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ooo
04-08-2005, 07:44 PM
Over at Postforum Darf gives some insight into things at Corearsenal today. It seems they decided to quit developement of C4D-tools. Not commercially viable is the main reason.
It's a real pity...

odo

cookepuss
04-08-2005, 08:27 PM
Well, that sucks. Guess they had a good run. Glad I got Jenna while I could. Not worrying too much, as Jenna was really their major offering. Now, if you told me that Pers & Paul stopped C4D plugin development I'd probably crap myself. :p

Erik Heyninck
04-08-2005, 08:39 PM
I don't understand. The next version of Jenna was ready. Only the manual had to be written.

cookepuss
04-08-2005, 08:50 PM
The 180 shift does seem odd, especially since they announced only a couple of months ago that they'd be going to 9.x exclusively. On the one hand, that sounds like a simple matter of streamlining support. On the other hand, why even announce that when you're eventually going to dump C4D altogether? For that matter, why even go through the motions of getting that 3D World exposure? Maybe that was the point. Maybe they got exactly the attention that they wanted with their 3D World freebie. For all we know, they could've turned that to their benefit - except on another more commercially viable platform. Who knows? I wouldn't be surprised. Business is funny that way. :)

It's fun to speculate, but it's a dead horse anyway. On to bigger and better things I suppose.

ooo
04-08-2005, 09:03 PM
These are the words from Darf about the situation (PostForum):

Unfortunately the tools we created were not commercially viable in the C4D community. We used the free J2 in 3DWorld to test interest in our tools. The response was far too weak to justify continuing. Development has moved to the tools we use in the studio; Maya, Shake, Motion, Logic, and our proprietary applications. We have had great success with those apps in features, stability, and support. 2005 is the path of least resistance and greatest opportunity.

Well fortunately there are still a lot of cool developers for C4D around here. And better yet, new developers too! Nevertheless a pity when one is leaving for commercial reasons. Not a good sign for C4D-community...

AdamT
04-08-2005, 09:16 PM
Well, I guess we've heard this same tune two or three times before. It'll be a great loss if Darf manages to stay away this time. Pity, I was really looking forward to J3 and what it had to offer.

I'll also add that the 3D World giveaway doesn't seem to be a very good measuring stick, as we've seen that the magazine can be pretty hard to come by in the US and I'm sure in other countries.

RangTang
04-08-2005, 09:42 PM
Is STICK who is posting at postforum in fact darf or someone else? :cry:

Edit: It does appear from a quick search that STICK is darf. Why not a news post on the corearsenal site? Just seems a little off, but sometimes things and people go a little off.

Darth Mole
04-08-2005, 09:49 PM
It might be hard to come by, but overall the mag sells quite a lot (~15K worldwide). If Corearsenal didn't even get interest in registering a free plug-in, why would they consider carrying on with paid-for software?

It's annoying but, if I'm honest, I don't believe they did the right plug-ins: they produced very high-end stuff for dedicated, specific functions. C4D users want things like rig set-ups, hair and fur, tree and leaf modellers, procedural shaders... the sort of plug-ins that generate easy, pleasing results that C4D alone can't manage.

I've looked at coreparticletools a number of times, but can't justify the expense for something I'll use infrequently at best. The CA stuff is excellent, but just not very mass market.

Of course, if they want to offload coreparticletools at a reduced rate...

Byla
04-08-2005, 09:56 PM
they seem to be very oriented towards motion graphics and thats the field Cinema is realy good at and becoming the strongest application basicly in the world... So its a great shame to hear that. I know people switching from max to cinema just because of Corearsenal plugins!

Thats gonna backfire.

darf
04-08-2005, 09:59 PM
stick == darf

I can confirm we will not be continuing C4D development.

The deal is that I have always written software around my goals as an artist. I have never been a business man nor a 'developer' pers'e. This makes my work either very interesting and useful or inane to users. Core was spending a fair amount of resources in the beginning to get things running at my request. The income did not cover expenses. We gave J2 away free with a continuation tolerance of 1000 registrations. Wasn't close. With the studio moving onto MAYA anyway there is no reason to continue development for C4D. There simply is not enough time. My tools that were made available to the public were a product of what I created to work. SLA was the same. None of these tools were created with the goal of selling. That ma have been the prolem with commercial viability but is not something I would choose to do. Thus I bid C4D farewell.

Good journey to you all.

darf out

Byla
04-08-2005, 10:03 PM
now that is a reeeaaal shame... really fuc*in sad.

cookepuss
04-08-2005, 10:04 PM
nevermind.... not worth repeating myself. :)

I do think that Darf hit the nail on the head as for why they probably weren't selling well. Just because a plugin meets one person's needs doesn't mean that it meets the demands of the community at large. It's more than, "If you build, it they well come." It's more along the lines of, "Give people what they want." That's what sells. Jenna, while kick@$$, is hard to describe and even harder to market. OTOH, plugins like StormTracer, Final Touch, and even EMorpher can reach a broader user base because they fill more "exotic" (read: desirable) needs.

ernia
04-08-2005, 10:11 PM
I'm sorry to hear that, Darf. I just got your wonderful Jenna2 plug and was getting excited for more. Sounds too late to try and talk you out of it, so thank you and farewell. I'll try putting a dollar bill in the Iterator; if it works out I'll send you some as a big thank you. I benefit from your work every day.

ernia

pasto
04-08-2005, 10:16 PM
I can't believe that, what about Jenna 3 ?
You have told us so many good things about it !
Will you developp these tools for Maya now ?

Too sad.

darf
04-08-2005, 10:39 PM
I can't believe that, what about Jenna 3 ?
You have told us so many good things about it !
Will you developp these tools for Maya now ?

Too sad.

Pasto, it is users like yourself that make me very sad to leave this community. There were a few extremely talented uses that really got what I was creating. I believe you were definitely one of those users. I fear I must tell you that, yes, I am moving all of my tool cretion to MAYA. I couldn't say if they will be available to the comunity on a whole though. It takes alot of time and effort to write manuals and support even a free plugin. J3 had some incredible features. To the point, only the most serious motion designers even understood what they did. Probably less than 10% of the J2 users would even see the features in J3. Simply do not have the time to try to explain why it is good. Guess that is the end reason in a nutshell.

darf

rsquires
04-08-2005, 10:53 PM
Since I guess we wont be seeing the audio plugin Response any time soon from Core, I suggest that the latest hot C4D plugin developer, Renato Tarabella ( path deformer, and NOTA ) make it instead!

Why not. NOTA is an unbelievably useful tool, as is Path Deformer. I reckon he could do the same with an audio triggering plugin for C4D

regards

richard

pasto
04-08-2005, 11:35 PM
OUCH...

I am a Maya user too but for motion graphic design, Jenna and Core Particle Tools are killers combined with the speed of c4d render engine.
I feel like you are cutting two of my legs. I feel like I will stay on c4d 9.1 for the rest of my mograph career.


Well take this little drawing as a tribute to your work. So long Darf.

http://pasto.alterheberg.org/Images/DARF.jpg

rsquires
04-08-2005, 11:47 PM
Another thing I use Vixol all the time at the moment. It rocks big time. I am so glad Darf made this and that the C4D community got to use it.

thanks

richard

:thumbsup:

Squirrel
04-08-2005, 11:48 PM
Hi all!

Of course its a tragedy to see one of cinemas most talented plugin developers to quit the developing of tools for C4D, but i also understand his motivation to do so. But, as I understand Jenna 3 is already nearly finished..so it would be a waste not to release it somehow. My question now is, if its possible that someone else can continue the development and distribution of Jenna 3, if darf is willing to sell or give the plugin into the hands of somebody who will continue his work.
What do u think?
My 2cents,
cheers
Squirrel

DeathCarrot
04-08-2005, 11:54 PM
:sad: sad to see you go mate, i've been an avid supporter of bhodinut/ca since the early days of R7 when I was first introduced to c4d.. in any case, i wish you the all best with your future CG and programming work, and thank you for contributing so much to the c4d community :)

acmepixel
04-09-2005, 12:00 AM
Well this all really bites. What do Jenna users on R8.5 who want to upgrade to R9 do about getting an update?. What about the free magazine version, will registrations still be available?

I plan on upgrading to R9 later this year (when a project pays for it), will I be able to update my Jenna 2 to work with R9? I can't do it now without an R9 serial number.

I wish Darf the best, ya gotta go where the money grows.

Chadman
04-09-2005, 12:19 AM
Yes l think that's correct in that using the 3Dworld magazine as a deciding factor as l'm in Australia and l only got the magazine yesterday! Now l haven't had a chance to look at J2 plugin yet and l've heard a lot of talk about it and from what l've seen in the magazine pages l can see why people have always made alot of noise about the Jenna plugin.

So l think that they may be jumping ship before they even know she's sinking.

Chad P.

rsquires
04-09-2005, 12:24 AM
that's a very canny point. Have they really given it a chance. I know that I haven't seen the mag in australia yet and some people hadn't seen it in the States either.

regards


rich

Daoine
04-09-2005, 12:48 AM
It's a good thing I read this before going to the corearsenal website. I just got paid and was going to buy corepartical tools. But... Not anymore. I guess I should stop saving from Jenna 3, too. Well, this really sucks!!!

Whatever you do darf, at least try to keep what's already coded available to the c4d community. PLEEEEEEASE! BTW, Jenna2 is gonna be in the next 3dWorld, ya sure ya ain't gonna make that quota?

I just recently found your tools, and I'm sorry I won't be able to enjoy them.

Good luck in all your future endeavors,

Daoine

Oh yeah, 3dworld issue 62 JUST got to the eastern US... so, food for thought.

yogert909
04-09-2005, 02:22 AM
[THIS POST IS BY GOVINDA--I'm at another cgtalk member's computer at a studio.]

This is sad beyond belief. I actually bought Jenna *twice* for reasons that would really make me sound stupid. Five hundred dollars doesn't approach how useful Jenna has been for me.

A few people have mentioned that there's a difference between BN/Cidertank/Core Arsenal's working field (motion graphics) and everyone else's. Sometimes I feel like there are users on this forum who have no conception that there's a world of people doing motion graphics with this app. For example, a few posts up, a guy said that what c4d users really want are more CA tools and that Jenna was very specific. Specific my ass--do a lot of people think this? How many people are so shut-in to doing animated carrots and beautiful gi renders of living rooms that they don't know about what people like darf, Pasto, bek and Tim Clapham do on a daily basis? If I hear 'spinning logos' as a description of what motion graphics involves from c4d users again I'm going to burst. Okay, sure, more CA tools, except that a big, active installed base of motion graphic studios aren't going to touch that toolset. Meanwhile c4d's clumsy timeline gets very short shrift.

The upshot to this rant? If more people in forums like this saw the whole world of what's being done with the app, not just their own slice of the universe, developers like darf might have more incentive to create tools for them. Thank god Renato gets it, but his creations are a huge case in point. The lack of a Path Deformer-like tool was the single most glaring hole in the app from the standpoint of motion graphics, and yet I can't remember hearing it agitated about here--certainly not as often as someone will complain about visible samples in an architectural interior render. Another hole for motion graphics is the inability to see qt textures in materials in the editor window. Maybe there's a Renato for that, so we don't have to see another five soft IK rig plugins go by before a single stab gets taken at solving that problem.

Designers are never going to be highly technical, and therefore not as highly involved in the toolset as someone who does, say, product design. So they're not going to be posting on CGTalk as much. That's our own fault. But at least everyone should look at what someone like darf DID with c4d, so the loss can be appreciated, and people can get a greater appreciation for what people lik him really do for a living. I'm referring to his excellent Champs sports animation, which you can see on the Core site.

Darf, unless I'm way off, is a motion guy who also knows how to do everything else in the app, rather than the other way around. That's one less world class designer using this app, and that's a big loss, and a tiny part of the blame goes to our own myopia.

[THIS POST IS BY GOVINDA--I'm at another cgtalk member's computer at a studio.]

Zendorf
04-09-2005, 06:33 AM
This is a very sad loss for the C4d community :sad: But business is business. I was really hanging out for J3 and particularly for Response.....Cinema is just crying out for some audio and midi Xpresso nodes !

Would be great if another developer could step in where Darf has left off, but I imagine that this is unlikely. Thankfully there are other developers (3rd party, Remo, Arndt etc) that are actively developing some amazing stuff. With any luck, Remo will be able to gradually add some of the Jenna type stuff that is missing in Ditools, like iterator...there is certainly a lot of shared ground between those plugins.

Btw, Chad and Rich....the best place to get the latest 3d World is Borders. I get the latest issue (got issue 63 there a few weeks ago) there for only $5 more than a 3 month old one from a regular newsagent.

Erik Heyninck
04-09-2005, 06:39 AM
Good luck Darf! I bought Cinema because of the (then separate) Bhodinut SLA and tried to support by buying about every plugin you created, even if some were way above my head, because I sensed the vision behind them.

It is a sad moment to see you go, and to know all the work you did for J3 and who knows what else, has been a waste of time.

I can only hope Maya brings you more luck.

marcom
04-09-2005, 07:22 AM
thats really sad... i just recently bought CPT and was planning to buy J3.

i wish you more luck (and financial success) with your future undertakings!
your tools will be missed...

cheers
marcom

Kabe
04-09-2005, 07:44 AM
...to expect 1000 registrations from a magazin that has a circulation of 15k, which would be a terrific reponse rate of over 6% of the readers. IMO 1% would qualify to be really successful. You probably could get much more registrations if you would choose European magazines with a much greater circulation or if you had try to find someone who had hosted this as a download.

Regarding availability: I tried to get the magazine here in Munich with no luck at all.

Anyway, be it as it be - I can understand that decision, though I can't support it as a user who's invested in Jenna V1 and the V2 update. I feel now a little bit left in the cold with Jenna V2.2 given away for free - maybe even in a more recent version that the 2.2 the paying users have - and no Jenna 3 at the horizon. Or even worse: It's at the horizon, but no sunrise today.

If you are not publishing J3 because it's too expensive to support it, then please try to find others who take the responsibility.

Too sad, and frankly, it feels a bit like you promised a bit too much, though certainly not in bad intention. You better don't make this a habit or it will come down on you.

Anyway, all the best

Kabe

pasto
04-09-2005, 08:23 AM
Hi Govinda, I am with you on this of course.
I can't believe we are so few to appreciate these tools...
Nobody knows what CPT can do I guess.
We should have shown the world (yeah) the power of Darf's tools.
I hope Renato is going to make tools like these, he is a tv graphic designer too, he knows our needs.

Byla
04-09-2005, 09:09 AM
Actually I had trouble sleeping this night couse of this sad news. Core particle tools plugin is something on my wishlist for quite some time now and I guess I won't be buying it then if there wont be any further development. I am also a Maya user, actually most of my company's work is done in Maya couse of CA tools, but for 35% of the stuff we use Cinema and Jenna as the main plugin for our stuff. Switching all this tools to Maya is sad couse we really want to run away from using it due to a fact it needs too much support and very steady nerves.

ghopper
04-09-2005, 11:28 AM
Darf,

This is bad news for C4D motion graphic designers. But to be honest I don't fully understand what the real problem is. Is it because there are some communication issues between Corearsenal and Maxon, i.e not enough support from Maxon ?

If the low sales numbers are the real reason, then maybe you should consider using a different marketing strategy. As was mentioned before, your tools are very specialised and most C4D users don't really know what it's useful for. But then again, you said you don't have the time to explain what it's good for. Not a problem, let Jenna users or CPT users do the explanation. I'm sure you could get together a nice reel showcasing Corearsenal tools in action. And then maybe get in touch with CGChannel to have a Corearsenal article featured on the front page. Something along the lines of:

- Show amazing reel
- Mention this can all be done with Corearsenal tools
- Article about Corearsenal
- Link to Corearsenal Jenna2 free download
- Link to Corearsenal shop

or similar.

Additionally get up a banner on cgtalk and other motion graphic sites. I know this will cost more money, but will probably get more exposure than a one time article in 3DWorld.

C4D is an ideal app for motion graphics and I believe the userbase is there and we need your tools ;). But then again, coming up with a good marketing plan also needs more resources, which you probably don't have.

Also, are you moving plugin development over to MAYA ? If so, how many users use MAYA for motion graphics ? Do you believe you will have more sales ?

Anyway, I hope you will come back to C4D. In the meantime all the best and hope you will have more success with your plugins on the other side.

ooo
04-09-2005, 11:57 AM
@ghopper: although you're probably right about the marketing strategy, don't forget these tools were never made to be sold. They were developed for a special purpose and then also made available to other users. Selling was not a primary goal like it is for other plugin developers. We were lucky to benefit from what Darf did for C4D and now accept the fact it's over.

odo

basilisk
04-09-2005, 12:26 PM
I got the free Jenna off 3D world, and I agree that without it life in Cinema 4D would be a nightmare. Shouldn't Maxon license this software to release with C4D v9.2? It gives a real boost to the package, and if, without further development, Jenna becomes incompatible with C4D v10, it will be a real backward step.

Ernest Burden
04-09-2005, 12:29 PM
I haven't tried Jenna.

