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liiga
03-22-2005, 06:47 PM
Liiga Smilshkalne has entered the Master and Servant 2D.

Challenge Page (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/masterandservant/view_entries.php?challenger=6004)

Latest Update: Final Image: Master Coconut
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115674089_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115674089_large.jpg)

Well, this is it. The final image. It's been an extremely fun experience, and I'm really looking forward to the next challenge. Good luck to everyone!

To recap:

The story of the image is that the central figure is a world dominating coconut that is being worshipped by all these people. The figures on the right bring and sacrifice a symbolic amount of blood and then move on to the left where they are granted some of the glowing liquid that is continuously being extracted from the coconut.

As for the meaning behind this, it is a gesture in the direction of the idolisation of the 'cool and unreachable' people that happens from time to time. Here I am exploring the various sides of this idolisation through the master-servant relationship - the figures around the coconut are apparently slaves to the one inside the coconut, whereas the one inside the coconut also serves those around him as the energy is drained from him. So in the end, everyone bows down to the illusory golden coconut shell. There are many more little symbolical details - the figures have different meanings - there's a mother figure with blood over her tummy, an old man with blood over his heart, a lady with not quite natural beauty with blood on her face. Moreover, the hoods cover their eyes not without reason. And every slave that is chained to the coconut's throne has a little key somewhere on her. And so on and so forth.

NOOB!
03-22-2005, 06:51 PM
welcome!! enjoy ur stay at the challenge hotel!

liiga
03-22-2005, 07:02 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111518128_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111518128_large.jpg)

First of all... I know what you're thinking, but I'm dead serious about the image's title. Or at least serious. The idea came from reading a 'useless fact' that "The liquid inside young coconuts can be used as substitute for blood plasma." This gave way to an idea of coconuts having the secret potential to develop intelligence and take over the world... which, in turn, lead to the idea that perhaps they're already in progress of doing so! Which, apparently, lead to this image.

Now, this is a very rough concept, and I'm not perfectly sure about the lighting yet, but the central figure will be this huge hairy coconut on its golden throne, with lots of human slaves on leashes. The one closest to middle will be making a clawing motion like a cat, with the rest being in various poses. The entire thing will be set in a vast dome-like structure, with arched walls. (I think coconuts would like round architecture, you know?) I'll probably be playing around w/ the perspective a whole lot. Might also widen the image to show some more background images... Will see. :)

NOOB!
03-22-2005, 07:05 PM
coconut eh?? hehe it cud work!

i'll look back later for another update!

Kyena
03-22-2005, 07:08 PM
Good luck Liiga - funny and original concept :)

liiga
03-22-2005, 07:08 PM
Thanksies. :)

Just noticed the things that the slave leashes are attached to on the coconut look like cartoony hands - they'll be golden rings in fact, probably as part of some more complicated jewelry.

MDN67
03-22-2005, 07:26 PM
welcome liiga and good luck:thumbsup:

liiga
03-23-2005, 02:09 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111586937_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111586937_large.jpg)

Calling this a lineart is an overstatement, but that's the closest it'll get to that before I go all painterly. And since the milestone's required... *shrugs* I really wish my tablet weren't dieing on me right now, definitely going to speed up once the new one gets here. >.>

Anyhow, about the picture - the row of figures in the background will be (miserable looking) people bringing gifts for the Master Coconut - entering from the right, exiting to the left. I'm thinking of mixing a sort of jungle feeling with modern techs - for example, the map in the back would be displayed on a screen, while there would be some parrots flying around etc. No idea how I'll go about tackling the perspective, but ah well. :D

liiga
03-23-2005, 05:49 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111600148_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111600148_large.jpg)

Blocking in general lighting. Sunlight is precious in the realm of giant world-dominating coconuts! :D Those yellow spots on the ground will be round'ish lights. I figured I needed smth to cast light on all those slaves so that we could see their faces etc. I think I'll be hitting myself later on for choosing so many lightsources. ;P

liiga
03-23-2005, 09:38 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111613914_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111613914_large.jpg)

Now laying in colors. Will add various plants on those green walls, still undecided on the floor. Figured the blood red just looks nice.

NOOB!
03-23-2005, 09:42 PM
whoa like a movie scene,excellent perspective.

keep it up!

liiga
03-25-2005, 03:07 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111763241_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111763241_large.jpg)

I'm done fooling around, and now getting to making this whole picture a notch more serious and meaningful. I think I'll redraw lighting as well, it doesn't work as it is.

Anyways, you know how all those cool characters in games as well as real life are that way because of their untouchability? In a sense, such character is like a coconut, because the soft inner world is protected by a thich, hardly penetrable shell. On one hand, we want to get a peak of that inner world, but on the other hand, we'd rather if they stayed within that thick shell, so we could dehumanise them, put them on a throne, and make a good example out of them. Who cares what they feel like inside...

Hoping that made sense. But yeah, here you go, a more serious master coconut.

OKMER
03-25-2005, 03:21 PM
Nice concept you got there,Looking forward to the further evolution of your pic.I'll have my seta and just watch!
Good luck and fun 2 U

Matteus
03-25-2005, 04:46 PM
Hey, that's nice! Green is good...

I very much enjoy the perspective and depth. If I were you though, I would want to play around and try pushing it a little further. Say for example blowing up the size of the middle front characters hand reaching in the viewers direction.

Anyway, good job. Keep it up!

liiga
03-25-2005, 04:48 PM
Thanks! Good idea about the hand, I hadn't thought about it. :D Perspective generally scares me, it's the first time I've actually put the whole perspective line thing to a good use. *chuckle*

liiga
03-25-2005, 06:21 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111774873_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111774873_large.jpg)

I like to tweak pictures a whole lot as I go along - can you tell? :D But I *think* this will be the final colorscheme. Just started on leaves around the map - I'm planning to cover the walls in plantlife and some technological tidbits. Maybe also some decorations. I don't know if I'll be adding more detail to the map. Wouldn't want it to overpower the coconut... will see later on.

