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stuh505
04-29-2005, 02:53 AM
There are so many impressive Vue scenes filled with complex forestry that looks simply awesome...

I downloaded the demo of view to mess around with. I didn't really like the interface much...and thought to myself, why do I need Vue? I can already make plants in XFrog, I can compose them and scatter them in Maya...what's so special about Vue? Why is it that everyone makes the amazing natural scenes in Vue instead of other programs?

I had a downloaded a free tree .obj to play around with in Vue. I decided to try to create some complex plant scenes in Maya but soon realized that wasn't going to happen, because loading even that 1 tree I was using in Vue crashed Maya. But it didn't crash Vue...

I see people composing scenes with Vue that have hundreds or thousands of high poly trees...my first thought is that they must have more memory than I...but how is it that Vue seems to handle larger scenes so much better?

And also, is that the major reason why you guys use Vue, or is it more for things like the ability to animate forestry or have easy setup of atmosphere and volume lights and stuff. Just curious what makes this program appealing so I can consider it.

Wabe
04-29-2005, 06:52 AM
Ok, my pov.

I worked as a professional 3D animator in the early days of 3D - mid 80s last century to early 90s. A lot of reasons i gave that up and am happy now to work as a "normal" designer these days. And beta tester for Vue.

For me 3D these days is just a hobby, nothing more. What i love in Vue is the absolute ease of use there. I don't think that there is another software around that allows me to create beautiful scenes so easily. And on such a high level - i know there is much better software available, but not for that price.

Anyway, the memory management. What you refer to is the new Ecosystem principle of Vue Infinite. Is there a demo out yet? I don't think so. So maybe you looked into another version of Vue that does not have that. Ecosystem is a method to populate objects (whatever you want) with other objects. The method is to use instances internally so that they have to deal with only representations of the final amount of models in a scene. Of course there are a lot of methods to vary these objecs. In all thinkable ways. Even in textures to make it look more complex.

I am always (again) impressed what can be done in this little piece of software. And with Ecosystem we only see the beginning right now. There are so many things that can be done and nobody has so far.

DorisDay
04-29-2005, 07:15 AM
Yeah I think Wabes right. Eco-system is fantastic & I'm pretty sure thats what you've seen, V5I doesn't have a demo yet so I imagine you have Vue Espirit (no Eco-system :sad: )

Eco-system is basically adding geometry to materials, then applying that material to other geometry...sounds mad, but actually the principle is quite simple. You can apply these objects (density,scale etc) using grayscale maps to...

stuh505
04-29-2005, 01:33 PM
It seems that you have both described EcoSystem very differently...the spawning duplicates and holding a reference makes sense to me, the material description doesn't!

Anyway, I haven't had the chance to try infinite...I was just talking about the professional demo.

I just look at the kind of advice that I'm seeing for Vue:

http://www.thomaskrahn.com/Images/Tutorials/The%20Making%20of%20Curaya%20-%20The%20Background.jpg

So, he just throws an extra 100 high poly trees into the background before even getting started with the REAL geometry? (from http://www.thomaskrahn.com/)

or how about this one. I figured he just rendered in layers and did some photoshoping. NOPE, he just renders it all from one big scene in vue:

http://www.thomaskrahn.com/Images/Tutorials/The%20Making%20of%20Quebec/7-%20Quebec.jpg

I just don't comprehend how this is possible, when I kill my computer trying to load 1 or 2 trees into maya

maybe it's just me, does vue seem to handle about the same as other applications to you guys?

Wabe
04-29-2005, 01:49 PM
The problem here is that Infinite - with the Ecosystem - uses a totally different concept. As i said, instead of loading in every geometry itself it works with instances for the models and keeps the memory low.

I am on a Mac G4 768 MHz with 1 GB RAM and did a scene with 18000 trees (imported Poser firs to be more precise) and 1000 houses to form a village. In total more than 1 billion polygons IN THEORY. No problem, worked fine here.

The old tutorials does not help for that so you can't really mix the versions. Too bad that there is no Infinite demo out yet. But don't forget, Infinite is out only for a little over a month now.

BTW, the description Buckie is very correct, better than mine. Maybe has to do with my not so good English.

stuh505
04-29-2005, 06:24 PM
Ok, but I'm not talking about Infinite!

Perhaps the vue trees are stored in a more efficient way than simple geometry which allows them to have more of them in one scene at a time, ie, by storing only the geometry for 1 branch and then memorizing transformations of that branch etc..

Would people say this is correct? IE, are Vue plants significantly more memory efficient than obj imported plants?