Does anyone know if the company is going to completely pull it, not continue to sell the existing product, or just not develope any new versions?

lllab
04-09-2005, 01:01 PM
oh shit! well if jenna is not available any more there is one thing less that held me to cinema...to bad, very sad...

good by darf!
all the best.

stefan

sad
04-09-2005, 01:01 PM
from a practical point of view i´d suggest to remove any necessity of support of copy protection via serial numbers (if applicable) and to release it for free without any support.

or:
sell it with quite a low price (because of lack of a manual) and without serial numbers in order to make sure there is no need to support it further.

that way the amount of work that went into J3 won´t be a total waste of time.

i, too, haven´t been able to purchase a copy of the magazine which contained J2.2 (munich as well).

why don't you release J2.2 on your website in order to get a broader overview who might be interested in J3?

don´t let your work be a waste of time and energy! :cry:

Daoine
04-09-2005, 01:29 PM
Just a quick q. What would be the "ballpark" $$$ to buy the rights to plugs like core arsenals?

We talkin' thousands or Tens of thousands?
I MIGHT have some capitol to invest to keep development in c4d. I'm not a programmer though, so I'd need some help on that end.

Personally, I think this really sucks. I know I've already responded to this before, but... Damn!!! I just found out about core arsenal, I haven't even had the chance to fall in love with there plugins. From what I've seen in Jenna 2.2 and read of CPT; Damn! I really missed out here. And what really burns me, is that the reasons aren't clearly logical. The whole thing with the 3d world magazine being the deciding factor. Core wanting there registered user base to more than double because of it. Frankly, I think the price may have been a factor in "low sales". If you think about it, we cinema users are used to being able to amass a lot of plugins very quickly and with very little cash. There are basically 3 different scales of plugins out there: the "less than $100", "more than $100" and then there's the "modules and 3rd party apps that happen to link up with c4d". Basically, look at it like this: I wanted CPT more than I wanted CD IK Tools. But I got CD IK Tools, cuz it was only $60 and it's a great plug. I'm thinkin' "Hmm, I can get a plug now, or I can get a plug in about 4 months". The same goes for storm tracer and vreel. Both cheaper and quite powerful and both doing well. If CPT was $100, or even $150, I would have snatched it up a while ago and the money would be in Core's pocket. And I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm not at all saying that Core's tools aren't worth every penny they're selling for (and then some!). It's just basic stuff, cheaper things sell quicker and in greater volume; more people have $50 laying around, than $200.

I may just be a dingus, I'm just ranting, I hate missing out on a good thing,

Daoine

AdamT
04-09-2005, 02:14 PM
This whole thing seems a little weird and a lot like deja vu. IMO Darf's tools have always been underutizied and underappreciated do to a letdown in marketing and manuals/tutorials. I thought the idea of joining Core was to get better support in these areas, but as far as I can tell there was little to no improvement.

Anyway, I'll certainly miss Darf's cool stuff--until he gets fed up with Maya and comes back to us in ... say 6-12 months? :)

I find I'm less and less inclined to buy plugins unless I have an immediate, paying job that would benefit from them, as there's no guarantee or even likelihood that the tools will be supported when I really need them. It's just a sad fact of life.

IanMJ
04-09-2005, 03:06 PM
Very bad news. :sad:

I've bought all of Darf's plug ins (even the beta of Loco). Concerning Loco/CPT, although I'm using it where I can in projects, I was expecting great things from future developments of it.

Good luck Darf, I hope your plugins turn out to be more viable on the Maya platform.

mecha
04-09-2005, 03:20 PM
This is not good, not good at all!

All the best Darf, I thought CPT was fantastic and was waiting for the tutorials to be posted so I could really get into it. A real pity, but thanks for your work so far!

CPT / Jenna and more from Darf - Gone!
Maxwell Plugin - Who knows?
Motion Builder FBX issues - Worrying!

Not a good Cinema weekend. How much is Maya?

mecha

cookepuss
04-09-2005, 03:35 PM
CPT / Jenna and more from Darf - Gone!
True, but it couldn't have been THAT surprising.

Maxwell Plugin - Who knows?
In time. You're talking about bridging a 3rd party renderer. It's not like creating a regular plugin. There's a lot more work to be done. Consider the sheer amount and variety of data that has to be passed. Something like this takes time.

Motion Builder FBX issues - Worrying!
Why? The fault is Alias' not Maxon's. They were the ones who were slow to release & finalize specific SDK stuff. Keep in mind that, as Maxon is handling FBX import internally, there's only so much they can do until Alias gets their act together. If FBX support were a 3rd party plugin the situation might be a bit different. (or not) :)

Not a good Cinema weekend. How much is Maya?
Oy! Talk about overreacting. :p Sh** happens. You'd be just as miserable on any other platform. The life of a Maya/Max user is not without its own woes either.

spirozero
04-09-2005, 03:50 PM
Couldn't Core pass the development of these plugin's onto someone else?

Put 'em in the hands of Renato!

mesaticus
04-09-2005, 04:03 PM
Perhaps this has been answered, I've tried reading through all the posts, but I guess the fate of the other plug-ins are unknown?

I'm new to cinema, and first heard about corearsenal through the Jenna/3dworld offer on this board (I stalked my local bookstore, bought and registered). Now that I know who they are, I think CPT looks awesome. I'd hate to buy something I'm not ready for now, just to have it for the future....but if in the future it's to be totally gone....that would suck.

Erik Heyninck
04-09-2005, 04:03 PM
On the positive side: Jenna2 is working in Cinema9.1.
As are CPT, Vixol, Ralf etc.
Unfortunately, Penny and Praline are lost since 7.3.

Apart from that, it's not a question of Maya users. CA studio are working more and more with Maya, and therefore, automatically, Darf writes the plugins he needs to realize his ideas for it, and not anymore for Cinema. He would (have) if there were more Cinema users who were willing to invest some money instead of waiting untill they got it for free. When you create something for yourself, you need no documentation or a slick interface, and all the extra work can be considered a waste of time when there is little or no reaction or some kind of reward to counterbalance it. And don't call the greedy as long-time buyers got everything for free.

Perhaps CPT could be bought by Maxon, and included in the next TP?

mecha
04-09-2005, 04:41 PM
Oy! Talk about overreacting. :p Sh** happens. You'd be just as miserable on any other platform. The life of a Maya/Max user is not without its own woes either.

Yeah I know! It was kind of a tounge in cheek comment, but I am considering a switch to Maya simply because it has become a much affordable proposition than it was when I first purchased C4D 7XL! Plus my Motion Builder comment was more of a pessimistic prospect of MB eventually becoming a Maya only product like Character Studio for MAx.

Anyway, back on topic - I hope Maxon do purchase and demystify CPT and Jenna as they are superb plug-ins and well worth double what was charged for them. Perhaps that was the problem?

mecha

Byla
04-09-2005, 05:09 PM
MB becoming maya only app? Dont think so. Too much high end industry need it for combining stuff from various software, and Alias is not stupid enought to do such a thing. So I say, never.

kevinb
04-09-2005, 05:11 PM
i think it's time for everyone to flood maxon suggestion box with the need for them to integrate corearsenals work into the application!

http://www.maxon-computer.com/pages/support/suggestions_e.html

slack
kevin

zoetropeuk
04-09-2005, 05:21 PM
Hi,

I just grabbed two copies from borders in Oxford so if anyone in the UK wants it just let me know and I'll pop it in the post on Monday :)

email me matthew (at) 360precision.com

Matt

TimC
04-09-2005, 05:24 PM
Just to add my opinion about this - GUTTED!!

I bought the original SLA for c4D 6 and then jenna 1, I use jenna 2 and CPT all the time in my work. It really is a shame.

I'd really love J3, just for the iteration of TP particles... Jenna 2 only just touches on this and the future looked so bright!!

Oh well, good luck to core arsenal and all their future ventures, they are some talented people and I thank them for all their offerings so far.

"YOU WIN!!"

LOL

cheers
TimC

flingster
04-09-2005, 05:39 PM
NO.....................................
NOOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!
NO FRIGGIN' WAY IS THIS ACCEPTIBLE.......I REFUSE TO ACCEPT YOUR RESIGNATION!!

NO

NO

NO.

absolutely gutted...i can't understand this or even want to face the prospect of this.
Tools like Jenna and Loco and SLA are what drew me to c4d and certainly what keeps me here. Darfs naming conventions and ui might be a little unorthodox but there functionality is second to non...they have allowed me create stuff i would never have dreamed about...they fed my creativity. There is NOTHING even close within c4d toolset or else where to even do some of the functionality his toolset provide to say "i don't need it or i won't miss it" is to really miss the point..or that there are other developers around...NAME a developer who is like darf! on any 3d platform...they don't exist...to say he is moving to maya is a major coup even if maya users don't realise it yet. when you want to push boundaries or create innovative imagery then tools like his enable you to do so.

its totally unacceptible darfster...and you will be sorely missed my man...SO hurry back because youre only on a loaner for now! and as to J3 nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!

chris_b
04-09-2005, 05:39 PM
hey guys... :(
I hear you Tim... this is deeply upsetting.
SLA is the reason why I chose Cinema over
lightwave back in the V6 days.

Jenna revolutionized my work, and CPT and
Vixol figure in almost every project I do. If
Maxon doesn't pick up the code on this I am
going to be stuck using v9 forever.

I was really looking forward to J3 and Response...
Please Darf let us give you something for these
last remnants of your programming genius. Please!

You will be missed very much.
All the best to you in love and life.

Byla
04-09-2005, 06:24 PM
Maxon should do something. If they want to stay the best mograph developers, they should do something... Something quick.

muli
04-09-2005, 06:30 PM
Maxon should do something. If they want to stay the best mograph developers, they should do something... Something quick.

can they? what can they do?

i own cpt & jenna. this is incredibly depressing to me.

JoelOtron
04-09-2005, 07:07 PM
There are different camps of c4d users. The forum tends to focus on the representational and character oriented users and uses.

I wonder if Maxon realizes how many mograph studios use Jenna and CPT?

AdamT
04-09-2005, 08:19 PM
Sorry, I just can't get out on the ledge this time. The first time Darf closed up shop, yeah, definitely. I was out there the second time too, even though it was raining. But while I'll miss Darf and his cool tools, my reaction the third time is more, "[yawn] what else is new"? I know his intention is not to jerk us around, but I still feel jerked around and I don't like it. Best of luck, and we'll see you in 6-12 months. You win!

AdamT
04-09-2005, 08:24 PM
There are different camps of c4d users. The forum tends to focus on the representational and character oriented users and uses.

I wonder if Maxon realizes how many mograph studios use Jenna and CPT?
I imagine they have a pretty good idea with respect to CPT, since Maxon picked up half the tab for anyone who bought it during the first x months. I guess that goes to the lack of support from Maxon.

darf
04-09-2005, 08:50 PM
I imagine they have a pretty good idea with respect to CPT, since Maxon picked up half the tab for anyone who bought it during the first x months. I guess that goes to the lack of support from Maxon.

What are you talking about?

1) bhodiNUT desolved, I kept going to produce J2. Very rocky times for me but I delivered ( all be it, a long drawn out process ).

2) cidertank development passed to CoreArsenal for better resources. Again, didn't say I stopped did I? ).

3) Maxon picked up what? Do yo know what you are speaking of? Maxon has never been involved with LOCO / CPT. There was an attempt for Maxon USA to distribute J2 but that never produced anything of value.

4) Explain

Edited out anger.

David Farmer

kevinb
04-09-2005, 09:05 PM
darf we are acting like this because we feel like scorned lovers. you work elavates what we all do on cinema. we're hurt and worried that your contributions will end now and when version 10 comes out we will no longer have your tools to use.
we love what you do, your passion you unique naming and the depth your tools can take us .

there must be a better solution. :cry:

spirozero
04-09-2005, 09:14 PM
there must be a better solution. :cry:

I agree. Can't we explore other alternatives?

acmepixel
04-09-2005, 09:30 PM
So far this thread has been viewed over 2300 times. Kind of ironic, no?

I'm not buying into the 1000 minimum registrations excuse. I think they were going to Maya regardless.

I'm not blaming Darf. He's an employee and it's out of his hands.

JamesMK
04-09-2005, 09:40 PM
- - - your unique naming - - -
That bit in particular is something I would really miss :D
Seriously.

shetland
04-09-2005, 09:43 PM
David/Dar,

This is my first post (long time lurker). Let me chime in here and offer thanks for coding such great tools. I purchased Core particles last year, and have been enjoying the plugin immensely - and was looking forward to J3.

I wish you well of future endeavors, and hope there is some slight possibility of working in some way with the cinema community.

I am a little curious to know if you are releasing anyting in the future for Motion?

Are you by chance attending NAB? I will be there.

shelley

darf
04-09-2005, 09:46 PM
So far this thread has been viewed over 2300 times. Kind of ironic, no?

I'm not buying into the 1000 minimum registrations excuse. I think they were going to Maya regardless.

I'm not blaming Darf. He's an employee and it's out of his hands.

To be honest, blame me. One thousand was the tolerance. It may have only been a matchstick, but the acumulation is too much. It is a decision I fretted over for years. It has been long coming and it is a good thing all around. There are some very talented developers doing stuff for C4D. Support them by purchasing the tools and by making their concerns heard by Maxon. The latter is far more important that you would believe.

Regards,
David Farmer

Continuumx
04-09-2005, 09:55 PM
Okay,

I never knew about the world of MOGRAPH until some one posted this video of them doing some wonderful things with sketch and toon, AR, and Cinema 4D Core for some European Bank. IF you search the forums here, I am sure you will find the post, it was the most wonderful thing I saw. And then, I knew there was another type of 3d user.

Great. I am slowly learning about Jenna 2.22 - I bought the 3D World Mag. - It has some interest architectural uses- I am not sure what to do with most of the plug because there are so few examples/tutorials. But I will begin to start exploring what they can be used for soon enough.

The point of this message. Okay, so where are the works that have been produced with Jenna, Loco, Vixol, CARALF, CPT?

There is some really nice CPT animations on CPT website, but it is so sparce, I cannot make out what exactly it does. Vixol looks marvelous, but again, it is very difficult to grasp.

The point, you have this thread, maybe a good thing to make someone wake up to what could be missed without Jenna 2.22/3/CPT/Vixol/Loco and the rest is to show us what can be possible with these and mention what you used like, Iterator, Nicl, whatever- but from what I have seen, the only places I can guess I could see this kind of other use for 3D is in television commercials....

Show the work.....Invite us -render visualization/Character Anima Freaks into your world, please...I think I am ready.

darf
04-09-2005, 10:15 PM
David/Dar,
I am a little curious to know if you are releasing anyting in the future for Motion?
Are you by chance attending NAB? I will be there.
shelley

Curious. What would make you ask those questions?

darf

shetland
04-09-2005, 10:46 PM
Curious. What would make you ask those questions?

darf

Since you mentioned in this thread (or at least others), that much of your work is directed towards the motion graphics community (in the form of production work)- and that you guys use motion, it was natural (at least for me) to wonder whether tools you've probably developed for these efforts, are you considering doing so commercially? I think some time in the past, there was some mention of efforts directed at after effects too. I believe its fair to say the market for motion graphics is much greater than 3d - and through distributors such as tool farm, perhaps an asset for the small developer. Just curious - not implying anything!

As far as NAB - I'm not an assasin images/icons/icon6.gif, if that is what you are afraid of! I haven't been in years, and looking forward to going (mainly since I've heard so much about the star trek show at one of the hotels!

shelley

darf
04-09-2005, 11:01 PM
Since you mentioned in this thread (or at least others), that much of your work is directed towards the motion graphics community (in the form of production work)- and that you guys use motion, it was natural (at least for me) to wonder whether tools you've probably developed for these efforts, are you considering doing so commercially? I think some time in the past, there was some mention of efforts directed at after effects too. I believe its fair to say the market for motion graphics is much greater than 3d - and through distributors such as tool farm, perhaps an asset for the small developer. Just curious - not implying anything!

As far as NAB - I'm not an assasin images/icons/icon6.gif, if that is what you are afraid of! I haven't been in years, and looking forward to going (mainly since I've heard so much about the star trek show at one of the hotels!

shelley

Fair enough, image didn't display. I still think you are an assasin.

darf

TimC
04-09-2005, 11:13 PM
I still think you are an assasin.

darf


do you use that in cooking?

ouch!

TimC

shetland
04-09-2005, 11:19 PM
Fair enough, image didn't display. I still think you are an assasin.

darf

:) Well, see, this is why I should have remained in lurk mode - I tried to use one of those smiley things!!

Anyway, good luck & god speed (the latter, who knows; my ineptness is not limited to the misuse of emoticons, but also carries over to the use of colloqualisms and cliches!)

shelley

AdamT
04-10-2005, 12:12 AM
> What are you talking about?

> 1) bhodiNUT desolved, I kept going to produce J2. Very rocky
> times for me but I delivered ( all be it, a long drawn out
> process ).

Maybe I'm remembering wrong, but I thought at the time you said you were giving up Cinema development to pursue AE plugins and other stuff. Around that time a new version of Cinema came out and it became impossible to get new registration numbers for BN plugins (the ones that still mostly worked) for many months. Not your fault I know, but I had to redo a lot of scenes because of it.

> 2) cidertank development passed to CoreArsenal for better
> resources. Again, didn't say I stopped did I? ).

You're 100% right--I'm a bad bad man!! Sorry. I think I accumulated a lot of talk about leaving into another occasion. Anyway, due to the changeover or maybe just changes in Cinema (R9) Jenna became unuseable for quite a few months. Still not anyone's fault, but a bunch of my scenes had to be reworked again.

