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fabianR
04-05-2005, 03:23 PM
Jannis Labelle and Pixelspell's Alberto model

A few days ago Kai started a thread about a model to be seen in the "Woman in White" part of Jannis Labelle's site (www.labelleart.com (http://www.labelleart.com/)). This model looks amazingly like Pixelspell's Alberto model used to look some time ago when Jannis was a member of Pixelspell:

http://www.studio-fabian.de/jannis/01.jpg

http://www.studio-fabian.de/jannis/02.jpg

History: During the time Jannis was a member of Pixelspell, I started to do the rigging of Alberto and posted the files for every member to test in the closed Pixelspell forum. Soon after Jannis left Pixelspell. At no point in time he was doing any work on the Alberto character. When he left, he informed Pixelspell that none of the work he did was ever to be used by Pixelspell, something none of those leaving ever did before or after. We accepted his decision and I personally felt to still be on good terms with him. We exchanged friendly emails occasionally.

My email to Jannis: When I saw this character on his site I was shocked. Here is the email I sent him:

Hi Jannis,

I really can't believe you used the Alberto model for a commercial project *and* put it on your site as yours. Please remove the picture from your site immediatly. Furthermore we will send you an invoice for the modeling work on our Alberto model and inform our lawers.

Here's a quote from your reply to Kai's post on CG-Talk:

I was heavely involved in this project in modeling animating and stroyboarding. In fact I was in control of one of the three lead characters in the film. I was also asked to develop the next film and the guys came to see me from germany to ask to help.


This is more then just one lie and you know it. The character you worked on, Stinky, was never planned to be a lead character and has since been removed from the script altogether. No one asked you to develop anything on your own, merely to be part of a development team. No one came over from Germany in order to see you. Ralf, and only him, happened to be in London anyhow and was curious to meet you, that's all. And no one asked for help, I simply invited you to be part of the team. This proved to be a bad idea for two reasons: You didn't manage to work in a team and had not been able to accept any kind of critic *and* you stole our model to use it for a commercial project.

I hope very much that you at least accept to take down the picture from your website and to pay us for the the modeling work you didn't do.

His first reply:

Do inform your lawers

His second reply (edited):


Still go and use your lawers, you have no leg to stand on but I will clarify this so you don't get on my case again.

The model is not the same, I can send it over to you or anyone else to check to topology. It might resemble the one YOU! send me, so how could I steal it anyway. It resembles alberto as much as Dyffy duck resemble Donald Duck. The face is not the same, the legs are not the same, there is resmblence in the arms and body, but I can send you pictures of many modles with those features. Everyone who can see my modeling skills would lough at the assertion of me being able to model that or not.
(...)
I did not steal anything nor do I have the need to. If you have asked me nicely to take the picture down because you don't want similarities of the two meshes to harm the chances of whatever you are doing, I would have done it as a friendly gesture because I have known you and not because this is the same mesh. But using this tone obviously I will not.
(...)
Maybe you should have a look at all my other work and see if they resemble anything out there. Myabe also some one should come and ask you for copyright because Kaki is lifted straight out of Ants. This kind or argumment is idiotic to say the least.

I find this whole affair pathetic and I was not surprised by Kai because he is an idiot and every one knows this. But I thought of you as a man who has character, I am sorry now that I misjudged you.

If any of you plan to slander me around I don't care (anyone who knows my work would know how ridiculous this is) but I hope that at least you have the courage and diginty to post my reply at the same time as all your bulshit in your forum for people to see the truth.

Now, maybe you can come back and ask my nicely this time.

I then asked him to send over the model as he offered. He didn't, but instead he send me a number of screenshots, designed to show how very different both meshes were. i found it rather intresting, how fast he was to have the Alberto mesh ready which he says is very badly modeled. I would have to spend hours to find a copy of the Stinky mesh he did back then if I could at all. Here's the text as well as some of his screenshots:

Here are 8 screen shots of the meshes that prove the topology is different.

