horrible nasty *&$$#@! crash

[Lunatique]

I feel your pain. I've been trying to stay away from Painter recently too due to the heavy magenta banding problem. I'm sticking to Photoshop for now until Corel fix this problem. I've had to repaint and touch up too much because of it, and I don't want to deal with it anymore. I really do like Painter a lot, and it's my tool of choice for painting. It's a shame that the stability isn't the best.

[Brucie Rosch]

Thanks for the words of empathy Robert! (Love your work, by the way. When mine is a little further along, I'll post some for some feedback.)

I'll keep using Painter using a 'backups of backups of backups' workflow and see how it goes... I sure hope the Corel/Painter team is working long long days on the stability issue.

I don't know how anyone else feels, but I'd rather they pare down the umpteen zillion variants of tools and focus on making the few that are exceptional even better (the oils, the chalks, pens, pencils, calligraphy variants and the watercolors, and the canvas and paper textures and layers).

And make it all rock solid stable and worthy of our trust.

(hint, hint: I don't need the image hose and the the textile patterns!)

I'd rather they split the program into two parts with basic tools and fun stuff for one group of users and a professional set for PainterPro users:
1) stability first
2) performance
3) large, high res paper textures (access to 8GB+ RAM for those who want to spend the $$)
4) pro color management (accurate cmyk preview while working in rgb)
5) more and more real world tools and realism
6) keep improving integration with other flagship graphics programs (Photoshop, Illustrator, maybe video and motion editing programs, maybe 3D too)

Charge the current prices for PainterPro and less for PainterFun. I don't know if Dabbler or some other PainterLite program still exists... maybe they could just give us more options on our installation, choosing which type of program we want to install...

I don't know the best way to solve this. What I DO know is this:
"Painter" does not equal "professional tool"
Not with the current state of the program, it doesn't.

[Jinbrown]

While everyone who uses Painter wants it more stable, and anyone who has half a brain can understand and relate to your concerns when you lose work and time, it seems that your vision is a bit limited.

Do you actually believe that your professional work ("PainterPro") is more important and deserving than that of other professionals who do want and use some of the items you'd like Corel to cast off into a for-fun amateur, dabbler like software, or does it just sound that way?

There are plenty of professional users working in many other fields, who want and need to use in their work some of the items you seem to think are only for fun, for amateurs.

If Painter were limited to only "PainterPro" users who do the kind of work you do, Corel would not bring in money from the many, many other professionals.... childrens' book illustrators, architectural illustrators, medical illustrators, graphic artists, fine art artists, photographers, and more. Loads of Painter users are not professionals and yet they buy the program new and buy upgrades which in turn supports Corel which in turn supports Painter .... and, ultimately, you and me when we use Painter.

This illusion that somehow there are more deserving users is nonsense.

Do you take the same view when people working in all kinds of professions use Photoshop, or feel the same way about non-professionals using Photoshop? Surely you can't think Photoshop should only be for "PhotoshopPro" users who are in the line of professional work you are! As with Painter, there are loads... and loads... and loads of non-professionsl Photoshop users ranging from bored housewives to retired men and women coming from work experience unrelated to either photography or art in general.. and who are just having fun..... and, by the way, have earned the right to have fun!

The fact that we have problems with Painter is no more due to there being things you don't use or want in it than problems with Photoshop are due to there being things I don't want or use in it. Nor are these problems due to, or even related to, the kinds of users each program has.

Some of the things you say you don't want in Painter can be removed by you and remain available for people who want them:

• Empty out your default Patterns library, leaving only one Pattern in it so Painter will open correctly.

• Empty out your default Papers library leaving only one Paper in it so Painter will open correctly.

• Empty out the default Nozzles library leaving only one Nozzle in it so Painter will open correctly.

• Delete your Script library file and Painter will automatically generate a new, empty Script library the next time Painter is launched.

• Create a new brush library containing only the brush categories and brush variants you use and load that brush library (or move a backup copy of the default Painter Brushes brush library to a folder somewhere outside of both the Painter Application and User folders, then rename your custom brush library Painter Brushes so it will automatically load each time Painter is launched).

Yes, there is a light version of Painter and has been for years. It's bundled with Wacom tablets: Metacreations Painter Classic 1, procreate Painter Classic 2, and currently Corel Painter Essentials. Even those light versions have brought many people to full Painter versions and gained Corel more customers whose money ultimately supports what you're asking for.... improvements to Painter.

There is no one so special that others who are not "special" should be herded into a less desirable corral just to make those so special people feel special.

