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RobertoOrtiz
03-08-2005, 12:42 PM
"MAKE IT GOTHIC: Disneyland"
By
ERILAZ
and dont forget to provide topics and source images/video for the next: Matte Wars Forum Topic Suggestions (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=202860)

__________________________________________________ ______
We will try to post one of these topics once a day for your enjoyment.

These are the rules:
* Post only your FINAL piece on this thread, based on the topic on the thread.
* RESOLUTION : The image can have any aspect ratio up to 800 x 600
* They can be done on any medium.
* If you wish, you can add a brief text description about your piece.
* Only original compositions. No "tributes" or plagiarizing, unless is it an integral part of the challenge.
* The topics will be posted every day between 10:00 - 12:00 am US EST.
* The artist also has to post total length of time it took (Thanks Clanger for the idea) and program used.
* Only final pieces can be posted on the thread. They must have been done AFTER the topic has been announced.
* Any piece caught breaking the rules will be taken off the thread.
* The topics will be picked at random from the list on this thread
(The author will be given credit). So guys keep them coming.
*You can add multiple entries, but please dont post WIP (Unless you intend to update them). NEW RULE!
* Ill post ANOTHER thread to quantify and track WHO has participated the most on these threads.


Good luck

-Roberto
PS To submit your topic ideas and suggestions go to this thread:
>>Link<< (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=145003&perpage=15&pagenumber=1)

jtuulos
03-08-2005, 04:48 PM
Wow, I can't believe I'm posting first! Either this isn't an interesting topic (no offense, Erilaz :)) or people across the Atlantic (yeah, you Americans) are sleeping.

Ok, when I first saw the topic, an image of a black-dressed pale-makeup Minnie (like a goth, you know) came to my mind, but I'm no good at painting cartoon characters. So I decided to have a little different take on the subject. There's always a fairytale castle in Disneyland parks so why couldn't it be a gothic castle? :D

Stylistic reference taken from Wikipedia's Gothic Architecture site, lighting ref from here (http://www.hawaiistories.com/heidi/archives/disneyland.jpg).

http://lyseo.edu.ouka.fi/%7Ejtuulos/cgtalk/dsg/276_gothic_disneyland.jpg

Photoshop, about 1h 30min (mostly tweaking the lights), Wacom Intuos 3

PS. The "Disney" text was the hardest part :D

The Damned
03-08-2005, 05:04 PM
Very nice jtuulos... You obviously had the same idea as me...

I'll add Minnie in later...

40mins, Photoshop.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/Retro90210/Studio/Goth.jpg

yonna
03-08-2005, 06:10 PM
i used to paint disney figures a lot when i was little. In this painting i spend a lot of time experimenting with custom brushes. So sorry if it looks messy. I was too lazy too clean up.
ps/wacom/100mins
http://img23.exs.cx/img23/5224/gothicdisn8zs.jpg

HellBoy
03-08-2005, 06:11 PM
This is mine

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v323/mwarsame/disneyland.jpg

I drawed the duck from a ref, The pic on the screen is from a site, my TV logo and my sig

PS + Mouse = 50min

SheepFactory
03-08-2005, 07:10 PM
I am in a rush but wanted to join anyways.

ps - 15min

http://ali.cgcommunity.com/Sketch/mickey.jpg

Plagiarism
03-08-2005, 07:38 PM
http://www.ratol.fi/~hstorbac/daily_scetch/disney_gothic.jpg
gimp 1h, no ref. used to draw these ducks when i was a kid.

crazy3dman
03-08-2005, 07:53 PM
Gargoyle Mickey
http://www.crazy3dman.com/daily_sketch/C3DM_dsg276.jpg

Photoshop, Wacom, 1hr 20min or so.

Plagiarism - LOL - That's quacking me up! :D ...sorry I couldn't help myself.

PatternRecognition
03-08-2005, 09:26 PM
http://www.angrynotmad.net/bleh/goth%20disney.jpg

This was a blast to draw! :D:D:D So, it's not really goth, but it's cheesy goth (left) and depressed (right) versions of Mickey, isn't he adorable?!

