Lighting crit please :)

[robotJAM1]

I think you need to look at shadows for the scene, there doesn't look like there's any in the scene at the moment. Try adding a few to some of the lights. I think the main problem you've got is the lack of contrast in there. Hope that helps.

[simon-s]

Thanks very much for your comments. It looks like you were right...contast was the key!

Here is the revised image with more contast in the scene. I think you'll agree its much better now.

http://www.cgtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70029&stc=1

Thanks again :)

[Andrew W]

OK Si,

Here are my observations.



I don't think the scene's too gloomy, I don't think the lighting is contrasty enough. There's too much ambient light or too much self-illuminated depth fog. Or both?
I'd dial that generic fog right down, that's themain image flattening factor.
The spotlights should cast some lovely hard shadows on the ground and on the machinery.
Are you using proper intensity falloff? If not maybe try it?
The illuminated thingy in the middle of frame could be used as more of a light source.
All of your surfaces seem to be very "lambertian". Try adding some specularity to some of the surfaces to vary the surface qualities. Bump maps would also help.
I'd be tempted to add more visible source lights to create points of interest around the scene.
I'd start with a completely black scene and begin to add lights to pick out the details you like, at the moment the scene feels as if it lacks focus a bit.
Perhaps try a different composition. The ceiling isn't all that interesting and yet it dominates the frame.
That's my 2 pence worth.

Good luck; all the best

Andrew

[simon-s]

Hi Andrew,

Thanks so much for your comments, they were all really helpful.

I have attempted to apply some of your advice to my render (see link)...


http://www.cgtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70033&stc=1

Is this any better??

I have pulled the fog right back and I have used some intensity falloff on all of my lights and it has certainly created more contrast in the image. I am however struggling to get these 'hard shadows' you talk about.

Any suggestions on how to achieve this?

More crit welcome on my re-render!!

Cheers,

Si.

Also, here is a test using the machine as a light source.

http://www.cgtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70034&stc=1

[simon-s]

http://www.cgtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70062&stc=1

Here is the re-worked image- much better I think.

Thanks for all your help:)

[gdimmrt]

OH yeah.. that's way better.

[playmesumch00ns]

I think your composition could use some work. Much of your picture is filled by incidental props that don't really do anything interesting. Try just rendering some flat-shaded images from different angles using different lenses and see if something interesting "happens". The machine in the middle of the room should be the focus of the picture, so try making it bigger in frame. Maybe try doing some renders from low down looking up with a wide-angle lens to make the machine seem bigger and more impressive. Everything's very rectilinear at the moment. Wide a wide angle lens that could help the sense of perspective, but at the moment it all feels very constrained. You could try placing your objects to create lines and shapes in the picture that help the composition.

Similarly for the lighting, the glowing light coming out of the machine is the main focus of the picture, so try switching everything off except that. I think the second to last picture was the most interseting: try using many soft shadowed light sources of slightly varying colours and intensities inside the machine to cast interesting light and shadow on the walls. Then build up the light in the rest of the scene by positioning lights to simulate bounce off the walls etc. Then, if you still need some more light, position your overhead lamps to pick out interesting parts of the rest of the scene such as the yellow thing in the far-right-hand corner, and the encasement of the machine. Don't use any unshadowed lights! And try using physically correct falloff wherever possible.

I agree with what Andrew said about your shading. Everything feels very samey. Start with the machine and paint some bump and specularity textures. Think about the materials it's made of and try to give them some life. Since it's probably mostly metal add some reflections, raytraced if you can afford it.

[simon-s]

Thanks for your comments, it is clear that you know what you're talking about.


Although I do agree with your comments on composition, this is just a test render for an animation scene and so the main focus of the action will not be on the central machine. The factory will be fully working with moving parts and will feature these little guys (see link) whizzing around, undertaking maintenance tasks around the factory.

http://www.cgtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70121&stc=1

I will however start to add some bump, spec and dirt maps to my machines to give it some more depth.

Render time is starting to become an issue now, so adding more lights wont be possible:(

Thanks again :)

[Andrew W]

This is definitely getting much better, and I really like the characters. The thing that bugs me about the back ground now is the large areas of flat samey textured surfaces, especially the walls and floor. I'd suggest using pools of light more than an overall wash of lighting to brak these areas up a bit. Maybe some more bump mapping could be added to add some more detail. At the moment it looks like tiled texturing (which I presume it is). You could try to solve the problem by using fewer more focussed lights perhaps?

Andrew

[simon-s]

Hi Andrew,

Do you think that some brick work textures along with some dirt maps may liven walls up?

Si.

[Andrew W]

Hi Andrew,

Do you think that some brick work textures along with some dirt maps may liven walls up?

Si.

To an extent, but any large flat area that's fairly evenly lit will look a bit dull in my opinion. I think putting some more broken up lighting in will help just as much as changing the texture, though that is a good idea as well.

