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Array
10-14-2002, 06:37 AM
http://www.forbes.com/technology/newswire/2002/10/13/rtr749520.html

1.8 ghz in 2003 will turn a lot of people off. lets hope they can cram as much performance in those cycles as possible.

slaughters
10-14-2002, 03:18 PM
But, it is a 64 bit processor, and this is just the "Lite" version.

flipnap
10-14-2002, 05:23 PM
this is the core subject of the whole performance vs. speed issue. We are a mhz hungry crew.. faster is better.. a 64 bit processor rocks.. Take two garden hoses.. one puts out water at 100 pounds per square inch.. the other puts out 25 pounds per square inch.. everyone want the 100.. but what if the 100 is only 6 inches wide.. and the 25 PSI hose is thirty feet wide? See what Im saying.. Speed aint always where it counts if your yard is on fire..

Array
10-14-2002, 06:58 PM
here's a follow up to the story, Apple confirms that the chips are indeed for them:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/news/archive/2002/10/14/financial0309EDT0011.DTL

flipnap
10-14-2002, 07:03 PM
Awesome!!.. I especially love this part...

"Critics -- notably Intel -- argue that most desktop users have no need for 64-bit processing. In fact, Microsoft Corp. has yet to release a 64-bit version of Windows that will run on AMD's Hammer chips"

Intel never tried to render fur using dynamics simulations i guess.. Yeah i know, they said most 'desktop' users...

slaughters
10-14-2002, 07:47 PM
Funny. Another "Users will never need more than 64..." quote. (It would be funnier if it was from Microsoft, instead of Intel though)

Per-Anders
10-15-2002, 04:35 AM
this sounds awesome... i jsut hope they'll be able to up the mhz on these things a little bit more before next summer... then again without seeing real world benchmarks... which machine will be faster at rendering? the amd based pc or the ibm based mac?

Array
10-15-2002, 04:43 AM
AMD please....there are reasons why movie houses use mostly x86 based rendering farms, as opposed to Sun Sparc, Itanium, etc. Part of it is the fact that so many developers have become accustomed to the x86 architecture , another reason is that x86 based chips are very affordable, especially in bulk.

PureFire
10-15-2002, 05:40 AM
Apple smapple!....a long time ago Apple were actually faster but that day has since past....I say bury them.

Try walking in to any software store and picking up a copy of your favourite game or 3D program....i bet you walk out empty handed.

Both Intel and AMD are currently working on their own 64bit cpu's and have heard they will be released mid 2003.

Beroc-LOD
10-15-2002, 05:53 AM
OK... I am a guy who uses Macintoshes on a regular basis for work.... and a guy who uses pc's for gaming and 3d.....

In answers to "go try to find your favorites software for mac and you wont find it"... well try it.... you will find every mainstream release for pc in 3d gaming and design has been released for mac and pc both. Not everything, but enough to say... yeah, they are there....

As far as performance.... at no time has the most current Mac kept up with a pc.... except in this one area.... video performance... not 3d, but raw data crunching in video processing...

By far... the x086 processors are more compatible, simply cause the market is flooded with em.

Mac's however are very easy to use for the beginner, and very powerful for the desktop marketing people...(of which I am one)

as for pc's... all the same software is available for a pc... but they are designed for Microsoft Windows users... which evidently don't think striaght to begin with... (Just try to figure out how to network one... when you don't have a clue which of 50 million screens does that, Mac's talk to eachother very well, and most pc's too.)

As far as high end production, a current Mac will beat a current PC in video... always has... always will...

but maybe it is just me... but the OS is so incredibly slow, that the Mac makes me wanna scream most of the time...

In closing....

If you can understand which side I am on... Please inform me... cause I am still confused....


LOL

Juzz
10-15-2002, 05:55 AM
So, typical. The only 3d app unavailiable for the mac is 3D Studio Max.
What woulod be that game mac doesn't have & what does it matter if it doesn't?

visualboo
10-15-2002, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by Beroc-LOD
Mac's however are very easy to use for the beginner, and very powerful for the desktop marketing people...(of which I am one)
hehe... can you please elaborate (on both). I used to be one too.
My uncle once told me in a similar discussion (he's a die hard mac user) "They..... They have a START button. Whats that all about." As if that freaking apple button isn't there.

verti
10-15-2002, 07:17 AM
in my opinion threads like this are useless...

im wondering when the war will start...

everyone uses what he likes and wants to use... myself i dont use computers for games... but for work... they are my tools...

verti.

beaker
10-15-2002, 07:56 AM
>>Try walking in to any software store and picking up a copy of your favourite game or 3D program....i bet you walk out empty handed.

Purefire:

Yes, true with games, but when was the last time you saw any major 3d app in any store? I have never seen 3dsmax, maya, xsi, etc... in anywhere but a graphics reseller.

arvid
10-15-2002, 08:16 AM
The mac users are gettings used to having all their favorite apps ported and converted all the time the last few years with osX and all, now I guess that'll happen again :rolleyes: but at least maybe this time we'll get better crossplatform support for most apps since they'll be using x86 code as well. The mac is nothing short of a so called "PC" but with another OS, just as it should be. I think it's probably good that apple stop being so stubborn about going their own way all the time, they should drop the hardware department all together IMO, and start doing some good software for all OS's. They wont be able to compete with Windows in some areas, and not with Linux in other areas, but they do have their niche, and it's not in hardware..! they make human<>computer interfaces that ppl enjoy, nothing more...

