New shader for C4D

[Katachi]

here is another one of my smilodon model:

http://www.the3ddesigner.de/bilder/transsmilo2.jpg

[CosmicBear]

the pictures look promissing. one little thing though. they all have been rendered with only one light. what happens if i add another light (or even more)?

[Katachi]

what happens? what should happen? The scene will be brighter. ;)

Here is an example where I used two lights in the back (left top, right bottom).

http://www.the3ddesigner.de/bilder/translucent.jpg

[matty2x4]

Hey Kaiskai LOVE the spinning moose! (mov 2) :love:
Such a great plastic look. It reminds me of somthing made by Alessi you know those over priced plastic things you get at the design stores. Looks like a great shader with some great potential.
Where do we get it from?
matty2x4

[Per-Anders]

this looks pretty good but i have a few questions about it

does this handle textures (such as veins)?

or different densities (the classic one being the hand with the bright light and bones showing through, or just stuff like marbles veins being a different material are of course not as translucent, or more translucent)?

what's the render hit, same as other sss plugins (about twice as long to render as with normal materials)?

does it deal with volumetric materials like ogo_hikari can or only sss?

if it can then does it handle things like chromatic abherration?

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by CosmicBear
the pictures look promissing. one little thing though. they all have been rendered with only one light. what happens if i add another light (or even more)?

Uhhm you need to watch translucent4.mov again, that has three lights and a sphere casting GI. Ths flickering is from low GI samples and accuracy. So yes it works, you should use at least one light, as GI won'twon't cast light through :( but you can use any number of lights you want.

Chromatic aberation, well no :( with the colour gradient there is a limit of three colours unfortunately as the programmer felt a complex gradient would be much more than needed, but you could mix this with the spectral shader for a decent fake, I know not the real thing but the main focus was that they saw the demand for an SSS shader, and saw that the two available, while both decent in some situations wer both quite limited.

You can fuse it with textures quite well, I haven't had much time to test the new version for glass and such, but think with 3D noise you could do some really cool things.

[derwolpertinger]

so when will this shader approximately be available? can't wait cause it looks very good! :bounce:

[TimC]

here's one of my test renders

without translucent

http://www.hypa.tv/tims/dragon.jpg

with translucent

http://www.hypa.tv/tims/dragon_DoF_01.jpg

I'm rerendering the this as it is a bit blown out on the highlights.

What do you think?

TimC

[LucentDreams]

hey tim did you use the new FAKE (fake front) option Arndt has included, this should help with the blown out highlights using the diffuse ability.



As for the plugin, here is a link to where it will soon be available, there is still some testing going on, but arndt wants to really build the interest. And also an image of the current pro dialogue (may change an itsy bitsy bit before final release.


http://www.creativecow.net/dairy_store/affiliate_programs/arndts_plugins.html
http://www.vonkoenigsmarck.de/Translucent/Dialog.jpg

[Jan]

Great stuff, but when will it be available? Has Arndt announced any date yet?

[LucentDreams]

no he hasn't, but I konw he is pretty anxious to get it out, there is a newer version which adds some features we liked in the first version. so it is even mor efunctional than it was when I posted this. I thinks its almost done, stills an small issue or two. Part of the slow process with testing this has been the major advancements in each version mean the testers have had to relearn everythng for each version and rebuild shaders since they didnt work in the newer versions to well. He's trying to make sure this is the end all of SSS plugins until the real thing is avaiable i think. The only hinderence so far has been pointed out by MV which is that this will not work with a GI only source you need at least one light. but with the new light exclusion in R8, only XL 7 users will have to worry about that, and they can use render tags ;)

[michaeli]

What could be done with the free(simple) version?

[LucentDreams]

Originally posted by michaeli
What could be done with the free(simple) version?

Everything in my examples. they are all done with the equivalent of the free version.

[Katachi]

Not yet. Arndt is reworking some parts of the algorithm that gives now even better results. Please be patient.