A

[jeremybirn]

I don't think it needs more color - keeping it drab will help the characters pop out better. Of course the lights you attach to the characters might add some color here and there, with their yellow rockets...

Don't let areas like the screen-left side happen - the half-hidden light just looks slopping, and the edge of the foreground object is just the same tone as the background behind it, no definition. I agree with everyone else that you need to break it up and give it more variety - here's a quick airbrush job:

http://www.cgtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70180&stc=1

[Wiro]

Great to see the progress. Some good suggestions too and I especially aggree with Jeremy's.
The lights should be intenser but fall off way faster, keeping the room corners very dark but with bright pools of light. If you are already using inverse square falloff, try reducing the range and increase the intensity.
With varying intensities in the pools of light you can guide the eye towards the cylinder thing in the middle. I also think the foreground objects should only be suggested by light.

Here's a test I did. Flat materials only. There are 5 lights, the 3 lamps, the cylinder and a rimlight out of frame to the right. The lamps are tinted slightly yellowgreen, the cylinder blue.

The lamps obviously illuminate the room but stop short of the corners. The right lamp's falloff is a little shorter as well so the building thing on the left is kept a bit darker.
The rimlight gives the foreground objects shape but still keeps them dark.

If you model more bevels into your objects and use specular materials, they'll catch highlights which again suggest form even when in darkness. Add in some specular-only lights to accentuate.

You say you can't add more lights because rendertimes are slow. Unfortunately indoor lighting will always require lots of lights, especially if not using GI.

My example isn't perfect or by any means the way, only a suggestion. Hope it helps.

Wiro

[simon-s]

Thanks so much...its really good of you both to take the time to steer me in the right direction :)

This is my first semi-realistic project I have undertaken ( I usually work on 3d cartoony stuff ) and this is turning out to be a real challenge. But thanks to you guys I am starting to understand a little more about staging my scene with lighting, something which I have never spent the time on before.

Thanks for opening my eyes!!

Heres the next render of my scene in which I have varied the intesity falloff (which has achieved some degree of darkness in the corners) , softened the colour of the lights and added a fill light which is focused on the central machine. The blue light beaming from the machine adds some variation in colour and I am pleased with the darker foreground...

However I still feel that it looks wrong. ( I know I havn't added any more texture maps yet, maybe thats the problem. But I have rendered the scene without any textures whatsoever, and it still looks wrong).

Rendertime is getting a bit silly now too...even without the addition of my army of 50 or so robots!!

Am I along the right lines?

http://www.cgtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70199&stc=1

Thanks again! :thumbsup:

[Wiro]

Wow, that's a great improvement! May I ask what the rendertimes are and what PC specs you have?

I also wanted to add my suggestions aren't neccesarily realistic. I was describing how to make the scene more moody and evocative but in reality the corners indeed wouldn't come out that dark. Depends what you're going for really.

Keep it up!

Wiro

[playmesumch00ns]

That's definitely coming on.

I think the floor especially still feels a bit flat, those lights on the ceiling could be casting pools of light to liven it up a bit. Also don't feel constrained to put them in a regular pattern, just put them wherever they look best, then worry about the realism of it.

It's also hard to tell where that shadow on the right-hand wall is coming from. It helps to ground the objects against the wall, but without a definite source it's a bit weird.

You mentioned this is for an animation. Have you storyboarded it yet? If not I'd do that a.s.ap. It's very hard to light something to make it look good from all angles, so I'd consider setting up your cameras for the animation and seeing what areas you need to concentrate on the most when designing a general lighting rig.

[simon-s]

Hi wiro,

I currently using an AMD Athlon 1.74 GHz processor with 768 MB of RAM. At this point the rendertime is about 5 mins, which I know isn't a lot for a single frame render; but I have over 1 minute of animation to produce in around 7 weeks (Including rendering, editing and audio production) so you can see my concerns.

Maybe it would be easier to render my character animation separatly and composite it on the BG later??

Also, I understand that realistic lighting doesn't happen like the example you showed me; but it certainly does enhance the mood!

Good job!

Thanks for all your help :)

[simon-s]

Hi Playmesumch00ns,

I do have the animation fully storyboarded, and the action happens pretty much all over the factory. I did wonder about parenting a low level light to the camera? I know this may not be the most conventional way of doing things, but if that light doesnt create shadows or affect spec, it may just help to stage the action a little better when the characters are in the darker areas of the factory.

As for the flat looking floor... The factory is around 50m long, so the shot you have seen is pretty high up. (These are some BIG machines) Most of the action will take place a lot closer to the floor; where the bump and spec textures will be more apparent.

I have also just finished my final robot for the anim ( I posted him on the WIP forum but no-one has comment as yet).

Does anyone have any comments on how to improve the texturing?

Crit welcome!!

http://www.cgtalk.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70201&stc=1

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