Why have you switched to Lightwave from Max....

[lardbros]

I know i've got this the wrong way round, and some people will think i'm insane. BUT, and it's a BIG HAIRY BUTT.... i changed from a long term 3dsMAX user to lightwave one. I used to enjoy using 3dMAX alot, but when it came to selecting geometry (mainly points) i always thought it was lacking, and hadn't experienced lightwave at all at this point (about 6 yrs ago). I picked up lightwavea couple of yrs ago at uni and instantly liked the text buttons, rather than messing with small indecipherable icons. They do look nice, but i'm damned if i know what an x-form button should look like.

Anyway, i have touched MAX a couple of times since moving to LW, but only because the other people i worked with were using it so i had to aswell. I always enjoyed the editable stack in MAX, and the snapping tools work great too, but i still find my results are better with LW. Not sure why, but my final renders just look finished. Even mates commented on how my work always looks more 'finished' than theirs. I was the only person (i was aware of) using LW in a university where everyone used Maya, MAX, and more so than everything else, XSI.

If you're in the Vis business the snapping tools within MAX are very good to use, mainly because of the sheer amount of options you have. But i think it entirely remains based on how the individual artist likes to work. If they prefer the workflow of LW then that's a personal thing, and it doesn't come down to the latest and greatest options being available, but just simply how capable the artist becomes when in charge of their software choice.

[Ramon]

I picked up lightwavea couple of yrs ago at uni and instantly liked the text buttons, rather than messing with small indecipherable icons. They do look nice, but i'm damned if i know what an x-form button should look like.


Absolutely agree. I love LW's no-nonsense, straight to the point, logical interface.

[slipster70]

I have read and found myself that boolean operations and stenciling operations in Max are often quite difficult to get to work. Most people on the 3ds Max forum simply recommend to stay away from them. In LW, booleans and drilling seem to work over 95% of the time.

The edge tools in Max though are nice. As are the "snap" tools. And the instancing. But LW's modeler just seems faster to me. And you seem to have more control.

[biliousfrog]

I know i've got this the wrong way round, and some people will think i'm insane.

You've not got it the wrong way round....I'm asking the same thing in the Max forums but why they moved over to Max from Lightwave.....I'm not sure that anyone's answered yet;)

[lardbros]

You've not got it the wrong way round....I'm asking the same thing in the Max forums but why they moved over to Max from Lightwave....

Oh yeah, of course i haven't... i was in a rush when i replied and must have read it wrong. Quite an interesting thread actually... i think i'll pop my head into the MAX forum to see what they say too. Hmmm. :D

[telamon]

upgrade cost was my PITA with Max.

[MattClary]

I'm currently setting up a visualisation business & have been asked (by the guys in suits)

What "guys in suits" are you referring to? And what is their vested interest in what app you use?

[imashination]

What "guys in suits" are you referring to? And what is their vested interest in what app you use?

I would imagine he has to justify the cost of buying new software to the people that hold the purse.

[coremi]

CAD tools, seems to have great snaping tools, still pretty expensive plugin, not as expensive as 3DSmax... :D

[blaXX++]

well i am a vivid max user, havent got any books or courses to back me up so im a internet self learner

so im taking certificate 4 in multimedia so part of it is 3d work. they use lightwave at school, so now i have no choice

i use both still, getting quite good at both, but i wanna start on rigging and a little bit of animation soon, maybe on both softwares.

lightwave is great for its modeler and layout programs, very easy to keep track of everything and very easy to make advanced effects

but max gets more detailed and you can really fine tune everything, a lot more options

ive learned to live with both, and i think the more i know about both the better ill get (3d artist is what i am wanting for the future)

even getting a little maya in there for extra animation experience would be great!

[biliousfrog]

Thanks everyone so far.

Yeah, "guys in suits".....despite being able to choose any software/hardware that I want I need to give reasons why I have chosen "X" over "Z".
The CFO has had a little experience with Max, Maya, XSI & C4D & would like to know why I'm not using the "industry standard architectural visualisation software" rather than a "cheap, unknown bit of software designed for TV":rolleyes:

I could just point out that the reason why they prefererred my renders over the other's in the first place is that I'm using a tool designed for TV & film rather than an engineering app with a renderer....Or maybe that I'm not trying to create a 101% accurate model of the building but concentrating on a nice visual that looks accurate & will impress.....Or that rather than spending several months saving up for 3ds max & many more to learn it, It took just one month to buy Lightwave & a few more to learn how to use it.........I won't go on, this is not what I wanted to start. I really don't want a discussion on what's better ( & I'm sure that no one else does either)

All I wanted to know was why you've changed software...employment?, better tools?, faster workflow?, price?......... how has it affected your work?....... do you still use your old app.......& are you glad that you changed/would you go back to your old one?

