Strange mess with Captured Bristle?

[drounding]

It sounds like you are seeing pixelation. Best way round this is to use a larger canvas size so that you don't need to zoom in so much. Try doubling or quadrupling (or more) your canvas size, you can then paint bigger strokes to get the same result.

When I first starting using Painter I had this problem and that's how I got around it. I now use much bigger canvases.

Others may have different solutions.

HTH

Duncan

[jbw]

Hmm... my canvas is quite large. I'm at work at the moment but I swear it's around 2000-3000 pixels square. Should I go bigger? I forgot to mention thatthe problem only happens with a 1px wide brush. If I change the brush to 2pxs wide the problem goes away?

ta,
jbw

[ElviratheCat]

Captured bristle brushes are based on an image so it is likely that 1 pi is too small, that would to me be the best explainion. I wouldn't use it for fine detail try the Detial brushes or even the 1pi pen for line work. The funny thing is I often find the 1 pi. detail brush to big in comparison to a analog 0 or 00 camel hair for fine detail work.

Elvira

[Jinbrown]

I love the Acrylic>Captured bristle brush... so much so that it's almost all I use. But if I set it to 1px wide and zoom in more than 100% as I paint, it draws strange black and white squares over my brush stroke.


What you're seeing is an anti-aliased brushstroke. In other words, there are pixels added on either side that fade into the background. This allows your brushstroke to appear smoother when the image is at 100% zoom than it would without anti-aliasing.

You could try doing your fine detail work with another brush variant that's not anti-aliased, the Pens' 1-pixel variant for instance, and you would not see those added pixels on either side of the brushstroke when you're zoomed in. Instead, it would paint a single pixel line of black (or whatever color) pixels. However, when you zoom out, you'll see a pixelated brushstroke. In other words, you'll see the jagged pixels along angles and curves when the image is at 100% zoom.

Another thing you might try, as a compromise, is to go to the Brush Controls' General palette and change the Acrylics' Captured Bristle Subcategory from Soft Cover to Flat Cover. You'll see anti-aliasing but it won't be as evident as when the Subcategory is Soft Cover.

Try it to see if that helps.

Otherwise, you'll just need to get used to the anti-aliased brushstroke, realizing it will make a softer, smoother stroke in the end, when the image is seen at 100% zoom.

If you quadruple your image size and use a proportionally larger Acrylics' Captured Bristle brush size (4 pixels), you may have some difficulty doing fine detail work as the brushstroke will then begin to show bristles marks (separate lines) instead of being a solid brushstroke. That may be fine, however, and the bristle marks may not bother you. It all depends on what you're doing and the result you want.

Another problem with quadrupling your image size is that it will increase the file size and it can also slow things down when you're working. If you can manage to work at the size you're currently using, that I believe may be your best option.

[drounding]

Deleted - answered in Jin's post above

[Jinbrown]

jbw,

Take a look at the Acrylics' Captured Bristle variant in sizes 1 through 8, first using the Subcategory Soft Cover (the default setting), then using the Subcategory Flat Cover:

http://www.pixelalley.com/jins_images/acrylics_captrdbrstl_softcvr_fltcvr.gif

As you can see, the larger the brush size, the more space there is in the brushstroke where the "bristles" are more separated.

You could work with the Pen's 1-pixel variant for zoomed in pixel editing (one pixel at a time) and not have the problem of anti-aliasing. Instead, you'd get a solid black (or whatever color) pixel:

http://www.pixelalley.com/jins_images/pens_1pixel_100_1000pctzoom.gif

While the purpose of anti-aliasing is to make the brushstroke's edges look soft/smooth, at these small sizes it really doesn't make a whole lot of difference when the image is zoomed to 100%, though it probably would make a difference when the image is printed.

What we see displayed on the Painter screen is often pixelated, especially at zoom percents other than 25%, 50%, 100%, 125%, 150% and so on. Any percent that is not in 25% increments will display pixelation (jagged edges along angles and curves), unfortunately, and not give us a true idea of how the image will look when printed.

Feel free to download these images to your hard drive and open them in Painter, then zoom in to see if you're seeing the same thing I'm seeing.

[jbw]

I don't think we're talking about the same thing Jin. What I see is some form of display error on screen as I paint. I'm not complaining about the anti-aliasing element of the brush - I couldn't bear to work without an antialiased brush even if I will eventually re-size my work.
My issue is that when I do a brush stroke with a 1px captured bristle it gives me strange black and white boxes across my image rather than updating my canvas with the new brsuh stroke. This only happens when I'm zoomed in at least 100%. The problem doesn't happen at 100% with a 1px brush nor does it happen if I use a 2px brush.
I'll see if I can grab a screen in the next couple of hours when I get home. I apologise for any time wasted on your part - I know how busy you are.

ta,
jbw

[Jinbrown]

It's OK, jbw.

