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lastchild7
05-05-2005, 05:37 PM
it was bound to happen sooner or later.
http://gamesradar.msn.co.uk/news/default.asp?pagetypeid=2&articleid=35660&subsectionid=1591

sometimes i think that sony allow there games to be pirated because it really sells the system... honestly:scream:

WhiteRabbitObj
05-05-2005, 06:08 PM
I didn't read that article, but I did read a post on Engadget about the same thing... it really doesn't matter if PSP games are pirated as far as the PSP itself goes... it only uses UMD media discs, which cannot be created at home, and Sony tightly controls production of said discs. The crack that has apparently been done on the UMD encryption allows people to dump files off of the discs, but not use them in any way yet. Of course, it will only be a matter of days or a few weeks at most now that that's been done for some of the warez groups to put out working versions for the PC. But pirate PSP games can't sell the system, because they can't be played on the system. People COULD put them on the flash media that the PSP can use, but considering that Flash cards are expensive, this would not be a very viable option when one could just buy the game.

Oh, plus, no one allows games to be pirated to sell systems. Games are where companies make their money, not systems.

XanBob
05-05-2005, 09:34 PM
Hackers are now developing software that will allow the currently-pirated games (which range from 100MB to 500MB in size), along with any future 'rips', to run via the memory stick in a similar fashion.


It was going to happen eventually...
Curse them pirates, they'll ruin the business

Jhonus
05-05-2005, 10:18 PM
It was going to happen eventually...
Curse them pirates, they'll ruin the business

everyone says its going to happen, it does happen, then everyone says its going to ruin the business and it never does.

Ghostscape
05-05-2005, 10:33 PM
everyone says its going to happen, it does happen, then everyone says its going to ruin the business and it never does.

Actually, rampant piracy made the Dreamcast's difficult fight against the PS2 impossible, and wound up killing the system.

Geta-Ve
05-05-2005, 10:59 PM
Actually, rampant piracy made the Dreamcast's difficult fight against the PS2 impossible, and wound up killing the system.

that system was just WAY too easy to play copied games on, seriously WAY WAY too easy.. lol

but psp games that are 100 to 500mb? that doesnt sound right at all.. considering the umds are like 2 or 5gigs.. hrm

Jhonus
05-06-2005, 02:08 AM
Actually, rampant piracy made the Dreamcast's difficult fight against the PS2 impossible, and wound up killing the system.


whatever

http://www.futuregamez.net/special/segaps2/segaps2.html

http://wired-vig.wired.com/news/politics/0,1283,19379,00.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/1145936.stm

Hazdaz
05-06-2005, 02:28 AM
Meh.
It was bound to happen, and It's not gonna do anything to really affect Sony's bottom line. Also while the UMD code being broken is one thing, you just know that some of these inventive hackers are next going to find a way to let the PSP run these cracked games off the memory card. Since UMB drives are not accessable, they will always find a way around stuff like that.

I actually think Sony could make a killing if they came out with a UMD recordable drive and sold it as a ccomputer preipheral. These pirates are going to crack your games anyways, ya might as well make some money off of them by selling them the UMD drive and UMD media. And it could be used in many other MP3/digital camara/PDA type of devices too.

Heber
05-06-2005, 02:32 AM
that system was just WAY too easy to play copied games on, seriously WAY WAY too easy.. lol

but psp games that are 100 to 500mb? that doesnt sound right at all.. considering the umds are like 2 or 5gigs.. hrm


its 1.8 gig capacity actually, but that doesnt mean each game is going to use all of that space , so anywhere from 0-1.8gb is believable , and they are just stating the current pirated games are at of that size.

toonman
05-06-2005, 03:24 PM
Curse them pirates, they'll ruin the business

Even thought they might seem like the obvious party to blame, I think the blame should fall on the people buying such games. If there weren't any buyers for those products, there would be no reason to produce them, and piracy would stop. However, the problem is much more complex than that. It all comes down to world economics. "Poor" countries have a HUGE piracy industry, and this is completely driven by the fact that salaries there for the average worker are extremely low.