Further more they prove that, what your modeller did was to simply rip off the Otto mesh and pull some points here and there. I have included some screen shots that clearly indicate this. There is no difference in the Otto topology and Alberto, so exactly what part of your mesh is original?

It is amazing that you have the oddacity to call this modelling.

There is no idea of anatomy or muscle flow in the mesh that you send me, just a simple copy of Otto (makes me laugh to accuse me of theft).

I also used Otto as a starting point but at least had some kind of pride in making the modeling my own. On my mesh hand there is definition of the deltoid, the trapazious, the biceps are defined, the belly is modelled with edge loops, the legs are different, unless I am mistaken and those are trousers.

I have now spend more time than I either have or want to spend on this idiotic claim.


http://www.studio-fabian.de/jannis/03.jpg

http://www.studio-fabian.de/jannis/04.jpg

http://www.studio-fabian.de/jannis/05.jpg

http://www.studio-fabian.de/jannis/06.jpg

I'm still very certain that Jannis based his character on a copy of Alberto. He obviously changed a little something here and there, adding a few cuts, either originally or after I asked him to present the mesh, but without significantly changing the overall appearance of the character. I never said that Jannis was a bad artist not able to model anything like Alberto. But the fact that you could do something doesn't give you the right to take it.
-
Fabian Rosenkranz
www.studio-fabian.de (http://www.studio-fabian.de/)
www.pixelspell.net (http://www.pixelspell.net/)
Per-Anders
04-05-2005, 04:44 PM
hmm, i have to honestly say that regardless of the mesh images he showed you to show the difference, it's quite clear that they underlying meshes are in fact the same with some minor adjustments. for instance look at the hand and wrist in the images of the arm, exact same topology and point positions (how likely is that?) and then the overall point positioning throughout the model. and areas of similarity, the images may want you to focus on the differences but it's the points that are in the same place, the silhouetes we see, and the topology that is still the same with a few cuts through it that make me think that both of your models are the same.

the different areas are clearly the result of some very minor modifications that would be easy to pull apart in a court of law. it's also of note that he clearly has your original mesh on his system (for him to make the screen captures) which unless you gave him permission to remove assets with him when he left could also be considered rather dubious.

it's a shame as clearly jannis can model (as he's added the legs section for example to your existing base mesh), and I have no idea why he would do such a thing, but it is very obvious that this is in fact your base mesh which is your property.
AdamT
04-05-2005, 05:08 PM
Sorry to say it, but I've got to agree with Mdme_Sadie. Even the somewhat unusual T-stance is identical.
mmhnemo
04-05-2005, 05:33 PM
It's pretty obvious - a shame.
Erik Heyninck
04-05-2005, 05:47 PM
This is from any point of view a very sad posting. It can be true, I won't say it can't.

On the other hand: why should we know?
In case someone wants to go to court, then it is a question of guilt, and that's for a judge to decide. If there is no such intention, then, again: why should we know? To ban him from the cinema community?

I cannot understand how someone as talented as Yannis would do something so stupid. He is a *very* visible person, even a teacher, so, as the meshes look so much alike, uploading this to a well-visited website is asking for trouble.
Something isn't logical.
As for his reaction: it's quite normal that in a situation of being publicly accused, there is a lot of tension, even fear. Whether one is guilty or not.

Anyway: as long as someone is not convicted, he is not guilty. And I won't decide as that's for a judge to do.

So why do we have to know?
Why, once again, this post?
Hilt
04-05-2005, 05:54 PM
Ok. Another Bold and the Beautiful -like soap opera launches in CGtalk.

Do the chars look the same? Yes, both are fat men. Who has the copyright on that?

Is the topology the same? If both characters are based on Otto, as Jannis indicated, it is pretty pointless to use it if you're going to change the very basic topology of the mesh. Therefore I think the Jannis' char isnt Alfred, which isnt Otto.

