integrated NLE for Fusion

[PaulNewman]

I've just seen that Apple has a possible solution :

"Final Cut Pro integration with Shake (http://www.apple.com/shake/) lets you share data between editing and effects. Using Final Cut Pro XML (http://developer.apple.com/appleapplications/download/) interchange, cuts and layers from a Final Cut Pro timeline automatically generate a Shake process tree, bypassing import and export."

[tais]

The Velocity (DPS) is NLE, and it can communicate with DigitalFusion.
It's more cheaper than Nitris for sure, but little expensive aswell.

[SalaTar]

A large amount of people are getting out of the Velocity board (discontinued) and going to the Q or HD, so finding a full one on ebay for under 2 grand aint all that hard.


http://www.leitch.com/custserv/products.nsf/$All/F9A75409FEE000DF85256BF900739AF1


I havnt heard if the new X edit will have DF integration like Velocity yet.(lets hope)


http://www.leitch.com/custserv/products.nsf/$All/6DE3E3705798506985256FEF005FC148

[MarkH]

1) For SD you would use the Leitch Velocity or VelocityQ
2) For HD you would use the Velocity HD (still cheaper than Bluefish444)

The Velocity's software locks-in with DF. There is a Quicktime demo here (http://www.eyeonline.com/Web/EyeonWeb/Products/dfx_plus/dfx_plus.aspx) of how DFX+ and Velocity work together. The same applies to DF. I think DF could seriously benefit from something like the Edit Operator in combustion.

I assume you are trying to work with multiple clips sequentially and this is why you want an integrated NLE? I so, in DF4 you can just load a clip and change the start time from 0 to whatever time you want it to start, then use the Merge tools to string your clips together. You might even be able to use the Timeline too?

[tais]

hmm, Use the dissolve tool to string your clips together. The Merge tool is to mix 2 clips (multiply, substract, etc...)

[SalaTar]

When exporting a A/B from velocity to DF the clips come in as a loader, dissolve/merge depending on complexity of a/b line

[PaulNewman]

1) For SD you would use the Leitch Velocity or VelocityQ
2) For HD you would use the Velocity HD (still cheaper than Bluefish444)

The Velocity's software locks-in with DF. There is a Quicktime demo here (http://www.eyeonline.com/Web/EyeonWeb/Products/dfx_plus/dfx_plus.aspx) of how DFX+ and Velocity work together. The same applies to DF. I think DF could seriously benefit from something like the Edit Operator in combustion.
Thanks for the info, I'll check it out.


I assume you are trying to work with multiple clips sequentially and this is why you want an integrated NLE? I so, in DF4 you can just load a clip and change the start time from 0 to whatever time you want it to start, then use the Merge tools to string your clips together. You might even be able to use the Timeline too?
Actually no. I'm setting up a post production environment where editing, color correcting, and effects intermingle, all on one powerful machine, offering incredible creative control to a film maker who is a talented editor, color artist and effects artist. Nowadays this is not uncommon, and it encourages the iterative creative process of working back and forth, experimenting, progressively refining.Start the offline edit in final HD quality. I'm itching to see how the effects shot cuts with the live action. Right, motion flows nicely. Get rid of the green screen. Extract a matte. Composite into 3D rendered virtual set. Key is not perfect yet, but that's for later. Back to the offline - it's telling the story. Change the mood. General color correction through this scene (multiple shots). The bad key is bothering me. Fiddle with it - much better - can be even better but not now. Offline edit. Back to story telling. Next scene. Play back edit proxy. Nice. Some shots rough, some with effects, some with story board proxy . . .
The same system used by same person, ideas never hitting a technical deadend (export to other app, perhaps even other artist, import). Tools should allow continuous and iterative improvement to the point of final product. Non Linear Editing using Non Linear Creative Process.

Of course DF requires such great effort to do NLE because it was built to deal with a shot at a time. Either it should be linked to existing NLE, or it should get a NLE functionality itself - like a plugin or module. To recreate a full NLE suite inside DF is perhaps too much. Perhaps basic editing like cuts and fades just to tell the story and get hands dirty with effects and moods.

Here's a letter from eyeon in February 2005:

Hi Paul,

Like you say, technically Fusion could be used as an NLE, as we do have a Timeline editor for shifting clip timing via that type of interface, but it is far from optimized for a long-form editing project. (Or even a short-form project.) Fusion is designed to be used as a shot by shot compositor so typically the Timeline editor is only ever used as a visual way to line up timing on multiple elements for a shot.

Another issue is Fusion's lack of audio support other than for scratch track reference, although this may not be as big an issue for you depending on your pipeline and workflow.

I know of one user at least, who works on large dome-projection projects with Fusion has to deal with footage that is about 6000x6000 pixels. Fusion is the only piece of software he has found that he can use to edit all of his footage together for the final movies and we have spoken to him on several occasions about possibly adding more NLE functionality into Fusion.

But currently, the editing capabilities of Fusion are very limited, and this will be the same for Fusion 5 when it is released.

I will forward your request along to our development team though so they are aware of the demand for a bit more editing functionality.

Thanks,

Andrew Liszewski
Product Specialist
eyeon Software Inc.

Here's my response :

Hi Andrew,

I thank you for taking the time to reply in detail. I myself have edited with DF2 but as you say it is not suited for that. However, in keeping with DF's amazing shot-by-shot ability, I would like to offer the following paradigm which could be beneficial for both long and short form projects. Even though I make this suggestion to you, I believe a 3rd party developer may also suitably implement it and leave eyeon to remain focused on the DF core application.