[michaeli]

has it been finished?:)

[LucentDreams]

no not yet, Arnd't is really reworking a lot of it now, this is one really top notch and still getting better.

[sad]

can't wait to get my 8bundle and this incredible sss-plugin!
:applause:

[michaeli]

Sorry to bother, has it been finished?:rolleyes:

[chris_b]

... i have been dying to get my hands on translucent since
it was announced over a month ago. Arndt is probably waiting
the final US release of R8 before making the plug available...

Oh man .... I can't wait to get my hands on this one :drool:

One Question: Can translucent simulate the effects of SSS where
one object is embeded within another (i.e. an embryo inside an egg)?

-c

[Katachi]

There seems to be a bug in the COFFEE SDK so that the shader cannot get full power Arndt wants him to have (more than he already has). He is awaiting answers from the MAXON Programmers asap. Then he will make the shader available.

[DeathCarrot]

Damn, i want this!

[Katachi]

Stop swearing! ;)

[solarblue]

well looking at the bhodinut forum, Maxon certainly dont seem to care at all for third party developers, so based on that why would they be helpful to another person who needs answers from them?

unfortunately...

[Katachi]

Originally posted by solarblue
well looking at the bhodinut forum, Maxon certainly dont seem to care at all for third party developers,
Well, I don´t want to start a discussion about the Bhodinut "prob", but just because Bhodinut said they wouldn´t get enough support you are shooting on MAXON? The third party developer support in the plugincafe is 100% and absoulutely fantastic! There is no doubt that this is the case. (Sterner is the master) Anybody who says something against this is IMO 100% wrong and should seek for a new job!

But what concerns further going support (case Bhodinut) I can´t judge that. But MAXON says that Bhodinut has received any support that was possible to give.

So how are you able to judge which one is true and who is not? And even more, what kind of support was provided in reality?

I don´t wanna say Bhodinut is lying, BUT either way I don´t want to say that MAXON is lying. So in such a case it is best to say nothing. :shame: ;)


so based on that why would they be helpful to another person who needs answers from them?

unfortunately...

I experienced always good support from the MAXON Dev Support. And I am absolutely sure they will give good support in Arndts case too.

Best
Samir

[sad]

bhodinuts main trouble is marketing!

they create a plugin. the don't really adertise it (bad marketig: come to our forum and look what's new?). they blame anybody especially the users for not suporting/buying 'em.

my 1 cent

[solarblue]

its nice to hear a more optimistic view, i guess i was reading the bhodinut site too much! ;)

[flingster]

TimC: can you give me any info on how you managed to get that porcelain look/feel to the dragon test render. Or I was wondering whether anybody had any thought on how to achieve a china look to say a tea cup? thanks.

[Per-Anders]

I should stress that I don't know the full situation behind either party, but having listened on these boards for a while you can get a certain picture in your head and for me the one that pops up seems to be like this:

I don't think that BhodiNUT has ever said that the SDK support was anything other than totally 100% great and amazing... however the issue of the SDK and Maxon's support of third parties is another thing (i.e. holes in the SDK, partial and poor documentation, lack of certain SDK functionality... i.e. explicit interface IO for one thing, the failing to remedy the problems with the SDK when pointed out, and in fact geting quite peeved when these problems were pointed out, rather than just being like newtek or a|w and going "hey, jeez, sorry, you're right! ok i can see that's a big problem, let me get that fixed right away." and fixing it... doesn't that strike you as odd behaviour?).

I believe BhodiNUT's concern is that they spend rather a long time trying to work out what's not working with the SDK and debugging that rather than coding their plugins, and the fact that a number of their projects have had to be shelved as a result (while awaiting SDK functionality and completion that it seems is less and less likely to come).

But this is just my view on things as someone outside of both organisations. I have however seen some of the stuff BhodiNUT is doing right now and it's very very cool and of course useability and interface seem top priorities :) So don't think that because they're currently quiet they're not up to anything.