Nice modeling anyway on both characters, no matter who was the first lucky one to watch reference images of that topic before starting modeling :eek:

.hilt
mummey
04-05-2005, 05:56 PM
This is from any point of view a very sad posting. It can be true, I won't say it can't.

On the other hand: why should we know?

Say for example, I am a manager looking across portfolio's of potential hires. I come across this and...



So why do we have to know?
Why, once again, this post?

This thread is the owner responding to the situation. I think he (Fabian) has every right to do so under the circumstances.
R1PPER
04-05-2005, 06:10 PM
I think this thred is pretty pointless...So what if the base model is the same it's been altered so much....no one but a super geek would spot it.

I have guys in the studio Sticking my stuff in there portfolio...it can be anoying but the work gets shared around and if they even make a type amend they think they have the god given right to say its theres. Its pretty sad that they haven't got enough good work of there own...but its life. If it was a closer match then fair do's but it's pretty different. My 2 cents.
MJV
04-05-2005, 06:16 PM
Since both meshes come from Otto, I would imagine that there would be similarities in height, point placement, and topology. Considering that they both started from the same mesh, in my opinion there are enough differences, some of them significant, that no court in the world would rule for Fabien. I assume the issue was brought here to have the case tried in the court of public opinion, but I rather think that it should be dealt with in private. I think Jannis would probably have a stronger case for slander than Fabien has for theft. Also, I have extremely little admiration for people posting private messages in public.
Per-Anders
04-05-2005, 06:29 PM
i have to admit that on second evaluation as i'd missed the bit about the otto mesh before, then that would explain the similarities in underlying topology. however it doesn't really explain the striking similarity in silhouete and actual shape, and if jannis' mesh is based on fabians then that is wrong, as while otto is a freely useable mesh, fabians is not.

however i think you're right in that this wouldn't hold up. however it is of note to potential employers on the forum.
lllab
04-05-2005, 06:29 PM
MJV
exactly...
pit
04-05-2005, 06:34 PM
"Further more they prove that, what your modeller did was to simply rip off the Otto mesh and pull some points here and there. I have included some screen shots that clearly indicate this. There is no difference in the Otto topology and Alberto, so exactly what part of your mesh is original?"


Fabian, could you post the above mentioned screen shots as well? For the sake of fairness.
ernia
04-05-2005, 06:47 PM
It seems the blindfold is slipping from our Lady Justice.

That said, I for one would like to know how this plays out, only because I was about to purchase Mr. Labelle's texturing material. IF he's guilty I don't want to buy it from him. That's all.

In today's world things happen so quickly and not always with intention. He may or may not be guilty, but that's not for me to decide because I am not qualified. I do like to steer clear of shady characters whenever I get the headsup, though, as I am quite qualified to determine the extent of my barters.

For my part, I believe the procedure is to wait until the defense rests before a judgement is made.

ernia
AdamT
04-05-2005, 07:12 PM
Since both meshes come from Otto, I would imagine that there would be similarities in height, point placement, and topology. Considering that they both started from the same mesh, in my opinion there are enough differences, some of them significant, that no court in the world would rule for Fabien. I assume the issue was brought here to have the case tried in the court of public opinion, but I rather think that it should be dealt with in private. I think Jannis would probably have a stronger case for slander than Fabien has for theft. Also, I have extremely little admiration for people posting private messages in public.
I disagree. By analogy, you can't take "Stairway to Heaven", change a few notes and some lyrics, and claim that it's your own--even though all the notes and words used in the original song are available to anyone.

Nonetheless, I definitely agree that this whole thing should have been handled better from start to finish, and I consider it unethical to publish private messages on public forums without the author's permission.
R1PPER
04-05-2005, 07:15 PM
Adam...have you listened to the UK charts lately. :scream:
ThirdEye
04-05-2005, 07:34 PM
Adam...have you listened to the UK charts lately. :scream:

hope he didn't, they suck :p