AHEM. Anyways.. painter essentials for the lines and PS for the shading, about an hour.

sjaak
03-08-2005, 09:49 PM
great idea =)

http://wdka.hro.nl/%7Eimm2002/bengt/portfolio/dump2/disney.jpg

45 mins - photoshop - wacom a6 - mickey ref used

Loulu79
03-08-2005, 10:38 PM
Interesting stuff so far...I feel too busy to post one up...all because I'm working on the comic strip and juggle around with work. I have a concept. Let me see what I can come up with here. Hopefully I'll have something to post soon:thumbsup:

SteveV
03-08-2005, 10:46 PM
Linda is going to flip when she see's this title.

FiYoG
03-08-2005, 11:19 PM
It's not really gothic, but I didn't want to start over :D
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v169/fiyog/sketches/castle.gif
~30min / photoshop / cheap tablet

OSei
03-08-2005, 11:19 PM
http://osei.free.fr/cgtalk/DS276.jpg

30 min, potoshop, wacom, pencil

DreamMaster
03-08-2005, 11:53 PM
I just wanted to say... I thought disneyland/world is very strict about copyright? :/

Matt_Forcum
03-09-2005, 12:04 AM
Great stuff lately, I haven't posted in a while so I figure I should go for it.

This one started to remind me of something you would see in Mordor. I eventually started loosing steam and decided to quit.

Photoshop/2.5 hours/mouse

http://www.rocketseason.com/daily_sketch/gothic_disneyland.jpg

Matt_Forcum
03-09-2005, 12:05 AM
I just wanted to say... I thought disneyland/world is very strict about copyright? :/

I think this falls under the Parady part of the law.

DreamMaster
03-09-2005, 12:08 AM
parady? o_0

*feels stupid*

erilaz
03-09-2005, 12:12 AM
I just wanted to say... I thought disneyland/world is very strict about copyright? :/

Yeah, but this is non-commercial artisitc reinterpretation. I doubt Disney will get medieval on our butts for playing with their classic designs.:D

tevih
03-09-2005, 12:20 AM
parady? o_0

*feels stupid*

parody is a legal use of copyrighted material according to American copyright law.

erilaz
03-09-2005, 12:46 AM
Jafar as he should be... really maliciously evil and cool:
http://img151.exs.cx/img151/2209/gothicjafar9xv.jpg
40 mins PS. Yay!

daw
03-09-2005, 01:06 AM
good work everybody!

heres mine PS, wacom about 1 hours no ref.- harder then I thought - you think you know them by heart :scream:
http://www.dplays.se/cgtalk/276.jpg

erilaz
03-09-2005, 01:08 AM
jtuulos: Nice work! Good gothic designs going on in there, if not a little too friendly! :D

The Damned: Great pose! I like the quick skecthy strokes.

jŚnnis: I love the characters contrast to the background.

MWarsame: Not sure what's going on there, but I like the outfit he's in! Maybe pull back on the plastic wrap though... looks a bit processed.

Sheep Factory: Heh, kinda makes me think of what the guys in the suits are feeling. Quick job, but good mood!

Plagiarism: Great job! Really like the facial expression.

crazy3dman: What can I say? You just keep getting better. Your style rocks!

AngryScientist: Great grey poses. Very gothic indeed!

sjaak: Love the lighting in this one.

FiYoG: That tower is insane! I can imagine Wlt up there patting a huge cat and staring across the world.

Ephesus: Stunning mood. Mordor Disney would rock! So many orcs to dress up!:D

EDIT:

DAW: Missed your post while I was writing! I really love the use of colour in that one.

Great work once again people! I'm honoured to work alongside you and learn.

Loulu79
03-09-2005, 01:16 AM
Okay, here's mine. 3 Hrs only in Photoshop. This time, no hand-drawn. What a challenge!:argh: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y18/Loulu79/GothicTinker.jpg


Edit:Yeesh!:argh: I just realized I forgot Tink's wings! Oh well (lol):D

Robertt
03-09-2005, 02:29 AM
http://img190.exs.cx/img190/3376/cgtalkdailysketchgothicdisney1.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)


Wacom / photoshop elements / half hour.


robertT

robinayles
03-09-2005, 02:57 AM
American Gothic - Disney Style

http://www.k-squared.com/amgoth_mickey.jpg

PS/Wacom 1.5 hrs.

