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dloots
04-06-2005, 08:03 AM
Dirk Loots has entered the Master and Servant 2D.

Challenge Page (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/masterandservant/view_entries.php?challenger=7256)

Latest Update: Final Image: Don't fear death, fear time.
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1116254462_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1116254462_large.jpg)

From ancient times the human race has feared death, even going as far as searching for the Holy grail to have eternal life. Not knowing that they should fear time, the master of death. Myth has it that the daughter of Aquarius was given the task no one wanted, the eternal keeper of time. Now she wanders through graveyards summoning death to do her bidding.

dloots
04-06-2005, 08:28 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1112772531_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1112772531_large.jpg)

Nice to be back in the swing of things from what I have seen so far the competition is going to be great. my idea is that the keeper of time is master of death but will give a more desciptive story later. Any comments welcome

spacesnail
04-06-2005, 08:32 AM
Hello
and
Good luck

SigFire
04-06-2005, 09:37 AM
Nice sketch.
She is looking FINE!!!

Cool idea. Love the sketch and good luck.

What are your plans for the background

dloots
04-06-2005, 09:48 AM
Thanks.

I want to keep her as the focus but have a kind of shadowy death figure be it the traditional or something differrent I still have to decide with maybe a kind of plain with smoke and clouds, but I still need to put alot of thought into it.

dloots
04-06-2005, 02:23 PM
Sorry guys I am a complete dumbass and did not change my Hyperlink properly cause it was linking to my Grandspace opera thread that I did not complete. The link should be fixed now

Arc80
04-06-2005, 02:26 PM
sketch is looking nice dude. hope to see more. Goodluck

cheers,
Archie

GhostInTheMachine
04-06-2005, 02:32 PM
Good character. look forward to the scene.
Ghost

nebezial
04-06-2005, 02:34 PM
excellent pencilwork, posture is great, what is she leaning on?, well anyways u could work in the comics industry cuz u ve got the skills

Cerebr4l
04-06-2005, 03:16 PM
Wow, nice lines, very clean. Good work.

BlackDidThis
04-06-2005, 03:36 PM
Not too vividly, but I can sort of imagine where your idea is going for. And it sounds VERY cool. I hope that you can overcome it all.


The girl looks very good adn the sketch is very clean. There are some exagerated proportions you have done that make her much more impressive.
So nothing to actually comment on. It all looks great for starters.

Good luck!


Black

Coreius
04-06-2005, 03:41 PM
Clean lines, good idea, hope to see more of your progress soon.

dloots
04-06-2005, 04:05 PM
Thanks for everyones comments hope I can get some more sketches up by tommorow

camtheman
04-06-2005, 06:39 PM
This challenge is heating up nicely I'd say, can I get her #? LOL :bounce:

Great pencil work, welcome to the fun...

M/S thread:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=227140

dloots
04-07-2005, 08:50 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1112860239_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1112860239_large.jpg)

Just a sketch of death that I was thinking of using as a background feature, but will play with it and the other sketch to see how I like it.

SigFire
04-07-2005, 01:44 PM
LOVE The Death character

Very cool. Like the fact that its long and thin/skinny.

Like where you are going with this I really need to do some catching up.
Dam work still getting in the way.
I need to finish this stupid system off before the end of the month.

Oh well Gonna do a bit tonight. Mikes coming over so we will do a pit of shetching etc.

calisto-lynn
04-11-2005, 12:55 PM
i rally like your characters, they have a certain comic book style! i love it!!:applause:

THE Wizard
04-11-2005, 07:19 PM
ok, I like the both pictures very much, but Death, well, I think you should do a couple of things to Mr. Greem, 1st, I don't like that straight wood that holds scythe... Try to bent it a little and give some wild shape. And 2nd when coloring him, try not to reveal his face that much... that'll give him more mysterious and frightening look.

the-mighty-m
04-12-2005, 04:33 PM
Hey Dirk

Good to see some of your pics again, looking forward to seeing what this one will look like.

the-mighty-m
04-13-2005, 09:41 AM
Hey Dirk when are you going to post something new?

dloots
04-13-2005, 10:12 AM
Hopefully tommorow I am having a bit of a problem with my background as I hate doing them and I am quite undesided on what to do, so I will start on the woman and see how that goes and fit the background in with her, death will be part of the background be it a character or maybe a grave yard with zombies popping out everywhere, I also don't want it to be to busy and it must be quite dark. So my mind is a bit frazzled on what to do.

