CGTalk - max 6 wishlist

BrandonD

09-23-2002, 04:11 AM

--EXTRUDE GIZMO
Not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean a custom manipulator when you perform an extrude operation? If so, manipulators have been scriptible since day one. See Bobo's:

http://www.scriptspot.com/bobo/mxs4/geommanipulators/
http://www.scriptspot.com/bobo/mxs4/modmanipulators/
http://www.scriptspot.com/bobo/mxs4/lightsmanipulators/
http://www.scriptspot.com/bobo/mxs4/cameramanipulators/

--OGL speed
Yeah me too. Luckily system/card performance continues to get leaps and bounds faster.

--transformation relative to anything like in Mirai
Have you ever used the Pick Coodinate System type? It's in that dropdownlist next to the scale button. It allows you to choose an object and transform the selected object based on the picked object. Been in there since about 1997.

--magnet like in mirai
Not sure what that's like. Anything like soft-select?

--non-linear animation tools like everyone else
The capability has been in there for a long time (though in a more simplistic way) and now it's even easier with weighted list controllers. It just doesn't have an editing UI like the others (hell, it was around before them), but take a look at what Bobo scripted up:

http://www.scriptspot.com/bobo/darkmoon/eNLArge/

Character Studio has had Motion Flow for several years now, which is very much NLA. In fact they are building on it for CS 4, but adding a video editing style interface.

--relax tool in UVW (probably will get it's interface in 5.1)
Not sure about that one. Something like the Relax modifier but in UVW Map modifier? Speaking of UVs, have you seen Texture Layers? www.mankua.com

--Bezier handles control improvement in all modules
Hmm, you have auto-tangents now, you can break handles, etc. What else would you like?

--alternative way of managing layers
There are already several new script UIs for the layer system, and there's still always Dave Humphries venerable LayerMan www.scriptspot.com

--better material editor system like Maya
Ah a node based system? It's there, but all under the hood. Don't believe me? See Bobo's UI http://www.scriptspot.com/bobo/darkmoon/tmg/

--real-time solvers or whatever it's called in maya
Lost me on that one. 4 different IK solvers aren't enough? Are you talking about Caching?

--proper nurbs
yeah, that's a bummer. NURBS in MAX have always been weak, but at least it's not a NURBS-centric app. Still that's partially a modeling issue and partially a renderer issue.

--fix bugs and add flexibility to expert mode
Yeah, I'm all for that. The good news is for years now they've continued to expand the customizability of the UI. In fact, since R4 I've worked almost exclusively in Expert Mode on dual monitors with hotkeys and custom QuadMenus. Best of all, if you don't have a command for something you can write a macroscript (very simple process) and it will be assignable as either a hotkey or menu item. For example, every major new project I work on I create a custom menu that allows me to hop around on the server in the directories where my content goes. I have another macroscript made of only a few lines that launches FrameCycler and loads renders. The beauty in macroscripts is that they don't have to be a single hardcoded line, but can be a contextual series of operations.

--force 3dconnexion to write a working spaceball plugin
Hehe, that's a cool idea.

dvornik

09-23-2002, 05:09 AM

I wanted to petition Bobo with a request for an extrude manipulator. Anybody with me on this? Maybe I'll post some screenshots. I've seen his manipulators and I think it would be technically possible to write one for extrude. The way it works you hit extrude and get this move, scale and rotate gizmo in one and it's very natural. You just keep generating segments and you shape the volume as you go.

Magnet is soft selection on steroids. And it's part of that relative transformation concept. Like in three clicks you define an arbitrary axis of transformation and the falloff (no numbers or spinners, just click on the model) and just scale or rotate it. I have a very limited exposure to Mirai, but I've really noticed this feature. I'm aware of what's in the dropdownlist :)

Relax tool is there like Chris mentioned, but without UI, you need a script: here (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18429)

I have to check other Bobo's scripts, but I doubt the node-based material editor and non-linear animation are there yet. I've seen Bobo's work in progress combustion-type schematic view tool somewhere, I guess it's the treematograph you're talking about. Definitely a good idea.

And generally, plugins are great, but there are things that have to be part of the system's archetecture. Like now, poly tools are all over the place. A button here, a r-click there. A tool and an options box somewhere else...

Dr-spline

09-23-2002, 05:10 AM

ok extrude along path

it needs a built in hair plug like xsi's . I hate shag.
Reactor, hmm it could be great if it was more powerfull then again i dont know how to use it very well yet

BrandonD

09-23-2002, 06:02 AM

I'm actually all for splitting MAX into modules - character and effects. I for one do mostly effects work so I tend to focus on procedural tools like particles, volumetrics, dynamics, crowd sim, etc. I have no real use for character tools. Likewise, someone doing lots of character work doesn't have much use for the above. I'd just hate to see all of that stuff rolled into one app, something that could force it to collapse under its own weight.

Iain McFadzen

09-23-2002, 08:10 AM

If Discreet just make it stable and useable on complex scenes I'll live without any new features (yeah... right).

That said, I also wouldn't say no to a Mirai-style overhaul. That app's 2-3 years old and it's a disgrace how little it's been ripped off :)

Joebount

09-23-2002, 10:39 AM

I totally agree with Iain, I'd just add good nurbs à la Rhino and I would be the happiest guy !

Who really need caustics and other gadgets like that. I mean, will you use them everyday, and if you do, wouldn't it be better if you bought a software that do that and only that : Max 5 radiosity is good, but it's nothing next to the powe of Final Render or Brazil (or Renderman, or Entropy, or...).

Just use all the functionnality that are inside the software out of the box, then try free plugins, and only after you can begin to argue.

Max 4 was cool, Max 5 is great.

Just my 2 € cents :)

Chris Thomas

09-23-2002, 12:45 PM

ok, correct me if I'm missing somethings, but here are my wishes

Character generation: The character node was a grate start, maybe more tools in this vein? An auto-character generator, with a professional setup, possibly in different flavours for certain tasks. Ideally this tool would creat a proxy bone setup during generation that would allow you to pose the character within your mesh, so you could easily set the arms to the correct length etc. When finished you would hit GENERATE and it would create the rig, with appropriate IK, rotation locks, and animation helpers. Due to standardistion of this rig, it could also come with GUI generators for fingers (would create a macro-script), and also with tools to copy animation from one limb to another (like character studio). Actually maybe that could be an extension of the character node...... Of course people will always want more with this system, but it would be a great fast start...

Sticky Viewport labels: the toolstips you see when you hover over an object, but always visible. turned on and off in object properties.

Node based material editor in addition to medit. Medit is fine for most materials, but a schematic would be usedull for some hardcore materials. (I'll post my mockup later today)

A bias for connect, i.e. where at its start and end does it connect the two edges, as seen in XSI

A real layer system as seen in other apps. Allowing easy management of layers, and the layers having usefull properties for them. i.e. renderable, non renderable, hidden, frozen, frozen locked (unfreeze all does not unfreeze objects set as frozem locked), same goes for hide in fact. Also all commands in the layers system should be held in a config file, so you can go in and replace functionality with other renderers (i.e. Brazil/Vray/FR/MR). Allowing custom render layer setups etc

A scene explorer, as seen as outliner in Maya and explorer in XSI...

A util script for the texture baker, allowing for instance baking quality based on a viewpoint. Uses a gizmo like an omni light, objects closer to the gizmo center get higher res baked textures than those farther away...

better control for shadow maps, i.e the ability to render out and re-use shadows, plus omni lights having six shadows (one for each direction) allowing controll of each directions shadow (on off, quality)

The tape helpers measure distance should be useable by scripts/expressions

Scripted controllers should execute during interaction, not just when there is a timelime change (XSI does this)

Much more comprehesive echoing of commands to the maxscript listener. By far th best way to learn maxscript, also a great way to see real maxscript command syntax. At the momment, there are just too many features which have no outpunt here. Also when executed for the output not to go to the same window as the command.

A more sensible expression editor GUI i.e. a long expression window etc

More work on opening max up as much as possible to scripting, great work so far, more of the same please (big time)

anyway, enough for now

Chris Thomas
www.christopher-thomas.net

martinc

09-23-2002, 01:41 PM

>>Scripted controllers should execute during interaction, not just when there is a timelime change (XSI does this)

Hey Chris. You can already do this. All you have to do is add DependsOn $Sphere01 for example at the top of the script controller. $Sphere01 in this case is what is affecting the script controlled object. This has actually been in Max since r4! :)

Martin

Gonzo The Great

09-23-2002, 02:10 PM

If I remember correctly 3D Studio DOS R4 (possibly previous versions too... don't know... didn't have them... I started with 4)
was MODULE Based.

When I first jumped into 3DSMAX R2, I was very disappointed/uncomfortable with the big fat switchable 'Animate' button.

Now that I'm up to speed and pretty much fluent in R4 (getting 5 soon) I understand why Kinetix did that in MAX R1 and onwards, but I still don't like it.

MODULARISATION is an important thing in regards to a faster pipeline.

The MODEL, ANIMATION, IK, MATTER, RENDER, (and the last I can't remember) modules of the DOS version should be re-introduced, but Discreet will see such a move as weak in view of their rivals, AW, Avid and Newtek.

I would like to see otherwise but it appears they don't like 'change'.

Eg. The 'Object', 'Shapes', 'Modify' etc. panels are still there and roughly the same!

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I'd like to see....

1) Modules: Model - Sets (Props and Environment Optimised for the STATIC geometry in the Scene)

Model - Character (Polygon, Patch, Mesh, Nurbs)
Model - Character Dynamics (Hair Design, Cloth Design, etc)
Model - SFX (Particle Systems, Fluid Systems, Combustion Systems, Atmosphere, etc)

Rigging - Character (IK, FK, Skin/Flex Mod. Enveloping etc)
Rigging - Dynamics (Hair, Cloth Custom behaviour etc)

Material Editor - keep the old version for a quick adjuster but a new Full-Screen complex one. The selected OpenGL object is centred in the middle of the controls and other tools. On the same page is a smaller Active Shade box. Within this new Material-Editor (in another page) is a 2D Paint program with Obit control (perhaps with the link to Discreet Combustion).

Animation - Character Animation with Char. Studio
Animation - " " with Max Bones, Splines and Boxes)
Animation - " " with [ insert plugin here]
Animation - Motion Capture Manipulation (alternative to CS)

Render - Environment Setup
Render - Atmosphere Setup
Render - Layer Composite Manager (pre-Combustion)
Render - Style (VideoPost, 2D filters, Entire Scene Shaders)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2) The "Unit" measurements are F$%^&ing ridiculous. So Automatic Settings for some tools and effects, like Global Illumination Volume, Measurement of Light and strength of light, Character Studio and it's footstep driven system, Dust particles, Fire flames and their speed, Rain and it's speed, differenciating between Ocean water and a drop of water, etc., all are so out of wack with/against each other its cancerous to the program.

