My Next Bug Report, HVs and Self Shadow LW8.3

[Para]

The scene file would be nice so please post it and we can see if there's something we can do to make it work.

[mdunakin]

Ok, sounds cool.

I'll get that posted up.
And after I posted this thread, I realized that I really should of added some more info here.
Namely, I first heard about some others who were having some problems with shadows
and such with the latest version of 8.3 and HVs and so I decided to try it out
and see if I could get the same results as they did.
I didn't, but instead got the ones you see in the image.
They were having issues with the shadows being all scattered and strange.
Mine do what you see, which is just plain weird.
Never did that before with this same scene.

Anyway, let me get those files zipped up and posted.
I sort of thought that no one would really want them, cause others
were able to come up with strange results and HVs in 8.3 also.

Anyway, hang on and I'll post a link in just a bit before I hit the hay.
Here it is:
http://www.md-arts.com/HV_Weirdness_1.zip

I hope it's not just something with my system or like that.
I don't feel like changing a graphics card or anything.
But, like I say, this scene rendered out perfectly fine before.
More then that though, I also tried this with 8.3 HVs in a brand new scene
and still came up with the same results, no matter what scene I setup.

...................md :)

[mdunakin]

OK, just to be sure, I decided to load this scene up in LW7.5c
and see if I got the same results as in 8.3.
Guess what?
Nope!
It worked perfect in 7.x with Self Shadows set to On.

So, it's definately an issue with 8.3, that's for sure.
Someone who hasn't updated to 8.3 and are still using an earlier version of 8,
please test it out on that too, just to be sure.
Thanx.

Just thought I'd let you know :)
........md :)

[Tim007]

Yeah, its problem with 8.3. I found this too some weeks ago. Newtek fix some bugs, but make some new. its terrible.

[Exper]

I always install every update in a different directory having many LW versions and configurations at the same time: this way you can have the best from every version.

But I have to admin this is the first time I don't install an update: the bug reported using 8.3 involve some of the parts I use most... so I'll wait the next one! :sad:

I can confirm that the reported HV problem is due to 8.3.
this is the 8.2.1 rendering using HV "Self Shadows".
http://exper.3drecursions.com/lw_bugs/HV_Weirdness_1.jpg

[mav3rick]

eaven i step into this bug earlyer this week yesterday i reported one more. use BLENDING MODE OFF and check RAYTRACE SHADOW in render option and hit f9. your lw will freez.

[-Ender]

Mav: I think there are some more requirements for that freeze issue, as mine doesn't.

[mav3rick]

make box send to layout, add some pfx on it and tell it to emit per frame base. add hv3 surface mode, turn off blending.
add distant light set shadow to raytrace shadow
go to render panel
set raytrace shadow ON. press f9

[Exper]

make box send to layout, add some pfx on it and tell it to emit per frame base. add hv3 surface mode, turn off blending.If you're using Pfx and HV then you must been aware of the well known 100.000 limitation.

Take a look here for a dirty trick: Trick: surpass the 100K HV limit (http://3drecursions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12)

Hoping it helps! ;)

[mav3rick]

i dont talk on 100 000 particles here is scene
load it CLICK raytrace shdw in render panel, njoy freezing.

www.null.hr/tmp/bug.rar (http://www.null.hr/tmp/bug.rar)


p.s. i just discovered if you set transparency to 0 % in hv3 panel all will be fine
anythin more than 0% is crash
this only COUNT if you have blending off

[Exper]

Test done! It works perfectly using my LW 8.2.1! :surprised

http://exper.3drecursions.com/lw_bugs/bugtest_no.jpg

As previously said I have not installed LW 8.3 so I cannot test! ;)

[mav3rick]

if you read my post this FREEZ is happening only if blending mode is off so what you done is 8.2 render with NO FEATURE for blending off.

[mdunakin]

I have to admit, that I'm surprized that the testers of these updates never catch
something as blatently and obviously wrong and screwed up as this is?

If they need decent beta testers, I wish they'd give me a call.
I do great beta testing for other softwares and I would be great for NT too.
I know I wouldn't of let something as noticable as this one get by.
Sorry to whoever DOES do the testing of these updates, but how could you miss this?

Which brings up the question:
When they do do these updates and "fixing" bugs, do they just test to see if that
particular bug got fixed and NOT bother to check the rest of the app to
see if anything else got broken with the new "fixes", or what?
I'm not being a wize a** or anything, just wondering about the proccess, that's all?
But when this happens like this so often with each update, it does make one wonder?
Old bugs get fixed, while creating new bugs.