Used this pic as a reference...

http://www.k-squared.com/wood_amgothic.jpg

DreamMaster
03-09-2005, 03:07 AM
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y1/beauty7/gothic.jpg

Hehe I think it's obvious :P
Painter IX... 45 min to 1 hour.

element5
03-09-2005, 03:18 AM
some great fun images here.

This is mine, 1/2hour wacom/photoshop

http://apache.airnet.com.au/~element5/Gothic-Disney.jpg

Gerald_Stanfield
03-09-2005, 04:00 AM
Heheh... Love these!

http://www.simtropolis.com/dp/gothmick.jpg

20 mins/Painter 9/ Wacom

embryotic
03-09-2005, 04:01 AM
Thank god that u did that parody Robinayles I was just about to leave work when I saw the topic and I was thinking "oh no...I hav to do this" and thankfully you had already done it for me and given me 2 hours extra sleep........what do they say about great minds?! :D

Kirt
03-09-2005, 06:22 AM
http://kirt.cgcommunity.com/images/ds276.jpg

Photoshop 3hrs. (ref used for the castle)

Looks like I need to adjust the brightness on my monitor at work. Totally did not see the value variations on "Mickey's" arms and under his chin. SOrry. :D

Fixed!

Gord-MacDonald
03-09-2005, 07:14 AM
Artrage/PS 15 min - hey ArtRage is fun!



http://cg2020.com/dailysketch/DisneyGothic2.jpg

Dargon
03-09-2005, 07:14 AM
Awesome Kirt!

Mine:

http://img177.exs.cx/img177/5596/gothahontiscopy7mw.jpg

Photoshop, about 2 hours. Reference used, but not heavily.

Anariel
03-09-2005, 07:49 AM
I couldn't pass this one up. So here she is, Gothic-Bell. Tinkerbell's gothic counterpart.
http://img154.exs.cx/img154/7742/gothicbell6vh.jpg
Took me about half an hour in Paintshop

The Damned
03-09-2005, 09:42 AM
Great work everyone.... and lovely piece Kirt (as usual)

Think I'm going to add what i wanted to my entry.... cant back away now.

paperclip
03-09-2005, 10:10 AM
Kirt, Dargon, I love your work!! (Dargon, how do you get such nice clean lines??)

Here's mine, but first let me set the scene:

The Ultimate Disney Goth:

After Walt's death, Quasimodo sat alone in his beautifully gothic cathedral of Notre Dame de Paris, mourning his mentor.
Since Walt had met Quasimodo and given him his fifteen minutes of fame, Quasimodo had revelled in being tolerated, rather than reviled. Walt's death took this away from him.

So......
Quasimodo contacted his cousin Igor via bell morse code and got detailed instructions of resurrection, a technique that Igor had perfected over the years. (For Pratchett lovers, read 'Igors'.)
........Then Quasimodo went to Disneyland and plugged in their great generator in order to....
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/IheardaFlyBuzz-whenIdied/resurrection.jpg

Aardbei
03-09-2005, 10:22 AM
Great painting, Kirt!


http://img171.exs.cx/img171/3861/gothmickey5io.png

Not really 'goth', but he's kind of evil looking so I post it anyway..

No refs / Wacom / Painter IX / 40 minutes

AnimZiggy
03-09-2005, 10:58 AM
Finally, Magica De Spell found the right way to get Mac Duck's lucky dime!

http://img135.exs.cx/img135/3971/gothic4wj.jpg

wacom, phtshp about 20'

great work everyone!

The Damned
03-09-2005, 11:57 AM
Revised my picture.. but it ended up looking a bit bondage like more than goth like..

Hmmm, maybe its the red ball thang...

Overall 2hr. Photoshop...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v40/Retro90210/Studio/mICKEY.jpg

Garma
03-09-2005, 12:23 PM
I've been trying to get something on paper for hours now. Started over 5 times, nothing was good enough, so no sketch from me today I'm afraid. I'm having serious trouble drawing interiors, I'm gonna work on that.