If you can show us a screen print, that would help.

Just guessing, but it might be a memory problem.

Try closing all other programs and launching Painter again to see if that helps.

Just thinking out loud.. will wait for your screen print.

[jbw]

Hi again, I've managed to get a screengrab of it. Please see attached. It could be memory but I've got 2gb and the image is 8mb (Painter is using 12mb). I've just realised that I'm still running 8 rather than 8.1. Am going to update shortly and see if it fixes it. In the meantime any suggestions would be good.

ta,
jbw

[Jinbrown]

By jove, I think I've got it (both the problem and a workaround)!

My system specs:

Pentium 4
2.53 gHz
512 MB RAM
120 GB hard drive with about 75% free
NVIDIA GeFORCE FX 5200
128 MB Video RAM
WinXP Home SP2
Using Painter 8.1

Here's what I got when using the Acrylics' Captured Bristle at brush Sizes 1 through 4:

http://www.pixelalley.com/jins_images/acrylics_captrdbrstl_artifacts.gif

I did a screen print, cropped it and pasted it into a new image then came back to the original image and surprise! The artifacts were gone!

So... I decided to play a bit more and discovered the artifacts can be made to appear on demand and not appear on demand.

Using the Acrylics' Captured Bristle variant with Size set to 1 this time, I painted a stroke near the top of the image window, then another below it, and a few more below those strokes. Notice where the artifacts are, still using the brush variant with Size set to 1:

http://www.pixelalley.com/jins_images/acrylics_captrdbrstl_artifacts2.gif

As soon as my brushstrokes moved farther from the top of the image window, the artifacts stopped appearing.

To avoid them, just don't work near the top of the image window. Use the Grabber tool to move the area you want to work on, into the center of the image window.


To get rid of the artifacts if they do appear now and then, three options are available to refresh the image window:

• Minimize the image window, then maximize it (interruption of workflow).

• Double click the Magnifier tool to zoom to 100% (interruption of workflow with an additional step needed to go back to the desired zoom percent).

• Hold down the Spacebar and use the Grabber tool to move the artifact areas outside of the image window, then back in again, all cleaned up.

Of the three, I would think the third is the most efficient while you're working and the Brush tool is active since you can hold down the Spacebar, move the image, let go, and your Brush tool is again active. Your zoom percent doesn't change and you can continue working.

I hope this is at least something that works for you, if not the ideal solution (not to have the darned artifacts at all).

Please let me know how it goes.



.........

[jbw]

Above and beyond as always. Thanks for your advice Jin, I've taken it on board and will probably use option 3 for the time being.
Do you have Painter 9? If so could you tell me if it suffers from the same problem?

Many thanks,
jbw

[drounding]

I can't reproduce this in PIX.
Maybe this is also related to the monitor driver and not just Painter.

Perhaps Jin has tried this in PIX??

Duncan

[Jinbrown]

jbw,

Yes, I do have Painter IX, Painter 8.1, Painter 7.1.357, Painter 6.1, Painter 5.0.3, and both Metacreations Painter Classic 1 and procreate Painter Classic 2 installed and use all of them frequently. Painter IX is by far my favorite of all of these versions.

No, I can't reproduce this artifact thing in Painter IX using the Acrylics' Captured Bristle variant, and don't recall seeing it in Painter IX with any of the brush variants.

I do, however, have some other display problems in Painter 8.1 now and then. I'll see odd artifacts on the palettes that don't go away even if I refresh the Painter 8.1 screen. That was happening when I did the demo images above and there may be a relationship there but I can't say what it might be other than my video card or video RAM. Then one would expect the same problem to show up in other Painter versions too, and if it has, I don't recall which earlier Painter version it might have been, when it might have happened, or the conditions at the time.

Have you deleted your Scripts library file, by chance? If not, that might help too. When it's deleted, Painter automatically generates a new Painter.SSD file, an empty Scripts library that will take less file space and, I believe, also less memory while using Painter.

[DigitalShade]

I've had this problem also on different brushes when you have them really small. I usually just toggle impasto effect button on and off and it clears the artifacts. You might try that.

[jbw]

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm still working with painter, it's started doing it with other brushes now (2b pencil). I'll use the 'toggle impasto effect' technique for now, till I've saved enough for an upgrade to version 9. I too have other display problems but nothing as 'workflow-stopping' as this.

ta,
jbw

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