all?) other 3d software out there. Stop being paranoid and just get on with it :)

tapaul
06-13-2005, 10:43 PM
If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, you can bet the water bill is higher and on persistant noise polution due to high lawnmower activity.You should also make sure you get an all year round superior green grass garantee , because maybe this time next year it will infact be greener where you are now.So before anyone jumps over the fence , take a real good look at the grass first, especialy when its raining.And look out for muddy puddles which may be slightly out of view....

mfg
paul Everett

rendermania
06-13-2005, 10:52 PM
But i'm TOTALLY PISSED OFF at the complete lack of respect some of you guys have towards the hard work Maxon keeps doing.

Good for you. Studio Bundle costs Euro 3,200 per seat. It should have up to date rendertech. Period.

ThirdEye
06-13-2005, 10:59 PM
Good for you. Studio Bundle costs Euro 3,200 per seat. It should have up to date rendertech. Period.

First of all no one is forcing you to use CINEMA 4D. I don't think your doctor told you to use it instead of Max and V-Ray.

And by the way Maya Unlimited costs 7000 per seat. It should have a working bevel. Oh and an NPR module. Ah don't forget isolines editing. Ah right, also an artifacts free Final Gather. Ah, and a cloth simulation on par with Clothilde... :rolleyes:

rendermania
06-13-2005, 11:09 PM
How about Cinema getting shadernodes, Mental Ray, fluid effects, MEL, a better CA system, high end dynamics simulation, production ready game exporters and similar stuff? That's what you pay for with Maya after all.

NPR and Clothilde won't save you when you need top notch rendering on a project. Only an up to date and flexible rendering toolset will provide that.

ThirdEye
06-13-2005, 11:10 PM
How about Cinema getting shadernodes, Mental Ray, fluid effects, MEL, a better CA system, high end dynamics simulation, production ready game exporters and similar stuff? That's what you pay for with Maya after all.

NPR and Clothilde won't save you when you need top notch rendering on a project. Only an up to date and flexible rendering toolset will provide that.

You still don't understand what my point is. There's no such thing as the perfect app. Do you think Maya is better than CINEMA for your needs? Then what are you waiting for? :shrug:

danb
06-13-2005, 11:17 PM
How about Cinema getting shadernodes, Mental Ray, fluid effects, MEL, a better CA system, high end dynamics simulation, production ready game exporters and similar stuff? That's what you pay for with Maya after all.

NPR and Clothilde won't save you when you need top notch rendering on a project. Only an up to date and flexible rendering toolset will provide that.

So go buy Maya and save us all the headaches.

There is no reason to complain about this stuff. Maxon knows what c4d needs.

The fact of the matter is that one can't even buy 3dmax or Maya with VRay or Brazil r/s for anywhere near $2600 usd. And also don't forget those don't even include render nodes.

...oh yeah i want to add to thirdeyes list. Don't forget that c4d comes with the industries' best 3d painting package.

And Wurp thanks for chiming in here its nice to get someone elses prospective. I totally agree with you. No program has developed as fast as XSI and C4d.

LucentDreams
06-13-2005, 11:36 PM
How about Cinema getting shadernodes, Mental Ray, fluid effects, MEL, a better CA system, high end dynamics simulation, production ready game exporters and similar stuff? That's what you pay for with Maya after all.

NPR and Clothilde won't save you when you need top notch rendering on a project. Only an up to date and flexible rendering toolset will provide that.Rendering is never the spot that costs me in a project.

Seriously if its tha tbig of a problem move on, but literally I'm seeing threads every few days from the render guys compared to everything else being asked for I'd say its 4 rendering to any 1 request for somethign else on the forums, and i see no discussion from you Render Guru's who apparently no so much about rendering to improve the situation which really, is what the app specific forum is for, to look at tools and discuss how t use them, not always be a grass is greener guy. I'm all for those discussions once in a while, but seriously I'm sooo annoyed by the rendering discussions now. Especially since the real trouble areas of rendeirng are the two least discussed, motionblur and DOF, both of which there is not satisfactory results for in cinema, as opposed to dispersion and GI, which, while they may be slow, are capable of brilliant effects already.

JIII
06-14-2005, 12:02 AM
Sigh, I agree with good ole three-eyes on this one, and honestly so does anobrin which is a first time EVER :-).

If you need to learn the software and need the tools, buy the software, end of story. Like Kai said earlier today, he needs to learn mel-script so he is, he's not starting threads like "OMGZ Y'ALL WHY DON'T WE HAVEZ MEL-SCRIPT IN CINEMAAA"

just buy the app if it is worth THAT much to you to have, otherwise just send your suggestions to maxon/splutterfish/whoever.

Continuumx
06-14-2005, 12:12 AM
If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, you can bet the water bill is higher and on persistant noise polution due to high lawnmower activity.You should also make sure you get an all year round superior green grass garantee , because maybe this time next year it will infact be greener where you are now.So before anyone jumps over the fence , take a real good look at the grass first, especialy when its raining.And look out for muddy puddles which may be slightly out of view....

mfg
paul Everett

I am in agreement here. I mean, there is so much great third party development in plugins and MAXON is working hard to establish a strong presence in important areas (First to go 64bit); Storm Tracer, Nota, PathDeformer, and the much anticipated, DPIT3.

I think we have a fantastic modeler, great modules, and a host of great add-on plugins that at this point, make C4D poised to do heavy damage in any field of application for 3D software.

AdamT
06-14-2005, 01:28 AM
Same here: get with the program or get another program already.

FWIW I think Brazil 2 and VRay standalone are still a quite a long ways off. The former is in beta for Rhino and I can assure you that it's nowhere near complete.

RenatoT
06-14-2005, 02:23 AM
Hi All,

same here, C4d is the last software that i used but is the best software to me for affidability, speed, workflow, and i think is the best multitreading 3D applications that get 100% from cpu. Sure, have also some probs like all others.

.... Brazil And Vray... there are standalone release .. with sdk?

:) cheers
Renato T.

laoseq
06-14-2005, 02:32 AM
oh man... not again.... :banghead:

mummey
06-14-2005, 02:58 AM
Rendermania: Since you want to compare prices, why not use Blender? :D

ZeroNeuro
06-14-2005, 03:04 AM
Rendering solutions are mostly about time, effort, and expandability. As with all renderers, the artist is the key to making excellent works.

A poor artist will never be able to take an advanced renderer and succeed in creating a masterwork. Once you learn the techniques and get the skills needed for production you will be able to do just about anything with any renderer.

The real determining factors are time and effort. Some renderers are faster to work with than others. This does not make them better. It makes them easier.

Personally, I believe that if you are unhappy with something.. it is time to find something you are happy with. This is an INDUSTRY. If we only had one option then it would be too limiting for things to work.

Maya, C4D, LW, XSI... whatever you use. If you learn the trade and if you learn the methodology of what you are doing; things will turn out fine. Just keep after your goals, and don't feel as if you have to use what everyone else uses when it comes to a renderer. If you know what you are doing you can adapt to any system.