Example... say you have Jon here, and he's got two kids. He lives in some latin american country, and makes a slightly-below-regular salary. He managed to get his hands on a second-hand PSP2 for his kids. But now he learns that the games come in discs, and he's gotta get them separately. He goes to a store, and he finds out each game costs $50 US average!! Now he's worried... but then a friend tells him about this local market where he can get his PSP2 modded to read copied games (that's the word... copied, not pirate), and they only cost $10 US average... now he thinks about either buying the original games, or getting clothes for his family. He turns around and looks at his 6-year old kid, with that "this game rocks!!" look on his face looking at all the games he'd love to have. He's a very good boy, and works hard at school. I guess you can all see that this is defintely a no-brainer... and there you go. A rampant and proftable industry. Add to this the fact that most of these businesses are run by corrupt politicians at the high level, and then you have an "illegally regulated illegal business". I'm not justifying anything, just explaining how it works.

And I'm a latin american, and a father. Believe me, that's how the story goes (fortunately, I'm a few of the lucky ones who can afford to buy its XBox games, CD's and DVD's legally).

Just my $0.02

Stormy151
05-06-2005, 07:46 PM
So he buys his kids a PSP, but when it comes time to buy the games it's THEN he's forced to choose between buying games or clothes for his family?

archerx
05-06-2005, 08:02 PM
he said -second hand- psp...

its like that in 3rd world countries, for example in honduras, san pedro sula anyways its impossible to find legal computer games for sale, and a few stores sell illegal copies but even those are hard to find!
also they sell ps2s modded and sell copied games, but you do have an option to buy legal games but they will cost you like $80 and minimum wage is like around $100 and you're lucky to be making more then $1500 a month... but life is cheap there, just not technology or games...

victor throe
05-06-2005, 09:21 PM
poverty is a pathetic excuse. you dont need computer games to survive.


if you truly are hard up, stop wasting your money on material junk and put your saving in a bank or pay for an education and move your ass out of the slums.
on the flipside, fewer people would buy/download pirated software if they didnt feel so shafted by the publishers. how many of us have paid 40 just to find the game is a re-dressed version of a game you already have or just downright crap.

gran tourismo

Geta-Ve
05-06-2005, 10:20 PM
its 1.8 gig capacity actually, but that doesnt mean each game is going to use all of that space , so anywhere from 0-1.8gb is believable , and they are just stating the current pirated games are at of that size.

right right, my bad! :p

Though which game isnt taking full advantage of the 1.8gigs? All the games from what ive seen look pretty impressive.. :shrug:

Hazdaz
05-07-2005, 02:39 AM
right right, my bad! :p

Though which game isnt taking full advantage of the 1.8gigs? All the games from what ive seen look pretty impressive.. :shrug:

I would be willing to bet that a VAST majority of the PSP games aren't even close to filling 1/2 the 1.8 GB discs... hell, I bet the vast majority of XB or PS2 games don't come close to filling their discs... and both home console systems are much more graphically intensive (and thus larger in size) than a portable system like the PSP.

1.8 GBs is a huge amount of space for a game - and really the real reason they went for the UMD standard was for movie storage (and ironically, re-encoded movies just barely fit on the discs).

Kion
05-07-2005, 06:09 AM
I bet the vast majority of XB or PS2 games don't come close to filling their discs

Thats not neccesarily true, most Xbox and PS2 come close to filling a DVD. Some Xbox games have gone dual layered Gran tourismo is Daul Layered. I think coolest thing with a cracked psp is being able to run your own code, it would allow for anyone to make a game and custom apps.

XanBob
05-07-2005, 10:39 AM
I think coolest thing with a cracked psp is being able to run your own code
There's nothing wrong with that, I'm al for it...
However, when you've worked on a title for months or years, it really hurts when you see it being distributed for nothing online or even worse, being sold by people who acquired it illegaly. It just isn't fair.
As far as the cost of such consoles and games in countries with less resources... I think people should really prioritize what to spend their money on. But I guess it's all relative to the situation one's in.
My 0.01

dotTom
05-07-2005, 11:16 AM
There's nothing wrong with that, I'm al for it...
However, when you've worked on a title for months or years, it really hurts when you see it being distributed for nothing online or even worse, being sold by people who acquired it illegaly. It just isn't fair.
As far as the cost of such consoles and games in countries with less resources... I think people should really prioritize what to spend their money on. But I guess it's all relative to the situation one's in.
My 0.01

Couldn't agree more about your point on "prioritization". This very argument was made over in the Maya forums where some folks where pretty much saying that as "starving artists" it was OK for them to rip off Maya - like Alias somehow owed it to them. Needless to say most of folks posting these sentiments wheren't pulling down a regular wage (in other words - bedroom surfers).

