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ashakarc
05-27-2005, 05:29 PM
Long time ago, while reading about the perception of forms and sounds in some psychology study, I came across a facinating issue, that is the relationship between shapes and pronunciation as we perceive them. The following example is like that:



Which shape is takita, and which is maloma?http://alishakarchi.com/painting/takita.jpgThose two shapes and names are absent of any meaning in any language, but everyone, wherever she/he comes from, and at any age capable of language would give the same answer.

How do you explain this?

Squibbit
05-27-2005, 05:44 PM
if the answer is the round one is maloma cause
it sounds more round ,smooth and flowing and the other
is takita cause it looks that way too in comparison
then i found no strange stuff here, it's just logical, but
then again i'm just squibbit

paperclip
05-27-2005, 05:46 PM
I remember reading about this before-- shorter, more eclipsed words give themselves to shorter, acute angles. It's almost like visual onamatopoeia.

ashakarc
05-27-2005, 05:47 PM
if the answer is the round one is maloma cause
it sounds more round ,smooth and flowing and the other
is takita cause it looks that way too in comparison
then i found no strange stuff here, it's just logical, but
then again i'm just squibbit
Thanks Squibbit, that is precisely the point, what makes you think 'maloma' is round, smooth and flowing?
How is logic inherent in our perceptions?!

cha0t1c1
05-27-2005, 05:51 PM
I guess because the "i" vowel is sharp; on the other hand the "o" vowel causes roundness in the mouth, hence the sharp angular can be understood as takita and the round smooth is maloma...

ashakarc
05-27-2005, 05:51 PM
I remember reading about this before-- shorter, more eclipsed words give themselves to shorter, acute angles. It's almost like visual onamatopoeia.
Wow, thanks paperclip, I didn't know about onomatopoeia before.

m-w.com:
onomatopoeia:
1 : the naming of a thing or action by a vocal imitation of the sound associated with it (as buzz, hiss)
2 : the use of words whose sound suggests the sense

paperclip
05-27-2005, 05:56 PM
Whoops, spelt it wrong! :blush: I used to be able to spell it properly... hope it's not early onset of memory loss...

Onomatopoeia is a word many people learn in English and it is a functional part of poetry-- for example, in G.M Hopkins' 'Spring':
'The thrush does so rinse and wring the ear, it strikes like lightning to hear him sing'-- the words 'rinse and wring' sounds rather like birdsong in itself- and so does the word 'sing'.

Visually, I would agree with mohanned in that deeper, flatter sounds relate to deeper, flatter designs.

Either way you look at it, it's an interesting concept.

ashakarc
05-27-2005, 06:16 PM
Similarly, in nature, where lightning with the takita shape has the deep authoritative sound and with many intervals, while winds with the maloma softness of sound and flow has less than obvious intervals.
I used this long time ago to research music and architecture, and how significant it is to be able to relate our visual creations to music, this will not only help us expand our understanding of the world of senses around us, but also understand how culture evolve where art, music, and architecture follow similar schools of thought, as in Classicism, Modernism, Constructivism, Post Modernism, Deconstructivism, etc..

Jean Genie
05-27-2005, 07:15 PM
I used this long time ago to research music and architecture, and how significant it is to be able to relate our visual creations to music, this will not only help us expand our understanding of the world of senses around us, but also understand how culture evolve where art, music, and architecture follow similar schools of thought, as in Classicism, Modernism, Constructivism, Post Modernism, Deconstructivism, etc..

The creations of a same school of thought are similar in that they have similar rythms.
I would think that visual, auditory, or kinetic rythms are all mingled in our memory and brain processes.

Ever thought about what creation really is? In my opinion, it's all about reproducing rythms we have encountered, but in a different media.

ashakarc
05-27-2005, 07:30 PM
The creations of a same school of thought are similar in that they have similar rythms.
I would think that visual, auditory, or kinetic rythms are all mingled in our memory and brain processes.

Ever thought about what creation really is? In my opinion, it's all about reproducing rythms we have encountered, but in a different media.
Very interesting hypothesis. I'm just trying to think about rythme and commonality between diciplines, yeh it makes sense, but it's not all inclusive. Based on this theory, we are all jamming in a big jamming session called life..cool..I really love this idea..