Kvaalen
03-09-2005, 12:37 PM
Aww.. such nice entries! Should have looked through them before making mine... it isn't original anymore.

http://www.kvaalen.com/misc/Disney.jpg

OpenCanvas , a little less than an hour

Matt_Forcum
03-09-2005, 01:33 PM
Looks like I need to adjust the brightness on my monitor at work. Totally did not see the value variations on "Mickey's" arms and under his chin. SOrry. :D

I have the same issues in my picture. It sucks when something Looks awsome in Photoshop, then you post it only to notice the little things that didn't show themselves before.

Gord-MacDonald
03-09-2005, 01:37 PM
Good work everyone!

Plagiarism - nice

crazy3Dman - a classic!

Ephesus - great castle

Daw - great mood

Robin - funny

DreamMaster - cool colour and mood

element5 - love the costume!

Kirt - absolutley great job - so morbid - Disneyland will never be the same!

HerrKatt
03-09-2005, 01:54 PM
Hey, nice work everyone.
Okay, here is the deal. I was totally lacking with inspiration when I tried to paint. First I wasn't going to post it, but I thought it turned out fairly neat, so I'll show it. (Not very "disney", but anyway...) :) If it's to much "off topic" I can remove it.
1 hour and 30 minutes, Photoshop.
http://web.telia.com/~u85118652/HerrKatt/hk_276_disney.jpg

Squibbit
03-09-2005, 01:57 PM
Hey Kirt, dude ,good job!

elmasfeo
03-09-2005, 03:25 PM
there are very good ones here,
kirt, that one's simply...amazing:bowdown:wow!
herrkatt, I don't think it's offtopic, and I like a lot the look it has...

Here's mine:
http://www.telefonica.net/web2/chapuceros/sketches/goothy.jpg

Goofy was always my favourite disney's character when I was a child (and sometimes I still feel like the human reincarnation of Goofy, hehe :D we've got some things in common), I used to draw him a lot so I didn't needed much reference (I looked at a picture, remembered how it was, and then drew it without looking again)...
I was thinking what to do with his left arm when I remembered seeing a comic strip by enayla involving goths and crows...(btw, get well soon enayla!!) so the bird is supposed to be a mix between a crow and the lion king's bird (zazu?)

bobtilton
03-09-2005, 04:39 PM
Kirt - that is ha-ha-larious! He's still wearing that cute little outfit!

Ilikesoup
03-09-2005, 04:58 PM
paperclip - after that wonderful intro, I was sad to scroll down and see a red "x" where your picture should be. :sad: I'm looking from work, so your host might be a site I'm blocked from accessing.

elmasfeo - I thought Goofy would make a great Goth, and you did a much better job than I would have done.

kirt - I was just hoping somebody would ditch Mickey's "perfect circle" ears, but yours really depresses me (in a good way, of course:D )

Hym
03-09-2005, 06:42 PM
some comments for enlightening of the public

*The Damned (and other SM guys): Goth and Sadomasochism are fundamentally not related. They often overlap but the reasons for that have little to do with intentions, in dominance play unlike you did, its usual the guy that wants to be under submission while gag balls are part of sadism, and neither is bondage. Why do i know? Ask Freud, i investigate everything i don't understand. I personally enjoy the absurdity of Japanese Goth, they wear everything from nurse to nazi officer outfits and write manifests on Medieval aesthetics.
*anim_ziggy: heh, i could say something similar about Goth and Satanism now but i wont because i care less about religion than sexuality.
*Ephesus: very nice atmosphere, but painted with a MOUSE?? heh no pun intended but impressed with patience
*DreamMaster: now thats Goth, like the style a lot, only the blood.. but it fits great in the image
*Kirt: love it completely, and your right, the big mouse is going downhill.
*HerrKatt: The two people in front really make the image. love the brush textures, don't worry about off topicness
*elmasfeo: Goofy remains a goofball, the expression made me smile, good design.

No time for a sketch but thx for yesterdays compliments.

Martin_B
03-09-2005, 07:31 PM
Okey, i'll try this too: Open Canvas, around 1 hour.

It's a long-winded gothic mickey who talk about his musical career. "and then i played the guitarr in siouxsie and the banshees in the early 80's..."

http://www.berring.se/martin/bilder/gothy-mouse.jpg

paperclip
03-09-2005, 11:11 PM
Hey, i fixed my quasimodo pic, i think picserver has given up on me!! I hope it's not too much of an anticlimax after my dramatic introduction...!

