Software patent directive adopted (EU)

[thesuit]

Is this as bad as it sounds?

[JDex]

Yet another sad day for innovation and advancement.

[Q_B]

Is this as bad as it sounds?

It's worst; imagine:
"If the CIID passes through and legalises these software patents, every business would need to hire lawyers to track patents to avoid infringement. But this would be a near-impossible task given the number and trivial nature of so many patents -- imagine trying to write software without a progress bar (http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/txt/ep/0394/160/), menu tabs (http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/samples/ep689133/index.en.html) or certain kinds of multitasking! (http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/samples/ep644483/index.en.html)" (http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/samples/ep644483/index.en.html)

(Quoted from one of the first post's links)

Great, isn't it?

[kengi]

its great, its working in the usa haha

http://www.uspto.gov/web/patents/patog/week52/OG/html/1289-4/US06834453-20041228.html

more geniuses:
http://www.patentlysilly.com/

[thesuit]

holy crap!!!
is this alredy a law or is it getting through!?
and on a selfish note, this is only for Europe right?

[Ultimatebadass]

Damn.... http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif That is some really bad news.

[Q_B]

holy crap!!!
is this alredy a law or is it getting through!?
and on a selfish note, this is only for Europe right?

An European Directive, once it's adopted, has a legal timeframe to be implemented by each European State into its own law. But once it is aproved, it becomes mandatory for every EU State.

As for it being already law, " The European Parliament will now have three months to reject or amend the proposal. For rejection or every single amendment, the EP needs a majority of the component members of parliaments, i.e. 367 votes irrespective of absences or abstentions." (LINK (http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=439))

Apparently (and i say this because i'm far from being an expert on EU institutions), it still has a chance of being either modified/rejected, but judging from what i read and from the course it has run so far, i'd say it will probably be adopted.

[Irratio]

Or every European cgtalk member signs in on www.ffii.org or www.nosoftwarepatents.com
and annoys his representatives in the EU parliament so hard that they will be forced to
reject the directive on the last possible occasion. This is the most important thing right
now. Please, please, please sign in.

Johannes

[Para]

Parliament is actually against this but seems like they are incompetent to defy the Council (which the Parliament could break...). In any case, this is very bad thing because logically-wise software patents have too many loopholes. Just imagine if someone could manage to get a patent for "a simple method to execute the main block of a program".

[-=TF=-]

i would say: f.uck the patent lobby (read: microsoft & co.) hard!!! there is something fishy going on here in EU. :eek:



Gates v. Denmark http://www.groklaw.net/images/speck.gif Tuesday, February 15 2005 @ 07:11 AM EST
If you have ever wondered what Bill Gates says when he flies to Europe to meet with heads of state, we now have clarity, as business dudes might put it. Here's an article (http://www.borsen.dk/dn/70135) in Danish on precisely what Bill told Denmark he'd do if they opposed the software patents directive, followed by a rough translation by an alert Groklaw reader there, one of several to send this item to us: "Stifteren af verdens største softwarevirksomhed Bill Gates er nu parat til at lukke Navision i Danmark og flytte de knap 800 udviklere bag Danmarks største softwaresucces til USA." The founder of the world's largest software company, Bill Gates, is now ready to shut down Navision in Denmark and move around 800 developers behind Denmarks biggest software success to the US."Det slog Microsoft-chefen fast, da han i november mødtes med statsminister Anders Fogh Rasmussen (V), samt økonomi- og erhvervsminister Bendt Bendtsen (K), og videnskabsminister Helge Sander (V). " The Microsoft leader made that clear, when he meet with Prime Minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen, Economic and Business Minister Bendt Bendtsen and Science Minister Helge Sander in November."Truslen risikerer at blive ført ud i livet, hvis det lykkes dele af IT-branchen at få blokeret et omstridt EU-direktiv om patenter på software, som Microsoft for alt i verden gerne vil have vedtaget, men som gang på gang er blevet forhalet takket være modstandernes effektive lobbyarbejde. " The threat risks being executet, if part of the IT business manages to block the disputed EU directive on patenting software, that Microsoft wants so dearly, but time and time again has been postponed thanks to efficient lobbying by anti-patent opposition."»Hvis jeg skal beholde mit udviklingscenter i Danmark, kræver det, at der kommer en afklaring på rettighedsspørgsmålet. Ellers flytter jeg det til USA, hvor jeg kan beskytte mine rettigheder,« sagde Bill Gates ifølge Microsofts chefjurist Marianne Wier, der også deltog på mødet med Anders Fogh Rasmussen."

