a dopesheet is....?

[Dave_Hingley]

traditioanly a dope sheet was used to help animators work out what numbered drawing was apreaing within the scene. In CGi think of the dope sheet as the time line with the keys on it. You can move the keys to diferent frames to alter the timing. this doesnt affect the actual animation, only the timing. To affect the actualy animation you could need to either manually alter the keys or adjust the function curves using graph editor which would affect how something moves between 2 frames.
hope that clears it up. its tricky to explain simply without showing one ....

[5parts]

well i've seen one (in maya) and click around a bit in it, im just wondering if it has any use/fonctions that only it can do, or is it just a pratical tool to help you stay organized in the first steps of an animation, and also allowing you to easily retime your animation down the line without all the confusion of fcurves and a values on the keys, just whats keyed, when.
Reason for all this is, im toying in maya trying to get my head around animation, and since i've done so without using the dopesheet, im wondering what im missiing out on? if anything.

5parts

[OptimusDinkus]

usually it helps in grabing keys more easily with less time consumption (and less headaches). plus a certain work flow is to generally place linear key frames which you can change in the preferences, then wehn the timing looks just right and the poses, you can switch back on maya's interpolation to smooth out everything. Helps in things that require complex poses like lip sync pieces and what not. so there ya go =).

[Craiger]

The dopesheet is.... Useless....

The only thing its really good for is grabbing all of your keys in the entire scene.

[kevinw]

The dopesheet is.... Useless....

The only thing its really good for is grabbing all of your keys in the entire scene.

No offense but that's completely ign'ant. :shrug:

I use the dopesheet all the time!

Here's a great tutorial on the usefulness of the dopesheet
http://www.keithlango.com/tutorials/old/popThru/popThru.html

[Brettzies]

The dopesheet is.... Useless....

The only thing its really good for is grabbing all of your keys in the entire scene.
Yikes! I guess everyone works their own way, but dopesheets are great whatever program you use.

Mainly I use it in the blocking stage. If you block with stepped keys and like to key entire poses, it's much easier to move blocks of keys quickly with it. Character sets are invaluable here to making sure you have all the keys you need. It's also good for offsetting fingers and such. Or just shifting or retiming entire animations. The timeline in maya is also acts as a mini-dopesheet. Not quite the same, but very similar.

[leigh]

A dopesheet is the form you fill out for your dealer, so he can get you your candy.





That was just a little joke.

[j alan hawkins]

Dopesheet is a fundamental part of working in stepped, to solidify your timing

[Craiger]

My opinion is not ignorant.

Why would you ever want to use the dopesheet,, (other than to grab all the keys in a scene) when you can use the graph editor which gives you a better idea of whats actually going on?

[andrewjohn81]

dude, take another look at some of the people that are using the dope sheet, and for good reason. claiming something is useless is indeed ignorant, especially when you don't know what it is good for. I think that may be why they said, saying that was ignorant.
I would take another look at the tutorial. Keith Lango does some amazing work. He's well worth a listen to.

As some peopl have said before, the dope sheet is a great place to be able to look at your timing. Curve editor is really only good for looking at where each key is headed. Dope sheet tells you when keys are being hit by any given object. If you want the wrist movement to follow the arm, but it is the other way around because you accidentally slid the keys over somewhere along the way, then you can use the dope sheet to more easily diagnose the problem.

The dope sheet is far from useless. It does not replace the curve editor at all, but the curve editor can nor replace the dope sheet either. Using the dope sheet properly can add quite a bit of realism to your animations.

[Craiger]

whatever you say... Stick with your dopesheet cause keith lango uses it... :thumbsup:

[kevinw]

My opinion is not ignorant.

Why would you ever want to use the dopesheet,, (other than to grab all the keys in a scene) when you can use the graph editor which gives you a better idea of whats actually going on?

Sorry man didn't mean to offend you I just don't like blanket terms that tell someone a certain tool is useless. Especially if said tool is the Dopesheet. The reason I prefer to slide keys with the DS and not the Curve editor is because once you key a bunch of joints with tons of keys, all of those RGB lines become mass chaos. I just like the way the dopesheet lays it all out. Personal preference I guess.

whatever you say... Stick with your dopesheet cause keith lango uses it... :thumbsup:

That's even more ig'nat than your first statement.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Craiger]

But if he used the traxx editor would you?... I think not.

[eek]

Ok,

5parts a dopesheet stems way back to the early days of animation, and rostrum camera work. It was mastered massively in fantasia. Where you have like 40 or 50 layers. Its a sheet generally a foot long (but i used to tape up 2 or 3 at college), on the left you have you frames, then dialog, then field order, then backgrounds, then transforms etc.

All major 2d productions use them - simpsons, rugrats, family guy etc etc.

Basically a sheet you would breakdown you film, in the frames colume you'd work out an action i.e you'd literally draw your f-curve down the strip of paper and you'd hit your keys, you breakdowns and anything else. Also youd have parts where youd work on 2s, or 4s etc etc.
so e.g from frame 30 -60 you right 2s------------------------------2s, etc.

