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stooch
05-19-2005, 03:41 PM
Ok, i edited my original post because some users felt that I have no right to be asking for help since its my fault for jumping into the program with such short deadlines, so I want to make it clear that this thread is primarily intended to share the experiences of a new user to the program and what to expect after dropping 1k for this beta.

ok, onwards with original post:

----------------------

Have been looking at messiah to animate with lightwave, more specifically, have been looking at autorig as the main reason for buying messiah. i have a tight deadline need to animate ASAP and THERE IS NOT AUTORIG!!! WTF. Why is it on their main page and tutorials for it and then there is no hint of it in the program? This is illegal. totally false advertising and sueable.

im so pissed its not even funny.

worst of all, the rigging tutorials are pathetic in the docs and im expected to BUY an additional CD just so that i can use this program? Whats the point? Im not unfamiliar with character setup but the horrible documentation has totally killed the learning curve. huge thumbs down from me so far.

biliousfrog
05-19-2005, 03:56 PM
yep, I'm with you there, same thing happened to me. I think it was pulled with the last update so if you've just installed it & then updated maybe go back to the older version. There was an issue with the updated autorig so they pulled it, I have no idea why they didn't just go back to the old version. There's a newer version being worked on at present but I can't see a reason for stopping users from access to the old version.

It is false advertising & it's one of the reasons that I've felt let down by it especially after the fantastic pre sales support & info on this forum. It is still a great app especially for animation, I've just made a prat of myself in another thread for slagging it off without digging deep enough. I'd recommend playing with all the other great tools & working your way around it & hopefully we'll get an explaination soon. It's still quicker to rig in Messiah than many other apps, it's just a shame that that tool has temporarily gone.

stooch
05-19-2005, 04:23 PM
well i installed the patch because the OGL looked like crap with all the text corrupting and all. is there a way to use the original prepatch with the OGL fix?

Sil3
05-19-2005, 05:58 PM
Im not unfamiliar with character setup but the horrible documentation has totally killed the learning curve. huge thumbs down from me so far.

If u are familiar with character setup then getting to know Messiah rigging tools are not that hard IMO.

I do agree that the docs need "special" care for a long time now.

ThomasHelzle
05-19-2005, 06:07 PM
I can't help with your issues with pmG but I just tested it:
Autorig 1 from messiah 2.1a works as always under 2.2. Just put the Auto_Rig.mp plugin into the plugins folder of 2.2. That's the version from the video on pmGs Homepage.

I personally prefer riggin myself - which is easy and fast in messiah - over using AutoRig though.

Buying Joe Cosmans CDs isn't required but a very smart move - it even gives you some very cool rigs that you can reuse for your models (easy in messiah) - may be the next best thing to a working AutoRig ;)

Regards,

stooch
05-19-2005, 06:56 PM
If u are familiar with character setup then getting to know Messiah rigging tools are not that hard IMO.

I do agree that the docs need "special" care for a long time now.

oh im familiar with it allright. The thing is im not familiar with messiah yet. so i was hoping that autorig will mediate my ignorace somewhat. Now i have to put in some insane hours to use this thing. :( thats why im pissed.

i been eagerly waiting for this program counting down the days over here in the office and now that i got it, its a huge letdown.

DMack
05-19-2005, 09:08 PM
Unless your rig needs to be complex, I think you'll find the whole rigging process easier than you think. I moved over from LW to messiah:Animate for character animation and rapidly got going. Joe Cosman's CD's are very helpful, as are the people on this forum so jump in and ask for help when you need it. Regards to it being a letdown...I think with time you'll grow to really appreciate it...may not think so at the mo ;) but I think you will if you give it a good go - Much easier to rig than LW thanks to the seyup mode etc.

PauHana
05-19-2005, 09:47 PM
Have you tried what Thomas Helzle suggested? I understand your frustration, but everyone here is trying to help you with your problem. Do you have any specific questions about how to set stuff up like you do in whatever program you're used to? There aren't a whole lot of tutorials out there but here's a few: http://www.zoogono.com/tutorials.cfm

stooch
05-19-2005, 09:57 PM
im working in lightwave.

setting up a rig for fido (you know the 7 up character)

I need to get a full rig working with IK legs and FK/IK arms with knee/elbow control and be ready to animate by next week.

wish me luck. hah

SpikeWorx
05-19-2005, 11:55 PM
This is illegal. totally false advertising and sueable.

