PDA

View Full Version : who can call themself an ARTIST?


eparts
05-07-2005, 11:24 AM
Well, yeah, this is a question that bothers me a lot. Who are the artists?

People who educate themselves, goes to art colleges etc. can call them self professional artists, but what about the rest?

If a person who has no job, no education no nothing, but still only paint or create sculptures, would he be respected as an artist among the rest? And who deserves to get paid for what they do?
Art is something that doesn't give anything to the society, but still something the society needs. Is there an idea of which artists we need?

jbo
05-07-2005, 11:47 AM
Art is something that doesn't give anything to the society, but still something the society needs.

uhhh... ok. why does society need it if it's not giving anything?

as for who deserves to get paid, that one's pretty simple. whoever is able to find someone who is willing to pay them for their art deserves to get paid.

Dr. Ira Kane
05-07-2005, 12:32 PM
This word is used way too often, let's face it we are not real artists, well most of us. I don't like when ppl call me that, too many people think they're artists and do art when they are just morons thinking God knows what of themselves. Dali, da Vinci.... those were real artists, we have only a chance for now to be an artist :)

eparts
05-07-2005, 12:57 PM
uhhh... ok. why does society need it if it's not giving anything?

I am talking about art, not illustration for books, films etc. Even if this is a illustration&design forum, I posted here because this thread is meant for art discussion.
Art is something we desperatly need because we need some reflection of ourselves, society politics etc.. This can be decoration of public places, subways etc which most people don't notife.

Modern art aren't looked upon as commercial art all the time. Surreal installations of video and whatever experimenting expressions you may find. Nobody buys most of the art being made, and you should be aware that artists arent able to live on what they sell out of their work. Artists usually get paid by the goverment so that they can survive, and get stipendiums for projects etc. It is only the most succesfull artists that are able to live by their own seeds

To me every artist is important, because an artist has a view and version out of something. Art is a questionmark that may be foolish, but often means much to us.
Hm, I believe this is a harder question that I thought it would be.. Love to hear your thouights around this

Sesther
05-07-2005, 01:18 PM
I don't like to think that to be able to call oneself an artist you have to be educated in art schools. Neither do I think that only those who get paid doing art are artists.
When you are an artist you can feel it in your heart. Vincent van Gogh sold only one painting in his entire life and lived his life in poverty... but he loved what he was doing. But did he become an artist only after he died? Do you really need a public to be an artist?

Who can say who deserves to be called an artist... :-) To me art is expressing ourselves and our feelings. It's not always pretty but then again.. it's not about good taste or opinions either.. me thinks ;-)

jbo
05-07-2005, 01:22 PM
I am talking about art, not illustration for books, films etc.

i didn't question what you were talking about (though i wonder why you would not call such things art). I just don't understand how you can feel that art is something we desperately need, and also say that it's not giving anything to society. i guess it all comes down to what you consider art, but we've had plenty of those kind of discussions, and i don't think i can take another.

eparts
05-07-2005, 01:44 PM
Okay JBO, maybe I took that a bit on the edge. I still call that art, but I call that art which sells or has its purpose in the industry. Nearly everything is art. There is so much that can be called art that I was worried about starting this thread.
I believe I splitted this post in two where there was a definition of art needed and the question of who can use the title artist. sorry

Are there any artists here btw? I don't think I can call myself one. My title is student, but creates imaginary art as a hobby. Hobby-artist? :shrug:

Peddy
05-07-2005, 01:48 PM
Art is something that doesn't give anything to the society, but still something the society needs. Is there an idea of which artists we need?

whoah. go find a society without art and tell me how you like it. my vote, itll be a messed up place. art is culture, and culture is society.

and as for the main question: i can. one day ill even go as far as to slap 'professional' on the front, but thats only when i earn money from my skills (gotta find those as well)

jmBoekestein
05-07-2005, 02:00 PM
Maybe it's the wrong way to look at it. As a general rule artist is a collective word used to simplify some conversation, something like "artists who worked on that [anything inserted] or who express[arb. emotion] in their [medium of choice]."

For the sake of not becoming vain and proud about youself(if you realise that those things will inevitably work against you) just use your name and then say you're a painter, animator, rigger, modeller and maybe say you'd like to learn other crafts too, seriously, I'm not being sarcastic. This is more efficient than giving/granting yourself a title, since the attention is instantly on your craft and area of expertise. But I don't object to it personnally, just suggesting. If you have the capacity to use an artistic medium to express yourself to a certain extent, then you are an artist, maybe a real lousy one but an artist nonetheless. excelling is what ouur society seems to be all about so draw your own conclusions on that(might save us another organised decay;)).

Example, I do many things really badly, but I can do so many different things that I'm still a certifiable artiste.:wise: Maybe you should be honest with yourself so you can get on with the learning process. You're probably not as good as Dali/Degass/Sargent so get with it and laern every day.

Codexus
05-07-2005, 02:01 PM
No one can call himself an artist. It's other people who call him that. Then that person is an artist to some people who see what he does as art.
It doesn't matter how bad you are, as long as someone sees your work as art, you are an artist to them.
It doesn't matter how famous you are, if someone doesn't see any artistic value to your work, you're not an artist to them.
So basically there is no point in trying to find a global definition to the word, there are as many definitions as there are people.

jmBoekestein
05-07-2005, 02:16 PM
So basically there is no point in trying to find a global definition to the word, there are as many definitions as there are people.

I think you have to consider issues of slef esteem, what if everybody says you're an artist and you feel you are not, or the other way around. Would you then be living a fake life and such. Understanding why and how does help, but if you allready have a problem with it, and the issue of "name-calling" will continue, maybe there is need for some sort of resolution. But don't ask me what the answer is because I'm a creative designer with an eccentric artistic flair for the obvious since three minutes ago.

kevinw
05-07-2005, 02:23 PM
Whether or not someone is an artist isn't defined by what they've done, how successful they are, how people perceive them, and especially what medium they work in...

The definition of Art is different for everyone.. What about Culinary Arts or Martial arts...

Search your heart and express yourself... I think that can make anyone an artist :arteest:

Art2
05-07-2005, 02:47 PM
Search your heart and express yourself... I think that can make anyone an artist :arteest:

well put kevin.
You're an artist when you feel it in your heart. You may be a crap artist, but when you feel the love for your craft in every vein in your body and express it in some way, you are an artist.