(dont get me started on the whole shake business :annoyed: )

Grosserfrosch
10-15-2002, 08:16 AM
Strictly off-the-shelf computers, yes, a Mac will win in High-End graphics. But once you get into the more expensive graphics options, an PC will beat a Mac easily. Like a Wildcat III 6210. Between $2,500 and $3,000.

arvid
10-15-2002, 08:42 AM
....of course taking out of account the sheer speed of a new wintel machine vs any mac....

Jimzip
10-15-2002, 08:44 AM
I have had experience with both platforms for a long time, I use Mac's because it doesn't matter how simple they are, they are fast (OS 10.2 blazes along compared to OS 9 and even 10.1, and also when compared with a lot of Windows operating systems) and they are very helpful in getting things done because of their organised nature.
PC's I would use only if I had to work with Studio Max ;) , but you can get a Windows emulator anyway, (and it all works very well!) so you have the best of both worlds.
An operating system need not be complicated to use if you want work done on time.
I have no dislikes, but I definetely prefer Mac's.
:D

arvid
10-15-2002, 11:15 AM
I say the exact same thing, but opposite. But it's ok as long as you aknowledge the fact that everyone don't use computers the way you do. A mac will never suit my need, period.

flipnap
10-15-2002, 11:22 AM
what does the fact that IBM and apple will work together on bringing a new chip to the macs have to do with everyones prefernces about macs vs pcs? How does it always become a focal point of any mac related news?. ..I have to say that most of these answers have been pretty diplomatic in their approach so props on that - but what approah? I heard NVIDIA was working on some new stuff but Im pretty used to driving in my old car so i dont see why we need electrical cars...

arvid
10-15-2002, 11:28 AM
strange isn't :D

All it takes is for someone to state the obvious, and in 2 seconds you'll have a mac user deny everything, hardcoreusers or not, they do love those little things :)

flipnap
10-15-2002, 11:29 AM
what was "the obvious" and why are you attacking me? It seems you are taking this a little personally arent you?

arvid
10-15-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by flipnap
what was "the obvious" and why are you attacking me? It seems you are taking this a little personally arent you?


what no!! I was agreeing with you.!!! Sorry.. I was reffering to my own post before the last one about wintel machines. I agree these discussions allways get out of hand, and I just meant it's probably because of this love for these inanimate little macs.

ThE_JacO
10-15-2002, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Beroc-LOD
OK... I am a guy who uses Macintoshes on a regular basis for work.... and a guy who uses pc's for gaming and 3d.....

In answers to "go try to find your favorites software for mac and you wont find it"... well try it.... you will find every mainstream release for pc in 3d gaming and design has been released for mac and pc both. Not everything, but enough to say... yeah, they are there....



no max, no houdini, no XSI, maya for mac isn't exactly rocksolid, lots of plugins for the SW that are ported won't work..



As far as performance.... at no time has the most current Mac kept up with a pc.... except in this one area.... video performance... not 3d, but raw data crunching in video processing...


that must be the reason because of wich Avid is abbandoing the mac platform (despite having supported it for a long time)
the same because of wich softimage (when they still fully owned DS) didn't even ever bother about macs and the reason because of wich discreet always ran flame and inferno on SGI (soon to be switched to NT for their next gen app that will replace flame)


By far... the x086 processors are more compatible, simply cause the market is flooded with em.


very true, in the same way typography, press, prepress was once exclusively mac (and still is 75% based on it) because they won the market (initially due to quality, no doubts)
same goes for professional audio.

but the fact that more and more SW producers are now supporting XP (including digidesign with protools, unarguably the champion of the arena when dealing with sampling and mixing) is a hint about what most developers think about macs


Mac's however are very easy to use for the beginner, and very powerful for the desktop marketing people...(of which I am one)


very true as well


as for pc's... all the same software is available for a pc... but they are designed for Microsoft Windows users... which evidently don't think striaght to begin with... (Just try to figure out how to network one... when you don't have a clue which of 50 million screens does that, Mac's talk to eachother very well, and most pc's too.)


me and a linuxfreak friend (we were joking about ease of use and the such) had a bet a few weeks ago, my mom networked 3 PCs with windows XP only using the onscreen instructions.
1 laptop and 2 workstations.
what's so extraordinary ?
she's 68 and she never used PCs in her life.
won me 100Euros for that, gotta love moms huh ?
sure if XP feels like bitching you won't get out of it easily, not with the same kind of style and configurability you can have in linux, but so is for macs anyway, BSD under the hood or not :)


As far as high end production, a current Mac will beat a current PC in video... always has... always will...


sorry, i have to disagree here.
professional video is NT's domain.
check out any avid system from Xpress DV to film composer to DS.
And Avid is undeniably the apotheosis of video editing.
Also check out shake, nothing real was recently bought by apple, and soon it will support no more the NT platform.
You wouldn't sure say it's coded to take advantage of PCs only, yet is A LOT faster in linux or in windows then in OSX, same story for XpressDV, on PC it's about 4 times faster then on mac (i have it here, and i also have a few PCs and 2 G4s around, it comes with a dongle that works for both platform, side by side video is ALWAYS slower on macs in 4 apps out of 4 i tryied), and Xpress DV is exclusively SWbased, no need for HW that could be bottlenecking a platform or another


but maybe it is just me... but the OS is so incredibly slow, that the Mac makes me wanna scream most of the time...


10.2 is acceptably fast, actually, although i have had all kind of issues with OSX speed wasn't one of these.


In closing....