Instead create a system based on the Metric system only - millimetres, kilometers etc. as this is what most Building construction is planned in. People ignore the measure too much and it results in damaging results. i.e. sometimes CS footstep animated character slides around alot when scaled down. It can be fixed, but it shouldn't happen in the first place. Every physics-based system (and characters) should be set to a real life mold, similar to the Sunlight System.
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3) A "2D Lightbox" should be available when Animating. When the animator has finished his/her first animation pass and now wants to refine the character's poses, the user uses their graphics tablet and pen (I guess a good mouse too) and hold down the SPACEBAR and draw a thumbnail directly over the geometry. This 50% opaque 2D drawing remains until the user move the time-slider and redraws another at the current time. This is an extention to the Viewport Background.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
4) One last thing: An entire Frame NPR shader. After a rough fast render to be used as a guide, the user a paint like Photoshop via Tablet n Pen on every key frame. Eg. Rough pastels on Frame 0, drag the time-slider to frame 100, brush a oil-paint effect. Add a noise mod., change the bezier curve and when it comes time to render, Planular-Project the new images on the geometry and use them as either a mix of the original and the new, or entirely the new.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. The term "Material" should be renamed "Shader" too.

Gonzo The Great

09-23-2002, 02:20 PM

"why Kinetix did that in MAX R1 and onwards"

sorry I meant "why Autodesk did th........."

--------------------------------------------

One last thing.... A File/Scene Manager that opens when you load the program like Soft 3D and XSI.

And an quick File Opener from the File Menu... like..

FILE EDIT TOOLS GROUP VIEW CREATE
|
|
\---> SEQUENCE
|
|
\---> 1
2 -----> SCENE
3 |
4 |
5 \-----> 1 --- Seq2_Sc_1_BG.max

Chris Thomas

09-23-2002, 02:22 PM

"MODULARISATION is an important thing in regards to a faster pipeline"

"2) The "Unit" measurements are F$%^&ing ridiculous. "

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
P.S. The term "Material" should be renamed "Shader" too. [/B]

personally I prefere the system the way it is, I'm all for sensible menu's for set features (like characters) but apart from that I prefere the system open. If you wanna customise it for character rigging or modelling, you can....

Units, yeah, total Ar£e, how can a CG program have Imperial measurements, better off with one unit, and it is to you what you want it to be (mm,cm,m)

Materials to be called shaders, why?

Chris Thomas
www.christopher-thomas.net

KiboOst

09-23-2002, 03:49 PM

About modularisation Yeah I don't want this, I so far prefer the actual way ! I do model/map/rigging etc and no problem. If you are very specialized, customize your max. That's exactly what I hate into lw and don't like at all into maya.

my 2cent

Kib

BrandonD

09-23-2002, 06:15 PM

Dr-spline

09-23-2002, 06:40 PM

Gonzo The Great
i like the way you think, you should call discreet

BrandonD

09-23-2002, 06:54 PM

By 2D Lightbox, are you talking about custom Ghosting?

xynaria

09-23-2002, 07:39 PM

AA to have adaptive superampling adustable by material or object.
Better support for HDRI
Native handling of the .obj format.. I know Habware do an excellent plug in but why is Max so against supporting this file format
Ability to specify that vertex numbering be static...i.e .. once a vertex is assigned a number.. it keeps that number.. this would retain selection sets during editing and make for far easier morph target creation (in theory anyway)
Morph targets to be created only using info changed a la Mirai
Vertices/edges/faces selected to be displayed somewhere static i.e. viewport for instance, and not inanely on a scrolling panel .. DOH!!!!!!!!
Ability to hide sub object selections in render
Whole interface and concept of could do with a rethink IMHO, but I guess most can configure their way out of the default car crash scenario.
A hugely improved particle system.
Nurbs.. to be redone and rethought or the option to buy modular versions.. (see below)
Linux version.. no real excuse for their not to be one.
The ability for Discreet to stop 'cobbling' as they do.... a good example of this is the ink and paint shader which I'm led to believe is pretty much an earlier Blur script. No offence to the guys at Blur but it is a joke speed wise and why not have spent the time developing something more usable for the R5 release.... which leads me on to them including volumetric shaders and revamping the nurbs.... only if they did the job well. From what I've heard about the GI solutions in R5 they are slow. .. in comparison to the increasing amount of alternatives.. a trend that hopefully won't be the norm.
Modulations
As others have stated a more modular approach would be welcomed by some. When Max entered the fray it was comparitevely well priced. Now that is very debateable with few bar Discreet feeling that it still is. The main reason I would like to offer modular versions is purely that a lot of it's own tools just don't cut the mustard and it's ridiculous to have to pay again for a plugin to do something that Max is supposed to or should offer in the first place. I've always like Maxon for offering cut down versions of C4D that were more affordable for people and that could be used and accquired as needed. With Plasma, Discreet had the perfect opportunity to produce a cut down Max but instead went to great pains to make sure that it wasn't by making sure that Plasma and Max can't talk properly to each other and the only reason I can think of is that they haven't got the confidence in their product to believe that people wouldn't just buy Plasma instead of Max rather than pay for something they wouldn't use a lot of either because they didn't need it or it was crap in the first place. That to my mind is cynicism well beyond the acceptable in a company of their stature and resources.
So.. until the mooted rewrite can we also please have an error alert saying.. 'sorry but Max is about to corrupt all the files in your current folder.. are you sure you want to continue'......before it does the dirty. :)

Chris Thomas

09-23-2002, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by martinc
>>Scripted controllers should execute during interaction, not just when there is a timelime change (XSI does this)

Hey Chris. You can already do this. All you have to do is add DependsOn $Sphere01 for example at the top of the script controller. $Sphere01 in this case is what is affecting the script controlled object. This has actually been in Max since r4! :)

Martin

So it does, cheers :)

Chris Thomas

ilasolomon

09-24-2002, 12:24 AM

Ability to hide sub object selections in render

aah!, i liked this feature in old grandpaa of max (3D Studio) & i
used to using it very often! 3d studio had very good features
that they disapeared in max (like freehand shape draw)

Bobo

09-24-2002, 01:09 AM

Originally posted by ila_solomon
aah!, i liked this feature in old grandpaa of max (3D Studio) & i
used to using it very often! 3d studio had very good features
that they disapeared in max (like freehand shape draw)

Scriptable! :)
(I had a version for R2.5 four years ago, a simplified version ships as a tutorial in the max 5 MAXScript Online Help with complete comments)

Gonzo The Great

09-24-2002, 01:36 AM

jmonkey2000:

If you are a personal user of the program then I can see your point? But when you in a studio-based environment when co-workers are specifically assigned titles as in "Modeller", "Technical Director (Character Rigger)", "Animator", "Lighter" and "Shader" and "Render Assistant" gimp, then these are totally neccessary.

And when I said Customising... I meant when you pick your Module, say Animation - Character, I meant all the stupid little Link Buttons, Assign SpaceWarp, Modelling feature sets, a modify list without any "UVW Map" or Physique options sitting in there because your animating, not Rigging or applying shaders, so why should you be able to see that crap?

--------------

Units, yeah, total Ar£e, how can a CG program have Imperial measurements, better off with one unit, and it is to you what you want it to be (mm,cm,m)

How big is a dust particle in your typical scene? I've never seen one 2 feet big. Sure... In that case your 6'2" tall Character could be then be 1000 feet tall, right, how does the renderer know that? It doesn't. But in areas of Global Illumination, when you want proper colour bouncing and blending with adjacent angles, and especially when dealing with Photorealistic rendered crap you want the LIGHT settings to give the information... and not have to change the Render Dialogue box for stuff like Strength of Mix or whatever.

If an elongated Spherical-Deflector of 2 units long is running through a Plane with a Flex modifier and Softbody springs and weights, you have to labouriously change is settings (and sometimes animate those settings over time) to simulat the effect that the deflector is in fact simulating a boat moving through it and the plane is water. When the user wants fast results, the software doesn't and shouldn't need to question the INITIAL behaviour of the plane/water if there was a single set measurement system.

Nasa - an American bunch of guys too, for example, see the benefits of using the Metric system when they calculate distance. Distance that is insanely small and insanely far away. As do architects and draftsmen.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Materials to be called shaders, why?
Because in Maxscript the term Shader is used.
Maya, Softimage 3D, XSI all use them.
Alot a 3rd Party Renderer languages use them.
Renderman/BMRT w/MaxMan, MentalRay, Brazil (and Slutterfish note this fact too)...................

********************************

Why should I pay lots for a package that I only use half the tools for?

Exactly

**********************************
Gonzo The Great - I like the way you think

Yeah.... me too!

************************************
Better support for HDRI

Native handling of the .obj format

Linux version.. no real excuse for their not to be one.

Yes. Yes. And DEFINATELY

dvornik

09-24-2002, 01:38 AM

Originally posted by Bobo
Scriptable! :)

How about the extrude gizmo? You should see it man, it really kicks ass.

Gonzo The Great

09-24-2002, 01:59 AM

I forgot...

By 2D Lightbox, are you talking about custom Ghosting?

No. Ghosting is what you've ALREADY done. The lightbox thing is for what you want to do. Your drawing is simply like a Photoshop Layer with 50% or whatever transparency and the Maximised Camera Viewport is like the Opaque Photoshop Background Layer. Useful if your CG animation is "stiff" and you would like to see how you would do it as a "looser" drawn thing.

Another thing it would be useful for is to better blend Foreground Hand Drawn Animation/Live Action Plate with Alpha over CG midground. Hand Drawn is done after CG I know, but out of sync 2D elements can be fixed again in a simple camera move or jilt.

The Background Viewport is of course only good for... the Background.

I am scripting this thing at the moment.

googlo

09-24-2002, 02:47 AM

When I was talking about modules I was talking about add on features sort of like how Maya used to have Maya FX and Maya Power Modeler. It just assumes most people won't need everything rolled into one. Why should I pay lots for a package that I only use half the tools for?

I kind of have always viewed Max as already being that via third party plug-ins.

I think the main reason why Discreet doesn't upgrade everything as effectively as everyone would like is expressly due to the fact that it seems to have been designed for third party plug-in expandability. If they made all of the improvements that everyone wants here, a lot of third party plug-in makers wouldnt' really have a reason for being.

Someties I've wonder if this will end up bieing a limiting factor for Max. Like the makers of Discreet either have to let go of the idea of third party plug-in people and just develop the package as more complete and update to date all in one package or hang on with just modifying Max enough to keep most people happy and if those people want more advanced or expensive features included with their Max software, they can just buy the plug-ins they need as they need or can afford to get them.

Also, this in my opinion is a indirect strength for max too because I really believe that a company devoted to making a plug-in that specifically attacks a certain aspect of 3dcgi, like a renderer, is going to have a better and more refined product than a software company that tries to combine every single possible new and upgradeable feature that rolls out with each iteration of the software and evolution of the this industry in general.

It's like the plug-in people can focus more fiercely and directly with the aspect that their plug-n addresses than a say Discreet could by trying to make a general package that tries to address everything continuously.