-Ritchie

parad0x
06-14-2005, 03:18 AM
well effign said, lock this thread on that right there.... =)

lllab
06-14-2005, 07:24 AM
thirdeye, please watch your vioce please, comeon...


you are a moderator, dont talk like "pissed off" etc. please, this is really not ok.

and i tell you something:

i use cinema for my living, for work, i have my firm and invested very much money and time in cinema. i like a lot of feature more than they are in maya or max, BUT there are just some things that are REALLY lagging behind, and as maxon and ecspecially you guys are just saying we are not using it right, the grass is greener on the other side etc... i think this is really not valid here.

we have hard competition here and people using vray Do have a lot of advantage when it comes to render speed and quality of GI light. it almost forces me against my will to change to max, or maybe maya (when they get vray soon) within the next 12 month.

when i do a wrong decision here, this might danger my company! so there is no "ranting" etc. it is just saying what we feel. i do this job since 1992, i know what i am talking about, so please respect my opinion. i do respect maxon for a lot of their great work, but a chain is just as strong as i its weakest part, and i will hope and still are confident maxon will do something great here in near future. (for a whole firm you dont change just from one day to another, but we are exploring already...a change takes a 6 month at least)

beside i am of the opinion, that in a healthy relationship it is always better to say if you are not happy with something, than beeing just quiet, and then leave suddenly (like others did).

i also would really hope that at least the moderators would keep a moderate vioce
my 2 cent

stefan

Byla
06-14-2005, 07:36 AM
thirdeye, please watch your vioce please, comeon...


you are a moderator, dont talk like "pissed off" etc. please, this is really not ok.

and i tell you something:

i use cinema for my living, for work, i have my firm and invested very much money and time in cinema. i like a lot of feature more than they are in maya or max, BUT there are just some things that are REALLY lagging behind, and as maxon and ecspecially you guys are just saying we are not using it right, the grass is greener on the other side etc... i think this is really not valid here.

we have hard competition here and people using vray Do have a lot of advantage when it comes to render speed and quality of GI light. it almost forces me against my will to change to max, or maybe maya (when they get vray soon) within the next 12 month.

when i do a wrong decision here, this might danger my company! so there is no "ranting" etc. it is just saying what we feel. i do this job since 1992, i know what i am talking about, so please respect my opinion. i do respect maxon for a lot of their great work, but a chain is just as strong as i its weakest part, and i will hope and still are confident maxon will do something great in near future.

beside i am of the opinion, that in a healthy relationship it is always better to say if you are not happy with something, than beeing just quiet, and then leave suddenly (like others did).

i also would really hope that at least the moderators would keep a moderate vioce
my 2 cent

stefan


The area that Cinema really lags behind is character animation, perhaps dynamics, but definalty not rendering. I do realise that for some stuff AR is not the most suitable thing, but it is still way ahead of Cinema CA/dynamic tools.

I have a company as well, we do mainly CA work and so far most of it was done in Maya. But we would be very happy if cinema can offer us something as good as Maya regarding CA tool. But I think we can all forget about MEL kinna scripting. Not gonna happen, at least not soon.

ThirdEye
06-14-2005, 08:27 AM
thirdeye, please watch your vioce please, comeon...
you are a moderator, dont talk like "pissed off" etc. please, this is really not ok.

Try to put yourself in our shoes and try to understand what we (moderators, betatesters, Maxon folks) have to stand: people that keep bringing up the very same subjects every few days in a rude manner (see rendermania's posts if you want some inspiration). We try to work hard to make CINEMA a better product. I'm a full time student and I try to offer my contribution to develop CINEMA in a good way as a betatester and also my contribution to make this forum a good forum. I've NEVER seen anyone working so hard on something, the Maxon team surely doesn't deserve the treatment some of you guys are reserving to them.

and i tell you something:
i use cinema for my living, for work, i have my firm and invested very much money and time in cinema. i like a lot of feature more than they are in maya or max, BUT there are just some things that are REALLY lagging behind, and as maxon and ecspecially you guys are just saying we are not using it right, the grass is greener on the other side etc... i think this is really not valid here.

You say you like a lot of features more than in Maya/Max, this is the key. Do you (not just you) think these features grow on tree's? If you don't have some other features it's because the Maxon team spent their time on these features that make CINEMA unique. Would you prefer an app that crashes ten times a day and uses an akward workflow but has a nice GI or an app like CINEMA that crashes basically never and has a streamlined workflow which is a pleasure to work with? I'd choose the second any day of the year.

we have hard competition here and people using vray Do have a lot of advantage when it comes to render speed and quality of GI light. it almost forces me against my will to change to max, or maybe maya (when they get vray soon) within the next 12 month.

Yeah but... YOU TOLD US!! We're not deaf or blind, once or twice is enough! Development needs his time, it's not like you ask the same thing 300 times and you get it. Maxon admins have to think about a plan, then they have to talk to the coders and see what's needed, then the coders have to make all the dirty work, then the betatesters have to make sure everything is ok and discuss possible solutions, then we have to make the whole thing crash and make bugs reports that the coders have to fix, and THEN the product can ship and you guys here can use it. It's quite a long process, it's not like one day you ask and the day after you get, not with big features like the ones you guys asking, it took a lot before we could use ngons, do you remember it? I'm the first on the line waiting for an update in the rendering area, do you think i don't?

when i do a wrong decision here, this might danger my company! so there is no "ranting" etc. it is just saying what we feel. i do this job since 1992, i know what i am talking about, so please respect my opinion. i do respect maxon for a lot of their great work, but a chain is just as strong as i its weakest part, and i will hope and still are confident maxon will do something great here in near future. (for a whole firm you dont change just from one day to another, but we are exploring already...a change takes a 6 month at least)

I know that, i perfectly do. Do you think a big chuck of the big studios use Maya over XSI, Max and CINEMA because it's better? Ok it has its strong points when it comes to big studios pipelines, but one of the main reasons is that it takes a lot of time to change a pipeline. We're aware of that. But still this can't make us create a time machine. Lemme repeat it: SAYING IT TWICE OR 300 TIMES DOESN'T MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

beside i am of the opinion, that in a healthy relationship it is always better to say if you are not happy with something, than beeing just quiet, and then leave suddenly (like others did).

I am currently single, but i'm sure that if i harassed my imaginary girlfriend as much as you guys harass Maxon she would have already punched me in the face with a sledgehammer. ;) Trust me, Maxon got the point, you want better rendering, they know it. There's no need to bring it up again now.

i also would really hope that at least the moderators would keep a moderate vioce
my 2 cent

stefan

you know stefan, we're also human beings, we're not robots. My apologies if i passed the line of what's polite and what's rude.

STRAT
06-14-2005, 08:45 AM
so when's the new AR comming out?






:p

ThirdEye
06-14-2005, 08:47 AM
so when's the new AR comming out?






:p

the same date of the old AR's: when it's ready ;)

anobrin
06-14-2005, 10:09 AM
What amazes me about all this is how it demonstrates the somewhat Bizzare emotional
investment ***Some*** people in web forums make in their software programs.
Save your emotions for your girlfriends/wives etc.( if you have one)
Think about how silly some of this {"im worried/nervous about what those other
apps are coming out with"} sounds:cry:

if you are that "nervous" that you have made a bad investment in C4D
then sell it to someone at reasonable price and and get a 3D program that you feel serves
your renderin/CA/modeling needs for the type projects you plan to undertake
its never too late for something like that

its just All the repetitive ,whiny hand wringing
in this forum that starts to grate after awhile

lllab
06-14-2005, 10:26 AM
its ok thirdeye,

i understand your points too for sure,
by the way- i didnt bring this up again, another started this thread.

once again i respect maxon greatly for the things they do, this is why i choose to work with it. i am looking forward for cool new things to come, i am still positive.

peace,
cheers

stefan

AdamT
06-14-2005, 01:40 PM
Well said Alberto, and I agree 100%.

Maybe some of you guys should spend more time in the Chaos and Splutterfish forums: "is it here yet? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? Why's it taking so long? Is it here yet? Is it here yet? What's taking so long? Is the sky falling? Is it here yet? We're dooomed!"

God knows I'm doing my part in the Maxwell forums. :)

lllab
06-14-2005, 02:10 PM
its right adam, i for myself didnt start this renderthing here for a long time, i know maxon knows and time will show as what they do...

i will be soon be more in chaos forum, right now we are learning vray, which is amazingly straight forward, more problems i have with the host app;-)

and that is also it is not so much about changing host app, but just hoping for more choice within cinema. Ar is great for a lot of tasks, s&t ist amazing and i love it, maxwell will be an option for some type of work, which is nice too (lets see the beta tomorrow), other renderengines would just complent cinema in a very elegant way.

so at the end all this has very much to do with cinema. i for myself am looking forward to siggraph, i guess this might an intelligent date for some major updates:-)

cheers
stefan

ThirdEye
06-14-2005, 04:10 PM
God knows I'm doing my part in the Maxwell forums. :)

You mean Poseidon, right?

