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INFINITE
03-24-2005, 07:42 PM
I have spent years and years pulling my hair out when using lightwaves bones and weightsmaps to try and deform realistic looking models!! anyone else out there agree? let alone setting it up for IK/FK etc

leigh
03-24-2005, 08:01 PM
Oh boy this thread is going to go downhill fast...

Shade01
03-24-2005, 08:05 PM
I have spent years and years pulling my hair out when using lightwaves bones and weightsmaps to try and deform realistic looking models!! anyone else out there agree? let alone setting it up for IK/FK etc

If this is the stage you are having problems at, then you will have problems in other packages too. Creating bones and weightmaps isn't that different from package to package. Some packages do a few things or have a few tools that make certain steps easier, but it sounds like you are running into trouble before you get that far.

INFINITE
03-24-2005, 08:15 PM
Ok, dont wanna start off a huge debate or arguement . . . plz I would love to know of any great examples where Lightwave has been used to pull off very realistic Human character deformations. I understand all the basic's of Lightwaves setups etc but I never seem to get great results that is what I am saying, just asking for abit of advice really. Low poly setups for game characters I have found easy but highpoly and realistic control is hard, I find anyway. . weight maps aarrgghh !!:scream:

Point me in the right direction and I will be quiet! :)

Kid-Mesh
03-24-2005, 08:30 PM
Im going to have to agree with Shade01 on this one, honestly perception is reality and the preception that rigging and animating in Lightwave is either hard or non intuitive or insert x issue is just B.S., there is a learning curve in all applications.

True enough, there maybe some downfalls or wanted features that you might see in other applications. And there is always going to be the grass is greener on the other side deal. But at the stage you having issues at which is "basic level" doesnt really have too much to do with Lightwave...it's just you until you getter familar and better with it in time.

Actually think about what your saying here, how hard is it to actually create skelegons in modeler? Or how hard is it to actually create bones directly in Layout? Have you even tried IKBoost?...

Ok how about this, how hard is it to open up property panels and setup IK if you know what your doing? seems like point and click to me, if you know what your doing? Where most people have issues usually seems to be with weightmapping and actually using their "IK" setups when their done. It's just a matter of understanding the subject, nothing a little light reading and experimentation couldnt and wont cure.:)

Trust me on this, if you cant rig in Lightwave, set up weightmaps and build IK chains which for the most part are your beginning foundations to it all, then dont go wasting your money on something else because your still going to have problems without that knowledge. I just cant see how Lightwave makes that difficult :shrug:

Between Jonny & Timothy who are the authors of some pretty good darn books on the subject, have actually laid to rest afaik that Rigging and Animating in Lightwave is a pain or the worst. They have actuall proven that to me at least that doing it in Lightwave is actually a kick a$$ process and fun at that.

I have Messiah Animate 5 and have used Motion Builder, I have also rigged in 3DSMAX 5 and Maya 5. Out of all of those Lightwave is a sight for sore eyes imho. It's the least technical of them all. Max was the worst (didnt use C.S. with it). Messiah Animate was ok but it was a little heavy on the technical side too. If I had the chance to do it over again based on what I know now about Lightwaves animation tools I would have spent my money that I used for Messiah on FPRIME :thumbsup:

Kid-Mesh
03-24-2005, 08:34 PM
... I understand all the basic's of Lightwaves setups etc but I never seem to get great results that is what I am saying, just asking for abit of advice really. Low poly setups for game characters I have found easy but highpoly and realistic control is hard.....

Just spend more time with the application, Just look at Newteks site or Spinquad. There is always some good animation located their using HighPoly stuff. Either your new to Lightwave and the community or the internet. Most of the animations I have see with Lightwave have been high poly....just keep practicing.

NeptuneImaging
03-24-2005, 08:39 PM
Yup...practice will help you a long way... :) Rigging in Lightwave is a snap now after playing with it...

yog
03-24-2005, 09:07 PM
For a single character I would have to say that LW is a major pain in the butt, and a lot more convoluted that most other apps out there. Two examples, weighting and joint morphs, both done in a completely different application to the rest of the rigging and test animation. Then you have the optional extras like springy bones and latices for controlling skin sliding, possible in LW, but you'll lose a lot of hair getting it set up. Then there is saving out custom built rigs, LW has it's new Rig format, but it doesn't let you save out controllers and expressions like most other apps do.

However, LW does score highly when it comes to rigging a lot of similar characters. The ability to cut body parts from one character and merge them onto another character, keeping weighting and endomorphs in tact is a stroke of genius.

adrencg
03-24-2005, 09:18 PM
igI have spent years and years pulling my hair out when using lightwaves bones and weightsmaps to try and deform realistic looking models!! anyone else out there agree? let alone setting it up for IK/FK etc

I find it easy to rig....my problem is with the IK solving itself. I'm not sure about other software(maybe some of you can clarify this), but LW's IK is twitchy. Sometimes foot jiggle is at an almost unusable level. Does Maya, C4D or XSI have IK that is a pain to get "wobble-free"?

Mike

INFINITE
03-24-2005, 09:24 PM
WOw! some good replies there guys, cheers for the info, maybe you guys are right. Abit more time and a few more 'years' practice I might get there. I have always hated rigging and animating to be honest. I have always seen it as Artist - Animater - Coder from a gam dev perspective anyway. You either have it or you dont. Rigging and animating has never interested me. Modelling - texturing - lighting has and always will do. . .


But I will defo go and buy Tim Albee's book ( and what ever else I can find ) because there seems to be evidence that LW aint so bad after all :)

would still like to seem some examples of realistic humans that use bones and weight maps etc. never have done. . . . .

richcz3
03-24-2005, 09:50 PM
Hey I am far from being a character animator but I can write that if you haven't heard of the Maestro plugin, you should. Its quite flexible and comes with biped, quadraped, and even wing rigs that can be modified to suit your characters. The control scheme also allows you to control morphs from one panel.
Do a search in this forum and you'll get a real good read on what it can do.

SplineGod
03-24-2005, 09:55 PM
I find rigging in LW to be pretty straightforward and fairly quick to do.
I would have to say that if you go about rigging in the wrong way (usually meaning workflow) its going to be tough. It also depends on how well you understand animation in general and what a good rig should be able to do as well as which tools in LW will help you to create that rig. How you need to animate and what the character needs to be able to do will drive how you rig. If you dont know animation very well then its better to work with an experienced animator who can give you feedback on your rig.

Rigging in LW is a bit different in some aspects. In LW bones are deformers so when you rest/activate them they work immediatly. This being the case its generally better to test deformations before determining what to do to improve the deformations such as adding additional hold bones, using weight maps, endomorphs etc. Because the bones are deformers I find that I generally dont need weight maps or only need very simple ones. Waiting until after adding and activating bones to add weight maps will save you a great deal of headache instead of trying to deal with bones and weight maps up front at the same time.

You also need to separate rigging into two separate aspects:
1. Animation
2. Deformation

The animation aspec has to do with a rig that is poseable, stable and stable between poses.
Deformations has to do with joints keeping their volume, muscle flexing, skin, fat etc.

The two arent really related. In many studios someone does the character animation and others do the technical animating which involves making sure that the deformations work with the motions applied by the character animator. This rig can be push onto other technical animators for other types of dynamics such as cloth. Rarely does one person do all that himself. In smaller studios you may have to wear multiple hats. Ive done all of these things in LW and as I said its generally easy to do if approached properly.

Rigging in any app generally isnt easy. Rigging is anything you do to make something animateable and that can be almost anything. :)

Anything you can do to keep things as simple as possible will help.

Chaz
03-25-2005, 04:55 AM
I find it easy to rig....my problem is with the IK solving itself. I'm not sure about other software(maybe some of you can clarify this), but LW's IK is twitchy. Sometimes foot jiggle is at an almost unusable level. Does Maya, C4D or XSI have IK that is a pain to get "wobble-free"?
Totally agree.

Maya and XSI's bones are most definitely "wobble-free." I really hope a forthcoming version of Lightwave adds IK handles. I like a lot of things about animation in Lightwave, but IK is something I'd rather do in Maya any day of the week. Rigging isn't necessarily easier, but it's a simple thing to get subtle, secondary motions with Maya and XSI.

Having said that, if you can't do a good rig in Lightwave, you won't be able to in any other app either.

SplineGod
03-25-2005, 05:02 AM
Its strange but I never get any strange twitching or wobbling in LW and as hard as I try I cant remember the last time I did.

toonafish
03-25-2005, 10:21 AM
Its strange but I never get any strange twitching or wobbling in LW and as hard as I try I cant remember the last time I did.

c'm on Larry...check out your own FireLizard rig on the free samples page....to be honest it's a terrible rig, the head shakes when you move the front foot because you didn't end the IK chain and if you do, the neck starts twitching. The right leg is all screwed up just as the feet.

paragonent
03-25-2005, 11:54 AM
hi guys?! what's all about people that say this things about LW rigging capabilities?! i really don't understand.

i'm a newbie in character animation and honestly...after i read a lot of tutorials and watched video tuts....i can't ask for anything more from LW bone and rigging tools.

i saw a lot of animations done by professionals in LW and they look just great!!!

there isn't just one rig that you learn and use it for everything....like a lot of people do. a rig is based on the model, the character, what it is, what it does, how it feels...and you can do anything in LW if you really understand animation and deformations and you really understand how the tools in a package works.(people like albee, splinegod, kretin and many more).

i's very easy in LW to make a rig for a cartoon character and for realistic characters....you can check maestro...very nice tool(not only for rigging but for automating things for animation)....but....there are some that can pull a rig, made with LW tools and to work perfect.

i was one that looked in all the packages because i thought LW it's not good for character animation and i was stuned by XSI etc. but as i learned more about LW...now i stick to LW.

i think that in the time that i would checked or start and learn another package....i can learn more LW. hihihi

i stick to my oppinion...it's not the software that is bad...it's us who don't know how the software works.

good luck to all

Emmanuel
03-25-2005, 12:06 PM
I think thats LW isn't the worst rigging software out there...Photoshop or Mozilla a far, far worse !

SpikeWorx
03-25-2005, 01:32 PM
I think thats LW isn't the worst rigging software out there...Photoshop or Mozilla a far, far worse !
Photoshop has fantastic character setup tools.
You can choose between different fonts, and you can set them up at will.
Lacks a bit in the animation department so you have to use image Ready or After Effects for that :D ;)

INFINITE
03-25-2005, 01:41 PM
I think maybe let the thread die quietly, maybe lightwave aint so bad after all:) I NEED MORE PATIENTS!! MUST STUDY TUTORIALS!!:eek:

coremi
03-25-2005, 03:59 PM
i think u should get a book or some video tutorials, cause online tutorials are very very good if u have a very good foundation in caracter animation, otherwise tutorials are really confusing.

cg_matt
03-25-2005, 04:03 PM
No, I find Microsoft Word much worse! ;)

NeptuneImaging
03-25-2005, 07:07 PM
Yeah, when I started learning how to rig, I turned to Digiwonk.com and I am so great now with rigging, it is never a dull moment. As larry mentioned about LW bones being deformers in themselves, you can bend a steel door in lightwave, just by using bones....

And also by looking at other rigs, regardless of software, you can learn how their rigs work, well at least setup...

I was looking at an XSI rig for Alyx from half life, and now I rig like that for any human character. And as Larry told me once, rigging is also part of modeling :)

Have fun with rigging too Infinite... :)

SplineGod
03-25-2005, 07:13 PM
I was looking at an XSI rig for Alyx from half life, and now I rig like that for any human character. And as Larry told me once, rigging is also part of modeling :)

Have fun with rigging too Infinite... :)

or that modeling was part of rigging. ;)
Actually texturing, endomorphs, displacements, etc can also be a part of rigging :)

telamon
03-25-2005, 10:06 PM
I am not sure that there is one rig to rule them all.

Every character is to be rigged independently depending on what you want to do with it. Sometimes I have background characters for which I do nothing but setting up bones and move them. There are many ways and many goals for rigging a character. From very simple to very complicated and this is not specific to LW.

see this one - one of the most astonishing IMHO http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=91987

For complex characters or those characters that you want smooth and accurate deformation, it is quite difficult to set up bones in layout, check deformation there, go in modeler for joint morph, click 100 times and type 100 mistakes for an expression and so on and so far. With patience we can get realistic results.

We can do almost everything in rigging.... Animating the objects later is quite bothering with LW because of the crappy openGL performances.

I do not know the other packages. I cannot state on how they are better.

