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thedoc
04-10-2005, 10:44 AM
hello there.

I'm still an intro level character modelling but i've done some hard surface modelling. I have made numerous attempts sat character modelling and find that things like the face are wspecially difficult to model. I have so far seen 3 different ways people use to get to a head... I want to know what advantages there are to it.

1)One of the ways that i would like to discuss are when you start of with a cube and put into a hypernurbs object. Then oyu subdevide with hypernurbs switched on then you select half the object and delete the vertices. You then place the object into a symetry object and you then shape up the face.

2)Then there's the point to point method where you start off with a polygon object and you specify points and later join them with the brigde tool.

3)Lastly i've seen one where you start with a sphere and you a extrude inner a couple of times.


WHICH method do you gurus use and why?

WHAT are the most important tools as far as you are concerned? extrude? extrude inner?

WHAT rules do you follw when modelling a face?

here's my latest attempt attached.

cookepuss
04-10-2005, 01:45 PM
Method #1 (Box Modeling): I've tried this with heads before. I can see how people would like it, as it's a bit like scultping. However, for the head, I'm not a fan of this technique. I've found it quite easy to accidentally create meshes that are too complex and warp a bit. Many people love to cut in their edge loops. I prefer to lay them in directly. The most obvious advantage is that you can see the model take shape immediate. No waiting for other polys to be created out of thin air. Your basic mass is already there being sculpted as you go along.

Method #2 (Poly-by-poly): This is my prefered method. Instead of cutting my primary edge loops into existing geometry, I can create them directly using point/poly creation techniques. This allows me a somewhat greater level of control. It also allows me to more strictly monitor my poly count in my control cage. The disadvantage to this technique is that it can be tedious, especially for the newbie. Another (minor) drawback is that you have to wait a little longer in order to see the greater form take shape.

Method #3 (????): What you're describing more or less sounds like the box modeling approach without symmetry. The basic advantages and disadvantages of that technique carry over. An additional disadvantage of not using symmetry is that your model will take twice as long to build. Where character models are concerned, I'd suggest you always start your primary form using symmetry. Later on, once the major detail work is in place, you can always choose to hand tweak the model as a whole to achieve some asymmetry for the sake of realism.

The most important tools for me tend to be Create point, Create poly, Symmetry Object, Knife, Edge Cut, and Slide.

As popular as ngons are, I prefer to stay away from them. The subdivide messily, disturb topological consistency, and can promote lazy modeling habits. I prefer to stay away from such crutches, using ngons only as a last resort. For the most part, I keep my models as quads, which subdivide quite cleanly and predictably. When merging areas of high and low detail, it becomes necessary to throw in a triangle every once in a while. I'd rather not, as they are just as messy as ngons, but they do serve a limited purpose.

What rules do I follow for modeling a face? Keep in mind that I model poly-by-poly. I start with my mouth edge/poly loops. I'll then create my eye loops, followed by my basic nose bump. I'll then connect all of that to form sort of a mask, keeping topology in mind. I'll drop in a 1/2 sphere skullcap to cover the back of my head. Connect all of that. Poly-by-poly an ear into the hole on the side of a head. Connect that. Tweak away. In a couple of hours, I'll have a nice lookin' head.


EDIT>> As for your model. Not a bad start. Hard to see under that poor lighting. There do seem to be some proportion issues, as well as a build up of excess geometry along the line of symmetry that's contributing to the creation of a ridge on the forehead. The topology around the eyes seems off too. There's that odd ridge under the left eye. Good start though. Care to show your wireframe?

Cactus Dan
04-10-2005, 03:09 PM
Howdy,

Well, sometimes it's good to use a combination of different methods, depending on what you need at the time. Although, I usually use box modeling most of the time, I sometimes use other methods in certain areas.

But I think whatever method you use is not quite as important as getting your edgeloops right, especially if you're planning to animate the character. Your model's topology will affect how well your character's mesh deforms.

Cactus Dan

Uncle-Ox
04-10-2005, 04:25 PM
Hi

Here's another way of modeling characters.
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=223476&highlight=GIF

It works really well because it allows you to sort out your topology before starting the actual shaping of the character.

JamesMK
04-10-2005, 04:30 PM
I usually box model the body and limbs, but tend to prefer poly by poly when it comes to faces and heads. Have a look at my face workflow from start to 50% done here -> http://www.cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2072622&postcount=49


EDIT: Oh and tools... well, loop and path cuts (knife tool), slide, bridge and normal move... and delete :) ... I use delete a lot.

And to add to Cactus Dan's talk about topology, I have to say that a decent topology is pretty much vital even if you are not going to deform/animate the character. The flow of loops affect shading as well, when rendered, so if there's a few edges that don't sit right, you might actually notice that even in a still render.

AdamT
04-10-2005, 04:45 PM
I usually box model the body and limbs, but tend to prefer poly by poly when it comes to faces and heads.
That's pretty much what I do too, although I've tried every combination.

pit
04-10-2005, 05:24 PM
Start here:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=38469
to learn about topology.