AdamT
06-14-2005, 04:13 PM
You mean Poseidon, right?
Same thing, right? :)

JIII
06-14-2005, 04:27 PM
Sigh, I guess it's just the whole software worshiping thing. I have always said, have faith in Maxon they get the job done, maybe not as fast as you would like but when they DO deliver they deliver in a big way. You can be assured that the update to the renderer, when it comes, won't be buggy, laggy, or crash easily. We all know that's far more than most companies will give you. Worship Maxon, or any company, at your own risk but recognize what Maxon does, it provides a solid, crashfree application that is easy to use and customize. When maxon adds a feature they ensure that the entire application is both solid and more or less crashless, if you want loads of forced features that don't really work more than 10 percent of the time fine but that's not Maxon's game.

Basically, worship Maxon if you want but remember WHY you worship them and what they emphasize with their products.

rendermania
06-14-2005, 05:50 PM
Taking a 'wait for Maxon, they always deliver in the end' line on every single feature in C4D is totally counterproductive. It sends the message to 3rd party developers that their products basically have no chance of selling well on the C4D platform because people would rather 'wait for Maxon' to provide the same functionality. You're not going to see very many 3rd party render engines or VFX plugins coming to C4D if their developers become convinced that C4D folk only want to buy their tools from Maxon.

Take Maxwell for example. We miraculously have a version 0.4 Cinema bridge to Maxwell before the renderer has even hit beta. How did that happen? It happened because boatloads of C4D users showed up in the Maxwell forum actually asking for a C4D plug instead of going 'Nah, I'll wait until AR does unbiased rendering'. They saw a demand for their renderer on the C4D platform and they took the leap. Its the first serious 3rd party rendering product to get a bridge to C4D if I'm not mistaken, and that's kind of funny given how long C4D has been around.

This is simply the way the CG market works. If you characterize everything not built by Maxon as potentially buggy or inferior and expect all features to be built into C4D directly by 'the mothership', you'll simply wind up waiting longer for stuff that users of other software can just whip out their credit card for and buy. Its no accident that Max users have a huge range of plugins available to them. They actually demand and buy them.

AdamT
06-14-2005, 06:06 PM
Okay, but if you're goal is to entice third-party support ... GO ENTICE THIRD-PARTY SUPPORT!! Constantly whining about the lack of support in *this* forum isn't going to do a GD thing but annoy everyone.

Well, it was good to make the point here so Maxon would get the idea, but that was achieved a loooong time ago.

LucentDreams
06-14-2005, 06:28 PM
right, Rendermainia doesn't seem to get the point though. the Maxwell guys won't frequent the C4d forum, and I can guarantee you Chaos probably's never even been enticed to pop their head into our c4d forum here at cgtalk, thats because they'lll assume discussion here is mostly focused specifically on cgtalk. go to the Vray forum or the brazil one and start fighting for it there as you said:

" It happened because boatloads of C4D users showed up in the Maxwell forum actually asking for a C4D plug"













(not to mention the good pre existing relationship with next limit and cinema, and the support form maxon directly, and that they are doing it for all five major apps, I think the fighting for it is only the reason why we have one before XSI and LW to test, but we'd have gotten it either way)


anyways go there and fight, one discusssion on this subject a month would be nice, every two months even better.

danb
06-14-2005, 07:00 PM
Alright i gotta say this one point. When maxon upgraded to r9 it took them only a few months to overhaul the entire package to support N-Gons, integrate SPD, update the render module, make Mocca 2 and clothilde...etc...

This is monumental. The reason i mention this is because its almost been a year since a "typical major" maxon update, not including the minor point update. That has been their track record for the past few years. So i'm thinking that in this next release all these, "timeline, GI, CA, issues" will be cleaned up.

But if not and this still bothers you then, MOVE ON already.

ODoul
06-14-2005, 07:02 PM
I don't give a care about CA or rendering. I just want Maxon to integrate the "Make cute character" button.

duderender
06-14-2005, 07:06 PM
Like it or not CINEMA 4D's rendering is 5 years ahead of all the CA tools + plugins + whatever you want available in CINEMA 4D.

Also from now on: if you have any suggestions please send them to Maxon directly, ranting here is not an option. Maya can use Vray and Brazil? Cool, what should we do then? Send your suggestions to Splutterfish and Chaos Group, this is a C4D forum, not a "i want this and that" area. Thanks for your collaboration.

amen... come on people the only real way for changing cinema is to flood them with the requests. Seeing this threads every week or so is not really helping inform Maxon as to the changes you want.

ODoul
06-14-2005, 07:08 PM
Well, I can't speak for Maxon, but as ThirdEye said already, I'm sure that they get the point. Srek does work there after all.

duderender
06-14-2005, 07:13 PM
Well, I can't speak for Maxon, but as ThirdEye said already, I'm sure that they get the point. Srek does work there after all.

That doesn't really count. Srek is one voice and quite honestly a company doesn't respond without a significant amount of real feedback from its actual users. Srek saying everyone on the CGTalk forum says they want VRay doesn't cut it from a company perspective.

Or maybe Maxon puts all their faith in Srek....... no offense but I don't think so ;)

ODoul
06-14-2005, 07:21 PM
Good point Dude. I guess I didn't word that exactly the way I intended it to come across. What I meant to say (as ThirdEye has already said) is that it's obvious that Maxon pays attention to the forum here. Look what we did in regards to N-Gons, GI, etc. I feel bad for even participating in this thread because it represents something that I find so annoying here and that is the constant repetition of topics. This has to be the worst that I've seen it though.

Srek
06-14-2005, 07:34 PM
amen... come on people the only real way for changing cinema is to flood them with the requests. Seeing this threads every week or so is not really helping inform Maxon as to the changes you want.

I've stated it several times here and i do it again.
Feature requests have to be sent via the webform on the Maxon site.
Of course the input from users on this forum is taken into account, but it is very hard to determine the needs of the many from the voices of the few.

duderender: From the last thousand request via the webform exactly on request was made for a VRAY plugin and 7 for VRAY like rendering

Cheers
Björn

LucentDreams
06-14-2005, 07:47 PM
Alright i gotta say this one point. When maxon upgraded to r9 it took them only a few months to overhaul the entire package to support N-Gons, integrate SPD, update the render module, make Mocca 2 and clothilde...etc...

This is monumental. The reason i mention this is because its almost been a year since a "typical major" maxon update, not including the minor point update. That has been their track record for the past few years. So i'm thinking that in this next release all these, "timeline, GI, CA, issues" will be cleaned up.

But if not and this still bothers you then, MOVE ON already.

9.1 may not have been as feature packed as many other point upgrades, but typical fashion would make me say that "minor" is not an accurate desription. I mean 8.1 added HDRI among other features, usually the point upgrades do have some significant goodies.

Also, while R9 semingly came out fast with ngons and cloth and the likes, I can guarantee you the research into those things, especially cloth would have been much longer then the few months between 8.5 and 9.

Finally, an opinion, I do hope that future versions aren't done like 9 was, 9.1 involved a lot of fixes and improvements over several small but annoying things in R9. R9 was this awesome release with many shortcomings that 9.1 was needed to fix (hence why 9.1 had a lot less BIG features in it)

only time will tell whats new and when it comes.