LaMereHic
03-26-2005, 12:04 AM
i am a newbe in animarion but i think lightwave as a pocket full of resouces.
just keep on trying and everything gets clearer time after time

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 01:09 AM
Ive yet to see a universal rig. Theres various setups that work best in certain conditions and some can get quite complex. Despite the various ways to rig theres always the same underlying requirements that a rig must adhere to such as Poseability, Stability while being posed, Stability in between poses and so on. These are things that have to do more with animating then anything else.

Next you have deformability. Things like good joint deformations, skin, fat and muscle effects come into play. There are many tools available such as bones, muscle bones, dynamics, endomorphs, displacements, textures, expressions, motion modifiers, weight maps and so on that can all be used together to not only make sure the character deforms properly but reacts properly as well. This can include skin jiggling, cloth and so on.

Many times the reason things slow down in Layout is due to the fact the bones in LW are deformers already. When you REST bones EVERY bone in layout effects EVERY vertex (unless use faster bones is selected which limits each vertex to only being affected by the 4 closest bones). This is why a bones position, length and orientation at the time you REST the bone is important. The more vertices you have the slower it will be. This is why using standin characters can be important and/or reducing the subpatch level while animating.

One of the issues of using bones to drive muscles is that the thing you want to achieve is the look of skin sliding over muscle and bone. Since bones only hold geometry and pull it along its not always possible to get the effect of muscles flexing under skin which slides over it. Theres other things that can be done to do that though. As rigs get more complex its important to have workflow that allows animating to be separated from deforming since the two arent really related. Frustration occurs when both are mixed without the proper setup that anticipates those slowdowns. :)

ThE_JacO
03-26-2005, 01:17 AM
One of the issues of using bones to drive muscles is that the thing you want to achieve is the look of skin sliding over muscle and bone. Since bones only hold geometry and pull it along its not always possible to get the effect of muscles flexing under skin which slides over it. Theres other things that can be done to do that though.

could you write down some examples about how you would do that please?
as someone who works on muscle systems day in and day out for a living I'd be very interested to find out it's doable out of the box in a sub2k app.

or is this going to be nonchalantly dodged like the "wobbling bones in one of your rigs" post?

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 01:28 AM
or is this going to be nonchalantly dodged like the "wobbling bones in one of your rigs" post?

No,I tend to nonchalantly dodge things when Im told that Im going to nonchalantly dodge them :)

ThE_JacO
03-26-2005, 01:33 AM
No,I tend to nonchalantly dodge things when Im told that Im going to nonchalantly dodge them :)

I regret writing that line now, I'm sure your extensive experience with several muscle systems, and your extensive knowledge of the codebase needed for one, would have enlightened us all.
And most important, just for once, it would have looked like you maybe knew something of the stuff you were posting about.

I'll let you return to your regular programs now, my (sincere) apologies to the other participants for this inadequate intrusion.

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 01:41 AM
This is the old CGTalk attitude we all love and remember. Its nice to deal with people who feel that information is something owed to them simply because they demand it. :shrug:

Jefe
03-26-2005, 02:33 AM
Whats up fellow Lightwavers. I have run into a "speedbump", and I was hoping someone could help me out. On that note, I say speedbump, because Ive NEVER been denied a rig in Lightwave. There is an answer to everything, and for years it has not failed me. Sometimes it takes a day or two (definitly not years, as I learned weighting, boning and IK in weeks).

Here's the "speedbump". I am currently rigging this model of an R/C car for an animation I am doing for a client. I have already pretty much set-up the entire rig, with only one feature of functionality missing. For each wheel and suspension assembly I have set up an Ik system consisting of 2 IK Chains, one for the steering mechanism, and one for the suspension action.

The shocks have a morph on them to compress, and when the A-arm of the R/C car rotates up to compromise terrain etc, the shocks being attached need to stay attached at the endpoints (like how any suspension works). So I applied an expression for the shock to follow the Bank rotation of the A-arm, and to my guestimated horror, the expression will only follow the bank rotation on a manually set keyframe. In other words, IK on; expression no work. If I turn the IK off for the A-arm and keyframe it manually, the expression on the shock works, as it morphs when the A-arm rotates.


So the general question is; "How do I get an expression to work with a channel that is on IK?"

I guess I can just animate the shocks indivdually with the morph mixer sliders, but it would be cool to not have to worry about animating an object that should obviously be animated through script!

I have thought about breaking the shock into 2 parts and using some bones, but that sounds avoidable. But I guess I could do that, could I not? One bone for each half of the shock and targeting each other? I have also already applied the expression to follow the Y axis for the goal object controlling the suspension, and I tried an expression to follow the chassis movement. These both worked, but both set ups require me to compensate for the position of the chassis and suspension goal object in relation to each other.

In other words, if the car lands after a jump, the chassis will move towards the ground (obviously) compressing the shocks. So what if there is a rock or slight undulation under one of the tires? I need to be able to move that suspension goal object to compensate for this. So if the expression is set to follow one or the other, the result is the shock will be out of place.


Iv'e included a pic of the front right rig for reference. Thanks for any help or suggestions anyone may have.
http://www.clifton3d.com/buggy_rig.jpg


Geffe

T4D
03-26-2005, 02:40 AM
Lw rigging it great for Cartoon characters fast flexable and easy to animate
you can get good Rigs in LW but they have to be simple and the more complex you get the less animator friendly the rig becomes...:sad:

but it's missing alot of rigging tools that are needed for high end characters
I just took my kids to see Robots and WOW the rigging in that movie was just amazing everything was mechanical but still moved like a toon

Metal characters strenching and bending for me it was more enjoyable to watch then manny's ass in Iceage
Robots just could not be done in LW without a hell of alot of endo's and expression = interface slowdown, and why do it when you can do it so easy in XSI and i'm sure Maya.
XSI has constrant deformation along path or surface something that was used alot in Robots

in other package rigging isn't apart of modeling and it shouldn't be apart of modeling,

Modeling is part of animation. and rigging's just the art of attaching modeling operaters to animation controls, you could say bones are just a modeling operator,
but in LW you have a huge wall between modeling operators and animation operators this walls stops alot of cool things in rigging.


SplineGod if you don't see wobbling bones then your not animating in Lightwave

you must be only rigging and not testing your rigs, because even with prebent joints, rotation limits etc ( i've read Jonny's and Tim's books ) you get the odd wobble ( not much but it's there ) sometimes it's fixed by just posing you character correctly
exsample- arms get a wobble make sure your shoulder is in the right position.

wobble is there no matter what you do, saying
Its strange but I never get any strange twitching or wobbling in LW and as hard as I try I cant remember the last time I did.
is kind of worrying Splinegod :curious: .



Since bones only hold geometry and pull it along its not always possible to get the effect of muscles flexing under skin which slides over it. Theres other things that can be done to do that though.


i would love to see your " Workaround " but the sad thing is in another packages you CAN have muscles flexing under skin which slides over bones & it's pretty easy too.

again Lightwave good rigs for simple toons to mid level characters
Highend stuff NO lightwave just isn't there yet..

M.E.L.
03-26-2005, 03:29 AM
As rigs get more complex its important to have workflow that allows animating to be separated from deforming since the two arent really related.

Uhhh...no offense here (well, maybe) but you don't work with many animators closely do you? The idea behind a complex rig is to encompass the entire control structure, deformations process and any advanced means into a very streamlined approach. Handing a rig to an animator, saying animate and then handing it back to them saying "ok, now add your deformations ontop" is just ridiculous.

Point of animating a rigged character is to make it move and DEFORM...how the hell are these two things NOT related? I swing my arm, my muscles move and deform the skin...Sorry man but that's a serious crock of $#!+

just my 2 cents though...love to see some professional examples of this workflow in action though!

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 03:41 AM
SplineGod if you don't see wobbling bones then your not animating in Lightwave

you must be only rigging and not testing your rigs, because even with prebent joints, rotation limits etc ( i've read Jonny's and Tim's books ) you get the odd wobble ( not much but it's there ) sometimes it's fixed by just posing you character correctly
exsample- arms get a wobble make sure your shoulder is in the right position.

wobble is there no matter what you do, saying

is kind of worrying Splinegod :curious: .

i would love to see your " Workaround " but the sad thing is in another packages you CAN have muscles flexing under skin which slides over bones & it's pretty easy too.

again Lightwave good rigs for simple toons to mid level characters
Highend stuff NO lightwave just isn't there yet..

Peter do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Youre saying that just because YOU have wobbly bones in rigs and I dont that somehow IM wrong? I know quite a few ppl who rig without those issues. What worries me is that you make claims based on your level of knowledge. Your claims about whether LW is capable of high end character work is also not correct. :rolleyes:

leigh
03-26-2005, 03:54 AM
Knock it off please guys.

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 04:04 AM
Shawn,
Ive worked with animators for years including doing it myself.
Ive seen and experienced enough to know that nobody uses the exact same pipeline
from studio to studio. It totally depends on the pipeline where you work. Ive worked on projects where animators animate and pass the rigs onto Technical animators who transfer the animation to more complex rigs where they tweak the deformations. Ive also seen those rigs moved onto others who add cloth or other dynamics. In the meantime the actual character animator moves onto other things. Maybe where you work the character animator also handles animation or tweaking of deformations. Ive seen both situations and situations in between.

I tend to use proxy characters to speed up the animation process and on occasion switch to a mode where I can check deformations. Much of the time dealing with deformations at the same time that Im concentrating on animating only slow things down a great deal. I find it easier to more or less separate the character animating aspect from the technical aspect of insuring deformations are correct. Animation and deformation arent the same thing. I know quite a few others who do the same thing. The majority of animators I know dont have a clue how to deal with complex deformations, muscle systems, cloth etc...they just animate. :shrug:

T4D
03-26-2005, 05:26 AM
Peter do you know how ridiculous that sounds? Youre saying that just because YOU have wobbly bones in rigs and I dont that somehow IM wrong? I know quite a few ppl who rig without those issues. What worries me is that you make claims based on your level of knowledge. Your claims about whether LW is capable of high end character work is also not correct.

:D ( Monty Python voices please )
Oh one who has a much greater level of knowledge then I :bowdown:

Can you throw down a scrap from your mighty Rigging workbench using your most Golden & knowledgeable rigging skills to guide us poor helpless Lightwaver's in are quest to the holygrail.

The Golden Unwobbling Rig

We after many years of rigging and animation, still have yet to achieve the Golden Unwobbling Rig and we have tested many rigs from CGtalk & other LW sites and LW 8 content cd ( many great artists & myself have created Rigs for that most holy LW 8 content CD ) tho we have still Yet to see the most powerful exsample of rigging done in Lightwave.
( Please forgive me mighty one But why didn't a god such as yourself have a rig on that Lw 8 content cd to show us your golden rigging powers when you had the chance ?)

we sit in the darkness waiting..... for a someone to show us the true power of the force in are hands and show us the mighty light of your truly amazing rigging skills,:bowdown:

Please splinegod of rigging :bowdown:
Please give us a exsamaple of the Golden Unwobbling Rig in Lightwave. :bowdown:

so we may test it and see for are selfs the Golden Unwobbling Rig in action and wonder at it's creator who is truely a Lightwave God and Master of the IK AND IKBooster .:bowdown:

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 05:45 AM
Peter,
Is it really necessary to take what was a perfectly constructive discussion down a few notches? Can you please at least try and ACT professional? I tend to think most ppl come to these forums for help and support rather then listen to negative rants. I would also suggest rereading the part before you make a post entitled: "Before posting, please review the following".

1. Be courteous and polite. Show respect to the opinions and feelings of others. Use of the forums is a privilege, not a right.
2. Engage your brain before your mouth. You are responsible for your own words and any harm they may cause.
3. Don't dilute the forums with irrelevant and unnecessary fluff. CGTalk is a professional, moderated forum. It's a place to talk about all things related to computer graphics.
4. Critiques and responses to images are to be constructive and related to improving the quality of the artwork.

Please pay attention closely to the words respect, professional, unnecessary fluff, engage brain before mouth and so forth... :thumbsup:

Remi
03-26-2005, 05:56 AM
Personally I found riggin in LW limiting...I can also say I found it faster in some cases though. Painting weights and such is faster but I like the control I have in Maya with the weights...just takes forever to paint...but I like the controls Maya gives you...Aim, Point, Orient constraints and pole vectors are quite nice. Of course there are ways to set things similar to these in LW...it just takes a bit more work. I have to agree with T4D though...I think it's alot more useful when it comes to cartoony characters...when rigging realistic chars...the expressions need and the controls needed just bring LW to a hault. I also agree with SplineGod though...I've made rigs that don't have a wobble in LW...and if you are getting a wobble...you did something wrong. Now...if we could bring the maturity level up a bit maybe we could make this a constructive thread instead of destructive one. At least that's my hope.:shrug:

T4D
03-26-2005, 06:14 AM
. I also agree with SplineGod though...I've made rigs that don't have a wobble in LW...and if you are getting a wobble...you did something wrong. Now...

yeah I have too but most of the time I personally feel it's due to the character not having exteme poses that pushed the IK, sure lots of character animation but without exteme poses helps avoid seeing Ik problems and again if I get the wobbles it's when i havn't posed the hips or shoulders correctly once they in position everything works fine.



