Riggin the Friggin' face

[LucentDreams]

seems sensible enough to me, I have never done facial animation with bones before so I'm not sure but looks like this could do a fair bit. one of the nice things I have seen in facial bone rigs is adding bones that help break of symmetry, like Taron had a rig where there has a vertical bone oon the left side of the upper lip so that when the mouth opened the left lip lift a little differently giving it that oh so popular john travolta crooked grin.

Can's wait to see what oyu come up with

[CosmicBear]

i guess, in order to be able to have more flexibility in your face, you will have to add some more bones.

i would at least add some bones for the sides of the mouth, for the middle part of the upper and lower lip.

i've come up with my own bone-setup for faces, maybe it will help you:

i create vertex-maps for the different parts of the face (e.g. the right side of the upper lip, the left side of the upper lip, the middle of the upper lip)) and create four bones, which I give restriction tags. one bone for each each part of the upper lip and one, which has all three vertex maps alligned to it.

then i create null-objects which i place right at the end of the bones and allign the bones to the null-objects. instead of moving the bones directly, you can move these null-objects.

you can even even add more null-objects and organize your 'mover', as i call them (e.g. entire upper lip, right side of mouth, left side of mouth...)

these null-objects have to be included inside the face-object, so when you move it around, they will follow.

you can animate the face easily with automatic keyframing the positions of the movers.

i'll post a picture in a couple of minutes to show you some results :)

[CosmicBear]

here's the pic (the O-shape needs work, i know ;) but pretty much any other phenom works quiet well for him)

i set the lower teeth-row and the tounge to invisible, so you can see the inside of the mouth.

same setup for the cheeks and eyebrows.

it also gives you the advantage of copying different face-poses. it is not as good as pose-sliders but easier and faster than PLA-animation and gives you a bigger range of expressions than morphtargets

sorry for the poor quality, but OS X seems to hate me today and doesn't allow me to work properly in photoshop..

[That Adrian Guy]

Wow Cosmic, that's a really good idea!

I was thinkin about it, it seems as though by boning the face, I throw any hope of using lip synchin' out the window.

Hmmmmmm!!!!

[CosmicBear]

well, lip-syncing is still quite difficult with cinema (7) as it doesn't allow audioplayback directly in the program. so you will need a good dope-sheet of the audiofile.

when you rig the eyebrows of the face, you might want to use at least three different bones for each eyebrow. one for the beginning, one for the middle and one for the end. this way you have the possibility to get it into basicly any shape you want to from angry over surprised to sad. again another bone for the entire eyebrow means more data, but also more controll. :)

[phobos]

Sorry for breaking the subject but where can I find a cinema tutorial for boning a face.I'm sorry but the manual isn't very helpful.Cause it only describes the tools.If you don't know how to use them than these informations aren't valuable.
Thank you and sorry for breaking the subject.

[prayas]

started a similar thread some weeks ago but did not work on this till now! That is a pretty nice idea cosmic posted there! Will try it also.

When breaking the thread i will also post a question in here! how do i make the eyes look in a special direction! I normally use a symetryobejct for the eyes and only build one eye in there! But maybe i will need two eyes! How do i make them look at a target like let's say uppe left corner or down to the floor?

P..:

[CosmicBear]

sorry, i don't know of any good tut how to bone a face. i kinda took my animation:master-experience into c4d and used the trial-and-error-(lots of errors!!!!!!!!!!)-method to figure it out

how to set up eyes (well, again, my own way) :

first: i always model them at the zero/zero/zero-position and move them into place afterwards.

i have two individual eyes.

one eye is build like this:
create a sphere, make it editable and turn it around, so the top of the sphere is facing forward instead of upward. i then move the two rings of polygones round the top inwards to make the iris and the pupil.

create a second sphere. make it a bit bigger than the first one. create a material for the 'liquid' that surrounds the eye and align it to this object

put these two spheres inside an null-object. if it's not already facing this way, turn the axis around, so the z-axis is facing toward pupil-center of the eye. name that null-object 'eye_left'

create another null-object, call it 'eyefix_left'. move this null-object along the z-axis of the 'eye_left'-object away from the eye, so it's outside the eye.

you know create a target-expression for the 'eye_left'-object. target it to 'eyefix_left'

dublicate the eye (the null-object 'eye_left' and both spheres) and rename it to 'eye_right'. dublicate the 'eyefix_left' and again rename it to 'right'
doubleclick the target-expression of the 'eye_right' and align it to 'eyefix_right

you now have two individual eyes, that will always look at these two fixpoints.

now you can move your eyes into position. don't forget to move the eyefix-objects into position as well. let the eyes look straight forward.

now you can create another *he he* null-object, which you place right in the middle between the eyefixes. in the object-manager, move both your eyefixes into this object and name it 'eyefix_both'

so, from now on, when you move the eyefix_both-object, both eyes will follow it. if you want to move the eyes individually, you can move one of the eyefix-objects seperatly.

i hope, that helped! :)

[kiwi]

Thanks Cosmic Bear :thumbsup: ....thats excellent info :)


Three bones for each part of the facial anatomy thats a really good idea :)


There may be some facial boning tutes come along with the full release of 8.