[LucentDreams]

Well said Sadie, one othernote, Darf's comments regarding lack of support from users and lack of purchases, true they don't go on huge marketing scheme, they advertise at the two main forums with a quick spiel and rely a lot on word of mouth. However, Darf does inquire as to whether people want certain things for example an NPR renderer, there is a lot of interest in the plugin but the thing is fifty people while it may seem a lot isn't, and then there is the fact as to how many will actually buy it, and how many will complain about it afterwards. They live off of the money they make, they need to make sure they aren't wasting their time on developing stuff that won't get bought, they need to make prices that will guarantee the sought amount which typically means higher price and slightly less customers, cause the five dollar plugs may be bought by 100 people, but bhodinut can sell a plugin for 150 dollars, sel it to five people and make 750, its in the math, hardcore users know the power of their plugins and typically don't need they deep documentation so Bhodinut knows that they need to focus their products on the higher end clientel of the C4D community. I wish I owned Jenna, I think I could do a ot with it, but I still don't have the money for it so I'm SOL, but its not a plugin that the basic user needs. So then people get upset, when they wouldn't buy it unless it was a five dollar plug.

[Katachi]

Originally posted by mdme_sadie
I don't think that BhodiNUT has ever said that the SDK support was anything other than totally 100% great and amazing...Oh they did.
however the issue of the SDK and Maxon's support of third parties is another thing Only partial. Couldn´t think of any better support. Also as a third party developer. They (talking of certain programmers from MAXON) even help out compiling plugins for third party developers when it´s critical!!! (see paul e.) Tell me any other big software developer who do that ?!(i.e. holes in the SDK,what holes? Bhodinut wanted support beyond the SDK functionality. That has nothing to do with the SDK IMO.partial and poor documentation whaaat?? 1. We do have a SDK (this is NOT a usual thing! 2. The docs are very good! 3. partial only because it is almost a one man show! (see mr. sterner). But I would never call it partial. Some things didn´t make it into the first release of the new SDK, but check the new range of functionality. , lack of certain SDK functionality... how to define a lack in SDK Functionality? IMO It is MAXON who provides the SDK. If they do not want to give access or do not have currently the chance to give access to deeper functions then it is up to them, and not up to third party developers IMO. And to be honest, the new C++ SDK is the best ever. And I am not the only one who has this opinion.i.e. explicit interface IO for one thing, the failing to remedy the problems with the SDK when pointed out, and in fact geting quite peeved when these problems were pointed out, rather than just being like newtek or a|w and going "hey, jeez, sorry, you're right! ok i can see that's a big problem, let me get that fixed right away." and fixing it...
Don´t forget that Newtek or a|w staff is about a billion times more people than MAXON has!! They have 20 people who care all day about the SDK and can react immediately. But MAXON has 1 man (maybe 2), who does a hell of a job, who keeps the SDK Docs up to date etc.. [/quote]


I believe BhodiNUT's concern is that they spend rather a long time trying to work out what's not working with the SDK and debugging that rather than coding their plugins,

ok that´s a point that is partially right IMO.

and the fact that a number of their projects have had to be shelved as a result (while awaiting SDK functionality and completion that it seems is less and less likely to come).
If they do not finish their plugins because something in the SDK is not provided, sorry, then it´s not the fault of MAXON or of the SDK. There is always! a way to solve a problem, there is always a workaround (99%). That´s the main focus of a programmer. Finding a way.
So don't think that because they're currently quiet they're not up to anything.
Nobody expected them to stop developing. I even HOPE they keep on coding. They are for sure on top of the stairs.

[flingster]

(imho) i really think both maxon and bhodnut need to get a grip here....because from a PR point of view continued talk on forums of this nature....friction etc....this generally gets messy for both parties....they should stick to what they are good at "software development" and get on with it....not place doubt in customers eyes as to whether products will, won't, can't be developed....this is only likely to put buyers off in the long run as they take the wait and see route.