Larry -

I was thinking that was piss funny :D .

but you again avoided the points and questions of mine and others so well Larry, very cool :cool:

anyway I'll leave this thread no need to post anything more here,
SO I'll leave it to you Larry, your the man :thumbsup:.

my first post was the only One i really put some brain time on,
the second was me working on Easter Saturday & waiting for a LW OpenGL preview
Me.... professional NO, (that's such a boring thing to call an Artist :arteest: )
I'm a Character Animation Freak, I get more work that way :buttrock:



CGtalk - Please leave my post & don't ban me. it needed to be said.:bowdown:

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 06:16 AM
geffe,
Theres a few things you can do such as have the expression look at the steering wheel rather then an item with IK controlling it.
You can also use the motion modifier expressions because they do see IK.
You can also use follower to have one channel follow another because follower also sees IK.
You could also look at using cyclist to control the animation of the linkage using the steering wheel as the control item. Since it wouldnt use IK the expression should read it.
I would think one of these suggestions should work. :)

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 06:29 AM
I was thinking that was piss funny :D .

but you again avoided the points and questions of mine and others so well Larry, very cool

No Peter, theres a difference between avoiding and ignoring. I dont mind helping people who act civil/professional. Ive posted a lot of stuff on CGTalk attempting to help people. If someone helps me Im grateful that someone took the time to be helpful. I dont come here expecting or demanding help and I certainly dont get pissy if someone chooses not to help. That is just common sense. I dont feel much of an inclination to share with people who are rude, uncivil, unprofessional, disrespectful or E, all of the above.
When I respond to a question I have to determine if I can answer it in a few sentences. I dont feel obligated to post tutorials or give away information that I may have included on CDs that someone paid for. :shrug:

Remi
03-26-2005, 06:54 AM
yeah I have too but most of the time I personally feel it's due to the character not having exteme poses that pushed the IK, sure lots of character animation but without exteme poses helps avoid seeing Ik problems and again if I get the wobbles it's when i havn't posed the hips or shoulders correctly once they in position everything works fine.

I've used some really piss poor rigs and have made some very extreme poses with them and still haven't gotten this "wobble effect". Perhaps i'm misunderstanding you. Also, it's very rarely I use Ik on arms...is this where you're getting the wobble? I only use Ik on arms if the character is going to interact with something in a scene (say a wall or a door opening), but when that happens...I use fk right up until that happens and then I try to find a way to either cut or to switch to another rig that has ik arms and pose him/her/it exactly the same at said frame...and then when the that part of the anim is complete I again either cut or switch to another rig that has fk and pose him/her/it exactly the same at said frame.

ThirdEye
03-26-2005, 09:07 AM
aaaaaah the good old Lw forum flames! Go ahead guys, it starts to be entertaining! :D

imashination
03-26-2005, 09:49 AM
This is the old CGTalk attitude we all love and remember. Its nice to deal with people who feel that information is something owed to them simply because they demand it. :shrug:

So, kinda like "I'm not telling, nya nya"

A skeptical person might suggest you're talking out of your arse, good job there's none of them round here eh? ;)

Regarding the vechicle suspension, you can try pulling apart this scene file if you like, grab the c4d demo and you should be able to view it all

http://www.3dfluff.com/files/susprig.c4d

Double click on the black and white node Icon on the top right, next to the helix object. I can't see any reason why this wouldn't transfer over into lw. Just make sure you get the order/priority of the expression/nodes correct otherwise it will not move at all, or lag a frame behind. Let me know if there's anything that needs explaining.

Kid-Mesh
03-26-2005, 10:30 AM
aaaaaah the good old Lw forum flames! Go ahead guys, it starts to be entertaining! :D

Better them bash each other on a tolerable level than bash Lightwave :scream:. I have the highest level of respect for you guy's and its funny to see this some times amongst the LW forum's elite. Some time a little fire breaths life back into the body. But hey just remember that some people who silently read these post are looking for bread crumbs too...so drop a little for the small guys in between bantering.

telamon
03-26-2005, 12:59 PM
The fact is that you can create bones in LW, you can link deformation corrections to them, you can animate a bone with respect to any other bone position and rotation without clicking on it.

The only problems in LW IMHO are :
-- the interface for expressions, cyclist, follower... and any other motion modifiers are not simple to use. Moreover, there are differences in ways of typing expressions whether you use the motion modifier or the channel modifier. Finally, these modifiers are very poorly documented.
-- the separation between modeler and layout makes very tedious the corrections at the joints. I used to utilise Minimo and an editFX baking but these tools, however useful they may prove are not effective enough to be used on a regular basis.


Apart from these matters, I am really fed up with these flame wars. They are useless.

uncommongrafx
03-26-2005, 01:52 PM
I'm perplexed. And annoyed.

Gefe asked a question I even wanted an answer to. 9 Posts went by, most directed at Larry. The only other post on target was imashination; yet, even he took a swipe at him for answering the question(?).

As an owner of both your tools, I find it amazing of you, Thomas, to say you've sold something that 'can't get it done'. And now, on re-collect I do recall twitching that I couldn't get rid of... Had to go back to ASC4 for that project.

As an efficiency expert (read: lazy) I own most of the auto-rigging tools along with Larry's materials. (The above mentioned job paid for Larry's courses) I don't get twitching with the new maestro rig. That's the first thing I look for in a rig. My simple tests say a twitch is the result of over-reach&correction behaviour in the methodology and combination of IK and expressions meant to control. This type of twitch CAN'T be fixed without augmenting the IK &/or expressions.

Geffe, in your situation, I would immediately apply a Relativity expression, as it CAN read through the mess of math that LightWave can't. Of course, I own Relativity. ;) Just for moments like this.

And it's not 'CGTalk as always'; it's a few folks having a bone to pick with one guy. And it's funny, too, as those who pick the bone rarely offer the level of help they complain of not getting from him...

Chewey
03-26-2005, 02:10 PM
aaaaaah the good old Lw forum flames! Go ahead guys, it starts to be entertaining! :D

Good job. Even more entertaining when the hired "help" starts pouring gasoline on the flames.

:sad:

ThirdEye
03-26-2005, 02:35 PM
sdrammatGood job. Even more entertaining when the hired "help" starts pouring gasoline on the flames.

:sad:

come on i was trying to get the tension down, can't you realize that?

T4D
03-26-2005, 03:18 PM
Cool this is getting exciting :D

Its strange but I never get any strange twitching or wobbling in LW and as hard as I try I cant remember the last time I did.

Now let me repeat this is the main reason i started this
Larry used the word NEVER and then proposed that if you do get a wobble you don't know what your doing.

I find this statement to be complete bull, everyone who has defend larry for some reason still seem to know or have seen Ik wobble at some point unlike Larry.
and a hell of alot of people find rigging in Lightwave hard due to this wobble when setting up IK chains. I've been rigging and animating for many a year & I've read Tim's and Jonny's books and both attack the problem of Ik wobble, Larry just said it's not there.

then Larry didn't give any ideas on how to avoid the problem,...even tho a user found wobble on one of Larry own demo chains. for Larry Lightwave is a perfect and nothing is wrong with his chosen tool & he has his reason for this ...

Now the things I do to avoid IK problems

Prebend your Ik joints when you create them in the direction you want them to bend
draw you bones/skelegons in one plain eg make 2D ik chains ( when you can )
only have one channel per bone controled by IK, setup small bones inbetween if you need Ik to control more then one channel
set rotation limits eg- for a leg put a rotation limit on the lower leg
set your ik strengh on the target to 100 or even more
keep ik chains simple don't have long Ik chains for a solid animation rig
if you have a long Ik chain have afew bones in there without IK so you can manally key them to control the chain
check your poses if you have problem with a leg pose check your hip position if you have a problem with your Ik arms check you shoulder position
These tips are in my free video tutorials for my plugins and are in Tim's and Jonny's book's
if your into Lightwave rigging Buy one or even both books they great stuff.:thumbsup:

the IK in Lightwave is very useful and is a great animation tool
But all users ( except Larry ) have to admit LW's IK isn't the best and could be made easier , better to use and have more options.

Now anyone who brought my plugins and have found a problem should have emailed me
I'm happy to help, even to the point of Me rigging the character myself to solve the problem.
most of the time it's skelegon positions in modeler that become the problem.

IK wobble is not a IK arms issue why should it be ?? if an animator wants to uses IK arms he should be able to, should he be made to uses FK arms because IK arms don't work very well in LW ?? ,

I personal prefer FK arms myself and uses IK/FK blending when needed. ( again I have a free video tutorials for all Lw users on this on my site ) I find FK arms you have better elbow motion control and better control of folding of the arms, A big plus in my mind.

Sorry I did start the flame war but the word Never really gets me fired up :twisted:

CB_3D
03-26-2005, 03:58 PM
ugly thread,and very unproductive.

paragonent
03-26-2005, 04:05 PM
hi guys!

first...if someone knows c4d he should get the hack out in the c4d section...my oppinion.

second...with all the respect guys for your work and background......if you're so tired with LW i have some links you should check out:

www.softimage.com
www.alias.com
www.discreet.com
www.sidefx.com

there are free to view.

and many more...you can search for other animation packages in google...uh!!! google has a very stable IK ^_^

good luck guys...and happy animating

coremi
03-26-2005, 04:25 PM
why do u want to take away the pleasure to bash Lightwave from time to time, you are really insensitive :D

ThE_JacO
03-26-2005, 04:40 PM
hi guys!

first...if someone knows c4d he should get the hack out in the c4d section...my oppinion.

second...with all the respect guys for your work and background......if you're so tired with LW i have some links you should check out:

www.softimage.com (http://www.softimage.com)
www.alias.com (http://www.alias.com)
www.discreet.com (http://www.discreet.com)
www.sidefx.com (http://www.sidefx.com)

there are free to view.

and many more...you can search for other animation packages in google...uh!!! google has a very stable IK ^_^

good luck guys...and happy animating

did it dawn on anybody that the thread was doing relatively little app bashing? I'd say the fulcrum after the initial post became pointing out that some people choose to IGNORE problems and try to hammer into everybody else's heads that such problems do not exist, even when they blatantly appear in examples submitted to public consumption by the very same individuals.

how good do you think will this kind of complacency be for the future development of LW?

uncommongrafx
03-26-2005, 04:52 PM
I have no complaints with your tools, Thomas. I've found them useful and still do. What causes me to react is seeing the 'pros' come out, not offer assistance yet try to drive out what little help is given through thinly veiled marketeering.

For example, you've made it clear as to what app is your favorite for this task and why. You've gone so far as to offer equivalents to these things, as well. This is to be commended. But the bickering toward being right about how 'crappy' LW is for this task belies your true intention, I suspect.

I so tire of the "buy 'this better' piece of software" answer and rebuttal. Some users just never hit the problems others do. Does that make their useage wrong and anothers absolutely right? I think not. And vice versa.

The way it was phrased, "should never", is exactly what you are saying, too. Right? You guys agree on the outcome, just not the method. No reason for these rigging topics to go so far astray.

uncommongrafx
03-26-2005, 04:58 PM
Thanks for the example.

IKB was added to avoid exactly this complacency, it dawned on me. It ain't perfect, I believe is what everyone would say.

You guys are funny in your backhanded abilities. :banghead:

did it dawn on anybody that the thread was doing relatively little app bashing? I'd say the fulcrum after the initial post became pointing out that some people choose to IGNORE problems and try to hammer into everybody else's heads that such problems do not exist, even when they blatantly appear in examples submitted to public consumption by the very same individuals.

how good do you think will this kind of complacency be for the future development of LW?

imashination
03-26-2005, 05:12 PM
hi guys!

first...if someone knows c4d he should get the hack out in the c4d section...my oppinion.

Can you rephrase that? I can't work out if you're trying to insult me or offer a compliment.

My little jab at Larry was that he constantly tells everyone they should help whenever they can (and rightly so) but then it seems he refuses to tell someone the answer because it would mean confirming there is a problem with the software he uses.