The Illustrator
06-14-2005, 09:27 PM
I just want to chime in, and make a comment that is kind of off subject / kind of on. Could it be that some of the people who are complaining, weren't informed enough about all of the programs before making a decision? Now that they picked the program they thought was the right one for them and learned it, only to find out later that it really is not the best program for their needs. What I mean is that I am in that boat now, but everybody is so sarcastic and evil, and does not want to help because: no one wants to hear the "Which program should I use" question.

I am currently using Cinema 4D and it is the program that I feel the most comfortable with, WAY over Maya and a little over Studio Max. BUT, because no one here with knowledge of the ins and outs of 3D programs seems willing to assist me, and tell me if my huge commitment to learning a program is the right one. I try to give information like: I don't want to do animation or videogames, just still illustrations, but I also want a program that has good modeling tools and a very realistic and good renderer. Yet no one seems to want to assist me, I mean yeah, I can read all the specs on the websites and all of that crap, but to a non-3Der, I have no idea what that crap means yet.

So if I go off and learn a program that I THINK may be right for me, only to find out later that it is lacking in key areas, I would be very upset also. Now you have to go and switch programs (like a previous poster is doing) and that costs time and money. I do agree however, that coming to the wrong forums and complaining is not going to get you anywhere. You should send e-mails or post in the forums of your current 3D app, voicing what you want to see done and changed. Well, like I said, my post was kind of off / kind of on subject and I am sure that I will be talked about, but hey, whatever. I just wanted to voice my opinion because I am trying to make a final decision on a 3D app right now, and I am already frustrated (mostly by the lack of help and smart attitudes), so I can only imagine someone putting in years of learning only to find out that (for whatever reason) my choice was the WRONG ONE!

flingster
06-14-2005, 10:04 PM
guys...i know you're fed up with deflecting requests for this or that on here time after time...but i do think you need to reflect on product development here..maxons pace in this area is atm second to non...but if you want to continue selling seats and getting users to upgrade them you need to continue at a pace and get feedback from customers...the moment you start bitchin about what the customers are saying the moment you stop hearing..and well frankly thats the end of maxon...so i agree with you and advise customers to make posts to suggestion box this is the correct avenue to vent your spleens so to speak for customers and correct avenue for maxon to over achieve on expectation front. but i'm almost as sick of constant requests for renderers as i am constant requests to not post them...it is a forum and we should discuss requests and feature sets of the software here in my mind...just not repeatedly...so can we just cut each other some slack here...and this is both camps i'm talking to...cheers.
:shrug:

LucentDreams
06-14-2005, 11:36 PM
flingster we aren't saying never talk about other renderers, we are saying keep to once in a while, everyweek theres a discussion on this, its been talked to death times ten already. let it rest fo a while,s ee what maxon does, I mean do we need to discuss it every week? the point was made months ago that GI is no longer acceptable and there are several solutions that are way ahead of the game, I'm sre maxon going to do somethign about it so move on.

We know that maxon won't tell us until theres a version ready to release so its not like that are shunting us, they never say "your right we'll get on that and have a new version next month" so its been said, we know maxon's seen the comments at bare minimum as several maxon employees frequent the forum and one has posted several times. what they do will take time and its their decision when so repeating the same thign day after day is jsut annoyign everyone else here. I felt the same way about ngons. And no I don't think the constant barrage is what brought ngons, I saw a lot of the barrage like the ngon liberation front after ngons were already in development. now can anyone tel me how to greatly increase the sharpness of their renders as well as speeed using a single setting in the AA options? lets learn how to utilise the renderer now that our requests for a future version have been made.

duderender
06-14-2005, 11:47 PM
I am currently using Cinema 4D and it is the program that I feel the most comfortable with,

You've already answered your question.


P.S.
No matter what software you choose, other users are bitching about what it doesn't do and what it needs. So, stick to what you're comfortable with.

LucentDreams
06-14-2005, 11:50 PM
the illustrator, I think your statment applies to the purchase of anything your first time round, its hard to make an informedpurchase without knowing what to ask. Cars, homes, software, they are all the same in that regard

duderender
06-14-2005, 11:54 PM
Good point Dude. I guess I didn't word that exactly the way I intended it to come across. What I meant to say (as ThirdEye has already said) is that it's obvious that Maxon pays attention to the forum here. Look what we did in regards to N-Gons, GI, etc. I feel bad for even participating in this thread because it represents something that I find so annoying here and that is the constant repetition of topics. This has to be the worst that I've seen it though.

It's all cool 3D_Explorer. What I wanted to get across is that QA, project planning, gain for investment (ROI) is all done through metrics. That is to say quantitive input. I'm sure Maxon is interested in what users are saying in forums but submitting those through the proper channels at Maxon allows them to construct the metrics and put quantitive data to back their research.

duderender: From the last thousand request via the webform exactly on request was made for a VRAY plugin and 7 for VRAY like rendering

Srek, does Maxon publish much of what it gathers for users to see what the trends are? It's a shame that only 1 request came in for a Vray Plugin and yet we keep reading about it here.

Sounds like a rally is required to get users in the know on how to submit their requests.

The Illustrator
06-15-2005, 12:06 AM
I totally agree with you Kai, that is why I have tried in the past to give as much info as I can when I pose a question. I just get frustrated by many of the sarcastic and pricky comments by people who used to be in the same situation as me. There are alot of different variables in selecting a program like: Using a program that is not very popular in Americe (like Cinema) that I am comfortable with, or plugging away at a program that is more popular and used in America (like Max), that I am not as comfortable with. These are some of the variables along with some that I mentioned earlier, that a seasoned 3D vet could possibly help me with in choosing a program. Yet they see to like to get angey and make fun of me, rather than lend a helping hand.

flingster
06-15-2005, 12:22 AM
flingster we aren't saying never talk about other renderers, we are saying keep to once in a while, everyweek theres a discussion on this, its been talked to death times ten already. let it rest fo a while,s ee what maxon does, I mean do we need to discuss it every week? the point was made months ago that GI is no longer acceptable and there are several solutions that are way ahead of the game, I'm sre maxon going to do somethign about it so move on.



yup i agree with you...we don't need a this renderer is better than AR thread every week... i'm with you...kinda ignores just how good AR is imo. however constant battles between groups over posting these questions etc just add fuel to the fire so to speak... they obviously feel
1) they are not being listened to...hence repeating the arguement..lol.
2) they feel you don't want them to discuss alternatives.

i can't talk for motivations of posters and thread starters but what i'm saying is we are going around in circles here...

a) new renderer thread starts
b) complaints about thread start
c) complaints about renderer starts
d) defence of AR starts
e) defence of alternatives start
f) thread gets closed or turns into a slagging match...upsets a few people...people leave...people don't post...people are less likely to post...people feel they have to choose sides...i'm with this camp or that camp...forum ends up divided and the sarcastic posts begin...from then on posting standards slip and the forum is less useful that it was...end result? WE ALL LOSE...ENGAGE YOUR BRAINS GUYS BEFORE POSTING...REMEMBER JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE NOT IN THE SAME ROOM DOESN'T MEAN YOU CAN SAY WHAT YOU LIKE...BE POSITIVE..BE FRIENDLY AND HELPFUL...AND WE WILL ALL ENJOY IT A BIT MORE.
and despite how it might read this is not a sermon...you're all free to please yourself..but remember you define this space by how you post.

protocultura
06-15-2005, 02:05 AM
Most important than the brand of the pencil is what you can draw with it.

rendermania
06-15-2005, 02:09 AM
Most important than the brand of the pencil is what you can draw with it.

your pencil doesn't do light calculations.

Srek
06-15-2005, 06:33 AM
Srek, does Maxon publish much of what it gathers for users to see what the trends are?

Sorry no.