If you can understand which side I am on... Please inform me... cause I am still confused....
LOL

Possibly on the same side of mine.
the side of those whose judgement isn't so biased to look at platforms like if you were blindfolded :)

i like some things about macs, their P&P is really good (mostly because they have less things around then the PC market and so it's easier to track and certify everything); sometimes it's great to have a choice, sometimes it gets in the way of doing things quick.
They are also good with whatever isn't raster, vectorial graphics, some parts of photoshop (leave alone filtering for a moment and think of masking, painting etc.).
They are also rocking badly for audio, possibly because most developers don't have on XP 1/1000 of the experience they have on macs.
But if what you do is mostly about video or 3D the PC is a much more solid and practical solution atm, and it looks like it will be so for a while.
for Apple OSX costed a lot of time and resources as it is, and although it's now good it's far from perfect and supported yet, the perspective of Apple having to do another major rewrite (even if the kernel they are mutuating from BSD already has a 64b implementation) scares the hell out of me.

this thread has been surprisingly flamefree and reasonable up to now, i hope my contribution was at par, and this is about all i have to say, i'll avoid any follow-up so to not spam the board.
Any polite reply is obviously well accepted and will be read.

beaker
10-15-2002, 01:19 PM
>>I think it's probably good that apple stop being so stubborn about going their own way all the time, they should drop the hardware department all together IMO

That is the dumbest idea I have ever heard. Apple pulls in about 6 billion a year in revenue. The biggest software company in the world is autodesk(next to m$) and they pull in about 1 billion a year. Do you really expect Apple to throw away 5 billion in revenu per year when they are still very much profitable and pulling in money by selling over 5 million computers a year? Do you really think their software model would even work anymore since they give away 90% of their developed technology in order to sell machines? There is no possible way they could sell FCP for 1k anymore and there is no business in selling the i apps(imovie, ical, ichat, etc...) for anything more than $5.

sam
10-15-2002, 01:26 PM
Just as I think it best to be agnostic with your 3d program, it is also best to be agnostic with the OS.

For 3d performance, the current all around leader imho is Windows 2k SP2.

If this new 64 bit move brings Mac performance on a par or better than a Windows 2k based box then more power to them. I sincerely hope the mac gets better 3d performance. Gives people like me more options and drives the performance of 3d up all around.

If the macs manage to match 3d performance with these new 64 bit processors then they become a real nice integrated 3d/video/audio desktop solution but likely still not a strong enough solution to justify a studio or artist to switch over, especially with the expected arrival of 64 bit based intel solutions.

So kick back and wait until the dust settles. All these fluffy GUIS are easy to learn anyway. As long as you are not using windows 9x crap the OS is the least of your worries anyway.

The only thing I find truly annoying (and even damaging) is mac zealotry, you know, those die-hard mac users who base their love on the mac on an ignorance of computing in general. I think its overall very bad and creatively limiting that the mac community overall tries to keep its users naive and ignorant of the technical side of computers. If you are going to be a 3d artist you really need imho to overcome any fear of computing. So a big high five to any technically literate mac users out there. And if you are one of those technically naive mac users do yourself a big favor and learn about general computing.

Zealotry is bad whether its with programs or OSes. Agnosticism is good.

flipnap
10-15-2002, 01:43 PM
I couldnt agree more.. Its only a matter of time for macs and 3d.. i mean, at one point, you wouldnt even think about 3d without an SGI.. Then everyone was like "yeah right, 3d on a p.c.?" but it worked out rather well.. I also agree on the agnostic part but along with the mac zealot comment.. I think it very interesting how many of the arguments against this kind of behaviour are compromised by the same. I mean, Ive heard pc guys say straight out "macs suck!!" and they never even sat in front of one.. I had one guy say to me he remembers his first experience on a mac pissed him off so bad because he couldnt find the CD icon on the desktop to eject the disk.. I said, "All you had to do was hit the apple key and "E".. he was like, oh well i didnt know that - but macs suck.. I hear people raging against macs new ads , all pissed off saying "you never see microsoft on tv talking about how macs are hard to use!!" but nobody talks about the "MSN is so much better than AOL" commercials.. or the gateway unit hopping over the imacs (not to mention bending in ways it cant physically do which is deceptive) ..I think its interesting how biased people actually are when it comes down to it..P.C. guys are just as zealous as the mac guys - thats what makes me curious - theyre just passionate about hating macs.. nobody will admit it and evryone wants to be "politically correct".. I think its very cool thats its become "uncool" to flame.. but lets not kid ourselves.. we have become complacent in our choices and afraid of change, to the point of condeming others.. Face it.. computers suck.. Instead of sitting here arguing over the merits of OS, we should be contacting the R+D of these companies on a regular basis asking them re-pour the concrete instead of patching holes.. hey, heres an idea.. instead of a shiny blue bubble gui or a cool "XP" name, how about fixing the problem of gazillions of security holes and crappy code.. Its ridiculous that an os should ever crash.. Give me a stable OS and I would be satisfied.. I think i would even give up email for that one...

rant over...

arvid
10-15-2002, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by beaker
>>I think it's probably good that apple stop being so stubborn about going their own way all the time, they should drop the hardware department all together IMO

That is the dumbest idea I have ever heard. Apple pulls in about 6 billion a year in revenue. The biggest software company in the world is autodesk(next to m$) and they pull in about 1 billion a year. Do you really expect Apple to throw away 5 billion in revenu per year when they are still very much profitable and pulling in money by selling over 5 million computers a year? Do you really think their software model would even work anymore since they give away 90% of their developed technology in order to sell machines? There is no possible way they could sell FCP for 1k anymore and there is no business in selling the i apps(imovie, ical, ichat, etc...) for anything more than $5.




Clearly you missed my point.


They can sell whatever they like, but they should not go down their own path with standards and especially CPU's. Look at Dell, IBM or whatever, they sell systems, but they follow a standard!!

