CGTalk - Great Character Modeler

DigitalDeuce

10-11-2002, 12:02 AM

What you have to look at when you are pricing models -- is this.

How much do you charge per hour, and how many hours would it take you to do that model.

I thought the same thing with Viewpoint pricing. But here's the thing. If you have a client, and time is of the essence -- what would you do -- you might hire another person to help out. What if it was just for modeling?

At $50 an hour, $125 is only 2.5 hours work. If you have head modeling down to a science, then you could get alot done in 2.5 hours. But look at it this way, maybe your not up to that speed. Maybe it would take you 5 hours. Then maybe the 2.5 hour head would get you closer faster.

It all comes down to needs. Sure, I could model all the objects that I might require for a project. But if the time was short, and the budget could stand it -- I'd look at purchasing models. If not for the final use, certainly as a jumping off point.

Think about those people who just animate, and who can't model. There's the market. We who can model, aren't really the target market.

My thoughts on the subject.

policarpo

10-11-2002, 12:03 AM

too expensive?

what the hell are we? a bunch of 3d socialists!

yeesh.

if you break it down to an hourly rate these things are right inline with about a $50 per hour wage...assuming they take about 2 to 3 hours to complete.

i know i've spent 60 hours on things that go out the door here at the office for tens of thousands of dollars...and i don't see any of that cash.

maybe i need to start thinking like a content creator instead of a worker bee.

:applause:

thanks for spawning a seed in my brain!!!!

proton

10-11-2002, 12:07 AM

Keep in mind that he has done this successfully and his clients are very happy...he started with just a few models and now has a whole collection that keeps getting bigger...

I say more power to him....:thumbsup:

Lizard Head

10-11-2002, 12:21 AM

>>>>maybe i need to start thinking like a content creator instead of a worker bee.<<<<

EXACTLEY!!!!!

Once when I started freelancing in screenprint art way back in the 80's. I was charging just enough to get by, trying to out do the other guy on price... till one day. a friend said to me that I would do better and keep more clients if I raised my prices higher than anyone else and sold VALUE instead of art.... damn if she wasnt right!!!!.... the clients I attracted stayed with me because of the investment they had made,, and with the re-occuring client base plus higher earned income I was working less, and making more.....

Lesson learned? Value is perception.

AND

There is always someone out there that will pay for perceived value.

Tottebias

10-11-2002, 12:33 AM

I do agree that you have to charge a whole lot of money for something you are selling to your client. But that is just ONE client paying to the project. When you're selling your stuff to the public I think $135 is a wee bit expensive. But then maybe there´s not a lot of people buying the stuff. Either way, what I feel is expensive might be cheap to an american due to the differences in currency.

DigitalDeuce

10-11-2002, 12:37 AM

When you're selling your stuff to the public I think $135 is a wee bit expensive.

It's not that at all --

You think $135 is a wee bit expensive because you aren't the target market. You're not the public.

That's all. Just a difference in perception.

proton

10-11-2002, 01:32 AM

agreed......The target market for these models are not going to be found here ...IMHO.....I know people that have used these models and thought they were a steal fo rthe price.....

I'd liek to see what you guys would charge if it was you r modeling time....don't give away any personal info...just your thoughts...this coudl turn into a great thread....so let us have it...

anieves

10-11-2002, 02:13 AM

There are just too many variables to have a set hourly rate, but you can have a starting rate to work from. If you are a freelancer like myself you have to budget your expenses... power, water, mortgage, computer upgrades, gas, car payment etc. then you can come up with an hourly rate to start with.

Depending on your cost of living you will end up with a figure that you can then adjust by the project.

Other things to consider is what's called in the industry "total buy-out" which proton already talked about, this is when the client has the rights to your model... they bought it out from you and therefore nobody else can use it. You can not make a new character from the now that was bought out... you can get in legal trouble by doing so, you will have to start from scratch.

Also if the work is to be publish in a magazine or book for example, you have to see what the distribution is and charge acordingly. Lets see a scenario:

I get contacted by a large ad agency and they want me to make a 3d model of a character pose it according to an Illustrator comp, render it and then deliver it as a hi res eps file. I am told that will be in "Rollingstone" I say cool! this model will cost you an estimaded amount of $550. We both agree. Later I find out that Rollingstone is a 700k + distribution publication and that the illustrator was paid 7K for the half page illustration he put toghether using the render of my model. BUMER!