[Orkman]

I dunno, but these guys fricken rock at previs stuff. This may help answer the "cheap, software for TV" comment.
http://www.mir-visuals.com/arkitektur01.htm

[c-g]

Yeah, "guys in suits".....despite being able to choose any software/hardware that I want I need to give reasons why I have chosen "X" over "Z".

That sounds like you need to be the one to answer instead of a bunch of people here.

[Locutus]

That sounds like you need to be the one to answer instead of a bunch of people here.
Agreed.
Just l said in the exact same thread in the Max forum, people will use the tools that will get the job done. 3D apps are just tools.
No offense to you, but what is the point in this discussion? It's like asking why have you switched from "Brand A No. 2 Pencil" to "Brand B No. 2 Pencil". If I'm not seeing it please enlighten me.
All 3D apps have their strengths and weakness and one apps weakness to one person is a strength to another. It is up to you to find out for yourself what app works best for you by trying them out.
Sorry if I come across as abrasive.

[Kid-Mesh]

Max was my first love :love:

What I really liked about Lightwave was modeler and still do. But in the end their just tools, find what you do best with each and either try to integrate or make a slow transition the one you want.

But I truly endorse Lightwave :thumbsup:

[richcz3]

The point of this discussion is quite clear to me. Throw in the word "Suits" and letters "CFO" and its about Cost of operations and Accountability.
When you pay the checks out of your own pocket for a pipeline that's when you realize it's not a question of use what works or use the industry standard. What will MAX or Maya cost over 4 years compared to Lightwave. Have the CFO run a spreadsheet for MAX, Maya, and Lightwave. Compare the yearly cost and upgrade cycle charges. Throw in the licenses for the plugins and be sure to include the render solutions. If he's still not pursuaded, then your best (safest) bet is to go with his suggestions.

As far as industrial visualization goes I do see more companies using Max and Maya but as others have posted, there is some impressive work done with Lightwave. If anything I feel like this inquiry is looking for a vote of confidence in Lightwave to do the job.

Keep in mind when using programs like PolyTrans and Deep Exploration. If you are dealing with complex models, sometimes you'll need clean up work. Something to consider when deadlines are looming.

[biliousfrog]

[edit] Thanks Rich Cabrera, you've kinda got it. I'm not looking for a vote of confidence, in fact I had hoped to have more response from the Max community. I'm genuinely interested in hearing why people have swapped apps & their reasons for it....I think that it could help people (including myself) to be more open to other apps



I know that they're just tools, some work better than others for certain jobs though.....HB pencil, 4H pencil, 6B pencil.......

I'm not after what's best, I'm curious to hear what obsticles people have come across during the transition & how long it has taken to swap.

I bought an educational version of Max 2.5 a few years ago (when v.3 was released) & I really struggled with it, Mostly because I still hadn't progressed past beginner level with 3d in general & also because I was used to Lightwave. This is just a personal thing & something that I didn't want to mention for fear of influencing people but here's my views:
I actually think that 3ds max is a much more complex program, it is more difficult to learn & is very un-user friendly in it's appearance & it's tools...BUT....I think that it is probably a much more powerful app than Lightwave. I feel that I can model very quickly in LW & in many cases I can start modelling before I even know what to model....it is very artist friendly, I found with Max that I needed to plan everything from start to finish before even opening the software so that I knew what tool to use & how it would affect everything else.

Because of this I personally think that Lightwave will be easier to learn for people trained in other software, Max, Maya, Softimage...whatever, but Max...well, I'm sure that it will be ok for people that have used Maya, softimage etc but anyone used to LW will really struggle at first.

I might be very, very wrong but I would be interested to hear about anyones experiences with swapping apps, their similarities & differences. I hope that has helped you all to understand what this thread is about & it might even spawn some interesting stories from people's employment/education history.

[lardbros]

I found with Max that I needed to plan everything from start to finish before even opening the software so that I knew what tool to use & how it would affect everything else.