Using a program that is not very popular in Americe (like Cinema)

CINEMA is selling in the US like crazy. One of the reasons why Maxon can keep the development pace is that we can see in clear numbers that CINEMA is wanted.
Don't confuse installed basis with popularity. Max is much longer available on the US market then CINEMA and of course you will see a lot of installed versions of it out there. However when it comes to new sales this looks quite different ;)

On the general subject of Renderer integration
Although often requested the actual number of people who realy need and want VRay, PRman, Brazil etc. on CINEMA is comparably low. You have to keep one thing in mind. If Maxon were to mainly use a third party renderengine this would make them completely dependent on another companys product policy. CINEMA 4D 64 Bit would not have been possible that fast and neither the Intel Mac port. Maxon will continue to give CINEMAs own renderengine first priority above all third party engines since this is what the majority of the CINEMA users wants.
Third party renderer support will have to be done mainly by the makers of the renderer in question, like Next Limit is doing. Maxon gives free developer support and more to each developer who wants to do such an integration. I'm sure we will see this in the future.

Cheers
Björn

lllab
06-15-2005, 08:47 AM
i see that maxon will not make the plugin, thats clear.

but often it helps if they are in contact with possible makers of the plugin, saying " hey caos group" we have plenty of users wanting your renderengine for our platform- are you interested, how can we help you etc...something like this.

as for the requests, well there is one more now at least, in addition there are a lot of users out there, that do not communicate via the forums,a nd there much more potential users out there that would switch to cinema when there already would be a connection to vray!
i formyself know quite some.

my favorite thing would be an update to AR, that has blazing fast area shadows, blurry effects, all effects working behind alpha and transparency, and GI good and easy like in vray. and sometimes later a connection to all the other popular renderengines.

cinema is the only big package of the "big 5" soon that does not have a wider choice of renderengines( ok xsi "only" has MR)

just my thoughts

stefan

franz78
06-15-2005, 09:50 AM
i to all,
i am a cinema and i love it, i think that all aplication have some problem.
the greate point of cinema is the clean and powerful workflow.
is clean, i hope that maxon will update same function, like render engine and referenced file and.....
i see every day a lot of images of xsi and maya and....
and i thik this is my software, with cinema i dont make this, but the problem is not cinema is the user.

i should study!!

i knouw this is an extrem point of view.

ciao Franz

Ps: ThirdEye sei grande sono daccordo con te a tutti gli effetti

ThirdEye
06-15-2005, 10:24 AM
cinema is the only big package of the "big 5" soon that does not have a wider choice of renderengines( ok xsi "only" has MR)

Lightwave has just fprime and maxwell. XSI, as you said has only MR and Maxwell. CINEMA has Maxwell. Max and Maya are getting everything at the moment, but that doesn't mean things won't change, i have faith in this.

jerry0520a
06-15-2005, 10:35 AM
Like it or not CINEMA 4D's rendering is 5 years ahead of all the CA tools + plugins + whatever you want available in CINEMA 4D.

Also from now on: if you have any suggestions please send them to Maxon directly, ranting here is not an option. Maya can use Vray and Brazil? Cool, what should we do then? Send your suggestions to Splutterfish and Chaos Group, this is a C4D forum, not a "i want this and that" area. Thanks for your collaboration.

Yes, I do there send suggestion and add topic at their forum.

see this brazil r/s 2.0 in Maya.

jerry0520a
06-15-2005, 10:35 AM
Yes, I do there send suggestion and add topic at their forum.

see this brazil r/s 2.0 in Maya.

link here http://forums.splutterfish.com/blog/

AdamT
06-15-2005, 12:27 PM
XSI doesn't even have Maxwell ... yet. I think it's going to be some months before they even get an alpha plugin.

rendermania
06-15-2005, 04:14 PM
Third party renderer support will have to be done mainly by the makers of the renderer in question, like Next Limit is doing. Maxon gives free developer support and more to each developer who wants to do such an integration. I'm sure we will see this in the future.


Beyond a certain point, Srek, I would stop to think of C4D as a software and start to think of it more as a larger platform that a lot of different toolsets large and small can plug into. The popularity of software can waver over time - you may be the most popular today and in three or four years you suddenly get overtaken by Cool3D 5D XS or whatever. Platforms on the other hand can maintain their user base for a long, long time, because a lot of useful stuff other than its native toolset runs under that same platform and its overall functionality continously increases and diversifies.

There's a thousand uses for 3D software beyond stuff like broadcast graphics, multimedia animation, VFX and so on. You can have things like medical imaging, or storyboarding or realtime visualization modules plug directly into a 3D soft that extend the functionality of the platform tremendously. The same goes for game prototyping kits, new scripting languages, simulation authoring tools and so on.

The way to do it is to court outside developers quite actively. Encourage open source folk to develop new modules for C4D. Try to get computer graphics researchers at universities to prototype their stuff under C4D. Donate a few special use licenses to unusual projects like art performances and so forth. There is a lot of innovative stuff being done out there in the world of computing, and half of it never gets integrated into 3D software.

Srek
06-15-2005, 05:31 PM
CINEMA has the most flexible and powerfull SDK on the market. The SDK as well as the support is free. The functionality accesible via the SDK includes practicaly the complete CINEMA functionality.
Now what was this thing again you were talking about? ;)

I agree that Maxon marketing needs to emphasize these strengthes more then is currently done, but studios like Sony have already started to notice the hidden power of CINEMA.

Cheers
Björn

LucentDreams
06-15-2005, 06:03 PM
rendermania, your really overstepping the line in terms of telling others how to do their jobs imo without any real knowledge of how maxon works, you only see the small 5% of how maxon works, a really active betatester will typically see maybe about 30%, some who help do sales artist demonstration and such might see up to 40% of how maxon works (really rough esitimatiosn I migfht add) but we non of us really know what maxon does for its individual 3rd party support for each company.

You don't know how far maxon will go (for free) to help 3rd party developers get what they need. some not so much, some a lot, thats maxon's discrepancy, but most maya and XSI plugin developers would kill for that kind of support. Why aren't there as much 3rd party solutiosn for cinema compared to max and maya, well a lot of it would be the userbase. time and time again we've seen serious developers with great products not get sales for their plugins, Paul everett i'm sure could agree with this, only a few of his tools have been really successful financially I'd wager, look at Darf. granted he has seriosu marketing issues, the tools were impressive powerful and affordable when in comparison to those for maya and max, yet the purchases weren't there. Cinema isn't the $5 dollar plugin market it used to be, but its still in that $50 range now, which isn't where most developers want to be.

Now if you think you have all the answers to how maxon should market and sell, apply for a job or make your own app and market it.

Really theres three choices as a consumer.

1)if its not doing what you want, move on to someone elses product who will.
2)Get over it, learn workarounds if the app is still the best for everything else.
3)pickup another appplication and learn how to use them together. if you do this, you cna also take your in depth knowledge of howthe other app works and share suggestions with the developer to help them find the way in a useful and concise manner.

I choose option 3. Cinema CA wan't doing wha tI needed ages back, and hasn't been getting me the work I want, so I moved onto maya to learn more riggin and such. Now I use both, but I'm also takign a lot of what I learned in maya back to cinema, thats why I can rig in cinema like i can, because I learned from the maya userbase and applied, discovered cinema's tools weren't as bad as I thought, and that most limitations had workarounds. if i need to animate quick and easy I can do it in maya, if i want to use the several other benefits of cinema I'll take the extra time to do the rigging in cinema.

i constantly complain about tools and features in cinema to maxon, but I generally only take it to them, and when I do i tend to try and offer very specific solutions or exactly how it works in other apps. I want to see cinema improve as much as anyone else here (I'd dare say more then a lot) but I also know that comments need to be constructive, detailed, and left open for them to decide how to take it. I don't tell them how to do their jobs, I say that such and such will greatly benefit my job because.

protocultura
06-15-2005, 09:56 PM
your pencil doesn't do light calculations.
Rendermania, after your quote I can say 2 things:
1: You don't understand rhetorics.
2: My pencil does light calculations.