Stu.

[That Adrian Guy]

I agree! Cosmic, you've been really helpful!

How come we haven't seen more of you around in this forum!?!?

It's really nice havin ya!

[CosmicBear]

thank you http://www.cosmicbear.de/icons/blushed.gif i'm glad i could help.

i have discovered this forum only a little while ago and have done more reading than writing. i will be here on a regular base and will try to contribute my two cents if my time allows it http://www.cosmicbear.de/icons/wink4.gif

[flingster]

CosmicBear: this is fantastic info. As if never done anything like that before it maybe a dumb question....but I was wondering whether there are any benefits of rigging say along the face as with the "That Adrian Guy" image and yours where they extend from the centre of the head outward to to face. (hope this makes sense..). I have seen a taron rig where he aligned the bones along the face when he was using messiah...I like the look of either method and as always they look simple but you can bet a lot of trial and error went into them. If the end result is the same then i suppose its a matter of choice...just wondered about benefits of either if you knew? Would you get the same result on either rig say when the eyebrow was raised...assuming you used the same number of bones?

Thanks again for all the info....glad you finally found cgtalk.

[CosmicBear]

well, i guess, there is a benefit in both systems.
i tried out the system where you align the bones along the face, like the picture from adrian suggests. it does give you controll over the different bodyparts but not enough from my point of view. with the bones coming from the center

with the bones coming out of the center, i find, that it gives me more controll over the face (okay, i am a controll-freak). and as i wrote above, i don't move the bones itself, but align them to a null-object which i move around. with this, i find, that i can have much more bones in the face without getting confused. i set the bones up and put them on invisible and will never see them again (hopefully). additionally, i have the 'movers' organized in different groups (mouth, cheeks, eyebrows, forhead, eyelids,...) and have the onces i don't need also set on invisible.

spike (the tomate above) has 44 bones for his face to simulate the facial-muscles (3 in each corner of the mouth [top, bottom, outside], 3 in each lip [center, left, right] one additional bone for the thickness of his lower lip, one for the entire mouth, four in each cheek, four for each eyebrow, four for the area above his eyebrows, four around each eye, two for the area between his eyes (where normally his nose would be)

let me give you an example:

the setup for the null-objects looks like this in the object manager then:

eyebrow_right
-- eyebrow_r_beginning
-- eyebrow_r_middle1
-- eyebrow_r_middle2
-- eyebrow_r_end

each null-object has an idividual bone, which is aligned with a target expression to the individual movers.

so i have basicly five controllpoints for the eyebrow.

with the other system you have two, maybe three controll-points and it's kinda hard to stretch out the eyebrow. if you watch your face in the mirrow while making different faces, you see, that your eyebrow stretches and squiches (right word?? i mean, it gets shorter) than the relaxed pose.

i guess, i have to point out, that this system produces ALOT of data! but again, it gives you the possibility to have a face, that can show basicly every expression you desire (within reason, of course)

i've been asked to write a tutorial, but unfortunalty, i have to decline this for now. i am in the middle of my graduation-project from college http://www.cosmicbear.de/icons/yikes.gif and don't have the time. but i will answer your questions here in the forum, i promise! http://www.cosmicbear.de/icons/cap.gif or contact me via mail or ICQ

[CosmicBear]

this image might help you to figure out where to pose some movers.

i just read my own posts again. i guess, there are some points in it, which are not so clear, so keep asking.. http://www.cosmicbear.de/icons/blushed.gif

i apply the vertex-maps for the bones to the low-poly-object and let hypernurbs do the smoothing for me of course :)

the green dots show, where i have movers placed, the blue dots show the movers, that influence the connected green dots.

am i making any sense???? http://www.cosmicbear.de/icons/hypnotized.gif

[prayas]

That really works! Waited for an idea like this! hopefully get the time to do a full setup during the next days!
Will post my results over here.
THX again
P..:

[CosmicBear]

okay, as i can't really describe of how i create this setup, i have created a scene, which shows you how to do it.

unfortunalty, i can't upload it to my webspace in order of too much traffic within the last couple of month. contact me at CosmicBear@gmx.net and i'll send the scene to you (it's only 24 k)

[prayas]

Here it is! A simple but good setup!
Let the lipsync Masters start.hehe

Thanks to cosmicbear for the file

Link for the setup (http://www.prayorpanic.com/__v3/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=47)

P..:

[matty2x4]

http://www.famoustech.com/animation/index.html

seems to work in everything but Cinema...
oh well:shrug:
it would be nice
2x4

[AdamT]

Here's a pic of a facial bone setup put together by a professional rigger in Messiah:

http://members.directvinternet.com/amtberg/m_a_bones.jpg

[That Adrian Guy]

THis is a pretty good thread... right on!


So I'm experimenting with the bones that start from the center and radiate out to the face... They work really well!!!

however....

I think the bones have to be more localized. for example... if I start the bones from the center and make the eyebrow bones... I can only move up so far before it "digs into the skull"


But the concept is fantastic! I'll post the layout once I can figure one out.

(joy, I'm animating a face!) he he

[prayas]

That messsiah: setup looks kind of weird! Dan't really figure out what all the bones are for! Maybe it was a professional rigger but i don't see a way through there!

I will work on a tutorial on Cosmics method tonight.

P..:

[AdamT]

Re: the Messiah setup--the mouth is similar to cosmic bear's setup, only it uses two bones for each position. This gives the advantage of being able to make the lips move in and out as well as up and down.

A lot of the bones are parallel to the face because if they run from the center the rotation will cause the face to cave in. There are bones to control eye blinking, nose movement, cheeks, brows, jaw--the whole deal.

In the Messiah file, the whole rig is controlled with sliders, e.g., frown slider, smile slider, etc., so it's really easy to animate. You could do the same thing in R8.

[prayas]

i read about this motion mixer thing in R8 but right now with Maxon not providing a demo i can't test it.
What about programming sliders in R7? I don't know how to!
Worked over the setup a bit and will provide the tut hopefully tonight.

P..:

[CosmicBear]

yeah, i totally agree with you guys. with a face that is alot higher than a tomate you will have to move bones away from the center!

i have applied this setup-system only to vegetables this far (as they are the stars in my graduation-project) and there faces are all based on cubes.

before i started to do character-animation with cinema, i did all my CA in animation:master, where you have the sliders integrated in the program.

the picture with the messiah-setup looks good to me, but again, in this case you have to deal directly with the bones. this is what i wanted to avoid, as it can get easily confusing (loot at the mouth or the eyelids)

[flingster]

thanks for the info, as i pointed out i'm not really up on the old bones front. On the rig posted above "professional rigger" why do they set say the eyebrows with a bone coming out from the middle of the head and seemingly attached to another bone aligned along the face. Is this a combination of the two methods earlier eg a prayas/cosmicbear combo?

ps. thanks to cosmicbear for the file and the prayas link for download

for anyone who's interested the movie i talked about earlier from messiah.(385k) The taron rig i mentioned.
http://www.projectmessiah.com/x2/vids/messiah_carlfacebones.mpg
website quote:
"The blue bones are messiah's "muscle bones" and they expand
and contract as they're pushed and pulled just like real muscles.
The gray bones are normal bones that keep their solid shape."

[Per-Anders]

i believe that bone would give a little more control to the frown or concentration setting... for instance for those one eye closed in concentration moments, rotating the bone along it's z axis combined with the eyebrow bones gives a much more convincing lowered or raised eyebrow, also moving this bone gives a more natural concentration look/frown than moving eyebrow bones alone (which would move the outer brow area too much), you can control the crease with it too.

that messiah example does look very impressive, but i don't see those muscle bones keeping their volume... they look more like tendons to me, i presume that they work by changing their length only?

[LucentDreams]

mmm muscle bones ;)

http://www.cgi.third-era.com/~kaiskai/muscle.mov

example created by Janine I believe, someone correct me if I'm wrong. but its possible in C4D this was early in the beta test stage too.

[AdamT]

There's a sample scene in the EB release that uses a muscle bone--similar to Janine's example. So yeah, it can be done in R8.

In messiah you have the option of only increasing the length or both length and volume for muscle bones. I heard those snickers!!

[Per-Anders]

now if only we had a very simple "fold" deformer (like the maya one) for getting those joints to bend convincingly, and a timeline/f-curves node (for repeating/controlling movements/animation blocks using expressions).