And some of us have responsibilities, sharpen my swords, tar my long boat you know the usual so time is also a factor.

SigFire
04-13-2005, 01:09 PM
yes Dirk the Viking has pilleging to do.

:scream:

I still think the new Death character you sketched up and refuse to post looked cool.
Keep up the great work.

I rekon a graveyard scene in the background could look really cool.

dloots
04-14-2005, 08:08 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1113462526_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1113462526_large.jpg)

Just some more concepts on death

SigFire
04-14-2005, 10:02 AM
Very cool Dirk.

I really like the death charater. very cool.
looks very cool

BlackDidThis
04-14-2005, 11:49 AM
The Death Character looks outstanding.

The feminine feel you have given to death is a very good touch in your post #15 (http://www.cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2138061&postcount=15). I am not sure if your last one was meant to have a better feel of the character, or if is was meant to be used. If to be used... I think the way you have handled depicting the sycle kiond of takes from the total of the composition.

Since 'time' is sort of what it is all about, instead of a series of zombies.. why don't you go for something such as an infinate space of another realm? Some serious emptiness of infinity?
Well just an idea. Nothing I have really put much thought into. Probably you have already come up with it by now.

Things are looking promising!


Good Luck!


Black

dloots
04-14-2005, 01:24 PM
Thanks

Sigfire - Your support is always appretiated

BlackDidThis - Thanks for the comments I still have not made up my mind but hopefully get some kind of inspiration soon, The death character I think will appear quite dark in the background with the main focus on the woman.

Once again thanks to everyone who has commented

dloots
04-15-2005, 01:05 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1113566757_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1113566757_large.jpg)

I am trying a different approach to doing this image as I am using a vector package to do the lines and colour fills and will then take them into photoshop to add depth and color, just an experiment. - Hope it works out??

dloots
04-15-2005, 01:23 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1113567824_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1113567824_large.jpg)

Being a dumbass again and uploaded the wrong image the last time but this one should be fine. I am trying a new process with vectors and then importing them into photoshop. hope it works?

goktugg
04-15-2005, 02:09 PM
:) last one is clean sketch! nice pose and woman`s proportion...fast starting!:) good luck`mate!

calisto-lynn
04-16-2005, 07:25 PM
nice boob..i mean boots;)

i love your work, you know how to construct a character. i never do that and things go off.

dloots
04-18-2005, 08:47 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1113810421_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1113810421_large.jpg)

Adding some colour step by step.

dloots
04-18-2005, 09:09 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1113811776_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1113811776_large.jpg)

Just some more colour I did over the weekend

gorvien1
04-18-2005, 09:50 AM
Awesome work. Look forward to seeing it all come together, plus the background. :)

nebezial
04-18-2005, 11:08 AM
looks great so far, in my opinion the ground colour of the skin is too desaturated but i dont know where u r taking it, so ill hold the advices for now... im intreagued:thumbsup:

SigFire
04-18-2005, 11:23 AM
Looking Awesome Dirk.
She is looking REALLY Fine.
The flesh tones are working perfectly.

Cant wait to see what you do with the armour.

Dam I have some catching up to do.

This is looking really wicked.. and ratehr Sexy
:D
Yummmm

Sorry Im getting caried away :)

keep up the great work :thumbsup:

dloots
04-19-2005, 08:28 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1113895730_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1113895730_large.jpg)

Added some more detail just to get the whole effect, but by no means finished I actually want to redo the face It is just not working for me but maybe I have been staring at it for to long.

calisto-lynn
04-20-2005, 12:28 PM
good work so far! i wait for more!:) :thumbsup:

BlackDidThis
04-20-2005, 12:40 PM
Your work is literally turning out like an airbrush work where as you just mask; cut; then unmask things and paint along (But alot cleaner :) )

Things are REALLY taking shape. I would say things about the knee... but I can clearly see that you are working your colours gradually.. pronouncing the details meanwhile.
I loved the passage to the forearm from the elbow. The problemish thing about that area is that the band and the coveed bit about the shoulder sure makes her upper arm look short. And the way you painted the biceps bulge sort of keeps me from thinking of adding a shoulder distance učnder the gear; since it suggests the biceps being so low. Have you done it such beacause of the tightening of the band?