Then there are the Masters :)

cha0t1c1
05-07-2005, 03:44 PM
I think an artist is the successfull person at achieving an accurate expression translation of a thaught, an emotion, or a POV...

paperclip
05-07-2005, 04:19 PM
Well said, Art2, indeed there are artists and there are masters....hmm. Master and servant?

Must go work on my m & s!!

(runs off to find graphic tablet)

NOOB!
05-07-2005, 05:57 PM
huh? wha?

aight,so i'm gunna avoid all the cheesy crap about *its in ur heart* :rolleyes: and instead say WTF!

cos,the question itself i feel is a bit....*hey use ur common sense*-ish if u follow me,heh.

anyone can call emself an artist,cos its what u do.

its like saying, *when can i be called an actor*....ehm...when u start acting maybe?

when can i call this a chocolate bar,uhm....WELL JUST LOOK AT IT! lol.

when can i call myself a male?.....look...in the mirror...whats that...a penis...thats right.hehe

i think u guys get my point.if not,feel free to kick my ass when u see me in the street one day :thumbsup:

Kid-Mesh
05-07-2005, 06:24 PM
Art is just the by-product of your inner most creative impluses which implies that anyone and everyone can be an artist. What ever your creative impluses lead you to do such as stacking metal junk in a way to be observed in an artistic manner by others. Or masterfully going on a massive killing spree in a methodical yet ritual manner to reflect your inner demons. Or even just creating what could be considered one of the most breath taking paintings of your era. Those are just a few examples of inner creative impluses at work and by your own admission or others it's artistic and you are the artist.

In the end, art is just artificial....art imitating life on whatever level...it has nothing to do skill.



I am an artist. :arteest:

What are you?

Per-Anders
05-07-2005, 06:31 PM
gotta agree with NOOB here. too much pretention on being an "Artiste" over just being an "Artist" being and artist is not that special, it's what you do, it's what you are, therefore it's what you are described as.

There are different kinds of artists, profesionals, amatures, commercial artists, illustrators, architects... good artists and bad artists, but they all have the right to call themselves artists, being an artist is a vocation.

Enayla
05-07-2005, 07:08 PM
I never refer to myself as an artist if I can help it. The title simply comes hand in hand with a world of trouble.

I have a very distinct memory of an middle-aged man looking much as if he wished he could punch my face in when I held a seminar and the guy who introduced me referred to me as "digital konstnär" (digital artist, in Swedish).

Apparently, one such as I has no right calling herself an artist. I'm fine with that. I honestly couldn't care less what title people would prefer putting on me - labels are old, and tired, and there are always people who will be all too willing to deny you the right to call yourself whatever label you choose to put on yourself.

I've been told alternatively that I'm a 'real artist' and that my work has 'no artistic merit at all'. I used to get hurt whenever someone decided I wasn't an artist, but that was when I was young and vulnerable and actually cared about things like that. Now - as long as they're not referring to me by four letter words, as such, I'm fine with whatever. Likewise, I don't give a damn who the people who think of themselves as 'real artists' are. If they think they are, as far as I'm concerned, they are.

paperclip
05-07-2005, 07:19 PM
He sounds like a strange man!

You create art....digitally....of course you're a digital artist.
Maybe he was having a bad day?!

Enayla
05-07-2005, 07:20 PM
Nah. What he said, loudly and angrily -- was that no one who does not create something fresh and new and challenging has the right to call themselves an artist. It was the first speech I was ever to hold, man, he pretty much ruined that day for me.

chow-mein
05-07-2005, 07:20 PM
Agreed. I think we spend too much time debating over philosophical differences. What is Art with a capital "A" anyways? If you want to call yourself an artist, craftsman, sculptor, painter, illustrator, potter, sandwich artist, by all means. As to what art has to contribute to society, ask the artist you have one answer, ask the patrons you'll get another answer. It's pretty much a subjective argument with no clear "end all say all" answer. That's what makes art dynamic, fluid and FUN!

paperclip
05-07-2005, 07:32 PM
That dude doesn't know what he is talking about. There is no such thing as 'new' anymore-- has he never heard of 'intertextuality'? I'm not sure what the art version of it is but it means that every great writer builds on the great artists who have come before him. There is 'new' art, but there is also art that respects tradition and the beauty of the world around us. Anyone who tries to push this beauty into their work deserves the title of artist.

I bet that guy loves pictures of squares.

Art2
05-07-2005, 07:37 PM
huh? wha?

aight,so i'm gunna avoid all the cheesy crap about *its in ur heart* :rolleyes: and instead say WTF!

cos,the question itself i feel is a bit....*hey use ur common sense*-ish if u follow me,heh.

anyone can call emself an artist,cos its what u do.

Haha, I like that!
I think you're right NOOB.
Yes, it's what you do, it's what you are and admit it...

it's in your heart ;)

Per-Anders
05-07-2005, 07:56 PM
Nah. What he said, loudly and angrily -- was that no one who does not create something fresh and new and challenging has the right to call themselves an artist. It was the first speech I was ever to hold, man, he pretty much ruined that day for me.

Ignore pretentious twats like that Linda, I come from a whole family of artists, all their friends were artists, all the people we visited while I grew up, and now i'm an artist. To me it's concrete, and concrete definition, I am an artist, I know you are an artist. It's not a word to be scared of.

Recently my father after 60 years of traditional media painting, sculpting, illustrating, fine art and graphic design started to use the computer for his artwork, he loves it! And he's certainly not ceased to be an artist.

People place too much emphasis on the name, and then old fuddy duddies who're feeling insecure about being suplanted place too much emphasis on media, technique, sensationalism and what critics and curators say over using their own eyes. Real artists do the job that's before them much as anyone else, they use the tools to hand...

