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Biohazard
10-14-2002, 05:50 PM
Max scene now downloadable at page 2 (fourth post). Enjoy. :)

As I said into the WIP forum (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24425) :

I've had a strange MSN chat with a friend this afternnon, about lightspeed, mass, energy transfers, tendencies to infinite... Huh !It was totally weird and nonsense (cause we aren't scientists, and we're french, perhaps). Then this sunday became rainy around Montreal, VERY rainy... Then I decided to do some homework in CG.

This poor guy has gone a little bit too fast. Here's an electronic microscope view.

http://biohazard11.free.fr/lightspeed_paradox-1200.jpg

This is a 3dsmax4 + Vray (old release) render. Some 2d adjusts for contrast and spread of light, but not much. Comments would be appreciated, thank you. :hmm:

Frank Dodd
10-14-2002, 07:13 PM
Very nice I do like this well constructed artistic image. I know that electron microscope images are black and white but I think the rocket and spaceman would benefit from some texturing, even if just bump maps.

Very nice :thumbsup:

slaughters
10-14-2002, 08:53 PM
Strange,

I thought that as you approached the speed of light your mass became infinite and I always assumed this implied that your volume increased as well. I was expecting giants, not little people.

Nice concept for an image though.

Biohazard
10-15-2002, 12:27 AM
Frank Dodd

I was wondering if some textures or not would be welcome. But I like the contrast between the dark and bumpy little chunk of crap and the smooth and over-lighted rocket... So...
I'll try something this evening and I'll replace the original image with a new one (Else, this Thread will return to WIP). :)
Burns on the rocket's top perhaps ? What have you in mind ?

slaughters

Mmm, I thought too that mass had a tendance to infinite when the object accelerates to lightspeed. I'm not sure, but there is nothing about inflating at lightspeed. ;)
Then, it's a question of perception, doppler effect with the light that surrounds you ? (streched objects I mean)

Becoming as tinny as a micron was just the strange result of this weird chat with that friend.

And what happens to mass if you reach lightspeed (finite number) ? Hey, someone to recall us about relativity, or some underground scientist around ? :)

By the way, thanks for yours comments.

froggyplat
10-15-2002, 04:05 AM
i can help with that:

when an object or particle that has mass (even a very very tiny mass) approaches the speed of light, its mass does indeed increase at an exponential rate. in fact, it is asymptotic to the speed of light so it theoretically reaches infinity at precisely the speed of light.
also, as objects approach the speed of light they undergo what's called a "lorentz contraction" which means to observers the object appears to get shorter along the axis of acceleration. however, this is a relativistic effect, so to the object traveling near the speed of light it's length appears normal (imagine if the traveler is holding a ruler and it's a bit easier to visualize).

of course, objects that have mass can never reach the speed of light as einstein showed way back in 1905. however, there might be small exceptions to this rule (but probably not the kind that will give us the "enterprise").

slaughters
10-15-2002, 06:06 AM
But what has allways fascinated me has been that relative speeds can be faster than the speed of light even if absolute speed can not.

i.e. two ships appoaching each other at .6 light speed will each observe that the other, approaching ship has a relative speed of 1.2, while to an outside observer nothing appears to go faster than .6

I'm sure there is an easy answere to this, I've just forgotten what it is

P.S. Wouldn't it be neat if changes in gravitational attraction were instantaeous (or at least faster than light). Too bad about the inverse square law of attraction which would limit its usefulness and too bad about our inability to actually generate (add or subtract) to gravitational fields quickly enough for this to be measurable.

D. Phoenix
10-15-2002, 07:23 AM
Quite a creative work; I'm a big fan of the lighting. It adds a lot to the sense of scale.

Do you primarily use bumpmaps to achieve the surface texture or another method?