Pencil Light Calculation: Test 1
http://www.pixgel.com/pencil.jpg

Cheers.

LucentDreams
06-15-2005, 10:15 PM
Rendermania, after your quote I can say 2 things:
1: You don't understand rhetorics.
2: My pencil does light calculations.

Pencil Light Calculation: Test 1
http://www.pixgel.com/pencil.jpg

Cheers.
:scream:haha good one, i was figuring more of a ggraphite rendered sphere instead, but showign the actual paths is good too.

AdamT
06-15-2005, 11:08 PM
Reflections, bump, diffusion, SSS, GI--dude, you have GOT to check out my pencil! And it does it all in real time!! ;)

The Illustrator
06-15-2005, 11:17 PM
Hey Kai, you've got a PM.

LucentDreams
06-16-2005, 12:10 AM
Hey Kai, you've got a PM.

hehe send it via email and I'll answer it tomorrow, read it briefly a few hours ago but its going to need a long answer.

sorry for the off topic

and Adam, realtime is a bad term, its a lin tracing system with random sampled scatted lines (hatching) and special smoothing techniques to clean those samples (blending stump)

The Illustrator
06-16-2005, 12:18 AM
hehe send it via email and I'll answer it tomorrow, read it briefly a few hours ago but its going to need a long answer.

sorry for the off topic

and Adam, realtime is a bad term, its a lin tracing system with random sampled scatted lines (hatching) and special smoothing techniques to clean those samples (blending stump)

Thank You very much Kai I really appreciate your help, and I look forward to your response!

Sbowling
06-19-2005, 01:43 AM
I just started seriously looking at Cinema4D this weekend and just saw the renders in the cloth challenge and I've got to say I'm very impressed with htis program. I've been using lightwave for over 10 years now and the things in cinema4d have completely blown me away. I feel like I've been living under a rock when comparing the functionality between lightwave and c4d. One of my first tests was using the cloth dynamics to put a shirt on a character. I spent an entire day trying to do this in lightwave and never got it to work right. I spent about two hours with c4d following about two lines of instructions from the FAQ section of he web site and had it doing what I wanted. I next moved on to set up some bones and found the Mocca bone tools to work just as nicely as the lightwave bone tools, if not better. The way things stand there is a very good possibility that I will be buying this before the week is out. I just need to look into some workflow and render time issues, but as far as features and render quality go, you guys have it made with this program. I have been very impressed!

ngrava
06-19-2005, 10:12 AM
So, I have a question. What "Exactly" is wrong with the character animation tools in Cinema 4D? What feature's of Maya are you drooling over? I've seen people say they want a better timeline but I'm not sure what they mean by that. If you ask me, the timeline seems fine for the most part. It's not like Maya's is better of anything.

Also, aside from the lack of built in Motion blur and DOF (not as post plug ins), what "Exactly" is the problem with AR2? I see comparisons to other render systems and people say things like "It's years behind the times" but no one seems to be pointing to specifics.

-=GB=-

Byla
06-19-2005, 11:19 AM
Oh man, you want to go there again? Look, if you have experience with Maya and Cinema regarding character animation, you would definatly know the difference. Its a huge one. From cluster deformers to influence objects, constrains, two ways of rigging a character, fast feedback, component editor, joint oriented bones, trax editor, bla bla bla... almost same with timeline (and graph editor and some other stuff as well).

Stain777
06-19-2005, 02:24 PM
CINEMA is selling in the US like crazy.

I hope you guys catch up soon. My collegues and I are having a hell of a time finding somebody local to work on-site for freelance work. It's an ongoing problem, and we're getting pressure to switch to other packages with a larger installed base so that we're not burning our candle at both ends.

Secondly, if the user base was climbing so quickly why are some 3rd party companies leaving this platform? You may want to make them aware of the curve and profitability in the near future as they probably haven't been getting the kind of love it takes to support development.

I have to say that I had a tough Honeymoon with C4D, but have come to really like it's fast rendering engine and non-destructive modeling.

Srek
06-19-2005, 02:49 PM
why are some 3rd party companies leaving this platform?

So far i've counted one developer, David Farmer. Since all his tools were production oriented and more or less marketed only as secondary use i can't see the significance of this. Admitted his tools were among the most usefull, but to extrapolate from one developer to CINEMA plugin development in general is a bit to much imo.
There are also examples for the other way around, XFrog 4 was first available for CINEMA and only became available for Maya one year later.

Another thing is that new sales and installed basis are two very different things. CINEMA is comparably new to the US market and even with good sales it will take some time to gain the attention of plugin developers in the US.

Cheers
Björn

Stain777
06-20-2005, 02:07 PM
So far i've counted one developer, David Farmer.

Then it was my misunderstanding, I'd thought that there were more who were no longer supporting the platform.

Srek; It seems like there are many here who are blaming Maxon for not having the external rendering engines, but doesn't that initiative have to come from the 3rd party vendors? I mean; you guys appear to have created an environment that would allow them to move forward if they wanted to, but they haven't done so.

"You can lead a horse to water...", and all that.

AdamT
06-20-2005, 03:09 PM
I'd say that 95% of the responsibility goes to third-party developers, but Maxon might help tip the balance by reaching out and providing encouragement--even if it's just to let them know what's already available.

Stain777
06-20-2005, 03:32 PM
I'd say that 95% of the responsibility goes to third-party developers, but Maxon might help tip the balance by reaching out and providing encouragement--even if it's just to let them know what's already available.

How do you know that they aren't, do you have some insights into the workings of Maxon that you can share with the rest of us? If it's only 5% that's not a lot of leverage and it might take more of a "grass-roots" campaign to make the vendors listen.

As I recall, that's how Lightwave came to be on the Mac. A bunch of us howled until they heard reason and ported it over. That took years... ;)

jerry0520a
06-20-2005, 03:38 PM
How do you know that they aren't, do you have some insights into the workings of Maxon that you can share with the rest of us? If it's only 5% that's not a lot of leverage and it might take more of a "grass-roots" campaign to make the vendors listen.

As I recall, that's how Lightwave came to be on the Mac. A bunch of us howled until they heard reason and ported it over. That took years... ;)


sorry , are you using lightwave 8.5 ?!?

AdamT
06-20-2005, 04:01 PM
How do you know that they aren't, do you have some insights into the workings of Maxon that you can share with the rest of us?
They may be for all I know. I was just commenting on what they *might* do if they were so inclined. I would hope that they have some kind of developer outreach program. You can't make the horse drink, but you can at least lead it water. :)

anobrin
06-20-2005, 04:14 PM
sorry , are you using lightwave 8.5 ?!?

Well its listed in his signature
:wise:

Stain777
06-20-2005, 04:39 PM
They may be for all I know. I was just commenting on what they *might* do if they were so inclined. I would hope that they have some kind of developer outreach program. You can't make the horse drink, but you can at least lead it water. :)

I'm inclined to give our esteemed collegues from Germany the benefit of the doubt. They seem to be very reactive to our needs and appear to be forward-looking in their own development. If Srek is any indication of their quality of support to 3rd party vendors, they're well taken care of. :D

I think it all goes back to Srek's original point of the installed base. Viability for any 3rd party has to be whether it makes money, even in an unfriendly environment (Apple for example). They're going to pick the low hanging fruit first (large user base), then move to the tougher gains.

If we want movement on these applications, we all ought to be on their forums bending their ears (nicely).

AdamT
06-20-2005, 04:55 PM
Yep, I agree. They should take encouragement from Next Limit's experience with Maxwell, where Cinema users seem to be the second largest group behind Max users--and ahead of Maya, LW, and XSI.

Edwin Braun
06-21-2005, 07:51 AM
Yep, I agree. They should take encouragement from Next Limit's experience with Maxwell, where Cinema users seem to be the second largest group behind Max users--and ahead of Maya, LW, and XSI.