I'd like to ask that man what he thought about Andy Goldsworthy, and how that relates to traditional media, and what he thinks of video installation, and how that relates to for instance the turner prize, and then how that's so very veyr different a media to computers... maybe it's just a misconception that the computer does the work for you... ah well, regardless, ignore those people... everyone.

ashakarc
05-07-2005, 08:08 PM
This social distinction between an artist and a digital artist is, I hope just transitional until the boundaries are blurred completely. I myself struggled with this for a long time. As an architectural designer, I was completely undermined as a designer because of my computer skills when I was doing my Master thesis. There was no point for me to debate with someone who thinks there is a genie inside that box that does all the work for you. It's not the title that is the problem, it is the general misconception of the trade. As if only those who use traditional media are true artists or architects.

CCDrkNrgy
05-07-2005, 08:10 PM
Personally, I don't call my self an artist, because I don't think I'm good enough. I don't see myself as an artist. I simply fill a need within myself to create, be it through cooking, drawing, painting, knitting, beading, etc. Now I'm into digital arts and computer graphics. I wonder if Van Gogh really considered himself an ARTIST or if he just do what he felt he needed to do. How does one define the term anyway? Is it something one gets paid for as a profession, because I certainly don't believe in selling my work?

Unless a standard definition is given, then who's to say who or what an artist is?

cha0t1c1
05-07-2005, 09:09 PM
I Think that being called an artist is more accurate, calling urself an artis(I feel) is just outright pretentious...so, if people call you an artist then you are, 'nuff said...

Tonci
05-07-2005, 09:17 PM
I am an artist.

hypercube
05-07-2005, 09:29 PM
An artist is definitely an artist regardless of the medium..even if you don't like a particular form, art is still art..you can make your own grand judgements of things but really it's just as pretentious to say someone can't be called an artist, if they're making art. The whole capital-A Art vs. lowercase-a art debate, or the "but is it art?" thing will probably never end either, but all that is silly IMO..that's still just saying "art you like" vs "art you don't like" in a nutshell.

I don't really feel bad or self conscious about calling myself an artist, though others have called me that without asking, which helps, but no matter what, it IS still what I do. I do still unfortunately feel the need to qualify it with "CG Artist" but I've seen other people be specific about the mediums or areas they work in likewise, "Concept Artist" or as mentioned Painter vs. Sculptor etc. so that's ok I think.

If we were 'grading on a curve' I wouldn't stand up to the very top-of-the-line people here and elsewhere, but luckily we don't, so I can be an artist my own little self alongside the best. It's adding the "well-known" or "renowned" or "award-winning" part in front of the Artist title that takes all the work. :)

ozhaver
05-07-2005, 09:37 PM
Photography went through the same struggle that digital art is going through now...

eparts
05-07-2005, 10:35 PM
Nah. What he said, loudly and angrily -- was that no one who does not create something fresh and new and challenging has the right to call themselves an artist.

Linda, this was more the less the definition I had in mind when I made the thread.. The idea of what and who is the artist (en konstnär hörs mycket mer i den riktning jag menade :scream: )

The word artist is very much used, especially in the online art forum. I personally think we should be more aware of what 'art' is becoming at the online stage.. After browsing sites and communities I find headings like:
Decorate your home with Real Art - daprints.com
Ofcourse this quote can be doubtful.. especially when you got some what idea of what real art is.. I dont know yet, but there are certainly some expectations out there.. and i believe in some of them..
-
But yeah..
everyone who creates something creative like paint, write poems or create interresting creatures in the cornflakes have the right to call them self an artist.. or atleast call their actions artistic.

eparts
05-07-2005, 10:36 PM
Oz. I didnt start this thread concerning what art techniques are used and what is acceptable. Digital art is also used much by "Artists"

goertzen_frank
05-07-2005, 10:56 PM
Everyone is an artist.

StealthPharaoh
05-07-2005, 11:10 PM
anyone can call himself an artist if he wants to and anyone can call u an artist..i personaly see myself as a begginer artist and i don't care much what people think of me..it's how u see yourself in an honest way that really counts

as far as the questions in the first post..hmm i guess u just use common sense..but the word artist have nothing to do with who gets paid for what he does..also the word artist is just like the word art..what is art and what is not..i guess people can argue about this forever..everyone see art in a different way..same thing for the word artist, it's all about opinions

noen
05-07-2005, 11:56 PM
Yeah, as if this topic hasn't been debated ad nausium since the begining of the usenet.

In general, art is a deeply personal expression through any avialable medium, even light, the earth, anything. So if what you do is express yourself through a medium then you're an artist. You may or may not be a very good one, or not have anything interesting to say, but you're still an artist.

Illustration is a commercial transaction and the work in question may or may not be "art" as defined above. In recent times, there has been a fashion for designers and commercial artists to be more "artistic" but it's hard to tell how long this fashion will last. A good example might be in the magazine "Cooks Illustrated", my favorite cooking mag. Inside the magazine steps in preparing a certain dish are often illustrated in highly rendered pencil drawings. These are, in my book, illustrations. They lack any emotional content at all. The cover of the same magazine is often a nice pastel of a featured dish inside. These occupy a sort of grey area in my mind, they are nicely done and convey a certain mood but I wouldn't call them fine art.

It's something of a common place to denigrate fine art these days. Mainly, I believe, because people are ignorant in the arts because we don't teach art in the schools anymore. The teachers are too busy ducking the gunshots and feel lucky if they can graduate a student who is moderately literate. Another reason is that many people, especially artists, being uneducated in the form and history of their trade, are insecure, so some people fall back on a defense mechanism of bad mouthing what one doesn't understand. Worse still, jingoism is all the rage these days.

Personally, I like high and low brow art, insider and outsider, fine and commercial art, anything. But it has to speak to me or reach out and slap me upside the head. Something! As for myself, I consider myself an artist, but recently I've been through a rough period and havn't produced much.

If you put your heart and soul into something, you're and artist, period.

jmBoekestein
05-08-2005, 12:06 AM
This is one of the few references on "art" I could find, besides there being little comprehension as to why we even have the word I find the most unsettling the little undertsanding that is found as to the effects of it. Only the specific artforms that can be found lucrative are seemingly held in high regard. Above that, I see actually no purpose in holding any value to a word which can be as easily spoken as a dog can pass wind. But what the hey, we try to be civilised don't we.

Well I believe in the context of this thread I'd like to point out number 7.b, allthough a comes into play equally I think it holds the most truth. Equally valuable perceptions at that.