Now, maybe I'll get slammed by programmers with the speach about how complex these things are,
but if I have a very complicated animation with all sorts of complicated keyframes for all
sorts of different aspects in the animation and the client found something wrong that I needed to fix
and then I fixed it but created another problem and then tried to pass that
off to a client, they wouldn't except it, and I'd have to fix ALL the problems and not just
fix the one they were complaining about while then ruining something else in the animation.
And yes, I do realize that it can't possibly totally work this way, as with software you
are also adding new features all the time as well as fixing bugs, but fixing bugs just to
create new bugs in things that WERE working just fine, is not really (well....) exceptable.

Sorry, not trying to be mean spirited here, just stating how it is.

.................md :)

[mdunakin]

mav3rick, ok I just tested your deal and yep!, froze up like a ice burg!
Had to alt+cntrl+del to get it to close.
So, this makes two or is it up to three now, for HVs?

................md :)

[mav3rick]

well let's hope there's reson why all this happen.....

[LSlugger]

I have to admit, that I'm surprized that the testers of these updates never catch
something as blatently and obviously wrong and screwed up as this is?

Software, especially a GUI-intensive app. like LightWave, is complex, and 3D graphics is about as fast-moving and competitive as it gets. LightWave is under fire for its aging renderer, its lack of n-gon sub patches, and a host of other things. Given a choice between a relatively bug-free LightWave 5.6 or a dodgy LightWave 8.3, the market would choose 8.3--no contest.

Now, does that excuse poor quality? Speaking as someone who tests software for a living: no, it doesn't. The biggest embarassment to a software developer is a regression, something that worked in the past, but is now broken (doubly so if it has broken in the past). For the specific case of this HyperVoxel discoloration, one can envision a test scene that you could render and compare with a reference image--if the XOR of the two images is brighter some threshold, it merits investigation. I think the LightWave renderer is stable enough to allow for this sort of testing.

In fairness, software testers are faced with the Sisyphean task of maintaining regression tests for a continually changing piece of software, as well as keeping up with a flood of new features. Also, keep in mind that most companies have three or four developers writing new bugs for each tester who looks for them (and the developers are always paid more).

If I were in charge, the first thing I would do is hire some technically inclined testers. Not the computer science major who would rather be a developer, but the part-time plug-in developer or the sysadmin who moonlights in 3D. I would task them with establishing unit tests for every identifiable feature and plug in, and automated tests for the system as a whole. If this required more hooks or a better SDK, I would assign a developer or two to make it so. Automated testing is not a panacea, but its lack can be painfully obvious.

[mdunakin]

LSlugger,
>>>>>>>>>>>
Software, especially a GUI-intensive app. like LightWave, is complex, and 3D graphics is about as fast-moving and competitive as it gets. LightWave is under fire for its aging renderer, its lack of n-gon sub patches, and a host of other things. Given a choice between a relatively bug-free LightWave 5.6 or a dodgy LightWave 8.3, the market would choose 8.3--no contest.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
actually, I DID mention this aspect (to some extent) in the rest of my message
and was kinda surprised that you didn't post "that" part of what I said?
Because I DO understand this part of apps and programming and such.

In otherwords, I wasn't trying to slam them for these sort of issues, but rather
hoping to find a way to "solve" these from happening in the furutre.

Sorry to you, if I came off that way :)

.....................md :)

[Exper]

if you read my post this FREEZ is happening only if blending mode is off so what you done is 8.2 render with NO FEATURE for blending off.I can't bet but I remeber Blending=OFF.

I'm currently out with a notebook I rarely use for 3D.
I've got LW 8.0 installed (on this one) and I had five minutes to test (using your own provided scene) with Blending=OFF and all combination of Rendering Raytracing options ON/OFF: all work ok! No freezes! :blush:

[mav3rick]

huh expert. lemme explain one more time.. i hope this time you will read CAREFULLY
as you just told you do not own or run 8.3 . this automaticly put you behind of doors for this topic cause we are discussing about 8.3 hv3 bug reports.
As you know or do not know 8.3 has new feature called BLENDING MODE PER emiter basis wich gives you ability to either tell particles interact like METABALLS or to stay as each individual.
So in 8.2 or earlyer you were able to define only blending groups and in 8.3 you can not only define blending groups but you can also tell should hv3 use blending or not.
So testing my scene on your laptop, desktop or whateverTOP computer without 8.3 installed makes no seens.
Cheers, don't get mad or get me wrong but you cant contribute this thread with using 8.2 cause i just said that with BLENDING MODE turned on all works fine and since u cant turn it off in 8.2 cause it doesnt exsist as a feature u cant mimic this bug.

[LSlugger]

In otherwords, I wasn't trying to slam them for these sort of issues, but rather
hoping to find a way to "solve" these from happening in the furutre.