Heheh since when is the amount of users a measure for the success a plug-in will have? In your theorey it would make more sense to offer Truespace plug-ins. However, commercially it would mean suicide (we know this). There are millions of Truespace out there ... the only problem is it is millions of collectors and "small" people. They are used to pay nothing for their software. They will never buy anything or maybe they buy something for US$30. So you have a 1 million users potential but none of them will buy something!

I think it is the same problem you have with CINEMA 4D (not so big i hope) even if it was true that there are more seats out there than Maya. It would still not mean that you will earn anything if the "userbase" plays in the shareware or "I want everything for free" level. A "few" Maya users who know how much software development costs will make it worthwhile for a developer to spend a lot of time in developing for Maya.

So in the end, it is about making a business that will drive the developers towards a platform or away from it. This kind of market is not under control of the platform vendor (in this case MAXON). If the vendor attracts only users that are not willing to buy anything it is a problem for 3rd party software development.

I think you, the CINEMA 4D commnity, can change this very easy and make the product a real success, if you think plug-ins are needed for this.

regards
edwin

Sbowling
06-21-2005, 09:04 AM
There are also examples for the other way around, XFrog 4 was first available for CINEMA and only became available for Maya one year later.

Cheers
Björn

Seeing the Xfrog plugin for C4d on the xfrog website is what got me thinking about c4d again. I first looked at it many years ago (probably around 10) and wasn't too impressed at the time. This last bit of time spent with the demo and looking at the plugins available and the modular system sold me. Now if only safeharbor would finish processing my order and ship it out to me already. I mean, I ordered this Sunday, can't they have it here by now? It's been over 24 hours. :) Hopefully I'll have enough luck with this software that I will be able to convince my employer to buy a copy for at work. If i really like it I just might pay for it myself. So far I love the cloth dynamics in the demo. I could never get this stuff to work right in LightWave.

dan22
06-21-2005, 11:52 AM
If the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, you can bet the water bill is higher and on persistant noise polution due to high lawnmower activity.You should also make sure you get an all year round superior green grass garantee , because maybe this time next year it will infact be greener where you are now.So before anyone jumps over the fence , take a real good look at the grass first, especialy when its raining.And look out for muddy puddles which may be slightly out of view....

mfg
paul Everett

Love it !!!

And that also goes for so many things in life - not just 3D apps !

Cheers,

D.

AdamT
06-21-2005, 02:04 PM
> Heheh since when is the amount of users a measure for the
> success a plug-in will have? In your theorey it would make more
> sense to offer Truespace plug-ins. However, commercially it
> would mean suicide (we know this). There are millions of
> Truespace out there ... the only problem is it is millions of
> collectors and "small" people. They are used to pay nothing for
> their software. They will never buy anything or maybe they buy
> something for US$30. So you have a 1 million users potential but
> none of them will buy something!

Heh, I guess I'm one of the 10 people who actually bought the tS Pyrocluster plugin. :) Too bad Cebas didn't support it for long.

It's not a good analogy for Cinema, either, as Cinema costs about the same as Maya/XSI intermediate software.

> I think it is the same problem you have with CINEMA 4D (not so
> big i hope) even if it was true that there are more seats out
> there than Maya. It would still not mean that you will earn
> anything if the "userbase" plays in the shareware or "I want
> everything for free" level. A "few" Maya users who know how much
> software development costs will make it worthwhile for a
> developer to spend a lot of time in developing for Maya.

A fair point, but Maxwell isn't free and the relative activity of Cinema users there would indicate that Cinema users make up the second largest group of *paying* customers, behind Max but ahead of Maya and all the others.

> So in the end, it is about making a business that will drive the
> developers towards a platform or away from it. This kind of
> market is not under control of the platform vendor (in this case
> MAXON). If the vendor attracts only users that are not willing
> to buy anything it is a problem for 3rd party software
> development.

> I think you, the CINEMA 4D commnity, can change this
> very easy and make the product a real success, if you think plug-
> ins are needed for this.

Only to the extent that plugins are available to be purchased. If you follow this forum at all you know that there are probably 10,000 posts lamenting the lack of external render solutions for Cinema. The writing is on the wall for anyone who cares to read it.

Venkman
06-21-2005, 02:50 PM
When does the price of Maxwell Render go up? I need time to save- does it go up in October? If so I could save for a couple of months and then let grab it!

back on topic-
Maxwell render is very exciting to have as a renderer for Cinema 4d. I'm looking to join that insane camp!

Continuumx
06-21-2005, 02:51 PM
Heheh since when is the amount of users a measure for the success a plug-in will have? In your theorey it would make more sense to offer Truespace plug-ins. However, commercially it would mean suicide (we know this). There are millions of Truespace out there ... the only problem is it is millions of collectors and "small" people. They are used to pay nothing for their software. They will never buy anything or maybe they buy something for US$30. So you have a 1 million users potential but none of them will buy something!

I think it is the same problem you have with CINEMA 4D (not so big i hope) even if it was true that there are more seats out there than Maya. It would still not mean that you will earn anything if the "userbase" plays in the shareware or "I want everything for free" level. A "few" Maya users who know how much software development costs will make it worthwhile for a developer to spend a lot of time in developing for Maya.

So in the end, it is about making a business that will drive the developers towards a platform or away from it. This kind of market is not under control of the platform vendor (in this case MAXON). If the vendor attracts only users that are not willing to buy anything it is a problem for 3rd party software development.

I think you, the CINEMA 4D commnity, can change this very easy and make the product a real success, if you think plug-ins are needed for this.

regards
edwin

Hello Edwin,

I think you are using information that may be at least five years old. The current base of users of Cinema 4D includes those users who have moved from some of those expensive packages. Not to mention, the user base of Cinema 4D moved a long time ago beyond the gradeschool level that you seem to imply and are very much into the upper levels of professional tier of knowlege and technical sophistication in high-end 3D application of a software package.

What you have written may have been true 5, 6, or 7 years ago but I would definitely stress that you conduct more current focus group testing for this kind of development research.

A lot of us, know how important software development is for our platform and there is no problem for many person to drop $200 and more for Mesh Surgery, Storm Tracer, and DPIT2 to name a few. For many it is a no brainer, for the power that these tools bring to our platform. You have missed the boat for the potential that Cinema 4D platform has to offer and its users if this is your attitude towards us. It is no wonder we have embraced developers like Next Limit and will most likely become very loyal to larger developers such as them because they took a chance on our platform and it is paying off big!

I bought Storm Tracer instead of pyrocluster not because of the price difference but because Storm Tracer offered more in terms of versatility and is supported by very important and involved developers.

lllab
06-21-2005, 03:12 PM
hi edwin,

i understand your point,

but i think in the meanwhile there are quite many professional user, that are willing to pay for a good plugin what it is worth.

i would buy fr stage2 immediatly if it was available for c4d at the current price no problem:-)

i have bought maxwell immediatly( ok this was only 399.-), without even knowing what will come.

i also would buy vray if it was for c4d, i will upgrade to rhino 4 with brazil2.

i own almost every major plugin and addition for c4d available( jenna 1+2, CTP, dpit, ozone( +vue 5 infinite), sniper pro, meshsurgery, stormtracer, final touch( almost all paul everett stuff), patchit, photomatch, etc....) sure i forgot many, but i guess i have spent almost the same amount of money to the plugin developers as to maxon over time.

and i am sure there are hundrets of other users the same way here. so give us the good plugins and we will buy it!

cheers
stefan

rendermania
06-21-2005, 03:14 PM
Hello Edwin,

I think you are using information that may be at least five years old. The current base of users of Cinema 4D includes those users who have moved from some of those expensive packages. Not to mention, the user base of Cinema 4D moved a long time ago beyond the gradeschool level that you seem to imply and are very much into the upper levels of professional tier of knowlege and technical sophistication in high-end 3D application of a software package.