Now to end this, I'll say again that I empathize with your difficulty and it may surprise you but I've been working hard for Painter improvements for a long, long time, putting more energy into it than you can probably imagine.

So... you may be able to imagine why I find it hard to choke down when someone wants to divide Painter and its users into the elite and peasant classes.

Frankly, it's just darned annoying!

Please forgive me if I've misread your meaning, a distinct possibility.

.........

[Brucie Rosch]

Ah, I didn't intend any value judgment assigned to either (or any) user of Painter...

Professionals *DO* have different needs than amateurs. (I mean 'amateur' in a strictly non-elitist/judgemental sense.) I'm a professional with deadlines, with (more or less, depending) income to spend on beefing up my system and hardware and with a need for a fairly limited set of brushes and tools to get my assignments accomplished predictably. I need a few favorite brushes and papers and textures and then some headroom to experiment with new techniques as I wish. (BTW, I'd like to see my assigned name for my favorite brushes appear in my custom pallettes for quick ID.) I want good integration with my other apps. I'm speaking for myself, but I'd bet that other pros might be nodding their heads. Painter IX (and previous versions) has a long list of brush variants and other features that I have absolutely no use for... doesn't mean nobody does, and doesn't imply anything bad or good about me or anyone else for their choice of style, aesthetic or how they achieve it.

So, from my admittedly self-centered perspective, if it would help Corel to stabilize the app for pros, I'd be quite happy to let them remove some of the more (to me) extraneous bells and whistles and ship a super-stable, high-performance real world painting monster. I don't know how they would do it, but I'd like to have a stripped-down core app that is rock solid, that is geared toward large files (8.5 x 11, 350 ppi, 100 layers -- or bigger, even -- now that large format art printers are afforable). High res paper textures, more and more real world behaviors with each release.

I don't see anything wrong with having a couple targeted versions of Painter!

I don't mean to offend... I'm just looking for a professional toolkit and I'm not seeing it right at the moment.

(Yes, I've emptied out brushes and patterns and such, to clean up my own version... )

I have absolutely nothing against anyone who wants to create art and I certainly don't regard anyone as less or more deserving and I would never label anyone with a derogatory name. Calling myself a professional does not automatically assign everyone who doesn't earn their living with their art work into a non-deserving category. But it *DOES* place me in a category with special needs...

We're all struggling to create our art...

[Jinbrown]

Ah, I didn't intend any value judgment assigned to either (or any) user of Painter...

Professionals *DO* have different needs than amateurs. (I mean 'amateur' in a strictly non-elitist/judgemental sense.) I'm a professional with deadlines, with (more or less, depending) income to spend on beefing up my system and hardware and with a need for a fairly limited set of brushes and tools to get my assignments accomplished predictably.


I understand deadlines, believe me, after working for nearly three decades as a tech illustrator, graphic artist, and tech writer. Deadlines were in the marrow of my bones and though I don't have those deadliines anymore, I work as hard or harder now. That too is in the marrow of my bones.

That's why I said that I appreciate your concerns. Even people who have not worked in these fields no doubt also understand since life provides deadlines in such common places and lives as those of mothers who are able to stay at home with their kids (when they're not racing from one place to another to keep all the balls in the air.. chauffering, doctor and dentist appointments, shopping, cooking, cleaning, laundry, birthday parties, and endless lists of other things that have to be done, ). I was one of those, too, before going back to work and continued to have all those home and family responsibilities/deadlines after going back to work.

Again, we all want Painter to be rock solid, able to handle large files with a lot of Layers, be completely customizable, be fast, allow us to work with large brush sizes without lag, never corrupt RIFF and PSD files, never vanish off the screen without so much as a warning, allow us to retrieve our files if on a rare occasion something else like a lightning bolt causes Painter to crash or vanish, be more compatible with other programs (they'll never be the same because they're not owned by the same companies, even if it were possible to make them 100% compatible), .... on and on.

When I say "we all" I mean exactly that. I don't know a single Painter user from rank beginner to expert, hobbyist to professional, dumb to smart who doesn't want all of the above. I'm retired now and the only paid "work" I do is to teach Painter classes part time, but I too would very much like to be able to work efficiently, easily, and reliably with very large high resolution (PPI) images that will go to print.

8 x 11 inches is not a large print, after all, when you're considering a piece of fine art and it's frustrating to know I would have a hard time working as large as I'd like in order to get a high quality print.


I need a few favorite brushes and papers and textures and then some headroom to experiment with new techniques as I wish. (BTW, I'd like to see my assigned name for my favorite brushes appear in my custom pallettes for quick ID.)