ToddD

09-24-2002, 04:46 AM

I'd like to see an addition to the end user agreement that forbids speculating on what features version 12 will have!:) :) :) :)
J/K guys!!!! Some interesting Ideas!

derelict

09-24-2002, 05:30 AM

I wish MAX and all the 3D software out there to stop making it more easy, plain and simple. I wish it is a software that is difficult to comprehand likewise all the other 3d software out there!

I wish it is a software that requires a learning curve that is equal to that of one becoming a doctor! I wish people will be put out with the difficulty of churning out materials of any good UNLESS they are educated in'em.

there i said it! I just couldn't help myself there. :)

Somehow during client confrontation there will be a puss that will sour the whole deal because he/she could churn out something by just pressing a button (and guess what, that is all that person know) and he/she will brag on how easy it is to use it! Alas the pricing!! So, hope software will be just like houdini!

...please make the software for pro and not a toy where suits could dictate what is difficult?

TQ

Chris Thomas

09-24-2002, 10:10 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Gonzo The Great
[B]jmonkey2000:

"If you are a personal user of the program then I can see your point? But when you in a studio-based environment when co-workers are specifically assigned titles as in "Modeller", "Technical Director (Character Rigger)", "Animator", "Lighter" and "Shader" and "Render Assistant" gimp, then these are totally neccessary."
[\QUOTE]

I'm a personal user and I have been in a studio environment, I was a department head on a 65 episode TV series, I was a lighting lead on the world cup animated TV series, and now i'm working on a CG film.
I've used 'max' since 3DStudio dos v1.0, when it was modular, it was ok then but I feel an open system as it is now is better. Maybe you have a case for Max 'skins' where features are removed that are not needed. This would be better as you could switch skins as needed. And if your studio needs its own custom skins, then you could make them and distribute them....

Yeah, units are basicly metric and you can make of them what you will, mind you if you get your project scale 'wrong' and it causes you problems, thats yer own fault.

And the name Shaders? should we rename the medit to hypershade? or rendertree, and the dope sheet? WSM? etc etc.
Shader is a name to describe a concept (a non real world concept, like shaders can displace to create tree's in renderman) Max's name is just as innacurate as shader, we all know what a shader is and what a material is....... not really a wishlist item I think....

Chris Thomas

Dr-spline

09-24-2002, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by derelict
I wish MAX and all the 3D software out there to stop making it more easy, plain and simple. I wish it is a software that is difficult to comprehand likewise all the other 3d software out there!

I wish it is a software that requires a learning curve that is equal to that of one becoming a doctor! I wish people will be put out with the difficulty of churning out materials of any good UNLESS they are educated in'em.

there i said it! I just couldn't help myself there. :)

Somehow during client confrontation there will be a puss that will sour the whole deal because he/she could churn out something by just pressing a button (and guess what, that is all that person know) and he/she will brag on how easy it is to use it! Alas the pricing!! So, hope software will be just like houdini!

...please make the software for pro and not a toy where suits could dictate what is difficult?

TQ

Why would you want software to be harder, say an industry such as capcon(named changed for legal reason) wanted to switch from maya to xsi. If xsi had the absolute perfect tools for the job but has insanly hard to learn then why would the company buy it? I do understand where you come from having every 14 year old kid using programs they learned solely of the internet, but that still doesnt make up for it.

Gonzo The Great

09-25-2002, 01:01 AM

But its a contraction to areas of Maxscript.

I was around co-workers who set aside 3 weeks of their normal job to create a set shaders for max needed for a new project. Some of them new to Max programming and they also found it stupid, as is this debate.

I originally hated the term 'shaders'! but lets not go there :p

Dr-spline

09-25-2002, 01:26 AM

I asume you mean as you directly said about the shader debate being stupid and not this thread. I find that even if discreet only uses 1 good idea here itll be worth it.

derelict

09-25-2002, 01:36 AM

Dr-spline try to understand where i'm coming from. As i said, why not make it houdini style packages. The software do not get flame for its difficulty..infact it is one of the easy packages out there if one have a programming bg. NOw that is one package that no simple joe would be cought dead with. :)

I do understand about churning things as fast as possible but those packages are not really helping the industry. Just look at the earnings from the 90's and compare that now.

Anyway this thread is a wish list thread, am i right? So, THAT was my wish. Period.

Ps/ if the package company plans to make it easy..make it script easy.

xynaria

09-25-2002, 02:08 AM

Surely the sign of something good is that primarily it is usable.. from the base to the depths.. i.e extensibilty. At the moment Max is and .. er.. isn't. :D

Another one:

Abilty to affect pivot only on sub object selections.. that would be really useful. :)

visualboo

09-25-2002, 02:38 AM

FINALLY, I just found a soft selection falloff manip script (say that 5 times fast :) ). I've been asking everybody I know for this for....... forever.

Not exactly perfect but (still want one like XSI) but I'm not complaining. :)

THANKS Martin :thumbsup:

martinc

09-25-2002, 02:42 AM

No problem. :)

You should also check out all of Bobo's manipulator scripts. I use them all the time.

Martin

gundog

09-25-2002, 03:11 AM

'Abilty to affect pivot only on sub object selections.. that would be really useful'

i'm guessing that you'd want this function so you could perform subobject scaling or rotation from a given point. if that's what you're looking to do, you can do this in max by using 3d snap and applying the transform from any 3d snap that you have highlighted.
also, make sure you're not using 'use pivot point center'

xynaria

09-25-2002, 03:25 AM

You are guessing perfectly correctly Gundog :).......I've just tried using snaps however to do this and am not able to get it to work that way.
A good example.. I have a character figure and I sub object select the arm which in an ideal world I would like to rotate at the shoulder.....the pivot point locates around the hand so I have to rotate and then move the whole selection down to a point approximately where I would like it to be.. which is kinda messy. How would I use snaps in this scenario????? :)

dvornik

09-25-2002, 03:28 AM

Check the following thread for details. It works. Not like Mirai, but it's there, kind of:

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17969

Martin, your soft selection manipulator works great with shaded faces in max 5. Very good idea. I also appreciate your UVW relax tool. Thanks a lot.

Now, I'll just keep pushing my extrude manipulator agenda. I use Jozef tools that let you duplicate and either move or scale or rotate polys (3 separate tools). Now, if it duplicated polys and added an all-in-one gizmo it would be perfect.

xynaria

09-25-2002, 04:03 AM

Thanks v. much Dvornik..I'll try that tomorrow.. bed beckons. :)

Chris Thomas

09-25-2002, 10:28 AM

1 more

implement ring and loop (or row and column) selection in the UVunwrap editor, its usefull in polymesh, its usefull everywhere...

Chris Thomas

lildragon

09-25-2002, 11:57 AM

A new core ;)

salud,

Bobo

09-27-2002, 02:01 AM

Originally posted by dvornik
How about the extrude gizmo? You should see it man, it really kicks ass.

Haven't really seen theirs yet, but go and see mine ;)
http://www.scriptspot.com/bobo/darkmoon/bevelman/bevelMan_01.avi

You can download the current beta from:
http://www.scriptspot.com/bobo/darkmoon/bevelman

Dr-spline

09-27-2002, 06:47 AM

mabe a random modifier that does random things to random extents, after all true art is an expresion and what beter epresion that randomness. okay okay mabe nude jumproping in front of a court house... Now THATS fun! :thumbsup:

Gonzo The Great

10-01-2002, 12:48 AM

1 more:

A hidden instant Blue Screen of Death button in the top right when your boss walks past.

derelict

10-01-2002, 01:27 AM

Oh, are you good at director? just capture the death screen and place it in the prog and make an executable. that will get your instant death screen.:beer:

road

10-01-2002, 04:35 AM

All i care about is the damn OGL speeds....

They suck and may force my company to go to a different package...

Dr-spline

10-01-2002, 06:15 AM

:twisted: gonzo always has the best ideas! mabe with an error message "please turn off your computer and take a nap to fix the error"

xynaria

10-01-2002, 11:50 AM

Another one (if it doesn't already exist and I've missed it).

Abilty to type in overlay information on renderings..i.e settings etc and to load up a sequence in the viewer with the facility to fade between them (a la Lightwave.) :)

visualboo

10-01-2002, 04:29 PM

I agree with road. NEED OGL SPEED

but I want a bunch. ;) Blending modes in the material editor springs to mind... that would be cool.

Markus

10-01-2002, 07:34 PM

OGL definately needs to be adressed, but very often slowdowns are not related to OGL speed only.
For example all kind of object deformations are very CPU intensive and are very slow in max.
The same problem with IK. When you make a complex IK setup with lots of expressions and IK branches it becomes unuseable slow and unstable. That´s where apps like Maya or XSI don´t have any problem and that´s also a reason why these apps are preferred for highend stuff.
Parameter wireing is very weak and unstable. We had cases where we replaced all wirerings with expressions and everything was fine, but the expression interface is a pain. I don´t understand why discreet doesn´t use expressions for wireing.
When you have files that crash like crazy it could be wireing.
Why is epoly so slow? I always put an edit mesh on top and the viewport redraw becomes 3 times faster.
I don´t want many new features in the next release, I want the current tools work fast and reliable(and better particles, please).

Markus

bentllama

10-02-2002, 02:16 AM

All these suggestions are just trying to drive MAX more towards Maya [what they have been doing already:annoyed:]...

...WHY NOT JUST BITE THE BULLET AND USE MAYA?

[..and before I get redundant retorts that could start a flame war, sit back and think before you post...I am trying to ask a serious question here...What is stopping you from switching to Maya? [despite software loyalty]]

BrandonD

10-02-2002, 02:22 AM

Originally posted by bentllama
All these suggestions are just tring to drive MAX more towards Maya [what they have been doing already:annoyed:]...

...WHY NOT JUST BITE THE BULLET AND USE MAYA?

[..and before I get redundant retorts that could start a flame war, sit back and think before you post...I am trying to ask a serious question here...What is stopping you from switching to Maya? [despite software loyalty]]

There are plenty of reasons why Maya isn't the best tool sometimes. The same goes for Lightwave and MAX or any package for that reason. Your taunting post unfortunately is a common thing in the industry fed by ignorance. I think you'll find that MAX and Maya may have some things in common, but they are fundementally quite different. If you want to play the feature/feature game you're just wasting your time.

Get off your high horse and make cool stuff in whatever package you want. Really does it matter THAT much? By your rationale this should be a Maya-only industry, right? Boy that sure would suck - no options and no competition.

bentllama

10-02-2002, 02:44 AM

Originally posted by BrandonD
There are plenty of reasons why Maya isn't the best tool sometimes. The same goes for Lightwave and MAX or any package for that reason. Your taunting post unfortunately is a common thing in the industry fed by ignorance. I think you'll find that MAX and Maya may have some things in common, but they are fundementally quite different. If you want to play the feature/feature game you're just wasting your time.

Get off your high horse and make cool stuff in whatever package you want. Really does it matter THAT much? By your rationale this should be a Maya-only industry, right? Boy that sure would suck - no options and no competition.