> 3) Maxon picked up what? Do yo know what you are speaking of?
> Maxon has never been involved with LOCO / CPT. There was an
> attempt for Maxon USA to distribute J2 but that never produced
> anything of value.

I don't think I'm imagining this one. There was a blurb on the C+A site when CPT was first released saying the plugin was half price until 12/31 (something like that) courtesy of Maxon and we had to get some kind of coupon code from Maxon's site. I've no idea what the story was behind that, but y'all certainly made it sound like Maxon was making up all or some of the difference. Maybe it was something completely different?

>4) Explain

You win!

muli
04-10-2005, 12:15 AM
ok, i will accept this. i believe other future plugins will fill the void.

Silverdog
04-10-2005, 12:37 AM
I am one of the many(?) that have obtained the free Jenna2.2 and are in the process of

accumulating funds to upgrade to R9. A few weeks back, I was told on the Corearsenal forum that there would be no time out on registering J2.2. Is this still the case? I have never used
Jenna, but was very much looking forward to as soon as I could afford R9. Very sorry to see Darf go, but again.....will we still be able to register J2.2 to C4D R9? :shrug:

Ernest Burden
04-10-2005, 12:40 AM
I don't think I'm imagining this one. There was a blurb on the C+A site when CPT was first released saying the plugin was half price until 12/31 (something like that) courtesy of Maxon and we had to get some kind of coupon code from Maxon's site.

It said that an hour ago.

I figured it was time to at least see what all the tears are for, having never bought (or looked into Jenna) so I visited their site to see if it was still for sale. Perhaps it is (didn't proceed to actually buy it) but found it to be $200 but that it was 1/2 with a coupon code from Maxon site.

I'm still confused.

Oh, well. Better when they cry upon your exit than party.

Dxotic
04-10-2005, 01:08 AM
This is indeed a shame!

I wish all the best to you darf and corearsenal.hope to see u back soon :D

Its almost always the pioneers/frontier person that gets the bullet first, and will always be misunderstood and called crazy. whilst everyone else that comes after truly benefits from their work with little or no acknowledgement.sigh!

Hopefully Darf, you will still be that pioneer and that u can dodge the bullets, your coding talents will be missed by myself and others . It was Smell like Almonds that got me truly interested in C4D, heck it was that combo that got me into 3D.

Hopefully you will not let it gasp its final breath.

darf
04-10-2005, 02:44 AM
> What are you talking about?
I don't think I'm imagining this one. There was a blurb on the C+A site when CPT was first released saying the plugin was half price until 12/31 (something like that) courtesy of Maxon and we had to get some kind of coupon code from Maxon's site. I've no idea what the story was behind that, but y'all certainly made it sound like Maxon was making up all or some of the difference. Maybe it was something completely different?


That was an attempt to get Maxon to help in the marketing area as they were the only party to have access to the userlist. That was it. There was no money exchanging hands. Sad we had to work it that way to get press from Maxon.

darf

AdamT
04-10-2005, 04:12 AM
I see. Well, sorry for being bitchy anyway. I posted that first thing in the morning--before my first cup of coffee even--which is never a good idea. I do sincerely wish you the best and remain a big fan.

darf
04-10-2005, 04:18 AM
I see. Well, sorry for being bitchy anyway. I posted that first thing in the morning--before my first cup of coffee even--which is never a good idea. I do sincerely wish you the best and remain a big fan.

Apologize to me for being grumpy? Come on, that was karma at work... :D

darf

ghopper
04-10-2005, 06:29 AM
I get the feeling the real reason Corearsenal leaving C4D development is the lack of support from Maxon. I think Darf gave a few hints already. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

But how will Alias be different ? Do they offer more support for plugin developers ? Or is their SDK better ?

Finally, isn't C4D better suited for Motion Graphics than Maya ? If so, why the change to Maya ?

sketchbook
04-10-2005, 07:46 AM
SAD DAY!

i also have purchased more than one copy of jenna for reasons beyond my control. i just wish i had the time to get learn some other tools from darf. I am so greatful for Jenna (iterator specifically) for making my life much better!

i guess the good thing is that i just started to pick up maya, and i can only hope that i can someday buy a copy of jenna for maya.

darf, remember us faithful as you move on to maya development!

it's been fun.

michaeli
04-10-2005, 10:53 AM
It is really sad to hear this news. :sad:

ghopper
04-10-2005, 11:42 AM
Post from Duffdaddy, taken from Corearsenal Forum (http://www.corearsenal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=288)

Okay, I for one don't really want to see Jenna or CPT disappear without a fight from C4D - Can I get a show of hands from all current community members who'd undertake some work or input to assist Core/Darf in their continued development of these tools...

Here's my suggested list of what could potentially be done by both users, CA and partners:

1. Create an Online Gallery. Submit as many examples/samples of work done in CPT & Jenna for use as tutorials & promotional work on the CA site.
Where do first time surfers to CA get a sense of what these tools do? They're tools for artists right? Artists consume things with their eyes first. It's a simple rule to remember - show, don't tell!

2. Make some noise. Empower users passionate enough to be online Evangilists. Out of the 850 odd users registered on CA there are at the very least a dozen very clever folk I see regularly in 3D and Video forums all over the net - rsquires, policarpo, meesto, tcastudios, skram, bonsak, pasto, srek, flingster, Adam_T, Medicine Horse etc. etc.
I'm not sure what the payback could be but something could be worked out - but if everyone was posting nice work regularly in their favorite forums with CPT in the title of their post, it'd help immeasurably.
Who wants to Evangalise?

3. Start a Referral and Reward program. Every paid-up CA user who refers another person to purchase any CA tool gets a $20 reward or a credit to the cost of the next major upgrade - anyone who buys a CA tool via referral from an existing CA owner gets a 20% discount. I know I'd personally make more referrals if I was getting something towards my next upgrade. Anyone else?

4. Do deals - Make Partnerships. CA already knows the folks at Nextlimit, Maxon, Revision, ThirdParty and others. Cross pollenation of user bases is a great way to increase awareness for both parties and has spin-off's in other areas.
Both parties should see this step as just a means to building active users, not necessarily a money earner. Hell even if CA had to give-away a copy of CPT with every copy of RealFlow/RSMB/etc. for 6mnths it can't be bad - they're getting exposure to another user base used to using complex tools of which they're already interested in. That makes them semi-qualified leads. Anyone with complimentary software tools want to consider this?

5. Run Competitions. CGTalk, 3D Attack, PostForum, CGChannel etc. etc. would all be great candidates to run a 3D competition whose number one requirement is the use of CA tools. This kind of proposition is good for both parties involved - and if you can get sponsorship from the sites above, even better - but you've got to have something to offer them. Maybe it's regular give-aways (Jenna?), maybe it's actual work eg. 3D artwork for their own site promotion.
In fact why not run a competition in conjunction with another plug-in developer. ThirdParty's StormTracer would be a great candidate for this kind of joint competition - and just imagine the stunning results. You'd both then have more material for the promotion of CA and ThirdParty. Anyone who runs a forum who wants to help out - stick your hand up - you could potentially have a cool competition.

6. Value what you make. Vixol and Ralf are great tools with no value associated with them. Those people who actually value what Vixol and Ralf do will pay for them. $5, $10, $50 - I don't know what the price point should be - but CA should be getting something back. I use them, and I wouldn't begrudge paying for them if my $50 help fund CA development generally and meant tools like CPT and Jenna kept going. That makes more sense than not charging for them, making no money, and killing off development entirely.

My 2 cents worth. Anyone who wants to contribute please speak up - be a crying shame to loose this tool set from C4D. Lets get active and vocal!

Chrissyboy
04-10-2005, 12:45 PM
...Unfortunately, Penny and Praline are lost since 7.3.

For what it's worth, Penny and Praline both work fine in R8.5, I've kept a copy archived for this very reason. It seems they should work fine in R9 too - the previews work - but of course the serial number is tied to Cinema's serial number, and development has ceased on these, so there's no way of registering the tools I've paid for to work in R9.

:banghead:
:banghead:
:banghead:

Byla
04-10-2005, 01:36 PM
Well, one thing is for sure. They havent done much to promote these tools, 3d world does not cover the whole world so they should choose something that does. Web sites like CG talk and others. Apart from that, there is a huge lack of documentation and tutorials, but we all know that takes a lot of time to create, so there should be at least a gallery section filled with mov files of professional or amateur work done by this incredible tools. And I recon theres quite a few!

CA needed a marketing man to promote their excellent tools. It seems its too late now, but I really hope its not.

One could say maxon could help them out a bit with promotion and stuff, but to be honest, they cant even cover their own promotion well enought if you ask me. Internet has so much potential, but they are missing it. Paying ads in magazines noone reads anymore, paying banners on web sites and stuff.... that is just not enough!


Oh well, forget about me. I take this kind of stuff to personal.

mecha
04-10-2005, 01:38 PM
Finally, isn't C4D better suited for Motion Graphics than Maya ? If so, why the change to Maya ?

I think you have answered your own question! It kind of makes sense in a "find a niche in the market" sort of way. I cant really blame Darf, if he can develop CPT / Jenna / etc for Maya he will be filling a huge gap in its tool set - a gap studios will happily pay him to fill in!

mecha

Erik Heyninck
04-10-2005, 02:07 PM
My idea: the documentation/manual that came with Jenna 2 is at least up to the level of the manual that comes with TP or Mocca. And the example scenes show lots of possibilities.

The best craftsmen are not necessarily the best teachers (DiTools springs to mind) but the Jenna docs are not *that* bad.

I didn't know Praline and Penny were stable in C8, never tried...yet now the serials are lost, and probably forever. :(

darf
04-10-2005, 02:18 PM
I think you have answered your own question! It kind of makes sense in a "find a niche in the market" sort of way. I cant really blame Darf, if he can develop CPT / Jenna / etc for Maya he will be filling a huge gap in its tool set - a gap studios will happily pay him to fill in!

mecha

As I have stated before my main goal was never money. I create tools we use in the studio and for my own use. These tools were then made available to the community. It has been that way from the beginning ( although I depended on the income to live for a few years, we did not create tools to make money, what can be said, I am strange that way ).

The Conducter's Program from Alias and the MAYA SDK ( including documenation ) are very good as well as Alias be quick to respond to issues or questions. I can concept, create, debug, and refine in much less time. This is required for hard core production. Working with a team is much different than trying to produce something on your own.

David Farmer

michaeli
04-10-2005, 02:42 PM
One could say maxon could help them out a bit with promotion and stuff, but to be honest, they cant even cover their own promotion well enought if you ask me. Internet has so much potential, but they are missing it. Paying ads in magazines noone reads anymore, paying banners on web sites and stuff.... that is just not enough!



Seconded that totally!
Not only Jenna/CPT but also C4D need a good marketing and PR. For example, there are lots of users who are impressed by the Modo’s flexible UI customization but don’t know C4D has this for years! It can explain why lots of big plugin developers (Vray,CAT for example, NL will do but C4D is not their top 3 priority as we know) won’t create plugins for C4D, they just don’t know C4D is so powerful and has already have a so big market penetration. Good product is not enough in this white-hot completion market, good PR and marketing is as important as good products too.

Erik Heyninck
04-10-2005, 03:37 PM
Darf, I see that you are still following this thread. So one direct question: how many copies of Jenna 3 would you like to see pre-ordered to give it a go and not get all your work completely lost? I remember that only the documentation had to be finished, so the plugin *ought* to be ready.

There's a lot of talking here, but a pre-order would really show where the balance swings to.

Despite it was to be given for free to users who paid for J1, 2, I am willing to pay a reasonable upgrade price. And I'm shure I'm not alone.

Wouldn't it be better to leave/move to Maya after J3? Or do you prefer an unfinished symphony?

darf
04-10-2005, 04:08 PM
Darf, I see that you are still following this thread. So one direct question: how many copies of Jenna 3 would you like to see pre-ordered to give it a go and not get all your work completely lost? I remember that only the documentation had to be finished, so the plugin *ought* to be ready.

There's a lot of talking here, but a pre-order would really show where the balance swings to.

Despite it was to be given for free to users who paid for J1, 2, I am willing to pay a reasonable upgrade price. And I'm shure I'm not alone.

Wouldn't it be better to leave/move to Maya after J3? Or do you prefer an unfinished symphony?

I have been following this thread because I want users to move on, not get angry about that which they cannot change. Continuing on my previous path was no longer viable ( personally or commercially ).

Support those that can produce the tools you want for C4D! They are your future and they are very capable.

I must now refrain from posting again as doing so is interpreted as development interest.

Good Journey To You All!

Best Regards,
David Farmer

ernia
04-10-2005, 04:27 PM
But before you go, would you at least say what will become of your software children? At least put them up for adoption. Won't you say something on their behalf?!
ernia

AdamT
04-10-2005, 04:40 PM
Hmm, I thought J3 was supposed to be a paid upgrade for J2 owners, but free-J2 people were to pay full price.

It would be an awful waste not to release J3 if it's finished. How about putting it up at a reduced price with the caveat that C+A will provide absolutely no support and minimal or no documentation? I'm sure you have some sample scenes laying around....

ernia
04-10-2005, 05:17 PM
Mr. Darf, it seems odd to me that someone would dump five years of their life into something and then, at the drop of a hat, remain completely indifferent about it. I fear this attitute may become contagious unless you speak up. You've stated clearly that you have no more intention of involvement in these issues. Fine. Perhaps you could see the benefits of this Harvest Moon on your software and release what has been written already, for a premature winter brings no harvest at all. If you need non-programming help with something because you haven't the time, I offer it.

How about it?
ernia

AdamT
04-10-2005, 05:40 PM
I would also volunteer my help to write the manuals. I'd propose trying to figure out as much as I could from whatever materials exist, then maybe spend an hour or two chatting with Darf to try and figure out the rest.

Byla
04-10-2005, 06:59 PM
Something has to be done, we cant just give up like that. I mean, this tools are future bringers, not something that can be thrown away that easily...

Chrissyboy
04-10-2005, 07:56 PM
... so there should be at least a gallery section filled with mov files of professional or amateur work done by this incredible tools. .

Well, you could always check CoreAudioVisual, there's a Pontiac spot below - this is incredibly stylish work!

http://www.coreaudiovisual.com/spotpages/pontiac.html

Continuumx
04-10-2005, 08:00 PM
The action of programs left with no future purpose is definitely a life event taken from the script of the the Maxtrix Revolutions:

So what happens to programs that are updated, replaced or no longer with a purpose?

The Oracle:(summarized)

They face two choices, deletion or exile.

So it seems J2.2, 3 are to face exile.

Not a very good choice for so useful and purposeful a program.

flingster
04-10-2005, 08:43 PM
still very down about this.


if darf stops development for c4d for the current toolsuite then we are pretty stuffed imo.

J2 = functionality not found elsewhere, how and where do we go to find that functionality?
are maxon likely to improve instance toolset to this degree...unlikely and that is just a small part of the functionality available in j2.
Can maxon take this on?
would maxon want or be willing to take it on?
darf/corearsenal would no doubt require financial compensation for their hard work and would anyone be willing to pay that?
can another plugin developer continue where darf left on under license maybe?
does corearsenal intend to kill off the tool by preventing any further development of it?
who owns the code/plugins corearsenal or darf?
what happens are c4d R9.5 or R10....no more jenna a daunting prospect for us current users to step back and say ok i can live without these tools on a day to day basis...and i no long need that functionality in c4d? i know i can't say that...i need/want to be able to continue using these wonderful plugins like jenna or loco...and my mouth watered at the prospects of J3 and a new material system like FM!

then if you user realflow where you gonna go? are next limit gonna pick this up, would darf/corearsenal sell it to them? would they be prepared to buy it...etc etc...more questions than answers.

loco...how the hell i will survive without stepchild i've no idea. but then all those users of thing like Stormtracer i would imagine would hate to lose it...then if you want to work with particles wheres the alternative? doesn't exist...will maxon take it on...etc etc just masses of questions here.

i'm currently using R8.5 and was planning on upgrading to R9 where does that leave me now...as i have j2 and loco...how do i, can i get my serials for R9 in the future? its very frustrating...and to just sit back and think yeah sure this is fine to lose all this investment in financial terms...but also investment in learning/experience only to be not able to use it again in a new version is frankly madness. THERE SIMPLY HAS TO BE A BETTER SOLUTION FOR USERS DARF....please rack that brain of yours fella cos i'm beginning to feel the pain just thinking about a prospect of a c4d upgrade without using a darfster tool in it!

i wish you well bud...but i'm hoping we/you can come up with something better than a close the doors no longer...close shop scenario...these tools are better than that...the time you put in is worth more...and the love of users to those tools has to be worth more than that.
until then...that resignation is on hold and still not accepted bud...your still on a loaner! heh heh.

RangTang
04-10-2005, 09:26 PM
Issue one: registration numbers for plugins should be on file at maxon so when up-grades happen, of which one never knows when that will be, or the developer drops-out or the developer dies then the plugin will still possibly work in future.

Issue two: It would be nice, it fact very nice, if maxon would buy plugins from the developers.
The only one that I know of is SLA which was almost as if they had to buy so as not to have a mass user base revolt. Adobe rewards their plugin developers, lightwave has rewarded theirs and autodesk 3d max has added bought plugins to add to their product. Maxon has been lucky to have some of the best plugins developed for their package and they seem to me not to show much appreciation ($$$) for the efforts.
I think this is a long term issue which because of corporate style won't be addressed, but I do think it is an issue that is directly related to the core arsenal situation.