What I am trying to say with this example is that you have to estimate according to the final delivery of the piece so you are fairly compensated for your work.

I suggest you get a copy of "Graphic Artist Guild Handbook of pricing and ethical standards" what a long name!

The animation section in the edition I have (old 9th edition) is not so solid as the rest of the book, it might have changed since then.

I'll give you an example from this old edition:
Modeler weekly salary entry level: $1,041 maximum reported: $1950

Now, have in mind that this is avarage reported... will change accoding to your geographic area. Read this book and you will change how you quote jobs forever.

yon dabuda

10-11-2002, 02:50 AM

heh, those characters are great.

time is money in business, $100 for a simple model is not a lot, $1000+ for a decent character is not a lot. dont sell yourself cheap. thats how so many good artists starve. especially if you have the ability to give them what they want, they need you as much as you need them.

too often we see great artist selling their sweat for minimum wage, and even more so see "so-so" artists (more businessmen) making rich off of minimum work.

is that because most good artists know nothing about business? probably.

hey i used to work for an "artist" in NYC that did nothing except sit around, smoke pot, and have parties every weekend. his work consisted of going out and taking photographs, with his large format camera, once a week and telling me to scan and add photoshop filters to them. but this guy would make A LOT of money(try working 2 days a week and pulling 200k a year), why? because he knew who to sell his crap to, lawyers, doctors, polititions.
point being, there is a lot of money out there.

intvSlams

10-11-2002, 04:00 AM

I think the prices are great, I work at an ad agency and there are super tight deadlines! A client will want (and get) something out of you in 24-48 hours EVEN if your plate is full. The agency charges $100/hr for my work, and there's no way I could model those characters in 1.5-2 hours. I bookmarked the site - those cheap models could be a godsend if I get into a bind. And I think it's safe to say the client would pay WAY more then $135 for the model... I will say most seem to be a little high in poly count, but they're still clean professional models for very little money.

takkun

10-11-2002, 04:14 AM

I still disagree. Most of your arguments refer to making a model for one client, in that case I think that $125 is a fair price for a head. But if your not giving all rights to one person and instead offering the same model to the public then you have to take into account that -

1. There is competition

2. You have the ability to sell the same model to multiple customers, therefore increased profitability.

--------------------------------------------------

Real World Test #1

Let's compare its-ming.com to the very popular turbosquid.com-

Here is a fully-textured sub-d character that you can purchase from turbosquid for $202

http://www.turbosquid.com/HTMLClient/FullPreview/FullPreview.cfm/ID/174030/Action/FullPreview

Now here is a polygonal character with no textures from its-ming for $225

http://its-ming.com/scooterguy.html

--------------------------------------------------

Real World Test #2

Here is a collection of highly-detailed sea animals selling at turbosquid for $164

http://www.turbosquid.com/HTMLClient/FullPreview/FullPreview.cfm/Action/FullPreview/ID/160368

Here is a cartoony shark at its-ming for $150

http://its-ming.com/2000/html2000/fish/shark10.html

--------------------------------------------------

Now you might make the case that there are very expensive models at turbosquid. That's true but it all comes down to whether the customer will buy the $200 model or the $1000 model, chances are that he will probably try to stay under-budget and get the $200 model. Ahh, the beauty of capitalism.

Frankly I think that its-ming.com models are extremely simple and way overpriced for that level-of-detail.

Lizard Head

10-11-2002, 05:52 AM

But that was the point I was trying to make earlier,, Sell yourself, not the art,, this ming modeler may have a great working relationship with his / her customers... thats what they are paying for,, not the models, if the client gets into a jam of some sort, this ming may be RIGHT there to correct it, and that is of value, could turbo squid deliver that? how long would it take turbo to track down that artist?? would they even do that for the customer???....

The way I see it ,, sell yourself, the client would rather pay for a relationship that he/she can bank on to be there and meet thier needs.......that shields the art you make from a confrontation on pricing when competition moves in on you.. you sell the value of a personal relationship....BUT that puts the responsibility on you as an artist to make sure you are as good as you say you are.

takkun

10-11-2002, 07:43 AM

this ming modeler may have a great working relationship with his / her customers... thats what they are paying for,, not the models, if the client gets into a jam of some sort, this ming may be RIGHT there to correct it, and that is of value, could turbo squid deliver that?