It is true I am a Maya zealot, but by no means was I trying to instigate an aggressive feature to feature comparison. I happen to use Maya daily and MAX every now and then because both packages are in our production pipeline. I am trying to gain MAX users insight into the tools they hold on to MAX so dearly for...because I have to support both rationales at my workplace.
I do not want a Maya only industry...I happen to use Softimage too! :p

Instead of wasting your time trying to flame me [which I clearly stated in my prior post that a flame war was not my intent] why don't you put your fingers to your keyboard and give me your rhetoric on the topic.

I just took a look at your site too BradonD, you have some nice stuff, too bad you come off like a d!ck. :p

dvornik

10-02-2002, 03:06 AM

First of all the approach to interface design is radically different. I had a really hard time using a wacom or a trackball with Maya cause it's very hotkey and right-click oriented. I like max's ability to be customized to both right-click/shortcuts people and the onscreen palletes people. I don't really like to hold down 2 mouse buttons and a key to perform a zoom operation.

I also like the max plugins subculture, although Maya has one too.

I'm planning on taking a Maya course next semester so I may change my opinion when I learn more about it.

bentllama

10-02-2002, 03:08 AM

Thanks for your reply dvornik.

BrandonD

10-02-2002, 05:08 AM

I think I wouldn't have been as harsh with your post if your attitude hadn't been so "why don't you get real and use Maya?" I've had that attitude thrown around all too often in production down here in LA and it's lame. I think often it's based industry perception, something driven more by marketing, hype and ignorance.

The tools these days are becoming more of a personal preference issue than anything else these days, again putting the emphasis on the artist. MAX has a different procedural workflow that makes it well adapted for someone doing VFX that prefers that type of internal 3d pipeline. It also has some tools that Maya apparently doesn't. Case in point, I'm working on a film right now with several Maya effects artists. Now several months later and nearing completion, I've ended up doing nearly all of the effects animation elements (fire, smoke, steam, water, splashes, dynamic objects, etc) in our sequence by myself with MAX and one commercial plugin. The Maya team of three people has done less than 5 elements total.

Is it the tools? Is it the artist?

visualboo

10-02-2002, 05:15 AM

Nathan... :annoyed: ;)

There's TONS of reasons

1. Meshtools. btw, where do you think all those wonderfull CPS tools came from? Maya? :)

2. Brazil

3. Quads (personally I LOVE quads. Once you customize them, Max HAULS).

4. Free Plugins GALORE (www.maxplugins.de plus about a million other free sites)

5. Free Scripts GALORE (www.scriptspot.com plus about a million of those too)

6. Bobo :)

7. I just simply can't get the same results with any other 3d app as fast as I can with Max. It just the workflow I guess. It rocks

Believe me there's a lot more..... shall I continue?

You know... It kind of bugs me when people say max is copying maya. So what if a feature or two came from maya... they all copy good features off each other. If it's a good idea, it's a good idea. Period. I'm just gonna stop that one here cause I don't exactly want to start talking about feature after feature.

btw, I have absolutely no beef what so ever with any 3d app (except LW just a little but just because of CIM. And maybe because they whole community acts like "old school" Mac users. :) Closed minded
I just find that I can get stuff done faster and better with max and we all know that's important in this industry. If that ever changes.... I'll change my app.

edit: 8. Max users don't post a million threads in the max forum about how someone is awesome or how it's a good.... ahh, nevermind. I'll shut up now. ahh, what the heck.... just to get the post count up. Then post a thread about how Massive (not a software plug :) ) the Max post count is and how great the community must be. Bah!

Sorry everybody, I really am a nice guy. I swear

derelict

10-02-2002, 05:16 AM

I've ended up doing nearly all of the effects animation elements (fire, smoke, steam, water, splashes, dynamic objects, etc) in our sequence by myself with MAX and one commercial plugin. The Maya team of three people has done less than 5 elements total.

And your boss still pay them salary? Maybe they know how to kiss your bosses booty...

Would make a wager that at the end of it they will say Maya did all those stuff...as always.:annoyed:

visualboo

10-02-2002, 05:33 AM

ok, so my last post got a little side tracked :) I like Maya actually.

Sorry Nathan :D

bentllama

10-02-2002, 05:54 AM

Thanks for the replies BrandonD and "Boo Boo" :)

It brings me closer to understanding how to better deal with a mixed pipeline situation at work...

[and it was never about "get real and use Maya"]

BrandonD

10-02-2002, 05:57 AM

Actually, that's where you'll find a big flaw with MAX - pipeline integration. The binary .max file is procedural and very much a closed format (ie no one can read or write to it but MAX). This has made integrating MAX into a multiplatform environment quite tricky.

bentllama

10-02-2002, 06:03 AM

Originally posted by BrandonD
Actually, that's where you'll find a big flaw with MAX - pipeline integration. The binary .max file is procedural and very much a closed format (ie no one can read or write to it but MAX). This has made integrating MAX into a multiplatform environment quite tricky.

Tell me about it!

I am switching the entire animation pipeline over to Maya [it was MAX/CS before I started work there] and I needed to transfer data to Maya in case it was to be re-used... a nightmare... especially when dealing with the crap that CS throws at you [crappy animation transform data, etc]...

...and MAX script is totally foreign and does not resemble MEL or C++... I am glad that there are reports that they are changing it...

googlo

10-02-2002, 06:10 AM

and MAX script is totally foreign and does not resemble MEL or C++... I am glad that there are reports that they are changing it...

Is it supposed too?.. That's one of Maxscripts high points is that it DOESN'T resemble C++, that is one the biggest reasons it was developed so people wouldn't have to know C++ syntax to use it. At least that's what I thought .

Weren't you just complaining that Max changes itself too much to be like other programs?..

What's up?

I don't think you realize it benllama, but you are coming off as someone who is acting sincere and earnest but with more confrontational hidden motives. Like you say you want to know for what reasons people use Max over Maya, but then you say you aren't trying to start a fierce feature-to-feature battle (which is impossible to do because that IS what sets one software apart from the other). And you then you called Brandon a dick for responding to your attitude? You should apologize.. It's very disrespectful :hmm:

especially when dealing with the crap that CS throws at you [crappy animation transform data, etc]...

This is what I mean. What if I said (because I like Max).. "yeah, it's been rough having to deal with the shitty way Maya compiles a character rig (shitty format) together, and transfering it for use in Max's new character assembly format." And saying that in a Maya forum no less.

Do you work alone or something and not interact with people? It seems like you have no sense of social peopleness (<- i don't think that's a real word :) ).

visualboo

10-02-2002, 06:30 AM

Bent: Your awake :surprised It's late man

Get some sleepy :D

EDIT: Uhhh oh!
EDIT numba 2: That first edit was for the last post :D

visualboo

10-02-2002, 06:34 AM

On Bentllama's side, Even tho Max 5 is HEAPS better than previous versions as far as animation goes... I still believe that maya has a pretty good advantage in that department.

martinc

10-02-2002, 06:37 AM

bentllama

10-02-2002, 06:42 AM

Hey visualboo, should I show googlo my "people" skills? :annoyed:

I do retract my d!ck comment to BrandonD because he was nice enough to follow up with some contructive posts... I appreciate that...

googlo, I do not have the time nor the diction to waste on you anymore...

...let's get this thread back to what it was originally about:

What features would you like to see in MAX 6?

bentllama

10-02-2002, 06:49 AM

Originally posted by visualboo
On Bentllama's side, Even tho Max 5 is HEAPS better than previous versions as far as animation goes... I still believe that maya has a pretty good advantage in that department.

MAX is making great headway on the animation side of things. I can't wait to try it out...

...especially the "draw aniamtion curve" tool thingy...[I want to see if it is a gimmick or has a good place in production] :)

I hope they continue with the animation changes in 6.

dvornik

10-02-2002, 07:00 AM

Come to think of it a better wiring editor would be a good idea. Sorry if it's off-topic.

googlo

10-02-2002, 07:15 AM

googlo, I do not have the time nor the diction to waste on you anymore...

You never started.. See, you aren't really thinking about what you are saying dude.

What I would like to see in Max is something like ThinkingParticles
and the ability to transfer data between different types of objects interactively, like if I have a falloff map with shadow/light on an object and the light is shining on it, have that info be transferred into the map slot of the displace modifier. That kind of like general data transfer and interactivity between things, I guess that would more like interactive procedural control of things.

AnimBot

10-02-2002, 08:08 AM

I would really love the animation layering ability of Character Studio in Max's native
bones set. Also I would like the Seamles blending,and interaction of IK and FK like CS as well. Basically I want discreet to ditch CS while intergrating some of it's functionality into Max's already existing character animation tools.

bentllama

10-02-2002, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by googlo
You never started.. See, you aren't really thinking about what you are saying dude.

*sigh*

[hold me back visualboo...hold me back...]

:rolleyes: :) :rolleyes:

bentllama

10-02-2002, 09:18 AM

Originally posted by AnimBot
I would really love the animation layering ability of Character Studio in Max's native
bones set. Also I would like the Seamles blending,and interaction of IK and FK like CS as well. Basically I want discreet to ditch CS while intergrating some of it's functionality into Max's already existing character animation tools.

The layering was one unique CS function I enjoyed too Animbot.

SlipKorn

10-02-2002, 09:39 AM

It's okay, bent. We still love you.

~sk

BrandonD

10-02-2002, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by bentllama
The layering was one unique CS function I enjoyed too Animbot.

It's a shame CS has always been dumped on by the community at large. It had many groundbreaking features before others adopted them. In particular, dynamic IK/FK and non-linear animation (motion flow). When they added layering to this you essentially got Filmbox for under $1500. You could edit/work with motion capture in a very simple and powerful way. Now this hasn't come without its own headaches, like lack of function curve support, Biped not communicating to the rest of MAX properly, or issues with Physique. But at the same time, many of the issues get addressed with each release (like any good app).

I never really understood the function curve issue until I actually talked to Michael Girard (CS developer and author of the first paper on IK). He made it very clear that Quaternion rotation is the most reliable but unfortunately the most difficult to visualize in a 3-axis curve. I think other packages have added a quaternion visualization method, but I suspect it's just Euler conversion. So I guess he spent a long time coming up with a solution and if you've seen CS4 demonstrated, then you know what I'm talking about. Of course he has a habit of not just adding the base feature but almost going overboard by adding all kinds of related tools.

Still I'm not going to say CS is THE character tool. It's a character animation system that fills a specific need and while it's going to be better at some things than others, it will fall short too. However I still think there's some genius in its design, one that's constantly overlooked.

visualboo

10-02-2002, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by bentllama
*sigh*

[hold me back visualboo...hold me back...]

:rolleyes: :) :rolleyes:
hahaha.... :wip: on the head. :D

martinc: oh man, too tired right now to type all that. I agree with XSI also. Both of those packages are strong with character anim. Very strong.