If you don't feel like going back to page 2 for it, just click here:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/IheardaFlyBuzz-whenIdied/resurrection.jpg

robinayles
03-10-2005, 01:34 AM
digital_embryo - if you get time, I'd like to see your take on it. You are SO right about great minds...or is that GRAPE minds? :)

Kirt - LOVE IT!
Dargon - she is wonderful, me likey!
elmasfeo - FANTASTIC! I think that might be one of your best sketches EVER!

There are so many other great ones here, too - but no time to mention all by name. Just a really great thread, good job everyone!

erilaz
03-10-2005, 01:46 AM
Just out of curiosity, have I gotten any better over the last year? My uphill climb to become a decent 2d artist has recently hit a snag!

deaderthanred
03-10-2005, 04:31 AM
elmasfeo: superbly disney and gothic at the same time :D excellent sketch!
HerrKatt: nice neon sign and rich textures!
Kirt: great stuff as always :applause:
erilaz: i havent been around much, but from what i remember from last year, you did improve in shading and colors. Also, your topics are always interesting :)

if only there were more hours in a day, i managed to do a quick one while waiting for renders to finish; dunno how long this took, 1-half hours, more or less, just doodling in photoshop7

Nemo was afraid of the dark, but his daddy didnt know better when he took him on one of those fishing trips.. :D
http://img112.exs.cx/img112/3436/disneygothicnemo0mu.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us)

DesireeJReynolds
03-10-2005, 05:19 AM
deaderthanred: I simply LOVE that!

Im a little late posting, but I couldnt resist this one, and HAD to make time to do something.

*note: This isnt so much a sketch as it is a modification of a page from a coloring book, so I didnt actually do the linework... I only...er...enhanced the image :)

http://www.desireejreynolds.com/gothella.jpg

cDlm
03-10-2005, 08:16 AM
Hello!
I've been lurking here (watching you, heheheh) for some time now, never got enough courage or ideas to participate... until now, so here's my response to 2 DSGs at once :)

http://cdlm42.free.fr/dsg/dsg276_gothic_disneyland.jpg

Get well soon Enayla !

daw
03-10-2005, 08:29 AM
this thread is evil - good work everyone!!!

Kirt - thats just awesome very good
HerrKatt - at first glans I thought it was a shaft straight down to hell - but this is very good as well :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
elmasfeo - very good
deaderthanred - really good lightning and I love the colors

Loulu79
03-10-2005, 05:44 PM
Kirt, Elmasfeo, Dargon, Deaderthanred: Great understanding and concept! You guys nail this one!:thumbsup:

Same with Deisree! Great job everyone!:wip:

elmasfeo
03-10-2005, 06:34 PM
ey, thanks a lot for your comments everyone! :)

erilaz - I've done a bit of searching on your latest sketches but I could only go back until november or so, and my memory is not that good, but as deaderthanred said, I think your shading and general skills have gone some better, just continue practising and posting here! it's a matter of time... (btw, while I was looking for your posts I've discovered that you must be one of the most active users of cgtalk... less talking and more sketching! hehehe j/k...

ilikesoup - ey! If you were making or going to make a goofy sketch don't stop just because I already did it!

robin - thanks! one of my best? ironically, I was thinking in leaving it unfinished without posting... thanks a lot! that thought will never cross my mind again, hehehe

Ilikesoup
03-10-2005, 09:40 PM
Just out of curiosity, have I gotten any better over the last year? My uphill climb to become a decent 2d artist has recently hit a snag!

Sorry to answer a question with a question, but do you find yourself spending more time on your sketches before or less? The more time you can spend developing a picture and adding detail, the better your visual skills have become. And if you COULD spend more time on each sketch but don't, then you're not giving yourself a chance to see what you can do.

Sorry for the cryptic answer but like elmasfeo said, your post history is just you talking. :p

Matt_Forcum
03-10-2005, 09:45 PM
Don't worry, Getting good takes time. and Not everyone progresses at the same speed. It has taken me 20 years to get to the point I am at now, (which is not that far along as an artist.) and I am just now feeling like I am starting to really break through that wall that held me back for so long.

erilaz
03-11-2005, 12:41 AM
(btw, while I was looking for your posts I've discovered that you must be one of the most active users of cgtalk... less talking and more sketching! hehehe j/k...