In dialog, you put you phonetic breakdowns, high points, holds.

You may have a field colume and this relates to you frame size, i used to use 12 field, which is 12 inch on the diagonal, sheet paper, its good for key actions but sometimes youd need to go massive and use 15 field!, the ink and paint on that one eek!

There would probably be a transform field, for your movement in the rostum camera - pans zooms etc etc tilts. The dopesheet here is highly important to keep track of shots, also after every frame taken by the camera we'd tick it off in the sheet.

And youd certainly get background colume, where background meets, parallex stuff, layering. etc. And background may no neccerely be backgrounds, but more layers of character, which youd shoot on 2s.

As to software aproach theyve been around alot, personally i find soft has the best true dopesheet, whereby you use it for blocking base moves, and breakdowns the nice thing with softs 7.9 dopesheet is the ability to turn whole tracks off, so e.g you could turn the body off animate the face then turn it back on.

In max or maya your fcurve is the frame colume just turned sideways, the trax's or dopesheet part is more a simplified versions and there great as you can see the breakdowns. In max you can even see the rotation and position keys differently!

2d programs such as animo still use, and traditional type dopesheet layout.

And i, even using max still used a dopesheet to make my film. Its a great way to breakdown what the hells happening in your films.

Thumbnailing which also happened in the early days i spose is a direct link to dopesheeting as you breaking down your basic keys.

Also you could get a sfx, and score colume.

As for my own personal choice, ive pretty much grown up with the f-curve now, and thumbnailing, when i do do breakdowns and action stuff ill use a pencil and a rubber, its a lot easier for me anyway. I would love a true dopesheet, in max or something.

btw as i mentioned heres a dopesheet from my film i made:

http://www.eekstudios.com/cgtalk/dopesheet.jpg



p.s
My opinion is not ignorant.

Why would you ever want to use the dopesheet,, (other than to grab all the keys in a scene) when you can use the graph editor which gives you a better idea of whats actually going on?

Craiger,

Basically to breakdown massive scenes, and definately feature work. There good for all departments, from sound, to edit to the animators. The cg dopesheet is in a way the essence of what a dopesheet was. I advice you to look at how real paper DS's work, then your'll get a better idea of how they work in cg.


eek

[Craiger]

Thanks... but i have a background in classical. Making notes on your dopesheet is fine and all,, but in maya you can't do that.

[spooner]

I would have to agree with craiger on this one. The dopesheet in MAYA is more of a waste of space than anything else. The only thing it makes easy to do is moving ALL of you keys without moving your SDKs. Coming from a classical background I do agree that a PAPER dope sheet can be usefull in planning out your scene. The key word being PAPER. You can make notes on it and even on it to draw too! All without taking up precious space on your monitor.

[kevinw]

But if he used the traxx editor would you?... I think not.

I think you're missing the point. I don't use it cause Keith Lango uses it. I use it because I find it helpful. But rather than spending time writing an explination and tutorial for the usefulness of the dope sheet, just for this post, I posted the link to a good tutorial that's already out there.

I thought it would be more helpful to 5parts, who was looking for info on the dopesheet, than just saying it's "useless."

If he reads Keith's Tutorial and then decides the dope sheet is crap, then great.. At least he'll know why it's crap.

[Craiger]

I've stated what i think its good for. And rather than going into all the things that I don't think its good for.. I simply said its useless. I don't think you would have given me the same response if I had said "yeah man.. its awsome.. go for it". If 5 parts really wants more info on what I think,,, he could ask for it.

[kevinw]

..........:shrug:

[SirRon]

I used to think the dopesheet was useless to for the same reason Craiger said. You can grab all the keys in the graph editor.

But I started using it because Keith Lango was using it :p Not just be cause he was using it but because I saw how he used it (http://www.keithlango.com/tutorials/old/popThru/popThru.html#firstPass) and realized how I can use it in my workflow. I use it in the blocking stage too like Brettzies (http://www.cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=2141849&postcount=7). And I do recommend reading his tutorial, it helped me a lot.

If he (or anyone else) showed how to use the trax editor to help save time, ease workflow, be more efficient then I'd take the time to learn the trax editor. If it doesn't work out for me then fine. But at least I tried and made an informed decision.

So try the dopesheet <sarcasm> come on...all the cool kids do it, don't you want to be cool?:deal:</sarcasm>

[Craiger]

i've tried it.. i dont like it.

besides,,, no one has actually said what you can do in there that you can't in the graph editor.

[kevinw]

Craiger...It's not about what the dopesheet can do that the graph editor can't! In fact, if I had to choose only one to work with I would pick the Graph editor. But, you can select, delete or move keys with either tool. It's simply preference for the workflow. The dopesheet has a column at the top which allows you to select every key on a given frame all at once. It also works well when offsetting joints on a 3rd or 4th pass. You get a very clear visual reference of which keys are on a given frame. (without being muttled by the curves)

You've made it very clear you don't like the dopesheet...But you have yet to explain why.. What is it that you dont like about it? What problems have you had? How did it set you back? These are the kinds of questions one should elaborate on when making a statement about... well, anything. That's how these discussions work. Opinions followed up with supporting statements...

