Face Topology research

[jmBoekestein]

Let's start with this for a reference. I'm subscribing for news of more.

starting link on beautiful: >>link (http://www.beautyanalysis.com/index2_mba.htm)<<

First question for you. Are you interested in the geometry or final look of the mesh or the toppology, ie the structure of the mesh. A good deal of research has been done allready on how to get a good mesh for a face.

For the latter I suggest this site, which helped me model. NURBS are used in the examples and in practice too I think. But the theory for good deformation applies to anything currently in use I think.:

>>link (http://coldfusion.art.msstate.edu/camenisch/theHumanHead/index.html)<<

[tinitus]

wow great links!
know the second one...found it years ago and it really helped me ,too!

hm think that the mesh is really important for the final look ,but in this thread I try to mention and discuss the main look of human faces...the main guidlines which let a model becomes human and realistic!

[jmBoekestein]

I'm up for it. Very interesting subject. Will need to do some thorough searching and researching before I post anything useful though.

[sabusomu]

Thanx a lot tinitus for starting this thread. It will be really helpfull for me.

The first link opened with only a black screen to me.

Thanx.

[CGmonkey]

It's something very artisticly limiting you're doing.

It's not always about "one magic formula", it's about portraying a character. If that character need to be evil, kind, generous, spontanous or crazy, it's all gotta click with the appaerence.

So building up a mesh of how a face should look, you should add "ultra-ultra realism". But even that won't suffice, because IMO in order to make CG look realistic you need to stretch and over-proportionize human features.

Topology, I've found, is not a magic formula either because depending on what you want you need different topologys. What we need to study is different ways topology effects the skin and mesh in order to apply the best topology for the solution. I've found that I have never used the same topology twice.

Anyway, just my 2 cents, good luck with your research.

[jmBoekestein]

I'm sorry but I have to profoundly disagree with your opinion Mr. CgMonkey.:curious:

The very nature of humans is to look for a mate that looks somewhat like them and is therefore compatible. The why are some people almost worshipped by masses all over the globe. Because there simply is the base human face that we all like, a genetically preprogrammed structure, sort of like the reference material for us all. Why do we look different then? Well for starters, loads of diseases could stop your growth in one way or another, and mutation can happen at random or intentfully. The list is almost infinite.
Fact remains that in movies beautiful or at least cute people will be used for a long time from now, probably for ever. What you call character are things that deviate or stress that underlying structure. For instance, a more heavy cheekbone structure with less fat but more muscle is more prone to catch shadows and will look "more" beautiful than the rubberballoon type face. Provided of course the underlying bones are in the right place.

Get it. And thanks for the pat on the back, I'm just saying that it will help you understand why and what is beautiful to actively look into these things. But you don't have to naturally, just saying that it helped me a lot.

Cheers:beer:

PS:You don't mean to tell me that you wouldn't start a basic topology that can be altered into man or woman in any hsape you need,just to skip the tedious part for once?

[tinitus]

sabusomu - no problem...hope it will be really helpfull!

jmBoekestein - great...I think any comment and critic can improve that thread!

CgMonkey - hey...in some case you're right but the first image I posted shows just guidlines to model a human face.When you look at references you'll quickliy notice that (imo) the green and especially the blue lines always "appears" in human faces...thats a basic guide in every face...you can set up porportion as you want it...like making the nose big and edgy and the eyes small but than you have to fit your mouth to the right size...you're right.there is no magical solution out there but as there are "perspective lines" or the "golden cut" you can try to search after some basics you have to notice when you're modeling...so perhaps I didn't really mentioned it yet but these guidlines are just helping to find the right proportion...as you see I'm not using them to 100% but I think they are really helpfull to let it look more human and more realistic!
there are so many different face out there and every single one isn't looking the same...but you can nearly draw the green and blue lines through every face you're looking at!
keep watching!


sorry for my english it's to early in the morning!!

[jmBoekestein]

This is the site URL planely: www.beautyanalysis.com (http://www.beautyanalysis.com)

hope it works.

[tinitus]

great post jmBoekestein (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=122290)!think so too! :beer:

[jmBoekestein]

Cheers!

This'll be a fun and useful thread before long. I think I'll try and combine it with the modelling of the humanoids in the M&S entry I have. That way I can put it to use right away.