Can't wait to start working on the figures, but background comes first.

ozhaver
03-25-2005, 08:19 PM
Master Coconut...interesting...*LMAO*

But now it has gotten pretty serious, even melancholic.

At first I thought the figure inside the coconut was a 'crack' instead and that something was going to come from inside it. I am loving the rusty red insofar!

liiga
03-25-2005, 08:33 PM
Thanks, Oz! :D Yeah, the figure on the coconut definitely needs refinement - just like everything else. I'll be playing around with it a bit more, probably adding some volume etc. I want it to remain dark against the soft glow of the coconut though.

liiga
03-25-2005, 09:26 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111785981_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111785981_large.jpg)

Started on the far background, with its leaves. The whole room will have its walls covered in leaves, although not just of this one kind. I didn't want to make the far wall overly busy, as there will be other elements in front of it. It's tempting to use the copy-paste tool at this stage. :P

Also refined the bottom of the coconut's throne a little, but the figure and the metallic parts still need a lot of refinement.

Arc80
03-25-2005, 09:34 PM
Hi Liiga,
Interesting concept. I think the color scheme is working so far and also that triangular composition that you have going with the two guys on both sides and the dude inside the coconut. I'm just trying to figure out the story base on your painting so far. I see a map of the world on the background...hmm...interesting. can't wait till it's more refine.

GoodLuck,
Archie

liiga
03-25-2005, 09:39 PM
Hi, Archie, thanks for the comment! :) The story (so far) is that the guy in the coconut is being worshipped for his shell - it's a big, shiny, inaccessible idol, placed on a golden piedestal. The crawling folks will be chained to the coconut's throne with golden chains, and there'll be streams of light/gold flowing from the coconut over the ground, forming 'puddles' or projectors, casting sunlight upon the chained figures. Also, such streams will be going over to the walls, supporting the plantlife. There will be people entering through the right door, and leaving through the left door - all worshippers of the coconut, probably carrying things as they come in and come out. But the actual person inside the coconut is left disregarded, alone, curled up, as the splendor and light are drained from him to be used by the mostly artificial world around him. I'm hoping it'll all be more clear once everything is drawn in that should be in there. ^^

beelow
03-25-2005, 09:41 PM
Woah! good stuff I can't wait to see how this turns. I love the choice of colours.:)

NYC77
03-25-2005, 09:44 PM
This is one of the most interesting concepts I’ve seen. Can’t wait to see how far you can take it! Best of luck.

Squibbit
03-25-2005, 09:59 PM
crazycool , really exceptional work ,art and ideawise

BaronImpossible
03-25-2005, 11:08 PM
I guarantee that if this contest ran for a million years, nobody would come up with this concept again. Coconuts and blood plasma. Hmm. Talking of blood, I'm not sure that it fits in with all that green. And I'm not sure where it's coming from either. Still, I like it :)

liiga
03-25-2005, 11:12 PM
Hehe thanks! :) I'm not perfectly sure what the blood will be doing down there either, probably mingling with fallen leaves. But I find that the greenness alone would get monotonous soon, with all the leaves that I'm going to put in, so I'll be trying to outweigh that with some wires up near the ceiling and walls, with red blinky things.

liiga
03-25-2005, 11:56 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111795016_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111795016_large.jpg)

I bet I'll have nightmares involving leaves tonight. Aaanyhow... The circle on the top will be composed of wires with some blinky stuff (read: lights), from which a main wire (or several) will be leading down to the top of the coconut. Likewise, the arch that goes from one doorway to another will also have wires all over, and they will be attached to the sides of the coconut. Other wires will go from the arch and circle to the trees all around. Probably there will also be loosely hanging ones.

Then I'll have the joy of figuring out how to depict the energy going from the coconut to the wires, not the other way round.

I know the leaves are a tad bland right now, but that's because there'll be so much in front of them - the hanging wires, and also a lot of people walking at the bottom, so I don't want to overcrowd the area.

I'll make the lights around the wires reddish, with yellow sparks of electricity or energy or whatchacallit all along them. And, uh, yes, I'll shade that other tree, too. Tomorrow.

igorstshirts
03-26-2005, 12:11 AM
Wow,

You paint very nice for being so young. Good luck, the leaves are insane!

fooxoo
03-27-2005, 10:52 AM
Extremely original and funny. Not bad, keep going!

R-K
03-27-2005, 11:22 AM
starting to look good now! At least you won't be caught from plagiarism ;)

You might really want to reconsider the color scheme if you want to include blood too..

liiga
03-27-2005, 01:30 PM
Thanks! Uh, Ranath, what plagiarism?

StealthPharaoh
03-27-2005, 01:55 PM
hey,privet..me knows couple russian words..lol
nice work..i like the perspective and the idea is unique and original too..i'll look forward for more updates..good luck to u :)

Big-Boi
03-27-2005, 02:10 PM
wow. youre off to a quick start! good luck to you

liiga
03-27-2005, 03:32 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111937546_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111937546_large.jpg)

*watches the rapid progress come to a screeching halt due to the time-consuming nature of all the detail* I've started on the wires and leaves on the left wall, as you can see. The patch on top shows most completely what I'm after in terms of the wires. However, I'll also be adding small bits of gold, and some lights, as well as different gadgets among all that stuff. The wires will be going down the left and right wall where the fat line-like areas are above the doorways. As they approach the doorways, the number of golden bits will increase. I'm also adding hanging wires that will be attached to the trees. The empty parts on the walls will most likely have some decorations, also slightly different kinds of plantlife, will see as I go along. Then there'll be big fat wires with yellow light going where the yellow lines currently are, attached to the coconut. I've already put the basis for the fattest wire in (the vertical one) - it's up there at the top. The rest will come as I keep working on the areas connecting the top w/ the doorways.