Chrissyboy
04-10-2005, 09:46 PM
Maxon has been lucky to have some of the best plugins developed for their package and they seem to me not to show much appreciation ($$$) for the efforts...

Cough*MESHSURGERY*cough

Still got a bad taste in my mouth about that one...

C

Daoine
04-10-2005, 10:06 PM
I offered above to assist financially, in order to keep c4d development of his plugs alive. Of course, this is heavily dependant on many factors that I just don't know about, so... The point is, if CA thinks that the market isn't here anymore (as well as some other factors, I know, but this is the biggest) and is, at this point, willing to accept a zero marketshare in c4d, then putting some coin in there pockets and accepting royalty checks, is just a much better outcome for them, and us. At least that's how I see it.

Now, maybe this departure isn't "once and for all". Maybe there is a plan for CA to return to c4d development. I don't know, but it's not too unlikely. In which case, I'm sure CA would want to keep solitary control of their c4d plugins; totally understandable. But keeping them from us while we wait for Core to flip flop back over to us is gonna leave a sour taste in our mouths.

I know, it wasn't about money in the beginning. But let's face it, it's business now. It is about money. There's nothing wrong with that; that's business. It's not all about money, it takes a lot of heart to be successful. I don't agree with CA's decision to cease c4d development, but obviously we can't simply convince them to reconsider.

So far, it's a big shame,

Daoine

Duffdaddy
04-10-2005, 10:19 PM
--EDIT--
Woops, sorry, someone had already posted my rant below from Core here on my behalf. Sorry to repeat myself. However, going by the activity in this thread, I think Core/Darf should think about this a little further if they can allow themselves to do so...
--
Okay, I for one don't really want to see Jenna or CPT disappear without a fight from C4D - Can I get a show of hands from all current community members who'd undertake some work or input to assist Core/Darf in their continued development of these tools...

Here's my suggested list of what could potentially be done by both users, CA and partners:

1. Create an Online Gallery. Submit as many examples/samples of work done in CPT & Jenna for use as tutorials & promotional work on the CA site.
Where do first time surfers to CA get a sense of what these tools do? They're tools for artists right? Artists consume things with their eyes first. It's a simple rule to remember - show, don't tell!

2. Make some noise. Empower users passionate enough to be online Evangilists. Out of the 850 odd users registered on CA there are at the very least a dozen very clever folk I see regularly in 3D and Video forums all over the net - rsquires, policarpo, meesto, tcastudios, skram, bonsak, pasto, srek, flingster, Adam_T, Medicine Horse etc. etc.
I'm not sure what the payback could be but something could be worked out - but if everyone was posting nice work regularly in their favorite forums with CPT in the title of their post, it'd help immeasurably.
Who wants to Evangalise?

3. Start a Referral and Reward program. Every paid-up CA user who refers another person to purchase any CA tool gets a $20 reward or a credit to the cost of the next major upgrade - anyone who buys a CA tool via referral from an existing CA owner gets a 20% discount. I know I'd personally make more referrals if I was getting something towards my next upgrade. Anyone else?

4. Do deals - Make Partnerships. CA already knows the folks at Nextlimit, Maxon, Revision, ThirdParty and others. Cross pollenation of user bases is a great way to increase awareness for both parties and has spin-off's in other areas.
Both parties should see this step as just a means to building active users, not necessarily a money earner. Hell even if CA had to give-away a copy of CPT with every copy of RealFlow/RSMB/etc. for 6mnths it can't be bad - they're getting exposure to another user base used to using complex tools of which they're already interested in. That makes them semi-qualified leads. Anyone with complimentary software tools want to consider this?

5. Run Competitions. CGTalk, 3D Attack, PostForum, CGChannel etc. etc. would all be great candidates to run a 3D competition whose number one requirement is the use of CA tools. This kind of proposition is good for both parties involved - and if you can get sponsorship from the sites above, even better - but you've got to have something to offer them. Maybe it's regular give-aways (Jenna?), maybe it's actual work eg. 3D artwork for their own site promotion.
In fact why not run a competition in conjunction with another plug-in developer. ThirdParty's StormTracer would be a great candidate for this kind of joint competition - and just imagine the stunning results. You'd both then have more material for the promotion of CA and ThirdParty. Anyone who runs a forum who wants to help out - stick your hand up - you could potentially have a cool competition.

6. Value what you make. Vixol and Ralf are great tools with no value associated with them. Those people who actually value what Vixol and Ralf do will pay for them. $5, $10, $50 - I don't know what the price point should be - but CA should be getting something back. I use them, and I wouldn't begrudge paying for them if my $50 help fund CA development generally and meant tools like CPT and Jenna kept going. That makes more sense than not charging for them, making no money, and killing off development entirely.

My 2 cents worth. Anyone who wants to contribute please speak up - be a crying shame to loose this tool set from C4D. Lets get active and vocal!

imashination
04-10-2005, 10:20 PM
Issue one: registration numbers for plugins should be on file at maxon so when up-grades happen, of which one never knows when that will be, or the developer drops-out or the developer dies then the plugin will still possibly work in future.

Issue two: It would be nice, it fact very nice, if maxon would buy plugins from the developers.
The only one that I know of is SLA which was almost as if they had to buy so as not to have a mass user base revolt. Adobe rewards their plugin developers, lightwave has rewarded theirs and autodesk 3d max has added bought plugins to add to their product. Maxon has been lucky to have some of the best plugins developed for their package and they seem to me not to show much appreciation ($$$) for the efforts.
I think this is a long term issue which because of corporate style won't be addressed, but I do think it is an issue that is directly related to the core arsenal situation.

How can you possibly point the finger of blame at maxon for not doing someone else's job?

1) The plugin developer chooses to add serials, if they shut down then it isnt someone else's job to keep it running

2) The plugin developer chooses to tie these down to the maxon serial. If they want to tie the plugin to a specific version of the software, then that is their choice and they have to put in the work to keep people up to date. They could just as easily not tie it to another serial.

3) Why on earth should maxon buy plugins from developers? if they are viable money makers, they will make money, if they are not then they won't, thats life. Every plugin maxon buys, pumps up the price. Think about that before you suggest they go out and buy half the planet.

We all choose what to make and do, if our products had bombed then we would not expect in the slightest that maxon should come running along and throw money at us for the effort we put in.

4) In what way have autodesk, newtek and adobe rewarded their plugin developers? You mean by buying the plugins? Now look at what you have; max is a huge crashy thing made of plugins, newtek got bitched at because their new version didnt have much but plugins that people already owned, and what has adobe bought?

5) It took months (years?) to properly add SLA from the date they bought it. This is no bad comment against the developers, but bringing in third party stuff always seems the least well done parts. The flash exporter isnt great, pyrocluster is a PITA, radiosity is splotchy etc. It just always seems to not work as well as It could.

This is just my opinion, but there seems to be a lack of promotion. I never/rarely see any of bhodinet/cidertank/core arsenal's stuff being promoted. How many places sell them? retailers, distributors, advertising banners? usable websites with info, magazine promotions, giveaways, press releases, bundled with other items...

The first real bit of promotion ive seen for darfs stuff was the 3d world thing. When I saw it I thought 'hey cool, at last they've pulled their finger out and started getting it out there' The full page ad was nice and original but so..... obscure and art-farty that I didn't know what it was for until about 3 weeks after seeing it, when it finally clicked.

This is my opinion, and im not saying these promotional things have never happened, just that Ive never come across them.

rsquires
04-10-2005, 10:43 PM
It's Monday morning in Australia and I have been following this thread most of the weekend. It ranks about 8th on the most viewed threads with 100 replies and 4500 views, which is pretty incredible considering it's only been going a short time. I take solice from this in that it must be important for users to get so vocal about this issue. It seems to be a rather important topic of conversation for various reasons but most importantly I think people want to know what the future holds, especially regarding updates(cinema 10,11, etc).

The way in which this news has broken in a casual aside in another topic, is strange and
disconcerting. The silence from CA is deafening, with not a word on their forum. We need to hear a definitive answer to what the future holds for these tools more than anything else.

As sad as I am about this, and believe me I have spent the weekend pondering this disturbing news, I think it is time for Core to stand up and give us the cold hard facts . Unfortunately I and many others have taken these plugins for granted. I use them on a daily basis and they have enhanced my workflow exponentially. I cannot think when I wouldn't use Vixol. Step Child is a godsend and Jenna well, a day doesn't go by in which I don't use it in some form or other. They are so part of the fabric of my installation of cinema now, that I just dont think about it.

Please Core we know your'e busy but can we get some answers please?

regards

richard

ThirdEye
04-10-2005, 10:50 PM
How can you possibly point the finger of blame at maxon for not doing someone else's job?

1) The plugin developer chooses to add serials, if they shut down then it isnt someone else's job to keep it running

2) The plugin developer chooses to tie these down to the maxon serial. If they want to tie the plugin to a specific version of the software, then that is their choice and they have to put in the work to keep people up to date. They could just as easily not tie it to another serial.

3) Why on earth should maxon buy plugins from developers? if they are viable money makers, they will make money, if they are not then they won't, thats life. Every plugin maxon buys, pumps up the price. Think about that before you suggest they go out and buy half the planet.

We all choose what to make and do, if our products had bombed then we would not expect in the slightest that maxon should come running along and throw money at us for the effort we put in.

4) In what way have autodesk, newtek and adobe rewarded their plugin developers? You mean by buying the plugins? Now look at what you have; max is a huge crashy thing made of plugins, newtek got bitched at because their new version didnt have much but plugins that people already owned, and what has adobe bought?

5) It took months (years?) to properly add SLA from the date they bought it. This is no bad comment against the developers, but bringing in third party stuff always seems the least well done parts. The flash exporter isnt great, pyrocluster is a PITA, radiosity is splotchy etc. It just always seems to not work as well as It could.

This is just my opinion, but there seems to be a lack of promotion. I never/rarely see any of bhodinet/cidertank/core arsenal's stuff being promoted. How many places sell them? retailers, distributors, advertising banners? usable websites with info, magazine promotions, giveaways, press releases, bundled with other items...

The first real bit of promotion ive seen for darfs stuff was the 3d world thing. When I saw it I thought 'hey cool, at last they've pulled their finger out and started getting it out there' The full page ad was nice and original but so..... obscure and art-farty that I didn't know what it was for until about 3 weeks after seeing it, when it finally clicked.

This is my opinion, and im not saying these promotional things have never happened, just that Ive never come across them.

i love this guy, perfect reply Mash, you saved me some typing

ghopper
04-10-2005, 10:57 PM
Yes, some answers would be nice:



What happens to users who bought Core Particle Tools, but have not upgraded to C4D 9
yet ? Will serial numbers still be issued, after development has ceased ?
What's the status of Jenna3 ? Some users mentioned it seems to be almost ready. Is a release planned ?
Are you willing to license or sell the source code of CPT and Jenna ?


Thanks

tcastudios
04-10-2005, 11:02 PM
Let's be real. We have a fantastic resource that is dedicated, willing and hot, digging into Cinema for real and for times to come as it seems. Reading between the lines of Darf I would say he must be thinking of Renato. Give him support by buying his two must have plugins, PathDeformer and NOTA.
Do it now,all of you, so he could be even more productive and to show him our support.
Carefully suggest functions to him in as constructive way as possible and we'll have a goldmine.
I am as sad as anyone else using CoreArsenal stuff each and every day and was standing on my toes waiting for the Response to turn up.

We win.

Cheers
Lennart

metagrey
04-10-2005, 11:51 PM
im new here, and sorry to add to the speculation, but...

could be CA has other plans for Jenna development that dont include C4D (maybe with Alias; hence the lack of details) :shrug:

as i said : just speculation but in the absence of more info...



roger

Lovas
04-11-2005, 12:04 AM
I can imagine how the people who used to rely heavily on use of Jenna or some other Coarsenal plugin in their production pipeline, now might feel...:eek: :scream:

Just another prove of my practice to avoid using (and thus becoming addicted to) plugins and try to resolve problems in the standard tools that come with the program whenever possible. Plugins can be time-saviers in certain situations - but I still have to see a plugin that does something that can not be done at all with standard Cinema tools - given enough time and what's more important, enough knowledge of the program. (And if there is such a plugin, we'll probably see it built in the next release of C4D...:) )

Besides that, more automatisation (and plugins are exactly that) usually means less control. Some tools in Jenna are good examples - you can do wonderful things while playing with them or testing them, with just a couple of clicks - non-linear repeated, rescaled objects etc. But when you have already a concept or idea how exactly you want your final result to be - there's so much fiddling with the plugin that one might consider doing the work "manually" in the same time and even faster...

So I'm not crying for the Corearsenal leaving. I'd be crying for Maxon leaving:) .

I'd exchange all the plugins in the world for a decent, MEL- or Python-like scripting language, built in Cinema 4D...

JIII
04-11-2005, 12:35 AM
Says the man who can code! lol

rsquires
04-11-2005, 12:50 AM
I can imagine how the people who used to rely heavily on use of Jenna or some other Coarsenal plugin in their production pipeline, now might feel...:eek: :scream:

but I still have to see a plugin that does something that can not be done at all with standard Cinema tools - given enough time and what's more important, enough knowledge of the program. (And if there is such a plugin, we'll probably see it built in the next release of C4D...:) )
.

I agree in part with what you are saying. Plugins don't make the work and shouldn't be relied on. However the plugins we are discussing go so far beyond just luxuries in my opinion. I have many examples which I am getting together of how a "non programming" animator can produce cool stuff by using these plugins.

As to your question about plugins that can't be done with Cinema tools.

Vixol. Output of vectors for motion blur. There is no way to do this other than using vixol. Yes you can use cinemas motion blur but it takes forever, isn't that good unless you use scene at 25 times, and once it is done you can't change it.

If you are a motion graphics designer and want to use motion blur (which in my opinion is essential) then either you use a render farm or my preferred route now use vixol and reel smart motion blur in After Effects. Time is the factor here. Turnaround is usually very quick and adding motion blur always makes stuff look more professional and slicker. There are some things you can't do with it, but with a bit of planning it can add an extra layer of polish to an otherwise mediocre job.

regards

Richard

bobtronic
04-11-2005, 01:38 AM
...but I still have to see a plugin that does something that can not be done at all with standard Cinema tools - given enough time and what's more important, enough knowledge of the program. (And if there is such a plugin, we'll probably see it built in the next release of C4D...:) )...

I guess Stormtracer is such a plugin.

Bob

Blur1
04-11-2005, 01:54 AM
I was interested to use Cinema4D because of the direction Vixol was being developed in (Vixol Pro) and the general post-shader workflow using Vixol passes in Shake/AE. If Core make these tools available on the Maya platform then I will consider going back to Maya...although I was looking forward to using Cinema because it seems more fun and intuitive. It's also worth keeping in mind that Vixol-like capabilities are already available for Maya users, but if a slickly-packaged 3D/2D workflow is offered up by Core/Darf then to me that is worth pursuing.

Continuumx
04-11-2005, 02:23 AM
Issue one: registration numbers for plugins should be on file at maxon so when up-grades happen, of which one never knows when that will be, or the developer drops-out or the developer dies then the plugin will still possibly work in future.

Issue two: It would be nice, it fact very nice, if maxon would buy plugins from the developers.
The only one that I know of is SLA which was almost as if they had to buy so as not to have a mass user base revolt. Adobe rewards their plugin developers, lightwave has rewarded theirs and autodesk 3d max has added bought plugins to add to their product. Maxon has been lucky to have some of the best plugins developed for their package and they seem to me not to show much appreciation ($$$) for the efforts.
I think this is a long term issue which because of corporate style won't be addressed, but I do think it is an issue that is directly related to the core arsenal situation.

I think I am just going to be very careful now about whom I purchase plugins from and very frugal about what I might purchase because I cannot stand this recent anomaly of late of plugins disappearing - Mesh Surgery, was one of the most expensive, and yet, useful- I used it every day until I installed Release 9. 6 months out, I still miss it!

spirozero
04-11-2005, 02:30 AM
Reading between the lines of Darf I would say he must be thinking of Renato. Give him support by buying his two must have plugins, PathDeformer and NOTA.
Do it now,all of you, so he could be even more productive and to show him our support.

This is what I was hinting at back on page 3 of this thread. We need to throw our support behind Renato. I have PD and Nota. They're both amazing plugins. I have no doubt that Renato could develop a plugin that easily rivals Jenna.

There is still hope!

rsquires
04-11-2005, 03:08 AM
I just wanted to put up a Vixol explanation to all peoplewho are interested, to show the power of this plugin.

For movies showing passes required for Vixol go to:

http://homepage.mac.com/rsquires/vixol/vixol_passes3ivx.mov

and to see how vixol and reelsmart motionblur work together to create great motion blur

http://homepage.mac.com/rsquires/vixol/vixol_comp3ivx.mov

Also see the gif for how to set up for Vixol in After Effects

regards

Richard

PS On a side note the 9 balls were animated with NOTA the new plugin by Renato Tarabella that rocks big time indeed.

JDP
04-11-2005, 03:10 AM
Mesh Surgery, was one of the most expensive, and yet, useful- I used it every day until I installed Release 9. 6 months out, I still miss it!

Per announced on his site that Mesh Surgery has recently gone into beta phase for R9, so hopefully it will be back soon.:)

rsquires
04-11-2005, 04:22 AM
Here's another of what I like to call real world uses of Jenna, and CPT.