Enjoy your self-criticism.

[source: web: the free dictionary.com] (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/art)


art

Word:
art
1 Pronunciation (ärt)
n.
1. Human effort to imitate, supplement, alter, or counteract the work of nature.
2.
a. The conscious production or arrangement of sounds, colors, forms, movements, or other elements in a manner that affects the sense of beauty, specifically the production of the beautiful in a graphic or plastic medium.
b. The study of these activities.
c. The product of these activities; human works of beauty considered as a group.
3. High quality of conception or execution, as found in works of beauty; aesthetic value.
4. A field or category of art, such as music, ballet, or literature.
5. A nonscientific branch of learning; one of the liberal arts.
6.
a. A system of principles and methods employed in the performance of a set of activities: the art of building.
b. A trade or craft that applies such a system of principles and methods: the art of the lexicographer.
7.
a. Skill that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of the baker; the blacksmith's art.
b. Skill arising from the exercise of intuitive faculties: "Self-criticism is an art not many are qualified to practice" Joyce Carol Oates.
8.
a. arts Artful devices, stratagems, and tricks.
b. Artful contrivance; cunning.
9. Printing Illustrative material.
[Middle English, from Old French, from Latin ars, art-; see ar- in Indo-European roots.]
Synonyms: art1, craft, expertise, knack, know-how, technique
These nouns denote skill in doing or performing that is attained by study, practice, or observation: the art of rhetoric; pottery that reveals an artist's craft; political expertise; a knack for teaching; mechanical know-how; a precise diving technique.

art
2 Pronunciation (rt; ärt when stressed)

v. Archaic
A second person singular present indicative of be.
[Middle English, from Old English eart; see er-1 in Indo-European roots.]

jbo
05-08-2005, 12:56 AM
this was more the less the definition I had in mind when I made the thread..

here's something to think about... "fresh and new" doesn't really mean that much in the long run. in 400 years people looking back on the work of artists of today will not be thinking so much about what was fresh and new, but what is good.

take Bach as an example. he did nothing new. while other composers were starting to move from counterpoint to chordal harmony, bach stayed with counterpoint and perfected it more than any other composer. people of his time thought he was stuck in the past and not doing anything "fresh and new and challenging." now when we look back on music of that era, we recognize that he was a great composer because style is just style, and when you're far far removed from the trends of the 18th century like we are, you actually just see what's good.

you can even notice this with film... movies like seven samurai and citizen kane, that were very innovative.... if you show them to someone now, who's seen all of the things that were new about them in hundreds of other movies since... they'll like them because they are good movies, but probably not realize, or care about the historical importance of them.

kevinw
05-08-2005, 02:20 AM
huh? wha?

aight,so i'm gunna avoid all the cheesy crap about *its in ur heart* :rolleyes: and instead say WTF!

cos,the question itself i feel is a bit....*hey use ur common sense*-ish if u follow me,heh.

anyone can call emself an artist,cos its what u do.

its like saying, *when can i be called an actor*....ehm...when u start acting maybe?

when can i call this a chocolate bar,uhm....WELL JUST LOOK AT IT! lol.

when can i call myself a male?.....look...in the mirror...whats that...a penis...thats right.hehe

i think u guys get my point.if not,feel free to kick my ass when u see me in the street one day :thumbsup:


If I ever see you on the street I will kick you in the ass:thumbsup:

It wasn't meant to be chessy just trying to simplify everyones misguided theories on wha an artist is

Tha being said...

This might be the lamest thread on all of CG talk.. Why don't all you "artists" get back to... what ever the hell it is you do....:D

jmBoekestein
05-08-2005, 03:28 AM
How's the spelling coming along NOOB, are they letting you out of the third grade this year?

Would be fun to play with grown ups wouldn't it.:) Yes I bet you would.


For crying out loud, first I skip the post for the silly language then it gets quoted and it still is a ghastly example of ignorance. If you take everything at face value where would we be? Next thing you know we'll be flung to the stone age again because it ain't got no jiggie wih it!:shrug: com-mu-ni-ca-tion.

cha0t1c1
05-08-2005, 04:07 AM
Hypercube:

I didn't say such things, if you read both of my posts they will seem contradicting but related, just like modern and neo-classic art.

I only said that true Artists are actually quite humble, and try to specify if not deny the art the produce. in addition, the ancient masters joked about their artistry...

I feel quite ashamed that modern artists blab to everyone about being artists...

cheers

pascal_blanche
05-08-2005, 04:24 AM
found on encyclopedia:
Artist is a broad term. This is because the activities of artistic production are many and various. Often we speak of writers, actors, dancers, musicians, filmmakers and singers as artists. A more restricted meaning is one who makes (usually visual) art, i.e. a Fine Artist. This also distinguishes Artist from one who makes objects that can be categorised as being works of Applied Art.

The broader meanings of the term artist are cited in the Oxford English dictionary as follows:

A learned person or Master of Arts.
One who persues a practical science, traditionally medicine, astrology, alchemy, chemistry.
A follower of a pursuit in which skill comes by study or practice - the opposite of a theorist.
a follower of a manual art, such as a mechanic.
one who makes their craft a fine art.
Visual Arts can be sub-divided into two-dimensional media (Painting, Drawing, Printmaking, Photography, Graphic Design, Typography, Textile Design or Surface Pattern Design), three-dimensional art can be sub-divided into (Sculpture, Ceramics, Architecture) etc., four-dimensional media into (Performance Art, Film, Video, Movement). There is another category that does not fit comfortably into any of these three areas, namely Conceptual Art.


We all are artists in a way.. but maybe more humble artists, like "artisans" wich mean craftmen in french

For my part the Artist (with the big A) is someone who inspires others by his talent, or imagination.

hypercube
05-08-2005, 08:22 AM
I didn't say such things, if you read both of my posts they will seem contradicting but related, just like modern and neo-classic art.

I only said that true Artists are actually quite humble, and try to specify if not deny the art the produce. in addition, the ancient masters joked about their artistry...

I feel quite ashamed that modern artists blab to everyone about being artists...Well, I wasn't specifically only addressing your posts, I was simply saying what I thought in general.