What you have written may have been true 5, 6, or 7 years ago but I would definitely stress that you conduct more current focus group testing for this kind of development research.

A lot of us, know how important software development is for our platform and there is no problem for many person to drop $200 and more for Mesh Surgery, Storm Tracer, and DPIT2 to name a few. For many it is a no brainer, for the power that these tools bring to our platform. You have missed the boat for the potential that Cinema 4D platform has to offer and its users if this is your attitude towards us. It is no wonder we have embraced developers like Next Limit and will most likely become very loyal to larger developers such as them because they took a chance on our platform and it is paying off big!

I bought Storm Tracer instead of pyrocluster not because of the price difference but because Storm Tracer offered more in terms of versatility and is supported by very important and involved developers.

You took the words right out of my mouth. C4D users on this board use additional software ranging from Zbrush 2, Motionbuilder, Messiah:Animate, Rhino, Maxwell, After Effects, Combustion, Syntheyes, PFhoe to plugins like NOTA, Spline Deformer, CD IK tools, Mesh Surgery, Stormtracer, DPIT, Xfrog, Shave and so on in various combinations. Thats not even mentioning NLE software, audio tools or people who also use XSI, Lightwave, Max or Maya alongside C4D. C4D users are also cross platform folk working on both Wintel and OS X.

In other words, C4D users very much buy additional tools that a) are powerful enough to deliver some tangible benefit and b) priced in the $200 - $1,000 range, with the price matching the functionality.

Kudos to Next Limit for being the first to support C4D with an external renderer. I think others will follow over time.

Stain777
06-21-2005, 03:41 PM
...Cinema users make up the second largest group of *paying* customers, behind Max but ahead of Maya and all the others.


Adam, I've got to ask where you get this information. I don't doubt you for a second, but I'd love to look at the figures indicating the installed base for each 3d package.

At least here in the US empirical evidence doesn't support it. As I've said before, it's a bitch trying to find guys in the NW who have ever used (or heard of) C4D.

AdamT
06-21-2005, 03:56 PM
I was talking abou the the number of Maxwell customers--not installed seats generally. Regarding Maxwell, I'm basing it on the poll in the Maxwell forums (which software do you use?) as well as the number of posts in their software-specific forums. There are already more posts in the Cinema forum than there are in the Maya forum, which has been up months longer. I don't have actual sales numbers though, so it's possible my estimate could be off.

Stain777
06-21-2005, 04:09 PM
I was talking abou the the number of Maxwell customers--not installed seats generally. Regarding Maxwell, I'm basing it on the poll in the Maxwell forums (which software do you use?) as well as the number of posts in their software-specific forums. There are already more posts in the Cinema forum than there are in the Maya forum, which has been up months longer. I don't have actual sales numbers though, so it's possible my estimate could be off.

Aha, I'm just wondering if Cinema users are just more outgoing and full of life than Maya users! ;)

If true, that alone would be a good reason to switch from Maya...

jondoe0ne
06-22-2005, 09:28 AM
hey guys please dont get annoyed with me for reopening the discussion but have you seen this:

http://www.yafray.org/index.php?s=10

it's a free renderer with lots of features, and if you check the gallery you'll be amased, at least i was... so i have this question: why can't cinema 4d integrate this 3rd party renderer in it's further development??? i thin that the gain would be awesome!!! imagine how it would be to use a program that can render exceptional pictures in a FREE 3rd party rendering engine!!!
so i have a question: is it hard to make cinema 4d work with yafray? and why do the max guys always have to be linked to all the renderers in the world????

Sbowling
06-22-2005, 09:47 AM
it's a free renderer with lots of features, and if you check the gallery you'll be amased, at least i was... so i have this question: why can't cinema 4d integrate this 3rd party renderer in it's further development????

The only way for a third party program to work with any other program is for the third party to make it work. Maxon can not take someone else's program and make it work with their own because they don't have the source code. If you really want someone to make a program their renderer work with Cinema 4d or any other program you have to ask the developer, not Maxon. I don't see why this is so hard for people to understand.

PS: I didn't see anything on this site that cinema4d can't do already. In fact, I thought a lot of the radiosity examples looked pretty bad.

kuui
06-22-2005, 12:57 PM
PS: I didn't see anything on this site that cinema4d can't do already. In fact, I thought a lot of the radiosity examples looked pretty bad.

that's not as important as the fact that new renderers on c4d make new cracks in the wall between c4d and any renderer developers. as maxwell did. i think maxqwll and its success on the c4d platform even due its price of 399$ (which is higher than basic vray, and thats a final!).

so.. i'm very sure, if not firm, that there are coming big things for our beloved app from friedrichsdorf

lllab
06-22-2005, 03:43 PM
some month ago vlado( the vray programmer) said regarding vray-c4d: we do the standalone app and once this is finished, everybody- a plugin developer or maxon will be able to do file exporters to the new vray file format.

so i guess a possible connection would not be too deep, but vlado said it would be very easy to to. for me such a connection would be enough.

may be this is more of a job for a plugin developer, or it is more like just another file exporter from within c4d(done by maxon).

so time will show i know, but maybe to vray connection could be a more reduced but easy thing, for it would be fine, i could modell animate etc in c4d and texture, light and render in vray. would be perfect.

but first i am looking forward for a cool cinema update:-)

cheers
stefan

rendermania
06-22-2005, 03:55 PM
The problem you'll have with any standalone renderer is scene translation times, whether its Maxwell or VRay. You'll get a translation time of 1-2 minutes per frame or possibly longer before the render even starts if you're doing stuff like 4-5 million poly scenes. Vray integrated as in Max or Maya would likely be much better from a performance standpoint.

I still wish Maxon would say something about the next render upgrade, even if its just some general info. Its hard to wait for mystery updates.

lllab
06-22-2005, 04:32 PM
why should this take that long?

as far as i understood vlado, you just save(export) as a file format like 3ds or fbx and it reads the animation and camera settings out of it?

maybe i am wrong but isnt this going very fast with fbx p.e.?

stefan

LucentDreams
06-22-2005, 04:56 PM
maxon opened up the R9 architecture so that plugin developers can now make their own renderers for cinema. I have a feeling that all they are going to do on that front. they have their own very capable renderer that they develop, if thirdparty renderers feel cinema is a good market then they can develop their own renderer using a standalone or a built in version, thats their choice.

why do you guys want a team as small as maxon to sacrifice a developer or two to developing bridge connections.

AdamT
06-22-2005, 05:33 PM
I guess it depends how easy it really is. If one guy who really knows his sh*t could do it in one or two days I'd be okay with that. Maxon could charge $50 or so for the plugin to pay for the time--or sell the plugin to Chaos or whoever.

lllab
06-22-2005, 05:48 PM
well maxon does syncro plugins for cad apps, for shockwave and other formats, i just thought if it is easy i wont hurt that much, but help VERY much.

and even more it could be a good job for a plugin developer (again if it is really that easy how they say), if this is a maintained plugin i would love to spend 150+ for it.

cheers
stefan

LucentDreams
06-22-2005, 05:59 PM
if you are referring to vectorworks:

A)is a sister company
b)it isn't developed by maxon but by a thirdparty and distributed by maxon. msot the formats maxon supports are standard formats to several apps not apps specific.

one exception to this would be the bodypaint plugins, but thats because BP is the standalone plugin app in that situation. C4D isnt the standalone plugin app.

Again for the umpteenth time seriously, take these requests to the guys who develop those renderers. If oyu really think maxon should do it, then use the rpoper maxon routes, but I've had enough of these weekly we need another rendereer discussions.

I may be abusing my rights as a forum leader in some peoples eyes, but I think the use of this thread is done. I'm sure that it will only be a few days before another one starts anyways.