This sequence was used as an end tag to an opener for the US Golf Championship coverage last year. It was also up-dateable with text being redone for the other championships.

see it here:

http://homepage.mac.com/rsquires/usopen/golf-usopen-3ivx.mov

Instead of doing all elements within one Cinema scene I tend to use a mixture of elements that I then take into After Effects and play with. So I shot a coworker swinging a club, not brilliant i know but had to do in the time and limited (ie none ) budget. I also created a rotating golf ball, and ball background.This is the element that is out of focus in the background with Frischlufts Lenscare plugin. See the attached gif for a screen shot of the cinema project.

It's your basic sphere mesh populated with small golf balls using mesharray. To control the density I created an animating shader that controls the size of the spheres. This is accessed by Mesharray to scale the objects across the mesh.

The most important aspect of the design was the swoosh that was inspired by Core's work and particularly Kent Oberhau's beautiful abstract work. I wanted to illustrate the golf swing, and trajectory of a ball in an abstract and signature way. See the set up in the attached gif too.

The meat of this is a spline duplicated with iterator 100 times. It's parameters are animated to allow it to open across the screen. This is then given a skin by using step child which takes the virtual object jenna creates and makes individual objects. These objects go inside a loft nurbs. If you haven't used step child then you ain't lived!! It is given a transparent fresnel green material to allow all the creases and curves to show through.


I did a few experiments with this and eventually came up with something that I liked. It's a bit hit and miss but it's like a live action shoot in many a respect. You never know what you are going to get and sometimes it's the happy accident and the play that provides you with a great solution. After this I resolved to add play time to my project development. It's such an important aspect and one that unfortunately often gets overlooked.

Final additions were text animation and some 3d stroke for some of the light trails.

This whole project as you can see would not have been possible without Core's fabulous tools.

regards

Richard

Lovas
04-11-2005, 07:48 AM
Says the man who can code! lol

:) Actually if I could really code, I wouldn't be waiting so eagerly for a scripting language - I'd do all in C.O.F.F.E.E or C++. They are more effective but unfortunatelly more or less useless for us ordinary (non-programmer) guys. On the other side scripting languages like MEL or Python are based on the BASIC and its simple logic. MEL is actually the only thing that I find very useful in Maya compared to Cinema 4D (well... almost... :twisted: :) ).

As to your question about plugins that can't be done with Cinema tools. Vixol.

I know what you mean - but I can tell you I was doing some great motion-blurring in post with RSMB long before the Vixol even existed. As you probably know, RSMB can do it also by calculating motion vectors from pixel motion in your animation frames. I agree that the results were not so smooth as when using Vixol, though, and I have no doubt we well see the plugin (or something very similar, doing the some job :thumbsup: :) but with different name) built in in one of the following releases of C4D...

rsquires
04-11-2005, 08:24 AM
I know what you mean - but I can tell you I was doing some great motion-blurring in post with RSMB long before the Vixol even existed. As you probably know, RSMB can do it also by calculating motion vectors from pixel motion in your animation frames. I agree that the results were not so smooth as when using Vixol, though, and I have no doubt we well see the plugin (or something very similar, doing the some job :thumbsup: :) but with different name) built in in one of the following releases of C4D...


So was I. But Vixol is much more accurate and lovely:)

I hope they put something like this in Cinema. It's very useful indeed

regards

rich

lllab
04-11-2005, 08:42 AM
well after thinking about the weekend about it, i really think maxon should buy all the core plugins.

it will loose a lot of professionality if those tools are not available to this platform any more.
buying sla was a great thing, at least for the users.
incoorporating all the corearsenal-jenna-vixol-ralpf fetures into the cinema app would be essential in my eyes.

but i am quite sure for the bad relytion ship between maxon and darf, that maxon will let it die, no matter what its users think.

cheers, very sad all this
lllab

belushy
04-11-2005, 08:50 AM
really bad news
Somehow c4d seems to get stuck in development.
some of the more interesting developers seem to be somehow demotivated to continue
but maybe this is also a sales problem. i mean these plugin aren't simple and take, I guess some time to develop.
but is it worth to do this work?

cheers

belushy

Srek
04-11-2005, 09:10 AM
really bad news
Somehow c4d seems to get stuck in development.
some of the more interesting developers seem to be somehow demotivated to continue


I would be interested to learn to know from what you derive this.

Cheers
Björn

bobtronic
04-11-2005, 09:26 AM
I don't know as I see it there is actually a real plugin boom in the last time. We have many
new developers and the latest plugins by our plugin gurus like Per and Paul are simply
awesome. Then there is Samir's DPIT and Cactus Dan's character tools. Quite a good
number of new and good plugins if you ask.

Bob

lllab
04-11-2005, 09:44 AM
it would really not say stuck, see bobtronic, paul, samir and some others,

BUT i lost one of the most talented (maybe complicated) plugin programmer. one that did BIG plugins, for das he was/is no selling genious.
but it is really bad for c4d.

stefan

ThirdEye
04-11-2005, 09:58 AM
really bad news
Somehow c4d seems to get stuck in development.
some of the more interesting developers seem to be somehow demotivated to continue
but maybe this is also a sales problem. i mean these plugin aren't simple and take, I guess some time to develop.
but is it worth to do this work?

cheers

belushy

Sorry to sound defensive but... First of all you're talking about the app with the fastest development on the market, look at where C4D was 5 years ago and look at where it's now. Seconly i disagree also about the lack of external developers, in the last year/2 years we've seen so many new plugin developers for C4D, and they look promising too. For example Renato, mdme_sadie and bobtronic, to name a few. They all have written some nice piece of code. I am sorry to hear Darf quits, but this is no end of the world, maybe someone else will fill the hole he's leaving here, do you really think no one will develop instance plugins for C4D once he leaves? I'm prepared to see a lot of them since there's a new niche in the C4D plugins development.

Alberto.

Ernest Burden
04-11-2005, 10:06 AM
Well, if nothing else, you've all gotten me to go get the 3DWorld magfor the CD, which I did yesterday.

Plugins are great, especially recently, and I've bought and DLed (the free ones) a whole pile lately...BUT...we should expect the core program to provide many of these tools itself. It is hard to identify and plan what function to add, I'm sure, for Maxon. But helper apps often fill holes that perhaps shouldn't be there.

The problem with Maxon responding to these holes is that if they always see what plugs are written then match the function they would be sytematicly putting their 3rd party plug writers out-of-business, which discourages anyone from developing plugs in the first place.

Are we seeing that here?

ThirdEye
04-11-2005, 10:08 AM
The problem with Maxon responding to these holes is that if they always see what plugs are written then match the function they would be sytematicly putting their 3rd party plug writers out-of-business, which discourages anyone from developing plugs in the first place.

Are we seeing that here?

No, we're not, at least not here. I still have to see Maxon matching StormTracer for example. And i'm sure they know the sprites problem is well accomplished by StormTracer. And i'm just making an example here.

Byla
04-11-2005, 10:17 AM
Just a thought regarding maxon buying these plugins

To be honest, I cant see a direct implementation of Jenna in the Cinema possible. I mean, how would you name the function? Where would you put it in the GUI? As what? Its a very specialized piece of software that one needs for very special stuff. But putting it in would I guess cause quite some headaches for the Cinema GUI architects. Where to put it, how to implement it?

What I am trying to say is that just buying a plugin is not all. You have to make sure that it works with all the functions related to it, you have to find a logical place for it in the Cinema architecture and you need to make sure that the whole thing has a developing future and that is being developed for the people to use it, not just to look at it. And from that perspective, Jenna serves its mission as a plugin, not as an integral part of Cinema.

CPT is a different story I guess, but still.

We all know this is very sad event and we all kinna hope that solution will come... And we all kinna hope that Maxon should do something. Yes, I do agree they should do something, but I guess its just not that easy. The fact is, Maxon is observing these events and they should make a judgment call on their own. We, as a user and internet community, have to be loud in cases like this, but what else can we do?

I would personaly really kinna hate being a member of Maxon lead team. I mean, you have character animators to look after, who are pissed over the bad CA tools in cinema, then you have architects who would all like to have spottless GI renders, then you have motion graphics artists whos wish is to have a much much better timeline and curve editor plus Jenna, CPT..., then you have generalists like me, who want noodle based material editor, even better modelling tools, for crying out loud less bugs in bodypaint, mental ray integration, simple tools like center axis and freeze transformation, MEL kinna scripting, goddamn Linux support and stuff like that. And then you have dynamic freaks...... and the list goes on and on and on. So who would be your priority? I guess so far motion graphics artists have had the main role in the whole thing. But what happens in the future? Is the present priority buying Jenna, CPT.. and integrate these tools in future Cinema releases? Dont know. But I do feel that these tools, at least some of them, serve their function as plugins just as well. With only one negative thing: it seems that developing guys have stoped working on them (at least for us, Cinema users)

Maxon is not as big as Discreet, AVID or Alias. Not yet. Have a feeling they dont even want to be that big. But the problem is, can they keep up. I am sure they can. At least on most fields. And for the majority of users.

PetrolUk
04-11-2005, 10:22 AM
I know this has been said many times in this thread but the biggest lesson here for all the plugin developers is marketing. I've been a 2d compositor for many years now as a mograph designer, plugins like these encouraged me to purchase Cinema4d, and incorporate it in to my workflow. I took the plunge with CA tools which was expensive as I had to also upgrade to thinking particles. It took a lot of convincing to shell out the cash as the CA website is so sparse. Jenna was the prime example. I read all the posts on the forums saying how great it was but could I find out what it was!!! I had to take a trip to several newsagents just to find 3dworld and see what the fuss was about. It's a fantastic plugin and one I can't believe I nearly missed and was so poorly marketed. Had I seen some great examples I would have gladly paid for such a great set of tools. Renato got it right with N.O.T.A. with some great working examples. After visiting his site to buy NOTA I was so impressed that I also bought his Pathdeformer plugin.

It's only a few years ago when I was just another guy working on tiny jobs from his spare room. I got a decent website with plenty of examples of my work, advertised myself and discreet logic also featured a small profile in their Combustion showcase section. Without this who is to know who you are, what you do and what great things we're all capable of. These small things lead onto bigger and better jobs like for me the 32 meter CocaCola LCD in Piccadilly circus Ok I'm still in my spare room but I have a 32 meter showreel and more work than I can keep up with a lot of the time

David

rsquires
04-11-2005, 10:54 AM
Without this who is to know who you are, what you do and what great things we're all capable of. These small things lead onto bigger and better jobs like for me the 32 meter CocaCola LCD in Piccadilly circus Ok I'm still in my spare room but I have a 32 meter showreel and more work than I can keep up with a lot of the time

David

love the site and the film fx stuff looks great. Did that use Jenna by the way?

I too am a free lance designer working out of home with too much work now. Although I haven't been as good doing a website like your good self. I just can't find the time.

I see you used Rob Harvey at Lola. If you see him again say Reg Squires says hello. I used to work with him ages ago when he was at Cell Animation back in the early 90's. In fact he did the harry work on one of the first things I ever did.

send him my best

regards

Richard ( reg ) Squires

Wenzel_S
04-11-2005, 11:18 AM
...to expect 1000 registrations from a magazin that has a circulation of 15k, which would be a terrific reponse rate of over 6% of the readers. IMO 1% would qualify to be really successful. You probably could get much more registrations if you would choose European magazines with a much greater circulation or if you had try to find someone who had hosted this as a download.

Regarding availability: I tried to get the magazine here in Munich with no luck at all.
Kabe

Dear Darf,
same with me. I treid to get issue 62, 63 or 64 here in Düsseldorf/Germany. No chance.
It was around for years but its now replaced by german 3d mags. I even sent somebody off to London to get that thing. He checked several newsstands and design bookstores. Same result. Btw 3D World is published in London.

Hey darf. Its 2005. Why not making a simple dowload?

I bougt cpt. Crasy stuff but stunning. It comes with some demo files and a manual with a nice grafikdesign but no real tutorials. No lively forum. It has a VERY steep learning curve with the uncertainty to achieve exactily what I want. Some stuff is cryptic. The juwels of darf´s work are always covered by a layer of inacessity. But I love it.

So if darf is not making a living. Who ever will?
Darf´s decision is questioning the c4d plugin development buisness model as a whole.

Some guess work:
a company of three people needs a least $10000 a month to have a decent life in an urban area (and some pizzas). For a very good plugin you will get probably $200. But you have to sell 500 copies every month to stay in buissness. You will need at least 8 different plugins ans you have to renew one of them every month to gernerate traffic, publicity and income.

I hope you, darf, are re-thinking your decision.

Only a few things were missing:
Tutorials, promotion and some stuff for un-advanced users.

You have already invested to such time.
You know all the cinema insides.
You have a great reputation.
You have a brandname.

all the best, wenzel!

PetrolUk
04-11-2005, 11:44 AM
Cheers Reg
As soon as I clear this batch of work I'll have a chance to get a good look a Jenna and use it on a good job. I can't wait to be honest. And yeah I see Rob all the time and I'll say hi. It was great to work with Rob again although as an ex Flame/inferno op myself it was hard not to grab the pen every now and again. Filmflex was a Flame job, not Jenna, layers and layers of footage treated with a newprint type plugin, spaced out in the Z axis with camera moves. Although looking back it would have been a nice job for Jenna had I seen it in action

lllab
04-11-2005, 12:58 PM
well i can image jenna and cpt very good and easy in the c4d enviroment, whats the problem???

stefan

AdamT
04-11-2005, 02:16 PM
Yep, I don't see any reason Jenna couldn't be incorporated into Cinema--it's mostly a set of very good array-type generators, in the nature of the existing Array objects but obviously much more powerful. Nickl is a deformer in the nature of the wind/flag/formula deformers, etc.

Anyway, if Jenna does go away it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Maxon fill the void themselves.

JoelOtron
04-11-2005, 02:43 PM
Its not just the jenna iterator tools we are losing but cool things like stepchild, particle spline, particle tracer, the inertia node (and several others), falloff, Nickl, particle bitch, etc.

Response was a plugin we were really looking forward to as we've been doing more "sound-keys" oriented broadcast work of late. My studio mate upgraded to 9 primarily to be able to use CPT and Response once it hit the market.

Perhaps we will get another developer to fill some of the holes, but Corearsenal was much more than placing balls on a mesh. Darf built these tools because he needed them for his own work. Thats the best scenario you can get when it comes to seeing new and real solutions developed that are useful in a given field. The downside is--if you are succesful in the field itself, there are only so many hours in the day and something needs to be let go--unfortunately for us.

This is all kind of moot in a way--darf seems to have made up his mind. Lets hope we get some cools stuff from new developers, and hope that Maxon's future incarnations allow us to continue usung what we got.

RangTang
04-11-2005, 02:58 PM
This isn't about the loss of a plugin (more like 12 plugins) but the loss of talent and future development. It would be better to have darf around coding than jenna around clonning. Maybe Darf will end up making Maya a plugin for C4D.

Byla
04-11-2005, 04:23 PM
Yep, I don't see any reason Jenna couldn't be incorporated into Cinema--it's mostly a set of very good array-type generators, in the nature of the existing Array objects but obviously much more powerful. Nickl is a deformer in the nature of the wind/flag/formula deformers, etc.

Anyway, if Jenna does go away it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Maxon fill the void themselves.

Yeah, I guess you are right. I just kinna thought that Jenna works best as a plugin, but I can see now that you could implement it directly into Cinema with some tweaking.And I do hope that someone fills the void if CA quits the whole thing for good.

noseman
04-11-2005, 05:25 PM
Just want to say my opinion.
CA developed Jenna for internal use, and then marketed it. Now that they are moving to Maya maybe there isn't time to develop it further on both platforms. Or they got a deal from Alias for exclusive development on Maya.
Strictly a marketing decision.
If the Maya community would make them more money than the C4D guys, then it's a justifiable decision!
To me, simple as that.
Farewell Guys, hope for the best!

P.S. Since I'm struggling on my monitor 12 hours a day to make ends meet for my business, I would probably take a good deal without sentiment!

Continuumx
04-11-2005, 07:52 PM
Just want to say my opinion.
CA developed Jenna for internal use, and then marketed it. Now that they are moving to Maya maybe there isn't time to develop it further on both platforms. Or they got a deal from Alias for exclusive development on Maya.
Strictly a marketing decision.
If the Maya community would make them more money than the C4D guys, then it's a justifiable decision!
To me, simple as that.
Farewell Guys, hope for the best!

P.S. Since I'm struggling on my monitor 12 hours a day to make ends meet for my business, I would probably take a good deal without sentiment!

Noseman, I think you actually may be very close to the real situation, which would to some degree explain rather quick recent events. Its all strictly business.

Byla
04-11-2005, 09:28 PM
Yeah, that is for real the real situation, but the bigger problem is, why dont they see something even financially good in developing for Cinema users? That is the most worying thing. Specially when the whole thing is gaining market share, not loosing it.

flingster
04-11-2005, 10:00 PM
as joel says its so much more than losing array/instance/duplicate/arrange function and just dropping balls on balls...or just some deformer. we rely on these plugins on a daily basis a lot of us...they are integrated into out workflows they are second nature to us...they feel like c4d to us not like a plugin...so to say just do these things native is not practical or to realistic...i'm all for not relying on plugins in day to day work and learning core functionality within your software...but its like saying type a letter in excel! you just wouldn't do it...you use a word processor...the right tool for the job...and this is what these plugins are...the right tool for the job...not merely replaced by creating a script hack...furthermore i don't want to spend my creative life scripting...i want to spend it creating...vastly enabled by these plugins.

to say arh well maxon or another dev can fill the gap is not really the point...look at Mesh Surgery and R9....close, but not all functionality...granted not far off...but still in a sense a stepbackwards....and before you flame me for saying this i mean in mesh Surgery terms not in c4d terms cos overall the user was the winner by getting ngons really. So what have i got to look forward to here...a life of scripting...or a maxon clone...or neither.....jeez things are looking good...NOT.