Yes, the artist has the choice to supply his/her email or other contact information with the model or in the description space. I'm sure that many of the artists on turbosquid are freelancers and would be glad to offer services if requested.

sell yourself, the client would rather pay for a relationship that he/she can bank on to be there and meet thier needs

Ming is not selling himself, he has a disclaimer on his site that says that he is not liable for any demands from the customer or the customers inability to use his products.

And this relationship you speak of, isn't this called employment? ;) There are lots of freelance artists out there hired to do just what you said. I'm talking about people who are offering products (i.e. models) and what they should charge for their products. If ming was just offering a service then I would think that his prices were great, but service isn't included in that $1000 bland body with no head.

yon dabuda

10-11-2002, 08:28 AM

ok, there are two sides to this dissagreement, but the stupid thing is we're not even disagreeing to the same argument.

as i see it, neither side is wrong because its just a matter of approach.

if you get ripped off, thats bad.
if you get paid well and credit, thats good.
we all agree to this, i hope.

you can take the path of selling for cheap to more people, or selling expensive to less.

either way, as long as you do it well, you can be successful.

Facial Deluxe

10-11-2002, 08:32 AM

Real World Test #2

Here is a collection of highly-detailed sea animals selling at turbosquid for $164

http://www.turbosquid.com/HTMLClien...eview/ID/160368

Here is a cartoony shark at its-ming for $150

http://its-ming.com/2000/html2000/fish/shark10.html

You pay for the style, ain'it the most important ?
I guess an E-boy cubic model would be more expensive with simpler geometry.

anieves

10-11-2002, 01:03 PM

I still don't see what's the problem here Felytendect.

If he can sell his work for whatever he wants, more power to him.

I don't want to have a client that will ask me why am I charging certain amount of dollars when they can find the stupid little shark for less somewhere on the internet. I would say, fine, If you think that meets what you looking for...

Why would an ad agency pay me to do an editorial illustration when they can just go to compusa and buy a library of clip art?

easy, is not what they are looking for!
Quality, purpose and many other considerations have to be looked at before making a decision of wheather or not to get the 200 or the 1000 model you mentioned before.

Seems to me that you really need to read the book I suggested.

Steve Warner

10-11-2002, 04:57 PM

From my position, how expensive a model is will largely be determined by the market you're in. Let me explain.

I grew up in a very small town on the border of Arizona, California, and Mexico. In that market, clients have no idea what creative services cost. This is largely due to the fact that media representatives give production costs away to gain the media dollars.

I now live in a larger city in Arizona. While the clients are still uneducated, they do realize that the work you get done at the tv station and the work you get done at an ad agency are worlds apart in terms of quality and price.

Before taking my current job, I spent 10 years as a freelance Designer/Producer and Art Director. I worked all over the state with various ad agencies. Invariably, what was expensive in one market was a steal in another.

I'm not going to comment on the quality or price structure of Mr. Ming's models. If he's selling them and making money, more power to him. It only makes me more appreciative of people like Proton who are giving away more detailed models for free.

As a side note to anieves, I got a copy of the Graphic Artists Guild Handbook when I first started in the business. I tried charging what they recommended for corporate design (logo, stationary kit, packaging, etc) and nearly got laughed out of every project I bid on. The handbook is a great resource for ethical guidelines, but I find its price structure to be completely out of touch with smaller to mid-sized markets.

Finally, I have to agree thoroughly with Lizard Head. I read an article about 5-6 years ago that said there are different types of clients out there. You need to determine which type you're going to sell to, as you can't please them all. After reading that, I opted to sell to the people who wanted quality. An associate of mine went for those who wanted great value. Five years later, I'm making an average of $35,000 per corporate video. He's still making an average of $2,000. There's always someone who will work for less. As you grow in your artistic abilities, you should strive for quality and sell yourself as an artist. Artistic interpretation is priceless. Button pushing goes for about $8.75 per hour.

Steve

Wesball

10-11-2002, 07:21 PM

JEEZ!!

I had no idea you could charge that much for models!!!