I definitely don't feel it's right to run around talking about how awesome you are either, and some people take the 'artist lifestyle' thing way too far as well, like it's some kind of chip on their shoulder, and they have to be more bohemian and more 'into it' than the next guy.

But I don't think you have to be completely apologetic about it and shirk it either, most artists if they care about what they're doing are their own worst critics anyway, and will be the first to note things they could improve, or take reasonable criticism, and are always trying to learn more. But if you're happy with how something turned out, saying so isn't necessarily runaway ego either. If you don't get some kind of enjoyment out of it or can't take even a smidgeon of pride in some of what you create, then you kind of have to wonder why you'd be doing it. Regardless you should be able to say it's what you do, if it's what you do, on the most basic level.

Anyway I think there should be a balance of both, all things in moderation..it's bad if no one ever takes you seriously at all, but at the same time you can't take yourself too seriously.

Hope any of that made any kind of sense.

Tad
05-08-2005, 08:27 AM
art is art,
trying to classify it is without merit.

anyone who does anything creative can call themselves an artist if they want.

I've been drawing all my life,
been into cg for some of my life,
and I rarely call myself "an artist"

but doesn't mean i'm not one,
just don't like barfing the term out at everyone to try and act spiffy.

to ask who/what is considered an artist almost makes it seem like you want to label it,
and that isn't something it needs really.

NOOB!
05-08-2005, 08:32 AM
How's the spelling coming along NOOB, are they letting you out of the third grade this year?

Would be fun to play with grown ups wouldn't it.:) Yes I bet you would.


For crying out loud, first I skip the post for the silly language then it gets quoted and it still is a ghastly example of ignorance. If you take everything at face value where would we be? Next thing you know we'll be flung to the stone age again because it ain't got no jiggie wih it!:shrug: com-mu-ni-ca-tion.

lol,using the *spelling bashing* technique are we,so many people bash ur spelling when they can't back up their points with sumthin better.and its fun too cos i admire ur art jim.

half of forums type like this to save time maybe?

*jigge with it* ??? i'm loving the prejudice attitude man.

great job on losing a fan.

p.s. ur telling me about ignorance? u just typed the most ignorant thing ever,i don't speak the way u do so that automatically means my point is worthless?

anyway,i'm gunna shrug this off and go for a jog,i've come across too many *hey this guy isn't speaking the queens english,so he is nothing* types to let it frustrate me.

bye bye.

Kanga
05-08-2005, 08:50 AM
I guess real artists are too busy to be bothered with labels.

NOOB!
05-08-2005, 10:41 AM
anyone can call themselve an artist.

the real question is,who can call themeselves a professional artist.

or maybe thats what the person who posted this thread meant to say. *who can call themeselves a professional artist.*

NOOB!
05-08-2005, 11:03 AM
If I ever see you on the street I will kick you in the ass:thumbsup:

It wasn't meant to be chessy just trying to simplify everyones misguided theories on wha an artist is

Tha being said...

This might be the lamest thread on all of CG talk.. Why don't all you "artists" get back to... what ever the hell it is you do....:D

hah! this thread isn't lame,its interesting,it just when i here things like *its from the heart* i just picture a guy floating in happy colourful world.lol,but i did get ur point.

and dude did u really have to jump in the street,?? i was kiddin about that part.

*walks away limping*

eparts
05-08-2005, 11:06 AM
good one, Kanga :D



or maybe thats what the person who posted this thread meant to say. *who can call themeselves a professional artist.*

Yes, this is what I am going for.. But im not sure if Professional artist exist..

Perhaps using only the word artist was a bit provoking, which led this thread to repeat itself

_slvl
05-08-2005, 11:16 AM
I think people should be first and foremost be called at what they're doing. (i.e. painter, sculptor, photographer)

I think the old masters didn't see themselves as artists. Rembrandt was a painter, DaVincy was a scientist (most of his drawings are studies, of the mechanics of the human body for instance)

In my opinion nobody can be called an artist by default, by just being a painter, photographer or whatever. You have to earn the title. I think people should be a little humble. That way the reward of beïng called an artist is that much greater, it's the reward of your efforts. It should be an hounorable title.

If everybody calls themself an artist, there's no reward in being called one since everybody calls themselves an arstist. It loses it's value. (Would ,say, a Ferrari be special if everybody had one? )

just my 2 cents.

NOOB!
05-08-2005, 11:17 AM
hehe yeh,i get ya.

u know...i don't think ur a professional artist until ur dead.as odd as it sounds heh,its what my art professer told me

*wait,don't PROFESSERS have to PROFESSIONALS?? NOOB! IS CONFUSED*

not sure if he was kiddin around.

just like bruce lee wasn't a *legend* until he died,that type of thing.

if ur talking industrially *sp?* ur probably a professional when u've got a job ,with the big companies, and ur name is pretty common in the industry.

i dunno,its pretty hard to define *professional*

jmBoekestein
05-08-2005, 01:11 PM
lol,using the *spelling bashing* technique are we,so many people bash ur spelling when they can't back up their points with sumthin better.and its fun too cos i admire ur art jim.

half of forums type like this to save time maybe?

*jigge with it* ??? i'm loving the prejudice attitude man.

great job on losing a fan.

p.s. ur telling me about ignorance? u just typed the most ignorant thing ever,i don't speak the way u do so that automatically means my point is worthless?

anyway,i'm gunna shrug this off and go for a jog,i've come across too many *hey this guy isn't speaking the queens english,so he is nothing* types to let it frustrate me.

bye bye.

Ok, then. If I can't decode your posts, I can't bloody understand them can I.

If half of forum folk do that I'd probably not be here would I. I realise though in your more recent posts, that you were lying here, because I can somewhat discern a pattern of someone who's trying to be funny. People give their honest opinions on things and you ridicule that by makng it look like a joke or a bad punch line in a movie. And it's bothering me.:scream:

And if that jiggie remark comes across as racist I apologise, I was referring to the infamous Fresh Prince. So I take that back.:wise:

So on to the matter.:shrug:

I don't want to bust your balls on this but the word professional is exactly only used when someone is making money from something and is reputable, meaning simply people will come back for more. Van Gogh wasn't a professional if he had been doing other things on the side in his days. Again, not busting your balls on this, but your language skills lack some refinement. Professional comes from latin and measn roughly to carry forth, in a sense that someone can on their own strenght uphold their skill. And in this matter I would simply do this >>link (http://www.cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2254754&postcount=37)<< and refer to what I've stated there.