I'm not saying its maxon's fault and it clearly isn't...darf and maxon have had their differences in the past...whether these where ever resolved or not is not really important..what is ....is that as users of these plugins we don't take a step backwards in functionality ...if its just business...then thats the way i feel.

for all those Character Animators or Modeller or Arch vis types or whatever category you fit in or want to label yourself as ... you need to understand how you would feel if functionality was stripped from c4d in its current form....eg Mocca/cactus dans tools were just removed....Ngons removed...radiosity uninstalled! yeah...gutted... maybe my use of c4d and these plugins is a little far from the norm/unorthodox but i doubt its that far, and if it is then at least you understand how i feel about losing these plugins. if you don't use them doesn't mean they are not worth having/using or you can't understand where we are coming from...maybe its a niche market/userbase....but that niche will now have to seek alternatives to formerly easy solutions in the past....that will become alot harder in the near future!

i'd love to have a statement of intent from darf/core arsenal...so we are clearer where we all stand.

ghopper
04-11-2005, 10:01 PM
Yeah, that is for real the real situation, but the bigger problem is, why dont they see something even financially good in developing for Cinema users? That is the most worying thing. Specially when the whole thing is gaining market share, not loosing it.

I guess it's because Alias seems to offer better support for 3rd party developers. Or I'm just reading into things :hmm:


...
The Conducter's Program from Alias and the MAYA SDK ( including documenation ) are very good as well as Alias be quick to respond to issues or questions. I can concept, create, debug, and refine in much less time. This is required for hard core production. Working with a team is much different than trying to produce something on your own.
...
There are some very talented developers doing stuff for C4D. Support them by purchasing the tools and by making their concerns heard by Maxon. The latter is far more important that you would believe.
...
That was an attempt to get Maxon to help in the marketing area as they were the only party to have access to the userlist. That was it. There was no money exchanging hands. Sad we had to work it that way to get press from Maxon.
...


I just hope we can somehow keep the functionality introduced by Darf's plugins in future C4D versions, be it Maxon buying the code or someother plugin developers filling the gap. Or maybe we need to use MAYA with Corearsenal tools as a "plugin" and FBX as a bridge to C4D :D

lllab
04-11-2005, 10:29 PM
"Or maybe we need to use MAYA with Corearsenal tools as a "plugin" and FBX as a bridge to C4D"

...expensive plugin!

lllab

Lovas
04-11-2005, 11:07 PM
I understand the various points expressed in this thread - different users, different areas of 3D work, different habits... That makes our worldwide community of C4D users so great :thumbsup:

Nevertheless I still don't see a reason for such a panic over the Corearsenal thing.

Existing plugins will hapilly go on functioning in the current version of C4D. And no one can say what the next version of C4D will bring us (i.e., those that could say something usefull, will keep their mouths tightly shut, of course... ;). ). Maybe the current versions of the plugins will keep on functioning in the next version of C4D as well? You don't get the development, but you actually haven't lost anything that you had before.

Too early for panicking. Alias obviously tends to buy anything off the market, not just things that might be interesting in developing maya but also everything else that is useful for user of other competitive software. Very agressive policy, practised not only by them (discreet does it too etc.). Seems to be much easier than developing the own software (which, to be sincere, only Maxon seems to be doing seriously in the last few years)

The more c4d becomes competitive and thus dangerous for their position in the market, the more agressive they'll become. We can expect more of the shti like this in the future (hope I'm wrong about this).

Look at it from the bright side. The more afraid a dog gets more loud he'll bark :). And current version of C4D, even though still running behind, is closer to maya's respective backside than it ever was.

Just my humble opinion.

MJV
04-12-2005, 02:11 AM
This is always the issues with using plugins and why I avoid them whenever possible. Plugins aren't usually maintained for long or the author goes on to something else or quits or whatever. The end result is always the same: Sooner or later your files don't work anymore plus you need to find another solution. That coupled with the headache of keeping up to date with serial numbers, for developers who use them, is good reason to avoid plugins altogether.

cookepuss
04-12-2005, 02:28 AM
You make a good point. Unfortunately, not every artist or small team has the ability to create in house tools like the bigger studios. Sometimes, plugins are a necessary evil. Time constraints on certain projects force us to take whatever shortcuts are necessary. Why reinvent the wheel when somebody has already done it for us and that much better?

I agree that to rely on plugins as a crutch is a bad habit, especially when upgrade-itis set in. On the other hand, you can't always circumvent the need for them.

rsquires
04-12-2005, 02:40 AM
Yes plugins are a pain for the reasons above, but with the sort of quick turn arounds I have to do, I need all the shortcuts I can get. Cores tools and especially CPT were created for this very purpose, to speed up workflow, and do stuff that in time pressure situations you wouldn't attempt. They make me look good by the way!

I am just doing something this very moment that uses ParticleBitch, and it would take me considerably longer and wouldn't be as good without it. In fact it would take me a day to figure out.

I guess I am going to have to keep a copy of 9 to do stuff like this. Painful but I did the same with Mesh Surgery and 8.5

I think I will have every iteration of Cinema 4D on my machine the way things are going!

bah humbug

not a happy camper

regards

Richard

Hey Cookepuss is that non "hay"nous CG monkey, or non "hee"nous CG monkey. Heinous is a great word and combined with monkey it makes me smile!

Squirrel
04-12-2005, 02:57 AM
well.. we heard a lot of arguments so far. if I were darf, I would have been melted away (someone talked about love mentioning darfs plugins) like snow under a burning summer sun (but maybe darf is made of some special steel ;))
too bad that darf stopped talking to us (we know what u have said, and we accept that), all this whining (yes.. we have emotions too) hasnt yet brought up an offical response about the future of (at least) J3. I have read several interesting ideas.. even someone has some money left and is willing to put it into the developing of darfs plugins. but there is still no official comment on what the possibilities are which satisfies both, darf on the one hand..and all the c4d users who yearn for more darf-plugins :) on the other.

can´t there be a compromise? can (at least) J3 be published by whomever? or is it true that, as someone suggested, alias bought the exclusive rights on it? it would be good to have some offical answers, it might help to see clear on this matter.

Daoine
04-12-2005, 04:01 AM
Yeah, I totally agree. If Alias now has exclusive rights to CA's plugs, the least Darf could have done is to mention that, so that we can all move on with our lives and stop speculating.

And yes, I am willing to put a financial offer Darf's way to buy development rights of some or all of his plugs, I'm just trying to find a programmer who would be willing to help, since I am not a programmer myself. So far, I've not had much luck and I don't even know if my offer would even be close to enough to attain such rights.

I'm hoping for the best,

Daoine

rsquires
04-12-2005, 04:11 AM
You know what I was thinking.

This may all have been a ploy to see how much interest there is in Core's plugins. Ha Ha

Because if that's the case they should be very happy considering this post is now the 2nd most replied to and 3rd most viewed topic. :applause:

Or really sad considering the user base they just trashed. :sad:

regards

richard

AdamT
04-12-2005, 04:18 AM
Ironically if 1/4 the people who've viewed this thread bought the plugins--or even registered the free one(!)--we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I don't see any evidence whatever that Alias has purchased Darf's stuff. It's like the kids game "Telephone"; one person wonders aloud and 80 posts later it's near fact.

policarpo
04-12-2005, 04:26 AM
**** this noise.

darf.

CA.

Get back to making it good for us.

Maya for Motion Graphics is like using sleeping pills to stay awake.

You are leaving something that is going to blossom.

If you wanna make movies, then by all means, sell your soul and time to the night to get the prodcution done in Maya...but if you wanna enable artists to marvel us on a daily basis in commercials, stick to your guns and continue the support for C4D (maybe someday we'll see support for mentalray or prm...but who cares really).

But hey...I'm just an artist like you, so um...keep the faith and push that damn envelope.

I will respect your tools either way! :thumbsup:

rsquires
04-12-2005, 04:51 AM
**** this noise

:scream::scream::scream::scream:

noise is ******* good!

Make enough noise and sooner or later someone will listen!

rich

policarpo
04-12-2005, 05:01 AM
**** this noise

:scream::scream::scream::scream:

noise is ******* good!

Make enough noise and sooner or later someone will listen!

rich

I guess you missed the intent of my post. :drool:

rsquires
04-12-2005, 05:10 AM
I guess you missed the intent of my post. :drool:

Sorry I wholeheartedly agree with you.

I have never used MAYA, and have no intention of doing so. Cinema 4D is a great tool for a motion graphic designer and as you say it is only just starting to make waves in the industry. Although I know Imaginary Forces use it consistently for their work, and there really are few companies that rival them in this field. The more tools we have like these the better I say. That's why I am very sad and frustrated to see them disappear.

richard

Srek
04-12-2005, 06:37 AM
I guess it's because Alias seems to offer better support for 3rd party developers. Or I'm just reading into things :hmm:

Better then free SDK, free SDK support and the best structured SDK in the industry?
I don't think so.

Cheers
Björn

PetrolUk
04-12-2005, 06:39 AM
The whole area of Motion Graphics is only just starting to take off. For many years it was still the domain of the big post house and heavy kit, now it seems to be the dream of every young designer leaving college. I know because like several of us here I've been doing this since the 80's. Like Policarpo says you're leaving something that's going to blossom and Cinema is emerging as the clear choice for MoGraph work. Just think at how much the entertainment industry has changed of late. We now have Tv coming to our phones, more and more plasma screens are springing up to replace posters and traditional advertising, which just means more and more motion graphics work. That's why I decided to get in to 3d recently and to main reason I chose cinema. :thumbsup:

eworc
04-12-2005, 07:44 AM
No amount of wishing and begging is going to change anything. He said that he didn't write these programs to make money...or was it that he needed 1000 registrations (sales) of the software. Confusing isn't it. Let me see....

"As I have stated before my main goal was never money. I create tools we use in the studio and for my own use. These tools were then made available to the community. It has been that way from the beginning ( although I depended on the income to live for a few years, we did not create tools to make money, what can be said, I am strange that way )."

Nope, his main reason had nothing to do with money. There were other reasons why he wrote these programs and they obviously were not being fullfilled.

chromecity
04-12-2005, 08:03 AM
Some guess work:
a company of three people needs a least $10000 a month to have a decent life in an urban area (and some pizzas). For a very good plugin you will get probably $200. But you have to sell 500 copies every month to stay in buissness. You will need at least 8 different plugins ans you have to renew one of them every month to gernerate traffic, publicity and income.This thread (tome?) has taken on a life of its own. (See what you sparked with your innocent little PF thread, Jerm??)

I didn't see where anyone else caught this, so I'll point it out. Wenzel's math needs an adjustment. It's off by an order of magnitude. Given the stated price of $200, it would take 50 copies (not 500) to achieve $10000 a month for that scenario.

rsquires
04-12-2005, 08:07 AM
hi ewoc

Sorry but it was a product which by its very nature is commercial. There was a price and support, serial numbers, etc. There was a forum for crying out loud. If that's not a fully fledged product then I don't know what is. If Darf had really not been interested in money then he shouldn't have made such great plugins and sold them to the community. He should have just given them away.

I think he is a genius plugin developer, but a terrible marketer. I would be too, wouldn't have the first clue. He needed someone to nuture him. And I thought Core were those people.

I am coming round to the realisation that we have seen the last of Darf's great plugins for Cinema.

What I am not happy about and I think a few people here may agree is the way the news was broken and CA's silence on the matter.

richard

ghopper
04-12-2005, 08:25 AM
Better then free SDK, free SDK support and the best structured SDK in the industry?
I don't think so.

Cheers
Björn

I wasn't talking out of own experiences since I don't have experience with MAYA and thus can't compare it with C4D. Just trying to interpret Darf's posts, that's why I was quoting the parts ( see below ) that might suggest that Alias offered him better support. Since Coreaudio do a lot of motion graphics, why the change from C4D to MAYA and why change the development / production platform after so many years ?


...
The Conducter's Program from Alias and the MAYA SDK ( including documenation ) are very good as well as Alias be quick to respond to issues or questions. I can concept, create, debug, and refine in much less time. This is required for hard core production. Working with a team is much different than trying to produce something on your own.
...
There are some very talented developers doing stuff for C4D. Support them by purchasing the tools and by making their concerns heard by Maxon. The latter is far more important that you would believe.
...
That was an attempt to get Maxon to help in the marketing area as they were the only party to have access to the userlist. That was it. There was no money exchanging hands. Sad we had to work it that way to get press from Maxon.
...

Duffdaddy
04-12-2005, 09:18 AM
I gotta say, this thread has generated a lot of passionate responses, and a lot of food for thought - hope the man in question is giving some further consideration as to what this "*** noise" could mean or represent.
If anything it's raised his profile :thumbsup: Don't they say any publicity is good publicity.

Seriously though - I wonder what would happen if CA/Darf went out to all their registered members on their forum, and/or posted an actual request for an "expression of interest" here on CGTalk as to what folks would like, spend, commit to etc.

Darf - I know you're not responding in this thread anymore - but please keep the door open for the moment. Someone here may just give you a great idea you could use - or if this thread keeps growing, it may just demonstrate there's real interest where you think it's lacking.

belushy
04-12-2005, 09:19 AM
The problem with Maxon responding to these holes is that if they always see what plugs are written then match the function they would be sytematicly putting their 3rd party plug writers out-of-business, which discourages anyone from developing plugs in the first place.

Are we seeing that here?

Sorry for my post. But it was intended to bring some life in this thread.
I agree that c4d is at least my 1st choice ,
but ernest brings my argument to the point in terms of external developers. I remember the development of mesh surgery as an good example.
and i thougth they will let hear something about this issue

i'm sorry to touch your feelings about c4d, but competors are not sleeping.


yours florian

flingster
04-12-2005, 02:25 PM
Seriously though - I wonder what would happen if CA/Darf went out to all their registered members on their forum, and/or posted an actual request for an "expression of interest" here on CGTalk as to what folks would like, spend, commit to etc.



sure why not...darf/core just email all registered users, either from ca mag offer or already paid up users and ask if they are willing to put there money where there mouth is and possibly pre fund partial development of say J3 or fund transfer of license to another party so it can be made useable in future c4d releases...or ask for expression of interest to continue development of said plugins...or at least send us some clear info about where we stand in the future.

come on darf/core this makes sense and is the right thing to do, keep us informed so we can make informed decisions. we may no longer be your customers in your eyes but we were and it does no one any good to keep us in the dark. by way of a plea....cheers.:thumbsup:

edfenner
04-12-2005, 02:37 PM
This just points out again to me why it is so hard to ever support 3rd party developers. I paid full price for Jenna way back when and it became part of the workflow. Then had to wait a really long time for it to work in R9 and now they aren't going support C4D. So does that mean R10 might be it's death? We just can't affort to have to re-adjust everytime a small developer changes their mind. I really wish Maxon had a great program for buying up the really good plugins and then developing them (or keeping them working) image if this was SLA that might never work again! Sad


ed

JoelOtron
04-12-2005, 03:26 PM
Ironically if 1/4 the people who've viewed this thread bought the plugins--or even registered the free one(!)--we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I don't see any evidence whatever that Alias has purchased Darf's stuff. It's like the kids game "Telephone"; one person wonders aloud and 80 posts later it's near fact.


I didn't get the impression that Alias bought core's stuff, but that the workflow at core had shifted to Alias. Darf is now mking plugins I suppose to fill gaps they need for production, but instead of doing this for C4d, hes doing it for Maya.

I think its the production end for them that is most important. If you are getting 100 grand a pop for high profile tv spots, and making $200 a pop per plugin purchase, and considering that supporting that plugin will affect your productivity on the big tv spots, then you choose to stop focussing on the commercial plugin development. At least for the time being.

Now I'm not saying its all dandy that this happenned, obviously I'd like to see things continue with darfs c4d plugins. But I can understand, assuming this is the real scenario, why he made the choice.

AdamT
04-12-2005, 03:37 PM
I didn't get the impression that Alias bought core's stuff, but that the workflow at core had shifted to Alias. Darf is now mking plugins I suppose to fill gaps they need for production, but instead of doing this for C4d, hes doing it for Maya.

I think its the production end for them that is most important. If you are getting 100 grand a pop for high profile tv spots, and making $200 a pop per plugin purchase, and considering that supporting that plugin will affect your productivity on the big tv spots, then you choose to stop focussing on the commercial plugin development. At least for the time being.

Now I'm not saying its all dandy that this happenned, obviously I'd like to see things continue with darfs c4d plugins. But I can understand, assuming this is the real scenario, why he made the choice.
I think you hit the nail on the head. For whatever reason--probably MEL scripting--Core is moving to Maya, and since the plugins are a byproduct of Core's work ... there won't be any more Cinema plugins.


Until they get sick of Maya and come back home. :)

The only troubling question is why they are refusing to release Cinema plugins that are supposedly complete.

ernia
04-12-2005, 04:18 PM
Adam said,The only troubling question is why they are refusing to release Cinema plugins that are supposedly complete.