It seems from reading this thread that maxon are very happy with the best yet sdk and bhodinut are pushing the envelope in its usage....as a c4d user i'm happy about r8 and its press coverage, i'm also happy bhodinut continue to develop for c4d userbase rather than go elsewhere...i'd rather here about what makes both companies so good at what they do in comparison to the competition than their "speculative" grievances.

Ultimately however this thread is about a "New shader for C4D"

[Per-Anders]

well this is just the view of an outsider like i said.

third parties surely are there to bring new concepts and power to any package. asking for the ability to do so shouldn't get you blackballed.

having an sdk is not the exception to the rule unless you count in freeware, shareware and minor programs. in the world of professional 3d every single application has an SDK. In fact by definition every single app including the freeware stuff has an SDK, it's just that it's not always public... after all how do you presume the programmers made their app in the first place? Why repeat lines of code when libraries are there to make life easier?

AFAIK an SDK is in general terms the same set of libraries that the original programmers used to construct and generate the interface and controls that make up the perifery of the program. Adobe have SDK's, macromedia have SDK's, Newtek have SDK's, A|W Maya is in fact a fully integrated SDK but not many people seem to be aware of this... MELscript isn't just an expression system, MEL is Maya, and Maya is constructed using MEL. Avid produce an SDK, Discreet have an SDK... now which is the exception here? All of those app's are profesional level graphics programs, all of their SDK's are in fact the same SDK's that the programmers used to develop their apps, all of their SDK's allow for complete control of all aspects of the package that were originally coded using those self same libraries. Now we come to the C4D SDK, which by comparitive study seems rather lack-lustre, all of those other apps consider the SDK an integral part of the application, Maxon seems to view the SDK as something to be developed almost seperately from the central core application, and in fact not to be a part of teh application at all, but a means of controlling how people code their plugins for C4D. Now sorry, but the way other manufacturers work makes it seem like they consider 3rd party support a priority. Now which of these situation in the exception may i ask? Now if it's Maxon... are you going to stand in front of everyone here and say that? Maxon is the exception because if you are then are you not saying that C4D is not a Professional level 3D application because it's the exception to the rule of the Professional 3D application world. Are you willing to say that again?

If a third party seeks to expand a products potential. What gain is there to be had by blocking that third party? If they ask for a feature in the SDK or point out a hole, or an area that is claimed to be complete but isn't... why then have the line that "But MAXON says that Bhodinut has received any support that was possible to give." followed by "Bhodinut wanted support beyond the SDK functionality. That has nothing to do with the SDK IMO." why is it beyond the SDK? Why should it be? Why should the SDK then be a limitation stopping such functionality? To what ends and what goal? Why bother to develop and improve a program if improving the program is "Beyond the scope of the SDK" is not the sdk's scope in fact there to improve a program?

Then there's the SDK support team. This is my view only but... if the SDK was complete, and if the SDK allowed full functionality nearing that of any of Cinemas competitors, and most importantly if the documentation could compare, and we're talking about people who code for the package who actually used it seeing the documentation, maybe even peopple who've used other SDK's comparative products SDK's and if that documentation for C4D could compare... well.. if it was complete on time with the application release, if the SDK was complete (sorry but it's no, go tot he developers forum... read the SDK questions again, anyone can see "GV disclaimer: The GV API (everything in c4d_gv) is currently unsupported and might change in the future." and many other instances of oh there's a hole here type scenarios. Read the old archives and there were issues there too, not to mention your own admition that "There seems to be a bug in the COFFEE SDK so that the shader cannot get full power Arndt wants him to have (more than he already has). He is awaiting answers from the MAXON Programmers asap. Then he will make the shader available." which goes totally against your later query of "What holes?") then would the SDK support team need to be there so much? Looking at the forum on maxons site to me it seems that Darf and Mikael get along very well. I've seen him post many times on various forums where he starts off with the (here paraphrased) disclaimer that "The support I get from Mikael is superb, he works his arse off for us developers".