Thanks for starting this thread.


I'm wondering now, whether we should also somehow involve 2d artists here if they have the time. They moust also have some things to share, at least on the basic proprtions.

[CGmonkey]

jmBoekestein - Okey, design an afro-american person with your guidelines, or better yet a japanese girl. You'll clearly see where you thesis fail ;) I'm the first to fold if proven otherwise.

[jmBoekestein]

Check out the bloody links dude!!! It's real research not flights of fancy.

[CGmonkey]

Check out the bloody links dude!!! It's real research not flights of fancy.

You've clearly missed my whole point. I'm not talking about perfectly crafted human beings. And if you would pay more attention to my original post I clearly stated "it's about portraying a character". It's very rare I want to do a perfect human face, and if I want to do I'll be sure to use whatever reasearch there is on the subject :)

And even if you were to do a traditional "beatiful" hollywood face, you sould require to exaturate just a tiny bit because I've yet to see a realistic cg face.

All I wanted to say is I believe that there are no magic formula, I can see your point and I very clearly see your "attraction towards similarities".

You're limiting yourself to realism aswell, topology reasearch involves toon, proportionized-funny- and horror - characters..

[jmBoekestein]

I didn't miss your point, when exactly examening the pictures in beauty analysis you'll find that all the different "characters" deviate on just one or two features while remaining perfectly attractive. If you want to do caricatures you'll still need to know how much to deviate from the form presented. Otherwise, if your going to put ugly people in your work, you can ignore my remarks. But I myself aim to make things of beauty, just what I want.

As to other characters, your talking topology as in good deformation or just deformed. I'm well aware of that. But are you telling me that a troll has eight legs and wears glasses? Or a spider drives to work on a moped. I know what you mean about character. But what do you know that it is. Are you going around winging it until you strike it lucky or do you knowwhat you're doing. And this just isn't an issue for faith. Basically the evidence speaks for itself. Maybe interpretting the meaning of the fact that we all look alike is open to interpretation.

:)

[CGmonkey]

Yes, of course everything deviate from a basic human face, strange otherwise would be.

I'm currently researching child topology, where as I started from my general perseption of how a topology structure normally look like (highly influenced by Roberth Chang's research). I found it was quite impossible, too dense and structures got highlighted that isn't highlighted on children.

There are structures in a human face that isn't there in others.. One example of many is the "levator labii superioris alaeque nasi"-muscle that is very prominent in some people but are non-existent on some people. With your "normal" face topology it's nearly impossible to achieve this.

As said before, I don't think you should accept that there is one magic formula for age, origin and sex. Where's the purpose if you can just press a "make a generic human face"-button ?

[jmBoekestein]

there working on it actually!

I still say you can begin from a starting point that is very basic, involving basic edgelooping.
Simply FFD from there and have what you need.

An illustration would be nice for the elaborate name. Didn't study and in fact never went to school back then. Proof? I say you can start with a basic cage and work along guidelines. I'm betting I could make a chimp out of a basic human mesh without much trouble. But I guess here and now time will tell. I'll do a google on the aforementioned features, I doubt I'll agree though. The limits are in the technology, adjusting to that is the flaw in the theory derived from all this.

[jmBoekestein]

http://www.meddean.luc.edu/lumen/MedEd/GrossAnatomy/dissector/mml/images/llsa.jpg
It's the red one right? Looks to me like a case of adding more edges between the edgeloops of the mouth and eye, wouldn't have any consequences in muscle simulation or animation(of course the denser the more work).

I don't understand your point. This would be a case of editing inbetween major features, the reference base would still be the hard points like the skull.:shrug:

[CGmonkey]

Here's some models I did last year.
This is your "normal" face topology with some minor changed perhaps:

http://www.artbybear.com/topology1.jpg

Here's what I had to in order to get the muscles I wanted right:

http://www.artbybear.com/topology2.jpg

Kevin spacey, Brian Thompson etc to name a few names that share this feature. It becomes more evident on old people.

[jmBoekestein]

I see that the first model doesn't allow what you want as easily. But shifting the underlying mesh/edgeloops would have solved it. Did you have any trouble making smile morph shapes(looks like Maya:)?

Because you might get weird shearing on the cheek between the eye and the mouth corners.

