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View Full Version : Blu-ray wins! . . . Sorta


Geta-Ve
05-10-2005, 10:00 AM
http://ps3.ign.com/articles/611/611379p1.html

Well looks like the hd-dvd format is being dropped. hurray! Seriously though I think ultimately this is probably the best direction to take :)

And for those that don't like using their mouse

May 9, 2005 - Following recent announcements of a move towards compromise in the heated battle to become the next generation home video standard, the Tuesday morning Nihon Keizai Shimbun contains a first report on the shape that such a compromise will take. According to the paper, Sony and Toshiba have entered into final preparations for a format which combines disk technology from Sony with software technology from Toshiba. The two companies plan to offer an unified format to members of their respective high definition video forums as early as next week.

Toshiba's decision to give way on the disk format was apparently made after examining cost issues related to the Sony technology. The merged format will make use of Sony's 0.1 millimeter Blu-ray disk technology with Toshiba's software in place for reading and writing from the disk and handling copyright protection. Toshiba's 0.6 millimeter HD-DVD disk technology will be dropped. The resulting technology will be offered as a new format. It's unclear at this point if the new format will adopt the Blu-ray or the HD-DVD name, or if something completely new will be used. Sony announced late last year that the next generation PlayStation would make use of the Blu-ray format. The Nihon Keizai article reveals that, as part of the compromise, Blu-ray supporters Sony and Matsushita were demanding the highest possible storage space for future IT and game applications. This would suggest that, even though Blu-ray as it was known is gone, the new merged standard will end up serving as the format for PS3.

Expect further announcements later this week or at E3.

tozz
05-10-2005, 11:40 AM
finally... only good can come of this :) (I hope)

halo
05-10-2005, 11:42 AM
non news...speculation now debunked

Claims that moves to unify the two key competing HD video disc formats are progressing to a successful conclusion are "unfounded and erroneous", Toshiba said today.



"We are actively participating in talks towards format unification," it said in statement released this morning.

"At this point, however, nothing has been decided, and absolutely no decision has been made for unification on any basis," it added ominously. "The indication that a unification agreement on the basis of a 0.1mm disc system is imminent is unfounded and erroneous. Given this, Toshiba does not intend to make any proposal on unification to the members of the HD DVD Promotion Group."


As if to highlight the gulf between the BD and HD DVD, Toshiba also intends to present "a new higher capacity HD DVD-ROM disc" this week at Media-Tech Expo 2005 in Las Vegas.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/05/10/toshiba_slams_hd_claims/

tozz
05-10-2005, 11:48 AM
oh the shortlived joy... :sad:

arvid
05-10-2005, 12:05 PM
sigh.. why don't they just drop their crappy HD-DVD and help develop the superior Blu-Ray. Fools.

Peddy
05-10-2005, 12:17 PM
"It's unclear at this point if the new format will adopt the Blu-ray or the HD-DVD name, or if something completely new will be used"

why dont they just call it...wait for it.....DVD!
wow

Geta-Ve
05-10-2005, 12:25 PM
well thats a downer... :(

*sigh* guess it really was too big of a hope

halo
05-10-2005, 06:10 PM
yeh, its a shame...think its a definate case of suck it and see on this one.

Thalaxis
05-10-2005, 08:42 PM
"It's unclear at this point if the new format will adopt the Blu-ray or the HD-DVD name, or if something completely new will be used"

why dont they just call it...wait for it.....DVD!
wow

If they engage in their format war, it will BE DVD. Remember SACD and DVD-Audio, shot first in the
foot and later in the back by their own developers? Sony went to great lengths to ensure the failure of
SACD... which is a shame, because it's a beautiful-sounding format.

Dragon_Lee
05-10-2005, 08:56 PM
"It's unclear at this point if the new format will adopt the Blu-ray or the HD-DVD name, or if something completely new will be used"

why dont they just call it...wait for it.....DVD!
wow

DVD-2 (or super/subscripted 2) sounds like a logical choice...

Beamtracer
05-10-2005, 09:23 PM
sigh.. why don't they just drop their crappy HD-DVD and help develop the superior Blu-Ray. Fools.

The demise of HD-DVD would result in the following:

More expensive movie rentals
More expensive blank disks
More expensive players


Sure, Blu-Ray has more capacity, but you'll have to pay dearly for it.

Thalaxis
05-10-2005, 09:29 PM
The demise of HD-DVD would result in the following:

More expensive movie rentals
More expensive blank disks
More expensive players


Sure, Blu-Ray has more capacity, but you'll have to pay dearly for it.

The demise of one or the other has nothing to do with how much it will cost, that's dependent on how many
competitors decide to adopt the one that survives. In the end, it doesn't matter which one gets stuffed under
the rug as long as one or the other but not both make it to market as a standard.

Beamtracer
05-10-2005, 10:44 PM
In this case, cost does have a lot to do with the format.