Now let us look at general support. Maxon has two people on SDK support as far as I know. C4D's worldwide user base in issue 26 of 3d world (this summer, but rather a long time before release 8) was an setimated 62,000. Now let's look at the top of the hill... SoftimageXSI... worldwide userbase of 15,000. Neither company totally independent. Average price of package at time of article C4D (XL7 only, no plugs) $1695, XSI (lets not go for the base model here, instead the Essential Enterprise Model at a nice) $7995, now lets see what worldwise sales at those values would represent... hmmm... well, that works out at total value for Maxon of $105,090,000 (sans plugins/modules) and Softimage are earning around $119,925,000. So bearing in mind that Maxon is the newcomer as I have been told before... seems strange that Softimage can afford those 20 while Maxon only the 2... neglecting the returns on secondary support and plugin income that both compnies get... should we argue about the number of people employed to work on SDK support?

Sorry you arguments are nonsensical and deletorious IMO to the cause of Maxon. A far greater argument would be "Maxon tries."

It would be good to hear... "Maxon has seen there have been some issues, and will resolve those issues for the benifit. Maxon listens, Maxon learns, Maxon is commited as a company, not just from the SDK support team, but right through to the programmers behind the product and all members of the staff to supporting third party developers large and small just as it supports it customers. Maxon see's the potential of every customer to be a developer. Maxon want's every customer to help develop Cinema into the package to beat all comers. Maxon doesn't underestimate."

But once again, it's just an view.

[darf]

Originally posted by sad
bhodinuts main trouble is marketing!

they create a plugin. the don't really adertise it (bad marketig: come to our forum and look what's new?). they blame anybody especially the users for not suporting/buying 'em.

my 1 cent

Well, marketing is an issue. We have been trying to think of new ways of becoming better, but alas, it is not what we want to do. We create things, refine them, do our best to document them, and then release them to the public with the easiest purchasing system we could build. The marketing always comes at a time when we are drained. We will try to do better.

The comment, and I quote, "they blame anybody especially the users for not suporting/buying 'em." is offensive. We do not blamed users for anything. The users have always been supportive and continue to be so.

darf - bhodiNUT

[darf]

Originally posted by Designer
Well, I don´t want to start a discussion about the Bhodinut "prob", but just because Bhodinut said they wouldn´t get enough support you are shooting on MAXON? The third party developer support in the plugincafe is 100% and absoulutely fantastic! There is no doubt that this is the case. (Sterner is the master) Anybody who says something against this is IMO 100% wrong and should seek for a new job!

My issue is with the documentation. Is the SDK documentation for v8 complete in your opinion?

The support I have received recently on PluginCafe has been excellent, but it does not replace completed documentation.

But what concerns further going support (case Bhodinut) I can´t judge that. But MAXON says that Bhodinut has received any support that was possible to give.

So how are you able to judge which one is true and who is not? And even more, what kind of support was provided in reality?

I don´t wanna say Bhodinut is lying, BUT either way I don´t want to say that MAXON is lying. So in such a case it is best to say nothing. :shame: ;)

You already did say something, why try to negate your opinion by the last sentence? Very odd...

David Farmer

[Katachi]