"If I am to keep my development center in Denmark, I must have clearity on the rights issue. Otherwise I will move to the US, where I can protect my rights," said Gates according to to Microsoft chief attorney Marianne Wier, who also attended the meeting with Anders Fogh Rasmussen. So, how do you like it? Still want to use this nice man's software? Here's FFII's statement (http://wiki.ffii.org/Navision050215En). "Børsen", I'm told, is the largest financial daily in Denmark, sort of like our Wall St. Journal.

Speaking of rights, you all have the right to stop using Microsoft software, you know. Thanks to Richard Stallman and his GNU Project, Linus Torvalds, and thousands and thousands of good-hearted and skilled programmers who cared enough to give the world some very fine software, you actually do have a choice. If enough companies, individuals, and governments make that choice, this kind of bullying would be so over.


source:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20050215071109231



for more info on this, see http://nosoftwarepatents.com (http://nosoftwarepatents.com/)

[Martin_G_3D]

Prime reason for this is the complete lack of knowledge of the subject by the european 'leaders'

[Zeruel the 14th]

Thats so incredibly dodgy. Hope it gets overturned (then shredded and burned).

Companies like Acacia Research suck too (not too different it seems from law firms that pursue patents as another source of revenue through threats and intimidation)

[Coliba]

Does something like the CIID legislation already exist in the US, and if so, how are software developers dealing with it? Why hasn't it stifled Linux development for example?

[Q_B]

Does something like the CIID legislation already exist in the US, and if so, how are software developers dealing with it? Why hasn't it stifled Linux development for example?

Here is something on the subject: LINK (http://www.base.com/software-patents/software-patents.html)

And yes... there is definitely something VERY fishy going on in Euroland...
This just makes me feel sad because, somehow, i still had a remote feeling that EU could really become a fair and social-concerned place for all to live. Instead i get the feeling that it is just building upon the bureaucracy and generating more shark-feeding places... Sad ... anyways, nuff politics. Back to software patents

[Hugh]

It's not completely through yet:

According to The Register (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/03/07/ec_says_yes_patents/):

To proceed further the legislation must now pass the European Parliament. Hungary, Lativia, the Netherlands, Poland and Cyprus have all made unilateral declarations against the proposed law.

[Elrod]

Hugh,

Unfortunately, the Dutch representative has chosen to ignore the wishes of the Dutch parliament, and has voted for the law. That's how democratic the EU and the especially the commission is getting. If this is going to be the defacto way of passing laws in the EU, then i'd be buggered to vote for a European constitution. Not that it would matter though, as our parliament has decided that any possible outcome of referendae would possibly be ignored.

This whole patentlaw business is beyond dodgy. This is a major dirty powergame.

edit/
Ok, something went wrong with my post. I'm not Elrond, i'm Parallax.

[Q_B]

Ok, something went wrong with my post. I'm not Elrond, i'm Parallax.

LOL are you serious?

[Elrod]

wtf!

"welcome back elrod" this is weird.

[parallax]

OK, haha i see what's going on.

My co-worker was still signed in. Didn't know he used this PC.

Can a mod please delete the 2 previous posts by Elrod? (check IP if you want)

[Virum]

Or every European cgtalk member signs in on www.ffii.org (http://www.ffii.org) or www.nosoftwarepatents.com (http://www.nosoftwarepatents.com)
and annoys his representatives in the EU parliament so hard that they will be forced to
reject the directive on the last possible occasion. This is the most important thing right
now. Please, please, please sign in.

