Potential New User Questions

[chikega]

1) Can't really answer that question since I've never experienced Poser's shader system. You can watch a couple vids (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=125001&highlight=chikega) that I did, if you haven't seen them already, to get an idea. Also, download Thomas Helzle's AON Shader Manual to get an in-depth look at messiah's shader system.

2) Silo doesn't have UV mapping abilities yet - so, you'll need something like UV Mapper. Some have been using Wings3d and/or Blender's UV tools.

3) Are you looking at importing models from a CAD program? I'm sure you already know that Silo doesn't really support IGES, SAT, DWG, etc... being just a polygonal modeler. Also see this similar thread (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=235970).

[ThomasHelzle]

1.) yes, messiah has also a node based surface editor so it has a lot of similarities in the way it "thinks". But it also is rather different in some regards so plan for some time to get used to the differences. But your experience in Poser should definitely help.

2.)Yes, messiah can only use UVs that are already there, no UV manipulation is possible in the package. If Silo has none too, I would highly recommend looking into the UV Tools of the free Blender 3D (http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Home.2.0.html). They are the best I have seen so far - simple to use and extremely powerful. Be sure to watch the UV-Video-Tutorial from the Blender Website.
Some also like the UV tools of the free Wings3D modeler. I haven't tried these.

3.) Yes, this combination will get you everything to get started with character animation. Sometimes having not all the bells and whistles of the big apps will give you a much more calm environment to concentrate on what you want to do ;)
But since you didn't exactly specify what you want to accomplish, I can't give much of an more defined answer...

Cheers,

Edit: Hahaha Chikega was faster :thumbsup:

[chrome_gnome]

Thanks forthe answers. I am not looking to import CAD models, though I already discovered that from Solidworks I can export .stl files into blender which can then clean them up and export them as naked .obj files.

My basic conumdrum is to go the Silo/Messiah/UV Mapper ( I've tried Blender's but didn' get the hang of it) route or for basically the "same" amount of money go to Softimage:XSI Foundation. Silo is a much easier modeler to learn but it also is limited to SubD modeling. XSI comes with all the required tools but is much more cryptic to learn from my time in the demo. I'm just concerned with Messiah's reputation for lack of thorough documentation since I'll be learning this stuff on my own.

As for my goals I don't have a set goal in mind. I'm not trying to break into the CGI field as I make plenty of money in engineering and after reading the "State of the Industry" in 3D World I think my job security is better. I just like to model in 3d and would like to have a toolset(s) that will let me model, texture (UV and proceedural), rig and animate shorts with. The only "project" I have on the burner is some RPG game books that I'd like to get formalized with artwork and I suppose stills are probably the easiest to accomplish with nearly any modeler/renderer. I originally got Poser 5 and Bryce 5(now its up to 5.5) to explore the possibly of using these "poseable" 3d figures and scenes as ways to provide illustration of good quality for print.

I learned that I could get away with a modeler like Wings to make props for Bryce and Poser and the scenes were not too hard to set up and altering them was very easy. The biggest problem was in the speed of Bryce's render engine and the dificulty of getting textures to stay "attached" to the object files moving between applications. It looks like as long as I assign materials in the same ap that I use to render things are immensely easier. Hence my XSI versus Silo/M:S internal debate. Everyone says to download the demos and pick the one I like best. Problem alot of non-noobs forget is it can be tricky for noobs to "evaluate" the software in the demo period since we have a learning curve to overcome at the same time we are trying to see how the programs features work. I've been going back and forth in my mind for about two weeks now between these two paths.

You answers help clarify things about this route thankfully. Still doesn't make the decision any easier just removes some concerns :)

[DarkSybesis]

Excuse me for intruding this discussion... I dont want to make an other post for the same question...

Is messiah able to make liquid or water with the particles. Something like the blob meshes of 3dsmax?

For Silo hum they are working on a uvediting mode... I cannot say when they are supoosed to bring a realease with it.

I dont know if i'm wrong but the shader of messiah workstation look like maya shaders.

do the partcle have some kind of collision detection so they could bounce stich or slide on a surface...?

That is really a cool animator application as i seen in m:animate demo.

I'm may be going to buy zbrush for making displacement map. because i dont know any other way to make great map easily.

[chrome_gnome]

Ahh that Blender video tutorial was very helpful. I may be able to use it afterall for UV.

[AAAron]

..choosing the "silo, uvmapper, messiah" is something I feel very happy with. To have separate apps for every step fits me very good. You don´t get lost in the interfaces so to say. And if you don´t need the network rendering go with messiah workstaion instead of studio, you can always upgrade later.

[chikega]

I'm learning XSI myself and I would have to agree that it's shader system is a bit more challenging to learn than messiah's. So, if you're looking for a simpler and more elegant node-based shader paradigm then, I'd go with messiah.

[private]

Ahh that Blender video tutorial was very helpful. I may be able to use it afterall for UV.