As frustrating as it sounds, I don't know what a customer can do. More extensive beta testing sounds good, but that's really just the icing on the cake (for that matter, it's just the sprinkles on the icing). A beta tester is a fresh set of eyes, but he doesn't have the resources or the incentive to compete with in-house testers. To make matters worse, beta testing comes so late in the release cycle that there may not be time to fix the problems he does find.

Apart from improving the development and testing process (and I'm sure they're working hard, as it is), the one thing NewTek could do better is communicate. Wouldn't it be more satisfying to report this HyperVoxel bug in a proper bug database than to feel like it's getting lost in the NewTek or CGTalk forums? Every now and then, Chuck chimes in, but how often does he deliver a satisfying message?

[RobertoOrtiz]

PEOPLE keep it light and NOT personal. This is my ONLY warning.

-R

[mav3rick]

agree lslug

[Chuck Baker]

As frustrating as it sounds, I don't know what a customer can do. More extensive beta testing sounds good, but that's really just the icing on the cake (for that matter, it's just the sprinkles on the icing). A beta tester is a fresh set of eyes, but he doesn't have the resources or the incentive to compete with in-house testers. To make matters worse, beta testing comes so late in the release cycle that there may not be time to fix the problems he does find.

Apart from improving the development and testing process (and I'm sure they're working hard, as it is), the one thing NewTek could do better is communicate. Wouldn't it be more satisfying to report this HyperVoxel bug in a proper bug database than to feel like it's getting lost in the NewTek or CGTalk forums? Every now and then, Chuck chimes in, but how often does he deliver a satisfying message?

Apologies, please rest assured that I'll try to do better about that in future. :)

Your concerns and ideas are certainly well-taken; we are in fact working on improving our in-house testing efforts, with a particular eye to many of the points of emphasis that have been mentioned in this thread. We are also working on ways to make the beta portion of the cycle more effective as well.

Improving our communications in regard to such issues as bugs is also something we've been working on, and something where I've had a particular interest in improving since moving into my current position in marketing. In the past we did not list the specific bugfixes in a given update; the new marketing team proposed and the new development team was amenable to changing that, and now a list of fixes is provided with each update.

Formal publishing of existing current issues is in consideration, but may take time to come to a decision and work out details. In the meantime, I've been making sure that a new bug workshop thread is launched in each support section of our forums for each new update, and the previous workshop threads are also kept as sticky threads at the top of the forums for reference.

Please also bear in mind that the lwbugs (at) newtek (dot) com address goes straight to the development team, and into our internal bug database. Again, previously it was not standard that a reply was made from this address unless there was a need for further information to duplicate the bug. The new marketing team and dev team have reviewed this issue, and it will now be standard that you will receive a reply - we'll let you know if your report is something new, or if the bug is already in our database, or, of course, if we cannot duplicate and need further information. If folks will also add emailed bugs to the Workshop thread, then we'll have a temporary public system in place until a more formal solution is implemented.

We appreciate the concerns expressed, and we look forward to providing improvements in our marketing and development efforts that will alleviate those concerns for you. Thanks very much for taking the time to express these concerns and your suggestions.

[Chuck Baker]

Apologies, one more comment that I feel really needs to be made:

It really is not fair to assume that the beta testers missed anything, when you are puzzled as to how something made it out the door. They work very hard, we very much appreciate their efforts and feedback, other LightWave users owe them a debt of appreciation as well, and no one is responsible for the condition of our shipping product other than NewTek. When you have any issues in that regard, we are the people to consider and to address, and we are completely willing to take our proper responsibility. It's us, folks. Nobody else. Especially not a wonderful group doing their best to help make LightWave a better product.

[mdunakin]

Sorry Chuck if my comments came off that badly, if you're refering to mine?

But, for me, I just couldn't see how it was possible to let something as obvious as the HV
issues that are now in there and basically render them useless, could have been let out
like that. I just assumed it was beta testers who are the ones who are supposed to be
checking things like this, but I guess your point is well taken as to who bares the final
responsibilities for such matters, but at the same time, if the beta testers don't inform
you (NewTek), then how would you guys know if there IS any problems in that area?
If they don't check for these things and don't let you know, then you wouldn't
know about it and thus, ship it out as it is.

Correct? or no?

And yes, I do realize that there will be things that just don't get caught.
It happens.

In either case, yes, I am happy about the testers and anyone else invloved with getting out updates.
And for the most part, there is more feed back from NewTek then a lot of other software companies around.
And it does seem that NewTek has been trying harder to improve
such issues as these, so I for one am very greatful.

So, thanx!
.................md :)

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