I do prefer poly by poly all the way, as it provides more control of your loops. (Speed will come with time.) Simply try all methods and their combinations. Then stick with what suits you best / feels right. itīs all about experience.

Draw and learn all you can about anatomy! It will improve your understanding of form, mass, proportions, weight, balance etc. All necessary ingredients for believable characters.


PS:
With ZBrush developing further all the mentioned techniques will soon be "old school", if not completely obsolete.

bobtronic
04-10-2005, 06:12 PM
I use boxmodeling most of the time but I also use a method which I call edge-by-edge.
It's the basically the same as point-by-point with the difference that I don't clone and
bridge points but extrude edges.

Bob

JIII
04-10-2005, 06:22 PM
Hmm, yeah speed will come with time, anatomy is the most important thing Idon't care if you are using Cinema version five or zbrush version 25 you still need a good grasp on anatomy to make anything worth looking at.Anatomy and practice that's what you need.

bobtronic
04-10-2005, 06:43 PM
little tip, stand a mirror next to your monitor, helps really to get a decent head modeled.
and yes some knowledge about anatomy helps but admitely I get rather lost with all
these scientific words they have for the bones and muscles.

Bob

JamesMK
04-10-2005, 06:50 PM
little tip, stand a mirror next to your monitor,
Oh yeah, that's a very very good thing.

Though in my case it's a bit scary at the same time, but it keeps me on my toes :D

pit
04-10-2005, 06:54 PM
"but admitely I get rather lost with all
these scientific words they have for the bones and muscles."


Terms are not important. The understanding of motoric function, placement and relationship of/between muscles and bones is very important.

wuensch
04-10-2005, 08:30 PM
check out the 3DAttack-link provided in my signature for my way (if i am not using Z-Brush).
Sort of a mixture of PolyByPoly, Box & primitives---

starts on page 3 of the thread with the face.

Olli

thedoc
04-11-2005, 02:29 PM
okay, ithink the modelling poly by poly for the face is it! i had to go through 7 attempts to have my face looking the waY IT DOES. materials are another stress i know i will have to go through in time.

LucentDreams
04-11-2005, 06:21 PM
I box model plane and simple. After my main head shape is complete, I melt the entire front area into on big ngon, then start cutting in my basic loops topology whihc i then assign materials to so tha tI cna keep track of the different areas, and then I start pulling thoue into the actual facial structure andget nitpicky.

AdamT
04-11-2005, 08:42 PM
I box model plane and simple. After my main head shape is complete, I melt the entire front area into on big ngon, then start cutting in my basic loops topology whihc i then assign materials to so tha tI cna keep track of the different areas, and then I start pulling thoue into the actual facial structure andget nitpicky.
Seriously? You're weird, man. :)

LucentDreams
04-11-2005, 08:49 PM
I've found it easier then shaping, reworking the clean edgeloops by cutting and deleting a lot. Makes sure I ahve a nice clean facial topology for animation. don't do any other areas like that though, the rest is a little more typical box modeling just cuts to add ore detail , reshape, and more cuts, occasional melts here and there to clean up.

AdamT
04-11-2005, 08:51 PM
It sounds like a good method, I've just never seen it done quite that way.

turx
04-11-2005, 09:13 PM
I'm using edge extruding.
- Before starting modeling, drawing a few splines helps a lot to understand the shape and make topology correct.
- Correct topology helps you to give details to your model.
- A disc object is a good start for a quick eye modeling(also useful for mouth modeling).

shakes
04-11-2005, 09:19 PM
I mainly make cartoon heads, so I find it very quick starting with a low poly sphere.
I use this method 80% of the time. If I was doing a highly detailed human head, or if I was animating the cartoon stuff, then I'd use point by point, as the topology is alot more important.

Here's a fantastic tutorial- Joan of Arc (http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp) for modelling a human head. it's for 3dsmax, but easily adapted into Cinema-you ideally need v9 as it uses ngons, but you can work around it if not. It's the best tutorial I've tried (it mainly uses edge extrude, which is really quick)

thedoc
04-14-2005, 10:01 AM
when i shape my head fine in box modelling then when it comes to shaping the eyes and the mouth... gosh! it all falls apart

Cartesius
04-14-2005, 10:49 AM
Point by point here. It gives me the best control of topology.

http://www.cinema4duser.com/images/tutorials/tut03g.jpg

/Anders

thedoc
04-16-2005, 10:03 AM
on the max tutorial can they are extruding edges... can cinema do that? or do i go hard core point to point?

can you guys just post me a link to a tutorial or two so i see the different way of approaching modelling in cinema.

igraq
04-16-2005, 11:16 AM
Speaking about ngons - i created few characters with it, but when i wanted to paint them in BP, something gone wrong - brush was jumping from one place to other... my bad knowledge of BP or ngon bug?

thedoc (member.php?u=91875): you can do that from Rel 8, otherwise you will need tool included in one of few plugins... search edge extrude at http://www.c4dplugs.com

thedoc
04-16-2005, 01:20 PM
I mainly make cartoon heads, so I find it very quick starting with a low poly sphere.
I use this method 80% of the time. If I was doing a highly detailed human head, or if I was animating the cartoon stuff, then I'd use point by point, as the topology is alot more important.