Going to have to disagree slightly with you there. I know you're just putting down your personal opinion, so it's not disagreeing, just that my experience is the opposite. When i started using lightwave in verion 6, i found it trickier to get it to do what i had easily acheived in 3dsMAX.
MAX's operator stack made it so easy to go back and alter a bevel or extrusion, and also keep the remaining geometry intact that you had done since. This, for me, was simple, and easy to deal with. Upon moving to lightwave, i missed this immensely... i couldn't think how modelling could work any other way, but it does.

But my point is that with lightwave, i had to plan, and still do, miles ahead when it comes to modelling. 3dmax lets you off in most respects, with its stack allowing you to even alter the position of Boolean operators after you have changed some things. In lightwave you HAVE to commit to the boolean, and cry if you find out later it was crap.

Still, the way LW works makes forward thinking a must, which is probably a good thing in this industry i guess.

[biliousfrog]

thankyou, that's the kind of experiences that I wanted to hear. After reading that I agree with what you've said & maybe my opinion was a little off....the stack system would of helped me a lot a number of times.

[E_Moelzer]

Hello
I started to do 3d with 3ds DOS and then switched to LW.
I never really got a hang of MAX when it came out. It was to different from the old 3ds, that I liked much more in the way it was organized...
After a few years of working with LW as a hobbyist, I got a job at a MAX- only animation- company here. I thought that MAX was horrible even compared to LW5.6 back then.
It was slow and clumbsy and the rendering and modeling was absolutely inferior to LW.
I would surpass the best MAX- modelers there when I was modeling in LW by a factor of 6!
Anyway, I managed to go from a low- level artist there to leader of production within a year, so I think one can say that I kinda got a hang of MAX. I still hated it though.
I would do as much as possible in LW and these things were usually those that would turn out best...
I never liked the modifier- stack. You have and Edit Mesh modifier in it and forget the whole thing anyway.

Now, I know that MAX has evolved a lot since that time, but so has LW.
IMHO they are two very different philosophies and can hardly be compared to each other.
LW is very quick and very instant good looking, which is something that works very well for many situations including most of the jobs we have here at MSG.

MAX is a very complex beast as has been said. IMHO it is something for companies that have large budgets and a lot of time. MAX has way more features than LW, IMHO, but personally I prefer a smaller featureset and using this efficiently. The LW- workflow is IMHO a lot faster because of this in most circumstances...
I also think that with MAX you have to specialize more in a certain area. LW is better for generalists...
CU
Elmar

[richcz3]

..MAX is a very complex beast as has been said. IMHO it is something for companies that have large budgets and a lot of time. MAX has way more features than LW, IMHO, but personally I prefer a smaller featureset and using this efficiently. The LW- workflow is IMHO a lot faster because of this in most circumstances...
I also think that with MAX you have to specialize more in a certain area. LW is better for generalists...
CU
Elmar
I tried my hand at learning Max (around v.5) with a very patient friend. I would agree that MAX has more features than LW. Those features come at the expense of increased interface navigation to access all the possible variables which then raises the learning curve. It's like having a 2000 button remote control for the TV. In writing that I also have to keep in mind that Modeler and Layout are two seperate interfaces with minor overlap.

Modelers basic interface still works but the control schemes for essential tools needs to be reworked/enhanced to bring them up to date.
Layouts interface flow needs to be re-evaluated. Its easy to end up with multiple seperate windows taking up valuable work space. A floating or docked window with tabbed selectiosn could be a step in the right direction.

[robin]

I know where you guys are from.

I started on Max then switched to lightwave from hating it. I was probably just curious about it after arguing with the people loving it over this place, hehehe

Then i soon realize that, frankly Lightwave is a lot more faster if you want to get a surface. For me it got a lot to with the weight of the Mesh itself, Lightwave's modeling organisation is a step-by-step problem-solving procedure.

There's just Stuff there that helped me in Max and other apps afterward, especially if you look at organic surface, just by pressing "TAB" you save 4 steps that you would have to do in Max to access meshsmooth in the stack. Its great if you want to solve modeling problem in a finite number of steps. Can't wait for NGon implementation if any.



-R.


.

[telamon]

Hello
I never liked the modifier- stack. You have and Edit Mesh modifier in it and forget the whole thing anyway.

CU
Elmar

I have had a personnal license of max up to R3.1

During this period, I have never met anyone able to me how this stack could be useful for modelling on a daily basis. The same for the boolean operator (I mean the fact that boolean objects keep a sort of construction history). Once you apply edit mesh or mesh select in the stack, all the operations underneath were "frozen". I used to convert all my work into editable mesh.

I hope it has evolved.

[Karmacop]

MAX has way more features than LW ...