Originally posted by mdme_sadie
having an sdk is not the exception I was talking the docs are not usual.[/quote]
Now we come to the C4D SDK, which by comparitive study seems rather lack-lustre, all of those other apps consider the SDK an integral part of the application, A lot of Softimage Programmers consider the MAX SDK to be a lack in itself. The Max Programmers say the MAX SDK is gives deeper access than any other SDK and so on. Everyone thinks every SDK is the best or worst. This is speculation and subjective. With the C4D SDK anything is possible. Maxon seems to view the SDK as something to be developed almost seperately from the central core application, and in fact not to be a part of teh application at all, but a means of controlling how people code their plugins for C4D.This is speculative again. Don´t see any reason stating this. Now sorry, but the way other manufacturers work makes it seem like they consider 3rd party support a priority. Now which of these situation in the exception may i ask? Now if it's Maxon... are you going to stand in front of everyone here and say that? Maxon is the exception because if you are then are you not saying that C4D is not a Professional level 3D application because it's the exception to the rule of the Professional 3D application world. Are you willing to say that again? I don´t know if I understood this right (you should use more full stops in your sentences when talking to foreigners) but who is talking Cinema is an exception? Anything I said so far I would repeat once again till somebody gives me some proves that the SDK is bad. Not only saying that it is bad, but showing me the "big" lacks.
If a third party seeks to expand a products potential. What gain is there to be had by blocking that third party? If they ask for a feature in the SDK or point out a hole, or an area that is claimed to be complete but isn't... why then have the line that [b]"But MAXON says that Bhodinut has received any support that was possible to give." followed by "Bhodinut wanted support beyond the SDK functionality. That has nothing to do with the SDK IMO." why is it beyond the SDK? Why should it be? Why should the SDK then be a limitation stopping such functionality? To what ends and what goal?So you want unlimited access to the software? But that´s not possible. If anybody wants to have unlimited access he should try to get a job at MAXON. It is not as easy as you think it is to provide any functionality the third party developers want to have. But that is one of the reasons Cinema 4D runs that stable. You want more functionality? MAXON has to speed up support and the access to more functionality? Ok but then do not scream out loud that plugins will crash Cinema 4D more often and faster than ever! Cause more functionality, made available fast without thinking too much about it, just to make third party developers happy will increase the gaps in the software coming through third party plugins. There are a lotta reasons why functionality can´t be provided. And MAYA, MAX etc. are in business (and I mean in big business) a "bit" longer. And as I have already stated, the SDK Team is about I don´t know how much bigger than MAXONs is.Why bother to develop and improve a program if improving the program is "Beyond the scope of the SDK" is not the sdk's scope in fact there to improve a program?Improving a programm by giving access thru the SDK and open up all doors to "internal" code is not the same! Cause that´s what beyond the scope means.

Then there's the SDK support team. This is my view only but... if the SDK was complete, and if the SDK allowed full functionality nearing that of any of Cinemas competitors, and most importantly if the documentation could compare, and we're talking about people who code for the package who actually used it seeing the documentation, maybe even peopple who've used other SDK's comparative products SDK's and if that documentation for C4D could compare... well.. if it was complete on time with the application release, if the SDK was complete (sorry but it's no, go tot he developers forum... read the SDK questions again, anyone can see "GV disclaimer: The GV API (everything in c4d_gv) is currently unsupported and might change in the future." and many other instances of oh there's a hole here type scenarios. see answer above. Build a car with two men, and build a car with 100 men. Who finishes first? Read the old archives and there were issues there too, not to mention your own admition that "There seems to be a bug in the COFFEE SDK so that the shader cannot get full power Arndt wants him to have (more than he already has). He is awaiting answers from the MAXON Programmers asap. Then he will make the shader available." which goes totally against your later query of "What holes?")
No it is not. We are talking the C++ SDK. Arndts Shader is written in COFFEE that is not updated and therefore doesn´t belong to this discussion at all (and Bhodinut uses only the C++ API).
Looking at the forum on maxons site to me it seems that Darf and Mikael get along very well. I've seen him post many times on various forums where he starts off with the (here paraphrased) disclaimer that "The support I get from Mikael is superb, he works his arse off for us developers".
I am aware of that. Nobody said that this isn´t the case or that he quoted otherwise. Read my answers more carefully.