And it just hit me what the big problem with blood is - I haven't even started on reflections. :P Yes, I'm going to make the blood itself and probably also the floor tiles slightly reflective, so it won't be a big red blotch at all. I'll also mix the blood with fallen leaves, some of them red, so naturally there'll have to be some red leaves on the walls. I think I'll put them on ivy plants.

Overall this back-to-forth approach is bugging me a little, because there's a big reliance on textures created by details in the background, so it calls for some happy planning time lest I want to redraw big chunks of it all afterwards. And I don't. :P

Neozoom
03-27-2005, 03:57 PM
HEY!!! liiga!!!
nice strat ^^ and very happy to see you here too^^

Can't wait to see more achievement^^

MDN67
03-27-2005, 04:05 PM
hey the concept is very good and the realization nice, i like the ambiance of this pic, good work, i wait the suite:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

OrO
03-27-2005, 04:16 PM
Most interesting work!!! and great concept..good luck

liiga
03-27-2005, 10:42 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111963362_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1111963362_large.jpg)

The structure's finally starting to take shape. These tubes took much longer than it looks, for whatever reason. (Ok, so the reason was the microscopic detail I put into them. But I'll pretend I don't know that.) There's gonna be a set just like these on the other side of the coconut, too - and it'll be tempting to use copypaste, too... Ehh. :)

It's pretty apparent by now the central figure will need more colors to it than just violet and yellow, but I'm leaving it for laters when the rest of the colorscheme will be more detailed, so I know what colors to pick exactly. I'm pretty sure though I'll be putting some reds in it.

I'm not submitting too often, am I?

artjunkie
03-27-2005, 11:10 PM
great concept and I love your attention to detail... awesome colour choices also. I'll definately keep and eye on this one. Good luck in the challenge!

R-K
03-29-2005, 01:19 PM
I haven't done colorpicking but it seems like your'e working with quite high saturation with lack of variety in it. Maybe you could try going for more of it to build better focus (not saying yours is bad at the moment)?

TheFirstAngel
04-01-2005, 11:58 PM
very interesting work, *subscribing*, i like the colorscheme and the details very much. the comopsition could be a slight bit more compact, but all over a great start! best luck and have loadsa fun!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

ellenmillion
04-03-2005, 09:28 PM
Oh Liiga - this looks *fantastic!* What a start! Your work always has such juicy detailing. :)

calisto-lynn
04-07-2005, 02:12 PM
whoa, that's the biggest coconut i've ever seen.. very good colours.:)

Arc80
04-07-2005, 02:29 PM
Hi Liiga,

I haven't been on your thread for a while now, but really nice update. The details are coming out nicely. Can't wait to see more. I'll do my best to keep up with your thread.

cheers,
Archie

Neozoom
04-14-2005, 09:50 AM
I wait the next LIIGA!!!

:D

liiga
04-14-2005, 10:19 AM
It's coming, it really is coming! >.< I had to take a break to catch up with schoolwork and a few other projects, but as soon as I get some sleep, I'll resume working on this one. ^^ Not going to let it off that easily, hehe.

pushav
04-15-2005, 09:31 PM
Nice idea I like your idea about the coconut choking people. I found it funny.

Neozoom
04-15-2005, 09:33 PM
NEXT ! NEXT !!

liiga , your comment made me very happy :) thx passing by...

anyway , I'll post a huge lineart with atmosphere feeling in shadows and lights during the next days :) I'll post also the whole context and story :D

liiga
04-15-2005, 09:36 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1113597375_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1113597375_large.jpg)

I'm back and better than ever! I mean it, 'cause between this and last update I got Wacom Intuos 3, 8x6. ^^ A true improvement over the pesky, pesky Trust tablet.

So yup, I'm done with the far wall (YES!), and now will have to start thinking about those tunnels. I'm not quite sure how I'll be tackling them.

Also I've been tossing a whole lot of ideas in my head and decided that the walls need some huge ass faces in them. Will see about incorporating those somewhere. And maybe tieing keys on the backs of the people.

Adamos
04-15-2005, 09:41 PM
Hi!

Your captivating green colors really pop out! I like the fact you chose a theme something to do with the "Real World" at least in the background ther's a World map. Anyhow really a pleasant thing to look at! will check back later for updates!

(World) Peace! :)

Adam

liiga
04-15-2005, 09:42 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1113597728_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1113597728_large.jpg)

Ah and let me quickly spam a detail of those tubes. :D I drew some parts of them at 150% zoom, and completely ignored the temptation of copypaste! Glad those are done.

Neozoom
04-16-2005, 05:39 PM
Really Really interesting idee Liiga!!

But I think to improve ... you should put a different angle of view for originallity and style...
for the tubes... put them transparents with bublles in moving... :D


cool can't wait the next :)

liiga
04-16-2005, 05:48 PM
Interesting idea about the bubbles. I've no idea how I could squish them in there, but if I've time, I'll give it a try.

As for the perspective, dunno, I think that anything else will obscure important parts of the image, because the rows of people on left and right will also have some important attributes. Also I find that this composition stresses the 'power' of the coconut, ya know?

Ah and btw, I'm not cutting off the bottom of the image, as it may seem in the last non-closeup update. I just cut it off for this update to show a better view of the far wall. There'll be the chained figures and all, to show the scale of the entire thing and enforce perspective.

fooxoo
04-16-2005, 08:27 PM
I think you should make it a tad bit darker, maybe a little bit more shadowed... but it looks really good so far! Good luck :D

liiga
04-17-2005, 12:14 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1113693293_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1113693293_large.jpg)

This is the first figure other than the dude in the coconut. She'll be a slave chained to the Big 'Nut from a golden collar around her neck. She will be standing to the left of the coconut, on the piedestal, and one of her hands will be on one of the devices connected to the coconut, and the other will be handing a parcel of the glowing liquid to a person nearby. Or maybe just a huge drop. The perspective on her was a pain in the butt and I hope it's more or less accurate. (Is that ear too high though?)