But I assume the core to the matter bugging you is "when are you a good enough and "worthy" enough to call yourself an artist?", I would guess the motivation behind that to be that you have "seen" professional art of a quality that wasn't all that good or was easily attainable by your persona and not at all mystifying.
I believe you could easily find an answer in the link above, you practise drawing than you are a student of the arts, that simple. You make money from it then you are professional artist.
The whole matter of good art and thus good artistry is an entirely philosophical one and is hard to discuss if you don't take verbal communication seriously. No offense this time, I just hope you'll make a clear underlineable point sometime.

Even the study of the study of arts is an art in that it requires training and finesse and insight.

And thanks for your compliment, but I'm quite sure my work doesn't deserve fans, touched nonetheless.:) Hope you read it all. (and that I didn't skip anything)

NOOB!
05-08-2005, 01:22 PM
lol,but all the other people that qouted me understood it quite cleary,and u understand me cleary too,u just didn't agree with my point,thats why u attacked my spelling,i see this on loads of forums.just admit ur just being a bit uptight lol.

don't worry,i luv u too :twisted: hehehahaha i was just kiddin about losing a fan,just wanted to see how u would react :buttrock: :applause:

anyways i had my jog! and i'm over it.

i've made my point and still stick by it.


p.s. i don't TRY to be funny,its my nature.and people did agree with my point,so i say its valid.

jmBoekestein
05-08-2005, 02:24 PM
Good enough, just demonstrates your incapacity to understand my pov. The manner in which you outline your, well, pov is somewhat shallow and limited. Whatever youthink you're saying with it, it takes as much as this.

"I dunno if you guys understand this, but you're an artist to me if you look like one. or if you do art 'n stuff"

NOOB!
05-08-2005, 02:32 PM
jm,u know exactly what i mean,and if my point comes across shallow to u,theres nothing i can do about it,theres no use being all defensive.


its my point of view,u don't have to agree with it.Ur constantly trying to put the message across that

*this guy doesn't know a thing,he is wrong wrong wrong*

and if u've read anything after that post,u would have realised that eparts didn't even mean to ask that question in the first place.

his question was infact,how do u know when ure a PROFESSIONAL ARTIST.

its been cleared up.so whatever ur saying comes across as *i'm gunna win this argument with NOOB!,i will have the last say*

well i'm quite done with this,kinda frustrated now,so i'm gonna go work on sumthin else.

jmBoekestein
05-08-2005, 03:21 PM
this is funny, I believe I answered on what I think of that.

edit:I still think this shouldn't be the point. But since it's solved why not go to the riddle of why the word artist is so wildly misplaced or has so many reasons, it might not end up anywhere useful, but would clarify the need for this title perhaps. Anyway, I will win the argument if you start argueing about the arguments to that, because philosophy dictates proper and clear communication, and that my friend is what we're not having. In the whole perspective of this thread too I think, LOL. Eat that.:D

ThirdEye
05-08-2005, 03:43 PM
This is a very tough subject, involving both subjective and objective. What is art?

To me art is something original, creative and showing sensitivity. But maybe your definition is totally different.


What's an artist? Does the audience response matter?

In a way it does, in another it doesn't. Dostojievski wrote his masterpieces for food and in a rush, there are some similarities with the story of Van Gogh someone else already mentioned. Britney Spears sells a ton of cd's, does that make her a good artist? She wouldn't even deserve to be called an artist imho. Someone else could tell she's better than anyone else because she sells more than anyone else. But here i could tell him she will follow the end of East 17 and all that premade crap, while Prokofiev's work for example will stay in music history for good.

In the end who cares, it's just another label in a world full of labels and people trying to give you one.

Per-Anders
05-08-2005, 05:59 PM
um... if the original point was who can call themselves a professional artist, then surely that's very easy to define. anyone who's profession is in the creation of art. if your occupation or career involves being an artist then you are by definition a profesional artist.

i don't really see doctors or bricklayers having such terrible existential angst about what their job title is.

pro·fes·sion


An occupation or career: “One of the highest compliments a child can pay a parent is to choose his or her profession” (Joan Nathan).
An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, that requires considerable training and specialized study.
The body of qualified persons in an occupation or field: members of the teaching profession.


art·ist

One, such as a painter, sculptor, or writer, who is able by virtue of imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic value, especially in the fine arts.
A person whose work shows exceptional creative ability or skill: You are an artist in the kitchen.
One, such as an actor or singer, who works in the performing arts.
One who is adept at an activity, especially one involving trickery or deceit: a con artist.

now if only i could get people to drop the hidden "e" on the end of artist things would be so very much better...

jmBoekestein
05-08-2005, 06:17 PM
i don't really see doctors or bricklayers having such terrible existential angst about what their job title is.


That's because they probably don't deal with abstract concepts everyday, largely theory put to practice. Doctors will be trained to deal with those things or find a more suitable way to express it than people of the creative arts.

Per-Anders
05-08-2005, 06:49 PM
but mathematicians and scientists deal with such abstract concepts on a daily basis, arguably more than artists do, and also have little difficulty with job titles.

it's just artists who seem to be all worried about some label and negative connotations... perhaps the issue is really a "class war", between profesional artists and dilletantes. or a basic paradoxical relationship for those brought up to a rather archaic and twisted view the world as being split into "working class integrity" and a "selfish bourgeoise" and their own chosen profession.

orion 77
05-08-2005, 11:11 PM
when we create something we are being artists, its a description of an act of doing. when you walk down the road are you not a walker?

on the general description i suppose we could say we are artists if we create things everyday and think about creating in our minds.
its much too difficult to pin it down, if we hadnt created art for a month then maybe we have ceased to be artists until we resume the practice.