Well who's fault is that Elmar? Maybe you should send more of those feature requests to the LW Devs ;)

I'd have to agree with everything you said though. LW is fast and efficient, MAX is slow and complex .. for me anyway. I could never figure out how to actually use Max, it's just so different to LW.

[Emmanuel]

C4D is also a very nice option.
Its compatible with LW, has an excellent and fast raytracing engine, industry support for a lot of different formats, AFAIK it can be compared to Max when it comes to history and non-destructive modeling, and as a LWer You can get a crossgrade for under 1000 bucks.
Any software these days can be customized to look and behave like LW (only better).
Max can be customized to a text only interface, and so can C4D.
I would consider C4D over Max for Your purpose.

[Crocodilian]

I am a "switcher" and still use Max sometimes. Reasons for the switch. . .many.

If you are building an architectural visualization business, you' be wise to think twice about swithcing away from Max-- it _is_ the standar for archtectural visualization, mostly because Autodesk is the publisher of both Autocad and 3DS. . .therefore they play well together.

[lardbros]

I would consider C4D over Max for Your purpose.

Hmmm, not sure a huge amount would agree. I've been entirely unbiased with my view, being a LW fan but clearly saying that 3dMAX has some VERY strong points, but surely choosing C4D over MAX would be an odd choice? And an E minus for the exam, always remember to answer the question! :D :thumbsup:

[Emmanuel]

Well, why ?
I mean, C4D is cheaper than Max, has better tools for visualisation and architectural stuff than LW, a great GI render engine (Finalrender based), it has sniper (something like Fprime)...I really don't see why LW would be a choice in that area anyway, because archtitectural stuff is really only fun if You have a construction history and parametric modeling (making changes in the objects a LOT easier than lightwave where You would basically have to remodel).
The only thing speaking for LW in that discussion is the already existing experience with that software, nothing else.
And sicne the new C4D bundle for LWers comes with a preset GUI that mimics modeler and Layout, it would indeed be a mistake not to consider it.Just beeing objective.

[c-g]

I mean, C4D is cheaper than Max

But that introduces another application that it sounds like no one there is familiar with..so you would have to add a learning curve to everyone no matter how big or small. At least now the original poster could bring coworkers up to speed in LW.

[retinajoy]

Well, why ?
I mean, C4D is cheaper than Max, has better tools for visualisation and architectural stuff than LW...

I disagree. The past year I have used Lightwave mainly for visualisation and have found it a great tool for the job. I was not impressed enough (but still impressed somewhat) with the C4D demo I used; it is a good package and very capable. I am keeping my eye on C4D as software is always changing, but recent months have shown a lot of development on Lightwave. The C4D render has nice options and looks very good too, but the finished renders are still not quite as pleasing to my eyes as Lightwaves. Lightwave with FPrime 1.5 gives Lightwave render quality with the speed and I guess by 8.5, 3rd party shaders will no longer be a problem.

Can't comment on MAX as only played with the demo briefly a long time ago. However, I have seen superb renders from it shown around various galleries online and elsewhere.
:)

[Locutus]

....and thus begins the "app A" is better than "app B" because......... wars.:rolleyes:

As far as Lightwave and Max are concerned, I used them both and enjoy them both. Once you get below the surface, there really aren't many differences between them. I can model just as efficiently in Max as I can in Lightwave, but i suppose it has to do with what is comfortable for you. I can use Lightwwave, 3dsmax, Wings3D, and Silo with no workflow issues at all. However, when I tried Softimage XSI, I didn't feel comfortable with it and consequently my workflow suffered. Does that make Softimage any less of a 3D app? No, it's just not the app for me. It's the same with all other 3D apps. They are just tools and you use the tools that you're most comfortable with. Just because a feature (such as the user interface) in one program doesn't work you, doesn't mean the app isn't going to be perfect for someone else.
Earlier someone said something about being able to model faster in Lightwave than the the people using Max at his job; I think that has less to do with the software and more to do with you just being a better faster modeler using a tool (Lightwave) that suits YOU.
Anyway, everyone here (including me) has alot of opinions about 3D apps, but it really comes down to personal choice and what tool gets the job done for you.

[biliousfrog]

please don't start any wars over preferred software, it's all been quite informative so far, lets keep it that way.:)

Locutus, the "uncomfortable" feeling that you got with Softimage is what has always put me off of trying Max again & it's one of the reasons that I started this thread. As a very experienced user of 3d software, the fact that you find Softimage uncomfortable to work with would be a worry for anyone that employs you if they solely use Softimage. I wouldn't want to emlpoy someone who is very talented & then force them to work in an uncomfortable way as it would, without a doubt harm their creative output but at the same time I don't want to employ only people that can use application "X". I want to try & find out how easy/difficult certain software is to learn & whether it has been worth it.