And the eyes will be located on both sides of the picture, where the corridors will be. I decided to make the corridors look like there are stairs going downwards - it's just easier to get the perspective right that way. ;P

I'm getting a feeling I may have bitten off more than I can swallow, but it's a challenge afterall, so I'll persist. :)

daadaa
04-17-2005, 12:33 AM
love the detail ..especially the eyes on the arch.. looks awsome! cant w8 to see more :D

SoniaNotRed
04-18-2005, 04:38 PM
Hi, liiga!

Very original concept; very strong composition; beautiful, vibrant green; great leaves!

I'll be following your progress.

Good luck! :thumbsup:

fooxoo
04-18-2005, 04:46 PM
Those eyes are cool! it suits the subject! Keep up the good work :)

marcheen
04-18-2005, 05:05 PM
Hi Liiga, this is a nice painting. i like how you have handeled the details so far but i would agree with what Fooxoo said before to make it a bit darker. good luck!

liiga
04-20-2005, 03:54 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1113965653_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1113965653_large.jpg)

Yay, I have two figures done! Isn't that an achievement?

*crickets chirping*

Aaanyways, the standing woman will have a golden collar and chain around her neck, and she will be taking some drops of a shiny liquid (HUGE drops) coming from one of the devices attached to the coconut. The kneeling woman is holding one of such drops. (I know it's not that visible due to the background, but all the hooded figures to the left will have such drops.) The other hand of the standing woman will be in some sort of open gesture as if she'd just handed the drop to the kneeling one. Note, the hooded people will all have their faces hidden (not lazy, but trying to depict their blindness and fixation on the shiny droplets), and the ones to the left will have the shinies, whereas the ones to the right will be carrying sacks of blood (or just big droplets of blood red color) and pouring them at the basis of the coconut. That also solves the issue of 'where did that blood come from?'

This really is taking longer than I'd prefer, but oh well. Homework first!

xric7
04-22-2005, 04:57 PM
wow..
wonderful work!:eek:
realy cool idea and beautiful color & lighting:bounce:
more more more
still waitin 4


http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=227677

GhostInTheMachine
04-22-2005, 05:38 PM
very nice work. wish i had time to consider it properly, but i thought a 'good job' would be appreciated all the same.
btw. intuos 3 :buttrock: - ive only just got mine also. gl! :thumbsup:

liiga
04-24-2005, 03:30 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1114309827_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1114309827_large.jpg)

Well, looks like I'm done with the figures! At least most of them - I may add some a bit further in the distance, more transparent-looking and less prominent (like that guy on the upper part of the image, between the tripping lady and the tall guy). These definitely took a while!

By the way, I decided to squish a few stereotypes or otherwise more meaningful figures among them. On the lower half, starting from the right, the poor guy is crying 'cause he's lost his loincloth; then we have Ms.Silicon Valley with some blood on her face - must be yet another plastic surgery; then there's the old Scroodge, with some blood from his heart, I'm sure you can guess why; then we have a kneeling mother with scars over her tummy; the next person was supposed to have her arm amputated, but you can't really see it as it is hidden by the cloak - figured it may look a bit too out of place; on the upper half, the guy on the left is another Scroodge; the tripping lady apparently hasn't been looking under her feet and has been too overcome with thoughts about what oh what she'll do with the 'shinies' - too bad she's now lost them; and the girl on the piedestal who isn't wearing the hood will have a golden chain around her neck. The hoods in general are to show certain blindness of these people, as they've blinded themselves with illusions of worshipping the golden coconut. There is also a couple of figures more to the right that I dubbed 'peer pressure', one is sort of cluthing the cloak and the other is gently pushing her towards the coconut. Just having fun. ^^

Oughta say that there's one definite benefit from this challenge - it gave me an excellent reason to draw a whole lot of figures with different body shapes, in different poses and with skimpy clothing.

Oh and on the techie side, I would first sketch the figure at 150% zoom, then magnify it 2x, draw it out at 150% zoom, shrink 2x, then position at 100% zoom and delete anything that overlaps where it shouldn't. Easier to keep the detail and shading in check that way without massive files.

liiga
04-24-2005, 03:33 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1114309985_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1114309985_large.jpg)

I figured it was about time to post a wip image of what the picture looks like alltogether. As you can see I added a really quick reflection for the figures (I know it'll actually need some perspective adjustments, but that's for later on), otherwise they look a little strange.

Arc80
04-24-2005, 07:10 PM
WOW, that's a lot of updates since the last time i was here. It's looking really good. Just a personal thought, i wouldn't mind cropping it to get that little bit of panoramic view. You have some really sweet detailings in there and it'll be a lot of shame to not see it. It's just a bit too far and you have this wide open space and it's making the viewer curious on what's going on at the back. Your piece feels like a sculpture or an installation, which is best seen up close than from a distance.

I really like the feeling of this piece. To me, it's another modern approach to fine arts. :thumbsup:

cheers

liiga
04-24-2005, 09:24 PM
Thanks! ^_^ I know what you mean about the action being far in the background at the moment and been contemplating some cropping as well, but I haven't yet gotten to the characters in front and their scale and chains from their necks will be important in creating a sense of depth and perspective, which I believe will contribute a lot to the feeling of importance of the coconut. But yeah if that fails, cropping it is! :D

Oh and I forgot to address the suggestions to darken it a smidge - I'm not ignoring them, just seeing how the picture develops with its contrasts and lightness. There's still a lot of elements that I've not gotten to yet, so there should be plenty opportunities to balance it all out.