Dr-spline

10-02-2002, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by visualboo
hahaha.... :wip: on the head. :D

martinc: oh man, too tired right now to type all that. I agree with XSI also. Both of those packages are strong with character anim. Very strong.

yea i love how you can morph from one character into another with so much ease, even move into other walkcycles. max needs that.
Id like control on primitives to make the u and v illiterations diffrent like in maya and xsi.
How about a plugin to your head that models what ever you think.(thats a scary thought)

BrandonD

10-02-2002, 09:03 PM

Originally posted by Dr-spline
yea i love how you can morph from one character into another with so much ease, even move into other walkcycles. max needs that.

You've been able to do this with CS for years.

martinc

10-03-2002, 02:59 AM

Are you talking about sharing animation between different characters? If so, I agree, XSI has some smooth ways of bringing in the data. Softimage has always been king of animation, and they are doing a great job of staying that way.

I, however, don't think it's as good as CS. With CS you can have a different heirarchy (ie, 4 bones in the legs instead of 3, or 1 spine bone instead of however many). With XSI, the heirarchy has to be the same.

On the other hand, CS is a closed system, so it's not as flexible as building you own system.

I did get to take a good look at CS4 at Siggraph, and I think more people will be excited than before. I saw that they are sporting curves now! They also have a nice NLA system and you can even customize the biped by adding regular Max bones and still save it out as a .bip file. It looks like they listened to the users.

BrandonD

10-03-2002, 03:37 AM

Actually the NLA system has been in there since Release 2 as Motion Flow. It's a fully functioning NLA system using a schematic approach. CS4 that was demonstrated at SIGGRAPH builds on that foundation and adds the more popular video editing NLA paradigm. They've also added the ability to use only pieces of animation based on body parts, so in effect you can blend the motion of just the hands from one file in with just the right leg of another file. And since CS is partially physics based with proper balastic tension, they've added a way to balance the affect multiple unlike animation blended together do to a character's spine and gait.

martinc

10-03-2002, 03:51 AM

Your right Brandon. I forgot about the Motion Flow.

The NEW NLA system:) also has cool things like time warping. Even though CS has had some pretty kick ass stuff in it, I have never been compelled to get it. Now I think I'm going to. I was tempted with the crowd system before, but now the temptation is getting heavy.

BTW, it was great partaking in frosted beverage consumption with you at Siggraph.

Martin

AnimBot

10-03-2002, 04:43 AM

Brandon D I agree with you Character Studio does have some great tools. I've been using it since version 2 and at work I use it on a daily bases. I have to say For all the good things it has there are so many little annoyances that add up to the point where I almost hate it. I'll give you an example. Motion flow, the first time I'd used it I thought it was great I'd never even heard of non linear animation and I could pull off some pretty cool things with it. That was at school I then got a chance to use it for the first time in production at work. Motion flow proved to be amazingly unstable. If you try setting up more than 6 or so bip files strange things start to happen with rotation. Let alone the 50 clips I had to throw together. Luckily I knew how to use the tools provided to work around the rotation. However using the tools is very tedious and time consuming. Needles to say it would be better if the problem didn't exist. Unfortunately a slew of other very strange bugs poped up the more clips I added on. A few months down the line a co worker ran into the exact same problems I did. Around the same time right here on the max forums someone was having the same issues we were all having. I called discreet and posted on the boards but no one had an answer for what was wrong strange. Basically I lost weeks of work and had to start from scratch. So in my experience motion flow was pretty much unusable. Some other beefs I have with CS are customizability, lack of function curves!!! and the com being seperated into 3 different tracks. Now that last one may not sound like a big deal but I do animation for games where there is alot copying base poses to start off an animation. It gets incredibly annoying when I have to copy the same keys four times in a row because of these seperated tracks. By the way if anyone knows a way around this I would really apreciate it. The other thing that bugs me is that I've always had the feeling that discreet/kinetix were holding out on developing better animation tools for max because of CS.
I don't know of any studio that does character animation with max that does not also use Character Studio. Why should discreet develop Max's own animation tools if they could put them into CS and sell a bunch of copies? There's a few more issues I have with the program but I think I've ranted enough. In all fairness I think CS really does have some good tools, and it's really fast to set up. However again I would prefer them ditching CS and throwing that good stuff into Max itself. It's wishfull thinking but oh well.

martinc

10-03-2002, 04:54 AM

AnimBot, have you looked at Max 4 and 5? There is a slew of new animation stuff in both releases. Max5 was mostly animation improvements. Max5 is very nice for character animation. Where I work, we have a couple of games in developement currently. For one we are using standard max tools and CS for the other. The main reason we chose to go with CS is because we were planning on using quite a bit of mocap. That is really the only reason.

We haven't had any problems animating with custom rigs built in max.

AnimBot

10-03-2002, 08:22 PM

martinc we use max 4 here at work and I've been messing around with max 5. My criticism isn't with max's native animation tools I think they are doing agreat job at making it a better animation program. My issue is strictly with CS. I prefer to use Max bones and IK over CS anyday. CS4 does look like it's going to be a big improvement I'm glad they are responding to the current issues with the pogram. Still though wouldn't you prefer to have the functionality within max without having to deal with any of the constraints of CS?

Xilica

10-03-2002, 08:56 PM

Allow Transparent backgrounds when rendering a still!!!

googlo

10-03-2002, 09:06 PM

xilica

The background does render as transparent by default, maybe you have a setting on somewhere or map in the back ground with ti's own alpha channel messing things up?

visualboo

10-03-2002, 11:51 PM

xilica: Save images as a .tif, .tga or something similar. They have alpha channels.

If you save as a jpg your SOL

derelict

10-04-2002, 01:48 AM

Oh, boy nearly forgot...donno what was i thinkin'

Make MAX less than a thousand bucks!:beer:

Dr-spline

10-04-2002, 01:55 AM

yea, it would be nice to be cheaper for those of us who are freelance 3d artists

xynaria

10-04-2002, 02:19 AM

Don't worry.. it never will be.. Di$creet are the only company not to notice that every other 3D company has dropped it's prices in the last 3 years and they don't like their hegenomy on error messages to come cheap :p

martinc

10-04-2002, 02:38 AM

I know people are probably going to slam me on this, but I'll say it anyway..:)

I am glad that they stood with their price. The reason being is that I would rather more money go into developement, thus making a better product than to spend less money and have small updates. Our industry isn't that big, and the technology behind what we use isn't easy to just whip out.

I have a copy of Max at home and at work. I pay for the one at home, of course. I rarely do any freelance, but in one simple job I can pay for the upgrade. I hope that if you are paying for it, that you are making enough money that you could spend 900 bucks on the tool that is giving you a career.

Martin

Dr-spline

10-04-2002, 03:19 AM

well if there gonna charge as much as they do they really need to make alot more inprovments then they do

martinc

10-04-2002, 03:43 AM

What do you consider a good upgrade? Reactor alone is worth the money, IMO. Do you think any other package has more improvements per release?

Martin

BrandonD

10-04-2002, 03:45 AM

Originally posted by xynaria
Don't worry.. it never will be.. Di$creet are the only company not to notice that every other 3D company has dropped it's prices in the last 3 years and they don't like their hegenomy on error messages to come cheap :p

The one difference being that 3D Studio has always been the same price, since 1991. Alias, Softimage, etc were MUCH more and come down in price (with the exception of Lightwave). I think this is why the desktop market helped push the price issue.

derelict

10-04-2002, 03:46 AM

Helo martinC,

I am glad that they stood with their price. The reason being is that I would rather more money go into developement, thus making a better product than to spend less money and have small updates. Our industry isn't that big, and the technology behind what we use isn't easy to just whip out.

over 100,000 registered users x 4 grand = $400,000,000 per year on a package give or take. Cream that off to all the employees and service guys and gas and such they will have $300,000,000 left. Do they really need that much for r&d?

Funny, people like Bobo, Ravi, Frank, blur and many more don't even ask a cent for all those kwel stuff they made handy. Do you think they should charge us for consultation fee or charge us money for scripts too? So, when is it too much?

I have a copy of Max at home and at work. I pay for the one at home, of course. I rarely do any freelance, but in one simple job I can pay for the upgrade. I hope that if you are paying for it, that you are making enough money that you could spend 900 bucks on the tool that is giving you a career.

So, your justification for art is "if you have the moolah you can use MAX, if you don't have it...TOO BAD!" is that it? Might it not be better for all artist to be able to affort it wether you're from the united states or from uganda where the price is a lifetimes earning? Go across the courseway to Malaysia the package cost 15 thousand ringgit... oh, one earns about 2 thousand ringgit in avarage there (FYI, the country is known to be one of the richest country in South east asia).

No wonder there are so many sites to download warez on the net. You may think them crooks or pirates but to those who could not affort it in their lifetime... they are robinhood.

Might it not be better for more people to have access to MAX and still be the number one developer of 3d aps out there? take for example Flash, Dreamweaver or photoshop - the price is reasonable and you have 100 times more converts.

Oh, i do fantastic flying logos. Can you share with me your contacts? It is kinda dead here with the 911 glut.

I could go to say martinC is a selfish person for thinking only of himself but i won't.

...MartinC...how selfish of you. I couldn't stop it, it just came out.

Edit: Still friends?:)

martinc

10-04-2002, 04:49 AM

Originally posted by derelict
Helo martinC,

over 100,000 registered users x 4 grand = $400,000,000 per year on a package give or take. Cream that off to all the employees and service guys and gas and such they will have $300,000,000 left. Do they really need that much for r&d?

Does it cost you 4k to upgrade? Last I checked it was $900. So if all 100,000 seats did upgrade that would be 90,000,000. But do you think every person that has a seat of Max upgrades? I don't know the answer to this, but I'd say not.

Funny, people like Bobo, Ravi, Frank, blur and many more don't even ask a cent for all those kwel stuff they made handy. Do you think they should charge us for consultation fee or charge us money for scripts too? So, when is it too much?

Do I think they should charge, not unless the feel like it. Do I feel fortunate that they take the time to help the community, yes. To me this is totally different. I will use myself as an example cause I can speak for me.:) I have a few scripts that I have released to the public (not that I'm a script king like Bobo). I do this so that they may help other users out there, and to make the community stronger. This is not my source of income, like those who develope Max.

So, your justification for art is "if you have the moolah you can use MAX, if you don't have it...TOO BAD!" is that it?

Not at all. I think if you are making money, you should pay for the product. I wish discreet had a eval copy similar to Soft and AW for those who use it as a hobby or are just learning.

Might it not be better for all artist to be able to affort it wether you're from the united states or from uganda where the price is a lifetimes earning?

Yeah, it would be great if everyone could afford it! I'm really not an elitist.:)

QUOTE] Go across the courseway to Malaysia the package cost 15 thousand ringgit... oh, one earns about 2 thousand ringgit in avarage there (FYI, the country is known to be one of the richest country in South east asia).[/QUOTE]

So how can anyone afford a system to run Max there? Does Intel sell their processors there at 1/10th of the price? Then John Doe buys 100,000 processors in bulk, ships them to other areas of the world to sell for half the price. Now your buddy looses his job at the local computer store because he can't compete with that price. He has to go on welfare and his kids jaw is swollen and infected because he now can't afford to get them braces to correct their overbite.