Can you post the direct link? I can't find what you're talking about on the Blender site. Thanks in advance.

[ThomasHelzle]

The direct link to the very good Blender video tutorial:
http://www.blender3d.org/cms/Model_Material_Light.397.0.html -> LSCM UV Mapping
You may want to give the other videos a try also if you want to use more of Blenders rather complete toolset.

The docs for my AoN:studio shaders (~50MB) can be downloaded for free from this location:
http://www.screendream.de/AoN_studio.htm -> "Download the Helpfile"
While being mostly directed to the shaders itself, they also explain a big deal about how messiahs renderer and shaderflow works in general.

I know exactly what you guys mean with the "try the demo to find your tools" problem. How should you evaluate something without knowing exactly what to look for - the old hen and egg theme again ;)
In my experience the "lightweight" toolset route has a big advantage for individuals.
I have seen too many People and Productions that use Maya without really knowing what they do. The outcome looks less than cool since the complexity of the app just ate up all the time that should have gone into creating good models, textures, lighting etc.
I've recently shown some stuff to a guy from a big agency here in Berlin - sure they use maya: "Why does your stuff look so much better than ours?" ... Hm... ;)
With tools like Lightwave, messiah, ZBrush etc. you may come closer to your dream as with one of the so called "major apps" that are intended for bigger teams or "doing nothing else" basically.

Poser is another good example for a heavily underrated Tool. The latest Version 6 has very cool Cloth with full dynamics, very fast Hair rendering and instant figures that look quite natural. I started using Poser with version 1 (which came on two floppys if I remember correctly :) ) and it has come a long way from there.
Be sure to grab the now free Victoria3 and Michael3 from DAZ3D to have more good figures in the arsenal :)

As for "Subdivs modeling only": There isn't much you can't achieve with them. Nurbs may be cool for CAD, but for everything else, Subdivs are the best and most flexible and easy to use you can get. Just be aware of the fact that you have to stick to quads (preferred) and triangles to render them in messiah.

The particle system in messiah is very much a work in progress that evolves with each new patch and version. It isn't anywhere close to the available options in apps like maya or houdini, but for the average smoke or simple fluid it works nicely as long as you render on one machine only (since there is no way of baking them yet).
And yes, it has collision detection ;)

Finally to the question about texturing. As a rule of thumb:
- Image maps that are placed with UVmaps can be done in every app and will stay placed correctly equal which tool you use to render (there may be some smaller things to be aware of but nothing serious).
- Procedurals should alway be applied in the app you want to render with. There is no way of transporting them (only Darktree offers some kind of app-independent approach to this).

I hope this clears some things up :)

Cheers,

[DarkSybesis]

yep nice. If i have more questions i'll ask but for now messiah is on the topof the list of my thing to buy.

if i compare silo/messiah/zbrush

to

maya

it will cost much more less for result apparently as good or better. Cya

[DarkSybesis]

yep nice. If i have more questions i'll ask but for now messiah is on the topof the list of my thing to buy.

if i compare silo/messiah/zbrush

to

maya

it will cost much more less for result apparently as good or better. Cya

[heynewt]

People and Productions that use Maya without really knowing what they do. The outcome looks less than cool since the complexity of the app just ate up all the time that should have gone into creating good models, textures, lighting etc.
I've recently shown some stuff to a guy from a big agency here in Berlin - sure they use maya: "Why does your stuff look so much better than ours?" ... Hm... ;)

Cheers,

Thomas,

That's such a common story. That's happened to me a number of times with Lightwave. NEWS FOR THE AGENCY GUYS WITH THE MAYA BOX ON HIS SHELF: It's not the package, it's your eye, and it's your experience with the software that allows you to do killer animations. Any of the major packages, in the right hands, can produce stuff that will blow you away. It's that "right hands" part that nobody sells yet.

Robert Newton

[DarkSybesis]

Yes like taron do. Not everyone can do a work like this at first.

Just wanted to know if it is able to do a render to texture for models....

I'm working on game and i'll need some kind of render to texture if i use some procedural shader for walls etc...

And hum when we buy do we receive a box with cds or we just download the software?

[private]

Thanks for the link Thomas.

[AAAron]

And hum when we buy do we receive a box with cds or we just download the software?

Since you need a dongle you have to wait for that to arrive. But pmg are quick they post the stuff asap.

[ThomasHelzle]

In the current version, there is no texture baking / render to texture in messiah. hopefully pmG is aware of the pressing need thought, so maybe this will not take too long...

I don't know how the current shipping package looks - I bought mine ages ago. But since you need a dongle to run messiah, you definitely get something sent - I would assume a dongle and a CD.

Cheers,

[AAAron]

[QUOTE=Thomas_Helzle]
I don't know how the current shipping package looks - I bought mine ages ago. But since you need a dongle to run messiah, you definitely get something sent - I would assume a dongle and a CD.[QUOTE]

Yep, bought my copy in december. I got a nice dvd style case with a cd and a dongle :)

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