Now let us look at general support. Maxon has two people on SDK support as far as I know. C4D's worldwide user base in issue 26 of 3d world (this summer, but rather a long time before release 8) was an setimated 62,000. Now let's look at the top of the hill... SoftimageXSI... worldwide userbase of 15,000. Neither company totally independent. Average price of package at time of article C4D (XL7 only, no plugs) $1695, XSI (lets not go for the base model here, instead the Essential Enterprise Model at a nice) $7995, now lets see what worldwise sales at those values would represent... hmmm... well, that works out at total value for Maxon of $105,090,000 (sans plugins/modules) and Softimage are earning around $119,925,000. So bearing in mind that Maxon is the newcomer as I have been told before... seems strange that Softimage can afford those 20 while Maxon only the 2... neglecting the returns on secondary support and plugin income that both compnies get... should we argue about the number of people employed to work on SDK support?
Could you tell me the sources where your calculations come from?
I would be very interested in them. please provide links. thx.
Sorry you arguments are nonsensical and deletorious IMO to the cause of Maxon. A far greater argument would be "Maxon tries."So you doubt they are trying?

It would be good to hear... "Maxon has seen there have been some issues, and will resolve those issues for the benifit. Maxon listens, Maxon learns, Maxon is commited as a company, not just from the SDK support team, but right through to the programmers behind the product and all members of the staff to supporting third party developers large and small just as it supports it customers. Maxon see's the potential of every customer to be a developer. Maxon want's every customer to help develop Cinema into the package to beat all comers. Maxon doesn't underestimate." If you do believe that they are not doing any of these things, I would say you should maybe change the application? Sorry, but this really sounds as if you are not satisfied with the app at all. OTOH if you are, it seems you are putting to much weight on third party developers. Don´t you think that it´s getting harder and harder if the users put more and more weight on third party developers than on MAXON itself? Well, me I wouldn´t be motivated thru that. I don´t want to say "hey stop supporting Bhodinut" or anything similar. They are for sure one of the best thing that happened to C4D. They bring good new functionality and great Plugins, but hey, there will always be limits and as a third party developer or even more, as a programmer, you have to live with the limits. My brother cries every day when he returns from work that C++ is like Sh**.

[Katachi]

Originally posted by darf
My issue is with the documentation. Is the SDK documentation for v8 complete in your opinion?

The support I have received recently on PluginCafe has been excellent, but it does not replace completed documentation.

Nobody said you didn´t. Read my ansers more carefully either. Case Bhodinut comes with further going support. And no the Doc is not complete. I didn´t say it is complete. But I would never say it is a partial documentation. It´s just not complete.

You already did say something, why try to negate your opinion by the last sentence? Very odd...
David Farmer
I´m not negating my opinion but the discussion.
(which turned out to flood this thread now I guess)

[Per-Anders]

stats from 3dworld one of teh leading magazines in our field.

www.3dworldmag.com

issue 26, roundup of all apps, Maxon and Softimage submited this information to 3dworld i gather freely. The other manufaturers choose not to disclose figures.

I totally agree with you... the docs are not normal. Now please... documentation is now the exception? Sorry but in the world of professional 3d apps documentation is far from the exception. Go once more, look atht e Lscript documentation, look at the Melscript documentation, look at the documentation for any of the leading apps... then look at C4D's. Which one is the exception?

You state that we shouldn't put pressure on third party developers. Well who said we were? We're merely giving them a free reign. Do Alias|Wavefront cause their userbase to put pressure that can't be taken onto the developers for their product by having full control and access to their program? You're saying that by having a good SDK too much pressure will be put on third party developers... sorry that's just nonsense.

having good SDK and docs doesn't put pressure on third parties... unless you count the fact that third party development will be decided by studio need. Go and look at highend3d.com. How many plugins for Maya? Softimage?

You state there are no holes in the C++ SDK... i gave an example that showed otherwise.. what on earth are you thinking of? Are you really going ot claim that the documentation is as complete, thorough and in depth as lightwaves SDK? or even Max's SDK? Let us think again... you cite how other developers for other platforms don't like the SDK's of other products... it's a shame that that's not the case for C4D then isn't it?