Hopefully if/when the pirates on CGTalk have their own jobs in digital content creation and are paying their own bills then they'll take a slightly different point of view.

victor throe
05-07-2005, 12:02 PM
without piracy of 3d apps, the art form would have progressed at a much slower rate. this is even more apparent in progs such as photoshop and painter.

thankfully, student prices are now ridiculously cheap(80 for max7) and southampton institute even buy 3DSmax for their students to keep and use at home.

daedalu$
05-07-2005, 01:29 PM
It's easy for you to say "If you don't have money, don't play games.". I wonder how you would act if you were in that situation...:wise:

Hazdaz
05-07-2005, 01:39 PM
I knew this would eventually turn into another piracy thread, so here are my comments on that...

... It is a fairly well known fact that certain programs in the past have had no copy protection (or horribly weak copy protection) to help those programs become standards. AutoCAD and Windows 3.1 are both examples of this... back in the day, both of these applications were "purposefully" easily pirated to bring about a much wider acceptance and create a much wider user base for each. At the time (I am talking about back in the DOS days) AutoCAD NEEDED people trained in the software, and the only way to do that was turn it's back on the practice of piracy. Because of that, it is basically 'the standard' CAD application today - having near 80% control of some markets.

Windows 3.1 is not much different. Back in the day, it actually had competition in the form of a superior operating system... called OS/2. One of the major reasons (and MS would NEVER admit it) that Windows 3.1 won the battle of operating supremecy is that 3.1 was ridiculiously easy to crack, and install on every system in your house or company. With a massive installed base (even if much of it was illegal), software publishers quickly flocked to it (instead of OS/2) making it the king of PC operating systems.

Most of this stuff is completely undocumented and no company will every admit to making their software easy to crack, but piracy does sometimes play a big part in making one product more popular than another. In the case of the PSP, I think one of the pushes for cracking the UMD so quick was that PSP games are ridiculiously expensive for a portable system. You can sometimes find them on sale, but $40 for a game is way too much for most people to accept. You can make the excuse that people should "know better" - and while it is a valid excuse - we ALL know in real life that people always look for the easy way out.

rakmaya
05-07-2005, 02:22 PM
I think you are partially correct. However, in earlier days, regular and new pc owners and small offices had a misinformative view on computers. They failed to recognize the division of hardware and software and most businesses simply accepts a copy of Windows 3.1 because they looked at a different view. Piracy became a major issue when internet began to boom.

However I am not too sure about the AutoCAD, since only high end of the industry and educational institution only required those tools. Aiming for general public at that stage seems unimportant. However, you might be correct about Windows, I think.

201
05-07-2005, 02:41 PM
When I bought the PSP, I was surprised it had a memory slot capable of 1+GB cards... Now, tell me if that's not begging or welcoming piracy for this system.

Nintendo would never do that.

Anyway, NBA Street Showdown rules.

sternio
05-07-2005, 03:13 PM
I heard these games were going to be rated Arrrrghh.


OK I'll shut up now

rakmaya
05-07-2005, 03:18 PM
The increased features can be used for many things, storing files, music, data. The way the tech is evolving it would be foolish for them to limit memory capacity. For games, they have decent level of protection with the umd tech. Their aim is not just the game use but for other purposes. You carry something like that, then why not allow them to store music files etc.. for generic purposes. Even with all the protection, PS2 revenue is far more than GC revenue. It has to do with the way Sony does the business.

victor throe
05-08-2005, 09:15 AM
"It's easy for you to say "If you don't have money, don't play games.". I wonder how you would act if you were in that situation..."

what a stupid remark. games are not food or water. i have been through some very hard times and during those times i went without. being poor just is not a justification for piracy of games.

idiot

daedalu$
05-08-2005, 11:01 AM
I'm not even going to discuss with somebody who isn't mature enough to do so without using insults. :rolleyes:

XanBob
05-08-2005, 12:17 PM
Victor Throe, while you point is valid, there's no need for the language. Please, lets try not to get this thread closed. Edit you post maybe?
Daedalu$, don't forget that people here have been in that situation and many of them still are. Such situation doesn't justify buying/downloading/copying ripped or pirated games or apps. These things are the product of hundreds or even thousands of hours... endless nights at work, where people take pride of what they do and hope to get something in return at the end of this project. We do not get paid overtime, so any extra hours that we do (which are many) we're essentially doing for free, hoping that once the title is released the benefits will be good enough to get a share of the profit. If you don't pay for the product, you're stealing my money and making all my work and efforts a joke.

slaughters
05-08-2005, 12:29 PM
It's easy for you to say "If you don't have money, don't play games.". I wonder how you would act if you were in that situation...:wise:I did not play.

I played card games, board games, read a book from a library, watched TV, listened to the radio, etc.. There are all sorts of very cheap or free entertainments available.

In addition daedalu$, you may actually want to abide by the rules that you agreed too when you signed up for CGTalk.

archerx
05-08-2005, 12:36 PM
there is also lack of avalability in 3rd world countries, for example go to honduras and try and find legal computer games for sale, its almost impossible and while you may find a few games they're usally 10 year old games. thank god i don't live there anymore.

daedalu$
05-08-2005, 12:50 PM
In addition daedalu$, you may actually want to abide by the rules that you agreed too when you signed up for CGTalk.

I'm sorry. Would you please fill me in on which rule I broke? Thanks!

And to stay on topic:
XanBob, being a programmer myself, I completely understand your point. However, considering the conditions some people have to live in, I don't think it's right to denounce them for wanting to enjoy some of the entertainment we can have anytime.

Edit: Slaughters, I think if you read my posts again you will find that I did not encourage anyone to pirate software.

slaughters
05-08-2005, 02:07 PM
I'm sorry. Would you please fill me in on which rule I broke? Thanks!...I'm suprised you need to ask. This part:

"- Piracy... CGTalk does not tolerate any members that, in any way, aid or encourage the use of illegally acquired software."

From the "CGTalk Forum Rules, Guidelines and Policy" section of http://www.cgtalk.com/faq.php?faq=cgtalk_faq#faq_new_faq_item

Crooks and criminals will always hide behind the "I stole it cause I'm too poor to buy it" excuse. I guess I've just met many people who are honest and poor, who would not tolerate such behaivor in their own kids.

victor throe
05-08-2005, 02:12 PM
ah gaw bless


i have more grey hairs than i care to count so when someone tells me im immature, well, thats a blessing.

XanBob
05-08-2005, 02:18 PM
Daedalu$. are you saying that the end justifies the means?... So if I can't afford to buy a dvd because I have bills to pay, it's ok for me to just grab one of a music store and run out the door with it? Tell me, what's the difference between that and downloading it or copying it.
I'm no one to say who should be able to enjoy these luxuries (which is what they are to many of us) but what I can say is that if you can't afford something it doesn't give you the right to steal it just because you want it.
Anyhow, I doubt we'll ever see eye to eye... there's no end to this subject really.

tozz
05-08-2005, 02:26 PM
It's usually the normal reply when you don't really have much to back piracy up with, "I can't afford it, but I should have it anyway". I can't afford a Ferrari, still, it wouldn't justify going to the car stor and steal one. People need to understand the world isn't an utopia.
But in the end, piracy has helped the computer industry evolve more than anyone want to acknowledge, all you need is logic to figure that one out :) But since noone will never do any research to that point, it's really just a personal opinion ;)

XanBob
05-08-2005, 02:33 PM
The reason students are not targeted (at leats to such a degree as a business) when using cracked copies of CG related software is because once they're employed, either setting up their own studio or by another company, they're going to need a real license for such program.
On the other hand, the chances of someone buying an album, dvd or game after they'd downloaded it, listened, watched or played it... are really really slim.

tozz
05-08-2005, 03:17 PM
On the other hand, the chances of someone buying an album, dvd or game after they'd downloaded it, listened, watched or played it... are really really slim.