[tinitus]

I didn't miss your point, when exactly examening the pictures in beauty analysis you'll find that all the different "characters" deviate on just one or two features while remaining perfectly attractive.

I think that's absolutly right!My first post shows what I found out about guildlines of human looking faces...and if you would study some references I think you would agree...naturally there are a lot of things which are not 100% perfect and in my opinion is a perfect face imperfect but the main reason of this thread is to find a way to model a face in the right way...
why would everyone post his head and search for a reason why it's not looking "okay" or "good"?!
there ARE main "locked" proportions and guidlines in every face...

If you want to do caricatures you'll still need to know how much to deviate from the form presented.
that's it!!! the proportion has to be the same!


otherwise I have to say that it isn't really helpfull to model only with guidlines and or imageplanes...à propros in my opinion noboy should ever use imageplanes in orthographic views...you take a perspective picture of a perspective person in a perspective world and try to model in an orthographic view...??!!
that's really shizophrenic ,isn't it?!

[tinitus]

here is what I tried to say all the time :


http://www.dreamslikereality.de/girl_guidelines_02.jpg

[sabusomu]

I think i am really blessed that u guys r disscussing this topic here. I don't think it is a fight going on here. :applause:

Let me contribute on this a little.
I found this thread today mornning before living for the academy. I just spotted the first topology pic and decided to notice it when going to the acdemy. I noticed almost every face i came after and for my surprise it worked for almost all normal faces where the face belongs to some young guy or gal.

where as it didn't worked too perfectly for mid aged and aged faces. especially men.

Now let me tell u something : I am an Indian. I thought thought that Indian face has got a bit rough features than european or jap faces. But i think it helps. it is no formula but it works.

specially when i modeled my first human face and posted it here in wip section I really had no idea as such. And i also had a real shortage of references. I haven't found any proper blueprint for a lady face when i started. But i will start modeling it again today and i hope will get a better result this time.

Guys www.beautyanalysis.com not working for me. going to a page with a skip intro button only. don't understand what's wrong. will try with my firewall off. theHuman head site is gr8.

I know it is offtopic here. but do anybody has some links or site or thread on whole human anatomy??? It wud help me a lot. :)

Lastly plz don't mind my bad English. I can't help it.

[tinitus]

hey sabusomu (http://www.cgtalk.com/member.php?u=135420)... great that it worked for you too!

in my opinion the reason why it didn`t worked perfectly for older men could be that all the face muscles aren't the newst anymore?!

[jmBoekestein]

Blast, it's a really good site!

I just switched to firefox. It's way better and more safe than IE. All pages load 4 times as fast. I used to have red X's all over:shrug:.

CgMonkey,
I think that you moved a crossing point of major lines in the face after reconsideration, I still stand with the idea of having a base logic for all faces. The trade off iis in a diffrent location but it's not the answer, at least no in animation. They're very good models thoug. Would like your neutral critique, pretty please:arteest:

[digdenton]

First off I would like to say these links have really helped me in my work. CGMonkey, you do have a point that not all faces follow exactly these guidelines, especially in animation, as many times in animation the goal is the exaggerate reality. However, one thing I have learned through doing classical art is that in order to create compelling drawings that attract a viewer, it is essential to have basic relationships resolved before you start moving away from that. You did this with your own work it seems where you created a true to life head and then moved away from that for the desired look. For someone relatively new to CG this thread should be required reading in my opinion, and I applaud Tinitus and jmBoekestein for providing this information. Just my two cents.

[Don Kayote]

I find this place (http://www.stupidlookingpeople.com/e107_plugins/coppermine_menu/index.php) quite helpful to study human face topologies.

[tinitus]

thx cg_joe!

hehe don kayote funny site!

[jmBoekestein]

yeah thanks cg_joe!

:surprised, is that legal?

[toontje]

Hey I think it is great that there is this topic specificaly for face topology. But after reading for a while I see that your are only discussing the characterics of a beuatiful face.
I am a newbie and I think any newbie can model a beautiful shrink wrapped face devoided of any character. I have a million or so questions to ask and I hope I'll get it in this thread.