Unfortunatelly, there is no perfect solution. And I would also add that if someone can't afford a 3k program, 2k would also be a stretch.

No wonder there are so many sites to download warez on the net. You may think them crooks or pirates but to those who could not affort it in their lifetime... they are robinhood.

AW come on now! You know as well as I that even if everyone could afford it there would still be cracks. There are cracks out there for things that cost less than $10.

Might it not be better for more people to have access to MAX and still be the number one developer of 3d aps out there? take for example Flash, Dreamweaver or photoshop - the price is reasonable and you have 100 times more converts.

I think this is a different case as well. What is in competition with Flash and Photoshop? I can't think of any. So not only is the markey MUCH bigger for these types of programs, but you also don't have to share a slice of the pie with anyone.

Oh, i do fantastic flying logos. Can you share with me your contacts? It is kinda dead here with the 911 glut.

Sorry to here that. I'll send you a private email.

I could go to say martinC is a selfish person for thinking only of himself but i won't.

...MartinC...how selfish of you. I couldn't stop it, it just came out.

Now that's a little hash isn't it? I am selfish because I am willing to pay a price for something that I find is worth the money? What about the developers that make Max? Do you think they are all millionairs? Do they not deserve to be compensated for their work?

Edit: Still friends?:) :) :)

Sure! No hard feelings. :)

Martin

derelict

10-04-2002, 05:32 AM

hellow Martinc,

Great to hear we are on the ok (sometimes one will never know if one step on a raw nerve, if you know what i mean...:) )

Lets me keep things as clean an argument as can be.

Does it cost you 4k to upgrade? Last I checked it was $900. So if all 100,000 seats did upgrade that would be 90,000,000. But do you think every person that has a seat of Max upgrades? I don't know the answer to this, but I'd say not

Yes, it does cost me a thou six here in singapore which ruffly come to us$900 bucks. The discussion i had with discreet representatives here says Registered customers and not total seats. If that is true doesn't that means there is a registered customer with 50 seats? Well i donno. I will make a point to findout more (sorry if i'm wrong).:)

Not at all. I think if you are making money, you should pay for the product. I wish discreet had a eval copy similar to Soft and AW for those who use it as a hobby or are just learning.

They do have one, but not as friendly as Maya's. IF it is similar than that bods well for MAX in general. Until then, they are still very Art unfriendly. :)

So how can anyone afford a system to run Max there? Does Intel sell their processors there at 1/10th of the price? Then John Doe buys 100,000 processors in bulk, ships them to other areas of the world to sell for half the price. Now your buddy looses his job at the local computer store because he can't compete with that price. He has to go on welfare and his kids jaw is swollen and infected because he now can't afford to get them braces to correct their overbite.

That nation has a very progressive take on the computer thingy by the government. They take it very seriously. They Come out to help the needy as a whole. They have made a lottery for giving away 2nd hand computers given by contributers and company at large. Even the big computer company giving a hand there!:) further more, those who contribute employment providend fund could take out certain sum for computer purchases albait going through many paper work. And guess what, DIY, is one of the main pass time for students in most malaysian school. One could build a P3 800 in just under 1500 ringgit malaysia!!:)

Unlike the software sold:annoyed:

AW come on now! You know as well as I that even if everyone could afford it there would still be cracks. There are cracks out there for things that cost less than $10.

Not if you're working in singapore you don't! Home is one thing but NEVER DO THAT AT WORK PLACE IN SINGAPORE! period. The government make it a point to make an agency solely to harress company by knocking on their door with a judge letter of concent!
Must understand singapore is so small, when one snizzes the rest of singapore catches too.

I think this is a different case as well. What is in competition with Flash and Photoshop? I can't think of any. So not only is the markey MUCH bigger for these types of programs, but you also don't have to share a slice of the pie with anyone.

Actually there are many out there and some of it are so dedicated that it make a big wullop against the above listed software. Like, Toonboom studio is way better at doing animation compared to flash. There is Go-motion which is akin to flash. There is fireworks which is wayyyy better than photoshop when it comes to web photomedia. There is painter which has brushes that photoshop could only dream of. I could go on, but the point is the prices of the software a way lower than max. Period.

Sorry to here that. I'll send you a private email.

OK.

Now that's a little hash isn't it? I am selfish because I am willing to pay a price for something that I find is worth the money? What about the developers that make Max? Do you think they are all millionairs? Do they not deserve to be compensated for their work?

Sorry dude. It was meant for your post and not you in general. It was for lack of a better word then.:) Try thinking outside the 1st world country, that might change perspective a bit.;)

Sure! No hard feelings.

I'm glad!

dvornik

10-04-2002, 06:07 AM

It would be easier to read if you guys didn't quote each other, but it got me thinking:

LICENSING!!!! Tech support! Customer service! (Especially for educational customers, of course).

Just say NO to c-dilla!

visualboo

10-04-2002, 06:27 AM

Discreet has a demo/trial of Max. Every copy out there.... isn't it?

Like a chance to try it for like 15 or 30 days before you have to authorize it.

dvornik

10-04-2002, 06:36 AM

Was it a reply to my post? I mean we're a DTC and you won't believe how much time we have to waste to make their software work for their own classes.

Their licensing scheme is THE most unconvenient out of all software we run. Thank god for flexlm, but it took us hours on the phone with different people at Autodesk (that's right) to make them send us a file. C-dilla is an achievement in itself, man, without it I wouldn't know how fun lowlevel format is.

[edit] i really resent a licensing arrangement that creates more problems for legitimate customers than for others.

xynaria

10-04-2002, 09:41 AM

Brandon, the reason I made the price jibe is that it's not only A|W, SI etc at the top of the price chain that have cut their prices, but LW, Electric Image , Cinema 4D too. I'm one of those who has always thought Max was overpriced in comparison to LW. Max is now not such a cheap option per se, and to my mind, that was a large part of its appeal to many. There's a reasonable chance that Maya's price slash is going to lure away many Max users which will result in less revenue for them. If that is the case then that would in theory affect R&D just as much as reducing the cost if not more, dependant on numbers.
As others have said, most wouldn't mind the price if Max sorted out it's problems but they have a long ways to go on that one. :)

NNNSlogan

12-09-2002, 08:56 PM

WYSIWYG radiosity

more and better controls for patches, automatic edge welding, handle grid snapping, etc.

ivan iliev

12-09-2002, 09:58 PM

Iain is right!
We have to be better, not just Max!..

Nevertheless,...I have a dream that I'm modeling in the VFB window and feel myself like a sculptor, never more keyboard player...and it comes soon, I'm convinced!:cool:

ivan

Xilica

12-09-2002, 10:43 PM

Allowed to have a TRANSPARENT background!!

LFShade

12-09-2002, 11:49 PM

At the moment, I wish for only one new feature. Or rather, an improvement to an existing feature: Morph angle deformers in the Skin modifier that work on ALL axes of a bone's rotation, and that fully respect positive/negative rotation values. Right now, It's not possible to use the Morph angle deformer to correct twisting deformation (rotation on a standard bone's X-axis), and rotation on the other axes in the negative direction will (partially) trigger morphs set up for the positive direction. This is driving me up a f***ing wall right now :(

Again, I point to Mirai for a fine example of how this kind of bone-driven morph deformation ought to be handled.

dvornik

12-10-2002, 12:36 AM

He-heh... I don't give up. Badboy's move/rotate gizmo.
http://home.earthlink.net/~dvornik/cgt/tech/2gizmo1.png

erilaz

12-10-2002, 02:43 AM

I'd just like to be able to have a weather generator that sets up my physics and light in one toolbar.
For example:
"I'd like a sunny day at about 2 pm with a few clouds, and light southerly breeze. Render my scene in those conditions now! Click.":D

I'd also like an optional holographic peripheral that lets you scuplt in in real time just using your hands. :thumbsup:

Martijn Wijmer

12-10-2002, 03:02 PM

Just read (very quickly) the discussion on the price of an "upgrade", and derelict mentioned some names of people who writes great scripts and give them away free. Those same free script are often sold as an upgrade by Discreet, which is total bullsh#t. I'm still working with v3.1 , but the only thing that I kinda miss is SubD. Most of the "new" features have been around in older version, adapted by the R&D and sold as an upgrade. That's ripping people off. (With the exceptation of reactor, but even Reactor was developed as a plug-in to start with)

googlo

12-11-2002, 12:33 AM

That's ripping people off. (With the exceptation of reactor, but even Reactor was developed as a plug-in to start with)

That's the drawback of a plug-in oriented program. To improve itself, it has to compete with it's third party developers by making what they already made, or make it better. The advantage is that third party developers will usually have very deep focus on whatever aspect they are enhancing or brining to the package that an all-in-one package wouldn't be able to do on it's own. In my optinion anyway.

It's really the same way with other packages like Maya or XSI, it's just that their enhancements are done in private within the company and their programmers.

undoz

12-11-2002, 01:24 AM

I would like to see reflection maps and bump maps in opengl
(I don't have a card that supports pixel shaders and I don't like direct3d)

Nikodemus

12-11-2002, 01:47 AM

i was thinking about getting max5 upgrade with my christmas money i get this year... should i do this or is max6 right around the corner for release?

dvornik

12-11-2002, 01:48 AM

Spaceball plugin that works.

derelict

12-11-2002, 03:07 AM

Originally posted by Nikodemus
i was thinking about getting max5 upgrade with my christmas money i get this year... should i do this or is max6 right around the corner for release?

u should wait for max 9. That is around the corner :)

xzevlin

12-11-2002, 08:24 AM

Max 6 is probably around a year away if they stick with the 18 months until a new version. Version 5 was out in July/August.

So, if you're a good boy all year, Santa might put it under your tree in 2003. :D

I'd really like to see them release a new mini-package that's just poly-modeling, materials, bones, and a renderer, the way Plasma was just the tools needed for web-stuff. Maxon has the right idea by breaking Cinema 4D into bite-sized chunks. Sometimes you don't need a whole chicken, just a few nuggets will do.

Tender juicy nuggets... with gravy... and fresh cut fries...

Jon_Pran

12-12-2002, 02:16 AM

YES!! The way Cinema 4D is sold is great! Personally, I will never use IK, gravity, etc., etc. I don't even really need much modeling (I do it all in Form-Z - sooo much faster for architectural stuff!). Shit, I don't even really need the renderer!! I just need 3D Max to be able to stick Final Render in (or maybe Brazil, depending on how Stage 1 looks).
They would probably sell a ton more, too. Eventually you would think that they'd have to do something. Maybe at least include Final Render or Brazil in the package (although I haven't used Max 5 yet) like Maya and Mental Ray (for 2k!! Damn, if I didn't already feel comfortable with Max!).

Chris Thomas

12-12-2002, 10:20 AM

I just don't think the "limited" or modular system is a good idea. Might make great sense to yourself, as you only want feature A + F and a bit of L or whatever.