Maybe I should reconisder this 3D thing as just being my hobby.

anyone want to pay me? tee hee hee :D

www.mindscheme.netfirms.com/Images/bear1.jpg
www.mindscheme.netfirms.com/Images/bear2.jpg

Lizard Head

10-11-2002, 07:24 PM

Felytendect,,, Im not arguing with ya man!!!! maybe in my text my meaning got skewed, My point was not which is better, ming or squid,, I was using them as examples to show a difference in approach, Squid being a clearinghouse of models, and ming being a smaller , more personalized studio of custom design.....

but obviously you checked into the site enough to see a disclaimer, so I guess Ming is not a good example in this case, but the approach I was trying to emphasize is still valid.

proton

10-11-2002, 07:41 PM

this is a great thread...I think everyone can learn from this discussion...keep it going!

takkun

10-11-2002, 10:25 PM

Okay, I see your point. If this guy Ming is making serious bank then I shouldn't rain on his parade. And since he lives in Singapore, those American Greenbacks that he charges are probably going a lot farther than here in the states.

Just curious, how many of you sell your models on the web? If you can charge as much as Ming does and get away with it then I don't know why more people aren't doing it. It sounds like a great way to make a living!

Hey Proton, you should stop giving away those free models. You could make some serious bling-bling!

jfornasar

10-12-2002, 04:29 AM

If you are a hobbyist and still living with the parents, it might be cool to put a few things up on TurboSquid and make some bucks... you might even do pretty good, and maybe get another seat of LW or a used car.

However, the minute you are in business, you have to have the right product with the right price - at the right time and in the right place.

What is the right stuff? Knowing all of that is what makes one succeed in business.

No sale, no rent money, no studio. Landlords do not as a rule
major in art appreciation.

If you are a hobbyist that hopes to freelance, or getting ready to go out and start a business..

READ STEVE WARNERS POST. ESPECIALLY THE LAST PARAGRAPH.

NOW READ IT AGAIN.

sorry for shouting. The landscape is littered with people getting their first video camera and deciding to go into the "Wedding Video" business. They undercut the established guy ('cause they are living with mom and pop and don't pay rent) and start getting a few gigs. However, the word is out that they do it "cheap" (and the word does get around) and they can never graduate to the next level - the people that got the original cheap jobs always want that price, and the "moneyed people" and companies in the area will go with the "professional company".

From what I've read, it seems that most of the original 3D effects houses in tinseltown were "underbid" and put out of business by new upstarts. However, there is no loyalty among bargain hunters, and the upstart is crushed by the next cheaper company.

Take a serious, critical look at your work, look at the work avail
able on the web, and set your prices. If all works out, great.

carnera

10-12-2002, 12:51 PM

well...heres one link to a 3d model cd collection....
for only 79 EU = ca. 79 $....

http://www.instant-monsters.com

...i hope its not already off-topic... ;)

bye andras
http://www.carnera3d.de

takkun

10-13-2002, 12:33 AM

From what I've read, it seems that most of the original 3D effects houses in tinseltown were "underbid" and put out of business by new upstarts. However, there is no loyalty among bargain hunters, and the upstart is crushed by the next cheaper company.

I'm sorry, are you saying that you wish that only ILM and other original 3d effects companies do all the effects in Hollywood and that small Lightwave houses like Eden-FX and Computer Cafe have done a dis-service to the industry? Or are you saying that small upstarts should charge as much as the established companies and get laughed at all the way to the unemployment line?

However, the word is out that they do it "cheap" (and the word does get around) and they can never graduate to the next level

This is not true. I know for a fact that many upstart companies sell their services inexpensively at first and when the time is right they raise their prices to a more average industry rate. They send out letters to all their clients and explain that the 50% increase is nessecary to offering better services and many of their loyal customers understand and stick around. And now this company has a great body of work to show to new prospective clients.

I'm sure that the now successful Computer Cafe is not charging the same rates that they did when they were just a small upstart in Hollywood.

And although I have no interest in making Wedding Videos, what does that have to do with this thread? This thread started out asking the question if Ming was charging too much for his models. Personally, I want to know more about people who sell their models as their main income like Ming.

I'm interested in people who sell a product, NOT A SERVICE!

If you can sell a low detail body with no head and no clothes for $1000 and make a living from it then why aren't more people doing this? Why are there not more its-ming.com type websites on the internet?