The sketches were fantastic.. and I would just love to ee her fleshen to it's standards.:thumbsup:


Black

snowkiwi
04-20-2005, 08:47 PM
Great hips. Also, the skeleton is very intriquing.

SigFire
04-21-2005, 09:44 AM
Looking really cool dirk.

Really cool indeed.
Adding the hair in makes alot of difference.
You should post up the one you emailed me that was really nicely done aswell

GhostInTheMachine
04-21-2005, 09:59 AM
looks good:) interesting way of blocking in, very 'clean' gl

Vectorius
04-21-2005, 11:49 AM
that look good!! very nice sketch.:thumbsup: Iprefer your woman face on the sketch than on your color WIP..but i just a question of taste..you should maybe add some contrast in to the face...in comparaison with the body, face seems to me low contrasted..


Keep it up and good luck!:)

MIngMIng
04-21-2005, 02:22 PM
The girl looks very good adn the sketch is very clean,and......and the girl is very sexy!:D

dloots
04-22-2005, 10:44 AM
hi

Once again thanks for all the interest and comments they are greatly appretiated.

I am still working on the skin tone and need to do some work on the face, but it seems to be coming together quite nicely.

Thanks again for the support

dloots
04-22-2005, 11:22 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1114165330_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1114165330_large.jpg)

Just working on the skin color again and will start to finish the face soon, still wanna play with the armour a bit.

SigFire
04-22-2005, 02:35 PM
Looks Absoultly awesome Dirk

Though I think she looked better as a brunette

tilite
04-23-2005, 09:43 AM
the light and shadow in the skin tone is amazing... i love it (and those big cg titties... lol)

i was wondering if u knew of any good skin tone tuts like what uve done... or even had a tut of ur own (or wanna make a short one:shrug: hehe)

great work ill be back

Arc80
04-25-2005, 06:12 AM
That is looking really good. I kinda like her brunette too. She has more spunk with dark hair. Can't wait to see the full image.


cheers

the-mighty-m
04-25-2005, 08:33 AM
Your airbrushing is awesome, very smooth, it looks really cool!

xric7
04-25-2005, 02:09 PM
very beautiful post.:thumbsup: wait to see more.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=227677 (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=227677)

dloots
04-26-2005, 10:29 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1114507756_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1114507756_large.jpg)

Still needs lot of work with the shadows, hair and face but is slowly getting there.

clayeraser
04-26-2005, 03:42 PM
nice coloring tech on the body. Very smooth :thumbsup:

THE Wizard
04-26-2005, 06:01 PM
Beautifull, just gorgeous!

BlackDidThis
04-28-2005, 04:33 AM
What?! She is blonde?!

That was a shock to see it as the newest update.. I am not sure.. but I think the dark hair fit her a bit better.. Might be from her tan.
Now she looks more like the fake blonds you see in California postcards.

Actually the more I look at it, the more I am getting used to it... Don't mind me, I'll just preffer to see what you do.


Black

calisto-lynn
04-29-2005, 08:56 PM
:eek: huh! she is blonde..? who could expect that?i thought she'd be black, or at least dark brownish red.. well anyway i like ur plan of colouring. that way u can never fail with the shadows. i like the looks of it so far! cant wait for more!:)

kenan-atassi
05-02-2005, 10:08 AM
I love the pose and the lighting

nailuj
05-02-2005, 12:23 PM
her boobs looks real good!..soft and and..and.. soft!.:D

dloots
05-03-2005, 09:40 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115109654_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115109654_large.jpg)

Yes she is going to be blonde, sorry guys I have never done blonde always the black red head thing, so I am trying something new. I added more detail to the face, changed the hair a bit and altered the shoulder armour to show more of her shoulder. The other armour was just a bit to bulky for my liking but I quite like the new look.

dloots
05-03-2005, 09:56 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115110586_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115110586_large.jpg)

Just filling in the blonde hair.

dloots
05-03-2005, 11:07 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115114850_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115114850_large.jpg)

just added more detail to the hair

kenan-atassi
05-03-2005, 01:42 PM
Keep Going In The Same Direction
I Wish You A Very Good Luck

dloots
05-03-2005, 01:46 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115124389_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115124389_large.jpg)

I gave the armour a more textured feel as everything else is quite smooth, just to give some overall contrast to the image.