ThE_JacO
10-15-2002, 02:02 PM
everybody tends to defend something, it's some sort of self-defence.
Deep down inside, no matter how much we pretend we like to learn new things, we get excited about learning only a very limited range of them, and tend to self-convince ourselves that the rest is crap and not worth considering.

Self-persuasion sadly happens only thru an abundant flaming to persuade others.

Everybody's judgment is biased to a certain level, either because not many know both platforms equally well or becuase of personal tastes highlighting more the defects of one of the 2.

Just have a look at Linux in its purest form; on one side you have people praising it's opensource approach, the chance to get your hands dirty in the kernel, the degree of control that the log/conf/l/c scheme gives.
On the other side you have people hating that you HAVE to compile to really take advantage of it, that you HAVE to check an adjust text config files, that it is too scattered and not merged in one single registry you can backup/restore in one shot and so on.
The latter though praise the new DEs, the RPM(or deb, whatever floats your boat) system and the fact that these things are making linux easier; guess what ? the former radically hate all this funky stuff and say it's not linux anymore.
watching linuxVSlinux flames in some forums is entertainment in its purest form if u ask me :p :p

Things like this change with the time only, and only for dedicated people.
the same that were used to power animator (and said maya was a slowass visionaire app) that later on moved to maya and now praised it.
the same people that said XSI would never succeed, that 3D was more solid, faster, more scalar.. and now they use XSI.
the same people that loved SGI and said windows was too faulty, and now they realized wintel or linuxAMD is so much faster and cheaper and that, after all, BSODs don't happen so often.
hell i even hear a lot of macusers HATING macOSX, while me, being outside of the loop, i think it's a huge improvment over any 9.x and the danm static memory allotment.

well, anyway i still consider myself unbiased enough, if not for anything else because the only OS i really loved was OS/2 warp, the rest is all equally crappy to me :p

flipnap
10-15-2002, 02:12 PM
no doubt.. good post jacO

Mr. Brown
10-15-2002, 02:42 PM
They can sell whatever they like, but they should not go down their own path with standards and especially CPU's. Look at Dell, IBM or whatever, they sell systems, but they follow a standard!!

opacity, I think you're the one who missed a point. remember that Apple came first, IBM in second. and even before that was Xerox but they're making photocopy machines now. did IBM followed the Apple standard when Apple was bigger? no. but now that IBM is bigger, how can you blame Apple? frankly, I don't wanna get into that, I find it completely stupid. the only thing I can say is that a Mac can get information off a PC but try to do the same thing with a PC, but on a Mac. PCs don't read Mac files, Macs read PC files.

the way you work on a Mac is very different then on a PC. personnaly, I prefer working on a Mac. I'm more into graphic design then 3D and working in Photoshop, Illustrator or inDesign on a Mac is a lot more pleasing, shortcuts and all. the keyboard and OS shortcuts (close window, close program) layout is a lot better. but yeah, Macs suck for 3D. even though there's Maya 3.5 on OS X, it sucks. really. I've had my first Maya course on it at school, the interface is different (wonder why), it's slow, slow slow. anyway, I hate it.

simply put, pick up the one you prefer and that best suits your need.

another thing: I like to think of OSs has "concepts". keep in mind that not everyone on the planet is a power user. Apple is doing tremendeous research on usability to try to create the most intuitive system available. now don't go saying it's not intuitive to you if you use a PC. you got used going around on Windows (or whatever you use). pick a Mac user and ask him to perform specific and complicated tasks on Windows and do the same with a PC user but on a Mac. the PC user will perform them with a lot more ease on Mac OS.

Mr. Brown
10-15-2002, 02:46 PM
and why is this question still debated? why don't PC users leave Mac users alone vice-versa? if Macs are shit with pretty colors and Mac users are shitty assholes, why ain't PC users leaving them alone? and why ain't Mac users leaving PC users on their shitty and completely unstable OS?

damnit.

Mr. Brown
10-15-2002, 02:47 PM
liek Jaco said, they're all shit when you come to think of it. none's perfect.

i'll just stop posting now. 3 posts in a row. wahou! my mind is blowing with ideas!

Chewey
10-15-2002, 02:57 PM
I own and use both and I really hate arguing with myself. ;>

fwiw, W2K NEVER crashes on my machine and is very stable.

I stopped buying into the apple hype a couple of years ago. Also too expensive to keep up with. Their current ads only continue to emphasize the point that they are for dummies.

Mr. Brown
10-15-2002, 03:07 PM
well, can't defend that. their ads are really ridiculous.

frog
10-15-2002, 04:30 PM
Photoshop, Illustrator or inDesign on a Mac is a lot more pleasing, shortcuts and all. the keyboard and OS shortcuts (close window, close program) layout is a lot better

I take issue with that, much as I hate to get sucked in, :shrug: Windows has far more keyboard shortcuts than the Mac, and a far better implementation of OS shortcuts such as Alt-Tab to boot. When I use a Mac the only thing that really bugs me is having to use the mouse so much more than I do in Windows.

Close window and close program are the same anyway, control-w(command-w) and control-q (command-q).

Alt-tab on the mac takes you though every app that is open because it cycles through them all in a rigid order, in windows it does it in the order the apps were used so you can cut and paste between 2 apps without going through your mp3 player, email and browser everytime.

You can set up windows to open all of your apps from the keyboard. In fact you can navigate windows completely from the keyboard, something that is definitely not possible with a Mac.

In Photoshop try doing a stroke from the keyboard on a mac, on a PC you just hit Alt-E, then S.

