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jmw
03-24-2005, 05:28 PM
Hi I am a new media student from London, I am currently researching for my final project. The theme I have chosen is 'selling out'. I have found varying definitions scattered around the web,most suggesting 'loss of integrity for financial gain'. For example, stencil artist Banksy has been accused of selling out after producing Blur's CD cover. On a much larger scale multinational corporations are guilty of selling out as well.

I plan to produce an animation in the style of the 1970s/80s public information videos, with a satirical twist.

Basically I would like people to write a few words about their definition of 'selling out' or what it represents to them. I just want to get some opinions on this to help me understand it a little better.

Thanks

Jamie Wood

www.dubpixel.co.uk (http://www.dubpixel.co.uk)

titaniumdave
03-24-2005, 05:34 PM
To me theres two definitions of selling out for "artist". The first is someone changing who they are to make money. For example a rock band changes itself into a pop band purely to make a buck. The other is someone using their image to sell something they don't like. For example someone trying to sell a mac when they've never used one or are just a pc user.

MattClary
03-24-2005, 05:41 PM
The definition of "Selling out" will probably vary a little bit, mostly everyone will agree it boils down to 'loss of integrity for financial gain', however, I will say that ANYONE who has ever accepted payment for something they have done can not accuse anyone else of having sold out. The only way anyone can retain 100% of their integrity is to produce art because it's what they enjoy doing, and they do it only for their benefit.

Craiger
03-24-2005, 05:50 PM
I'd agree with the definitions thus far.

In a perfect world there would be no money... thus there would be no selling out. Unfortunately if you don't sell out to some degree ,,, you are usually broke.

MattClary
03-24-2005, 05:54 PM
if you don't sell out to some degree ,,, you are usually broke.

Agreed. I'm pretty much a wh*re. I'm sick of the company I work for, but I let them do bad things to me because I'm well compensated.

paperclip
03-24-2005, 06:13 PM
Sometimes 'selling out' is a necessary evil for today's world. It'd be nice if we were all lauded for doing exactly the things we like but that isn't the case. Everyone has to bend to meet other peoples' desires at times.
If it's the only way you can make a living...

lovisx
03-24-2005, 06:24 PM
I don't consider working in CG selling out. Work is nothing personal to me, I'm using my skill to fill a need.

To me selling out would be distorting my personal artistic vision so that it can be more marketable, acceptable, and acclaimed.

heavyness
03-24-2005, 09:18 PM
there is no such thing as selling out.

its only become popular recently with the internet and people fearing change. if a local band signs with a big label, most people would consider that selling out. but the band's main goal is to just keep playing music. so if they have some major backing, that is less time they have to spend working regular jobs and concentrate on their craft. if you claim a band, movie director, or artist has 'sold out' then your following the easily lead flock.

everyone is out to make money, lets face it, we all need money to survive. just don't burn money for the hell of it and keep your head attached.

DangerAhead
03-24-2005, 11:37 PM
there is no such thing as selling out.
its only become popular recently with the internet and people fearing change.

Selling out is taking money for stuff when you don't need it. It's simply greed. There is such a thing as that.

Selling out was being talked about LONG before the internet. That's what Alternative music was all about in the 80s. People should fear some forms of change. Like "Mein Kampf" being the number one selling book in Turkey right now.

Corporations champion mediocrity. If you're willing to become mediocre for money when you don't have to (i.e., U2), then you're a sell out. period.

Sellouts Examples:
U2 iPod.
Dennis Miller.
The lead guitarist for the Sex Pistols as a DJ for a ClearChannel radio station in Hollywood.
Movie Theatres with commercials before the movie.
Putting Spiderman 2 Ads on Baseball bases.
Selling naming rights to historical stadiums (3com park vs. Candlestick)

gooseass
03-25-2005, 03:19 AM
*flashes back to issues of maximumrocknroll circa 1994*

-Vormav-
03-25-2005, 03:43 AM
The first is someone changing who they are to make money.

I think this is a pretty good definition.
It shouldn't be too loosely interpreted though; one might consider someone accepting a new job as that person "changing who they are." And I definitely wouldn't consider something as basic as that as selling out.

Nathellion
03-25-2005, 03:46 AM
The phrase "selling out" can be interchanged with the term expanding, because they basically mean the same thing. People compromise to make money. People who want to make a little more money compromise a little more. I don't think it's a bad thing, but it all depends on where you're sitting.

Regardless of it's creators motives, any IP on the market is there solely to make money, otherwise it simply wouldn't be there.

As an example, a lot of people define Metallica's release of the Black Album as the turning point in their career; when they officially sold out. But the fact is that they "sold out" when they first signed the contracts that brought them to the release of Kill Em All. The only reason people see the Black Album as the "sell out point" is because it was so different from their other releases and it left a lot of fans scratching their heads in dissapointment, therefore the only way they could deal with it was by insulting the band through said mantra. Of course they changed their style to expand their audience (ie, make more cash), but they did it for the same reason that anyone found out about them in the first place. So like I said, selling out is a term that's used mostly by people who don't get what they want/expect from something that's been consistent. People apply the term to music a lot more because it's so human, but if a game developement studio changes the look of their characters to make them more accessible, or upgrades the gameplay so a gamer can derive more fun, nobody really holds it against them (although I expect the former will change as games become more and more mainstream), and when the same studio releases a crappy iteration of the IP, people say it sucks, not that they sold out.

In my opinion being truly successful is creating something that you like and that everyone else likes as well...PIXAR does it all the time :p.

Tool puts it best:

"All you read and wear or see and hear on TV is a product begging for your fatass dirty dollar so shut up and buy my new record."