When a dozen people watch a wheel fall off your car, you look silly if you try to convince them all they just imagined the problem.

coremi
03-26-2005, 05:18 PM
ThE_JacO

i think this is the 5th time in the last 6 weeks when we hear how great XSI and C4D is, i think it is time to stop this.

for everyone else
I think if u have something to help the lightwave community you're welcome, if u come just to make us feel s**t cause we bought Lightwave and don't have the finacial posibility to buy some other unbeliveble and amazing stuff, sucks, people come around to find good valuable things about lightwave, CGTALK also have other software suport, please go there and don't come around no more. XSI has it's own place, go tell them how happy and fullfilled your life is with your new toy, leave us be.

Splinegod is the most helpful person around, haven't seen other INSTRUCTOR helping so much in forums, you want their info, get their books or videos. So let him do his job, for free and try to support also his paid lessons, so he will make more and will get more information for our jobs.

thank you very much.

imashination, are u the new C4D evangelist around here ? we had one before, thanx god he stopped. thanx for telling us how great and marvelous piece of software C4D is, we really apreaciated, but if u don't want to help us with lightwave please make your comments in a General Area, not a lightwave specific area. Thank you very much.

ThE_JacO
03-26-2005, 05:25 PM
ThE_JacO

i think this is the 5th time in the last 6 weeks when we hear how great XSI and C4D is, i think it is time to stop this.


bear with me, I may have missed some posts.
but mash only answered to a request for a car suspension rigging saying "this sadly is for C4D but I'm sure you can emulate it, so have a look at it", which in my books is, if nothing else, saying that he has no doubts LW can compare to C4D in that specific area.

personally I never mentioned XSI, Maya or HDN neither put upfront any comparisons.
if anything I said I would have been surprised to see ANY app providing a reiable solution for a muscle system out of the box, Larry in a previous post said there are other solutions for that, and being it pretty obvious that he couldn't code his way out of a box of kellog's corn flakes I ask what those would be since they would have to be based on SW tools only.

actually it seems to me like Mash and Thomas both provided insights in rigging or solving problems instead of just babbling about the philosophy of it.

let's not try to make everybody look like they are pimping apps that weren't even mentioned please :)

coremi
03-26-2005, 05:32 PM
only the first line was adress to you, in the last 2 month after 8.2 upgrade 90% of discution about how to do something in LIGHTWAVE 3D ends up by showing, from some people, a much better and easier way to do it in other software, mostly examples come from XSI and C4D. it's nothing wrong with this softwares, BUT this is a specific LIGHTWAVE area, not a general area and i'm rerally pissed to see how we can do something in C4D and people strat to fight and we never get to see how is done in Lightwave. Maybe C4D and XSI are the best software in the entire UNIVERSE, but many of, as stupid as we can be, right now, can afford only Lightwave. So u need Lightwave specific solution for our problems.

ThE_JacO
03-26-2005, 05:35 PM
only the first line was adress to you

fair enough, my apologies for addressing you directly then.
it's just that as much as people are tired of hijacks (and I do understand what you're saying and can be sympathetic), some other people have had it with self proclaimed gurus who call on experience and knowledge they DO NOT have to belittle other people whose opinions they don't share.

titaniumdave
03-26-2005, 05:36 PM
only the first line was adress to you, in the last 2 month after 8.2 upgrade 90% of discution about how to do something in LIGHTWAVE 3D ends up by showing, from some people, a much better and easier way to do it in other software, mostly examples come from XSI and C4D. it's nothing wrong with this softwares, BUT this is a specific LIGHTWAVE area, not a general area and i'm rerally pissed to see how we can do something in C4D and people strat to fight and we never get to see how is done in Lightwave. Maybe C4D and XSI are the best software in the entire UNIVERSE, but many of, as stupid as we can be, right now, can afford only Lightwave. So u need Lightwave specific solution for our problems.

Maybe no one can figure out how to do it right in lw. Downloading a demo of another software and learning from someone else thats done what you want will give you the foundation to figure it out in lw.

can afford only Lightwave.

Foundation is only 495. Sure you don't get shag lite but how much grass do you need to make?

coremi
03-26-2005, 05:39 PM
i come from EAST EUROPE, lightwave was a very huge investment for me, i think 10 times before i buy one book. XSI Foundation is around 650 EURO include TAX, and i work 6 month for that money, think again, not everyone lives in the USA.

titaniumdave
03-26-2005, 05:43 PM
i come from EAST EUROPE, lightwave was a very huge investment for me, i think 10 times before i buy one book. XSI Foundation is around 650 EURO include TAX, and i work 6 month for that money, think again, not everyone lives in the USA.

http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/price/price_e.html

So tell me how 1295 euro is less than 650?

retinajoy
03-26-2005, 05:46 PM
Sure you don't get shag lite but how much grass do you need to make?

Wow. 3 posts from you in the Lightwave forum. One dissing LW compared to a modelling app in another thread, and now promoting another app in this one. I'm all for constructive disagreements. Why taking part now in the LW forum with only negative posts?

titaniumdave
03-26-2005, 05:48 PM
Wow. 3 posts from you in the Lightwave forum. One dissing LW compared to a modelling app in another thread, and now promoting another app in this one. I'm all for constructive disagreements. Why taking part now in the LW forum with only negative posts?

Did I promote another app? Nope, I simply pointed out a flaw in a persons thinking.

richcz3
03-26-2005, 05:48 PM
With all the jabs going on, someone actually listed a series of solutions to rigging problems and it looks like those will quietly sink beneath the waves unnoticed. Thanks Peter (T4D) for taking the time to list rigging solutions between the salvos. :thumbsup:

Can this be more about solutions and less about the personalities on this forum
Thanks

retinajoy
03-26-2005, 05:52 PM
With all the jabs going on, someone actually listed a series of solutions to rigging problems and it looks like those will quietly sink beneath the waves unnoticed. Thanks Peter (T4D) for taking the time to list rigging solutions between the salvos. :thumbsup:

Can this be more about solutions and less about the personalities on this forum
Thanks

Sorry for adding to the mayhem. Thanks T4D. To be fair to Larry, he too has been helpful to many across the years in various forums. Just a shame this thread has turned sour.

Better to create art than do bitching. I'm out.

coremi
03-26-2005, 05:52 PM
ThE_JacO "some other people have had it with self proclaimed gurus who call on experience and knowledge they DO NOT have to belittle other people whose opinions they don't share"

BUT, in Lightwave community forums there are not many people as good as Splinegod, so if he decides that he is tired of all the atacks he will not come around, and i think is a great loss.

About C4D, just check their website, the XL version is 2000 EURO and lightwave is 1300 EURO and the Studio (include Bodypaint, NET Render (unlimited clients license), Dynamics, Sketch and Toon) version is 3250 EURO (4300 USD)

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 05:56 PM
Peter,
You seem to feel the need to defend your position at someone or something elses expense.
I notice that most others seem to be able to make their point without doing so. You are also a master at putting words in peoples mouths that they never said.
First:
You said that someone downloaded a rig and had it wobble, so what? Most of the rigs I make available are demonstrating specific things such as skelegon placement, simple IK setup etc.
You also never said anything about LONG IK chains. How many characters have long IK chains?
Long IK chains can be made to behave but with the standard IK its typically time consuming to set up. In that case I use IKBoost which works great for that. Part of rigging is knowing which tools to use and when to use them as opposed to avoiding them simply because you dont know how to use them.
During the rigging process if I see something misbehaving, I fix it. If I see something wobble, I fix it. That goes for anything. In the end I make sure that a FINISHED rig doesnt have any of those issues. If you see them then you may be doing something wrong.

2nd:
I didnt give any ways to avoid anything is not true. Youve said before that you learned about rigging by reading my posts on the subject - those were your words. Ive made hundreds if not thousands of posts on the subject of rigging on CGTALK and have mentioned every single thing you have many many times over. Im not required to repeat things Ive said hundreds of times before and people are certainly free to use the search function to look things up. Your 'free tips' have been freely available on CGTalk and other forums long before as you pointed out by being able to learn rigging from the information others posted.

Generally if you have to set limits on rotational channels to fix popping or flipping then somethings wrong with that rig. Such fixes generally seem to come back to bite you in the end. I cant recall the last time I had to use limits on rotational channels to fix things like that. Using limits in that way is treating the symptom and not curing the cause.
Also setting your goal strength to 100 or more generally works on 'normal' size characters but not for very large or very small characters sometimes. The smaller the character the larger the goal strength and vice versa.
You also forgot to mention that the scale of the scene can effect the stability of the IK. If a rig is very far from the origin it will start to get twitchy. This has to do with the the scale needed for the scene vs the accuracty needed for IK. You also didnt mention that its important to move IK Goals in arcs because things move in arcs and you are less likely to 'stress' the IKsolver when IK Goals get very close to joints.
For parts of a rig where I want a combination of IK and FK (Part time IK) I use IKBoost which works great. Encouraging people to avoid a great tool because you cant seem to figure it out is doing nobody any favors.

3rd:
Saying that I think LWs IK is perfect is something I have NEVER said Peter. No rigging tools in any application including LW is perfect. THAT I have said before many times.

Mash,
Why is necessary to take a jab at anyone? Interesting little conspiracy theory too. How well do you know LW? Well enough to determine if something is an issue with the sortware vs someones knowledge of that software? Also, recommending a C4D tutorial is probably not as useful as knowing LW since both are VERY different.

Jaco,
I repeat what I said to Peter and Mash; Why the need to bash anyone?
My programming abiliites are not an issue here. I had mentioned that getting the effect of muscle, skin, fat etc was possible in LW. NEVER did I say that there was a muscle "system" or that prgramming was required. Those were all things you brought up not me. As far as an explanation of how I would go about doing it in LW would also depend on how well you know LW.

coremi
03-26-2005, 05:57 PM
titaniumdave

http://www.newtek-europe.com/uk/price/price_e.html

So tell me how 1295 euro is less than 650?



exactly what i said above, i don't need someone comming and telling me how stupid i was to buy Lightwave when i could buy XSI, thank u very much for pointing this out. In my case i bought LW from someone and not directly from NT, couldn't afford it, but there are people wich bought from NT and the y don't have to feel it was a poor choice because u come around showing how green the grass is on the other side.

titaniumdave
03-26-2005, 06:02 PM
exactly what i said above, i don't need someone comming and telling me how stupid i was to buy Lightwave when i could buy XSI, thank u very much for pointing this out. In my case i bought LW from someone and not directly from NT, couldn't afford it, but there are people wich bought from NT and the y don't have to feel it was a poor choice because u come around showing how green the grass is on the other side.

I've never called anyone stupid for buying lw. Buy and use whatever you want, its no sweat off my balls. But when people go around saying "its all I can afford" when they know its bs is annoying. But back to my original point. There is no reason why you should'nt try out a demo of a different software if someone found a solution to your problem when no one using your software has. Learn from them and port your knowledge to lw and if lw can't do it well then you're just out of luck, email nt.

imashination
03-26-2005, 06:05 PM
Mash,
Why is necessary to take a jab at anyone? Interesting little conspiracy theory too. How well do you know LW? Well enough to determine if something is an issue with the sortware vs someones knowledge of that software? Also, recommending a C4D tutorial is probably not as useful as knowing LW since both are VERY different.

Its not as useful, no, but its better than nothing, which to date is more useful than anything else which has been offered here. I was pointed to this thread because someone said some help was needed by someone with a vehicle suspension rig. Seeing as I've made a DVD on that very subject, I offered what I could; the scene file with expressions intact to be pulled apart.

Rotations, positions and calculations can all be transposed from one app to the other.

I made my other comment because it seemed like a suitable moment to point out the obvious. Not so much a conspiracy theory as a home truth.

ThE_JacO
03-26-2005, 06:14 PM
Jaco,
I repeat what I said to Peter and Mash; Why the need to bash anyone?
My programming abiliites are not an issue here. I had mentioned that getting the effect of muscle, skin, fat etc was possible in LW. NEVER did I say that there was a muscle "system" or that prgramming was required. Those were all things you brought up not me. As far as an explanation of how I would go about doing it in LW would also depend on how well you know LW.

talk of twisting someone's words...

I never implied you said programming was involved, infact I made a clear point of why I suspected none was.