The HD-DVD format can allow companies that press disks to use a lot of the same equipment they have already, whereas Blu-Ray would mean they have to adopt totally new equipment.

There's not that much difference in the capacity of the disks anyway. Blu-Ray achieves 50 gigs per disk by using a thinner track pitch.

HD-DVD achieves 45 gigs per disk (which is almost the same as Blu-Ray anyway) by adopting a three layer disk format.

I don't have a huge preference for which format wins. It's just that the extra 5 gigs per disk that Blu-Ray offers will come at a price. Blu-Ray's blue-green colored lasers are more expensive to produce than standard red ones, and disk production will be more expensive.

The way it stands, Blu-Ray is in a dominant position. Sony and Panasonic combined will be pretty impossible to overthrow. Hitachi and Toshiba (backers of HD-DVD) are huge companies, but not as huge in the consumer market.

onlooker
05-10-2005, 11:13 PM
Yes, but wouldn't a 3 layer disk cost more to the consumer than a blue ray disk? Look at recordable DVD's now as an example. I can buy a spindle of 100 DVD's for the price of 10 DL-DVDs, so how many 3 layer (3L) DVD's am I supposed to get at that cost? It also comes in 5 GB short on space vs. the regular blue ray disk in the end. :hmm:

TumikSmacker
05-11-2005, 12:08 AM
What does this mean for the next Xbox :(

tozz
05-11-2005, 12:28 AM
XB360 is DVD. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Sony developed a technology that made blu-ray pressing as cheap as hd-dvd (or cheaper) so the cost in manufacturing isn't as big a factor as before.

HD-DVD has a capacity of 15 GB (for dual-layer HD-DVD capacity would be 30 GB).
Those are the cheap discs, not the high density ones. So it's ~20gig more on blu-ray witch is quite alot.

Still, the best solution would be a unified format.

MaDSheeP
05-11-2005, 12:30 AM
Iím glad all this stuff isn't holding up the Xbox, if a game requires more than 9 gigs you get fit onto a current DVD, then they are doing something wrong... or really right... but more likely wrong...

Geta-Ve
05-11-2005, 01:32 AM
meh, bigger discs means longer games, better graphics and animations, bigger worlds to explore, better sound, etc etc etc

blu-ray apparently also was working on 100gig disc

Thalaxis
05-11-2005, 01:36 AM
Yet another classic case of ignoring both business and history... if every consumer
electronics company is working with a single format, volume will drive down the cost. It's
amazing how difficult it is for certain people to figure this simple concept out, even though
it's a common phenomenon.

Madsheep,
If that's 9 GB of extra content, it's a good thing for gamers if it's good content. Of course,
bad games will be bad no matter how much content they include, but then what makes them
inferior has nothing to do with their content, which explains why their content can't redeem
them.

firestar3d
05-11-2005, 02:15 AM
I agree on the argument that volume drives down price. Look back to the 80s and see how much CD's used to cost (not to mention CD players themselves), and people said it would never be as cheap as vinyl, yet today CDDA and CD-ROM is universally available (of course, the same argument is applicable to the current DVD format now).

Personally, I don't care which format wins. They're both much higher capacity than the current DVD capacity to start with. The only real problem I have is the fact that a format war is even a possibility here, because, like any form of war (real, imagined, consumer or military), the only people who lose out are those people targeted by one of these standards , such as confusion over which standard to adopt, dual development costs in the meantime that are passed onto the consumer, time wasted on developing a format that will be dropped, the possibility for the consumer that which ever product they buy, their standard could be dropped in favour of the other one and then they'll just have an expensive desk ornament. Look back to the 80's (again, I know) maybe it was the 70s? and see the format war between Betamax and VHS... Betamax was a technologically superior format with higher quality recordings, yet when the VHS format became standard, Beta was lost, and everyone with Beta-capable VCR's and editing facilities was left with expensive, and suddenly useless equipment (the only use for it now would be to convert recordings to VHS).

And bigger does not necessarily mean better. Some people think that extra animations and graphics, sound and music etcetc makes up for a crap story and shoddy gameplay. There were some really good games in the past, and despite the extra eye and ear candy, they're not really being surpassed. They still play pretty much the same, and in some cases, they play even worse (can anyone name some of the large corporate game houses who have produced a game that anyone can honestly say is ground-breaking in terms of gameplayand not graphics or sound?) Compare Unreal Tournament to UT 2004 for instance, the graphics are better, but the gameplay is pretty much the same.

PhilOsirus
05-11-2005, 03:23 AM
The demise of HD-DVD would result in the following:


More expensive movie rentals
More expensive blank disks
More expensive players
Sure, Blu-Ray has more capacity, but you'll have to pay dearly for it.