Tryn
05-09-2005, 12:00 AM
um... if the original point was who can call themselves a professional artist, then surely that's very easy to define. anyone who's profession is in the creation of art. if your occupation or career involves being an artist then you are by definition a profesional artist.

i don't really see doctors or bricklayers having such terrible existential angst about what their job title is.

pro·fes·sion

An occupation or career: “One of the highest compliments a child can pay a parent is to choose his or her profession” (Joan Nathan).
An occupation, such as law, medicine, or engineering, that requires considerable training and specialized study.
The body of qualified persons in an occupation or field: members of the teaching profession.

art·ist


One, such as a painter, sculptor, or writer, who is able by virtue of imagination and talent or skill to create works of aesthetic value, especially in the fine arts.
A person whose work shows exceptional creative ability or skill: You are an artist in the kitchen.
One, such as an actor or singer, who works in the performing arts.
One who is adept at an activity, especially one involving trickery or deceit: a con artist.
now if only i could get people to drop the hidden "e" on the end of artist things would be so very much better...

Quoted for agreement. I'm an artist. If people ask me what I do, I tell them (currently) I'm a student in this field, if only because of common misconceptions about 'art'. You tell someone you're an artist, and they'll automatically begin thinking of one of the more traditional mediums - but I don't see how calling yourself an artist is pretentious, and waiting on someone else to consider what you do 'art' before you feel validated is a sure recipe for depression. To quote Nike, 'just do it'.

jmBoekestein
05-09-2005, 12:00 AM
but mathematicians and scientists deal with such abstract concepts on a daily basis, arguably more than artists do, and also have little difficulty with job titles.

it's just artists who seem to be all worried about some label and negative connotations... perhaps the issue is really a "class war", between profesional artists and dilletantes. or a basic paradoxical relationship for those brought up to a rather archaic and twisted view the world as being split into "working class integrity" and a "selfish bourgeoise" and their own chosen profession.

Allthough I completely agree with your view here, I actually meant the abstracts of emotive nature and the nature in which we humans experience things. :wise:And I denote you as humans for I, as a cultural omnivore, am far above such squables and frenzies. Just kidding.

MrGrinch
05-09-2005, 12:51 AM
I second the opinion that some have expressed here, that you're only really an "Artist" when people start calling you that. Personally I avoid the term artist in relation to my own drawings, I think it sounds pretentious. Possibly I'm just annoyed at all the rather pretentious people out there who call themselves "Artistes", and are really only in love with the lifestyle.
The definition should definately be made between those who create "Art" and those who create illustration for commercial use. I get very annoyed when people brush off commercial art as being less valid and worth recognition than a yellow paint stripe on a pink canvas that represents the gods know what. Mind you, that's my personal frustration as a commercial artist. I use the term artist loosely, and only coupled with a prefix such as "concept artist" to describe my own proffession. Unfortunately I'm yet to find a good word for someone who doesnt actually paint, but sketches. I've been labeled a "drawer" for most of my life, much to my annoyance.

lulaassassina
05-09-2005, 12:57 AM
Artist? I do. :D

Squibbit
05-09-2005, 01:05 AM
Artist? I don't.

I just do stuff and sometimes people like it, but
I really wouldn't go about calling it art, goodness no.

Gord-MacDonald
05-09-2005, 03:11 AM
The 'work' is way more important than the label.

Gord

jmBoekestein
05-09-2005, 03:39 PM
But...what if the label has a million bucks written on it...:wise:...what then? What is your work worth?

cha0t1c1
05-09-2005, 05:38 PM
come on JM... you're really stretching this argument thin...

people agreed on one opinion others on the other, is digressing in your nature ;)

I see that you love arguments...That's fine when the response is immediate but it takes hours for a response for your questions, points, or argument...

:twisted:

ashakarc
05-09-2005, 06:16 PM
come on JM... you're really stretching this argument thin...

people agreed on one opinion others on the other, is digressing in your nature ;)

I see that you love arguments...That's fine when the response is immediate but it takes hours for a response for your questions, points, or argument...

:twisted:
No, I think jm is right. How many people care to go and watch a movie of an unknown director or cast, how many people would buy a book for an unknown author, similarly, how many people would find the work of an unknown artist interesting, let alone buying it. Labeling, may not be a truthful representation of the work's worthiness, but it is the reality out there. Labeling falsely build biases, preying on human nature, that is why mass media providers became billionaires.

Labeling is a tactic more than a strategy, that helps direct motives and desires to use or consume or witness. Some artists stick with one style for a long time for few reasons, considering they are very competent ones, is to be able to get recognized. Which means, self labeling. It is not a bad thing as you see, it is just the way individuals quest for identity in large spatio-temporal groups.

offbeatworlds
05-09-2005, 07:36 PM
Personally, and I don't mean to insult anyone, it's just my opinion, but I think that people take the label of "artist" way to seriously. I mean, say someone asks you what you do. You tell them you paint. And they respond, "oh! you're an artist?". Are you going to say "no, I haven't earned that title yet."? And how do you know if you've earned that title? Hmmm? :shrug:

To me, an artist is someone who is creative, and is able to express that creativity in their artwork, be it photography, painting, sculpting, drawing, whatever. Expressing ideas is what makes a person into an artist, and since most "artists" express their ideas and their creative, then they are fully within their rights to call themselves an artist. No one can take that right away from an artist no matter how much they may hate their work. Some people are just less open than others.

It really is all a matter of opinion, so therefore it up to the artist whether they want that title or not.

I call myself an artist because I am able to express my thoughts and beliefs in a particular medium. I call myself an artist because I have heart in my art. I wouldn't call myself anything else when it came to art, because what I am doing is art.

And one more thing, for all of the people who are too humble to call themselves an art (no offense meant by the way), but if you aren't an "artist" then what are you?

Just my thoughts on the matter...don't mind me.

jmBoekestein
05-09-2005, 07:52 PM
come on JM... you're really stretching this argument thin...

people agreed on one opinion others on the other, is digressing in your nature ;)

I see that you love arguments...That's fine when the response is immediate but it takes hours for a response for your questions, points, or argument...

:twisted:

The fact is not all the arguments are laid out in one neat little pile, I figure you're the kind of person to find something to do and not keep dwindling on philosophy. Or at least not too long. No problem but the fact that you dno't get my point doesn't mean that I'm digrressing, I waited to post that for proof of my actions, Ashakarc has a valid point to that.