I believe I have some ground to stand on when talking about muscle systems, having written most of our inhouse one, having participated in the writing of another at a different company and having seen the source or the setups for a couple others.
I also know several wavers (some of them worked with you btw) whose knowledge is up-to-date and extensive and more then once I discussed with them how mine or their efforts can be ported across platforms.

now, that I know of LW doesn't offer any open access to any tool based on a springs network, and the cloth system doesn't have a "tighten in place" option, neither there's a shrink wrap that can cache states before and after, and softbody will not support contributive or mutually contributive deformations in place.

care to say at least what elements of LW you would employ in devloping a decent muscle system with skin on top of dynamic driven muscles please?

and please don't twist my words again saying I implied other apps could, if we develop inhouse or use tools that don't come in any standard mainstream app there are very good reasons, which is why my interest in what you were talking about was initially -sincere-

later on down the line though I honestly got annoyed at how you took stabs at T4D and other people's knowledge, when your words were "I don't remember when I last came across any", which clearly conflicts with your rig (whether it was made to demo a single feature or not) presenting the very same problem.

please put your money were your mouth is.
thanks in advance.

and with this I'm out of the posting circle (although I'll go on reading) because I probably caused enough distress as it is.

Jarrede
03-26-2005, 06:33 PM
How well do you know LW? Well enough to determine if something is an issue with the sortware vs someones knowledge of that software?

.

I many cases explained on this board, it seems as if it's an issue with the software. Fact is, other packages, (maya) are much better than LW when it comes to rigging characters, and anyone who's used it will agree, LW's character tools have always had more flaws than others, it's just not something Newtek puts as it's number uno priority, is it useable? yes, but should an artist have to deal with it's substandard tools? heck no.

I've worked with you before Larry, I've seen some of the work you've done, and I've gotten the impression from myself an others that you like to practice the art of rigging in theory, and often times pratical real world production uses expose it's flaws. You know more about LW rigging than anyone I've met, but you never seem to be able to follow through with shining examples of your ideas. While I don't agree with people jumpin on the "LW riggin bandwagon of hate" I' don't see why you've put so much effort into defending it. A lot of it's quarkyness one can overcome, but not without a lot of effort, too much effort IMO.

for the longest time I thought I hated rigging, turns out I just hated rigging in LW.




I had mentioned that getting the effect of muscle, skin, fat etc was possible in LW.



To this day, I have never seen it done well in production, and honestly it may be possible, but at what cost?

coremi
03-26-2005, 06:52 PM
please check this link, is from a good 3rd party plugin developer, 95% Lightwave 3D plugins, and this is a link with their most important customers:

http://www.evasion3d.com/about_us.html

this customers were there before even X-DOF for 3DS MAX was released...

don't tell me they are only using lightwave for some modeling, cause the plugins are mostly for Layout.

Is Lightwave so bad, why the hell this studios use Lightwave, u start to think that Splinegod is right, u have to know the tools before u say they suck. Is Character Animation used more than 15% in 3D world graphics ? i don't think so.

Jarrede
03-26-2005, 07:01 PM
The issue is not that LW is so bad when it comes to rigging, it's the alternatives that are so good. :)

LW has it's strengths in other areas, it has a powerful modeler, it's texturing is fast and easy, the native renderer is still one of the best thats out there, managing large scenes with hundreds of objects are a breeze, but it's character tools fall short with technical issues and how they're presented to the user.

"Is Character Animation used more than 15% in 3D world graphics ?"

where are you getting statistics to back this claim?

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 07:05 PM
Methods in LW to create the effects Ive mentioned:
1. Endmorphs - particular effects can be modeled and activated in various ways
The nice thing about using endormorphs is that the exact displacement can be sculpted by hand. Another nice thing about endomorphs is that you only deal with one object that stores all the changes (morphs) on that single object. I dont have to have multiple object morph targets.

2. Normal displacement tool - using textures to activate morphs in particular ways. There is also a plugin called Smart Morph that gives in more control with this method. I can, for example, activate an endomorph(s) in particular areas using weight maps and a gradient. Using this technique I can have the bottom of a foot expand and squish based on distance to the ground. How that actually happens can be tuned in the gradient panel and/or combined with expressions. Displacement of vertices along their normals can also be used as well as standard displacement or bump maps in the same way.

3. Motion modifiers/expressions - These can be used to activate endomorphs in various ways based on distance to objects or motion within a range etc etc. For example I can animate a wobble effect in a muscle by hand using a single endomorph and then link that hand keyed animation to the rotation of a bone using cycler. Cycler can be used to play back this wobble only within a certain rotational range. That same bone used as the controller can be used to blend many different endomorphs in and out at will to get the proper effect. Expressions can be used to link endomorphs to any other items quite easily. Endomorphs can follow other endomorph channels, texture channels, motion channels etc etc.

4. Cloth FX /Motion Designer - Can be used with collision objects under the skin which can create the effect of muscles/bones pushing against the skin. Weight maps can be used to determine which areas are fixed and which areas are effected by collision objects. Many other options are available as well.
The muscle objects under the skin can be controlled via bones, endomorphs, expressions etc. Lower rez objects can also be used to drive higher rez versions and endomorphs layered on top. Hold structures can be created as a proxy object to drive a skin. These structures can be created using strings of 2 point polygons which act as springs. How much they compress, stretch, wobble can be tweaked and controlled via several methods including weight maps. Theres a lot of controls that I havent mentioned, too many to go into but you can always read up on them in the documentaton that comes with LW.

5. SoftFX - quicker way of getting type of wobbling in skin effects and so forth.

6. Bones - LW bones are deformers already. When activated they work immediatly. The effect of bones on vertices can be tuned via weight maps. Simple joint compensation and muscle flexing is already built in. Muscle bones can be created and then controlled via expressions, motion modifiers etc. Bones and other displacements such as endmomorphs can be tied together as mentioned earlier. Bones or other items can also have dynamics applied to them which can be affected by wind, gravity, collisions, motions and so forth.

7. Spline defromers such a Shift Spline Transform or FIs Bezier bend can be used to also create muscle, skin, fat effects. Multiple spline deformers can be used on single objects and weight maps used to determine which splines effect which areas. Various aspects of each deformer can be controlled with the methods Ive mentioned earlier such as expressions, motion modifiers, dynamics etc.

Thats a quick overview but Lightwave definately has the tools plus many of these can be accessed via lscript or plugins.

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 07:18 PM
Jarred,
When was the last time we worked together? Years?
Practicing in theory or in actual use is important to learning the strengths and weaknesses of each application. Generally I find rigging in LW to be pretty straightforward. Where it gets difficult is generally where rigging in most appls get difficult - dealing with ways to get very realistic deformations.

Which is better for rigging depends on the circumstances. Ive seen people struggle with rigging in just about every application. The reasons depend on their level of expertise, the level of expertise of those around them, time frame to get things done in etc etc. Ive used LW in places that were also using maya. Ive heard just as much bitching coming from the Maya artists as from the LW artists. Ive seen LW artists look on in envy of some features in Maya but also see as much staring from the Maya camp.

One very interesting comment Ive heard from another LW artist when asked which Maya feature she would love to see the most in LW. Her answer was "budgets and time" Maybe when a feature is done with LW where they have the same budgets, crew size, programmers, support staff and time frame then we can make a comparison. I defend it because its nowhere nearly as bad as some claim. LW has some great tools and more are on the way. :)

ThE_JacO
03-26-2005, 07:19 PM
I'd say this makes it pretty obvious that you've not only never seen a real muscle system working, but haven't even tryied what you're posting about on more then maybe a ball acting as a bicep for a lowres mesh.

cloth FX doesn't have tighten controls and is flakey on multiple object collisions contributing to the same areas and soft FX doesn't do mutually contributive deformations (let alone do them with several muscles interacting with each other).

just for a test, and we're talking an enormously diminutive test here for a muscle system, try having 8 or 9 muscles (3 strips in the forearm, a pinner in the wrist and 4 masses for the upper arm) that twist under a lowres mesh (lowres for a muscle system arm would be somewhere around 8k VERTICES wrist to shoulder, otherwise there's not enough density for creases and bulges to form and you defy one of the two purposes of a muscle system).

post a video of that working with muscles sliding on top of each other and bones in the forearm and the skin behaving nicely and I can tell you for sure that I'll buy several LW licenses and publicly apologize.

hey, this is only the nth time that I hear/read somebody babbling about muscle systems without ever having used one and knowing what purpose they serve.

I don't doubt you know LW inside out, but I'd be ready to bet that in a closed room without an internet connection you couldn't perform basic tasks on any other app (except maybe C4D you seem to have some familiarity with) if you were given a whole day to do it.
therefore please stop telling people everything is fine, can be done, and you've already done it with all the apps and LW is the best at all of the tasks.

some things you simply don't know about.

Nemoid
03-26-2005, 07:22 PM
agree totally. Lw is a good solution for rigging. if well done, lw works good. some prob can be found on the IK solver in complex chains, but it all depends from the problem to solve by the rigger. plus, there are currently alot of good rigging solutions like

acs4, The setup Machine, Maestro, T4d tools and LCS the new plug wich works in layout directly too :h (http://mio.discoremoto.virgilio.it/linograndi2/LCS_demo_01.avi)http://mio.discoremoto.virgilio.it/...LCS_demo_01.avi (http://mio.discoremoto.virgilio.it/linograndi2/LCS_demo_01.avi)ttp://mio.discoremoto.virgilio.it/...LCS_demo_01.avi (http://mio.discoremoto.virgilio.it/linograndi2/LCS_demo_01.avi)

know your app, and u will work efficiently with it :)

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 07:33 PM
Jaco,
Ive seen muscle systems and understand what they do. This thread was never about muscle systems. I thought I was pretty clear that I wasnt talking about programming a muscle system but using LWs built in tools to get the EFFECT of skin, muscle, fat etc.....apples and oranges.
How many apps come with muscle systems built in?
BTW cloth fx does have a shrink control. If you go back and carefully reread this thread the ONLY person babbeling about muscle systems is you. Youre also the only one bringing up coding. Are you suggesting that the way to cure Infinitites problem with deformations is to code a muscle system? How many people here were thinking about hyper real muscle simulations as a solution to Infinities remarks other then you? :shrug:

Nemoid,
Amen! :thumbsup:

coremi
03-26-2005, 07:38 PM
ThE_JacO

"I don't doubt you know LW inside out, but I'd be ready to bet that in a closed room without an internet connection you couldn't perform basic tasks on any other app (except maybe C4D you seem to have some familiarity with) if you were given a whole day to do it.
therefore please stop telling people everything is fine, can be done, and you've already done it with all the apps and LW is the best at all of the tasks.

some things you simply don't know about."

i don't know if splinegod said that, you maybe right, but for sure T. Albee said that too. :D

Jefe
03-26-2005, 07:41 PM
Thanks Larry and Matthew for their help with my suspension rig. You were both very helpful, and as I compete the rig, I'll keep you posted on the results. Its nice to see a forum working the way it should. Software specific forums with software specific questions are NOT specific to what program one uses when offering advice or help. So thanks Matthew for the C4D file. It has helped me out, and as any true 3D artist knows, ITS NOT THE PACKAGE. Its the Artist.


Geffe

Jarrede
03-26-2005, 07:43 PM
Jarred,
When was the last time we worked together? Years?
Practicing in theory or in actual use is important to learning the strengths and weaknesses of each application. Generally I find rigging in LW to be pretty straightforward. Where it gets difficult is generally where rigging in most appls get difficult - dealing with ways to get very realistic deformations.

Which is better for rigging depends on the circumstances. Ive seen people struggle with rigging in just about every application. The reasons depend on their level of expertise, the level of expertise of those around them, time frame to get things done in etc etc. Ive used LW in places that were also using maya. Ive heard just as much bitching coming from the Maya artists as from the LW artists. Ive seen LW artists look on in envy of some features in Maya but also see as much staring from the Maya camp.

One very interesting comment Ive heard from another LW artist when asked which Maya feature she would love to see the most in LW. Her answer was "budgets and time" Maybe when a feature is done with LW where they have the same budgets, crew size, programmers, support staff and time frame then we can make a comparison. :shrug:

It's all about presentation, I feel that Maya presents it's rigging tools in a more straight forward manner than LW, simple clicks create bone chains, two clicks creates an IK chain and it's IK doesn't give you any fuss, changing the rotational pivots of the bone axis is a breeze, applying constraints is straight forward, but most of all, being able to paint skin weights directly onto the object while you pose it! and if there's a problem with deformation in certain areas, you can simply animate the points! Painting softbodies is just as easy, yet if you wanna dig enough Maya is so open-ended someone like you would go nuts with it.