Though it's not the ideal solution, if you hold your cursor very still for a few seconds over a brush category icon in a Custom Palette, the name of the brush variant selected when the brush category icon was moved into the Custom palette will be displayed. You'll need to have Tool Tips enabled first (Help > Show Tool Tips).

We can also create custom brush categories using any image we want for the brush category icon. If that's not enough, we can place a single brush variant in each brush category so there's no mistaking what's in that brush category and the icon can be made to indicate what that particular brush variant is.


I want good integration with my other apps. I'm speaking for myself, but I'd bet that other pros might be nodding their heads.


You betcha other pros are nodding their heads, along with everyone else! Understand this, please, professionals are only different from other Painter users in that some of their needs are different. They have work deadlines, employers or clients, and earn money from work they do using Painter needed to support themselves and their families. A non professional may have equally important needs for widely varying reasons to have Painter improved and working at top notch efficiency, reliability, and speed. It may even affect their health, financial situation, and the welfare of their families. People's needs change through their lifetimes and no matter what their situation is they can still be important needs.

Not only have I been using Painter for a decade, I've also been working with nearly every kind of Painter user for more than half that time. What I say is not something I dreamed up.


Painter IX (and previous versions) has a long list of brush variants and other features that I have absolutely no use for... doesn't mean nobody does, and doesn't imply anything bad or good about me or anyone else for their choice of style, aesthetic or how they achieve it.

So, from my admittedly self-centered perspective, if it would help Corel to stabilize the app for pros, I'd be quite happy to let them remove some of the more (to me) extraneous bells and whistles and ship a super-stable, high-performance real world painting monster. I don't know how they would do it, but I'd like to have a stripped-down core app that is rock solid, that is geared toward large files (8.5 x 11, 350 ppi, 100 layers -- or bigger, even -- now that large format art printers are afforable). High res paper textures, more and more real world behaviors with each release.

I don't see anything wrong with having a couple targeted versions of Painter!


It's fine to be self-centered as long as it doesn't boomerang and leave you with less than you had to begin with (mentioned that first since it will appeal to the self-centered syndrome) and as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else (which that characteristic always does in the end).

That's what I meant by saying your vision is a bit limited. If you get what you're asking for, Painter will not have the financial support to continue giving you what you want if it can even give it to you to begin with. It takes money for Corel to continue development of Painter. More customers usually means more money, right?

Another thing to consider is, if Corel has a more select group of users (PainterPros) and less income than they woud from a wider user base, the cost of both a first time purchase of Painter and upgrade prices would have to rise at least relative to the lower number of users.

Those users would balk at higher prices even more than they do now. Some would give up using Painter altogether for that reason and the income from Painter sales would go down even further.

I'm not a marketing or sales person and don't have a degree in business. This just makes sense to me.

It looks like a balancing act Corel and other software companies have to manage constantly, providing both improvements in stability/ efficiency and other things to attract customers while also balancing income and spending,

As users, we should ask for things we want and need. We should also be reasonable in our expectations.... and not let self-centeredness cloud our thinking.


I don't mean to offend... I'm just looking for a professional toolkit and I'm not seeing it right at the moment.

(Yes, I've emptied out brushes and patterns and such, to clean up my own version... )

I have absolutely nothing against anyone who wants to create art and I certainly don't regard anyone as less or more deserving and I would never label anyone with a derogatory name. Calling myself a professional does not automatically assign everyone who doesn't earn their living with their art work into a non-deserving category. But it *DOES* place me in a category with special needs...


A professional toolkit is one that can be supported by the company that owns it and it's one that should be good, and affordable, for a large enough customer base (wide enough variety of users) to make that continuing support possible.


We're all struggling to create our art...

Yes, we all are struggling to create our art and struggling to maintain our lives, which is another art form, including Corel, other software companies, and the human beings who do the work.

I would not want to be in their position and know from interacting with people at Corel for several years and working on the last two version Beta teams they are as interested on a personal and working level in Painter as any one of the best of us is.

In fact, Rick Champagne (Corel Painter Program Manager) and the development team love Painter, not only want to do their jobs well and make Painter a solid and successful program. If you ever doubt they work hard and care a lot, rest assured. They do.

[virgo1]

Hi Jinbrown, I would like to join in. I'm a new painter user, fiber artist and jeweler. I will be able to create designs that can be imported to the weaving and needlepoint softwares for tapestry and needlepoint charts. Also designing for Precious Metal Clay jewelry will be ever so enjoyable.