Mike.H
04-30-2005, 10:22 AM
to answer your short question with an even shorter answer: Yes. :)

richcz3
04-30-2005, 06:47 PM
Vue 5 Infinite is a powerful program but like anything else, it is easy to get into, yet some what of a chore to master. There really aren't as many tutorials available as there are for other 3D apps (especially for EcoSystem) so you'll have to want to experiment with the few tutorials there are and combine other features.

The EcoSystem is an amazing part of Infinate that can not be understated. Keep in mind that many of the impressive images created in Vue include creative uses of Alpha planes. There are several tutorials on creating and using Alpha planes to give the perfect illusion of populated expanses without killing ones render times.

Wabe
05-02-2005, 06:51 AM
Ok, you are not talking about Infinite. The only one i know who ever said he used thousands of trees in an image is ThomasKrahn. He used alpha planes when i remember it right. He rendered trees in Vue with mask and used those as alpha planes again in more complex scenes. But i could be wrong.

Anyway, there is no miracle. I had not many problems to use up to hundred trees in older Vue versions. Of course Vue internal trees are much more memory efficient than imported ones. That has to do with the combination of geometry and texturing. Leaves for example in Vue trees are textures "only". and not modelled leaf by leaf as for example in XFrog or TreePro. Same with little twigs. So the amount of polygons is much lower than it is with an imported XFrog/TreePro tree.

I have therefore often used a mixture. Vue trees for the backgrounds and a TreePro one for the foreground.

stuh505
05-03-2005, 03:59 AM
Leaves for example in Vue trees are textures "only". and not modelled leaf by leaf as for example in XFrog or TreePro. Same with little twigs. So the amount of polygons is much lower than it is with an imported XFrog/TreePro tree.


Ah, ok. This answers my question...basically I wanted to know if there were nay fundamental differences in Scene modelling using Vue (as opposed to just presets and custom settings to speed up workflow) that make it more efficient than, say, Maya.

I can see how with clever design, such a program could probably store something like 90% more complex scenes, if for instance each tree used 90% of the same data and then 10% to make it look distinct. But they probably donm't go that far

Wabe
05-03-2005, 06:25 AM
Well, i don't have Maya. Only worked with the forerunners like TDI etc. And to me as a now hobbyist the interface and workflow is very efficient. I get quickly what i want. And find the interface very intuitive.

Ok, i can imagine some improvements but this is a question of time and does not limit me too much.

One other thing is that we never should lose track about the prices.

Yesterday i read an announcement from e-on that they offer Infinite for a price of $199 to Vue 4 owners now. Which means, if you buy Vue 4 for $69 first a complete price $267. Not too bad i would say!

Wabe
05-03-2005, 06:56 AM
Oh, too bad. This e-on price announcement could be a misinterpretation of their text. I enclose a link to the thread at Renderosity where all this is discussed.

Update price discussion at Renderosity (ttp://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12368&Form.ShowMessage=2241542)

If that is true that it is a misinterpretation e-on should fire the copywriter. Did a real bad job on that i would say.

Mike.H
05-03-2005, 07:52 AM
the 199us$ price tag is for v4pro users not v4esprit users.

but v5I is easily worth the 599us$ pricetag for people not upgrading from a previous version aswell (in my opinion) itīs still very affordable.

rooktooky
05-06-2005, 11:06 AM
Vue may work okay with it's resident mesh system, but imports above a certain level will fail. This is kinda hard for me because I have to subdivide my projects so many times to look smooth and in some cases Vue just can't import. Also Vue has serious problems with image maps. The higher the resolution the more unstable the program. If you can actually get the mesh inside Vue then it handles geometry very well. You'll just have to use more of the procedurals. I'll be using Vue Infinite for more distant or mechanical scenes from now on.

Kevin Sanderson
05-07-2005, 12:28 AM
You can always render things separately and composite. Brute force is not always a good idea in any program.

DorisDay
05-09-2005, 04:20 PM
It seems that you have both described EcoSystem very differently...the spawning duplicates and holding a reference makes sense to me, the material description doesn't!

It seems I described the exact same thing just in a different way to make it easier to understand for someone not familiar with the software. Visually an Eco-system looks exactly how I described...:banghead:

patrickkrebs
05-27-2005, 01:45 PM
I agree with the Kevin. Whenever I do scenes with plants and trees the easiest thing to do is to make your tree render it out and then graft it into the scene with a single 1x1 square. Much easier for the computer to handle no geometry when dealing with plants.

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