Bonedaddy
03-25-2005, 04:55 AM
The lead guitarist for the Sex Pistols as a DJ for a ClearChannel radio station in Hollywood.


I just have to chime in and say that I listen to this station every day, because of that, on account of it being so incredibly bizarre. CC doesn't do much with the station, and I think the majority stake is owned by a Spanish-language radio conglomerate. It isn't like anything else on radio.

JaMo
03-25-2005, 05:20 AM
if i had a chance to sell out i would do it immediately. i find it funny when fans think artist should stay poor or not change just to satisfy them. i myself would laugh all the way to the bank, retire, and play golf every day until i died.

Tim Deneau
03-25-2005, 06:08 AM
This is the problem when personal work becomes professional work. Some artists keep their integrity, most don't.

Kanga
03-25-2005, 11:49 AM
Giving up on your dream because you can't stand the flack.

playmesumch00ns
03-25-2005, 12:17 PM
If artists didn't "sell out", fanboy geeks would have nothing to get all worked up and sweaty about.

lovisx
03-25-2005, 02:52 PM
This is the problem when personal work becomes professional work. Some artists keep their integrity, most don't.

I think that's the delema, selling out but keeping the integrity of your work.

I think the Renaussance (i can't spell) artists are a good example, and that time period. All those artists had to please their employer, but they never stopped exploring and progressing their art.

RorrKonn
04-05-2005, 09:22 AM
This world does not allow you to keep your pride.
It feeds daily on your dignity and is not satisfied until it scrapes the last drop of prestige from your bones.

RorrKonn
rorrkonn@atomic-3d.com (rorrkonn@atomic-3d.com)
http://www.atomic-3d.com (http://www.atomic-3d.com)

polywrangler
04-05-2005, 07:32 PM
If you're doing cg for a living there is certainly no such thing as selling out because you don't own the copyrights to what you are working on anyway, well in most cases if you are a commercial artist. However if you are a copyright holder to your work you do have the opportunity to "sell out". Look at fine artist Thomas Kinkade. He is allegedly an accomplished abstract artist, but is known for his rustic realist paintings of cottages and light houses. Depending on your point of view, some say he sold out since he gave up on his abstract work. But I'm sure he's a happier person with the respect and rewards he has attained by making more acessible work. So maybe selling out doesn't have to be all that bad. On the other hand, if you make sports games .... ;)

jmBoekestein
04-05-2005, 07:38 PM
If artists didn't "sell out", fanboy geeks would have nothing to get all worked up and sweaty about.

superficial mimetist!(kiddin')

jebas
04-06-2005, 10:41 PM
Here's an odd thought about selling out. It may be nothing more than a generation gap between an artist and his fans. It seems to happen when the artist (but not the fans) get into their late twenties and early thirties. It's at that time in life where a person's thinking switches from conquest to security.

In your teens and early twenties, it's all about presense and conquest. People have said that kids are more willing to do something stupid because they think they are invunerable; I disagree. Those in their teens are early twenties less to lose. If I don't like my boss, I can quit my job. If I can't pay the rent, I can live out of my car. If you make a bad choice, the only person you hurt is yourself. Using the paraphrase the old quote, "Those with nothing to lose are the most free."

Now you move the same individuals and let them move into their late twenties and thirties. At this point, they have most of them have paired off with someone, and many of those have started to have children. Conquest is over. You are no longer fighting battles to win your true love, you are building a life around your true love and the family the two of you create. The present is still important, but now you also find yourself thinking of the future. Now you think about food, clothing, and housing as a constant. Now you are worried about doing something stupid. Now you about how they are going to handle things if your not there. Your decisions now affect you, your spouse, and children. Now you have something to lose.

Most artistist initially establish themselve in their early twenties. They achive the conquest of a career, and start building on that business or career. Most fans are about five to ten years younger than the artists. Therefore the fans are not yet old enough to truely understand the changes going on in the artist's life. A few simple examples. Teenagers are intested in songs about getting the girl; they are not interested in songs about keeping the wife happy. Teenagers are about how it looks, not how long it lasts. Teenagers are about getting things started, not keeping them going.

Now teenagers and those in their early twenties know these concepts of adulthood, but knowing and understanding are two different things. The artist, being older, now understands these concepts, and his work changes to reflect that. The fan, being younger, does not understand the changes, and labels it the best way he can, "selling out."

Everything that I have been talking about has been generalities. Anyone reading this forum can instantly name exceptions to everything that I have said. Since you said this was for a film project, the idea of a generation gap might give you something unique to work with.

slaughters
04-06-2005, 10:58 PM
Selling out - When an artist is doing exactly what he wants to do. Is being well paid for it. BUT it is not what total strangers think he should be doing.

That is when everyone shouts "Sell Out" !

Nguyen
04-07-2005, 10:27 AM
I think that selling out is a term that is used when we're all younger having no real sense of what survival means, naive about life, and how business work. As you get older and more responsibilities are handed to you a sudden realization will dawn on you that if you don't start thinking for yourself, no one will. Boy meets world and is changed forever. You become a man and ideals fly out the window real fast if you're baby's crying and there's no milk. The question really is how much integrety do you have if you don't seek financial gain from your work or adapt for profit while your 2 month kid is malnutritioned, could you really say that's integrity?

Stability also influences the idea, I think. If I had nothing to lose and content with where I'm at I could easily say I'll never sell out.

Mojo Rizen
04-07-2005, 02:21 PM
There are some good points here. The three posts about this one are quite true. Age can change your perspective, and open up more understanding.

It should be remembered that success doesn’t automatically equal selling out.

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