Sorry to add fuel to this stupid argument...

arvid
10-15-2002, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Brown
opacity, I think you're the one who missed a point. remember that Apple came first, IBM in second. and even before that was Xerox but they're making photocopy machines now. did IBM followed the Apple standard when Apple was bigger? no. but now that IBM is bigger, how can you blame Apple? frankly, I don't wanna get into that, I find it completely stupid. the only thing I can say is that a Mac can get information off a PC but try to do the same thing with a PC, but on a Mac. PCs don't read Mac files, Macs read PC files.


ehh... Listen to me please...!

Macs save files in two fileforks, one containing the actual filedata and the other one containing icons, fonts, properties you name it. "Normal" OS's can't possibly read that since only macOs knows where and how the stuff is saved, it's a truly stupid way to manage files, however easy to use in a singlecomputer environment, like at home. Did you ever get an email with attachment from a mac user while on Windows? You'd get two of each file (especially concerning image files) , one a few Kb's large and then the real file, these are the fileforks which can't be interpreted. It's not that Microsoft refuse to read mac volumes, its only Apple creating stupid filesystems! It's easy to read DOS formatted volumes, and of course mac read "pc-burned" cd's, it's only because most burn applications use the ISO standard.. real basic simple stuff. Mac is about the only OS that want the apps to burn with mac volume format, that means that few can open those CD's, however WinXP does read them.

And about Apple being first... well why aint their stuff world-ISO-standard then??? Either because their shit sucks, or because they didn't want to play along with their competitors, they wanted to go down their own route, and so far they have, and it's not making my life any easier. Mixed networks are HELL.

I seem to be the only one that's glad that apple is finally decided to play along, and osX is hopefully a lot better at storing files.

(mac users seem to deny facts, so I guess I can expect to be called stupid a third time before this day is over, remember though, I only speak of experience)

Persons are not stupid, but big companies generally are..

Array
10-15-2002, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Mr. Brown
and why is this question still debated? why don't PC users leave Mac users alone vice-versa? if Macs are shit with pretty colors and Mac users are shitty assholes, why ain't PC users leaving them alone? and why ain't Mac users leaving PC users on their shitty and completely unstable OS?

damnit.

It's not that Apple users dont leave PC users alone, it's that Steve Jobbs wont leave them alone. His business tactics are absolutely disgusting. Im shocked that he isnt being prosecuted along with Bill Gates and his puppet Steve Balmer.

flipnap
10-15-2002, 07:16 PM
I read 67 pages of the the antitrust case against microsoft, so i can agree with you about Gate$, but what did jobs do that warrants prosecution? Along with trying to legally keep from being eaten by M$ and trying to run Pixar at the same time I think he's doing okay... Can someone enlighten me?

and as far as Steve Balmer... man, what can one say?!

for anyone who isnt aware of this little miracle, here you go

http://www.stenstad.net/storage/ballmer_dance.mpg

keep a happy eye out for the part where he sprains his ankle (no doubt due to his athletic build and tempered training) but marches on with the circus routine in spite of the pain.. professionally trained and incredibly well paid...

Array
10-15-2002, 07:25 PM
Apple's recent hostility towards Exluna and aquisition of Shake and ProTools should come to mind.

flipnap
10-15-2002, 07:27 PM
Thats not illegal... at least not the last time I checked.. If it was every bank in America would be closed and we would be burying money in coffee cans in the backyard (well, we should be doing that anyway)

Array
10-15-2002, 07:29 PM
it's anti-competitive practices. both shake and protools have been discontinued for the windows platform.

Xilica
10-15-2002, 07:42 PM
mmm good to know

flipnap
10-15-2002, 07:45 PM
So is incorporating a browser in your OS but its still legal isnt it? As far as the rest of it is concerned.. you have every right to be upset about it.. is what they did fair? well, i guess life isnt fair.. it wasnt fair that i had to buy a pc just to use maya.. You do know that most of the audio world uses macs right? Besides, its my guess that shake and all the rest of apples hungry buyout spree has consumed will end up as a super package anyway.. all things evolve.. i was pissed when i lost poweranimator but hey, maya turned out to be allright didnt it..?

And as far as exluna, you do know the backstory of exlunas origins right? And the lawsuit by Pixar? And the fact that Pixar and apple are tied? Whats there to be surprised about?

Array
10-15-2002, 07:53 PM
Yes I know exactly what happened with Exluna, and it disgusts me. I just hope Larry Gritz can make a living for himself at Nvidia.

flipnap
10-15-2002, 08:03 PM
yeah, i have mixed feelings about that whole scenario that will remain on this side of the keyboard.. The business world is a scheming, backstabbing and unstable environment - likened to the surface of venus.. I dont want any part of it thats for sure.. You read all the stories and think "How can that be? I just dont understand.. How can that be?" Things like Enron go down and its a glimmer of hope that at least the muck is coming to the surface and there might still be a chance.. Its all a sign - but I will also leave that alone.. maybe its book time?????????

Moisture
10-15-2002, 10:33 PM
Originally posted by Array
it's anti-competitive practices. both shake and protools have been discontinued for the windows platform.

just to get things right...
shake for win IS NOT discontinued
it isn't yet for sure since 2.5 is out for win, and so will prolly be the next release. The deal IS NOT discontinuing it at the very moment, they simply sell the OSX version for 5k and the other versions for 10k (that is the same pricetag it had before).

also since when did protools get discontinued ?
it's always been 100% mac, and now version 6 will be, in the same date, for both win and mac at the same price, same goes for the digi02 setup always from digitools

said this i hate apple's politics too, and i'm no big fan of macs, but please state facts correctly :)

beaker
10-15-2002, 10:40 PM
Array: you got a bunch of bad info somewhere.

>>it's anti-competitive practices. both shake and protools have been discontinued for the windows platform.