An edit project is simply a collection or an organization of shots - perhaps it could be seen as a database of shots collected for replay in a specified order. Each shot has media assets (source, 3D render layers, 2D layers, etc.). DF already has the ability to look at a source shot and allows the user to trim In and Out points. It now becomes a simple matter to add a DF Flow as part of the shot's assets. Now a project is a collection of media with DF flows. As you 'scrub' from shot to shot, and request to see the flow (double click on shot icon on NLE timeline), then the flow for that shot opens. If you wish to transition from one shot to another, then Flow_F and Flow_G become Loaders into Flow_FG and the user can use DF tools (like DX or more complex custom or library wipes, etc.) . A few simple tools, perhaps updating an XML file, simply keep track of shot order, shot trim, shot Flows and transition info and Flows. Import an EDL (if basic edit was done elsewhere) and that would automatically create a shot database with flows as the user makes changes to selected shots using DF, allowing the project to be managed visually in DF, all assets seen and accounted for, all flows editable, audio still only for reference.

DF already has everything in it for everything else. In this way DF focuses on effects, but the added functionality makes it sufficient to be a resolution independent editing and finishing environment with a strong toolset for project management. So instead of just letting DF focus on the shot at hand, also give it the ability to step back, see the big picture (the whole edit or a portion thereof) and then let the user focus on another shot again. In this way the grading and effects from shot to shot can also be previewed in juxtaposition to oneanother in edited order as a final product, not just as a standalone shot.

Since DF so naturally already forms the hub around which shots come together in studios, such editing database functionality should be welcomed naturally by all your existing clients.

So I simply see an NLE timeline like you would in, let's say Video Toaster (I use VT[4]), where you could scrub or play to see a rendered proxy (ability to switch DF rendering OFF or ON per shot) with DF renderfarm updating the proxy using all your new fancy rendering stuff. You can zoom into the timeline and select a shot for basic edit functions. Double click the shot and the flow is loaded into the flow editor as usual. Shift the shot on the NLE timeline and nothing happens with that shot's flow, just the edit is updated.

Come to think of it, Video Toaster could act as a platform for this kind of thing - allowing the user to effortlessly edit an RTV proxy of an HD or 4K film. Select a shot on the Toaster timeline, press a hotkey and DF6 (running in the background) is instantly brought forward with the flow for that shot loaded. In this way you only develop an administrative bridge between DF and Toaster (or any other preferred NLE package) without really changing DF's core features and leveraging the edit features of an exisiting NLE. A transition on the NLE timeline would simply be known as a DF Effect, which, when you hot click on it, again brings forward DF with the relevant flow defining what happens to the two associated shots. Such thinking could make DF quite a favourite for Digital Intermediate pipelines. And if support is developed for the major NLE's out there, many people can keep on leveraging the investment they made into SD equipment while producing HD or film output!!

Anyway. Time marches on. Other people have similar ideas. New products develop. I may be wrong with what sort of demand there really exists for this. I would certainly use it.

You may say that most people are not in the position where they need to deal with the edit like this, that most effects artists are not editors and only work on the shots farmed out to them.

An effects artist assigned a scene (a couple of shots) would benefit from seeing the bigger picture, the inherent asset managment, and the flow from one shot to another. Any job of sequential clips could benefit from something like this, even if its not an entire edit. Imagine a tool like this able to import a portion of an edit timeline over the network (already edited by an acclaimed editor and approved by the director), give you access to work on shot 5 while being able to play shot 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 to just see the context of what you are working on. Does it flow? Does my shot fit into the look and feel requested by the art director? Can I make an intelligent contribution to make it work better after seeing it in context? It can also potentially cut out a whole lot of guess work and going back and forth between machines, people and departments (depending on your establishment).

[PaulNewman]

The Velocity's software locks-in with DF. There is a Quicktime demo here (http://www.eyeonline.com/Web/EyeonWeb/Products/dfx_plus/dfx_plus.aspx) of how DFX+ and Velocity work together.The integration of DF in Velocity seems much much tighter than the Shake integration with Final Cut Pro 5. I haven't used FCP5 myself, but from what I've read in the online manuals, none of the automatic updating applies, you have to manually relink media. That's quite silly really, considering FCP has access to the Shake data, like where you rendered to and if that rendering has been done, and what the current NLE time should look like once it's done.

Velocity does a very good job to nearly seamlessly integrate one of the most powerful compositing tools with an NLE - very powerful stuff. The price premium for Avid DS Nitris is now officially too high!

Thanks MarkH. :thumbsup:

Now to see what Velocity is all about. Another guy I know uses it for SD editing and all I know is that he had to wait loooong for renders while my Video Toaster would just fly through everything. However, that was 2 years ago and now we're talking HD. So let's see. I may be sticking to the PC environment after all . . .

[PaulNewman]

I see that DFX+ is bundled with Velocity HD. Since we're working with HD here, don't I need DF HD? Although I can't really say why, since DF is resolution independent anyway. Perhaps DF HD is for machines without an NLE but with a realtime HD card?

[Jayk2k]

I think the DFHD was to get access to a specific sony HD codec, that most board manufacturers have now either written their own, or go through a quicktime wrapper of some sort.

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