Here's a fantastic tutorial- Joan of Arc (http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc/joanmenu.asp) for modelling a human head. it's for 3dsmax, but easily adapted into Cinema-you ideally need v9 as it uses ngons, but you can work around it if not. It's the best tutorial I've tried (it mainly uses edge extrude, which is really quick)

went to your site and saw some of your stuff... on the eyes... do you use point to point?

thedoc
04-16-2005, 01:23 PM
Point by point here. It gives me the best control of topology.



/Anders

then i assume you weld and join the points together with everything else? how then do you avoid triangles?

Another thing is how you dont get cnfused with point to point when there are all those vertices around?

shakes
04-16-2005, 09:25 PM
went to your site and saw some of your stuff... on the eyes... do you use point to point?

hi doc-if you mean the eyeballs, they're just spheres.

"then i assume you weld and join the points together with everything else? how then do you avoid triangles?"

I think a few triangles here and there are OK, as long as they flow smoothly with the angle/shape of the mesh.

Another thing is how you dont get confused with point to point when there are all those vertices around?"

I think it's just a case of getting used to it-sometimes it's easier to switch to edges after connecting the points then using the magnet tool to shape it

you can get the edge extrude (http://www.vonkoenigsmarck.de/Bannerware/Bannerware.html) plugin here for free-a bit buggy on complex meshes, but when you're starting your mesh it works fine.

cheers, shakes

shakes
04-16-2005, 10:00 PM
here's how I do it most of the time. It all came from the one sphere. Nowadays I start with the base cartoon head and modify it, to save time. I added a bit more topology to the scary guy, as his mouth was quite important, and the looping had to be correct.

If you're starting out in modelling, I wouldn't recommend this way-too easy! you'll learn alot more about everything if you persevere with point by point.
http://img192.echo.cx/img192/6603/mesh20er.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

cgclay
04-17-2005, 12:34 AM
PS:
With ZBrush developing further all the mentioned techniques will soon be "old school", if not completely obsolete.
haha, I wouldn't count on them becoming obsolete

flingster
04-17-2005, 03:39 PM
i do it poly by poly...but still learning really...:shrug:

wuensch
04-18-2005, 08:41 AM
haha, I wouldn't count on them becoming obsolete

Maybe obsolete is the wrong word, but with displacement-modelling and the upcoming feature of ZBrush to be able to model first-then paint geometrie- then generate displacement I am pretty sure my workflow (which has changed a lot already towards ZBrush) will change drastically .

Olli

pit
04-18-2005, 12:26 PM
I meant obsolete as in obsolete :D

@ Clay`
2 years from now weīll be able to "model" a perfect animatable character without thinking about loops and other obstacles. Mark my words and donīt forget your own. :deal: :)

wuensch
04-18-2005, 01:20 PM
:argh:
hmm-- would not be to sure you dont have to care about loops--
you will paint the loops on the model after giving it form, but you will still be better off with loops for animation--
unless ZB 3 makes that redundant ;-)

On the other hand-- 2 years can bear some surprises (but I remember a discussion 4 or so years ago where I was promised that in 2 years we would all be able to do character animation without knowledge at all-- guess that "Make cool animation" button will be another round waiting. :shrug:

AdamT
04-18-2005, 02:52 PM
I meant obsolete as in obsolete :D

@ Clay`
2 years from now weīll be able to "model" a perfect animatable character without thinking about loops and other obstacles. Mark my words and donīt forget your own. :deal: :)
I agree, except I'd put it at closer to 5-10 years.

thedoc
04-19-2005, 01:05 PM
where are the lnks fr the tutorials that i wa asking for?

pit
04-19-2005, 02:33 PM
where are the lnks fr the tutorials that i wa asking for?

:rolleyes:

RTFM and do a search .....

soapy
04-19-2005, 07:06 PM
If you are going to do the poly by poly method, edge extrudes work really well for creating new polys. Edge extrudes are built into v9. It takes a while to get familiar with controlling the angle at which they come out but they work great. Learn the bridge tool for connecting things up.

thedoc
04-20-2005, 07:07 AM
:rolleyes:

RTFM and do a search .....

what's RTFM???????

Cartesius
04-20-2005, 10:11 AM
what's RTFM???????

RTFM = Read The F*****g Manual. More variations here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RTFM

/Anders

pit
04-20-2005, 11:05 AM
Heheh :D

"Critics would say that frequent users of the phrase (or similar sentiments) are simply expressing elitism, and that their attitude drives away newcomers without helping them. Their time could better be spent adding the question to an FAQ, pointing the user to a helpful website, or simply not responding."

STFG is not bad either.

thedoc, there are a plethora of modeling tutorials to be found on the net. Just search! Donīt expect or demand to be spoonfed.


:beer:

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