LNT

10-13-2002, 02:00 AM

I'd say it all depends on a few factors - namely

1.what kind of model you're selling
2.for what purpose/under what terms you're selling the stuff

I'd say selling a 3d replica of a car,building or any other object for somebody's visualisation project should go a lot cheaper than selling a product of your own imagination for use in tv commercials/films,despite the fact that they may take same time to model

so I'd sell a 3d replica for a very low price to a struggling architect
but if I got a modeling gig for a holywood movie then my wallet would swell for sure cos of this intellectual property issue

I also agree that its-ming models are way too overpriced but then again the guy may have a good reputation (I never heard of him though) and a few hundred dollars more hardly make any difference to a TV commercial budget

Fritz3D

10-14-2002, 01:37 AM

As one of the hoping to get into pro 3d I'd like to ask if you have any idea if that turbosquid site really does the job, I mean has anyone really done any profit from his work there?

DigitalDeuce

10-14-2002, 01:39 AM

A friend of mine makes about $50 a month - he doesn't have many models on there -- he's tried to get me to do it.

He swears by it -- and anyone who has lots of models already made, and capable of doing so -- I say go for it.

Fritz3D

10-14-2002, 01:48 AM

What kind of models has he sold most?

jfornasar

10-14-2002, 04:20 AM

Fely,

***I'm sorry, are you saying that you wish that only ILM and other original 3d effects companies do all the effects in Hollywood and that small Lightwave houses like Eden-FX and Computer Cafe have done a dis-service to the industry? ***

No, absolutely not... in any business, if you can't get yourself known, you would have to break into it with a lower price, and outstanding work. Fresh blood and ideas moves everything forward.

***And although I have no interest in making Wedding Videos, what does that have to do with this thread?***

Maybe that was a bad analogy, but wedding videos -> doing film is similar to model making -> becoming the next ILM (at least in my head).

Just trying to say that if you believe yourself to be good, don't price yourself too low to stay in business. I've seen it happen several times (in commercial graphics and video). Someone doing some "side work" while full timing the day job. Getting work, starts own business. Now has the monthly nut to crack (rent, insurance, electric bill, etc) and his customer list (the bargain hunters) won't budge with the price.

Lizard Head

10-14-2002, 04:26 AM

Much better Avatar Deuce!!!!! alot better than that "cousin IT" thing you had going on

DigitalDeuce

10-14-2002, 04:29 AM

I'm gettin the hang of this.

Thanks!

DigitalDeuce

10-14-2002, 04:41 AM

Originally posted by Fritz3D
What kind of models has he sold most?

They seem random to me -- Sunglasses, a pen. Stuff like that.

Just about anything.

This is him:

http://www.turbosquid.com/HTMLClient/Search/Index.cfm/FuseAction/ProcessSmartSearch/istIncAuthor/ProjectTechKnow/blAuthorExact/y

Chewey

10-14-2002, 04:47 AM

That new avatar reminds me of the country singer Travis Tritt at a masquerade party.

Almost a bit super hero-esque.

DigitalDeuce

10-14-2002, 04:51 AM

You do know "Judge Dredd" -- right?

I hope you're not saying that I look like Travis Tritt.

Chewey

10-14-2002, 05:07 AM

yeah, but uh... stalone doesn't have the beard thang and travis does.

ok, maybe more like zz top

DigitalDeuce

10-14-2002, 05:32 AM

LOL !!

I'll have to tell Billy that one.

Chewey

10-14-2002, 01:17 PM

Let him know I have a few vintage tube amps with major mojo that he needs to purchase.

;>

DavidKwok

10-15-2002, 05:52 AM

IMHO.... Its a question of demand and supply. Ming has been doing this fulltime for years . I am sure he has many clients. Else he wouldn't be able to survive. I think it is a question of contacts, customer services and business relationship. If there are people willing to pay than there is no issue about charging at that rates. Since this is his sole source of bread and butter.