And I'm contemplating of putting some waterlillies on that big pool of blood, just for the heck of it. ^^ (Yay for creepyness!)

fensterer
04-25-2005, 09:20 PM
Wow, this is going to be a real vibrant piece I can tell! I like that each figure would have a story, very cool!:thumbsup:

Tranchefeux
04-25-2005, 09:28 PM
*

Your concept is original, and the refined :applause:

liiga
04-27-2005, 12:25 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1114557932_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1114557932_large.jpg)

Well I couldn't think of anything simple to do for this area of the picture, so I made it complicated. >.> Took me all day to draw that face and tree, and leaves, and wires.

Also, followed Oz's suggestion and added some reds to the shadows on the figures. You can't see the suggestion because it is only visible to ninjas.

It's a pity that jpg chewed up the reds/oranges a bit, lost some highlights in compression - the flowers coming out of the mouth of the big face are more orangey. A pity the filesize limit is 150 Kb for these things. ;P

Nehym
04-27-2005, 12:31 AM
Wow this is coming along so nicely and with such details! I,ve been reading your thread from time to time but never did reply but i can't help it this time - you are really going on the right track.

The color scheme is lovely too, vibrant yet not too much.. And adding more reds to the shadows really made the green stand out a little more. :) I fear i do not have any real constructive criticism for now but eh.. :\

I'll make sure to come back and follow your progress again later.

liiga
04-27-2005, 12:46 AM
Lilie, Tranchefeux, fensterer - thanks a lot, guys! I'm getting those nice warm fuzzies inside. :love: Really helps! I hope I'll be done with this before I'm 90. :D

Squibbit
04-27-2005, 09:38 PM
crazy pic , one of the best here , I so like all that detail and colors and mysticism
and everything

one thing to comment : i think it would look better if that world map had rounder
form, that the edges weren't so square, i could be mistaken

liiga
04-27-2005, 09:44 PM
Eee, thanks! I never thought about the rounder edges, will see how that looks. ^_^

beelow
04-27-2005, 11:21 PM
it has been a while since I have been here. This looks great keep up the good work!:thumbsup:

xric7
04-28-2005, 10:41 AM
realy nice work so far.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
good luck to u.

komaroml
04-28-2005, 01:42 PM
Nice composition. Very small details.:thumbsup: Keep it up.

Cheers,

Laszlo

daadaa
04-28-2005, 10:34 PM
looking really good, cant w8 for ya figures in the forgorund :D

SavageCreature
05-01-2005, 05:47 AM
It might have taken you all day, but I think it was worth it. Very cool (the face in the tree) Are there going to be more foreground elements? (It looks like you've got some sketch work in there for them) Can't wait to see where this one goes. (Why a coconut?)
c

liiga
05-01-2005, 05:52 AM
beelow, xric7, komaroml, daadaa - thanks! :D

SavageCreature, thanks, yes, there will be figures there. I am actually slowly working on them, but will post an update when they actually start making sense. They will be people kneeling and crawling, with golden collars and chains attached to the coconut's throne.

As for why coconut, the original inspiration for this idea was a 'useless fact' that the liquid inside young coconuts can be used to replace blood plasma. From there it morphed into this idea of a world dominating coconut, and from there it morphed into an allegory about the social tendency to idolise the 'cool and unreachable' people, while at the same time locking them up in their golden shell. It creates a situation where the people outside the shell are slaves to the one inside from their perspective, and the person inside the shell is a slave to those outside from his (or her) perspective.

Neozoom
05-01-2005, 09:59 AM
Hi liiga ? how it is going? ^^

nice evolving! like the details and the new carachters appearing :)

ThierryS
05-02-2005, 09:51 AM
Liiga, this is an astonishing picture, there is so much it's telling, and so many details. You've got beautiful colours too. All my best for your entry:thumbsup: :) . Looking forward to see it completed.

levent
05-02-2005, 10:21 PM
nice work
goodluck:thumbsup:

TheFirstAngel
05-03-2005, 03:59 PM
supercool update, rich detailed is slightly some of an understatement... keeo on rocking, love the face you added into the dome, looking forward to your next update! :wip: :thumbsup: :applause:

MDN67
05-03-2005, 05:14 PM
the work on the all details is fantastik, very great work

liiga
05-03-2005, 06:31 PM
levent, the1st_angel, MDN67 - thanks a lot! :D
Neozoom, thanks! I'm buried in deadlines and assignments of all sorts, but determined to actually get this finished on time. Nice work on your entry, too! ;) (Are you planning to fix the perspective on the sword's handle though?)
thierry2005, thanks a lot! You know I can't help but look back at your centaur character from time to time - to such extent that tonight I actually dreamt of being a centaur myself. How's that for impact? :D

Tranchefeux
05-03-2005, 07:37 PM
Hi, Super tes petits détails, j’aime particulièrement le visage, grande image prometteuse pour la fin, go, go.
:thumbsup:

liiga
05-04-2005, 01:00 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115164809_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115164809_large.jpg)

Here's the newest addition in detail - the slaves in front of the coconut. Still missing - golden chains and collars, shadows, reflections against the floor. Might also adjust the lighting some more. Will submit a full view of the scene in a minute.

liiga
05-04-2005, 01:04 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115165092_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115165092_large.jpg)

Here's the entire picture so far. As you can see, I detailed in the right side of the wall, too. The spot on the ceiling is just a little test for what I want to do with it - still undecided about it.
Tinkered with the blood, but it looks odd without the reflections right now. Also the figures look disconnected from the floor because there are no shadows or reflections yet - well aware of it. There will be more slaves on the right similar to the ones on the left - 2 more if I remember correctly. I am also thinking of adding some decorations on the floor, and there will be some glowing lines where the liquid from the coconut is mixing up a bit with the blood - will see how it goes. They will probably also affect lighting on the figures a little, but I haven't drawn them in yet because they will have a lot of say in the composition of the lower part of the image.