nebezial
05-03-2005, 01:50 PM
oy, lookin great, the hair looks a bit shallow, but it is easily fixed, i think ur method is a bit wrong, something about the foundation color, here is a lil tut, ull see what i mean u need a darker foundation to make the voluminous hair it looks good but it can look much better
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y145/aquilar/tutorial.jpg
also use some lo opacity reds and yellows in soft and vivid light mode to improve the skin colour and try to shade with a lo opacity dark blue or purple with soft edge brush set to HARD light, trust me u wont regret it, i just discovered it and it has improved my shading tremendously

nebezial
05-03-2005, 01:52 PM
oy and now i see the armour and i have to saym great, and add soft light mode and skin colour reflecting on the armour, it will make it more real

dloots
05-03-2005, 02:08 PM
Thanks for all the comments.

nebezial: Thanks man I will go and try It tonight sounds interesting, I work quite strangely as I get bored very quickly so I will do something get bored work on something else and then go back and improve on the first thing cause I start going cross eyed working on the same part of the image so Yes everything still needs touching up - Hope it comes out allright

Thanks again

dloots
05-03-2005, 03:53 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115132036_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115132036_large.jpg)

Added some colour to the sash

SigFire
05-03-2005, 03:55 PM
Wow Dirk Looking AWESOME!

Yeah I know I said I thought she would look good with dark hair but ummmm you have changed my mind she looks fine as a blonde!!!

And I do mean fine.

The skin tones are looking amazing but that hair wow Im at a loss for words (and you know me that doesnt happen that often)

The face is also stunning. Keep up the great work. Its looking stunning.

kenan-atassi
05-03-2005, 06:36 PM
your work is very amazing just continue
i love the look

demonicoz
05-03-2005, 08:28 PM
Hey Loots thanks for dropping by on mine mate. Just wanted to say yours is coming along nicely, very smooth looking chick, hope you know her :)
Keep going mate, and keep your feedback coming. One personal note, why dont you make the leather black instead of brown, it'll give it that dominatrix look at the same time, pschologically tipping the balance e.g. good mistress or bad mistress??? (heh heh). Hope to hear from you soon.

dloots
05-04-2005, 09:17 AM
Sigfire - Your comments are always welcome, hows durban

demonicoz - Thanks man, I will go and visit again soon. Ya I was thinking about the boots being black, sounds cool I will have to do them and then play with the colour.

kinan_art - Thanks for dropping by do you have Pic you are working on I will do a search and check it out

Thanks again for all the support

element5
05-04-2005, 01:47 PM
Nice work here Dirk, progress is very good. I used nebezial tut and it work a treat on the hair of my character...:thumbsup:

Looking forward to the finished product.

dloots
05-04-2005, 03:08 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115215722_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115215722_large.jpg)

Just added more detail and tried to use some suggestions from posts.

calisto-lynn
05-04-2005, 04:34 PM
Looking AWESOME!:bounce:
she looks great, i have no comments!:)

LonTree
05-04-2005, 04:58 PM
'ssup!
i thought they said no nudity, but i like yours =)
the body's great, but compared to it the face is pretty much a cartoon
the metal pieces could use some details, the noise on them right now is a little weird. also, the shoulder piece looks like it's plastic/rubber, since it bends along with her shoulder. maybe consider making the body bump out a little around metal stripes (check out how your hand looks near the wrist watch area)
'luck! i'll be coming back, you look promising =)

Arc80
05-05-2005, 01:33 AM
looking good dude. I dig the texturing and the hair looks nice. will be waiting for the final piece.

cheers

Neozoom
05-06-2005, 10:32 AM
very nice skin^^ like the style , but it looks a bit to "artificial" to me^^

anyway I 'll wait to see final comp to say what I feel from it

dloots
05-06-2005, 11:03 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115373826_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115373826_large.jpg)

I have started with the boots and have worked a bit on the face and shadows. I am thinking of adding a furr ring around the top of the boots what do you think.

the-mighty-m
05-08-2005, 05:36 PM
This is looking good, your digital painting skills just get better and better! Howzabout adding steel bits to the boots, it might tie in with her armour more?
Sorry I havent dropped by your thread as much as I would have liked, they give me the hairy eyeball when I do, they are quite conservative.

Argh! only a few more days to go!

dloots
05-09-2005, 10:40 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115631624_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115631624_large.jpg)

Added some detail to the boots and fixed the stomach area as well as playing with some background elements.

kerembeyit
05-09-2005, 10:43 AM
Looking good so far. Good luck.

dloots
05-10-2005, 10:10 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115716227_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115716227_large.jpg)

Added the hour glass.