As a LW user, you should be acquainted with such advertising and non working features :D ;).
The Python Scripting Implementation had a major bug which caused a lot of instability.
In my mind itīs better to leave out AutorigII, which depends on Python, till it works as it should, than grappling with an unstable Messiah.

stooch
05-20-2005, 12:58 AM
well im coping with this as best as i can. however, a disclaimer on their site about the broken autorig would be nice. It would have cost them a sale, but it still would be nice.

pelos
05-20-2005, 01:51 AM
i dont know if you really need to buy those CD, i did some tutorial, for messiah,

try to look for them on the forum or in the zoogono.com
(i have 2 sources, one was a torrent file that was directed to my computer and some ppl did the HUGE favor to give me space on there server)

if you cant find them, send me a tell =)

RavenSong
05-20-2005, 03:11 AM
I'm glad I started reading through these posts -- and discovered the Joe Cosman cds, they look to be an exceptional value in every way and will certainly be a major help and education for me to use just starting out with Messiah.

As for "bugs" and changes in the app -- why give up on it? It's just part of the evolution, all programs must go through these processes. There's always a solution. A very important factor in using Messiah for me is that this group helps each other out and all are interested in seeing Messiah progress. And it is. I'm very impressed with what Messiah already can do and am happy to be a part of the revolution and where it is headed.
---Maya

PauHana
05-20-2005, 04:37 AM
im working in lightwave.

setting up a rig for fido (you know the 7 up character)

I need to get a full rig working with IK legs and FK/IK arms with knee/elbow control and be ready to animate by next week.

wish me luck. hah

Sorry, I'm not familiar with Fido. Is he an anthropomorphic bipedal type character?
Do you have a proxy object or better yet the actual mesh to rig? You could post screen grabs if you want and try asking specific questions for the rig. (ie: I'm trying to rig the rear legs like I do in Maya. I usually...blah blah blah). Then we may have some ideas we can throw at you. Just trying to help....

SpikeWorx
05-20-2005, 06:29 AM
Sorry, I'm not familiar with Fido. Is he an anthropomorphic bipedal type character?
http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/community/lightwave/partizan2/1.html ;)

PauHana
05-20-2005, 06:52 AM
Ahhh! My mistake...by the name, I thought he was a canine.

DMack
05-20-2005, 08:21 AM
I need to get a full rig working with IK legs and FK/IK arms with knee/elbow control and be ready to animate by next week.

wish me luck. hah

Whoooa! That's soon if you've no experience in messiah. If the budget allows, you may want to consider getting someone with a lot of experience to create a rig for you. I could name two immediately, maks (you should see his facial rig!) and Thomas Hezel (technical guru)...(Ok there will be lots out there)..Not saying they're interested or available...but you could try a quick 'anyone able to rig this character' type thread. Better to take less home than spoil a client relationship. ;)

AlexK
05-20-2005, 10:18 AM
well im coping with this as best as i can. however, a disclaimer on their site about the broken autorig would be nice. It would have cost them a sale, but it still would be nice.
Well as Thomas said AutoRig 1 isn't broken. You can still use it afaik. Just copy the AutoRig.mp in the plugins folder. If you don't have it anymore just say so and I can send it to you.

stooch
05-20-2005, 07:30 PM
thanks for all the help guys, im halfway done haha. Im a quick learner :) and i do love how the setup mode saves my rest pose, great time saver. Still wish i had the autorig, but this program is simple enough to learn i guess.

one question i have is the best way to handle the weight maps, any suggestions on fastest workflow?