Johannes

As a caring American, would it help if I signed too? :(

[Q_B]

As a caring American, would it help if I signed too? :(

There's an option for North America on the dropdown country selection, on the petition signing form, so, i'd say you're preety much welcome!

maibe we should hurry and sign while we can, before "Internet-based petition form" is patented...

[Virum]

There's an option for North America on the dropdown country selection, on the petition signing form, so, i'd say you're preety much welcome!

maibe we should hurry and sign while we can, before "Internet-based petition form" is patented...

Doing it now then.

I'm really sorry to hear this. :(

[Coliba]

Reading this page makes me sick and furios:
http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/effects/index.en.html

The greedy bastards! How the hell can you grant patents to algorithms? That's like granting patents to a sentence. Whenever you want to use that sentence in a book or on a webpage you would have to pay! What is even more frustrating is these scumbags patent knowledge that has been well known for years, they didn't even make an effort. Some guy thinks up of a method, shares it with the rest of the world and these guys come along and patent it.

[Q_B]

To clarify the situation as it is: now that it passed the Comission, it will go for the Parliament for a 2nd reading, this time being much harder to halt or alter the law:

"To reject or even amend part of the proposed software patent law, an absolute majority of the parliament is required. This means that if 200 of the 367 members of parliament show up for the vote and 150 vote against the patent law, it will still pass because every absentee will count as a yes vote." (LINK (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1759,1773854,00.asp))

edit: Coliba, those are really buggers, agreed, but on a more "colourfull" and visually explanatory side, take a look: Your Webshop is Patented! (http://webshop.ffii.org/)

[Virum]

I must be stupid, I can't find the internet petition form.... :(

Anybody care to direct link me?

[Q_B]

PETITION LINK (http://petition.eurolinux.org/)

Here ya go.

[Coliba]

Incredible Q_B, just incredible.....such obvious idiocy it just makes your mind stand still in disbelief. I think I'll go patent an oval shaped brushstroke with blue, so that any painter that wishes to paint an oval shaped brushstroke with blue will have to pay me royalties.

It's obvious who is behind this legislation but trying to look on the bright side, I just have a feeling it will blow up in their face. It will just strengthen and further organize the open source community.

I mean practically, how can a company stop me from using free software? If a programmer writes a voice IP app for example, with methods and algorithms similar to a patent, and the company who owns the patent tells the programmer to stop distributing it, he takes it off his page. But, that software is already all over the internet, how can they stop people from using it? Impossible. So go ahead and write what ever software you want. This is bullshit.

[Coliba]

It's just too much:

" Amazon Gift Ordering (http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/samples/ep927945/index.en.html)

If you want to program your online shop so that it delivers your articles as gifts to a third person specified by the customer, you might want to negotiate with Amazon Inc for a license. This patent, which is a direct descendant of Amazon's One Click Patent, was granted by the European Patent Office (EPO) in May 2003."

http://swpat.ffii.org/patents/samples/ep927945/index.en.html

[Beamtracer]

there is something fishy going on here in EU. :eek:
There are more people against this new law than support it, so what you've gotta work out is this.... what are the forces at play that act upon the European parliament to make them want to do something that the people don't want?

This could actually apply to any parliament or government on any subject. If they do something that the people don't want, chances are there are some sinister forces acting behind the scenes. You should find out what these forces are! (or who they are!)

[DarkTure]

why oh why did we ever join EU :(

[Virum]

PETITION LINK (http://petition.eurolinux.org/)

Here ya go.

Thank you. :) Signed.

[MasterZap]

AFAIK, this (well not this, but something similar) is already in full force in the US?

It sounds as if US people is saying "oh those poor europeans", when the reality is the US people are already in this mess? Or??

/Z

[Virum]

AFAIK, this (well not this, but something similar) is already in full force in the US?

It sounds as if US people is saying "oh those poor europeans", when the reality is the US people are already in this mess? Or??