Motion Designer? com'on Larry you know how arbitrary and non-intuitive those settings are, nobody could predict how long it would take to get anything done with it because there are just too many factors that can come into play and delay the user for who knows how long.

It's not to say that LW can't do the end results of what other packages can do, it's all in how it's presented to the user and how much time it takes, most artists don't even wanna get anywhere close to things like scripting. Your gonna get bitching from any package.

You really need to apply that big brain of yours to an app like Maya, you'll love it I know you will. It's not to say anyone has to use just one software package, I've come to the realization that using other packages for it's strengths and weakness will make anyone a more valuable employee, this industry is unstable at times, and I really don't see how we can afford to limit oursleves.

Every package has it's strengths and weaknesses, and I love using LW, but I just don't see it's character tools as one if it's strengths. I don't want this to turn into a software war, but if people don't recognize some of the shortcommings in the software they're using they''ll never feel the need to look for anything better.

Jarrede
03-26-2005, 08:00 PM
So, to the original posters question "Is LW the worst rigging software out there?"

my answer is no. :)

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 08:02 PM
Jarred,
The funny thing is all the complaints you have about the way LW presents things are the same complaints I hear from people trying to learn Maya and a great many who already use it. I find LWs interface far more intuitive. The deepness of Maya is a strength in some circumstances and a hinderance in others. Ive seen large teams run with it and smaller teams flounder in it.
Every 3D app has those aspects that are as confusing to some as motion designer is.
Those are precisely the reaons I use Lightwave. The more I can do the more work I get. Ive had to do all kinds of things that I can get done quickly by myself. I dont have a problem with going with Maya, XSI, C4D etc. If I ever have to I can and will. So far Ive always been to busy working with LW to have to. :)

Jarrede
03-26-2005, 08:13 PM
Jarred,
Those are precisely the reaons I use Lightwave. The more I can do the more work I get. Ive had to do all kinds of things that I can get done quickly by myself. I dont have a problem with going with Maya, XSI, C4D etc. If I ever have to I can and will. So far Ive always been to busy working with LW to have to. :)

hehe, I know what you got, you got the fear. It's okay to play both sides. hehe... :)

Jarrede
03-26-2005, 08:19 PM
Jarred,
The funny thing is all the complaints you have about the way LW presents things are the same complaints I hear from people trying to learn Maya and a great many who already use it. I find LWs interface far more intuitive. The deepness of Maya is a strength in some circumstances and a hinderance in others. Ive seen large teams run with it and smaller teams flounder in it.
Every 3D app has those aspects that are as confusing to some as motion designer is.
Those are precisely the reaons I use Lightwave. The more I can do the more work I get. Ive had to do all kinds of things that I can get done quickly by myself. I dont have a problem with going with Maya, XSI, C4D etc. If I ever have to I can and will. So far Ive always been to busy working with LW to have to. :)

Oh don't get me wrong, Maya has some VERY non-intuitive features, IMO they need a complete interface overhaul, but it's character tools just aren't one of them, it's another thing that tends to frustrate me with Maya is it's inconsistency with those types of things. But the point I'm trying to make is we can use different software packages in our pipeline, and take advantage of only the strengths.

You just need to try it for yourself. Really, you'll recognize strengths in LW that you never saw before because we take them for granted. :)

sorry this topic is getting de-railed...

Nemoid
03-26-2005, 09:13 PM
as for riigging toos with normal lw toolset, lw has not so straiìghtforward tools for a reason. bone tools were added in release 8, while before, skelegons were used in modeler. so that's why maya presents bone tools in a more linear way. but this obviosly doesn't mean u can't rig in lw as fast as in maya for sure, also because rigging is way more than just building a skeleton.

for example, maya makes an intensive use of weight maps to use bones, while Lw doesn't need them. weight maps with bones in lw slow its responsiveness in animation. what i want to say is that the process is different in the 2 packages, and so ther e are different things to do todo a good rig in lw than Maya. this being said, lw has some flaws here and there, related to its UI to work easier with bones, and also, testing rigs is not so linear because w have 2 apps, modeler and layout. bone weight maps can be designed in modeler only. but since they are not needed in many cases there's no great prob.

every app as its rigging rules.

another good thing is that autoriggers i mentioned mainly work using modeler and then layout, but the final one uses layout only (great thing)

i would concentrate more lw real probs in ik solver in some cases.for exampple with multiple goal objects.
larry mentioned an important thing for lw working with large or small scenes change the ik behaviour. i really think this could use some enhancements from Nt, but maybe i'm plain wrong.

as you can see : its not that lw is the best one for rigging and animation, but its plain wrong that u can't rig, and animate in it.

another important thing i'll add is also that CGI is art of faking things.don't ever forget about this
if i can get the effect of a muscle flexing without building real bones, and muscles and all fat tissues and tendons, but only with well placed bones and expressions or some plugs this is the way to do it.

what u see is what it counts IMHO.

maya is a good app indeed. no prob with that, and it has surely good rigging features and cool possibilities. however, u can rig in Lw as well.

Remi
03-26-2005, 09:24 PM
I agree nemoid....completely. I wasn't saying you couldn't do what you can do in maya(and i'm sure you weren't just writting in response to me)...I was just saying the more controls you add..the slower animating becomes...and that's not good for animators...but I hear what you're saying.:)

telamon
03-26-2005, 09:47 PM
I have little problem rigging with LW. I can have the job done efficiently and quickly with the broad toolset that I have. Jonny Gorden's rig for Spawn is clearly a clear example that LW CAN be used for a top notch work whether people like it or not.

The question is: Do you think LW is the worst compared to others?

Personnaly, I do not care. We all feel more comfortable with an app than with any other.

I am very annoyed to say that I dislike a lot the layout's interface and particularly how difficult it is to apply a motion modifier or to type an expression.

Concerning motion modifiers, it is very tedious to click on a scroll down menu and to wait until seeing a name sounding like the one I am looking for. Moreover, the items are not sorted in the menus... what a pain !!! Moreover, there are motion modifiers which need to be modifier. THe smartmorph is quite great and effective. But why should I add two modifiers when I have created endomorphs for both pitch and heading ? Moreover, when I rotate the bones on both Pitch and Heading, I do not know if I have a possibility to make the pitch-related correction stronger than the heading-related one. It is the same for cyclist.

Concerning expressions, my god. Two way of typing them. The regular way and the LScript's way... Please remove the regular way !!! and please NT, give us documentation :bowdown:

Jarrede
03-26-2005, 10:03 PM
more controls or less controls, sometimes it just depends on what the animator wants.

How do you set LW IK's perfered angle? I know that bending the leg or limb into it's constricted position and making a keyframe for all bones and goal at a negative frame sets this?

I've had luck with it, it seems as if the limb will prefere to bend in that shape.


Also, is there a way to set the bones rotational pivot axis?

LW could benifit most from being able to paint wieghts directly in LW.

Celshader
03-26-2005, 10:12 PM
more controls or less controls, sometimes it just depends on what the animator wants.

How do you set LW IK's perfered angle? I know that bending the leg or limb into it's constricted position and making a keyframe for all bones and goal at a negative frame sets this?

IK will do its level best to maintain the earliest value recorded on the IK-controlled rotational channel. Whatever is the earliest keyframe on that channel controls the bend of the IK. So if the knee bends backwards on frame -100 and forwards for all keys afterwards, IK will note that the knee bends backwards on the earliest frame (frame -100) and try its hardest to maintain that pose for the knee. ;)

You don't need to make a keyframe for all bones, just for the bones that are IK-controlled. It doesn't have to be a negative frame, just the earliest frame. Your habit of keying it on a negative frame is a good one, though...I prefer to keep setup information on negative keys, myself. :)

Tesselator
03-26-2005, 11:16 PM
The question is: Do you think LW is the worst compared to others?

For rigging. The kind of rigging that is "mostly" used in production
for film and TV, Lightwave blows Maya out of the water ability and
sophistication wise, with XSI being better than either. You've all
heard me say I teach these apps so I won't go into that again here.
And this is ONLY MY OPINION formed from working with and teaching
all three & Observing and participating in many productions here in
Japan.

For Animation nothing beats Motion Builder IMO but all three of the 3d
apps I know well (X, M, L) are good for most stuff with Maya and xSI
having an edge over LW for various reasons - some of which are not
directly related to what a LWer considers "character animation tools"
but touch on deeper subjects such as scripting facilities and the modeling
process in general. Even so it still remains just an "edge". A good sized
edge but not overwhelmming or anything capable of delivering a death
blow to any of the other applications.
-Also opinion.

I think for rigging and animation as people have already commented on,
the one (and maybe ONLY one) sore spot for LW is the lack of a focused
and organized GUI for those specific tools. One that brings them all
together under unified and harmonious control system (Panel?). I think
this is why systems like:

TaFa, Mimic - http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5496

JT/MT - http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3690

RVRT - http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5594

Maesrto - http://www.spinquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5233

and all of the MANY auto-riggers are not only developed in the first
place but also recieve such a warm welcome when released! This
said if you know well the LW gui customization controls and facilities
available it's not to hard for advanced users to roll thier own and for
intermediate users to vastly streamline and conjuncture processes
needed to achieve the end.

--
I would also like to comment that while I think some comparitive debate
between applications is a good thing it really has gotten pretty silly that
everytime a LW thread opens up (at CGTalk) with frusteration as a means
some ill intending person(s) start spouting off about this app or that or
post a list of too obvious links - as if to say (In a LW Forum!) that you
should "switch". How unrefined and rude can it get? (BTW, I know some
of the intentions are "ill" cuz I read them saying so quite directly and boldly
in the IRC channels. And for those trying to second guess my meaning
I am NOT referring to TheJacO!

I for one would like to see some Moderator Policy formed around this
issue... Hehehe not that it would much good but it'd be a nice start. :)

:cool:

SplineGod
03-26-2005, 11:39 PM
more controls or less controls, sometimes it just depends on what the animator wants.

How do you set LW IK's perfered angle? I know that bending the leg or limb into it's constricted position and making a keyframe for all bones and goal at a negative frame sets this?

I've had luck with it, it seems as if the limb will prefere to bend in that shape.


Also, is there a way to set the bones rotational pivot axis?

LW could benifit most from being able to paint wieghts directly in LW.

The thing is that youre not really prebending the knees. What you are doing is determing a preferred angle by moving the knee joint out of alignment with say the hip and ankle. The triangle (the knee being the apex) created by this indicates the direction of the bend. The rigs we used at Foundation were set up for mocap but were also used with IK for handkeying and separated the bones into rotational bones which werent active, but acted as pivot points and hold bones. All that I had to do was move the knee bone forward a bit to get the IK to behave reliably.
Thats easy to do now with the the joint move or tip move tools. The Bone Twist tool can also be used to get the pitch lined properly. The rotate pivot tool can be used but I prefer the Twist tool.
I find that I rarely need weight maps or only very simple ones. When I do I rarely paint them.
Theres a nice free tool called FIs Weight Blur that alllows you to create weight maps and then blur them into other areas. It simplifies and speeds up that process.
Ive also been making it a point to include IKBoost in my rigging process. Once of the things it has is the ability to save and load poses. I use this to keep me from having to store poses out in negative keyframes. :)

Jarrede
03-26-2005, 11:40 PM
deleted by me! :)

didn't mean to clutter up the boards with de-railment. :P

although the very topic of this thread can be considered against the guidelines.

leigh
03-26-2005, 11:47 PM
Guys, please keep this thread on topic.

T4D
03-27-2005, 04:29 AM
Nemoid can you post another link to that LCS rigging plugin i get the page open but it gives me a bing sounds then shuts down mozilla and explorer ?? very odd

I have to point this out

Its strange but I never get any strange twitching or wobbling in LW and as hard as I try I cant remember the last time I did.

and then for someone who Never gets any strange twitching or wobbling you say all this.


Snip->

During the rigging process if I see something misbehaving, I fix it. If I see something wobble, I fix it. That goes for anything. In the end I make sure that a FINISHED rig doesnt have any of those issues. If you see them then you may be doing something wrong.

<-Snip->

Generally if you have to set limits on rotational channels to fix popping or flipping then somethings wrong with that rig. Such fixes generally seem to come back to bite you in the end. I cant recall the last time I had to use limits on rotational channels to fix things like that. Using limits in that way is treating the symptom and not curing the cause.

<-Snip->

You also forgot to mention that the scale of the scene can effect the stability of the IK. If a rig is very far from the origin it will start to get twitchy. This has to do with the the scale needed for the scene vs the accuracty needed for IK. You also didnt mention that its important to move IK Goals in arcs because things move in arcs and you are less likely to 'stress' the IKsolver when IK Goals get very close to joints.



