Picture Sequence or Video?

[Simon Wicker]

if your computer crashes or runs out of memory during the render and you have used a non sequential format as your destination then you have just lost everything. if you use any kind of compressed format and suddenly you decide you need to have better quality you have to re-render everything. all in all it pays to be conservative in your choice of rendering formats and always use a sequence of full res still images that are then converted downstream into the destination format you require.

cheers, simon w.

[Tiziano]

So then I'd import the file/folder into AE as an image sequence, each still comes in as 1/30 of a second.

Wait. I just remembered I'll be using the AE plug-in. This is what I import into AE. Does it then know about the image sequences or am I scewed?

[Simon Wicker]

the .aec file is just a 'wrapper' for the image sequences you render so in that sense it knows about them (and the composition size, frame rate and duration).

however if you are targeting a DVD format then you have to know what region you are working to, 30fps NTSC or 25fps PAL, and render out of cinema using that (the fps is set in the project settings and the render settings).

cheers, simon w.

[Per-Anders]

at the end you'll of course want an mpeg, however in general it's always best (provided you have room) to render to a picture sequence, simply because if you have to stop the render, or if there are any errors on a couple of frames you can re-render those missing/messed up frames, and it's far easier to fix small glitches on seperate frames. it'll also give you the best quality (though also the largest file size).

for individual frames it's very popular currently to use PNG format (lossless but pretty good compression).

[anobrin]

It depends on where you are in your production
If you are are simply rendering short previsual test renders
I see no point in rendering to stills and compiling
in a NLE post app.
whem you are ready to render hires finals ,yes image sequences
are best for quality etc.

[Tiziano]

Lots of replies, thanks y'all.

I'm going for NTSC, so 30fps, D1.

I'm at the stage where I can still do anything in terms of switching my workflow around but I'm pretty close to making the final decisions. Last night I did a small test render of the walkthrough, "postage stamp" size, to proof my camera movements. Still have some work to do on that.

The S&T sequences worked great and I was able to bring a green screen keyed out clip from AE into Final Cut Express and lay it over the S&T stitched together clips. Once finished, this would cross fade into the full render walkthrough.

So, to answer one of the questions, I'm using AE 6.5Pro and Final Cut Express HD for my Compositor and NLE respectively.

PNG as a format for this, :hmm: I thought I read somewhere that a straight Photoshop (PSD) file would be better?

[Simon Wicker]

PNG as a format for this, :hmm: I thought I read somewhere that a straight Photoshop (PSD) file would be better?

everyone has their own personal preference and once again you should use whatever is appropriate to the job in hand. i would use .psd on the desktop as it is a fairly standard format and uses mild rle compression so file sizes can be kept down.

you can get maximum compatibility from .tif but of course that is only if you use a completely uncompressed version. this would be useful if you are exchanging raw files with other people/companies but obviously this is not the case if you are handling all of the work yourself.

cheers, simon w.

[Tiziano]

Makes sense.
Thanks again guys.

[brinda]

One more upside to the image sequence is that you can jump into AE right away...you don't have to wait for an entire .mov to finish rendering out of Cinema.

In AE, when you import your footage, there is a little checkbox in the lower left (on a Mac) to pull in the assets as an image sequence. The cool thing is that you only need one frame rendered to be able to import it...the asset will dynamically update as more frames get rendered out of Cinema.

I used this extensively on the Bourne Supremacy project, and it saved a TON of time. Basically I was able to do all my AE compositing, color fx, etc. before Cinema was even done rending the entire image sequence. Once Cinema was done, all I needed to do was to kick off the render in AE.

The other benefit to an image sequence based workflow, is that it's easier to move into the NET render environment if needed. And as mdme_sadie mentioned, it's much easier to fix a couple frames than re-reender the entire project.

Anyway, best of luck with you project.

-Brinda

[Tiziano]

OK, so the AE file that C4d is generating tells AE both that it's in image sequence form and how many images to expect. Cool.

I suppose my little 12" Powerbook 1Ghz can't take a combo C4d render at the same time as doing some AE compositing but it's good to know anyway.

BTW, In the massive mess of papers and magazines under my living room table I just found a PDF print out I made of the manual for the Cinema/Ae Plug-In. Can't find it on my machine or install disks so who knows where I got it from but at least I have it. As usual, the manual clears up a lot that I'm asking here so thanks to everyone for your patience. I'm not totally sure I have it completely yet but I'll have to try it myself to be sure.

:thumbsup: to everyone.

[Tiziano]

Hi guys,

Just double checking some things.

I'm rendering as an image sequence per this thread and I've decided to do it in sections (ie- frames (images) 1 through 90, then 91 through 250, etc...). This way I can recheck my movements. In the end I'll have about 4500 images for a total of 180 seconds of video.

My thoughts were that, anytime the walkthrough pauses, I could just duplicate those images (numbering properly of course) and then fit them into the sequence in AE. That way Cinema wouldn't have to render as many duplicate images and it would be faster.