PauHana
05-20-2005, 08:38 PM
There's no need for weight maps with a character like Fido (Messiah doesn't use them anyway). Try using hold bones. Open some of the sample character scenes that came with messiah and unhide all the bones. You'll quickly get an idea of where to put the bones.

stooch
05-20-2005, 08:49 PM
hmm. well i ended up going with weight effectors. they seem to do the trick, is there anything wrong with using weight effectors? Are hold bones a better alternative?

stooch
05-20-2005, 09:58 PM
ok this program is pissing me off.

it seems that limited range has no effect AT ALL! man this is annoying.

does limited range do anything? seems that regardless of what range i give it, it will still affect adjacent bones ranges.

DMack
05-21-2005, 08:47 AM
In setup, make sure your bones are already sligtly bent (eg the knees are slightly forward and legs slightle bent as a result), to indicate the direction they should bend in. I think messiah does some clever background stuff (vets will be able to explain it better!) and IK solves based on this initial bend. I know coming from LW you're expecting to have to use limits the whole time but messiah does things different (MUCH better IMO). It just takes getting used to. ;)

ThomasHelzle
05-21-2005, 10:31 PM
stooch: Hey, you better cool down a bit.

It was your decision to switch to another software that you seem to know nothing about short before a project. That isn't something any professional will normally do or recommend if avoidable.
So since you know nothing about the software you will hit obstacles. That is normal. When I started with Lightwave coming from Cinema 4D years ago I got crazy ;)
But if you want help from other users, it will not help you if you constantly repeat how pissed you are, since most of it will be because you don't know the software and didn't allow the time to get into it.
If you would start with something like maya with only 4 days time, knowing nothing about it you would be as pissed as you are now. ;)
That is your own fault basically.

So - since the people on this forum aren't in any way liable to help you, a bit more positive attitude would be much more appropriate.

With that said:

Limited range works fine here. You may want to post your scene so people are able to look at what you've done and offer suggestions from that.

I personally think I never used weights for bones - just too much hassle and not needed normally. But there is nothing wrong with using them. ;)

Best regards,

bardakos
05-21-2005, 11:55 PM
i wouldnt try messiah for a project with a deadline without testing it first..

i mean I come from a 2D animation background and the whole thing of 3D is really tough
it always comes from a place u dont expect it ...

ALWAYS make good planning for the workflow...test again and again in a production
ALWAYS things will go wrong ..so you better be somewhat prepared ...

that's what i am doing now i test different charcters setups with messiah for three projects that are going to start.But if i had to do something like for the next week
i would use LW without second thought...


you must confront everything with a more ZEN attitude.
these things we use are computers the do what you tell them to do
u just have to know how to ask...

NO weightmaps for Fido Dido .... with such a geometry it would be really easy with just a few control bones ....*just as everyone else said*
(but still if u wanna control with weights use them i prefer curve weight tools )
(especially for controling the flow of a displacement with the awesome AON from Thomas Helzle)
Check the examples scenes and read the the pages of the manual that interest you.

What i find great is the ease and speed to create different rigs for different scenes ..
...
anyway i wish you luck with the project...

more positive energy is always a good start.

JB.

stooch
05-22-2005, 01:32 AM
hey, dont try to makeup excuses for the program. I am fully aware what to start and what not to start with my deadlines, my problem with this program is the fact that the features that were promised are not present. as far as being able to learn on the fly, judge your own skills against yourself. im almost done with my rig, if you cant learn as fast as i can, thats your own problem.

no amount of ability is going to get around missing features. so im still pissed off and rightfully so.

p.s. It took me one week to move over from lightwave to maya... It was smooth sailing because features that i expected were included with the program. Again, the only fault here, lies with PMG and their false advertising.

If you feel that i dont deserve your help because im upset with being lied to, that is your prerogative, please refrain from posting because you arent helping.

Another thing - the purpose of this post was not necessarily to get help, but to share my experiences with this program. Losing a few sales because of this post would be a good lesson about the consequences of false advertising.

I edited my original post to reflect the intentions of this thread. For all the ones that actually tried to help, im sincerely appreciative. Thank you very much.

AlexK
05-22-2005, 11:52 AM
no amount of ability is going to get around missing features. so im still pissed off and rightfully so.
Not really, as I made you the offer to send you the old and working AutoRig, which you didn't take obviously, so stop whining and start asking in a polite manner. That might acutally get you somewhere in this community.