Apple didn't buy protools, Avid ownes it. Protools was mac only up till a year ago. They only recently made a few versions of it on windows, though 90% of the hardware configs for it are still on mac only.

For the shake side it isn't anti-competitive, you can still purchase linux and irix versions.

>>Yes I know exactly what happened with Exluna, and it disgusts me. I just hope Larry Gritz can make a living for himself at Nvidia.

Doesn't look like you know exactly what happend. Apple has nothing to do with exluna being bought by nvidia. Last I knew it was Pixar who was suing them, not Apple. The only connection between Apple and Pixar is that they have the same CEO, nothing more. This would be an issue you should have with Steve Jobs and not Apple.

beaker
10-15-2002, 10:44 PM
>>shake for win IS NOT discontinued

Moisture-

Yes it is discontinued. Only current customers with the windows version can get the 2.5 upgrade. All shake licenses are floating so technically you can purchase a license on linux and "float" it to a windows box. After 2.5 there will not be any more versions on windows. All of this was announced by apple 6 months ago.

Moisture
10-15-2002, 10:49 PM
only customers up to 2.46 can upgrade to 2.5 yes, but afaik the next version (if it will be a 2.7 and not a major) will be released for win as well.
i'm also quite positive that they will try to totally discontinue for win, but it's not YET :)
btw digidesign makes protools, it's an Avid's BUnit, but saying to any digidesign guy that protools is made by Avid will get you stabbed in very unpleasant zones of your body.
sorry to be picky, but this could save your life just in case u'll ever have to deal with any user or employee of digidesign :)

visualboo
10-15-2002, 11:21 PM
Muuuusst hoold baack....

beaker
10-16-2002, 12:10 AM
>>btw digidesign makes protools, it's an Avid's BUnit, but saying to any digidesign guy that protools is made by Avid will get you stabbed in very unpleasant zones of your body.

Yea, yea, I know. Was just saying avid for the sake of name recognition. It's just like toonz that is made by Digital Video, but it is called Avid/Softimage Toonz by most people.

Array
10-16-2002, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by beaker
Array: you got a bunch of bad info somewhere.

>>Yes I know exactly what happened with Exluna, and it disgusts me. I just hope Larry Gritz can make a living for himself at Nvidia.

Doesn't look like you know exactly what happend. Apple has nothing to do with exluna being bought by nvidia. Last I knew it was Pixar who was suing them, not Apple. The only connection between Apple and Pixar is that they have the same CEO, nothing more. This would be an issue you should have with Steve Jobs and not Apple.

What happened with exluna is this. Nvidia purchased exluna in december. Larry Gritz planned to continue the development of Entropy under Nvidia's supervision.

On an unrelated note Steve Jobbs decides it would be cool to sue Exluna and BMRT out of existance. He was so intent on his goal that he decided to PERSONALLY sue all members of the Exluna team for trade secrets violations (something pertaining to stochastic sampling). None of the employees of Exluna could afford to PERONALLY defend themselves against what was most likely a frivalous lawsuit, so they folded. Now Larry Gritz is robbed of a lifetime's worth of work, Nvidia is left without any rendering product, users and STUDENTS worldwide get royally shafted. Steve Jobbs sleeps well at night. THE END.

Array
10-16-2002, 01:27 AM
oops. my mistake. apple didnt acquire pro tools, they acquired Emagic's Logic Audio.

flipnap
10-16-2002, 01:29 AM
cant be the end because you never stated the beginning.. jobs didnt come out of the blue here.. exlunas core team came from pixar and it was questionable whether they brought their code with them or not from pixar.. that was jobs's interest in this matter.. he didnt sue them because of a personal vendetta because he feels like being a bad guy.. youre not talking about a bunch of bar-room buddies here.. this all falls under the dark veil of unscrupulous, yet legal business practices.. intellectual property etc... theres a WHOLE lot more to this than well ever know anyway.. in the long run a lot of people lose and trust me, I dont think jobs is real happy about it but you cant be nice to all of the people all of the time.. that equals bunkruptcy...

Marc Andreoli
10-16-2002, 02:03 AM
Originally posted by frog


I take issue with that, much as I hate to get sucked in, :shrug: Windows has far more keyboard shortcuts than the Mac, and a far better implementation of OS shortcuts such as Alt-Tab to boot. When I use a Mac the only thing that really bugs me is having to use the mouse so much more than I do in Windows.


The thing that botters me most about Photoshop (actually come to think of it, I guess this is a general windows thing) on the PC, is that all image windows are contained in a bigger application window. How friggin annoying is that. That is why you need shortcuts to switch from one app to the other because it is a pain to have two documents from different apps side by side. Kind of reminds me of DOS :rolleyes:

The other thing, the PC version seems to have a pretty uggly memory managment...which I guess is not a problem when you have a gig of ram and separate harddisks for system and programs, but I wonder why it is so painfull to run 3DSmax and Photoshop at the same time on my crappy 600mhz/256meg ram/30gig hd PC when I can run Photoshop and Lightwave without hickups on a 300mhz/192meg ram/4gig harddrive mac laptop...

yeah, fuel the fire, burn baby burn
:D

visualboo
10-16-2002, 02:30 AM
hahaha
The thing that botters me most about Photoshop (actually come to think of it, I guess this is a general windows thing) on the PC, is that all image windows are contained in a bigger application window. How friggin annoying is that.
lol, your surely a mac user from day one. That's one of those stupid things about macs that I simply can not stand. So your going to resize a window in photoshop and you "wiff" the edge.... ahhh, all the freakin windows dissappear and you end up on the desktop. Oh and to get back to your app, you have to go through multiple mouse movements and menu's.... just to bring it back up. And I quote, "How friggin annoying is that."

santiago
10-16-2002, 02:58 AM
I kinda like reading how mac and pc users chat together, lots of emotion that has little to do with computing is thrown here and there.