For example let us discuss how to model a mesh around folds and rimples in the skin. I always have a lot of diffuclty modeling the nose, how to you come about on that? There is something about triangles is not that harmfull after all, but stars are real evil. Is there a method to eliminate stars?
What is the goal of face topology? A beuatiful face? Or a face that can exhibit a wide spectrum of emotions (like in Shrek, the Incridbles and Final Fantasy <-- JOKE :D)

How do a topology of a mesomorph, endomorph and ectomorph person compare to each other?
what kind of topology would be used in what kind of situations? What kind of modelling technique is preferable? Vert by vert? Box modelling? Nurbs patches?

I am a lousy modeller, but can I post some of my workflow and wip's here without having my ass chewed on?

[toontje]

Hey I think it is great that there is this topic specificaly for face topology. But after reading for a while I see that your are only discussing the characterics of a beuatiful face.
I am a newbie and I think any newbie can model a beautiful shrink wrapped face devoided of any character. I have a million or so questions to ask and I hope I'll get it in this thread.

For example let us discuss how to model a mesh around folds and rimples in the skin. I always have a lot of diffuclty modeling the nose, how to you come about on that? There is something about triangles is not that harmfull after all, but stars are real evil. Is there a method to eliminate stars?
What is the goal of face topology? A beuatiful face? Or a face that can exhibit a wide spectrum of emotions (like in Shrek, the Incridbles and Final Fantasy <-- JOKE :D)

How do a topology of a mesomorph, endomorph and ectomorph person compare to each other?
what kind of topology would be used in what kind of situations? What kind of modelling technique is preferable? Vert by vert? Box modelling? Nurbs patches?

I am a lousy modeller, but can I post some of my workflow and wip's here without having my ass chewed on?

[sabusomu]

gr8 idea. what do ya think guys???

[tinitus]

hey toontje
...first of all I want to say that I'm really happy about everyone who shows interest in this thread...so now let's go to you questions...well in my opinion "how to model face topology" and "the analysis of beautiful faces" are connected to each other ... so I started this thread with some "guidelines" ... well I think we gonna find a lot of great pictures and sites about mesh topologies and how to model those ... and everyone should feel free to post these questions ,answeres and links!
but I know that I can model completly without any tris or big stars.there aren't any tris or n sided faces in my latest models.but I recognized very soon that there is a limit if you're just interested how to model right.so you have to know what you are modeling and where you got to put your vertex so that it looks right!!!
and beautiful faces are the most difficult things in 3d!
after all I have to say that we all must learn how to model faces!and one of the first steps is to understand why you have to move your nose a bit higer and to make your mouth bigger to let it look like an human beeing!
so you mentioned that every newbie could model a standard custom face without any character?I don't think so!modeling is one of the biggest challenges!many think they can model and even some think they might be pros because some of their model looks good.but if you want to create something special and something that shall look exactly like you want it to ... that's more hard work than I have ever imagened!
but well this thread is exactly made to discuss these topics and we'll discuss mesh topology pretty soon I guess.

in some days I hope I finished my latest model and I will post a model tutorial or even just a slideshow of my savedfiles...

so keep on posting...

hey jmBoekestein com'on post some more great links and posts! :thumbsup: :D

[tinitus]

oh i forgot!

I think I preferd vert per vert modeling...sometimes I tried boxmodeling but I never used patches or any nurbs stuff on human faces!
think that you can do details just with polys very well!

what do you think guys?!

[jmBoekestein]

as to patch modelling, ahum...the question was thoroughly argumented in this thread >>blink (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=196618&page=1&pp=15&highlight=NURBS+modelling)<<. Started by yours truly. I would still, given enough time, first go to patches to plan out topological issues and try and force squares only. And then just convert. But I haven't tried polymodelling yet, well not on a humanoid anyway.

Anybody can model a nice looking face? Not a chance, you're kidding yourslef. First take a look around you and remember what it looks like, then compare to your own models. You'll keep finding things wrong with it. It's not because you're a "bad artist", the detail simply doesn't fit into a computer. But approximating it accurately is very tough.

As for posting pics here, I'm unsure what to say, but for ordinary WIPs I guess it could be best to post them in the 3d WIP section. But anything that helps learning by all means. Let's have that beautiful face:). Good icebreaker I guess.

btw, care to explain what the mesomorph, ectomorph and endomorph persons are?

any links relevant to this I'll just paste behind here as I find them:D, lol.