-D. Phoenix

Jimzip
10-15-2002, 10:58 AM
Jimzip not mathmatical..
Jimzip confused..
Jimzip leaving thread...:shrug:

Excellent work by the way! I love it the way it is!:thumbsup:

pascal_blanche
10-15-2002, 01:52 PM
superbe image msieur gwen :) kofi?

froggyplat
10-15-2002, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by slaughters
But what has allways fascinated me has been that relative speeds can be faster than the speed of light even if absolute speed can not.

i.e. two ships appoaching each other at .6 light speed will each observe that the other, approaching ship has a relative speed of 1.2, while to an outside observer nothing appears to go faster than .6

I'm sure there is an easy answere to this, I've just forgotten what it is

P.S. Wouldn't it be neat if changes in gravitational attraction were instantaeous (or at least faster than light). Too bad about the inverse square law of attraction which would limit its usefulness and too bad about our inability to actually generate (add or subtract) to gravitational fields quickly enough for this to be measurable.

actually, at very high velocities (close to the speed of light) speed doesn't add up like that. no object will ever even appear to travel faster than light (because it is the same thing as saying it IS traveling faster than light..i.e. there is no such thing as "absolute" speed). again, it is a consequence of these particular kinds of transformations that must be used at relativistic speeds called "lorentz transformations".

as far as gravitational attraction goes, it IS instananeous. what we think of as gravity is actually an illusion...it's not a force that acts over time, but a property of space and time itself which is influenced by mass (i'm not making this up..this is basically what einstein showed in the general theory of relativity in 1925).

the interesting thing is that einstein put in what he called a "fudge factor" in relativity which was like an "anti-gravitational property". this was to compensate for what, at the time, they thought was a static, non-expanding universe. he later called it a serious error when we discovered the universe is expanding rapidly. funny thing is, he may have been right. recent discoveries about the rate at which the furthest (therefore oldest) galaxies are receding away from us suggest that there may be some kind of anti-gravitational force, although it would be even weaker than gravity. so, einstein may have been right all along!


p.s. sorry if the thread is getting hijacked...it's a really nice piece of work!

Biohazard
10-15-2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by pascal blanché
superbe image msieur gwen :) kofi?
Ha ba si j'avais lu ça plus tôt, je te l'aurais offert, le café. :)

Originally posted by D. Phoenix
Quite a creative work; I'm a big fan of the lighting. It adds a lot to the sense of scale.
Do you primarily use bumpmaps to achieve the surface texture or another method?

I only used this supa-hypa-cool Vray's feature, the displacement modifier. :) The computer crashed this night (render) so a new version (with a bit more of textures, like burns on Reactors and rocket's top, and a slightly less over-lighted rocket and astronaut) will come tomorrow.

Thanks you for your comments (about lightspeed too, a neverending discussion I love to follow, even hijacked).

dmcgrath
10-15-2002, 11:09 PM
This is a great picture, very original direction you took it too. The thing he landed on is a piece of pollen isn't it?

Personally, I like the lighting and composition. What needs changing?

:thumbsup:

Biohazard
10-16-2002, 12:30 AM
True, that might be some kind of Hibiscus pollen. Excellent, thanks !!
But to be honnest, before your post, I wouldn't have put a bet on it. ;)

http://www.pbrc.hawaii.edu/bemf/microangela/mhipollen.jpg

Pic found on that lovely source of micron microscope pictures :
MicroAngela (http://www.pbrc.hawaii.edu/bemf/microangela/)

Another interesting pollen for mesh edit addicts...

http://www.petitmusee.org/images/pollen_jpg.jpg

Insects are amazing too. I used many sources of micro microscope views for my past July challenge (A bug).

Nath
10-16-2002, 11:10 PM
far as I know, mass becomes infinity, length becomes zero and time seems to stop.

ilasolomon
10-18-2002, 10:08 AM
SUPERB PIC/IDEA! very funny! :D

but from a sientific POV:
when the subject stops it reachs it's normal lenght/mass!
we also know that Takhions may exist. as Anti-Material DO exists!

tom
10-18-2002, 10:28 AM
I like it !!
very nice work !^^

say-g
10-18-2002, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Nath
far as I know, mass becomes infinity, length becomes zero and time seems to stop.

are we talking from experience ? :p

piajartist
10-19-2002, 06:45 AM
OH YEAH 4.5 Stars. Love the originality and the concept. The bump map gives it an extreme feeling of microrganisms.

Biohazard
10-19-2002, 06:53 AM
I though it would be nice to post my Max scene here, just to let people play with it or look inside, if they like.