Myself, I thought it was great to have learnt Max as an integrated package and as a result have a good idea of pretty much all its functionality. Also why draw your borders so narrowly? how do you now that feature X from another module wouldn'tbe usefull at some point? Ive created a table cloth in the past by modelling it flat and using dynamics to drape it over a table, but thats dynamics and you wouldn't want that as part of your modelling tools......

Also as far as rendering goes, at the momment both Brazil and FR, and Vray for that matter have no material editor of their own. So if you did get max with no renderer, you'd have no way of creating materials.... which would be limiting.....

The argument for modular Max will not stick, in the same way Max for Linux won't be popping up soon. Why create several products from 1, have to spend more on PR for the various splinter aps and then for your trouble get less cash for each. Same goes for Linux, max is based on windows.... its used by games heads for direct3d and also uses directX in its systems elsewhere, all these things make it somewhat difficult to port to linux....

Now Gmax and Plasma, cool, their targeted at separate markets and specific tools, and discreet believe this splintering will bring in new revenues, i hope their efforts were rewarded...

Bluemilk

12-12-2002, 11:44 AM

Ok dont know if this has been said already, but Bring back my DONGLE, bring it back right now.

C dilla is the biggest pile of shit ever, and the whole authorisation thing is bollox, if u have to reformat, u then have to email discreet asking for a new code, then they get all arsey with you asking why you want a new code etc..And that lisense paarser shit, taking the little number home on a floppy, who needs that. If i had a dongle i could where it on a chain round my neck, plug it at work then take it home with me and plug it in there.

Abraham

12-12-2002, 01:37 PM

- The possibility to start a spline in one viewport and keep working on it in another one would be great.
- The possibility to pick any vertex, edge, face on any object as pivot when transforming without having to use a helper.
- Better booleans (well, I'm a little ashamed of them :))

Those to start with would make me quiet happy :) Ab

BADBOY_akaPUFFY

12-12-2002, 01:41 PM

"make award winning animation" button!!!
All I need!!!

BADBOY_akaPUFFY

12-12-2002, 01:42 PM

THE GIZMO MOVE + ROT FOR ease animation!

BADBOY_akaPUFFY

12-12-2002, 01:43 PM

http://support.discreet.com/webboard/wbpx.dll/upload/gizm%20version%201.jpg

John-Stetzer

12-12-2002, 04:41 PM

Originally posted by Abraham

- The possibility to pick any vertex, edge, face on any object as pivot when transforming without having to use a helper.

This you can do right now. Set your pivot to Use Transform Coord Center (the last option in the pivot center flyout), lock your selection, turn on 3d snaps, and choose what you want to use as your snap point.

CarlCampbell

12-12-2002, 05:13 PM

I am really dissapointed with MAX 5. Max 4.2 with Brazil, meshtools, a shitloada plugins and customized interface is what its worth. And why'd they charge for it? For all I care, Discreet (MAX division only, me likes Combustion :p) can drop dead! :annoyed:

Carl

xynaria

12-13-2002, 10:41 AM

Originally posted by jmonkey2000
I just don't think the "limited" or modular system is a good idea.
The argument for modular Max will not stick, in the same way Max for Linux won't be popping up soon. Why create several products from 1, have to spend more on PR for the various splinter aps and then for your trouble get less cash for each. Same goes for Linux, max is based on windows.... its used by games heads for direct3d and also uses directX in its systems elsewhere, all these things make it somewhat difficult to port to linux....

Now Gmax and Plasma, cool, their targeted at separate markets and specific tools, and discreet believe this splintering will bring in new revenues, i hope their efforts were rewarded...

Beg to differ here. Instance....Plasma would be a great entry point for Max users on a limited budget (so they obviously think it's feasible to create several products from 1).... BUT..it won't accept plug ins and has it's own file format that speaks only one way to Max. The only reason I can think of for this is a cynical exploitation. Many would not pay for some of Max's *cough* 'advanced features'..Nurbs spring very much to mind..... but they are not allowed to not do so under the current strategy.
I think it's well past time that Di$creet looked at the whole concept of Max and how the market has changed. Should they be developing inferior solutions to some of the plug ins and then including them as part of the base package or better perhaps fix the defects, consolidate Max's strengths and only develop areas not already being extended by independant developers. :)

googlo

12-13-2002, 02:30 PM

xynaria,

That's the problem though I believe. If Max is going to act like a non-modular program and start to just do everything itself (which the people who keep complaining about how each new advance is just integrations of past plug-ins seem to want) then the makers of Max are going to have to step on the toes of third party developers and start competing with them instead of 'welcoming them in', which was kind of the point of Max allowing other people access to it's internal organs to develop third party stuff in the first place.
It's almost as if Max took the route of having independent developers be everyone's 'in-house' developers for advanced solutions or add-on's to their software.

KiboOst

12-13-2002, 03:06 PM

Maybe there is a mid-line.

Actually max is 2x the maya complete price (don't talk about lightawe). And you still don't have all in the box !! Max still need some third party plugins, as renderer, hair/fur, colths, cs ? etc..
So Discreet say us "buy max, then buy what you need as plugins". Ok but with the max price, I can't buy anything more !!

About developing the max5 renderer, well it was there on viz4 so, a bulk of viz4 renderer and a lot of free script, ok you are in. But max5 renderer won't never get close to companie specifically dedicated as cebas/fishes/chaos. Integrating one ? of course, but which one ?? I still can't understand why discreet waste time to compete such competitors !!

Maybe they should go on top of their politic and put a max light, then buy your renderer, your fur if needed, etc etc, all in one blue box packaging. And then, decrease drastically 3dsmax price to obtain an average good price. And spend time on enhacement/debug existing features (some haven't change since max2) and developpe empty aera !

Or make max a all-in-one, but do it really ! And put nurbs, booleans, hair, fur, a good renderer as mention ahead, etc etc.

Actually max price is at the opposite of what it is really.
Don't get me wrong, I use max for years, I love, but seing it at this price really can't make me happy. Discreet is totally mising the competition. I believe this will change, as combustion price, new wave of marketing etc seems to demonstrate, but I've never looked others packages as much as these months.

Well a conclusion ? I really don't know where we go with max, and I seriously think Discreet should sit down, take a white page, look at the actual market, and then adopt the right strategy.

My 2cent

Kib

thedaemon

12-13-2002, 03:29 PM

what I want from max is stability. Also speed. And better animation workflow, more like mirai. If they would do that, I wouldnt mind the price so much. And that Transform Gizmo is Scary! the rotational gizmo is cluttered enough as it is!

Chris Thomas

12-13-2002, 06:28 PM

Di$creet..... dont make me laugh. I came into this industry about ten years ago now. At that time 3D Studio was about £3.6k. Power animator, Wavefront and Softimage were roughly £18k, you could only run them on SGI's. at the time a minumum of another £12k. The only way you could get a "highend" software job was to work for peanuts for a year or so as a runner (slave)and then use the software at night when the "big boys" had gone home.

10 years later and Maya's price has plumeted, XSI's price has dropped substantialy and Max is.... £3k. Same price.

Now why do you think its competitors have dropped their price by such huge margins? Could it be Max, and maybe Lightwaves doing?

And one last thing about $, tell me which company has a worldwide marketing day on the 3rd of December every year, and has its CEO address you from a private jet somewhere over the atlantic? It aint Discreet, and it also isn't Discreet pissing our money so wastefully against the wall on silly pranks (hey look how cool I am, CG ambassador, in my private jet, smoking a big fat Havana) Pass me the sick bag :thumbsdow

$

yeah right.......

googlo

12-13-2002, 06:43 PM

Yeah, despite how much I would like discreet to lower their price it actually says something about the company in that they haven't RAISED the price of their product for years when they could have if they wanted too. The price for Max has pretty much stayed the same over the years, So I don't really think Discreet is just money blind. They must be keeping their price the same despite other software company price drops for some other reason than just money.

damesqlo

12-15-2002, 04:57 AM

HI, this is one of many wish...

something to make the textures in photoshop and see the results in realtime in 3dmax.. or is that possible in max5?

i know about deep paint but photoshop is better :P

greetings

googlo

12-15-2002, 05:28 AM

Ceba's has made a plugin that does just that, and it's updated real time. I think it's called GhostPainter.

ivan iliev

12-15-2002, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by googlo
Ceba's has made a plugin that does just that, and it's updated real time. I think it's called GhostPainter.

I'm not absolutly sure, but I think GohstPainter does just the opposite: You make something in max and you see the map updated in Photoshop correct me please if I'm wrong, because I am very intrested! Thanx!

ivan

zou

12-15-2002, 06:03 PM

hello
kilboost: you're right, to get a complete package that do anything you want you should have about 5000 $ and get many scripts and customize and look for too much things, and the max5 don't come with many cool stuff, the poly tools are provided with meshtools, the unwrap modifier have a little brother that do all things we need, the new characters are not very helpfull we have cstudio, the renderer is slow with advanced lighting, i still use brazil, etc ...
maya upgraded with 0.5 version (4--> 4.5) with fluids effects...
Max 6 should be more stable, include a good hair/fur tools, more advanced particle without plugins, echance workflow ( i don't want all tools visible when modeling or animating)
nurbs are not enough good to model, should be like rhino !
discreet should provide a tool like fluids of maya !

Ivan : i tried ghost painter, it let paint on photoshop and texture on max is updated:not like you said. but it's not well integrated, your canvas on shop should be visible with max, you arrange shop and max window to appear on your screen this is horrible when you have one monitor. Then the auto update didn't worked for me i must click on update button, also , if you zoom then only a portion of the pic appear , that's only this portion that appear on max's viewport.
OK drop it now!!!

CarlCampbell

12-15-2002, 06:06 PM

Precisely, zou!

I have Max 4.2 with Brazil, Meshtools and a shitloada plugins and that accounts for everything in MAX 5. Sorry Discreet, but NO BARGAIN! :thumbsdow

Carl :beer:

EDIT Also stah-bih-lih-tee! STABILITY! MAX ate my Old Phonograph scene! Still have to get confidance again to restart it.... :shrug:

antero

12-15-2002, 06:41 PM

- exclude/include like lights but for enviroment effects !
- Better viewport 3d engine
- More stable and fast for complex scenes
- Unload and load plugins ( that really works )
- easy API ... it's ugly !
- Maxscript with more options and power, it would be cool to do a shader with maxscript for example.
- vector texture maps ( using for example a Illustrator or freehand file has a texture , saves memory etc ... also it would be cool for shadows )
- reuse shadows

I would be happy :bounce:

CarlCampbell

12-15-2002, 06:47 PM

What're API and reuse shadows?

I'd like the total elimination of Video Post, and then move the lens flares and glows and the stuff thats actually useable into the effects tab. VP is just a sad excuse for integrating compositing that was introduced... erm, in 1994!?

Carl :beer:

antero

12-15-2002, 06:50 PM

API -> SDK ... developemnt of plugins using C++
reuse shadows -> when your tweaking renderings and you have 100 lights with shadows that takes 4 minutes to caculate it would be a time saver to use the old ones if you just changed light intensity !

damesqlo

12-15-2002, 11:11 PM

thanks Googlo... ivan iliev and zou: I try the ghospainter right now and i like it.. but it have little problems like Zou said... i dont worry about that little problems.

my another wish to max 6 is work whit nurbs like rhinoceros...