I takes hours because matters aren't going to really stay within the confines of one thread's title/subject. A matter may be solved superficialy. The issue itself takes on different forms at different occasions as you said. I'm not at all digressing. Merely looking for a better angle and more realistic conclusions than allready found. The ahem, merely vocabulary one.:surprised:curious:

nineinchneil
05-09-2005, 08:43 PM
i don't believe an artist is one that creates art. mainly because i don't believe art belongs to any one person. artists are people who have to ability to recognize art and beauty in everyday life:
the tailor who has been mending clothes for decades without appreciation. the cat that no matter how many times you scare away, is always persistent enough to come back and scratch through your garbage bags. the rock that everyone kicks around, but has remained on the same block for years. who can claim the artistic merit in these? art is no more ownable than ideas. whatever, i'm probably just being a pretentious ass. . .

jmBoekestein
05-09-2005, 09:00 PM
Amen, just seems you gotta dig deeper don't it. ;)

Kargokultti
05-09-2005, 09:50 PM
Possibly I'm just annoyed at all the rather pretentious people out there who call themselves "Artistes", and are really only in love with the lifestyle.
Those damn beatniks :D

I agree completely. Bohemians just make me cringe.

Gord-MacDonald
05-09-2005, 10:28 PM
But...what if the label has a million bucks written on it...:wise:...what then? What is your work worth?

I guess a million bucks ??? :D HEY - I'll take it!:bounce:

Gord

NOOB!
05-10-2005, 09:10 AM
Personally, and I don't mean to insult anyone, it's just my opinion, but I think that people take the label of "artist" way to seriously. I mean, say someone asks you what you do. You tell them you paint. And they respond, "oh! you're an artist?". Are you going to say "no, I haven't earned that title yet."? And how do you know if you've earned that title? Hmmm? :shrug:

To me, an artist is someone who is creative, and is able to express that creativity in their artwork, be it photography, painting, sculpting, drawing, whatever. Expressing ideas is what makes a person into an artist, and since most "artists" express their ideas and their creative, then they are fully within their rights to call themselves an artist. No one can take that right away from an artist no matter how much they may hate their work. Some people are just less open than others.

It really is all a matter of opinion, so therefore it up to the artist whether they want that title or not.

I call myself an artist because I am able to express my thoughts and beliefs in a particular medium. I call myself an artist because I have heart in my art. I wouldn't call myself anything else when it came to art, because what I am doing is art.

And one more thing, for all of the people who are too humble to call themselves an art (no offense meant by the way), but if you aren't an "artist" then what are you?

Just my thoughts on the matter...don't mind me.

i agree,basically what i said in a more detailed way.

Kargokultti
05-10-2005, 03:12 PM
I'd go so far as to say that those who have very big ideas of what is an artist, ofwhat you should achieve to become one, may not become artists as quickly as the ones who just do their thing and let people call them by what ever title appropriate.

jmBoekestein
05-10-2005, 03:14 PM
Hence vanity has been named a sin in many cultures, it stops you from seeing reality for what it is. But enough of that allready.:)

MKStudios
05-11-2005, 10:59 AM
Interesting topic. When I was in Commercial Art class in high school, the teacher had a huge plaque over her desk and I will never forget what was inscribed on it.

Those who work with their hands are Laborers.
Those who work with their hands and their head are Craftspeople.
Those who work with their hands, their heads and their hearts are Artists.

Now, I don't know about any of the rest of you, but we old farts who have spent way too much time laboring on crap we hate and being crafty at a dead-end career, are more than willing and happy to use our skills to produce something we love. Isn't that worthy of being an artist?

NOOB!
05-11-2005, 07:10 PM
how old is that plaque?

heh.

MKStudios
05-11-2005, 09:53 PM
how old is that plaque?

heh.

Okay - well I paraphrased it to make it PC. But you get the point. :D

Lunatique
05-12-2005, 02:04 AM
MKstudios - Actually that's a lovely quote. Do you know where it originates from? I'd like to add it to the Pearls of Wisdom sticky thread.

Ctrl-Z
05-12-2005, 02:29 AM
I read that same quote on a billboard at a heat exchanger company I worked for a few years ago....

Another one I thought was nice:

Everyone's work, whether it be literature, or music, or architecture or anything else, is always a portrait of oneself.
Samuel Butler

jmBoekestein
05-12-2005, 02:35 AM
Judging by the amount of work that goes into profiling a criminal properly I'd say that's a big over simplification. But it might be true to some degree.

numhal
05-13-2005, 12:15 AM
I think an artist is the successfull person at achieving an accurate expression translation of a thaught, an emotion, or a POV...

I agree with this, no matter what kind of art it is (drawing, painting, musical, cullinary ect.) I think art is an expression of emotion and feeling.

MKStudios
05-13-2005, 05:37 AM
MKstudios - Actually that's a lovely quote. Do you know where it originates from? I'd like to add it to the Pearls of Wisdom sticky thread.


Thanks L! The sign didn't actually give a credit, so I'm not sure exactly where it came from. But it has certainly always been inspirational.

danniesanchez
05-13-2005, 09:36 AM
I call myself an artist. Though in the early stages of them all. Recently seen the light so to speak. I play the guitar, paint, sculpt, draw, graphic design, and 3d stuff. I am student of them all.

Now, how original am i. Not that much. I'm enjoying recreating reality for the moment.

leeyiankun
05-14-2005, 07:11 AM
People who do art with their hearts and beliefs.
Expressing themselves in their work.

There are Artist and there are Artist.. just some of them don't fit some people definition of one, doesn't make them less of an Artist.

Variety, difference, is the basis of human nature.

Denying that, can you still call yourself one who is qualify to judge others?

I think not.

So, IMO, One who can call himself an Artist - is the one who feels he has the right to be called one. Doesn't matter if everyone in the world disagrees with him.
In his personal space, he is still Master supreme. :bounce:

It doesnt' mean that I will agree with the said man on his personal title though.
But it's just a title, why bother with it that much?

How far your personal world goes is judge by how much you accept others.
Same as How much you can shoulder a responsibilty/burden is a measure of your abilities.

Those who goes around judging others are soon to find out how little space their own world has in the end.

CGTalk Moderation
05-14-2005, 07:11 AM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.