If you feel that i dont deserve your help because im upset with being lied to, that is your prerogative, please refrain from posting because you arent helping.
Right, because you are obviously not looking for help, so I for my part won't bug you any longer and let you play with your new tool. Good luck! :applause:

stooch
05-22-2005, 03:55 PM
Not really, as I made you the offer to send you the old and working AutoRig, which you didn't take obviously, so stop whining and start asking in a polite manner. That might acutally get you somewhere in this community.
What is that supposed to mean? Where exactly am i supposed to get in this community? Is this some kind of popularity contest?

Right, because you are obviously not looking for help, so I for my part won't bug you any longer and let you play with your new tool. Good luck! :applause:
not in this thread, no. You didnt even have to make this post. Incase you didtn notice, there are other posters besides you who agree with me 100%. Sorry to offend your beloved program.

The topic title i made, doesnt scream out for help - does it?

as far as me not hacking the autorig feature, i was too far into setting it up myself, i figured if i just do it once, it will be a good way to get used to the program. Are there any ETAs on when the autorig feature will be put back into the program? if its too long, then i would be interested in getting the version 1 to play around with it.

Sil3
05-22-2005, 05:56 PM
p.s. It took me one week to move over from lightwave to maya... It was smooth sailing because features that i expected were included with the program. Again, the only fault here, lies with PMG and their false advertising.



Not excusing the Autorig missing...but... why dont u do everything in Maya then? Seems u are a more at ease with it and Maya has so many free autoriggers that i dont see why u needed a to start a job on a program that u didnīt know anything about it, doesnt make sense to me, but since u are a fast learner...

DMack
05-22-2005, 06:14 PM
This is the first time I have witnessed this 'approach' on the pmg forum. :hmm:

Stooch, the people on this forum have been extremely helpful to me and others, including yourself, - especially Thomas who is a particularly helpful and kind individual. So comments like '......please refrain from posting because you arent helping. ' to Thomas are NOT likely to lead to a good 'relationship' with others on the forum. No, it's not a 'popularity contest' but being civil IS still important, and showing respect for others IS still important.

lmilton
05-22-2005, 07:58 PM
Hello stooch,

I read through this entire thread twice before responding. I want to be sure that you understand that we (pmG), along with the other users, are concerned with your plight.

First let me say that you are right to be upset about the missing AutoRig. We pulled it because it caused too many problems that affected the overall program (even when AR wasn't in use). This was only a temporary measure, and we fully intend to replace it with something that's not only more stable, but a *good deal* more functional.

There is something that you may need to be clear on with the current AutoRig, though. It is only intended for beginners, not a replacement for pro rigging. It is highly unlikely that it would have addressed your needs as a professional animator/TD. So, even if AutoRig were available, you would have likely encountered the same level of frustration. While we do claim responsibility for the missing AutoRig, it is highly unlikely that we could have realistically done anything to help you avoid your frustration... given your allotted timeframe to work messiah into your pipeline.

Further, it's not very realistic to compare your timeframe of going from LW->Maya to learning messiah. You can't quantify programs with such disparate workflows & methodologies in such a way. It is better to give any program a more realistically allotted amount of time to become acquainted. We and the users are here to help if you run into problems, just feel free to post detailed info about your problems.

I would like to say something about the users on this group, and messiah users, in general. Our users are *far* from elitist; there is a reason our community is so highly vaunted. Like with virtually all software, our users run the full spectrum from new 3D hobbyist all the way up to the "super-pro". You'll find a good sampling of them here, and they all are willing to provide assistance. They do this not because they are "messiah zealots" or elitists, but because they understand the power of the program and like being part of the community (i.e. they just like to help others).

Typically, when a user posts a frustrated message, everyone understands the frustration and tries to help. This is the first time on the messiah CGTalk forum where messiah users have felt it necessary to respond negatively to a frustrated user. They've only felt it necessary to respond in any negative fashion because you hadn't provided any direct response to the help they've given. They don't mind that you need to express more frustration, but they do mind that you appear not to be interested in taking advantage of the provided professional assistance & experience. If you've tried the suggestions, please provide more info. Vent if you need to, but please present some example scenes, screenshots, and/or descriptive text so we all can provide assistance.