I got a question.

I've been reading now and then about how people really don't need faster computers. While it often takes us a while to render a single frame, most people do their office work and homework in real time. I guess the only aspect of computer use within the mainflow of computer users, the ones that make up 95% of the computer market, that has needs for speed is gaming, and that seems to be in the GPUs ball park, right?

I'm not so knowledgeable about puters, so bare wit me.

Some people are saying that Apple should give it up and follow the PC trend, wouldn't that be giving up to competition?
What if the operating systems decide that Windows should remain the only standar OS, wouldn't that kill competition?
I think the fact that MACs are so different than PCs, in various aspects, fuels competitiveness into the computer market.
I also think that MACs being marketed as easy to use is a response to the main market, that 95% I mentioned.
I don't even know if it's 95% or 99%, or maybe 80%, but it's that main bulk of people and companies and schools buying affordable computers.

I'd also like to point out that Apple has been quite the standard-setter in its own time, didn't they creat the GUI, mouse, WYSIWYG, plug-n-play, and all of that?
I'm even sure that ever since they started making stylish cases, all these funny-looking PC cases began emerging outta nowhere.

I don't even use macs at home, I've only used them at school, and on a few occassions working in a university. Still in their defense I should say that in my opinion thay have a place of their own in the world market that they have well deserved.


On another note, I hear that the fastest P4 has 50 million transistors, and that the new ATI GPUs have 110 million?
I've also heard that 3D workstations should have the GPU as the main processor and the CPU as an peripheral?
Ain't that sound weird? The 3D accelerator card as the mainboard, having its GPU as the new central processing unit... because the GPU is doing all the really hard work, it should have more access to resources like memory, hard drives, I guess. I dunno, what do the real computer geeks say about this?

beta
10-16-2002, 03:47 AM
just answer me this: how come i don't read about macs using RD or RDR ram? is it b/c that kindof ram is only made for intel based motherboards?

Marc Andreoli
10-16-2002, 07:28 AM
Originally posted by visualboo
hahaha

lol, your surely a mac user from day one. That's one of those stupid things about macs that I simply can not stand. So your going to resize a window in photoshop and you "wiff" the edge.... ahhh, all the freakin windows dissappear and you end up on the desktop. Oh and to get back to your app, you have to go through multiple mouse movements and menu's.... just to bring it back up. And I quote, "How friggin annoying is that."

hehehe, yes, it is even worse: I am an opressed mac user, they make me use a PC at work, put me in chains and all that:wip: Pssst, don't tell anybody, but they got me so used to 3Dsmax that I even have it running on a pc at home now. EVIL, I tell you. They know no limits...

I have not used OS9 in a while, but I am pretty sure you had to turn on a menu option to get what you are explaining. By default, switching to the desktop would just close down all the 'menu' boxes but you'd keep the documents on screen. Selecting the document would bring back the menus. Maybe I am wrong (I am getting old) but at least that is how it works in OSX, I just checked (you got me all confused).

:surprised :beer:

arvid
10-16-2002, 07:43 AM
I'm obviously in force of habit, but I think that all programs, especially those with floating windows in them (photoshop, afterfx for example) must have a solid frame so you do NOT see through to the desktop, it get soooooooooooo cluttered. I watch my coworkers as they use macs, and can never understand why this is good! Someone said, gets you quick access to other programs and the desktop, well I Alt-Tab between programs and winkey-M to 'minimize all' and that let me concentrate on one app at a time.

(no need to flame me, just a personal opinion, I'm sure there's about 5.56% of you reading this post wanting to disagree, you're entitled to, and there you go.)

beaker
10-16-2002, 07:46 AM
>>just answer me this: how come i don't read about macs using RD or RDR ram? is it b/c that kindof ram is only made for intel based motherboards?

This is because RDRAM is very expensive, almost 2x the cost and the speed is almost the same as DDRAM and it runs extremely hot and needs a dedicated fan blowing over top of it. RDRAM is not owned by intel, so anyone can use it. I believe the PS2 and the GameCube both use RDRAM for their video/system memory. DDR is more standard and cheaper. AMD and Intel both use DDR, so it is a much safer bet since there is more of a choice and competition. RDRAM is made by one company, DDR is a standard that many companies license and make just like SDRAM. You can use the exact same DDR ram from a pc in a mac.

frog
10-16-2002, 07:59 AM
I'd also like to point out that Apple has been quite the standard-setter in its own time, didn't they creat the GUI, mouse, WYSIWYG, plug-n-play, and all of that?

Haha, no. All that stuff was invented in the 1970s at Xerox's Palo Alto Research Centre. They invented pretty much everything we now associate with the desktop computer from the very first GUI, windows and icons, the mouse, Ethernet, Laser Printers etc. but never did anything with it. Steve Jobs and Bill Gates both visited the centre and "borrowed" a few ideas :eek:

arvid
10-16-2002, 08:02 AM
FYI, the mouse was invented by the swede Håkan Lans :)


edit:

In fact we was responsible for color graphics as well.

http://www.nasbydal.taby.se/projekt/Inventors/lans/hakan_lanseng.htm

Array
10-16-2002, 08:14 AM
hey opacity, how come you're not in your IRC channel? :beer:

arvid
10-16-2002, 09:09 AM
hehe :) I will be later tonight, I don't use IRC at work :beer:

Skeeter33
10-16-2002, 02:50 PM
aight, i'm just gonna post my 2 cents here:

in raw processing power... if you want to take this to extremes, pc kills mac with a big dirty fork. Two words- 512 processors. And im not talking about a network either.