And why, considering a mutually beneficial relationship, is Darf so damn tight-lipped? Darf, maybe this will get through to you:

10 REM THIS PROGRAM IS FOR DARF
20 FOR I=1 TO 100
25 IF I=NDA THEN GOTO 80
30 PRINT "DARF, SAY SOMETHING!"
40 NEXT
50 END
80 USE EUPHEMISMS
90 END


ernia
p.s. the above example proves why darf and people like him are need so much.

Duffdaddy
04-12-2005, 07:53 PM
just wanted to remind everyone I've opened another thread http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=229523 where you can just add your name and a short to note to confirm your commitment to keep CPT & Jenna alive by offering to assist in some form. Keep the list growning.
Thanks

lllab
04-13-2005, 07:32 AM
yes it also really pi.... me that that they dont release jenna 3, darf said its quite as finished only docs are missing. i wouldnt need a documentation. just give us that PLUG - darf?!

i 'd really pay for that, it was already planned to do the update. i bought all the cor plugins, cause i thought in that enviroment the plugins will last some time. for me it is quie unprofessional to let the users so much in the rain...:-(

reall doesnt make me happy. so please darf here us???!!!

cheers
stefan

Lovas
04-13-2005, 04:05 PM
I usually don't consume soap-operas, but this one about Corarsenal is becoming more and more interesting...:) And educational too... We ordinary Cinema users now have a chance to find out "who did whom", to learn all the private secrets of people behind the plugin business. I can hardly wait to find out more: what Darf usually prefers for breakfast, his preferred underwear colour and which one of the jet-set photomodels went out for dinner with the Alias managing director yesterday...

If Corearsenal asked the crew of CGNetworks for publicity like this, they'd probably had to pay for it an interesting sum. This way, they put the "bug" about leaving C4D out and get the publicity for free, right? What was the date they announced their decision? The First of April, maybe?:)

I guess the J3 will be out soon, the CA representatives will announce that "they've changed their mind because of numeros pleads of their users" or something like that and some people will be LOLing while reading this thread. Excellent marketing step, Corearsenal...:thumbsup:

ernia
04-13-2005, 04:40 PM
Well, if you're right Big D that would be a huge marketing error.

I think most people would take offense to that. We as CG specialists are not giddy school girls at a rock concert, and CA is not an irreverent, self-centered rock star. No, it sounds to me like they are re-tooling for greener pastures. I just don't understand the logic in treating past customers like that especially when you have expectations from a new batch of customers.

ernia

ghopper
04-13-2005, 05:22 PM
Well, I would prefer to see this as an April fool's joke, but it looks like Corearsenal are serious about this. We will get an official statement eventually, they are probably still thinking about how to proceed. It would be a bit unprofessional if they don't release an official statement though :hmm:

TimC
04-13-2005, 11:02 PM
?niw uoy

sreehc
CmiT

:tide - gnorw ti tleps

ghopper
04-13-2005, 11:09 PM
?niw ouy

sreehc
CmiT

Ok, what does this "you win" mean in this context ? Darf started with it. I hope it means something good for C4D users ;)

AdamT
04-14-2005, 12:24 AM
Ok, what does this "you win" mean in this context ? Darf started with it. I hope it means something good for C4D users ;)
I think an approximate translation would be: :rolleyes:

neonghost
04-14-2005, 09:56 AM
I should refrain, but this thread has become completely graceless.

I can appreciate concerns regarding R10 compatibility, but we all bought a product for R9 (or received a bonus free upgrade from R8). Darf/Corearsenal never promised support for every iteration of Cinema.

Developer attacks are contemptible, particularly when they're aimed at a very significant contributor to Cinema4D, and sadly this thread sports more of these than any words of thanks or good luck with new ventures.

My studio possesses three licenses, and i'll be sad to see corearsenal leave c4d development - but let it go, people - no one is listening to you whine.

ghopper
04-14-2005, 10:19 AM
...
Developer attacks are contemptible, particularly when they're aimed at a very significant contributor to Cinema4D, and sadly this thread sports more of these than any words of thanks or good luck with new ventures.


I don't think anybody really attacked CA, if you start to read from page 1 you'll see that the majority wished CA all the best. In fact you will realise that there is a huge interest in these plugins, and nobody really wants to see CA leave the C4D community.

I think at the moment most of us just want to know how it's going ahead, there are still a few questions.


1. What's happening with Jenna3 - will it be released ( YES / NO ) ?
2. Is CA willing to license or sell the source code of Jenna and CPT ?
3. Will serial numbers still be issued for users who bought CPT but who have not upgraded to C4D9 yet ?
4. Was this just a clever "April Fool's" Marketing move :argh: ?


And probably some more questions.

An official statement from CA ( as in a press release on their website ) would be nice.

Duffdaddy
04-14-2005, 10:58 AM
I don't think anybody really attacked CA, if you start to read from page 1 you'll see that the majority wished CA all the best. In fact you will realise that there is a huge interest in these plugins, and nobody really wants to see CA leave the C4D community.


Ditto ghopper - I think the predominant feeling here in this thread is nothing but goodwill to Darf/CA (althought there's definitely a feeling of frustration), and also a desire to do what we can to preserve this tool.... we're not trying to flog a dead horse... honestly :)

mecha
04-14-2005, 12:00 PM
Hey All,

I was reading through some of the posts at the CoreArsenal forums and came across a post from Darf about a .NET issue, that may shed some more light on the current situation.

The tone of his post kind of smacks of frustration, but I could just be reading too much into it....:shrug:

http://www.corearsenal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=278

mecha

TimC
04-15-2005, 11:39 PM
I think darf and crew at least deserve being bumped until they hit 10,000 'edit : views'......

cheers
Tim

flingster
04-16-2005, 01:10 AM
I think darf and crew at least deserve being bumped until they hit 10,000 'edit : views'......

cheers
Tim

boing...boing..
:deal: :cry: :deal:

sneez
04-16-2005, 02:19 AM
I think darf and crew at least deserve being bumped until they hit 10,000 'edit : views'......

cheers
Tim

Maybe thats what they're waiting for before they break this deafening silence.

rsquires
04-16-2005, 04:52 AM
here's to 10,000

rich

AdamT
04-16-2005, 04:56 AM
Hell, I think if Darf just popped in with another "you win" it'd spur another 5000 views. :)

Continuumx
04-16-2005, 05:22 AM
By the sounds of it, this thread may have come to a dreadnaught of an all-stop.

Hilt
04-16-2005, 06:33 AM
www.corearsenal.com ==>
This is the Plesk™ default page
If you see this page it means:
1) hosting for this domain is not configured
or
2) there's no such domain registered in Plesk.
For more information please contact @adminemail@.

Hope they didnt close they whole lot. I've waited days for confirmation email to get registered to their forum, but in vain. Come think of it, this was my second attempt to register, or then somebody else has typed in my main email adress. Never got confirmation for that either.
Apparently, if CA wanted people to buy their plugs (or dig more info of them in case of purchase, like me), they would allow people access to source of information.
What saddens me most is that I will prolly never get a chance to get CPT. I've only seen people say 'CPT can handle that no problemos', but I never got to see things done with it and possibilities it offers. Just couple of small-time animations looping in the side of the page. "whoa, CPT does basic particle tricks", I first thought when seeing them.

I may be the most talented artist ever but if I dont promote myself to the right target, I end up driving taxi for living.

At least what CA should do is confirm whether it is possible to send new serials for people against small fee when R10 launches. Or provide info if are they going to keep on selling products till R10 launches or something else happens. Sure they can keep low profile for all they like, but that's not how to deal business -even if you're going to leave the business.

Behavior like this is... cant find proper English word for it, but it's definitely not nice not professional.

.hilt

marcom
04-16-2005, 08:06 AM
www.corearsenal.com ==>


looks like they are reinstalling their server...

cheers
marcom

flingster
04-17-2005, 03:27 PM
did they pull the site also?
crikey...
darf is there any chance of some official sort of statement from core and yourself...so we know where we stand in clear black and white..?please.

JoelOtron
04-17-2005, 05:06 PM
I think he already made his statement flingster.

I wouldn't expect too much. I think darf's moved on, made a clean break--gone whee the wok leads him.

I suppose all we can do is keep our eyes open and hope he pops back into the forums in a few months.

In the meantime, DiTools and POP2 have some of the Jenna functionality. Tweener doesnt exist in any other form, but mesh array is similar to DiCloner.

Those of us that have it stilll can continue to use Jenna and LOCO/CPT. I unfortunately havent upgraded to 9 yet, so I may have problems getting some of those tools to follow through into 9.

Renato is doing new and exciting things with Nota, which I dont see as a replacement in any way--but will offer other ways of getting jobs done. BTW, lets also not expect Renato to build knock-offs of other plugs. I think its more exciting to let him develop his own original tools in his own style.

flingster
04-17-2005, 05:11 PM
In the meantime, DiTools and POP2 have some of the Jenna functionality. Tweener doesnt exist in any other form, but mesh array is similar to DiCloner.


ditools has a morpher thing...which is semi tweenish...but i do like tweener...can possibly be done with xpresso..not sure...:shrug: and you don't get the tweens! lol...

Ernest Burden
04-17-2005, 08:41 PM
Renato is doing new and exciting things with Nota, which I dont see as a replacement in any way--but will offer other ways of getting jobs done. BTW, lets also not expect Renato to build knock-offs of other plugs. I think its more exciting to let him develop his own original tools in his own style.

Well, he or others may have had ideas that they figured weren't worth working on because they were too close to something else. So if we know an existing tool is gone, it leaves a hole that others can fill without feeling like they are ripping someone else's market.
I agree that people do their best work when left to follow their hearts. But nothing motivates an inovator like knowing something is possible, but not currently do-able.

FreWe
04-18-2005, 04:30 PM
Damn, just came back to Germany - very happy to get a grip on a 3DW-mag with Jenna and then I read this thread... Damn Damn Damn... very bad news... :sad:

medula
04-18-2005, 04:50 PM
I go on vacation for a week... and I come back to this? What the heck?

I can't stand a quitter.

Neoklassik
04-18-2005, 05:20 PM
Just speculating here...
Remo or Samir would be logical to add some of Jenna's (et al) functionality to one of their plugs. Frankly I already own DiTools and the pricing structure is more in my league (so call me selfish), but Samir also has great capability and both products are great for Motion Graphics work.
Particle work makes me think of Third Party.
Renato's plate is full... lets not burn him out! :)

flingster
04-18-2005, 09:48 PM
i know we all want our plugins but i'm not so keen on this sort of plagarism approach really...we hate to see it in artwork but we seem to be prepared to see it in software development...
dunno...i want to see darf developing in the long term but its looking unlikely...so i guess we're all desperate for solutions to a way around the problem but not sure its the right way to go though.:shrug:

rsquires
04-18-2005, 10:04 PM
In the words of Bob Morton in Robocop, " You see an opening, you go for it".

Sorry but I was just watching the other night and it is still a great film.

However back to topic. I too feel a bit of a pang of guilt regarding sanctioning others to take up the gauntlet but what other options do we have. I use these tools on a daily basis, and from the reaction in this forum at least, so do many others. This is perfect for a developer to come in and fill a niche where another has left. It's a proven market with a developed customer base.

The longer Core leaves us in the dark, and it now seems there is no forum, or website to speak of, the more likely this scenario will be.

regards

richard

FredSpeaks
04-18-2005, 10:27 PM
It looks as if they were hacked again. Their main page, coreaudiovisual.com (http://www.coreaudiovisual.com/), is also down.

TimC
04-18-2005, 10:37 PM
Just speculating here...
Remo or Samir would be logical to add some of Jenna's (et al) functionality to one of their plugs. Frankly I already own DiTools and the pricing structure is more in my league (so call me selfish), but Samir also has great capability and both products are great for Motion Graphics work.
Particle work makes me think of Third Party.
Renato's plate is full... lets not burn him out! :)

Samir's Nature Tools already includes many tools that could replace some of Jenna.

Plus there is a whole lot of other great tools in there. It is a powerful toolset.

TimC

p.s. plus you get a tree generator!

Neoklassik
04-18-2005, 10:45 PM
Hi Tim,
That was my point.
These tools already share so much in common.



Samir's Nature Tools already includes many tools that could replace some of Jenna.

Plus there is a whole lot of other great tools in there. It is a powerful toolset.

TimC

p.s. plus you get a tree generator!

AdamT
04-18-2005, 10:56 PM
It is an interesting question: if someone intentionally abandons a market, is it wrong to duplicate the person's work to fill the empty space? Look at Wings for example, which started as a complete ripoff of Nendo when Nichimen could no longer be relied upon. My feeling is it would be wrong to simply copy, but it would be okay to cover the same ground in a new way--either through improved functionality, workflow, or both. It'd be silly to conclude that Maxon users can never have sophisticated array or particle tools again because CA dumped them for another audience.

TimC
04-18-2005, 10:58 PM
edit : @ neoklassik

yes, you are right. Just reinforcing your comment!

we must adapt to survive.

TimC

Neoklassik
04-18-2005, 11:28 PM
Hi Tim,
I appreciate that! :)
I'd like to add that I don't advocate stealing, but in this case where there already is so much common ground; a new, logical implementation (Remo improving the tweening he already has for example) would in my mind not be morally or ethically out of line. Some things also depend if CA has copyrighted anything specific.

edit : @ neoklassik

yes, you are right. Just reinforcing your comment!

we must adapt to survive.

TimC

Duffdaddy
04-19-2005, 11:05 AM
howdy to one and all - been outa of this thread for a few days and haven't had time to read the the last few pages - But, has anyone contacted Darf directly yet?
If not I started writing up a letter/proposal/ thing, but was wondering if I could get those interested in putting their name to it to email me? You'll of course get to read it before it goes to the man himself.
Just sign up if you're ;
1. willing to pay for the next release of CPT, or Jenna, (or any other tool in advance so long as you get it in a reasonable time frame)
2. you're wiling to contribute some time/resources/efforts to assist in the ongoing development of this tool, whether it's with CA/Darf OR another developer
3. you'd like to stump up some development funds
4. your suggestions here

Email me on "saveCPT@neogine.com"
Happy to entertain ANY other suggestions you'd like covered off .....
- the more constructive options we can give Darf, the more he has to consider. Lets try and find a positive outcome for all concerned. Benefit's Darf, benefits us etc. etc.
Cheers
DD
____

spirozero
04-19-2005, 11:45 AM
Samir's Nature Tools already includes many tools that could replace some of Jenna.

Interesting. I've never heard of this plugin. Is this it ...

www.dpit2.de (http://www.dpit2.de)

Looks more like xFrog than Jenna.

TimC
04-19-2005, 11:50 AM
Interesting. I've never heard of this plugin. Is this it ...

www.dpit2.de (http://www.dpit2.de)

Looks more like xFrog than Jenna.

Well it has been designed to create trees and bushes etc. However several of the tools included can be used in different ways.

Dubber is a similar beast to iterator.
MultiVariance is similar to Multiple Source
Spline Convertor is similar to Heirarchy2Spline
etc....

cheers
Tim

Erik Heyninck
04-19-2005, 12:33 PM
Yeah, I remember...Samir did an action just before Christmas and I wrote him an e-mail, but never got a reply.

Anyway, to return to the subject: if half, or even one third of you had reacted before this calf had drowned and simply bought the tools, this would never have happened.
I really feel sorry for people who bought and who use professionaly (people like me who bought but don't exactly *need* it to survive are another case) but in Darf's place I'd now be gone forever, even more than before.
I cannot agree, not only with how many people now seem to want to claim rights for something they got for free with a magazine, but also with the fact that other plugin developers see this one getting so much attention whilst for example the fact that MeshSurgery's backbone was broken was neglected because Knife and selections now have part of MS' options.

If something's finished, that be it done with and let's move on. The game of chess is not lost because a tower has fallen.

spirozero
04-19-2005, 12:50 PM
Well it has been designed to create trees and bushes etc. However several of the tools included can be used in different ways.

Are Nature Tools and Nature Spirits the same plugin?

If only the web site had more examples of what this plugin can do. All I see are trees!

Thanks Tim.

TimC
04-19-2005, 01:03 PM
Are Nature Tools and Nature Spirits the same plugin?

If only the web site had more examples of what this plugin can do. All I see are trees!

Thanks Tim.

If you look in the gallery under Misc. then there are a few examples of other things besides trees that have been made with Nature Tools. Not enough examples maybe, but at least there are a few!

cheers
Tim

ghopper
04-19-2005, 01:12 PM
How does xFrog compare to dpit2 plugins ? Does xFrog provide iterator tools as well ?

ooo
04-19-2005, 01:13 PM
If you look in the gallery under Misc. then there are a few examples of other things besides trees that have been made with Nature Tools. Not enough examples maybe, but at least there are a few!

cheers
Tim

Not only dPit (wich is really excellent) but also Xfrog (http://www.xfrogdownloads.com/greenwebNew/gallery/galleryStart.htm) has many Jenna-like features. In the gallery there are lots of abstract and other cool examples!

odo

ernia
04-19-2005, 01:25 PM
Anyway, to return to the subject: if half, or even one third of you had reacted before this calf had drowned and simply bought the tools, this would never have happened.


This I doubt, Erik. If it were purely a money decision, Darf would still have an emotional attachment to this body of work and we would have some answers peppered with regret now and then. I rather think it is a case of self preservation by selective amnesia or a beaver chewing off its own trapped leg to escape. For some unknown reason, he is putting all this behind him in order to properly function in an unfettered future. I could be wrong of course, but this is my take on the situation.