And thank you Jinny for your suggestions last month when I joined and was lost.

Eva aka virgo1

[Vince58]

Jin,

I think Painter is as good as what it worths. No program ( or person ) is perfect. I had been using both Photoshop and Painter since the days when both are version 1. Have done almost a hundred illustrations ( all are commercial jobs with deadlines ) with Painter ( all are in 8k resolution ) and never have once the program let me down. The recent color corruption issue is just some glitches and believe the Corel team can do something about. If you ask me if there are problems when using the programs ( both Painter and Photoshop ), sure there will be, it's just a matter of how work round it.

Just my 2 cents,

vince

[SpeccySteve]

And thank you Jinny for your suggestions last month when I joined and was lost.


Indeed, I was baffled when I first fired up the version of Painter you get with your tablet but thanks to Jinnys (and others) posts here and on Conceptart I've been able to at least get my head around the basics fairly painlessly.

I think I speak for most Painter noobs when I say thanks to all the pros and experts posting here, we will ask dumb questions now and again but your help in getting to grips with what is (to me) a complex application is much appreciated.

-Steve

[Brucie Rosch]

Hey, Jin, your posts are too long (Pot. Kettle. Black.) for me to break down and reply to each piece! :) Okay, I'm lazy!

I'd just like to be clear about one issue that you seem to have with how I'm presenting myself... when I write: "I'm a professional illustrator and this is what I need and want from Painter..." I'm not NOT, I swear, NOT dissing anyone else, mothers, textile artists, stencil artists, children's illustrators, beginners, experienced artists, students, retirees... what have you...

I'm speaking for myself and asking for what *I'd* like. Or what I just plain need (dealbreaker stuff). If Corel can add the robustness to Painter, beef up the professional features (size and resolution mostly) and keep adding to the real-world illusion of it's toolkit -- without busting it up into pieces -- fine with me. I'm happy to let them figure out how to keep Painter viable in the marketplace. So long as they meet MY needs, fine, whatever works.

I realize that everyone has their own (legitimate) idea of what the core essentials of Painter are. I can only speak for myself however, and hope that Rick checks in and gets a feel for what I need (and what other Painter users need too). We each have to speak up for our own needs and not worry overmuch that we're giving offense to someone who has different needs. Just present them! They are just as legit as mine!

I'd encourage everyone to sound off loud and clear about what they need Painter to do, to become. Squeaky wheels and all that.

So, here they are again (my personal needs and favorite tools -- yeah, I know I should say 'brush variants' but 'tools' feels like the right word to me):
-stability
-large files and high res paper textures -- 8.5 x 11 and 11 x 17 (I can't imagine being able to work larger than 11 x 17 even with RAM at 8GB (16GB maybe?)
-oils, chalk and charcoal, pencils, pens and caligraphic tools, smudging and blending are my most used tools
-better and better integration with flagship graphics apps
-I still want to be able to name my brush variants in my pallettes!
-the ability to support many layers on large files
-robust color management that works seamlessly with Photoshop

For me, not to put too fine a point on it, a Deadline is: 1) the time at which the sketches are due, and 2) the time at which the final is due. This is determined by a client who pays me for the work, and who decides whether to call me again for another assignment. If I miss the deadline, telling them Painter crashed ain't going to cut it.

("Dear - magazine/newspaper - art director, please understand, the dog ate my painting!" There's no point in making explanations... I messed up their very busy life and I won't see their business again. Period. Them's the breaks.)

The last several assignments I've had went like this: Tues late (6pm), AD calls me, Wed 10:30am sketch due, Wed late, sketch approved, Thurs 11am, final due. I actually used Painter for the most recent assignment from this publication (well-known and prestigious). I shudder to think what would've happened if I'd had a similar crash. I can't afford to screw up with this client -- who has called on me 4 or 5 times now. (Such repeat biz is gold in an illustrator's career.)

I've been using Painter off and on since '94 or so. Until my recent experiments for a new style/portfolio, mostly for sketches/roughs... I don't pretend to be an expert, but I do love the software. Now, I just want a little more from it...

[Brucie Rosch]

crash after crash after crash on saving today... until I deleted all my layer masks and smooth sailing since then...

sending this to Rick at Corel

[Jinbrown]

Brucie,

Thanks for letting us know about deleting your Layer Masks. Let's hope that keeps working for you.

I'm glad you're forwarding that info to Rick, too. The more information they have, the better.

Everything you listed in your previous post as items you need, are important, understandable, and things we'd all appreciate having.

Let's hope Corel can give them to us. I sincerely do hope they can.

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