Hey I found one!!! >>link (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=227590)<<

[gonemad]

I just read through this thread and I'm not entirely sure what's going on here. There was some good reference posted but other then that it seems that there's just a lot of discussion as to wether formula faces are good or not.

My two cents:

I think all the stuff about beautiful faces that's been talked about here is very important to know, but not for the reasons that the rest of you do. It's anatomy reference and just that. Every face has proportional relationships that don't change much no matter what your race or gender. These proportional relationships differ with age, but besides things like deformity, that's about it. It's crucial to know how these proportions work wether or not you're going to deviate from them purposfully. Knowing the proportions of a real human allows characatures of the human form to be more believeable dispite their fantastic appearance. If you don't study this first and dive right in to making cartoons or such then your art is not going to be what it could.

Next I think a key point is being missed here. That that point is purpose. What is the purpose of your art? Are you making an animation? Or are you just recreating the human form digitally (like CG bodydoubles)? Animated characters have to carry a story, and they have to convey their characters traits quickly, so very much so they have to be exaggerated. Even if just a little. If they follow the "beautiful" formula they're going to fail. The first Final Fantasy movie should be proof of this. The technical aspects like the models and the animation were great. The models on their own looks spectacular as humans, but when they're put into motion and they have to "act" they fell short. We see hundreds of people everyday, when you show someone a cg character who's suposed to look real and try to make it preform, their brain is going tell them that it's a fake. You're asking the viewer to believe it's real first, then believe in the character. You have to get the viewer to suspend their disbelief for the animation, now you're asking them to believe two things, if the first fails then the second isn't going to have a chance. Exaggerated characters are obviously fake so the viewers mind can let go of the reality question and work on believe in the character.

Now if you're just making a CG body double then yes it's very important to replicate the human form as close to reality as possible. In this case beauty dosn't really come into play though since you're trying to replicate someone specific and the only important part is that it looks exactly like them. Proportions will play a huge role in this.

Now I'm not saying that it's a pointless excercise to try to create realistic humans in cg for anything other then body doubles I'm just saying that yes this information is important to know, but it's also just as important to know when not to use it.

Personally I find generic idealized human forms, no matter how close to the beauty analysis they are, to be completely boring and devoid of character. I like imperfections, the world if full of them and that, to me, makes the character that much more believable.

just my thoughts anyway.

[tinitus]

hey gone.mad
it's very interesting what you've posted and you said a lot of true things there!
but I think the main problem is proportion of an human face!
so how you model something is one thing...the other and in my opinion more important thing is what to model.
When I'm looking into the wip section more than 90%of any human character doesn't really look real or even a bit human and any of their modelers would say of themselves to be a good modeler ,thought!
so my question is :what's going wrong when the nose is three times bigger than it should be and the face looks like the moon and not real proportioned?!
you shall model in a good mesh topology wether you`re trying to animate it or simply doing single images.but your best mesh topology can`t make your model looks good!
it's true some good set edges can improve your model pretty well but that's only helpfully when your base mesh is right!
so what I'm trying to tell all the time is that there are so many models out of control and nobody knows what to improve to let them look more realistic!
and hey...no matter if you're trying to create a standard custom face or a very characteristic and or imperfect face you have to know first what is human and which proportions are totaly lock or connected to each other!!!

ps here is a wire of my current model.think the mesh topology is all right.'cause you can set up any emotion without any problem.
http://www.dreamslikereality.de/stewardess_wire.jpg

[jmBoekestein]

just a note to add to that and I feel obliged to say that many people advice against spline based and NURBS modelling due to it's inherent limitations and rather slow progress with tedious technicalities.
Some people have found it helpful, me among others to first start NURBS and force a more usable topology and then go onto more versatile methods(see link above). Of detailing. But a very good idea to me now is to model a base mesh very roughly and do the rest in something like Zbrush. But I have no experience with it whatsoever.(gonna try very soon though, might let you know here)

gone.mad, I saw your post yesterday and thought it a very good point, there needs to be basic understanding of the human form to deviate properly. I agree and I'm trying to work out some guidelines too on bone placement/structure. It struck me that there's always a ration along several bones since muscles connect them. Hope to have something soon.