All in all I'm working on this as much as I can, although schoolwork and other projects aren't helping. Could someone out there invent the time machine already?! >.<

Nehym
05-04-2005, 06:57 PM
Ooooh~ Update! :)

I really like it so far, and with what you mentionned that yo would add, it can only get better.
Although i would say that maybe the right arm (her right arm) of the slave in the foreground is maybe a little too far from the body, the angle. Or it is both the arms that would make it a little hard to keep that pose? I'm not sure, something looks a little akward.

The figure inside the coconut is also a very nice touch, i would not have thought of that. :)

liiga
05-05-2005, 08:11 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115320271_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115320271_large.jpg)

Added the remaining figures, playing around with reflections now.

Not ignoring the suggestion to look at the arm of the woman in front - still trying to figure it out. ;)

To do (in no particular order):
* glowing streams
* finish ceiling
* finish the feet of the figures in the distance
* solve the composition slanting leftwards
* refine, refine, refine
* refine some more : >

camtheman
05-05-2005, 09:34 PM
Hey liiga—

so I just found this thread, (thanks for dropping in on mine, so close to the deadline, I feel like I've missed so much cool development on yours) I can't believe this pic! So funny, LOL twisted and original! Love the feeling of this, very unique style indeed. This has to be one of the most wacked concepts in the challenge... I love it!

:applause: :applause: :applause:

ms thread: http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?p=2246720#post2246720

Web: www.camerongardnerstudios.com

NOOB!
05-05-2005, 10:17 PM
interesting image,i like!

liiga
05-06-2005, 02:09 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115341737_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115341737_large.jpg)

I'm surprised, but in about 6 hours I went from 'I can kinda sorta see the end of this' to 'that's it? All done?' In this update I drew in the ceiling, refined the figure in the coconut (can't tell well at this size), added the glowy stuff on the floor (and a few plants sprouting from the floor - again, don't think you can spot them at this size and compression), added the chains and a little key to every non-hooded slave that was big enough to add it, and played around with levels.

In the end this turned out to include more symbolism than I had originally planned, but I'm not complaining. Makes it more open to interpretation. :)

I'm not perfectly sure if I'm done, but it seems so, therefore if you have any suggestions, this is very much the time to voice them! ;)

Oh and I actually got a friend to pose for me in a similar fashion to the lady in front, and although the pose is a backbreaker, the arm seemed to be more or less right. I figure she should be able to hold it for a quick swipe though.

P.S. Jpeg compression is Evil!

liiga
05-06-2005, 02:48 AM
Tranchefeux, I never said thanks, so merci! ;)
NOOB, Cameron Gardner, Lilie - thanks again! :)

Squibbit
05-06-2005, 06:28 AM
ever notice like the cocoon's the pupil of an eye
and the dude is the black of an eye and the trees
form the eyelid and the branches could be eyelashes?

Djampa
05-06-2005, 06:36 AM
Rich details, nice concept, incredible glowing colors.

Congratulations ! :thumbsup:

Anyway I am just figuring out all the symbolism you merged there too, there is a lot of stuph eh?

am7
05-06-2005, 04:02 PM
*DROPS JAW* looks great! There really must be put alot of hard work into this, seems like there is alot of details! I'm looking forward to seeing the final image in a higher resolution - without any jpeg compression loss! Good luck!

Neozoom
05-06-2005, 04:05 PM
Hahah !! really weird concept turning out there girl^^

nice coloring job :) original aspect and idea , ;) good

liiga
05-06-2005, 04:17 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115392620_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115392620_large.jpg)

I figured I should submit some close-ups from the final image, along with a little notes. I'm still not 100% sure about the level of refinement in a couple of spots, but those will have to wait until the sun goes doewn. (It's shining on my monitor. ;P) The close-ups are all taken at 100% image size.

Squibbit, I never noticed that before, but you're right! Pretty cool. :D

Djampa, thanks! Yeah, plenty. Just to name a few more obscure parts asides from the main concept, the archways have those watching eyes on them (big brother kind of thing), the slaves without hoods have little keys on them (to symbolise that they could be free if they actually wanted hard enough and that we're really masters of our own fate), there are a couple of plants sprouting from the ground (a hope for a better future, harbingers of possible upcoming chaos), the strategically positioned injuries on the people to the right (hard to make them out though), etc. etc.

am7, thanks a lot! I'm a detail maniac, that's a given. ^^'

Neozoom, thanks dude, I'm looking forward to see how your coloring will turn out!

eclipson
05-06-2005, 04:18 PM
Thats a very nice BG man...i like the floor that's filled with blood too, goodlux man!:thumbsup:

Nehym
05-06-2005, 04:21 PM
Finished? Well well, you finished it quite quickly, or not? Maybe i'm just confused and not realizing the real time it took.. Ah well, that's off topic.

About your last step, the details amazes me. But i think you should add a little more glowing stream in the blood, maybe one curving a lot at the base of the coconot, going toward the figure to the right then joining up with the bigger one? And the blood would maybe need some relfection to it, or spots that would be a little more bright red? Though i love the washed out feel you gave it too. I'm not sure.

Also, the extreme bottom left corner feels a little empty, a tiny bit. Though there are probably some details like the sprouts you were talking about, that got lost in the compression and resizing.

But overall, it does look really, really great. Very nice and original concept with symbolism but not too much that it jumps right at our face when we look at it. You did a good job! :D

liiga
05-06-2005, 04:30 PM
eclipson, thanks a lot! :)

Lilie, thanks for the crits, I really appreciate them! Yes, the corners are bothering me as well, but I'm scared of making them too busy on the other hand (that and I'm not sure what to put there). Will have to play around some. The blood does have reflections, as does the floor, even though they're kinda fuzzy. I think I'll leave it washed out like this - I've tried it brighter, and it ended up overwhelming the characters. But as for the entire thing being quick... welllll.... I started March 22, and this week been spending about 6-11 hours a day on it. So it was anything but quick. ;) Those leaves and figures took long to do.