You seem to have seen twitching or wobbling with LW IK, just like the rest of us
and you know the ways to fix it Just like the rest us.

The fact is alot of newbie's read these posts and are new to rigging
they read the word never and I think it gives the wrong impression doesn't it Larry ?



Anyway back on topic
I only know Lightwave, XSI and some Maya and Yes Lightwave could do with more IK options and better workflow when compaired to those others

But Don't think Lightwave is a dead horse as far as toon characters go,
it's Fast ( no weightmaps need on most of the mesh )
It's Endomorph system is a joy to work with
it's KISS ( Keep It Simple Stupid ) nothing gets in the way and there's not a hell of alot of setup time when you know the workflow.
And with the new timeline and dope sheet, character animation is alot of fun in LW :buttrock:

So it's great for those fast turn around jobs which most smaller studio have to deal with.

SplineGod
03-27-2005, 04:40 AM
Nemoid
I have to point this out
and then for someone who Never gets any strange twitching or wobbling you say all this.
You seem to have seen twitching or wobbling with LW IK, just like the rest of us
and you know the ways to fix it Just like the rest us.

The fact is alot of newbie's read these posts and are new to rigging
they read the word never and I think it gives the wrong impression doesn't it Larry ?



Peter you give beating a dead horse a whole new meaning...
I never said people dont get twitching or wobbling. I said I dont. Remi said he doesnt and I know others who dont. Apparently your rigs get wobbly. Invariably its the result of doing something wrong.
I dont put rigs kilometers from the origin so my rigs dont twitch. Giving newbies the wrong impression is telling that their rigs will twitch and wobble which is the case if they are doing something wrong. Telling them that its possible to have rigs that dont wobble at least lets them know that stable rigs can be created as others besides myself have pointed out. :rolleyes:

Nemoid
03-27-2005, 06:22 AM
T4d,

here is a link to Lino's post on Nt forums :

http://vbulletin.newtek.com/showthread.php?t=34879

if u guys have some probs with downloading the movies notice that i am going to host the movies in the near future in www.lwita.com (http://www.lwita.com) website

i am in direct contact with Lino so i think we'll be able to manage possible problems with this.

ThirdEye
03-27-2005, 11:07 AM
It'd be nice to see some examples of working rigs here or animations done with said rigs, is it possible to see anything? Thanks.

T4D
03-27-2005, 11:14 AM
check this out http://www.speedyshow.com/ download the first episode Very cool character animation done in Lightwave
also check out the production -> tech stuff :thumbsup:

ThirdEye
03-27-2005, 11:28 AM
Lol, that's nice t4d, thanks it was rather funny hehe. Anything to see from Nemoid and Coremi? I'm asking them since i'm sure from their comments they can show and explain where the problems are (if there are any) so it'll be simpler to fix them for someone else in this forum. Thanks.

telamon
03-27-2005, 12:21 PM
I have something which is still a WIP, an armpit rigging for a celshaded character that should not have extreme poses. Perhaps the breast is a bit too squached when lowering the arm but, I stress that it is a WIP.

The rig is extremely simple : One bone for the arm, a weightmap done with the linear falloff (one click) the body weightmap done with the VMap_completer plugin and two deformations done with the skelegon rotator

This rig suits my needs for THIS character, a couple of tweakings and it should be OK.

>> link << (http://www.spinquad.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=6826)

Celshader
03-27-2005, 12:26 PM
It'd be nice to see some examples of working rigs here or animations done with said rigs, is it possible to see anything? Thanks.

http://www.celshader.com/gallery/md/TKD-kara.mov

RobertoOrtiz
03-27-2005, 01:33 PM
New thread

HOW TO IMPROVE LIGHTWAVE: Rigging (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=224487)

-R

Tesselator
03-27-2005, 03:19 PM
http://www.axisanimation.com/movies/killz_intro.mov (http://www.axisanimation.com/movies/killz_intro.mov)
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/support/muscle_deformer.mov (http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/support/muscle_deformer.mov)
http://www.topix.com/reevan/dg_isolate.mov (http://www.topix.com/reevan/dg_isolate.mov)
www.3dluvr.com/ruairi

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Whoever says the rigging and animation system in LW
is only good for toons needs to rethink themselves!!!

The fact is that anything you can do to a toon you
can do to a realistic char. It's a huge lack of insight
to say otherwise. It additionally just speaks to that
particular person's level of expirience. This is not a
bad thing. If you have had sucess with toons that's
already better than most (in ANY software) but just
because you haven't duplicated that expirience with
realistic chars doen't mean that it's not doable. It is
and it's not that hard after you know how.

The number of links I could post of LW rigged and
animated photo-real characters with motions that
make one think they were prolly mocapped (when
they weren't!) is astounding! Allot of the people
doing this work no longer post here for various
reasones - but I won't get into that again. Also
NDA is a factor. But really any of you who have
been connected to the internet and following the
LW crowd since even as recent as 5.0 should have
seen hundreds of "awesome" examples by now. I
know I have!

BTW, in my previous post I was talking only about
realistic chars! Until recently toons were not really
something that I had any interest in trying to make.
Now that I have tried tho I can tell you they sure
are easy to do! Several minutes of "nice" animation
per day by one man in LW is not even stressful for
toon stuff!!


http://www.zerogravity.com.au/gallery/3Ddig/Zula/ZGE-BulaFacial.mov
Really, I kid you not!

Or hear for more: http://www.zerogravity.com.au/gallery/index.htm
etc. etc. etc.



:cool:

ThirdEye
03-27-2005, 03:25 PM
http://www.amazonsoul.com/MikaExp01.html (http://www.amazonsoul.com/MikaExp01.html)
http://www.axisanimation.com/movies/killz_intro.mov (http://www.axisanimation.com/movies/killz_intro.mov)
http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/support/muscle_deformer.mov (http://www.3dtrainingonline.com/support/muscle_deformer.mov)
http://www.topix.com/reevan/dg_isolate.mov (http://www.topix.com/reevan/dg_isolate.mov)
Actually I'm not sure about that top one.



In fact that's Maya.

Tesselator
03-27-2005, 03:27 PM
In fact that's Maya.



ok, thanks for that!

MJSherak
03-27-2005, 04:31 PM
Out of all the posts that I have read over many forums out there on the web.. It seems to me that no one really uses VertexPaint to do their weights.. There is even a loader that will load a scene file into VertexPaint with the heirarchy and animation..

Most of the time, I create the skelegons(and name them), run VertexPaint, do a base calc(which names the Vmaps to the skelegon names).. Then setup the heirarchy in Layout and do some basic stretch animations for the character rig.. Then use VertexPaint loader in modeler so I can see the animation and adjust the weights.. Now you can move the bones and play with the animation at the same time, it seems very powerful and easy to me..

I'm just amazed that I don't see more people using this method.. Heck you can even create Morphs at the same time if needed.. Among other things, VertexPaint has the most simple and easy way to copy and paste weights even across axis.. Along with things like symmety mode, selections based on polys or surfaces, colored weights(with overscale), normalize, trim branch, add, subtract, replace, erase, override, falloff, bone move, bone rotate, bone scale, bone rename, Vmap rename and fast real-time feedback..

Maybe most just have not looked into it or have used it at all.. But this IMHO is the only way to do weights.. I wish other packages had the simple yet powerful tools as they are in VertexPaint..

Anyway, my .02...

angus1965
03-27-2005, 04:53 PM
Cool this is getting exciting :D


Now the things I do to avoid IK problems


This is what I do to avoid IK problems.

I use Maya.

I will be writing a tutorial in the near future to get Maya animation out of Maya and in to LW. Easy too.

Jarrede
03-27-2005, 07:28 PM
This is what I do to avoid IK problems.

I use Maya.

I will be writing a tutorial in the near future to get Maya animation out of Maya and in to LW. Easy too.

hehe, word! :)

Celshader
03-27-2005, 11:22 PM
This is what I do to avoid IK problems.

I use Maya.

I will be writing a tutorial in the near future to get Maya animation out of Maya and in to LW. Easy too.

Cool, I look forwards to seeing it, too. :) I plan to learn Maya someday for professional purposes, because many large studios use it.

For home use, however, I cannot afford a $2000 character animation plug-in for LightWave. ;) For personal projects, I must use LightWave for rigging.

Auger
03-28-2005, 04:04 AM
Nevermind. IRTFM.http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/wise.gif

Out of all the posts that I have read over many forums out there on the web.. It seems to me that no one really uses VertexPaint to do their weights.. There is even a loader that will load a scene file into VertexPaint with the heirarchy and animation..

MJ,
Can you tell me where to find the loader for Vertex Paint? Is it part of V.P. itself or is it a separate plugin? I'd really like to check it out.

Thanks,
Jon

coremi
03-28-2005, 04:18 AM
edited the post.

telamon
03-28-2005, 10:34 AM
Brrrr I am not a fan of vertex paint and other tools like that, after using them, there are too many Vmaps to deal with. personnally, I do 6 VMaps : body, arms, left & right leg, head, eyes for all my characters.

Note that my rigs have up to 100 bones sometimes.

T4D
03-28-2005, 10:48 AM
This is what I do to avoid IK problems.

I use Maya.

I will be writing a tutorial in the near future to get Maya animation out of Maya and in to LW. Easy too.

:D now that's Piss Funny :buttrock:

I started using XSI as a LW plugin it's abit cheaper then Maya but then again i just upgrade to Essentials so it does go up whne you fall in love.

Are you using Point oven for the Maya transfer ?
I find it works well for XSI <-> LW.:thumbsup:

Sil3
03-28-2005, 10:51 AM
Are you using Point oven for the Maya transfer ?
I find it works well for XSI <-> LW.:thumbsup:

Geee u made me remember i havent even registered my PO license.... thanks :D

paragonent
03-28-2005, 11:23 AM
you now what guys.......in my oppinion.......this thread is soooooo useless, so...who wants to make xsi, c4d, maya....you're wellcome and leave LW...but let the LW users be.....if someone says it works great...let him/her be....let him work with the tool, make the money and live hapilly ever after. those who like other packages.....learn and make yourself better in that software.

everyone of us wanted to learn 3d and make a living and enjoying what he or she is doing, so anyone learned a software, work hard to achieve something, got hired, made some money.

what's the problem with LW?! some people like it some don't....so what?! personally i make LW and i'm happy with it.

if you like LW, make something good for it and for others.....if you don't like LW...np...there are other packages.

in the end...it doesn't even matters(like some good friends of mine said once).

good luck to you all guys and happy animating ^_^

don't be mean...be real mens and respect other feelings and people's freedom of choseing theyr path.

excuse me french ^_^

P.S. check my signature hihihi

pooby
03-28-2005, 12:11 PM
The Fact that these threads generate such a response indicates that lightwave does have a problem in the rigging area.

THIS IS A GOOD THING!! Especially for people who don't want to switch to another package.

Newtek will Do something about it if it's generally percieved to be a stumbling block.

I fall into the 'Lightwave is weak at rigging' camp. It can work, but it's a pain.. The fact you can force it do make an OK rig doesn't mean it's fine.

All of our stuff to date was done in Lightwave... www.movinghousefilms.com (http://www.movinghousefilms.com) and we still will do simple jobs in Lightwave.. Its quick and easy and we can all 'play it by ear'.

But we feel like XSI has simply overtaken Lightwave in Animation and rigging related areas by a long stretch , and as a proffessional studio, we want to be using the best tools for the job.

Celshader
03-28-2005, 12:17 PM
The Fact that these threads generate such a response indicates that lightwave does have a problem in the rigging area.

Absolutely. The IK Booster docs need a lot more work. ;)

T4D
03-28-2005, 12:40 PM
Whoever says the rigging and animation system in LW

is only good for toons needs to rethink themselves!!!



The fact is that anything you can do to a toon you

can do to a realistic char. It's a huge lack of insight

to say otherwise. It additionally just speaks to that

particular person's level of expirience. This is not a

bad thing. If you have had sucess with toons that's

already better than most (in ANY software) but just

because you haven't duplicated that expirience with

realistic chars doen't mean that it's not doable. It is

and it's not that hard after you know how.





I said that and I'll stand by it !!

dg_islate.mov - note the shoulders and where's the rib cage ?? why is the shirt moving when the hips do ??

Killz intro - Super work I've never seen that before WOW great work !!