Vectorius
05-10-2005, 10:32 AM
Yop!:) Woman is looking good! you should attenuate the texture on metal elements i think...
Keep it up!

vinegaria
05-10-2005, 12:31 PM
the girl's looking really neat.. i would add some more shadows to the red material though.. it's looking kinda flat at the moment.. but i like the overall look of it, especially the skin tones, they're always so hard..

element5
05-10-2005, 12:42 PM
wow...very sexy :applause:

dloots
05-12-2005, 01:30 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115901008_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115901008_large.jpg)

Just added some detail to the background

Jezzarts
05-12-2005, 02:02 PM
erm... I think those headlights blinded me. Nice anatomy, will be back again to check this out he he. Some more textures and a foggy BG would be an improvement... and she looks cold, just kidding, looks good so far :)

Fish-KAart
05-12-2005, 05:20 PM
:) It is pleasant to me! Good work

dloots
05-13-2005, 12:24 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115983440_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1115983440_large.jpg)

Just added some detail to the gravestones, Will have to work the weekend to finish

xric7
05-15-2005, 01:53 AM
wow..:bounce:
beautiful color and character.:thumbsup: wanna be her slave.:drool: :drool: :drool:
keep going.good luck.

nailuj
05-15-2005, 05:43 AM
excelent!!... maybe it's not finish yet... just tat the background is alittle blend ya. :thumbsup:

dloots
05-16-2005, 09:36 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1116232589_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1116232589_large.jpg)

Will upload the final image with the story a bit later.

dloots
05-16-2005, 03:41 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1116254462_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/7256/7256_1116254462_large.jpg)

From ancient times the human race has feared death, even going as far as searching for the Holy grail to have eternal life. Not knowing that they should fear time, the master of death. Myth has it that the daughter of Aquarius was given the task no one wanted, the eternal keeper of time. Now she wanders through graveyards summoning death to do her bidding.

Tariq12
05-16-2005, 03:53 PM
Hi Dirk, very cool image and very cool backstory. All the best in the final.
T.
:thumbsup:

SigFire
05-17-2005, 10:04 AM
Wow And I do mean Wow.
That is absolutly awesome. I really love where you went with this.
The background works perfectly. The colouring is brilliant.
I really dig the hair. Teh skin tones are amazing.

The whole scene is REALLY Atmospheric. Brilliant Dirk.
I also like the story behind it. Very cool and they fit so nicely together.

nebezial
05-17-2005, 10:13 AM
on time, lol u made it eh, good... otherwise death would await u, not bad indeed, and the texturing of the moon is superb, good luck mate:D

the-mighty-m
05-21-2005, 03:45 PM
Glad to see you finished, it looks awesome!
Good Luck!

Arc80
05-22-2005, 02:52 PM
Haha, i found your thread. Good work dude. VEry strong finish and a job well done. It's been fun hanging around here. GOodluck.

You did an Awesome job :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

cheers

xric7
05-22-2005, 02:58 PM
wow...i fear my heart belong to her.:drool: hehe.
great painting and cool concept.:thumbsup:
congrats and goodluck to u.:applause: :buttrock:

snowkiwi
05-22-2005, 08:12 PM
You don't have to reply to this comment. I just wanted to give my applause.

I really love her pose. Very feminine and beautiful. She is also beautiful. She has great proportions. Great job dloots.

dloots
05-23-2005, 08:04 AM
Thanks to all for the support and friendly comments:

Tariq12, SigFire, nebezial, the_mighty_m, Arc80, xric7 and snowkiwi.

I really enjoyed this competition and wish you all luck in your challenges.

Thanks again

ilusiondigital
05-23-2005, 09:34 AM
Hummmmm, sexy girl, i fall in love with her :drool:

3DForEverything
05-28-2005, 07:14 AM
good job here ! Like a lot your picture :thumbsup:

bdblok
05-30-2005, 10:31 AM
hi!
first off, very nice overall image!

just wanted to share my thoughts on some 'details'

-theres a 'dent' in her leg below the hip?
-i wonder where her arm has gone! for me you should see at least her wrist and hand

sorry if it has been mentioned / explained! didnt have time to read it all :)

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05-30-2005, 10:31 AM
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