This is what most people believe, but it's the other way around for alot of people (and those who doesn't still wouldn't have bought it). I've purchased dvd's and cd's for ~$5000 since I was introduced to mp3, and later on vcd/divx/xvid/dvdr. If those technologies never came out I would estimate the amount to be closer to ~$500, why? Because you don't buy stuff if you're not sure it's worth the money.
Same goes for software, I've gotten licenses for almost my entire software suite because of piracy, funny isn't it :)
There is one area I can agree with you on though, and that's games, developers need to find some way to encourage paying customers (even though game sales has increased significantly). Copy protection is not encouragement, it only serves to anger customers and put fuel in the pirate fire. And there's a fact noone can ignore, games have gotten worse and worse during 2000, focus is graphics and sound, and neither makes a good game, so why are they still trying to feed gamers the same old, can't be that hard to pick up :D

akaiwa
05-08-2005, 05:04 PM
I have to agree with Tozz here. Companies always will argue they're losing profit, but there's been plenty of research showing that piracy (in the US' case) doesn't mean they're losing money.

I downloaded R.O.D the TV as it was aired in Japan, and even though I have all the AVIs subtitled, to this day I buy every DVD the very day they come out. I enjoyed Utena so much from the ASF's I got off the internet that I now own all 10 of the legit DVDs, + the movie. The exact same case with plenty of music I listen to.

Of course, this is NOT the case for everyone, but it is for more people then you think. Plenty of people download mp3s to sample an artist, myself included, and more people are buying the songs they like.

I'm not justifying piracy. There's a difference between downloading something to try then to actively purchase a bootleg. I just can't say that studios lose profit from these, in my case (<- remember that part before flaming me). :D

rakmaya
05-08-2005, 06:10 PM
When it comes to games and software, I buy them regardless. The reason might be because I work in this department and don't want to see things as bad. However, in a lot of cases, you can download free versions and try them before you buy. In the case of movies, I watch it in theter and buy the DVD when it comes out. For games, cd protetion and all the piracy protection is necessary for survival. The reason is because unlike software, the intended number of people is large. So creating an opening will make more and more people go the easy way. Not many people including small boys and girls want to download and put things on their computer. So for games, protections are necessary.

However I don't agree with the reason that "you do it when you have no money" That is a lame excuse for anything.

slaughters
05-08-2005, 06:29 PM
There's a difference between downloading something to try then to actively purchase a bootleg.No there is not. Not if you have not been given permission

... I just can't say that studios lose profit from these...Stop saying "Sudios", "Coorporations", "Companies", etc.. That just depersonalizes it to make you feel better about stealing. "Artists" loose money. People loose money.

Giving you the benefit of a doubt, You are one out of 10,000 who buys stuff after "trying it out". I guess thoise artists really didn't need the money from the 9,999 others

Just_David
05-08-2005, 06:35 PM
Just wondering Slaughters, have you ever lost money because of a warez whore?

Para
05-08-2005, 06:40 PM
No there is not. Not if you have not been given permission

Cultural difference. In the USA piracy is a big no-no but here in Europe it's basically way to see what the game is like if there hasn't been a decent demo version of it. It's so common here to use warez as demoing just about anything that everyone just accepts it AS LONG AS people actually buy the things they like. If they don't they'll get flamed so badly that even their ashes will be glowing red for months.

tozz
05-08-2005, 06:40 PM
Stop saying "Sudios", "Coorporations", "Companies", etc.. That just depersonalizes it to make you feel better about stealing. "Artists" loose money. People loose money.

Why, it's true? The reason prices are so high on music and movies are because of unneeded chains in the distribution, and as long as the "fight against piracy" is driven by the companies, people will say companies.

The loosing part isn't a fact, there's no studies nor proof that piracy cost artists money. In theory (using the flawed RIAA method) there is, but if we based society on those crazy non-reality methods of thinking, the world would still be flat and earth would be in the center of the universe.

Also, protection isn't a must, as long as you create games worth the money. GTA:3 for example, 6milion+ sold, why? Perhaps because it's a good game? My opinion is that the gaming industry is flooded right now, everybody wanna make games but nobody want to consider what the customers wants.

Hazdaz
05-08-2005, 09:13 PM
In theroy (using the flawed RIAA method) there is

Yea, like crying wolf about how downloaded songs will kill music sales, yet even during the recession, music sales were up higher than from a few years before the recession!!
:eek:

And yet people are still listening to those fools. :rolleyes:

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