In a way, it's like showing up my underwear.
You'll just see how dirty I model things. ;)

Thanks to sieurs MR2 & Vaucanson about showing it's underwear, by the way.

I paste the readme.txt I've attached to the archive.



Enjoy, and tell me what you think about it.

http://biohazard11.free.fr/temp/LightspeedParadox.zip
This is a Max 4 scene, provided with a 3dsmax original bitmap. Yeah, it's a burger, I'm lame, thats my only texture for the WHOLE scene...

-------- Readme.txt
Of course :

All the stuff in that archive should only be used for non commercial and personnal matters.
Else, you'll be a bad bad person robbering people's stuff (that you don't even know).
...Then, it won't make you better in 3D. Huh.

Enjoy, distribute. This stuff is only a little piece of 3D I've made during a rainy afternoon.
You know, like Dali said, it's quite easy to say "Hey, this lovely crap only took 5 hours off my time"... And how many years, before, to work, guess and search ?
The scene is very raw, without any cleaning.
It was only set up for a still image and it's in that state, till the day I published it on the web.


If you use and (and enjoy)this stuff, please, credit it to : Gwen Heliou - http://biohazard11.free.fr
I won't provide support in any way for this stuff. Be an adult.

After all, its all our job to wonder, search, guess and make progresses...
Feedback and improvement are VERY appreciated.

You'll need "Solidify" - http://www.gravitonic.com/software/3dsmax/
and of course the wonderfull and easy to use "Vray" (and still in dev, grrr) - http://www.vrayrender.com/


By the way, this image was originaly posted on cgtalk, 3dtotal, 3dvf and Threedy. In other way, many people have already seen it. It's used, and it's an used concept.


Love.

Gwen
--------

Frank Dodd
10-19-2002, 12:19 PM
Sorry for the late reply my internet connection has been down. by textures I was thinking perhaps about some seams and rivits on the rocket, some roughness perhaps in the suit and perhaps a seat or some piping in the cabin. However the image does look great as it is and if you decide not to fiddle with it, it stands as an excelent and imaginative piece of work.
)

Biohazard
10-19-2002, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by piajartist
OH YEAH 4.5 Stars. Love the originality and the concept. The bump map gives it an extreme feeling of microrganisms.
Yes. That's amazing how the displacement map gives that grain and feeling of real non-mechanical life. And now, you know that my texture for that organisms was a burger. :cool: No fear.

Originally posted by Frank Dodd
by textures I was thinking perhaps about some seams and rivits on the rocket, some roughness perhaps in the suit and perhaps a seat or some piping in the cabin.
Thanks Frank. I had this in mind too, but this is perhap one of the first finished stuff of my own which is off "realism". Else, I could model screws and pipes for the rest of my life. ;) As I am doing at work, in fact. Not only screws, hopefully, but backgrounds and environments. :)

Thanks all for your comments, it's always heart warming. :beer:

Ho, by the way, there's one map missing in my archive. It's only a previous render, darkened and blured, then put to the back env, just to add some depth. You can use one from your own.

Rogue
10-20-2002, 02:13 AM
I like the shots composition. I would just like to see the ship textured as well.

As for the relativity subject, everything Froggyplat said is correct, but do keep in mind that these effects are measured only from an outside observer from a different inertial reference point...as in someone traveling at a much lesser velocity. The person (or thing) traveling near the speed of light would measure everything in his inertial reference frame as normal. A second would be a second, his mass would be his mass, and his length would be his length. It is the observer outside his reference frame that would measure the time dilation, length contraction, and increase in mass.

Lorentz derived his formulas before Einstien developed the Special Theory of Relativity, but Einstien was able to approach it from a different stand point and, uh, make sense of it all.

Neat stuff. And just think, that was nearly a hundred years ago.

facial
10-20-2002, 10:15 AM
It looks better than earlier one, Well done:thumbsup:

Biohazard
10-28-2002, 03:39 AM
Thanks. :)
But it did not pass the raph.com jury (5 versus 9, sob)... I'll have to work harder on a new scene. :p

Here's my new WIP scene (Early WIP).

Still : Sci-Fi Desert scene (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26102)

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