Thanks to all

greetings

Bluemilk

12-16-2002, 11:13 AM

Has anyone emailed this thread to Discreet R & D, they might fulfil all our wishes. ;)

Erka2

12-25-2002, 06:37 PM

I want 2 things...
1)1th i forgot
2)That I can Use FDD(box,...) in edit poly like:select polygons, apply FDD, modify, Apply changes... all in EditPoly.

danRod

12-26-2002, 05:35 AM

you guys know what the best part of this thread is?????
it has opened up alot of doors for people to share their knowledge. Some of us were requesting ideas and then others came back with a response that showed an existing technique,operation,plugin,etc that solved the request.

VERY COOL communication going on here:beer: :beer: :thumbsup:

My only request is that when max updates their app, they should update their tutorials as well, and not just touch base on the new features. Like HDRI lighting and how to get it working properly would be great to see as a tutorial from the creators. ALSO.......texture baking, how and how and how do I do this!! I dont know. But more importantly, how can I do HDRI lighting in max5???

Laters CG'rs

Dr-spline

12-26-2002, 05:47 AM

Im glad to see this thread got so big, Its the largest thread on cgtalk that I have started. lets keep it going ;)

TheDevil[DK]

12-26-2002, 04:34 PM

I just wich 3dsmax 6 have a custom "Map Channel" in each "Vertex Paint" modifyer, so they can be used as individual mixmap etc.
Also like a better brush option in vertex paint.

Maybe some good particels that deflect each other.

Error323

12-26-2002, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by CarlCampbell
Precisely, zou!

I have Max 4.2 with Brazil, Meshtools and a shitloada plugins and that accounts for everything in MAX 5. Sorry Discreet, but NO BARGAIN! :thumbsdow

Carl :beer:

EDIT Also stah-bih-lih-tee! STABILITY! MAX ate my Old Phonograph scene! Still have to get confidance again to restart it.... :shrug:

Now that i've read all this... doesn't discreet and the plugins that u should pay for on purpose? Because when they come with te perfect package for example splutterfish is out of buisness.

And all those other plugins that u should pay for. Maybe they don't do it because of marketing issues (would be sad but could be very true I think).

CarlCampbell

12-26-2002, 07:05 PM

Whoa, you got me confused!
Did you say that: Discreet doesn't make all these plugins available inside MAX so the companies like Digimation, Blur, Cebas and Splutterfish don't go outta business, right?

If so, yeah, I guess thats why MAX is the package with most 3rd party plugins, and those other companies only build for MAX, to my knowledge. I guess thats the issue.

its ironic though how MAX is the most expensive package AND ON TOP OF THAT you have to buy all these other plugins to rival the tech level (not productivity level) of Maya, XSI, LW, etc... :shame:

Carl :beer:

Error323

12-26-2002, 07:12 PM

yeah it's sad :( But then again.... :) that's why there is competition ^_^

javabeans

12-27-2002, 11:09 AM

the guys in UNcharted Territory who produced the f/x of
the movie "coronado"(please refer to maxunderground.com
feature interview of current) had complained something of
max. they said max is still not open enough to film prodiction
pipeline ,especially the .max file format.And character studio's
crowd animation system seems to be no actual use in producing
massive character animation,for at last they used instanced geometry in particles system.I can hardly imagine how the
solution will make sense.

googlo

12-27-2002, 07:00 PM

YOu should ask Brandon, he worked on the project

If so, yeah, I guess thats why MAX is the package with most 3rd party plugins, and those other companies only build for MAX, to my knowledge. I guess thats the issue.QUOTE]

Max is meant to be plug-in orientated. As far as I know it was done that way on purpose, to be open for other developers to make plug-ins for it.

[QUOTE]its ironic though how MAX is the most expensive package AND ON TOP OF THAT you have to buy all these other plugins to rival the tech level (not productivity level) of Maya, XSI, LW, etc...

It's not the most expensive.. XSI is like 13,000 for the full version and the full version of Maya is like 7,000.. That's the price for the versions with the extra 'plug-ins'.

Dr-spline

12-27-2002, 07:43 PM

xsi is less than maya now, maya is 6999 and xsi is about 6750

arvid

12-27-2002, 07:51 PM

hm.. xsi essentials Vs maya unlimited I assume? xsi advanced should be in the neighbourhood of $13k

googlo

12-27-2002, 07:56 PM

yeah Dr.Spline must have meant the essentials version, but it doesn't have the same stuff advnaced does, like hair and certian kinds of dynamics and cloth, I think. I was meaning the full version. But you can get XSI essentials for even cheaper than 6000 dollars. An xsi dealer near me said I could get XSI essentials for 4500

Equinoxx

12-27-2002, 08:10 PM

probably been mentioned before, but being the lazy arse that i am, ill post it without double checking this time.

Gimme a friggin Edit Poly modifier allready . . .

what use is polymodeling if you can't edit it as a stack . . .

CiF

12-28-2002, 05:30 AM

My Wish list

wich have to be extend ..

-possibility to activate desactivate keys
-non-linear animation !!!!!!!

... heuu .... ? have to think about it ...

but thoses two ones R fu..in NEEDED !!

CiF.

bentllama

12-28-2002, 05:36 AM

I wish they would change the name from "3ds MAX" to "3ds FRANK".

CarlCampbell

12-28-2002, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by bentllama
I wish they would change the name from "3ds MAX" to "3ds FRANK".

:D

Today will be a fun one

Carl :beer:

Riddlaz

02-25-2003, 03:35 PM

Sorry if some of the things I mentioned were stated already. I was browsing some of the threads and I just couldn¡'t resist posting.

Here are some of the things that people most likely already mentioned and would definitely be useful if integrated to the max 6 package:

- Fur

- Better nurbs support.

- More stability

- Graphical node based control.

- Fluids.

- Better Booleans

- Better scene handling, personally this is one of the things that bothers me the most but I know that you could make several scene files to use as layers but even those cause problems at times.

- Cheaper.

Now for my personal wish list:

- An option to exclude certain lights form active shade within active shade instead of having to disable them one by one.

- Ability to give a certain light a specified amount of spec, diffuse and ambient amount. For example you can disable a light from emitting diffuse, spec or ambient but you CAN¡'T for example make a light emit 90% diffuse, 25% specular, 5% ambient for say.

- Ability to model helper gizmos other than the basic transforms.

- Also the ability to manipulate texture projections (besides the basic transforms) would be interesting.

- The ability to bake raytrace reflections facing in all directions as apposed to the camera would be interesting indeed.

- Faster raytracing, a better alternative to making anisotropic/blurry raytrace reflections other than having to use an extremely slow anti-aliaser but a way around this is to render a reflection pass and blur it and then merge it back as a post effect.

- Faster performance while in poly modeling mode such as in mesh mode.

- It would be really sweet if some the procedural maps were improved (ex. wood/water) and if more were added.

- If objects could maintain there individual pivot points when used in the scatter function, an example when this may come in handy is if you scatter a leaf model to a tree, chances that leaf will be overlapping and facing the wrong direction and IF that leaf had its original pivot it would have its proper position and orientation.

- If the above is done, then maybe also give us the ability to use dynamics such as wind to control the orientation of the scattered objects with the option to maintain the current position.

- Specular bloom, right now you can use the blur render effect and have it only affect areas according to their luminance but this is not ideal for the specular bloom effect because this will blur areas that are naturally light in an object even if there specular reflections are set to zero or maybe add a way to specify specular reflections as the pixel selection in the blur effect.

- Better film grain :D, do people actually use max's film grain render effect?? :shame: It looks to simple and crappy imho.

- Ability to assign a color map to environment effects (fog, volume light, etc..)

- Ability to assign a density map to environment effects, what I mean by density map is go use a gray scale map used to identify witch areas will have that specific volumetric effect. The best way would be if you could also set a range/limit to that maps influence for example the white areas of that map could be a maximum value of 20 and the dark areas of the map could be a value of 1 if you choose and maybe it could also be used with a different type of atmospheric gizmo maybe a planar one that stays parallel to the camera to give you the ability to specify the exact position of the effect or a simple attribute to control the distance relative to the camera.

- Shortcuts for nurms iterations and to disable/enable nurms, I just hate having to scroll down and change the nurms settings all the time (Script?).

- The ability to paint vertex selections.

- Multi-layer maps as supposed to having a mix inside a mix inside a mix, same goes for multi-layer materials.

- The ability to treat a material id as a layer in the material editor, for example you have a universal material (applies to the entire object without taking material id's into consideration) then a second layer witch consists on the material for say material id #2 and now you can control the blending of the base/universal material with the material for id #2 and even make the material #2 slightly transparent therefore showing the materials under it if needed. Maybe call it "layering Multi-Sub object material¡¨.

- More options for exporting models such as support for exporting .obj format models in order to avoid having to get things like deep exploration.

- Linking objects to a vertex (Script?)

- Rendering with selected lights/objects (Script?)

- Enhanced shadow/light falloffs, if would be great if you had the ability to control the transition between the shadow and the light side, don¡¦t get me wrong because right now you CAN use the curves to control the ¡§blending¡¨ of the light and shadow but you can¡¦t ¡§expand the reach of the light, you can expand the reach of the shadow (or diminish the light) but not the contrary.

- Ability to exclude/include lights from shadow/light fallofs.

- Ability to blend/smooth between texture projections or material id¡¦s, for example right now you can select a few faces, apply a material id to them using a texture projection but you DON'T have the ability to smooth the transition between those faces and the other faces around them therefore making you do extra work on the material/texture to blend them together properly.

- The ability to give shadow parameters to each object, for example you may want to make the shadow of a specified object a different color (this could be the shadow of a colored liquid for example) or give a more transparent object a lower shadow amount to avoid raytrace shadows.

- The ability to apply a blur map to the shadow of an object, this could be another good alternative to area shadows.

- The ability to scatter objects based on a map as a good alternative to scattering to selected faces, a vertex color map would be ideal for this.

- Better sound support.

Here are some of the things I see in other packages and would personally like to see intergraded in max 6:

- Uvm relaxing tools like the ones in deep uv, they seem to respect the size of the polygon instead of simply relaxing them.

- Sculpting modeling tools.

- High quality displacement like in prman (sub pixel yes I'm a dreamer :)).

- Sub-surface scattering :drool: (brazil ;))

- A photon illumination solution but yet again we have brazil but max should have all these things intergraded considering the price of the package! :p.

- Better DOF, Max¡'s multi-pass approach can give good results but its slooooow (yet again brazil or making dof as a post effect with z depth is a better option here ;))

- separate modeler, tough I'm not entirely sure about having a modeler and the rest of the tools in the main program but a separate modeling program could defiantly be useful if it speeds up the modeling process.

Gooo Max!

Laters,
Riddlaz C.