[toontje]

Hey Tinitus,
The tired stewardess looks just AWESOME. Since you modelled her vert by vert, would you care to explain the techniques you used? How do you make your edge loops and why did you make them flow like that? Were there any trade offs? Which area should one pay most attention too? How do you shape the overall volume?
Like I said before, I am a newbie and I tried vert by vert modelling and box modelling. Box modelling works best for me because I can achieve an more or less correct volume early on in the modeling process.
In this forum I presented (in my opinion) an easy way to start a box modelling session. It's not about the details but the speed which I reached this overall shape. I really care about your opinion on this one : http://www.elysiun.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26860&highlight=

[tinitus]

hey toontje
thx a lot!
I`ll write something lika a tutorial next week because lot of people asked me how I modeled her and I didn`t modeled her the usual way
but in my opinion it's pretty easy because you've got full control of what your doing!
I think it`ll be something like a model-video-tutorial 'cause I've got MANY work-in-progress-saved-files!

when you're boxmodeling you have to set up the undetailed but finished shape first.after detailing it`s nearly impossible to improve your model without hard work ,thought!
that`s pretty difficult...well wait for the tutorial.hope it`ll help you!

[jmBoekestein]

Well if you want my advice, here it is since it will take Tinitus some time.

You definitely need more detail on the cheekbone area to define how it would deform. I think the lines going away from the top of the nostrils will not work for you in the end. This seems a common misstake I think, I made the same on my WIP. Note the problem stated above and observe the edgeflow on the nostrils on both. Go check in a mirron when you smile extremely wide, you'll see a crease which has to be defined with an edgeloop going under the chin. Adding more detail to the nose is a must I think, you could try looping edges from the hole in the nose over the front of the nose and back into the hole.

You seem to be missing the lobe at the outer sides of the eye, there is somthing hanging there which definitely needs to be defined in order to animate it properly.
I myself would have preferred to end edges coming from the cheek under the jaw line. Since muscle movement tends to work circles from around the mouth.

I think you're doing nicely on proportions. It's a solid start, you can try and add more detail but like this you can't call it a usable base shape yet.

Hope this helps and good luck.

[toontje]

Thanks for your suggestion. They were helpful indeed.
I have a few questions though. It is true that the cheeckbone area need more details. But will adding detail to the cheeckbone area mess up the edge loops?
I tried to do this in this attempt but to no avail (old model though):
http://home.wanadoo.nl/toontje/headfinal2.jpg


http://home.wanadoo.nl/toontje/headfinal1.jpg

This is just a try out. But as you can see there are stars all over the place. I try to elliminate them by rotating some edges here and there. Is this typical of box modelling that adding detail will mess up your edge loops?
As far as the nose goes... It is a very difficult part of the face indeed. And I recognized that it is best to make the bridge of the nose part of the eyemask loop and the tip of the nose part of the mouth loops. Then you have the base of the nose above the upperlip that should have its own edge loops so you can extrude/ pull the nosetip out without pulling the upperlip. The biggest problem I have is to connect the nostrils correctly in the flow of the edge loops.

[jmBoekestein]

Well there are scripts and tools for Maya and Max to work with adding edgeloops(search for MJPolytools 1.3) and detail but most packages don't offer that functionality. I believe, but I'm not sure, that silo offers good topology tools and it's cheap. Zbrush is more expensive and offers very good tools also.
here's what I'd try and do, I drew out the dotted lines as a suggestion. I'm no expert though. I might have overlooked things as well. Good luck with it.
http://img85.exs.cx/img85/5042/progress1return1ms.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

[toontje]

Yeah! Silo is great. It has some nice topology tools, but I'm a Blender user. I don't think that I'll be switching anytime soon. I prefer Blender even over Wings3D for it has some functions that even Wings don't have. And beside the development is going very fast now in comparison to what is was a few years back.
Anyway I think 'topology shaping' is a important thing to talk about, regardless of the software used.

[Vertizor]

Probably every beginner (myself included) will struggle with areas of fine detail such as the nose. In fact I even went as far as starting off specifically modeling just the nose.