BUT check for rigging @ 29 seconds look at the shoulder @41 sec the elbow @ 1:29 the shoulder.

and workarounds Oh please using lots of bones, endomorphs, object & plugins to get the perfect shoulders and elbows etc in lightwave it's just too much time and money.
Plus that method hmm :hmm: nice theory it's funny how you never see a whole character done up isn't it ? and avoid the shoulder area too.:curious:

project wise what would you choose
rig 5 more characters or get the shoulders right on one character using bones,endo's and expressions ?

have you seen Final Fantasy or any High level Human character animation ??
does your body deform the way those demo you showed ???

this is what a proper Bone/muscle system should be able to do

http://www.xsibase.com/forum/index.php?board=5;action=display;threadid=17517

direct link to movie http://xsi.fie.us.nyud.net:8090/muscleSystem/FIEMuscleSystemformyreel.mov maya has this too

you could NOT have done Final Fantasy in LW or any of that level of realistic Human character animation in Lightwave

1/ it does NOT have the tools

2/ even if it did, you would be using that many instances of it the interface would be completely unworkable for the animator

and again you could Not have even done the very toon movie Robots with Lightwave it's just missing too much high end rigging options.

& the links to Jonny's site Very Cool ( Jonny is a god :buttrock: ) but again they toons and as i have already said Lightwave great for that stuff it's really excellent for that type of stuff

Celshader
03-28-2005, 12:54 PM
and again you could Not have even done the very toon movie Robots with Lightwave it's just missing too much high end rigging options.

It is? Which options? :curious:

Pancho
03-28-2005, 01:10 PM
Unfortunately I can't agree with Cyrus. You just can't simply switch to another software package. First of all it's expensive, second you need to learn a lot from scratch (and that is simply "not possible" as a lot of us aren't students anymore and NEED to earn money) and then why should I. I decided to go with one software package and as a customer I can expect that this software gets developed to a point it doesn't fall behind competition. My recent rigging experiences weren't up to a level that I'd say hip-hip-hurray. And I do miss easy ways to deform amounts of fat and muscle on a character that it keeps its volume and doesn't intersect with itself (without waiting for hours till a frame is processed with ClothFX...and well, ClothFX is another issue). LW altogether isn't that bad, although it not brilliant either, but you can do a lot of stuff with it. Hopefully the developments of the new team lead us somewhere where Maya, XSI and other users envy us for certain ways we can work.

Cheers
Pancho

T4D
03-28-2005, 01:22 PM
It is? Which options? :curious:

My Post from Page 3 of this thread

but it's missing alot of rigging tools that are needed for high end characters
I just took my kids to see Robots and WOW the rigging in that movie was just amazing everything was mechanical but still moved like a toon

Metal characters strenching and bending for me it was more enjoyable to watch then manny's ass in Iceage
Robots just could not be done in LW without a hell of alot of endo's and expression = interface slowdown, and why do it when you can do it so easy in XSI and i'm sure Maya.
XSI has constrant deformation along path or surface something that was used alot in Robots

in other package rigging isn't apart of modeling and it shouldn't be apart of modeling,

Modeling is part of animation. and rigging's just the art of attaching modeling operaters to animation controls, you could say bones are just a modeling operator,
but in LW you have a huge wall between modeling operators and animation operators this walls stops alot of cool things in rigging.

watch robot and see how it moves, very cool but very hard to do in LW
now I've seen other 3D tools i see it's extemely easy using other packages
tho i must add some things are easier to do in LW But not the really advanced stuff

Castius
03-28-2005, 02:45 PM
You guys crack me up.

For the people saying LW is not good enough. Your right.

For the people saying LW is good enough. Your right.



If I wanted to waste an hour of my life I could gather up some of my examples showing that LW can do muscle system based deformation. Just to see if i can get Jaco to buy some copies of LW. 8)



But you know what, even though I’ve been able to pull off muscle based deformation is LW. It’s not as good as I’d like. Even though I’ve been able to get pretty decent high res deformation it's not as good as I’d like. You know who I blame?



MEEEE!!!



I'll bitch and moan every once in a while that LW doesn't do what I want as easy as I would expect. In the end it's my responsibility. If I want to make a better muscle deformation I’d learn even more about scripting or even start to learn how to program better to make my own skin deformation system. If I didn’t have the time I’d bight the bullet and buy what I needed.



But If you haven't figure by now that telling other people who say they can do what they want in the software they choose is a reflection of your experience and knowledge. Then you probable shouldn't be talking out loud. Because your wasting the time you saved by buying the software you couldn’t do yourself. Because that’s what software is. It’s a tool to help us artist do what we might not be able to do ourselves.



I’m great full to have the advantages of the 3d software we use. So in return I try to be constructive with my time. So at the end of the day I can be proud of the achievements I’ve made at what ever level it is. In stead of wondering if someone better than me with more experience might be laughing at my poor inexperienced knowledge of what I believe to be truth.

coremi
03-28-2005, 03:15 PM
check this thread:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=17525

way before LW8 and the new bone tools.

Sil3
03-28-2005, 03:23 PM
check this thread:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=17525

way before LW8 and the new bone tools.

That´s not a muscle system (even though it looks great)...it uses Muscle Bones, it´s not the same thing, Muscle Bones are a way to simulate Muscles, but there´s no Skin sliding, the Bones simply Strech and Squach and u cant control where the S&S will be, try to make the Bone strech only in it´s midle, u cant, try to add some dynamics into that bone, u cant.

A real Muscle System is hard and tedious to rig, and u need more than Bones to get them, since LW only accepts Bones as main displacement´s it´s very limiting (limiting doesn´t mean it cant be done).

Castius can we take a look at your scene? Im curious to see what u did :)

Kid-Mesh
03-28-2005, 03:27 PM
Castius - Nicely put man nicely put. But um, the_JAco buy some copies of LW....lol not.:twisted:

coremi
03-28-2005, 03:27 PM
i didn't imply this is a replace for a muscle systems, no way, but it can be done by people with knowledge, the topic is almost 3 years old, for sure Mike RB found a way to improve that.

Sil3
03-28-2005, 03:49 PM
but it can be done by people with knowledge,

Yap, and Taron and other Messiah users were doing the same in Messiah 5 years ago...

ThirdEye
03-28-2005, 03:53 PM
Castius - Nicely put man nicely put. But um, the_JAco buy some copies of LW....lol not.:twisted:

i'm afraid Jaco already dropped Lw when LW 6.0 came out and switched to SI|3D first, and then to SI|XSI.

nvvm
03-28-2005, 06:57 PM
Methods in LW to create the effects Ive mentioned:
1. Endmorphs - particular effects can be modeled and activated in various ways
The nice thing about using endormorphs is that the exact displacement can be sculpted by hand. Another nice thing about endomorphs is that you only deal with one object that stores all the changes (morphs) on that single object. I dont have to have multiple object morph targets.

2. Normal displacement tool - using textures to activate morphs in particular ways. There is also a plugin called Smart Morph that gives in more control with this method. I can, for example, activate an endomorph(s) in particular areas using weight maps and a gradient. Using this technique I can have the bottom of a foot expand and squish based on distance to the ground. How that actually happens can be tuned in the gradient panel and/or combined with expressions. Displacement of vertices along their normals can also be used as well as standard displacement or bump maps in the same way.

3. Motion modifiers/expressions - These can be used to activate endomorphs in various ways based on distance to objects or motion within a range etc etc. For example I can animate a wobble effect in a muscle by hand using a single endomorph and then link that hand keyed animation to the rotation of a bone using cycler. Cycler can be used to play back this wobble only within a certain rotational range. That same bone used as the controller can be used to blend many different endomorphs in and out at will to get the proper effect. Expressions can be used to link endomorphs to any other items quite easily. Endomorphs can follow other endomorph channels, texture channels, motion channels etc etc.

4. Cloth FX /Motion Designer - Can be used with collision objects under the skin which can create the effect of muscles/bones pushing against the skin. Weight maps can be used to determine which areas are fixed and which areas are effected by collision objects. Many other options are available as well.
The muscle objects under the skin can be controlled via bones, endomorphs, expressions etc. Lower rez objects can also be used to drive higher rez versions and endomorphs layered on top. Hold structures can be created as a proxy object to drive a skin. These structures can be created using strings of 2 point polygons which act as springs. How much they compress, stretch, wobble can be tweaked and controlled via several methods including weight maps. Theres a lot of controls that I havent mentioned, too many to go into but you can always read up on them in the documentaton that comes with LW.

5. SoftFX - quicker way of getting type of wobbling in skin effects and so forth.

6. Bones - LW bones are deformers already. When activated they work immediatly. The effect of bones on vertices can be tuned via weight maps. Simple joint compensation and muscle flexing is already built in. Muscle bones can be created and then controlled via expressions, motion modifiers etc. Bones and other displacements such as endmomorphs can be tied together as mentioned earlier. Bones or other items can also have dynamics applied to them which can be affected by wind, gravity, collisions, motions and so forth.

7. Spline defromers such a Shift Spline Transform or FIs Bezier bend can be used to also create muscle, skin, fat effects. Multiple spline deformers can be used on single objects and weight maps used to determine which splines effect which areas. Various aspects of each deformer can be controlled with the methods Ive mentioned earlier such as expressions, motion modifiers, dynamics etc.

Thats a quick overview but Lightwave definately has the tools plus many of these can be accessed via lscript or plugins.Guess that settles that :D

Jarrede
03-28-2005, 07:07 PM
It is? Which options? :curious:

How about controlling a large bone chain, or even large meshes with something like clusters? How about just grabbing some points on the model and animating them?

You've admitted in this thread that you haven't had experience with some of the alternatives. Until you do you won't recognize the strength and weaknesses.

because there is a fallout in the rigging area, it's created a demand for external animation plugins like messiah. If that demand wasn't there, the creaters of messiah wouldn't have much of a reason to do it.

They recognized that there is so much room for improvement that they could stand to benefit from a plugin of the sort. Whether or not they have achieved that goal is beside the point.

rezaansarin
03-28-2005, 07:19 PM
Hello
Excuseme but

you sit and say can do and another say can't do , and repeat and repea...
This way can follow you to purpose ??? i dont think so.

if any body say can't , Remember " Animatrix episode 1 " every things can if your knowlege is enough.

Thank splinegod and
Thank to every one share his knowlege.

leigh
03-28-2005, 07:26 PM
Is this the worst thread ever?

It's getting close.

c-g
03-28-2005, 07:31 PM
Is this the worst thread ever?

It's getting close.

It has some good ideas if you weed out the crap. It can't be worse than starting an official thread about what features to steal from other apps. That just screams 'there stuff is better than ours'.

Vertizor
03-28-2005, 07:33 PM
Is this the worst thread ever?

It's getting close.
Do you mean "close" as in distance, or "close" as in thread locked by moderator?

ThirdEye
03-28-2005, 07:35 PM
Do you mean "close" as in distance, or "close" as in thread locked by moderator?

close to be closed maybe? :D

SplineGod
03-28-2005, 07:36 PM
How about controlling a large bone chain, or even large meshes with something like clusters? How about just grabbing some points on the model and animating them?

You've admitted in this thread that you haven't had experience with some of the alternatives. Until you do you won't recognize the strength and weaknesses.

because there is a fallout in the rigging area, it's created a demand for external animation plugins like messiah. If that demand wasn't there, the creaters of messiah wouldn't have much of a reason to do it.

They recognized that there is so much room for improvement that they could stand to benefit from a plugin of the sort. Whether or not they have achieved that goal is beside the point.

You can animate large bone chains in LW pretty easily with IKBoost. It allows you to modify IK chains on the fly as well as pin/unpin controllers as you go. Theres also dynamics that can be applied to chains of bones or objects in hiearchies or combinations of both. Theres some advantages Maya has in some areas but the same goes for any app. The things that can be done with Endomorphs in LW is astounding plus being able to control them with textures.

Some of what you mentioned is true to a point and less true now then when Messiah first came out. I also know a fair number of Maya users who feel Messiah is easier to do things with than Maya. Theres also what people perceive they have to learn to get work vs what is actually better or not.

As Castius pointed out much depends on how well you know each app and how uptodate that knowledge is. Each app has its way of achieving an end. Thats what I tend to look at is what the end result has to be and how I will do it in Lightwave as opposed to comparing features that exist out of the context they were designed for. Its always the end result that counts. :)

RobertoOrtiz
03-28-2005, 07:38 PM
OK I am putting a gun on top of the head of this thread.


BANG ! I had it .

This thread has become a whine fest.

Do you want to talk in a PRODUCTIVE FASHION about this topic,
Well feel free to go here:

HOW TO IMPROVE LIGHTWAVE: Rigging (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=224487)


-R