Yeah cheaper stuff tends to be... cheaper:p

ambient-whisper
05-11-2005, 03:25 AM
discs are discs, but i hope that something stops sony from making disc reading drives. their equipment is way too sensitive and fragile. i just hope that some sort of agreement could be reached between sony and toshiba/ pioneer/ or even panasonic ( their disc drives are solid ) to make their disc drives for the ps3. it would atleast solve the problem where the drives die out after a year or so.

i seem to be like a broken record on the issue, but dammit, ive had enough experience with their equipment and frankly, disc reading devices and sony should never mix.

PhilOsirus
05-11-2005, 03:26 AM
meh, bigger discs means longer games, better graphics and animations, bigger worlds to explore, better sound, etc etc etc

blu-ray apparently also was working on 100gig disc

No, as much as I prefer a higher capacity format it would not mean longer games, it just means more storage space for videos and sound data. There is no way that a level or two will be made in a game just because the format offers higher capacity.

sinnic
05-11-2005, 03:48 AM
I only skimmed through this, but it seemed to make Blu-Ray look really good.

http://www.cdfreaks.com/article/186

Beamtracer
05-11-2005, 04:31 AM
HD-DVD has a capacity of 15 GB (for dual-layer HD-DVD capacity would be 30 GB).
That's correct. However they haven't accounted for HD-DVD's tri-layer format. That brings it up to 45 gigs, compared to 50 gigs with Blu-Ray. Not much difference. I should log onto Wikipedia (http://www.wikipedia.org/) and correct it for them.

Fragile data

As the track pitch on a disc gets finer, and those little pits and bumps etched into them get smaller, the data on the disk gets more fragile.

A scratch across a disk is worse for DVD than CD, because DVD has a higher data density. Now with HD-DVD and Blu-Ray, the track pitch gets even smaller... Blu-Ray having the smallest of all.

Professionals using Blu-Ray will probably keep each disk permanently encased in a protective plastic cartridge. If you want to use these things for storing family photos, then a regular CD is probably more secure.

PhilOsirus
05-11-2005, 05:04 AM
That is all already being considered and remedied to. No holding back of better technologies can be good. If there is a problem, a solution will be found.

LiQ
05-11-2005, 05:17 AM
Wooo, go Blu-Ray!

Annnnnnnd PS3 is released tonight on MTV!!! I'm excited! The Xbox 360 is also, however we've already seen pics of that :D

Exciting time to be here!

Geta-Ve
05-11-2005, 05:28 AM
No, as much as I prefer a higher capacity format it would not mean longer games, it just means more storage space for videos and sound data. There is no way that a level or two will be made in a game just because the format offers higher capacity.

nah man, im sure many games have had to cut back on their "epic story" because they simply couldnt fit it all in the disc. With bigger capacity discs means longer story and longer games and bigger worlds.

at least thats how I see it

AW - ya man like I said in a different thread my ps2 laser has gone to hell with the stupid DRE's

liq - serious? ps3 being unveiled tonight?! oh man..

firestar3d
05-11-2005, 06:11 AM
I think a lot of whether a longer story is possible or not in a specific game due to the size of the media is actually dependant on how the cut-scenes are handled and how the levels are laid out. If you have the majority of your cut scenes in 3D real-time then there won't really be a need to have longer storylines than what is still possible in real-time graphics with the current formats. OTOH if the cut-scenes and other story elements are pre-rendered movies laced throughout the game (such as the Final Fantasy series) then the increased storage will indeed allow for longer sequences. Of course another way of using this increased storage is to increase the resolution of the video sequences (this won't really apply to TV based consoles, more to PC's and Macs with their displays) or to reduce the compression level, giving clearer video cut-scenes (which of course is a benefit to consoles too, not just PC's).

However, it's unlikely to have an effect on the quality of these aspects... That's something that only the game designers themselves can do anything about.

rakmaya
05-12-2005, 01:22 AM
The need for extra space is not directly related to cut scenes or music. A scene with 300K vertices with each vertices having position/normal/uv/tangent and the normal maps for them can take fill up quite a lot. Second thing you have to consider is that the textures in the next generation games are going to be big, not just 128/256. The more real time characters or object in the scene, the more of the work is required to make it even with the rest of high graphics. This is not only time consuming but also space-consuming. Also, you have to consider that the cut scenes, even if they are little, the support to include multiple resolution rendering means higher resolution scenes, which means it could take almost double the space of the game requirement easily. So for game developers such as Monolith Soft, SquareEnix, Polyphony and many others who already take advantage of dual layer, a 30 Gig filling will not be a problem at all.

Obviously increasing story or game time is not going to be happening as even a 40 to 60 hour RPG is considered good only as its story and gameplay. But for the graphics wise, it will fill up easily. On the top of that Sports and Adventure games will benefit of putting additional levels option to increase the gameplay variety.

CaptainJackSparrow
05-12-2005, 01:37 AM
Blu-Ray rocks, hope it wins! I say support the superior technlogy and don't settle for mediocrity.

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