When it comes to the nose, eyes, and mouth, they will be very dense with polygons (very dense for the small surface area I mean). When I think "topology" as per this discussion I'm thinking about the flow of edges a.k.a edge loops. Here's one mistake I made:

The horizontal edges running across the nose also go all around towards the back of the head. This turned out very bad for me because it's also making the cheek bone area under the eye very dense and thus harder to keep smooth. I ended up with a lot of unwanted wrinkles. Sure I can sit here for hours and hours fixing and smoothing it out. But what happens when I need to add more details? It's a vicious cycle and not productive at all. Hit me with the stoopid stick.

Solution: I haven't perfected it yet but this is what I'm planning to do. Turn those edges running horizontally into rings that loop around the nose and mouth area. The mouth will need lots of edges/verts (however you look at it) anyways, so by doing this I can isolate all these into the areas that need them. From what I've read in tutorials, this is also good practice because of it's more natural flow, facial animation will be a lot easier/cleaner later on.

[poly-phobic]

Hey I think it is great that there is this topic specificaly for face topology. But after reading for a while I see that your are only discussing the characterics of a beuatiful face.
I am a newbie and I think any newbie can model a beautiful shrink wrapped face devoided of any character. I have a million or so questions to ask and I hope I'll get it in this thread.

For example let us discuss how to model a mesh around folds and rimples in the skin. I always have a lot of diffuclty modeling the nose, how to you come about on that? There is something about triangles is not that harmfull after all, but stars are real evil. Is there a method to eliminate stars?
What is the goal of face topology? A beuatiful face? Or a face that can exhibit a wide spectrum of emotions (like in Shrek, the Incridbles and Final Fantasy <-- JOKE :D)

How do a topology of a mesomorph, endomorph and ectomorph person compare to each other?
what kind of topology would be used in what kind of situations? What kind of modelling technique is preferable? Vert by vert? Box modelling? Nurbs patches?

I am a lousy modeller, but can I post some of my workflow and wip's here without having my ass chewed on?
i think there is a fine line between topology and anatomy that modelers [ noobies and pros alike] misconstrue.
every human being seemingly have the same anatomy, but the "topology" is as different as every finger print are. now, of course there is definately a generic pattern that can extracted from most faces, but as the faces vary in topology the expressions and muscle concentrations will vary. so 2 faces may require one or 2 edge loops around the mouth, but one of those faces may require 3 or 4 to articulate it properly. im not a great modeler either, and this stuff is not written in stone.
so a face "topology" research is beyond the scope of this thread...
imo... and iirc edloops simply help with simulating skin slidding over bones or muscles, its not the holy modeling way of topology

[jmBoekestein]

That IS very confusing. I thought topology was the actual math to describe the surface you are representing with poly's, ie the formulae for the NURBS, the interpolaion and position data for SubDs and the vertex positions and so on. So I assumed that face toppology was only applicable as a generic idea that one derives when deciding to put some edges and vertices in and not so it otherwise. My idea here is to find the niche of the face, I'm no expert though and I'm just trying my best:wise:.

[poly-phobic]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/vladimirjp/stewardess_wire.jpg



back to this "beauty" and "topology" predicament

lets look at your posted wires. im sure the shaded version must look very beautiful, but its whats underneath that worries me.

the cheecks are one of the most animated features of the face, same for the mouth of course. however, from looking at your curve network here, with the slightest joint rotation [assuming you are making a joint based facial rig] u will have tones of harsh creases, this is the nature of a 5 subD [nurbs] layout, the mouth is cluttered with 5 patch polys, and even if u are using blendshapes for animation of phonemes and expressions, u will have a hell of a time making them look right and cohessive; since the default pose looks so nicely modeled, u'll have to be extra carefull with this kind of topology. and the very sternal mastoid muscle has yet more mistakes in the curve [or edge ] network. imagine her head rotating left or right, again if you are not carefull, u may endup with a subtle spike poking out.
-----
On the other hand, i dont want to contradict myself, her anatomy looks as a regular chick as she can be, but the topology does not have to be the same case. As for the paradigm edge loop notion; at the same time i would avoid 5 patch polys, and utilise the spin quad [if your 3d package has that option] operations to get rid of those funky quads i notice all over the place.