Sometimes I just look at the computer screen and marvel at the genius that is making all this happen in front of me. Sometimes I get this feeling when using C4D, too. Farmer's work is no exception. Who knows, maybe he's putting that mind to work for that new military anti-hacker unit which is supposed to be the best in the world.

ernia

p.s. it was encouraging to see darf post in the save jenna thread, though.

p.p.s. oh, and I will say that Samir's plug in really neat. And who knows what he'll put into the upcoming version 3.

spirozero
04-19-2005, 02:35 PM
How does xFrog compare to dpit2 plugins ? Does xFrog provide iterator tools as well ?

Yeah, I'm wondering about this as well.

TimC - Thanks for pointing out the Misc link. Hadn't even noticed that link earlier.

Katachi
04-19-2005, 05:19 PM
@Erik: I ALWAYS answer emails I receive. :) My users should be able to confirm this. Maybe yours didn´t get to me or settled in my spam folder.

At the others: yes, DPIT includes lots of cool iteration functions etc. (Tim already mentioned some). I also always encourage people to send me emails with suggestions or simply post into my forums at www.dpit2.de

So if you have suggestions concerning stuff that was in Cores tools that you would like to see alive in the future or simply want features in the next DPIT, feel free to post into my forum or contact me directly.

I have just set up a subforum allowing to post feature requests, so this should be place no.1 for users to post their suggestions. Everyone can post there, non dpit users and also dpit users or just interested people. It only requires a registration in the forums (it´s free and absolutely without committment).

And currently it´s the very best time as I am updating DPIT to Version 3 (loads of cool stuff awaiting my customers. No I won´t answer questions concerning this :) ).

DPIT Nature Tools is meant to create everything that can be linked to organics in the first place, but this also includes abstract stuff, iterative stuffs etc.

Last but not least there is the demo which should give you a general overview.

Best
Katachi

ooo
04-19-2005, 07:07 PM
And currently it´s the very best time as I am updating DPIT to Version 3 (loads of cool stuff awaiting my customers. No I won´t answer questions concerning this :) ).
Katachi

Great news Samir! Can't wait :thumbsup:

odo

JoelOtron
04-19-2005, 10:56 PM
Corearsenal is back on line with an announcement abot the server hacks they've been experiencing.

marcom
04-20-2005, 07:12 AM
Corearsenal is back on line with an announcement abot the server hacks they've been experiencing.

just grabbed my copy of vixol before they disappear again...

cheers
marcom

lllab
04-20-2005, 08:47 AM
well Samir, thanks for your interest.

i guess you really could make dpit a kind of organic-iteranion beast:-)

i have following suggestions:

1) something like allie: this was 3d arrays based on shaders or textures, also animated, also 3d noises, so almost every texture channel parameter could be taken to place and/or deform geometry in 3d space- very cool thing.

2) tweener: 2 shapes are stepwise transformed into each other, or morphed, also animatable.

3) mesharray: you could take any mash and position different objects on verices, segments faces. these objetcplacement had many option so that it fits the lenght of the segment or face and has many options for orientation relative to the base mesh. very good for construction windows, bridges, beams, roofs, abstracts etc.

4) well then of course some coreparticel tools splinetraces of particels, which can be used to produce other geometry like sweep nurbs or lofts, this of course must be animated.

5) some cool shaders that react to raydistance and/or cameradistance and fit into any slot of materials,

well some of my first ideas. looking forward for dpit3:-)
cheers
stefan

Katachi
04-20-2005, 10:27 AM
well Samir, thanks for your interest.

i guess you really could make dpit a kind of organic-iteranion beast:-)

i have following suggestions:

1) something like allie: this was 3d arrays based on shaders or textures, also animated, also 3d noises, so almost every texture channel parameter could be taken to place and/or deform geometry in 3d space- very cool thing.

2) tweener: 2 shapes are stepwise transformed into each other, or morphed, also animatable.

3) mesharray: you could take any mash and position different objects on verices, segments faces. these objetcplacement had many option so that it fits the lenght of the segment or face and has many options for orientation relative to the base mesh. very good for construction windows, bridges, beams, roofs, abstracts etc.

4) well then of course some coreparticel tools splinetraces of particels, which can be used to produce other geometry like sweep nurbs or lofts, this of course must be animated.

5) some cool shaders that react to raydistance and/or cameradistance and fit into any slot of materials,

well some of my first ideas. looking forward for dpit3:-)
cheers
stefan

Thanks lllab for this! Would you be so kind to post this also in my forums at www.dpit2.de in the feature requests forum? Then I have it for reference.

Thank you!
Katachi

Mylenium
04-20-2005, 10:30 AM
Let me throw in some comment from an outsider (if you will). I've used C4D up to v8 but then our company dumped it shortly after receiving the update to v8 in favor of LightWave (which was a bit daft looking back and seeing LW's current crisis) and Maya, so I didn't follow things in the C4D world that closely. Also I didn't consider the community to be very "pro" oriented at that point (there were simply to many dull renderings and stupid questions floating around [no insult intended]), but lately that has completely changed. R9 certainly has evolved to a point where I even considered getting a private copy again some time this year. Part of this fascination were corearsenal's tools (along with Sketch and Toon and XFrog, whose implementation in C4D beats Maya's), so I'm a little more than disappointed seeing their imminent demise. This brings back bad memories from LW, where so many great plugins have disappeared over the years. Considering that they developed them just for v9 and hence they only have been around for little more than half a year (correct me if I'm wrong here), they are giving up far too soon. They should be much more patient. On the other hand they definitely should improve their marketing. It sucks big time. When I looked around I couldn't get a shred of solid information on what their plugins do except for som lengthy texts and stylized/ stylish but tiny pictures. They need to understand that just giving away a plugin for free and relying on word-of-mouth-propaganda in this case doesn't cut it. Having said all this and having at this point somewhat ambiguous feelings of déja-vu in seeing an old story repeat, I'm not so sure if C4D is a safe road any longer and I might be scared away (again).

Mylenium

rendermania
04-20-2005, 10:59 AM
Its a darn shame that Darf is moving on, since he's contributed so much to C4D over the years. But an animation platform as popular as C4D doesn't stand or fall based on one talented dev moving on to do other things. We still have Paul, Per, Samir, Remo, Renato, Bobtronic, Cactus Dan and others churning out cool stuff. If the user community became more proactive in courting some new plugin devs, and if Maxon made some more effort to document things like COFFEE better (as in creating more 'intro do developing for C4D' sort of guides), that list might grow even further in the future.

A good thing, as far as I'm concerned, would be to create one centralized C4D plugin supershop of sorts, where all commercially available plugins are announced, can be browsed/searched, downloaded for trial, purchased and upgraded from (you'd have an account and automatically receive things like updated serials through that site, rather than going through email with each individual plugin dev).

Furthermore, sales of plugins could be increased in some cases by a voluntary 'bundling discounts' system I think. You would have different devs agreeing that instead of buying plugins individually at x arbitrary price a pop, you can pick a basket of two, three, four or more plugins from different devs at a time, and get an overall discount on them as opposed to buying all of them individually at full price. You'd need some sort of clever points-system to make that happen, but the ability to buy discounted bundles of plugins as opposed to one-at-a-time might create an incentive that ends up selling a greate number of plugins overall.

Maybe that isn't the exact 'selling magic' that's required, but some kind of clever online marketplace where people can more easily browse, evaluate, buy and upgrade their plugs might lubricate overall plugin consumption somewhat. I get the sense sometimes that a lot of more casual C4D users simply overlook or never hear about some good plugins, because they are scattered over so many different dev sites.

AdamT
04-20-2005, 01:40 PM
Maybe that isn't the exact 'selling magic' that's required, but some kind of clever online marketplace where people can more easily browse, evaluate, buy and upgrade their plugs might lubricate overall plugin consumption somewhat. I get the sense sometimes that a lot of more casual C4D users simply overlook or never hear about some good plugins, because they are scattered over so many different dev sites.
I've been thinking the same thing--even toyed with the idea of starting such a site myself. It would have multiple advantages, such as:

* Convenience for developers (don't have to set up own shops);
* Convenience for users (don't have to scour web for plugins);
* Marketing--could concentrate on this aspect as opposed to developers who must spend most of their time programming; and
* Optional services, such as manual writing/editing, collecting user reviews, etc.

It would have to be competitive with Pay-Pal/Share-It in terms of cost to developers, but maybe cost a little more for the added value (more for manual writing).

Erik Heyninck
04-20-2005, 02:00 PM
As Maxon does not do this themselves (which I understand), then why not see whether 3DAttack (for example) aren't interested? Their magazine is very good, their service also, they already have Paypal and ShareIt?

rendermania
04-20-2005, 02:11 PM
What you'd need is something like this I think:

- a splash page that looks really good, kind of like a plugin 'Megamall' online, announcing the latest plugins that have been added, maybe even featuring reviews of such plugins as though they are new software in their own right and the odd developer interviews/previews.

- a way to browse plugins by name, developer, category, function, price, date and so on

- an easy to use pay & download mechanism (+ obviously registration, so the buyer can come back for file updates or manuals or updated serials and so on)

- help/tutorial forum areas for each developer or plugin

- maybe a smallish user gallery of nice things made using various plugins

- a 'request a plugin' or suggestions area where C4D users can contribute ideas for new plugins

- possibly also a 'new developers' area, which might be the first port of call for developers who've seen the site and want to know how to develop for C4D

rendermania
04-20-2005, 02:18 PM
two more things that would help

- if the plugin site (lets call it C4Dpluginzone.com just for argument's sake) issues periodic press releases to the major CG news sites, like 'C4Dpluginzone adds X and Y to its lineup of Cinema 4D effects plugins'

- if it had a recognizable logo to go along with the name, so various C4D community sites can post banners linking to it

RangTang
04-20-2005, 02:24 PM
Go to c4dplugs.com, it is up-to-date and sortable.

rendermania
04-20-2005, 02:32 PM
C4Dplugs is a good list, but

- the design is sparse (compared to a site that would an 'online plugin shop')
- you can't buy or upgrade plugs through it
- there's no plugin reviews or developer interviews
- there's no forums or community areas
- it sends you off-site to get detailed info on various plugins
- there's no marketing materials (like thumbnail pics of each plugin in action or plugin logos for those that have them)

The C4Dplugs database could form the basis of a new 'Plugin Shop' site, but it would have to be a more visually attractive site with a lot more features (you're trying to sell plugins after all).

JoelOtron
04-20-2005, 02:57 PM
Sounds interesting. Reminds me a bit of HiSoft (I think that was the name)--the british site that sold quite a few plugins. That didnt work out to well in the end.

The drawbacks would be on the developers side:

Competing products being sold on the same website

Less control over marketing decisions? Promotions and such?

Also it puts the person running such a site in a bad spot, as if the developers fall behind schedule or begin to become less cooporative, the brunt of that rests on the guy running the ecommerce site. And the reverse of this could be a problem as well--developers feeling slighted for one reason or another.

I dont know if theres a centralized solution.

Bottom line, people are gonna write plugins--and if they are useful enough, people will buy them. Used to be that when you bought a piece of software, it was a big deal. You bought from an established software company and got a shiny package with a cd and a manual. The developer was faceless--you didnt think about the "person" you bought from --you thought of the company. And you felt there was a sense of stability and permanence to that relationship. Even if that developer went under--the software at least changed hands and was managed under a new company.

Now--with the internet --more people are able to create there own businesses almost instantly. Write a plugin, upload it the next day and maybe you have some buyers. Because of this, we might have more sellers who never really intended to run a software development business--so they are here for a while till school starts or they get a job, or decide that they dont want to do it anymore, and the plugin is gone.

Its a very interesting thing going on actually--very grass roots. There are pros and cons to this new process. The pros are we have many more plugins to play with. The cons are --we get hooked on the ones that are short lived. We just need to think about this when buying from the smaller guys. Is the plugin worth it to me RIGHT NOW? Will I at least get out of it what I spent on it? If so, then I guess thats fine--though still unfortunate. You buy a hammer--and you get used to that. Then someone tells you that you wont be able to use the hammer anymore. So what do you do? Hopefully someone comes up with a new kind of hammer.

Byla
04-24-2005, 06:42 PM
Hi guys!

sorry to bring this up again (or not), but is this Cinema ban by corearsenal official? I mean, I cant find anything on their site or am I completely blind? I got a feeling by browsing it, that everything is fine and bloomy...

Maybe its just me, but I am still holding to the only thing left - hope :rolleyes:

:)

flingster
04-24-2005, 08:29 PM
Hi guys!

sorry to bring this up again (or not), but is this Cinema ban by corearsenal official? I mean, I cant find anything on their site or am I completely blind? I got a feeling by browsing it, that everything is fine and bloomy...

Maybe its just me, but I am still holding to the only thing left - hope :rolleyes:

:)

well all i've seen is darfs posts on here and postforum...so its official-ish...heh heh. seems a bit strange on all fronts to be honest...core no press release info, darf "more" silent than usual..lol. what can we do..."me no like the win no more"...beginning to feel like a kick in the nuts despite the intension never being that i would imagine. v sad to see. hopefully darf can develop under cidertank again or something or sell/pass it on.:shrug:

Duffdaddy
04-27-2005, 06:14 AM
well all i've seen is darfs posts on here and postforum...so its official-ish...heh heh. seems a bit strange on all fronts to be honest...core no press release info, darf "more" silent than usual..lol. what can we do..."me no like the win no more"...beginning to feel like a kick in the nuts despite the intension never being that i would imagine. v sad to see. hopefully darf can develop under cidertank again or something or sell/pass it on.:shrug:

Hey ya also noticed that Corearsenal's site is up again, and there a quite few requests from people saying they got the magazine CD, emailed in and never got a reply? Must've been when CA got their servers hacked and they missed a bunch of emails!!!
Hopefully this means they reacted to soon. I'm still working on my letter to Darf, but I've just been so snowed the last two weeks - very nearly there though! If only that damn thunderstorm hadn't fried my Firewire drive :cry:

pasto
04-27-2005, 08:27 AM
I mailed you Duffdaddy.

Hilt
04-27-2005, 09:04 AM
Hey ya also noticed that Corearsenal's site is up again, and there a quite few requests from people saying they got the magazine CD, emailed in and never got a reply? Must've been when CA got their servers hacked and they missed a bunch of emails!!!
Hopefully this means they reacted to soon. I'm still working on my letter to Darf, but I've just been so snowed the last two weeks - very nearly there though! If only that damn thunderstorm hadn't fried my Firewire drive :cry:

None of the CA ever people bothered to comment on thread at http://www.corearsenal.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=288.
Wonder why.. I still say it's just grande tasteless marketing idea from them, and now they're too ashamed to admit it. If this isnt worst hype ever, they really oughta go to school where people are taught how to report major events in company strategy. Dont continue C4D? Fine, but at least write a paragraph of official info about it -that was the main idea of WWW in first place.

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2005 4:45 pm Post subject: corearsenal projects...
We've been a little scarce lately, and will be till the end of the month.

We are currently directing and doing all visual effects (as coreaudiovisual) for a new Pontiac Spot for GM. The :60 will air during the NCAA Final 4 at the beginning of April. We are bringing in some new resources to help our customers and will of course do what we can when we can. However, this means some delays in product releases (new version of CPT is still slated for this month). Bear with us, and pray that Darf has the energy left to convert some of the effects we are working on into plugs!

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2005 9:13 am Post subject: Free JENNA Authorization
I've been getting a lot of emails from people who have not received their JENNA authorizations after registering at the page. Our servers have been wanky due to a number of DoS attacks, but I think that's all fixed now. You can reregister and see if it works, or I will try and get through all of the emails and make sure you've been taken care of.

We really apologize for this!

Also, please note we will NOT hand out 8.5 registrations. This free offer is only good for the C4Dr9 compatible version of JENNA (v222).

How about some true announcements also? Somewhere besides random boards in Net, like your homepages perhaps?

.hilt

Duffdaddy
04-27-2005, 09:31 PM
I mailed you Duffdaddy.
Hey Pasto, sorry, missed your reply somehow. Thanks for the info on Darf - that sounds like it might have some legs! Thanks!

pasto
04-27-2005, 09:33 PM
Let's suggest maxon to buy these tools.

TimC
04-27-2005, 10:41 PM
Let's suggest maxon to buy these tools.

Yes! or at least redevelop them?!.@£$

Tim

flingster
04-27-2005, 11:57 PM
Yes! or at least redevelop them?!.@£$

Tim

i sure if maxon are allowed the code then they would love to have a go..but not sure whether they would stump up...or would they..?
i just wanna be able to use some of these features in the future...one step forwards two steps back at the moment...come on people darf, core, maxon, help here...we need a solution and keeping quiet is not helping anyone..users, darf, core, maxon...its just rubbing people up the wrong way for no real reason really...can be avoided totally...:sad:

digital19
05-01-2005, 06:20 PM
It would be great if this code was released in to the public domain. If Maxon can't pick up the ball I'm sure somebody could. I think, for many programmers, this would be an amazing look at what can be done with C4d.

I once managed a large website that had free downloads. I later found a program I had written for sale: on someone else's site. There's a lot of frustration that goes in to doing something for free and then getting tied down in support, message boards, emails, etc.

Cheers Darf!
You've written some amazing code!

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