Keep in mind that virtually all of our users have Maya, LW, max, C4D, etc, etc. They don't have any allegiance to any one app. When prospective messiah users ask for feedback vs. other software, messiah users are quick to provide extremely fair and balanced opinions along with accurate information. You'd be hard pressed to find a single zealot/elitist. They are very realistic about messiah's strengths and its weaknesses (this is a relative rarity in 3D software). They are comfortable sharing with us the negative and the positive, and we welcome this honest communication. In fact, we've helped foster it. It is our example of responding, sharing, and caring over the years that have helped to make the messiah community what it is. It is *extremely* rare to find any bickering in any messiah forum/mailing list because our users understand the importance of working together and showing each other respect. They understand that only constructive criticism and dialogue can move things forward (e.g. their projects & the messiah programs). All of this is something of which we're *very* proud and actively work to maintain.

To help you, if you're much too frustrated right now, I would suggest using a program with which you're more familiar just to get the job done on time. When you're done, please come back to the forum and we'll all help you come to grips with messiah. messiah & the community are definately worth it.

Once you learn more about messiah, you'll look back on all this with different eyes. And you, too, will be among the messiah community contributors.

Best of luck! And we hope to see you back here soon.

-lyle milton
-co president/developer
-pmG worldwide, llc
www.projectmessiah.com (http://www.projectmessiah.com/)

Julez4001
05-22-2005, 08:04 PM
Yep, the attitude here is little off.

1. Messiah and its docs is more than enough resources in itself to rig a biped character without Joe's CD, tutorials online or people tips/suggestions.

If you need to get a character rigged with just messiah bones and Ik, you got the fastest set of tools to do so outside of Maya, Max, XSI and LW.

Now the autorig problem is just that and the website needs to reflect that. But even so, it ain't a "solve all problems" solution. Its faster but won't be a miracle saver, no app is.
I would never moved on a commission project without be more versed in the app. No app even Hash Animator will save you from hiccups along the way, especially on a deadline.

bardakos
05-22-2005, 08:15 PM
Actually there is a workflow that most of the times is free of such problems that
software,hardware,luck and lack of concrete computer and software litteracy leads to .

No it is not Maya or LW or Animation Master ..or 3D construction KIT (for the ZX Spectrum)

it is just old school 2d animation :) paper pencil hell even cel coloring with acrylics!!!

and if u wanna get a bit more "rendering" old skool claymation ...

it is a bit more time consuming though :)...

end;

stooch
05-22-2005, 08:41 PM
Not excusing the Autorig missing...but... why dont u do everything in Maya then? Seems u are a more at ease with it and Maya has so many free autoriggers that i dont see why u needed a to start a job on a program that u didnīt know anything about it, doesnt make sense to me, but since u are a fast learner...

maya 6k

lightwave + messiah < 3k.

Lets not even get started on the usability of maya as a broadcast quality renderer out of the box...

Dont question my intentions. My problem is with promised features that do not come with the program my company paid for. Im not trying to start anything with forum members...

p.s. I read the response from PMG im appreciative of the time you took to write your message. I did not ignore any helpful suggestions, in fact some came in handy.

It all comes down to ddid i have a right to be pissed. and i feel i do.

if anyone here thinks less of me because of it. so be it.

in closing. Through my experience with messiah, i could see how it is a powerful tool that i may end up enjoying using. I have rigged my character and its working fine, the program is stable and only crashed 3 times in a period of 72 hours, thats not bad. Did it frustrate me less then other programs with inferior, "elitist" communities? No. Actually this program takes the cake.

although i must admit its powerful and can be a pleasure to work with. Obviously im not going to give up on it, now that it has been purchased.

anyways, im not interested in continuing this thread any further, unless of course other members here have any more input. The mere existence of this thread, serves my original intentions and ill leave it at that.

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