Many thanks again everyone for your input.

[Locutus]

First, I think you've misinterpreted or misunderstood what I said.
Second, I haven't started any wars over any preferred apps, as I haven't said anything about one app being better than other. Please re-read my post.
My comment was based on the many many threads about this same subject that have cropped up time and again. I apologize if you feel it was out of line.

Anyway, what I'm saying is that people are going to use what ever software works best for them. I never said that I couldn't use Softimage to get a job done if necessary. Given a choice I'm going to go with the 3D app I feel more comfortable using. No big deal, given time I know I would feel the same about XSI as I would any other 3D app I use. Making time to develop a comfort level is the key. I personally haven't used XSI enough (yet) to gain an appreciation for it, but make no mistake, when and if I needed to know Softimage for a job I would know it AND be comfortable with it. It's just another tool.
In fact, I started off with 3dsmax and thought that Lightwave had an idiot UI design. After spending a little time using it I found that it is just as capable for me as 3dsmax was. Some poeple don't get into a 3D app deep enough to make an informed decision about it's usability. They test it out and if it feels too foreign to them they sometimes immediately dismiss it as inferior when in fact it is just a matter of comfort level.

Ultimately, If you "want to try & find out how easy/difficult certain software is to learn & whether it has been worth it", wouldn't it make more sense for you to see first hand by trying them out for yourself, instead of relying on second hand information? If someone wants to know whether a particular app is worth purchasing, they should try it out. Which was my exact point in the first thread on this subject you posted over in the 3dsmax forum.

[richcz3]

From original post
Well the title says it all really. I would like to know why you chose to use Lightwave after using another app, mainly Max (if anyone here has moved from Max of course).

I'm currently setting up a visualisation business & have been asked (by the guys in suits) why I would like to use Lightwave rather than Max & would I consider changing to it....

--
That first part is pretty straight forward for me and I can't see asking for more than than has already been posted. Ultimately these kinds of threads will de-evolve.

When it comes to budgets Lightwave and C4D are probably a small businesses best friend. If you're concerned about market use and looking to hire from a broad range of talent, then look to invest in a more expensive solution. Reading through the various posts I think there is more than enough information to make an educated decision given the variety of angles.

[biliousfrog]

sorry to offend you locutus, I was actually agreeing with you rather than accusing you of starting a war.

I currently travel to work for 30mins, work 10hrs, travel home for 30mins, work another 4hrs + all weekend on this new project....I have very little (read "no") time for learning new software. I cannot be a good judge of how easy Lightwave is to migrate to as I had little experience of other packages before Lightwave which is why I started this thread & the one in the Max forum.
It is odd that in both forums the only one not to like what I am asking is the one that's posted the most....also the only one to bring up any "my software is best" issues. Do not take this personally, but you have already stated in both threads that you don't like this subject...your views have been made very clear, so don't keep posting!:shrug:

It would of been nice to hear more from the Max side but nevermind. I think that it's time to shut this before it gets any further from the original subject. Thankyou everyone for taking time to post, I really appreciate it.

Regards, Steve Bjorck

[magicalstylz]

hey guys i've been reading most of these comments and there is no wrong answer to these. with that said i think that all "3D Artist" should have the capability or at least make a huge effort of adjusting (to different software) when need be. but to give you an answer to your original question , you should justify your software with the results you believe will make the customer happy, at the end of the day if the customer lis satisfied with the work it's not going to matter what software you used.

[grafikdon]

I use both Lightwave and max so it might be hard to offer any meaningful contribution to this thread. Again it depends on what you want to accomplished and let's not forget your 'level of comfort' with the software. I have NEVER modeled in Max...I use Lightwave instead but when it comes to complex character animation...I run to max as long as there is no morph target involved (I just can't get the hang of Max's morph gizmo) that is why you I find myself doing the switcheroo between max and LW.

My current movie is done entirely in Lightwave because of the incompatibility of the cell shaders.

Bottom: line I love those two app with their individual strengths and weaknesses (yup, they but rock and suck in many ways). Before I forget, remember that learning a new app in the middle of production could be counter productive. I tried that and it wasn't the best idea though I am happy I know my way around Max at the moment(the new app).

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