/Z

Hmmm, we could very well be with M$ patenting the double-click... -_-

I'm not sure though; I thought I would have heard of it if USA-ians were in this kind of mess as well.

:shrug:

[Srek]

AFAIK, this (well not this, but something similar) is already in full force in the US?

It sounds as if US people is saying "oh those poor europeans", when the reality is the US people are already in this mess? Or??

/Z

In the US software patents are possible for many years now. They have led to a number of realy silly patents and lawsuits. Luckily most patents are beeing used to settle differences between companies, but this only works if you were able to obtain a large and widely applicable portfolio of patents (read: if you are a big player).
The current way patents are handled in the industrialized nations clearly favour the big players and the companies making money not from inventing but from prosecuting.
In the not to far away future you won't be able to start a business on some great idea you have without having to pay realy large amounts of money for patent lawyers to clear the way for you.
Bright future ahaed :(

Cheers
Björn

[Q_B]

Of course US is already in it. And of course that is not the end of the world. As for not having noticed something big till now regarding these issues, that is also natural. Very seldom this kind of thing generates public debate, media coverage, even big-time courtlaw action. To get an idea of how the game is being played (for some years now) and how it could be played in EU very soon too, check out the link provided in post #25 of this thread, for instance. I don't know about you, but this kind of background aproach practices sound awfully like mob-style blackmailing to me.

[Samo]

As blenderhead I'm concerned by E.U. software patents. Blender Foundation has made his position very clear about E.U. software patents too:

On behalf of the Blender Foundation I've signed the petition against software patents as well. Not out of anti-patent zealotism, but to first protect an open exchange of ideas and algorithms on 3d creation software.

I've already signed the petition:

http://petition.eurolinux.org/

[Coliba]

"Furthermore, an algorithm is inherently non-technical and therefore cannot constitute a technical invention. Nonetheless, a method involving the use of an algorithm might be patentable provided that the method is used to solve a technical problem. However, any patent granted for such a method would not monopolise the algorithm itself or its use in contexts not foreseen in the patent."

I see, so: circumference=pi * diameter is not patentable but if I write:

function getcircumference (diameter){
var circumference=3.14*diameter
return circumference
}

I can patent that? I'm presenting here a method for solving a problem of a "technical nature" no? Better go do this right away, I'm rich!!!

[lightwolf]

Of course US is already in it. And of course that is not the end of the world. As for not having noticed something big till now regarding these issues, that is also natural.
Actually, the most striking case that concerns us CG people is the demise of Ex-Luna. They had to close down (effectively, even though nVidia rescued them in the end) because they were infringing a patent by Pixar (who hold _tons_ of patents on CG techniques, from SDS to deep shadow maps). In this case it was I believe a dithering/sampling pattern algorithm.

The only thing if you can't afford a patent lawyer is make your work/algorithm/code known as soon as possible, so you have the chance to claim prior art in a lawsuit.

Cheers,
Mike

[Coliba]

Well according to the CIID, your method, or implementation call it whatever you like, doesn't even have to be new...

[StefanDidak]

The only thing if you can't afford a patent lawyer is make your work/algorithm/code known as soon as possible, so you have the chance to claim prior art in a lawsuit.

Claiming prior art (or even being able to prove it beyond any doubt) still won't save small companies or individuals from the potential negative effects of the proposed software patents law. For example, if you claim prior art on something I have just received a patent for, and you can prove it, yet I have more money to throw at the legal machine, then it is very easy (and perhaps efficient as well) for me to keep you tied up in the courts for a very long time, thereby draining your resources and money that you have available to defend yourself against the claim.

This of course, also exposes the flip-side of the patent laws as they are proposed. A small company or individual could technically still go through the process and receive a patent, provided they have sufficient funds to go through the process. But when it comes time to defend the patent (which you are obliged to do in order to sustain and keep the patent valid) it still will cost a lot of money to make the legal machine work for you. So it doesn't just put undue pressure and risk upon the smaller companies, it also prevents them from successfuly maintaining any patent or patent portfolio.