So my point is...... I don't give two craps whether or not you use the dopesheet. If it's not for you then fine. but at least be able to back up your statement.. otherwise you sound ignorant (which I'm sure you're NOT an ignorant person :rolleyes: )



If he (or anyone else) showed how to use the trax editor to help save time, ease workflow, be more efficient then I'd take the time to learn the trax editor. If it doesn't work out for me then fine. But at least I tried and made an informed decision.


Well said!

[Craiger]

Alright.. here we go.


I have yet to find anything,,, (other than moving all keys in my scene at once) that you can do in the dope sheet that you cannot in the graph editor. (why work in one that only does half that the other does?) I come from a classical background and I do understand the value of a "dope sheet" in the classical sense. I have worked in both a pose to pose fasion of animation as well as a straight ahead. For me 2D animation lent itself to more of a pose to pose style, while 3D lent itself more to a straight ahead method. No need to really get into why i feel this way.

Having said that, when working in the graph editor i can see all my keys as i have layed them out, but i can also adjust the timing using tangents. I personally do not like the dope sheet because it doesn't show you much. It does not display the "transition" timing between two keys. The dope sheet is also strange to navigate through,,, If i want to select specific keys on selected attributes that are not near eachother in the hirerarchy,,, then i have to select one,, then scroll down to find the other one. This to me does not seem like a time effective way of selecting individual keyframes. It doesn't make sense to me to work in a blocking pass in one animation editor, then switch over to another for a second pass.

I don't like working in a pose to pose style. I prefer to see my overall timing with breakdowns, and overlap on a first pass. If I just lay everything down at one frame like the arm for instance,,, i will put in the overlap on the elbow. I find it mechanical and stale to pose everything, then offset them later. (i know you can do that in the dope sheet,,, but everyone seems to like it for throwing down poses all at once)

The only way to go back to a earlier version of your keys in the dope sheet is to undo, or open your scene again. Buffer curves are a must when animating, as well as the infinity tools. (especially in the first block pass)

I guess when it comes down to it, I like the visual representation that i can get with the graph editor because it suits my needs as an animator.


Just for the record... I've read that tutorial before...


:bounce:

[SirRon]

Yeah, I get it. The moment you said you work in straight ahead I understood why you don't use the dopesheet. Cool, thanks for sharing.

I prefer starting with pose to pose then doing the straight ahead. Probably leaning more on posing though. But that's my workflow.

Sorry if the pro-dopesheet guys put you on the defensive. People just work differently and value the tools they use.

Like the first line on my sig says, let's stop posting and start animating. :thumbsup:

[kevinw]

Well said. I think this is a much better way of helping out fellow animators who are questioning the importance of the dopesheet. Your reasons are certainly valid and not at all "ignorant":D Thanks for taking the time to clear that up.. I do have a question though and this may get way off topic and should maybe be addressed in a new thread but here goes.....

In working straight ahead, how do you handle changes in your animation that need to be made according to a director or supervising animator? Do you do some sort of blocking for an approval session or do you just cross you fingers and hope you get the go ahead. And if changes are made, how much do you typically have to delete and do over? Anyway just curious...respond if you feel preachy..

Thanks for the discussion Craiger. As the only animator for a very small studio, I'm starved for heated conversations on methods and practices. Now to take SirRon's advice... and get back to animating.:buttrock:

[Craiger]

Well,,, Its always a good idea to do a blocking pass. (especially if you're director wants changes often,, i like to be able to say,, well i did it like that but you told me to change it.) Basically i throw down my keys, breakdowns and overlap in one pass. (i work in linear to start) This allows me to show my supervisor everything that i want to do with my piece. It shows him not only the timing, but also the little things that really make a piece of animation. I don't really mess with any of the tangents in this first pass. If changes are needed,,, i don't find it to be a big deal at all... I've put all my keys in a specific place, so I know what they're doing and why they are there. I guess I'm just used to seeing the graph editor, and understand what the curves are doing. Sometimes retiming a piece is as easy as scaling keys (usually for television work) or simply pushing things into the future or past. If the changes are really big,,, then I don't think there is really anything you can do but remove a chunk and start over.

Hope that helps out.

Werd.

[andy_maxman]

sorry for the OT: but kevin, your sig is seriously making my head spin.....my 'look at' seems constrained to the sig.....:eek:

[kevinw]

Wow.. I had no idea it would have such an effect.

sorry man... May want to try and break connections and re-parent to the thread text.

[SirRon]

LOL Animator jokes. I think you guys need a break. ;)

[Chris Bacon]

I like dope sheets even though I mainly use cg.....it helps me keep a eye on what Ive go....

[fsanimate]

Its just a tool in a toolbox. Sometimes you use it sometimes you don't, I dont just use a hammer to build a house.

b

[kevinw]

LOL Animator jokes. I think you guys need a break. ;)

I'll break when I die....

or will I...
I hope I can animate in the afterlife....:love:

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