View Full Version : Joint Move Question

03-16-2005, 10:17 PM
Have you ever used Joint Move and then hit <space> and suddenly some or all of your bones have disappeared?
They're still there in the scene editor though, but their rotations are this: nan"
and the rest rotations are this: nan.0
and the rest position is: nan Mm


03-17-2005, 03:44 AM
i havent used Joint Move or the bone tools. but i think the 8.2.1 patch was supposed to resolve some issues with bonetools.p.

fyi: NAN means not-a-number. in lw parlance: bug. :D

03-17-2005, 05:26 AM
Thanks. I guess I'll forward this one one to NT.

03-17-2005, 06:08 AM
I dont think they disappear but shrink to a very small size. I thought that was fixed but maybe not :)

03-17-2005, 01:07 PM
well the positions get screwed up, too. Lots of nan mm.

I just think it's funny that I find it since I don't do a great deal of character work. I guess the Mac beta-testers do even less then me, which I didn't think was possible :D

I also had to send a scene to them where joint move, having worked numerous times in the scene, suddenly decided it would rather crash LW from now on. Now maybe it was the bone tools' way of telling me my rigging sucks. I don't know. :hmm:

03-18-2005, 12:35 AM

I sent you an email about this.

Do you have bones w/ pivot rotations recorded? This may be the problem. Try using "remove RPR" tool for now and see if that helps. If not, send me the rig and I'll try to reproduce and fix the problem.


03-18-2005, 01:22 PM
I don't use rpr anymore (thanks Kretin :thumbsup: )
Record bone rest position is ok, right? That's what I use along with additional bones now to make other bones go to zero (quite an annoyance if you ask me, but you do what you gotta do).

I manually fixed the bones that suffered the "Nan Attack", so I don't have a scene saved to show. This happened before when I first tried out the new bone tools when 8 was released. Overall, I've been pretty lucky with this recent build. There was just a couple of Nan Attacks and one issue of Joint Move and Mirror suddenly wanting to crash LW, but I got around that by manually copying and moving bones into place and then Joint Move decided, "ok, I'll work again". I sent the latter scene to Deuce.

03-18-2005, 06:08 PM
I use RPR and never have issues. The tool is useful when, like any tool, is use properly. Yes it can interfere with expressions or targetting. Targetting and expressions can also interfere with other things as well if they arent used properly too. You dont avoid tools because they dont work in every situation because no tool does. Thats why theres several ways to do things in many cases. Its like the joke where the guy says to his doctor "it hurts when I do this" and the doctor says "well dont do that". :)

03-18-2005, 06:14 PM
I'm not going to continue a debate that has gone on before, especially when I'm hardly a stand-in for your counterpart.
I chose to not use rpr.
-the end-

03-18-2005, 06:37 PM
Thats fine Dave. Im not debating anything. Keep in mind that youre experience with follower and targetting is a perfect example of what I said- no tools work all the time in every situation. If I gave up tools that dont work perfectly in every situation I wouldnt be getting much done.
Keep in mind that youve stated that you dont know rigging. Ive done rigging for many many years. Im just sharing what I know based on that experience. You can take the advice or leave it. :)

03-28-2005, 05:53 AM
The thing is that tools like RPR can destroy your rig and you realize that after days or weeks hard work. I did. So there are tools you shouldn't use unless you know what happens, and they are not marked red.

But the doctor says:" Ha, it is only the medicine I gave you, it sometimes does this and sometimes that and it is not documented in any way, but there is rumour that you can't take pills like this and that with it. It is just how medical industry works, you know. Anyhow you just need to take your pills, no matter what and learn to live with the side effects. And don't argue with the industry cause they make you the pills you need, just order some extra literature about the matter."

This just from one that changed doctor and pillbrands few times and ran more or less into samekind of issues. :banghead: Oh yes, it hurts so bad, but I love it.

03-28-2005, 06:32 AM
Out of all of the things that can screw up a rig or the rigging process Ive found RPR to be at the bottom of that list. The things that Ive seen that cause far more problems are:
Forgetting to have a rest pose to go back to in case a mesh gets messed up.
Mixing up Resting bones (R key) and turning bones on and off (ctrl + r keys).
Forgetting to turn off IK, Match goal, expressions, motion modifiers etc before resting or reresting bones.
Forgetting to make sure layout is in parent coords when rigging.
Freezing a character model and not saving a subpatched version.
Forgetting that drawing skelegons in the wrong viewport screws up the pitch on bones.
Forgetting that unless skelegons are welded to other skelegons they arent parented.

Its all about knowing your tools :)

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