By the way, are you a jazz musician, just a guess!

jmBoekestein
05-27-2005, 07:39 PM
I'm guessing that as soon as we recognise(d) something with our brains, we immediately go to scanning for changes in it. Like a hunter for movement or prey for signs of the predator. This is inherently linked to time, and I think that after seeing the logic of the world when it happens, all those things are linked together pretty quickly. if the lines representefd moving objects they'd make those, 'tak'for a quick sharp edged line, and the softer sounding m for 'smooth'curves. Pretty interesting I agree. Something to use in film. Thanks for bringing that up, I'd have overlooked it maybe.


in writing by hand the takima would be intellectual and the other one would be emotional. :)

ashakarc
05-27-2005, 07:50 PM
in writing by hand the takima would be intellectual and the other one would be emotional. :)


Actually, if we try to make a composite of both "takimoma", we would start seeing a resemblence to writing,http://alishakarchi.com/painting/takimoma.jpg

cha0t1c1
05-27-2005, 07:53 PM
this looks like sikwoo, to me :D

Squibbit
05-27-2005, 08:03 PM
Thanks Squibbit, that is precisely the point, what makes you think 'maloma' is round, smooth and flowing?
How is logic inherent in our perceptions?!

even the mouth pronouncing it goes more smoothly with maloma

u got a round smooth stone in your hand and u throw it against
a rock it goes 'takita' and bounces off sharply :)
you take the same stone and roll it across a rock face and it goes 'maloma'
, yes? :D



.

ashakarc
05-27-2005, 08:04 PM
even the mouth pronouncing it goes more smoothly with maloma

u got a round smooth stone in your hand and u throw it against
a rock it goes 'takita' and bounces off sharply :)
you take the same stone and roll it across a rock face and it goes 'maloma'
, yes? :D
.
Hahaha..great example. :]

Jean Genie
05-27-2005, 08:29 PM
I'm just trying to think about rythme and commonality between diciplines, yeh it makes sense, but it's not all inclusive.

It's not all inclusive but it kind of makes sense all the way...

Ever read Edward T. Hall?
He's the one that sparked that idea (actually he made some highly interesting research on the subject).

I'm not a jazz musician, but hey, I do like jazz...

ashakarc
05-27-2005, 09:33 PM
Ever read Edward T. Hall?
He's the one that sparked that idea (actually he made some highly interesting research on the subject).
Absolutely, we studied his theory on spatial proximity as far as I remember, the bubble space that surrounds the individual changes from private to public space and from crowded to less crowded public spaces. I didn't know though he talked about rythme!! Any ref.?

Jean Genie
05-27-2005, 09:44 PM
Absolutely, we studied his theory on spatial proximity as far as I remember, the bubble space that surrounds the individual changes from private to public space and from crowded to less crowded public spaces. I didn't know though he talked about rythme!! Any ref.?

He did a book called The Dance of Life that deals precisely with how humans communicate with time (and their different rythms). An excellent read. He also tackles the subject in Beyond Culture which deals with many more subjects but is downright amazing.

ashakarc
05-27-2005, 09:58 PM
Thanks, I will look for it.

nineinchneil
05-27-2005, 09:59 PM
actually i would think it has to do with the consonants, not the vowels, like was previously mentioned. a 't' sound is a sharp one, while 'm' is a sort of a long moan.

Squibbit
05-27-2005, 10:10 PM
humans communicate with time

well they don't seem to be speaking the same language
cause time's always runnin out


maybe they're like insulting it cause it doesn't wanna stay

we should like catch it's attention to get more time?

how does one go about getting and keeping the attention of time ?


.

Jean Genie
05-28-2005, 12:56 AM
well they don't seem to be speaking the same language
cause time's always runnin out


maybe they're like insulting it cause it doesn't wanna stay

we should like catch it's attention to get more time?

how does one go about getting and keeping the attention of time ?

Well, it was about people communicating with each other by the way they deal with time (i.e. being late is a kind of insult), not about people communicating with Time The Great Sentient Being....

Or were you being funny?

StealthPharaoh
05-28-2005, 05:59 AM
besides the sound thing the word takita looks more like the first shape..the letter T and k are sharp but in the second shape it's more curvy and smooth like letters o and m

ashakarc
05-28-2005, 06:50 AM
besides the sound thing the word takita looks more like the first shape..the letter T and k are sharp but in the second shape it's more curvy and smooth like letters o and mAlthough I disagree about the shapes of the letters; because if you try to ask the question verbally with the sketches only, you get immediately the same answers; I find it interesting that in Arabic language it is also sharp in t&k and smooth in m&l as seen below:
http://alishakarchi.com/painting/letters.jpg
Not sure if other languages has similar things !! any ideas folks?

Squibbit
05-28-2005, 08:26 AM
Well, it was about people communicating with each other by the way they deal with time (i.e. being late is a kind of insult), not about people communicating with Time The Great Sentient Being....

Well, I don't know about "Great" , but it hasn't proven time isn't
sentient so how was I supposed to know :blush:

Or were you being funny?

certainly not! trees don't talk and even when they do in Lord of
the Rings people don't think it's that funny, so i dunno what
would make it so funny if time suddenly started talkin


.

Ordibble-Plop
05-28-2005, 08:48 AM
This reminds me of a Monty Python sketch - Woody and Tinny Words (http://orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/woodytin.htm) (gets a little naughty towards the end kids).