All this brings up three questions.
1- Is the above a good idea?
2- I'm assuming I 'save' the .aec file first but do I then need to decide on the exact number of total frames (images) I'll be doing before I save the .aec file?
3- What am I missing here?

Thanks again everyone.

-Edit, Sorry Brinda, I just reread your post and noticed you kind of anticipated what I just asked. So, if AE updates automatically, then do I save a new .aec file each time I do a partial render and replace the 'old' .aec file in AE as I go?

[tcastudios]

If you want a still in AE you just import the pict you want and -don't- choose pictseries(If it is numbered in a folder).
It is then a regular pict you can use in AE, and drag it out to the length you need.

Cheers
Lennart

[brinda]

Depending on how you're rendering, I really wouldn't sweat the .aec file. It's definitely handy if you're rendering out a bunch of multipass channels because it automatically assembles all the passes with the appropriate blending modes activated. But otherwise it's not really essential.

For a simple image sequence (non-multipass) I'd just pull it in manually in AE (the "image sequence" checkbox I mentioned before).

BTW, you could probably do the render as one pass. In Cinema, just ease your motion to a stop (using f-curves) and then in AE just re-import that "still" frame as a single image and hold it for as long as you need. You know what I mean?...render the whole sequence and just note at which frames the camera is stopped. Then just pull in those frames (without the image sequence box checked) again separately.

Hope that helps,
Brinda

[Tiziano]

:bowdown:
Great idea Brinda. That makes a lot of sense and would save a lot of time renaming all the copies of the stills.

I will need the multipass though (I think) because I'm adding rotos of people walking around in the scene. Tried to do this directly in Cinema and it worked but the imported (animated) texture of the roto had too many problems. In that I'm using Composite Wizard to blur and Image Lounge to do the cast shadows I figured it was better to just add them in AE. Another thread I started a week or two ago confirmed this.

I'd did some tests with the image sequence and it ends up a little jerky, not sure why. I'm doing what amounts to a quarter head turn in 90 frames. Haven't messed with F-Curves enough I guess.

So, on to more test... Thanks again to all and Lennart still love that cam (BANKING).

[Tiziano]

The 90 frame sequence I tried worked fine but I can't get rid of the 'jerkyness' in it. I took the .aec file into AE and rendered out a QT movie. Jerky. Settings were '720 x 480 D1 NTSC,' 'Best' and 'Lossless.'

I'm wondering, based on a thread a few below this one, perhaps it's QT? Will this jerkyness be present in the final NTSC DVD?

[brinda]

My guess is that what you're seeing is related to compression (or the lack thereof), and not the render itself. Trying to playback uncompressed D1 footage in realtime would require a pretty beefy machine. The final DVD will be mpeg encoded (compressed) so it will playback fine.

The RAM preview in AE is probably a more accurate representation of your final output. I would also think you'd get playback in FinalCut (although maybe not with uncompressed D1...you might need to bring in it with DV compression).

Anyway, you could also alway throw a copy of the animation into iDVD and burn a test disc to check out on your TV. Kind of an expensive RAM preview I know, but if this is a commerical job, it might help you sleep better at night seeing it playback properly in it's final format ;)

-Dave

[Tiziano]

Thanks again Brinda,
I re-encoded using Sorenson 3 with QTPro and the resulting movie only had one little jerk in it. :bounce:

I was going down the route you suggested as your reply came through, only with DVDSP. Hadn't thought of the RAM preview in AE (still learning). We'll give it a try too.

So it seems that previewing my final project may be a little more work than I expected :sad:

But, sure beats waiting for a lab to process film huh.

Just a thought here, I can save a disk image with DVDSP and Apple's DVD Player will play it just like a DVD! Might work...?

[Tiziano]

Hi guys,
Having some trouble with the Cinema/AE integration.

Not sure what to render really. Multipass, not multipass, which channel if multipass?

Per the start of this thread, I have a room that I'm simply rotating the camera around (just like swiveling it on a tripod). 1000 frames or so. I've rendered picture sequences and an AE file, just one pass. This (the AE file) I bring into AE. Once there I can't quite figure out how to pull in some roto's I've done. I know this is a Cinema forum, not an AE forum but my problem might be that I haven't done a multipass render out of Cinema (therefore, this thread). I notice the 'Depth' channel option when I select 'multipass.' Is this what I need to do to access the 3d aspect of the scene in AE and be able to place my QT roto's at the correct 'depth'?

I just did a 2 hour render (450 frames) and I think it may have been a waste of time. Rather not waste any more. I read the Cinema/AE PDF and I think I get it but can't seem to work it into my situation.

EDIT-
I figured it out. The roto in AE was way, way off the screen. Don't know why but on a whim I thought I'd zoom out as far as possible... and there it was! The cg room is 160' x 80' so perhaps that's why the roto was 'lost.' The test WIP (highly compressed) is accessed through a Flash file here: www.jmtype.com for anyone who is interested.

[CGTalk Moderation]

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.