And we haven't even begun to discuss the interpretive abilities and overall capacity of the patent offices that will sit in judgement over awarding of any particular patent. The USPTO has shown, time and time again, that patents are often awarded based on the inability and lack of capacity of the staff to properly assess an application's validity. That, eventually leads to hillarious patents (such as the few lines of ASM that make a cursor blink).

[lightwolf]

Stefan,
good point about the cash required. It is a bit different in Europe, since in some countries the lawyers costs are capped by law (their daily rates that is).

But however you look at it, patents are a very bad idea for the software industry as a whole.

Cheers,
Mike

[Q_B]

Very good points raised.

Now, excuse me if i'm not 100% correct, but, the figures we're talkin about, just to register a patent, is roughly around 30 000 € ... more fees ... more law procedure fees ...

I don't know about you guys, but i honestly don't see that many SME's with that amount of cash available to throw at a single patent, let alone a patent portfolio ...

As for the cap in european litigation fees, well, i think you're more or less correct on that point, i'll try to check that later for acuracy. Still, you'd have to add much more on top of the lawyer fee, just the law processual fees dragged some good amount of time can really drain a small business to death.

What really surprises me a bit is the small participation of software developers in this thread/subject. Hell, i'm no software developer and this kind of events just freaks me out!

Even in CG, have you ever noticed the kind of patent already valid in the US in the 3D field (thanx lightwolf)? Not even so specific as Pixar's, but, like ... OpenGL? Wich Microsoft owns a great deal of chunks now?

[lightwolf]

As for the cap in european litigation fees, well, i think you're more or less correct on that point, i'll try to check that later for acuracy. Still, you'd have to add much more on top of the lawyer fee, just the law processual fees dragged some good amount of time can really drain a small business to death.
Absolutely. Around 7 years ago on of the co-founders of my company sued me and the other remaining founder because we basically threw him out. And we're talking a lawsuit because of 2000-3000€. It did cost us 3 months of time, and can be extremely nerve wrecking as well. I guess it is a bit like divorce (or breaking up with someone). Even if you win the lawsuit, it can really hurt - both financially and emotionally.

Cheers,
Mike

[lightwolf]

Now, excuse me if i'm not 100% correct, but, the figures we're talkin about, just to register a patent, is roughly around 30 000 € ... more fees ... more law procedure fees ...
The registration is actually quite cheap... _but_ the prior research and legal paperwork involved is expensive.

I also had a chat with some of the people responsible for giving out patents (at the European Patent Office in Munich) at a talk they hosted about software patents.
What one of them bascially said: "If I don't understand a patent, I generally grant it" - yeah, let others find out later in court if it is valid. So much for those trivial patents that a worded in a way to hide their content.
Also, let's not forget, employes at the patent office have to show a certain success in granting patents, since that determines how effctive they are. Also, states like to compare the strength of their industries by the number of patents granted in a particular country.

Cheers,
Mike

[Q_B]

"...What one of them bascially said: "If I don't understand a patent, I generally grant it" - yeah, let others find out later in court if it is valid."

Heh, so much for eficiency! That'd be laughable, if it wasn't so sad.

On a related note, here's (finally) some sort of sign that it was noticed down here in the southest of Europe:

"Patentear o software é destruí-lo" (http://jornal.publico.pt/noticias.asp?id=10501&sid=1129)

(article in Portuguese newspaper "O Público")

Sorry for the lack of translation, but it's too extense and i don't have the time.

Here's the reference to it in FFII site, thou:

"O Público: Manuel Castells says "Patenting software equals destroying software" (http://wiki.ffii.org/Castells050310En) " (http://wiki.ffii.org/Castells050310En)

[Q_B]

EU Parliament forgives Council for adopting patent directive

"The software patent directive is heading for a showdown in the European Parliament in July, now that any 'small irrelevant mistakes' committed by the EU Council have been ignored"

>>>Link<<< (http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,39020381,39193312,00.htm)

Not to correct things is bad enough, but labeling it as "small irrelevant mistakes" is really pushing it too far. Outrageous.

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