Nehym
05-06-2005, 05:43 PM
Hehe yes.. You,ve got lots of leaves and figures, must have taken ages.

For the corners well i'm not sure either of what you could add.. Maybe some ther organic things, like if we were peeking through a bush and the figure in the foreground would be hissing at us for seeing the ritual? It could use the more turquoise/green shadow color you used in the background to bring it together.. ? I'm still not sure, i wish i had better suggestions to give you:shrug:.

But i'm sure you will manage to find something... One that an come up with such a concept can only have an idea for this; there is no other way! :D

xric7
05-06-2005, 05:49 PM
it's green here but so hot!!!:bounce: :buttrock: :thumbsup:
keep it up.
cheers.

liiga
05-06-2005, 08:56 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115409385_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115409385_large.jpg)

Alright I did a few minor adjustments and I think it's done now, although I'll submit the final image a few days later, just in case something else pops up that should be changed.

What I did was:
° Tinker with the corners. I added a smidge darker green shade mostly on the left corner, then added a few of those teensy little plants coming from between the tiles - similar to the one I showed in the close-ups, and finally added my signature on the lower left. Fills the place up well enough I think.
° Added in some leaves right below the right arch of wires. I don't know how I forgot those!
° Added the little key to the slave that had it missing - the one in the right, closest to the coconut's piedestal.
° Added the golden collar and chain to the slave right next to the coconut. It's not that noticeable, but it's supposed to be there, so now it is.

Hopefully that covers everything. It's easy to forget and leave out little but significant elements when there's so much going on in the picture. :\

xric7, thanks!

Anyhow, although I feel I'm done here, crits are nevertheless welcome.

Hmm and for everyone else who's participating, are you going to post your images elsewhere only when this challenge is over or before that? I noticed I haven't seen too many around even from those that I know have completed theirs. I'm debating going ahead and posting in a few places to get crits in a timely fashion, but not sure if that's a good idea. Suggestions?

Vahn
05-06-2005, 10:45 PM
wow .... thats an amazing, freaky, nice, disturbing, cool, strange, green & beautiful entry

im glad u posted in my thread so i could find this :D

id personally would like to see another character in the right corner ...more close up ...
another one leashed & straining to get away with his face twisted his hands gripping the leash on his neck ... but thats just me liiga... if you say u are done, u are done :D

its very good and im looking forward to see this in high res :applause:

liiga
05-06-2005, 11:15 PM
Lol, thanks! That has to be the most interest array of adjectives devoted to this picture yet. X) I see where you're coming from about another character, it would probably be interesting, but I doubt I'd want to wrestle another in. It may tip the balance a smidge too much in favor of the frontal plane.

About the full res image, it's my first time participating in a CGTalk challenge, so do we get to see them when people submit the final images? If so, how?

Vahn
05-07-2005, 12:08 AM
hehe id like to know that myself....

i just read that the final pic will be uploaded to ftp as tiff (? not sure )

but if u got to have your own or somebody helps us out i dont know :(

liiga
05-07-2005, 03:15 AM
Well in the e-mail they sent out, it says that you have to upload one final image as .jpg as a normal milestone, and then one .tif under .zip compression to the ftp address - just go to http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/masterandservant/final_image.php to see the password, URL and all the other attributes for doing so. It also says so in the FAQ thread. So I know that the judges will be able to see the full res images, but as for everyone else, no idea.

MDQ
05-07-2005, 03:33 AM
Hi Liiga. I like your image. Specially the faces on the sides. However, the girl facing backwards in the floor gets a bit lost. I haven´t noticed that key on her back until You posted a close up. Keep the good work!

ThierryS
05-07-2005, 11:37 AM
Liiga, only saw your reply now... Hehe, how does it feel to be a centaure? Good for you you didn't dream about the mister frog character haha:) ! Your pic is getting better and better. Incredible composition!:thumbsup:

liiga
05-07-2005, 08:58 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115495915_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115495915_large.jpg)

A small update on the slave on the floor - attempt at stronger outline. Any good? Also, does the chain near her need to be refined any more? I can't make up my mind. I don't *want* to do it, but I don't want it looking too sloppy either. :\ Help?

MDO, thanks! I'm not really expecting anyone to see the keys when I squish the picture into 750 pixel width + jpg. ;) But since you're not the only person to say that she gets lost somewhat, I tried to bring her out a bit more with a stronger outline caused by backlighting. Does this help any?

thierry2005, thanksies! I oughta say, it was pretty cool being a centauress, but running was extremely confusing at first! Not to mention finding appropriate clothes. And yes, I'm VERY glad there were no giant frogs around. O.O

SoniaNotRed
05-07-2005, 11:53 PM
Yes, we'll get to see the high res pics when the voting starts.

It's a great picture (I love the vegetation :drool: and the colors), but I get the funny feeling that the blood is part of the floor instead of being on the floor. Maybe it should have some kind of volume?:shrug:
Anyway, it's just my opinion...

Good work! :applause:

liiga
05-08-2005, 12:06 AM
Ooh that's great news! All the beautiful pictures to be seen... :drool:

About the blood, I know what you mean, but I'm not sure whether to do anything about it and how to do it. You see, I had it all drawn out with making it thicker where the floor tiles meet, and thickening it around some edges and smearing around others... And then came the blurry reflections and it all went to hell. x.x That said, I'm not sure, I kind of sort of like it smeared out for some reason. You see, getting the blood fade and not take over the picture is another problem. So in the end it's very tricky - on one hand, it looks glued to the floor, on the other, I'm not sure how to preserve the reflections correctly if I do make it thicker in some way, on another hand (let's imagine we're centipedes or something) there's that problem that it may become too strong compositionally and distract from the main stuff, and on another hand it should thin out in the distance anyways, no? So in the end, I have only one question - would someone like to bleed all over a big marble floor and take a reference shot for me? :D Please? Okay, kidding, but seriously, does it read as blood without reading that in the description?