In synaesthesia, people experience a sense other than the one being stimulated (like the sight of the letter q may always activate the experience of a deep red colour; or a middle C played on a violin may always activate the experience of the taste of tuna). If everyone experiences the word-picture association it can't be synaesthesia, but it's not like a forced or acquired association either (like Christmas and the colour red) as no one teaches it to us. Very interesting!

jmBoekestein
05-29-2005, 01:56 AM
Well, I don't know about "Great" , but it hasn't proven time isn't
sentient so how was I supposed to know :blush:



certainly not! trees don't talk and even when they do in Lord of
the Rings people don't think it's that funny, so i dunno what
would make it so funny if time suddenly started talkin


.

Dude, time is just an abstraction we fabricated for ourselves. The actual thing going on basically is change. The constant in change is what defines time in most cases, allthough I haven't given it that much thought in this particular case :D. I'd say for instance, that all the things happening in our bodies happen with some change in chemistry, for instance light hits and we see something. If everything suddenly stopped and then started again (I mean absolutely everything in the universe) we wouldn't notice because there wouldn't be any chemistry happening in our bodies. Taking into account that we measure like this and most physical things are relative to energy present as opposed to a constant flow of things, there is no real time. Just an abstract we have to live by.

Take into account the black hole story, you must have heard about it. Gravity gets so high that for the spce traveller in it, time seems to speed up. But energy = mass and vice versa, so the more gravity (what makes mass happen as mass) the less energy can come out relatively and the less time seems to flow. :rolleyes:, does that make any sense at all?

And for your and my comfort, since we can't say that anybody or anything ever stopped the entire universe, we certainly can't prove there isn't a time being that can communicate with us. Or we to it. :D, wow, that's weird...I disapproved of my own theory, :curious:

Squibbit
05-29-2005, 02:34 AM
I don't get any comfort from not being able to stop the universe


.

Peddy
05-29-2005, 05:21 AM
good example of perception, but it left me assured that the 'answer' is both not surprising and commonly logical.

ashakarc
05-29-2005, 07:56 AM
good example of perception, but it left me assured that the 'answer' is both not surprising and commonly logical.
Hi Peddy, what do you mean by logical?

ashakarc
05-29-2005, 08:49 AM
In synaesthesia, people experience a sense other than the one being stimulated (like the sight of the letter q may always activate the experience of a deep red colour; or a middle C played on a violin may always activate the experience of the taste of tuna).

Yeh, 'q' is brownish, how one could explain this? No wonder tasty brown things have the sound of 'q' as in 'coffee', 'chocolate', 'whiskey', 'kebab', 'CGTalk'..oh no wait that is grey.

Here is a trick you can play with your friends:

Ask your friend to answer quickly and without hesitation the following questions:

Point to a white surface and ask quickly: What color is this?
Immediately, after they answer; ask this question: what do cows drink?
Haha, most probably, their answer will be; "milk, of course" :surprised

Squibbit
05-29-2005, 09:39 AM
yea, friends are strange, haha


.

Zack
05-29-2005, 10:06 AM
I don't think there's anything mysterious about the reason some sounds are sharper than others. It has to do with how your tongue works to make the sound (whether the airstream is stopped, etc.) If it were to be compared to musical articulations, it would be staccato and legato (or tenuto).

examples of legato consonants:

m (especially in the beginning of a word), (n), r, l, w, (s), (c like cell)

medium:

p, b, y, z, v


Staccato:

k, t, q, c (like cat OR cello)

Zack

Peddy
05-29-2005, 10:50 AM
by logical i mean it makes perfect sense, you can see why the words are associated with their respective diagram. if everyone choses the same answer, logic itself dictates that their choices must be logical.

ashakarc
05-30-2005, 02:51 AM
by logical i mean it makes perfect sense, you can see why the words are associated with their respective diagram. if everyone choses the same answer, logic itself dictates that their choices must be logical.Thanks. I think what you are referring to is 'common sense', which in itself doesn't have to have a logical structure.

Peddy
05-30-2005, 04:10 AM
Pretty much, but ive still seen people misuse the term 'common sense'. Like when you hear someone say 'people just dont have common sense nowdays'. wouldn't that make it uncommon sense? And then you get people like me who look at the term 'common sense' on a literal level by treating the term as two separate words instead of a term.
Common sense 'commonly' refers to a logical and sensical way of acting in certain situations, but you can also say that its simply the most common way a public acts, which is determined by its parts, not a whole.
Whoops, off topic =]. you get what im trying to say though, maybe.......:shrug:

ashakarc
05-30-2005, 04:34 AM
Whoops, off topic =]. Not at all, it is in the heart of the topic. Our common perceptions are a product of our commonly functional senses. If someone says 'people just dont have common sense nowdays' does not effectively grant merits to it.
I know this topic could open up different discussions and in all directions, but I didn't mean that.

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