[That Adrian Guy]

Cosmic! it works!

The bones are still really really rough, but here's how she's lookin!

http://www.geocities.com/adranmor/madanimechick.txt

Wadaya think???

[LucentDreams]

she went from cute and innocent to EEEEEVIL

[That Adrian Guy]

Don't worry, she's gonna stay cute and innocent!

It's just an exagerated expression = ) It is kind of... umm... unfitting on her isn't it?

[LucentDreams]

no I like the expresion, she's the perfect backstabber I think

[prayas]

hehe nice result so far! like her looking kind of evil! May just a little red glow on the eyes and a little bit old horrormovie style music and you got your animation!:)

think your there although the eyes are looking kind of if the need some attention! Maybe just my point

p::.

[That Adrian Guy]

Her?

Do anything bad??? NEEEEVERRRR!!! he he he

http://www.geocities.com/adranmor/animechickhappy.txt

[kiwi]

Damn this is a good thread :thumbsup:


Adrian lift the bottoms of her eye lids up so she has an almond shape to her eyes.



I like evil as well,especially with bright red lip stick :)



Stu.

[prayas]

@kiwi you just said it right!

Been searching month for a good way rigging charcters and faces and now really found someone who could help!

adrian really nice work hope to see some animation stuff with her.


P..:

[CosmicBear]

great adrain!!!

as it seems, you will be able to have her in basicly every expression you want to! that's fantastic!

can't wait to see more!

[AdamT]

I'd forgotten about this, but it's a pretty good tutorial on setting up basic facial bones: Cow Tutorial (http://www.creativecow.net/articles/hauth_sven/sun/index.html)

[matty2x4]

lookin good.
So was the rig anything like your original pic/guess?
Can we have a look at a screen grab with the bones?
So when is the tutorial coming out:cool:

[CosmicBear]

Originally posted by AdamT
I'd forgotten about this, but it's a pretty good tutorial on setting up basic facial bones: Cow Tutorial (http://www.creativecow.net/articles/hauth_sven/sun/index.html)

i know this tutorial. this is actually the reason why i started to work on my own setup-system. this is definitly a good way for lip-sync in cinema, but it is kinda hard to aquire different emotions within the face with this system. instead of creating the expression you need, you have to plan in advance what you are going to need. or you will have to interrupt the actual animating-process in order to create the emotion you want.

also, it makes the different phenomes kinda 'jumpy'. they don't blend into each other that good.

[flingster]

AdamT: well spotted.

talking of which....couple of links might be useful to people.

lip-syncing and facial animation
http://www.computerarts.co.uk/tutorials/type/tutorial.asp?id=24904


lipsync: phoneme examples (hash)
http://www.geocities.com/~gcmartin/phoneme_examples.html

[flingster]

very very nice info here.
lipsync...sorry about cross post but you know its the next question!

http://www.comet-cartoons.com/toons/3ddocs/lipsync/lipsync.html

[That Adrian Guy]

It really sucks that I'm going to have to lipsync it the old fashioned way... the very tedious way!

Oh well, my face is moving and I'm REEAALLY happy about that.

you know... this means I'm going to have to model an inner mouth! This is the part where the cartoon anatomy will really be put to the test. I'm going to use a completely different mesh for the mouth though. It's so nice when you can quickly select the mouth mesh it instead of having to hide the cheek poly faces to reach it.

Anyway! It'll probably be Sunday before I post that pic

So don't let this thread die before then!!! Kay??? :p

:buttrock:

[flingster]

cartoon mouth huh....well how about cartoon tonsils when she shouts at the audience in that evil way she has.....

[kiwi]

That dangly thing in the back of the throat is called a uvula {sp} I think :D


Ya a vibrating uvula when she yells would be cool.



Stu.

[kiwi]

Heres a pic of the eye shape I meant...keep in mind this is still very wip at the moment and needs lots of tweaking :)


Stu.



Sorry it keeps on adding the image as an attachment when its just a normal jpg,I am gonna have to sort out why.

[kiwi]

This time I pre zipped it....anyone have any idea why this jpg would not upload like they normally do?



Stu.

[flingster]

kiwi: you're sick....people are not supposed to know stuff like that...but thanks anyways....you never know when you might need to know what a uvula is in the next pub quiz!!

ps. eye looks good...right hand ridge on right of image is to deep and is beginning to kink....but you knew that....far better than my poorly attempt at an eye before tweaking....and come to think of it after tweaking.:rolleyes:

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