I've done a lot less talking and far more sketching in the last 6 months!:D I only started to become more serious about improving myself recently.

Sorry to answer a question with a question, but do you find yourself spending more time on your sketches before or less? The more time you can spend developing a picture and adding detail, the better your visual skills have become. And if you COULD spend more time on each sketch but don't, then you're not giving yourself a chance to see what you can do.

I'm spending more time on each sketch, but I'm finding less time to do the sketches! Work has just turned it up a notch and I'm working hardcore 12-hour days right now. I sketch every other moment... I've got a sketch book purely for my travel between home and work, which is gradually filling up. I can see improvements in there, which I need to translate into wacom skills on here!

Thanks for the comments and tips guys, and as for my prominent presence on cgtalk, I'm just a little addicted. These days I just have to shut down my browser.:D

Jeffsimpson
03-11-2005, 07:25 AM
Disney chicks are impossible to draw...arg. (photoshop, bout 2 hours)

http://www.eciad.ca/~jsimpson/images/cgtalkariel.jpg

Her0d
03-11-2005, 08:20 PM
Pocahontas. Photoshop, 1.2hr (yes, Disney chicks are difficult to draw, they are slightly out of proportions in a 'cute' way, and its hard task to 'feel' those misproportions right :-)

http://ci.com.pl/%7Estf/gfx/pocahontas.jpg

Art2
03-11-2005, 09:39 PM
I'm like 10 topics behind? :eek:

Another Gothic Disney chick... alternate universe...

around 2,5-3h PainterIX, Phshop7

http://www.marlonart.nl/web/sketch77.jpg

Where's Alice, thought this would be her topic...

Squibbit
03-12-2005, 02:15 AM
I ain't even gonna try , Kirt so owns this thread with his mickey-pants rat, lol

Art2
03-12-2005, 08:24 AM
I ain't even gonna try , Kirt so owns this thread with his mickey-pants rat, lol

Aah well, I tried... (Kirt should be working on his comic, @*#! :) )

Kirt
03-12-2005, 11:01 AM
Squibbit - I'd love to see your entry though. You've had some pretty strong entries this past week. Don't let my ratty Mickey discourage you from drawing.

Art2 - Those dwarves look like evil garden gnomes. Really nice work there too. I am working on the comic. I got behind this week and next week doesn't look good already. I'm going to have to crunch it this weekend.

deaderthanred - You get my vote on this topic. Love the lighting on that one. :thumbsup:

Thanks for the comments, everyone.

Rudeone
03-12-2005, 12:26 PM
Hey some pretty amazing stuff here.

Kirt, your rat rocks!

Deaderthanred, I love your 'Finding Nemo' sketch, great work!

Ok here's mine, about 1,5 hours in PS

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v300/rudeone/snowwhitenew2copy.jpg

JVaughan
03-12-2005, 03:45 PM
Good work everyone, good to see all this loveable Disney characters having a huge identity crisis. Now if we could just get them smoking and mope dancing. Well here is mine, days late, dollars short,

http://www.jvaughan.org/images/DisneyGotho.jpg

Disney Morgul?

-Josh

deaderthanred
03-13-2005, 01:27 AM
oo more new sketches!
Her0d: whee pocahontas does voodoo
Art2: i can look at your clean lines and forget the time. great version of snow white.. evil always is prettier ;)
Rudeone: your snow white looks hard core goth :D
JVaughan: cool colors! all your sketches are so vibrant, great stuff
thanks everyone for your kind words for my humble sketch *blush!*

cLos71
03-14-2005, 04:39 AM
Lots of great work since I last posted! Wish I had more time :sad: I couldn't pass this one up. Miss very much doing the sketch and the forum. Keep up the great work. Enjoy!

http://www.carlosvegadesign.com/CGT/cvgothMM.jpg

Rudeone
03-14-2005, 03:56 PM
just went trough this topic again, realized it was pretty stupid to post a new update instead of editing my previous...is there any way to remove this post? ah well, great work y'all!

Ow and cLos, nice colors, the face reminds me of MAD

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03-14-2005, 03:56 PM
This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.