I do specualte it's true... as do a lot of people. You'd do as well to remember that, as would MAXON.

A big lack in the SDK. Make me a plugin that allows total scripting of the interface. I want feedback of each button pressed and where so that i can make my own macros by recording a "history" of my actions. I want to then be able to assign hot keys to these new "buttons" that i make with this system. I want to be able to read the code that is produced by this in an output window and not only that i want to be bale to ammend it so that for instance if i create a primitive sphere, i can change the values of teh sphere that are created at creation point, to make a sphere that is for instane of radius 100 instead, and then be able to assign that script to a button directly. Tell me, out of the following applications, which one can't do this? Cinema 4D, Maya, Lightwave, SoftimageXSI, 3DStudioMAX.

Now lets consider COFFEE. Should I be cruel and compare it to any of teh scripting langauges in any of hte other applications? What about it's SDK? No? Oh we've already covered that there are bugs... well, how's about it's Debugging ability? Oh that too eh? Let's just leave COFFEE for the moment then.

C++... do you really want me to do a uik bbedit search through them to find the word "Hack"? Sorry... is that a translation error?

I don't want unlimited access to the software particually. I never said I did. But I don't think that limited access is a good way to go. If there's a function call there.. i don't want to be able to see the function, i don't care how the function works implicitly aside from that it should result in an accurate evaluation. however I do want to kow what the function name is, what the output is meant to be, what inputs it's expecting and if any other SDK documentation out there is to go by a small example showing the call being made correctly in minor context. The functions should evaluate as expected, and if they don't then the result of pointing this out should be a correction to the function or if that's not possible to the documentation. This is what is called a thorough SDK. This is within the scope of an SDK. It's really pretty simple, but it would seem that this is beyond the realms of the C4D SDK.

Personally I don't want to develop for C4D. I do however want to see third parties developing for C4D. I so often hear though that "It can't be done" when already other professional level 3D applications have "it" that one can't help but ponder why it can't be done with Cinema. And even the laziest researcher could quickly find a lot fo hints on the forums, the Maxon Developers forums, wherever one looks. Of course this is all speculation.

Now i'd just love to hear your definition of incomplete, and of partial, to hear how they differ.

Partial:
ADJECTIVE:
1. Of, relating to, being, or affecting only a part; not total; incomplete: The plan calls for partial deployment of missiles. The police have only a partial description of the suspect. 2. Favoring one person or side over another or others; biased or prejudiced: a decision that was partial to the plaintiff. 3. Having a particular liking or fondness for something or someone: partial to spicy food. 4. Mathematics Of or being operations or sequences of operations, such as differentiation and integration, when applied to only one of several variables at a time.

[Katachi]

A last word: incomplete in the sense of not finished yet, but anyway a very good documentation.

Another thing:
It seems some people could be offended by this thread so I want to make clear that I do not say that anybody has done bad things. Neither MAXON nor Bhodinut. If somebody felt attacked by my answers or anything I stated, I apologize. There was no intention to do so.

I don´t want to go further here.

@mdme_sadie: if we do not stop this won´t end. But thanks for the 3dworldmag link anyway. (pity it´s not available in germany).
Thanks for the discussion too. Let´s hope anybody will get what they want asap, so we can concentrate on the original topic of this thread. :beer:

Now I go to bed, it´s damn late in germany. :wavey:

[That Adrian Guy]

Plugins cost too much. I'd by them if they were 30 bucks.

Psuedo-SSS ... that's worth about 40 bucks :)

[lllab]

if the plug is good and professional, they are NOT too expensive.

you cannot expect good work for no money. they also have to make their living.
if you are just playing around, ok. then stick with freeware plugs.
but for professional use 150 - 350 dollar is still CHEAP in my opinion.

look at plugs for lightwave or max. there are some good freeware stuff. the professional add ons are quite more expensive!

just my opinion....

lllab

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