(And are the chains on that slave okay or not? XD *indecisive as hell*)

Nehym
05-08-2005, 12:47 AM
It does look like blood to me at least. :) But to give it more volume, you could try to distort the reflections jsut a little bit so it is different than the one from the floor, to suggest the volume of it.

About the chain, maybe you could refine i just a wee bit for the high res version, since ti wil lbe seen. If it would be only a small rsized version, you wouldn't need it but it will be seen high res, better take a little 10-15 minutes to refine it some more. Better safe than sorry, Liiga. :)

By the way, i love how that detail shot looks, i'm not sure why, just looks appealing to me. Random babbling here.. :bounce:

liiga
05-08-2005, 01:53 AM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115513611_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115513611_large.jpg)

Thanks, Lilie, I dig your crits. :) You gave me an idea about that blood - I don't think I could find a way to distort the entire reflections (I went and flattened the layers so that I could do level adjustments), but I did play around with the edges of blood near reflections and I think it helped. Oh and also tried to refine the chain. ^^

Nehym
05-08-2005, 05:36 AM
It is small details that makes great work, i tell you! They make the difference between ordinary images and those that stands out.

Subtle changes, but it makes the difference. :) And i might also add that i like he way you made the key in the back on the laying down figure to the right bighter, we can see it better when resized, even it if is only a little spot.

Hm.. Well now i definatly have no more crits to give you, i can only wish you good luck with the contest! :thumbsup:

Djampa
05-08-2005, 07:37 AM
Getting much better!

No critics, you made such a nice work, I still keep watching the work, and more I look ...
more I like :thumbsup:

The light distribution on your painting and the color schemme is very original, and I can't say much about except it is very unusual of what I have seen before.

Unique work!

Good Luck!

LadyMedusa
05-08-2005, 07:47 AM
Intresting consept you got here. Its different!

liiga
05-08-2005, 02:16 PM
Thanks a lot, guys! *big hug* :D

TheFirstAngel
05-08-2005, 06:36 PM
Ah, wow, the reflections look awesome! no crits so far yet, keep on rocking!!!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

liiga
05-08-2005, 11:07 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115590056_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115590056_large.jpg)

Okay so today I was staring at Baron Impossible's entry (again), and it dawned upon me that I needed to work a bit more on the ambient light and outlines in a few spots. You know how there's that rule about putting a lighter outline along the edge of a round object to make it look round? I tried that in a few places and I think it's better now. Particularly noticeable it's on the slave in front, which is why I'm showing her. I think she fits in better now - the dark outlines in a few places were a bit too jarring.

Now I've a question, the reflection of the piedestal of the coconut, do you think it's ok or does it need more detail? Every opinion is eagerly awaited.

And the1st_angel, thanks again! :)

liiga
05-09-2005, 10:28 PM
http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115674089_medium.jpg (http://www.cgnetworks.com/challenge/entries/8/6004/6004_1115674089_large.jpg)

Well, this is it. The final image. It's been an extremely fun experience, and I'm really looking forward to the next challenge. Good luck to everyone!

To recap:

The story of the image is that the central figure is a world dominating coconut that is being worshipped by all these people. The figures on the right bring and sacrifice a symbolic amount of blood and then move on to the left where they are granted some of the glowing liquid that is continuously being extracted from the coconut.

As for the meaning behind this, it is a gesture in the direction of the idolisation of the 'cool and unreachable' people that happens from time to time. Here I am exploring the various sides of this idolisation through the master-servant relationship - the figures around the coconut are apparently slaves to the one inside the coconut, whereas the one inside the coconut also serves those around him as the energy is drained from him. So in the end, everyone bows down to the illusory golden coconut shell. There are many more little symbolical details - the figures have different meanings - there's a mother figure with blood over her tummy, an old man with blood over his heart, a lady with not quite natural beauty with blood on her face. Moreover, the hoods cover their eyes not without reason. And every slave that is chained to the coconut's throne has a little key somewhere on her. And so on and so forth.

ThierryS
05-10-2005, 06:43 PM
Hi Liiga, I'm glad I see the final picture before I leave. Beautiful work and colours. All my best luck for you and your painting. I hope to see you again on this forum in a next challenge. :wavey:

Thanks for your kind comments and support during this one. I'll remember you're the one who dreamed of the centaure hehe! :cool: (wish I could have seen you walk:argh::) )

Cheers,
Thierry

liiga
05-10-2005, 07:50 PM
Thanks a lot, thierry2005, best of luck on your trip! :)

paperclip
05-10-2005, 08:06 PM
Liiga, congrats on finishing your entry-- it turned out beautifully! Love the colors!

:beer:
cheers,
theresa.

Mythmaker
05-10-2005, 10:12 PM
Great pic Liiga! I wish you luck in the judging! :)

liiga
05-10-2005, 10:26 PM
Theresa, Mythmaker, thanks! Good luck for both of you, too!

TheFirstAngel
05-21-2005, 08:00 PM
Wish you all the best on the finals. your piece is unbelievable, always was. your huge amount of details and your wonderfull characterdesigns are so impressive! best of luck from now and see you soon!:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

xric7
05-21-2005, 08:35 PM
wow...:eek:
wonderful greeny stunning!!great painting and details.:bowdown:
congrats.best luck in this compitition.cheers.:bounce: :buttrock:

liiga
05-21-2005, 11:14 PM
xric7, thanks! :) I adore your entry, by the way, particularly the candlelights and the vampire's hair. :D

the1st_angel, thanks a lot! I really hope the problems with your entry will get solved - at least there was a note of that in the FAQ thread, so it gives some hope!

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05-21-2005, 11:14 PM
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