I have heard that a mac better handles colors than a pc. i know nothing about this, and truly, i couldn't care less. i just want to know where my red and white are when i go to draw my candy-cane in pbrush.exe. (mac users: whatever the crapiest drawing program u can find for mac == pbrush.exe)

64 bit processors: no one is gaining an advantage. Both pc's and macs will move to this. both Windows and MacOS will be updated for this, and thousands of software companys across the world will be left to write an upgrade, which, we will all most likely pay for.

3d processing: I dont care what is doing the render as long as it gets done, sooner = better. wth does it matter what machine is rendering? if mac takes longer and people have the time to spare to use mac, let them. If pc's take longer, let them. If everyone wises up and does a real bench-test in a program with the same options on both types of computer, with the same approximate specs equivilently, there you go.

Greatest thing that no one notices, is that everything is RELATIVE! If your 'top of the line PC' is equivilent in power to an appleIIe, and your Mac is a G4, uhm like DUH. Which do you think will be faster. The most obvious problem is that the mac and PC architecture are different as of now. I issue a challenge that when MACS and PCs are using the same processors, same speeds, same approx memory specs, same approx bus speeds and so on, that someone does a bench test with a standard install, no options changed, of each OS and 1 3d app, render the same file on both using the same process, and find out which goes faster. Then you can take this info, and stick it where the sun don't shine because it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to anyone when it comes down to it.

Go back to playing your games, drawing in 3d, working, or whatever and abandone this. This is about as pointless as debating which type of tire-rim is better for your car. You know what, THEY ALL DO THE SAME DAMN JOB!

LOL!

arvid
10-16-2002, 03:19 PM
In the old day, a mac was the best way to get WYSIWYG for printing jobs etc because there's colormanagement and calibration utilities of some kind, it's a big reason why macs have been the computer of choice for so many that do this sort of thing.

visualboo
10-16-2002, 03:37 PM
Yup, that's one area that I'll deffinitely give to the macs. Color Calibration.

Marc Andreoli
10-16-2002, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by opacity

(no need to flame me, just a personal opinion, I'm sure there's about 5.56% of you reading this post wanting to disagree, you're entitled to, and there you go.)

that is ok, you know you are going to burn in hell for saying such words anyway. Repent, I say...

:D

arvid
10-16-2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Marc Andreoli
that is ok, you know you are going to burn in hell for saying such words anyway. Repent, I say...

:D


but I dont even believe in Jeebus :wip:

Marc Andreoli
10-16-2002, 04:29 PM
burn him now !
hehe, fire, fire, destruction :applause:

arvid
10-16-2002, 06:15 PM
Originally posted by Marc Andreoli
burn him now !
hehe, fire, fire, destruction :applause:

:surprised

BrandonD
10-16-2002, 07:38 PM
And for folks like us, the CPU with the strongest Floating Point Unit is the best.

DropZone.dk
10-16-2002, 09:52 PM
:hmm: Cant help wondering, 5% Mac's in the world - fair enough! But just cuz 95% uses PC like machines, does that make it right?:rolleyes: Not to me it doesent.

When I'm a Mac user - and I LOVE it - things work for me :)
When I'm a PC user - yes i do that - PC stuff works for me :)

I use different platforms for different tasks - just like you should. Never use a screwdriver to cut a weddingcake! (I know it will do the job but it wont be nice)

anyways.... Merry Christmas (is that to soon?)

visualboo
10-16-2002, 10:43 PM
lol... I use scissors to cut pizza! Fit that into your analogy :D


Try it some time. It works GOOD.

santiago
10-17-2002, 12:07 AM
Xerox invented all that?
I'm so improperly informed.
What can we gice Apple credit for, besides the colour calibration?

flipnap
10-17-2002, 12:19 AM
Actually you cant give credit to anybody for anything.. Most cool things we have were actually created by someone else for another reason than what your doing with it right now.. military, etc... The developers of the mouse couldnt figure out why on earth someone would want to hold a mouse when they could have both hands on the keyboard.. I suppose apple gets credit for taking stabs at new ideas, some better than others.. for example, the GUI (windows) was a good move, the cube- not so good.. the one button mouse is still in debate.. i personally would like to have a dual mouse setup with all ten buttons hot mapped but noone can help me configure this with drivers so im outta luck....

santiago
10-17-2002, 04:40 AM
I think that some credit should go to those who actually make an invention applicable and known. Don't ya think?
By the way... who invented USB?
And... who invented firewire?

I used to be sure that Phillips invented the CD, but now I'm totally doubtful, maybe it was Xerox too. :)

Hey! What's the worst computer invention for you guys?

beaker
10-17-2002, 06:52 AM
>>By the way... who invented USB?

Intel did.

>>And... who invented firewire?

Apple did. The inventors of it left apple back in 96 to form a company called Zayante. Then Apple went and bought the company a few months ago.

Jimzip
10-17-2002, 07:12 AM
Hee hee. People are funny.
Hype leaving thread now...
Normal conversation returning.... now...

So, about that IBM chip.. :cool: lol



Look, everyone enjoys the operating system that they use most(Probably the reason they use them the most..:hmm: ).. Nobody is wrong, nobody is right. Facts are facts, and we all need our beloved machines for different things.

Do well children, we are all friends here:wavey: .

Mr. Brown
10-18-2002, 01:14 PM
opacity
never said you were stupid, sorry if you got that wrong (or did i get your reply wrong?). guess i'm learning some new stuff on macs today.
anyway, they're cute. let me love 'em! (joking :p)

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