[poly-phobic]

That IS very confusing. I thought topology was the actual math to describe the surface you are representing with poly's, ie the formulae for the NURBS, the interpolaion and position data for SubDs and the vertex positions and so on. So I assumed that face toppology was only applicable as a generic idea that one derives when deciding to put some edges and vertices in and not so it otherwise. My idea here is to find the niche of the face, I'm no expert though and I'm just trying my best:wise:.
Topology (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) topos = place and logos = word) is a branch of mathematics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematics) concerned with the study of topological spaces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_space).

Topology is concerned with the study of the so-called topological properties (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topological_property) of figures, that is to say properties that do not change under bicontinuous one-to-one transformations (called homeomorphisms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeomorphism)). Two figures that can be deformed one into the other are called homeomorphic, and are considered to be the same from the topological point of view. For example a solid cube and a solid sphere are homeomorphic.

However, it is not possible to deform a sphere into a circle by a bicontinuous one-to-one transformation. Dimension is in fact, a topological property. In a sense, topological properties are the deeper properties of figures.
exactly my point. 3d artists usually assiciate "topology" to anatomy.

[jmBoekestein]

Thank you vladimir_,

That was very enlightening!:thumbsup:
I'll have to look it over a couple of times to get to grips with the mathematical concepts but I think I get the idea. Allthough I find myself thinking that the amount of vertices should be exactly the same as on the sphere, but that's me being a modifier junky.

[tinitus]

as for the meshtopology of my model
I have to say that I don't have any problems with setting up blendshapes or any deformer and in my opinion you could model a face in two way.you make a lot of edges around the whole face and escape these little stars with a result of a pretty highpoly object or you clean it up and make some little not that harmfully stars.
in think it's your own choice and every way has got his advantages and disadvantages ... but i choosed this way 'cause you can easily set up facial expression and emotions without any great problems...if you have a really highpoly face there is this problem that you get really hard edges and you have to work on it a long time getting them out without deleting them!

here is a model of a friend of mine which is ... in my opinion ... really great and you see there are some stars in there but they aren't harmfully anyway! (model is quads only)
http://www.dreamslikereality.de/bilder/face_wip_blendshape.jpg

[Ibah]

Okay I don't know if anyone already did this but I try to start a "Face Topology research"
so feel free to post your knowledge and lets discuss!




you proabably didnt see it, but there allready is a thread like this, as sticky, always on top.. at this section, *modelling* ...

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=38469&page=1&pp=15

all the stuff you talk about now, is allready thought out there.


the measurements you have drawn could be correct or not, but i do think the mouth of your model is to wide/ thin.

there is a proportian mask, used my surgents, that is 100% correct. for ideal proportioning.
dont have it now do, but its in the modelling- links section

[jmBoekestein]

Hey that's nice!!!

I'd completely missed that. I thought it was about general and any human topology. Bit weird to not call face topology though.

[toontje]

I know of that thread, but I think it lost focus on the subject. These days you see only comments like: "Eyes are too big" or "He looks like he's kissing". It looks like they are discussing posing issues more than they are discussing topology. That is why I'm more interested in this thread.

To go back on track.....
I think it is possible to have one topology that can cover a whole lot of emotions. Just look at Shrek. Shrek, the fairy godmother, prince Charming and the others can express a whole lot of emotions. Subtle expressions are executed brilliantly! So I wonder how their mesh would look like.

[jmBoekestein]

I have seen screenshots of it on the extra's of the DVD's, if you're curious you could look for it in a video rental. It is quite similar to the topology's discussed here on cgtalk lately. Same idea for the same reasons. It requires a trained eye to spot the misstakes in that mesh.

[ReneAlex]

this is a head I'm working on free time.

my topo is intended to fit just a few specific gestures... very simple stylized fembot.

http://img65.exs.cx/img65/527/facewire016ty.th.jpg (http://img65.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img65&image=facewire016ty.jpg)

http://img65.exs.cx/img65/8397/facewire024ih.th.jpg (http://img65.exs.cx/my.php?loc=img65&image=facewire024ih.jpg)

I think any help from a photograph to a matematical matrix that defines the "correct" proportions even a drawing in a piece of papper is a tool to be use without prejudice, in the pursuit for a topology that fit the needs (technical and artistic) of the artist/modeller/animator.

[Rrenderman]

very nice woek, I like the "petite" look on her face. I'm shure it's a french lady... maybe working for Air France, right?

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