Steve Warner

10-18-2002, 01:48 AM

For anyone who's interested, here's the link to the site on marketing I referenced earlier:

http://www.wwug.com/site/articles/Lindeboom_ron/grinders.html

Steve

proton

10-18-2002, 01:56 AM

Thanx for the link...everyone needs to bookmark that one

cresshead

02-04-2005, 12:01 AM

just like to add that a client of mine in canada in 2001 used it's ming for some work on some t.v advertising over there...i rigged up the it's ming characters in 3ds max 4 for him as a freelancer way back then...was interesting to rig up someone elses characters and yeah they are hi poly..no sub d/metanurbs or meshsmooth...though they did rig okay they were slow to animates in the viewport...

his models do rock though...they have a nice acceptable look to them that leand themslves very well for advertising products...

here's a link to the work i did back then [my early character animation days so be kind!]

http://www.formedia.ca/gallery/idmaison/index.html

rigged and animated in max 4 character studio 3

steve g

glassefx

02-04-2005, 03:22 PM

This is slightly off topic but this thread got me thinking about something... I wonder how long it will be before someone hooks-up the output of some artifical intelligence geard to think in "spatial rhythms" and/or "fractal" to a 3d engine? It probably look like some huge 3d spyrograph on acid or something...

As far as this guys models... It kind of surprises me that they are so high for "over-seas" work... The scale of economy is WAY different over there... This guy probably has servants... LOL!

m_luscombe

02-04-2005, 07:36 PM

Think of it this way: a mechanic is going to scoff at the prices he gets charged for an oil change. I mean, hell, he can do it himself in 10 minutes, why pay someone else $40?

We're the content creators, not the suits, of course the prices look crazy to us. We wouldn't pay them.

JJ54

02-05-2005, 01:07 AM

glassefx:

I think the Science Channel had a show on this sort of thing this week. It dealt with life in 2025 but talked with current innovators - artists, techies, as well as musicians. They repeat shows a lot. So you might still be able to catch it.

Jim

BlueCougar

02-05-2005, 05:01 PM

Just an update to Ron Lindeboom's great article on marketing for those who are interested in reading it...

Clients or Grinders: The Choice is Yours (http://www.creativecow.net/articles/lindeboom_ron/clients_or_grinders/index.html)

Perception is everything...including your own...

Ramon

02-05-2005, 06:25 PM

too expensive?

what the hell are we? a bunch of 3d socialists!

yeesh.

if you break it down to an hourly rate these things are right inline with about a $50 per hour wage...assuming they take about 2 to 3 hours to complete.

You tell'em Policarpo!
3d socialists! HAHA! :scream: That's funny!
And to that question I say heck no!!
FREEDOM BABY! I certainly agree. $50 x (somewhere in the range of 60 hr) = $3,000. $50x16(two days)= $800. So his prices are in line. I wouldn't buy it, I would model them but, like Proton said, those who don't model or are in need of a model fast (time constaints) are the target market (i would assume). Though I must say, I would begin to wonder if DAZ / Poser has cornered that market.
I turned down a job recently because the guy was looking for REALISTIC human characters (clothing modeled, phenomes, UVs, textured and rigged for less than $1,000!!!)
He must certainly be out of sync (to say the very least).

JoshD

02-09-2005, 08:45 PM

Not sure how many here are familiar with DAZ, but we create models for the Poser market. Before you judge too harshly ;), the founders of DAZ used to be at Viewpoint. Our lead modeler is an incredible character modeler from Viewpoint. Models we sell at DAZ are 100 times more versatile, they are higher quality than pretty similar models that were sold at Viewpoint.

The irony is, the same guy is making them for us as did for Viewpoint, yet we give the base away for free for several (see links below), or sell the fully versatile models for well under $100. These same models could have sold for a much higher price while at Viewpoint. And people pay that, they are willing to pay that.

There are so many variables in deciding price. I won't go into a lot of it (especially since I have nothing to do with that part of DAZ. This is all my opinion being in a market that prices low), but you would have to think of your target market, whether you want to sell 10 at $1,000 or 50 at $20. Do you want to be a Walmart or some fancy place that charges more for pretty much the same thing? There are times where either approach is appropriate, it's up to you to decide which is right for you.

Anyway, for those of you who realize you should start charging more, I bet you will succeed! For those that want to charge less, you will just have to sell more of them to make it!

http://www.daz3d.com/shop.php?op=itemdetails&item=1098
http://www.daz3d.com/shop.php?op=itemdetails&item=1558
http://www.daz3d.com/shop.php?op=itemdetails&item=2866

(please don't think this is a marketing ploy, I'm only including the links to show you the content)