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Self-Designer
02-21-2005, 07:08 PM
http://www.curiouslabs.com/go/poser6

Well, they put it in their site, but in a matter of fact, there's nothing new that wasn't told before... Anyway, they're talking about revealing more and more slowly and painly :p

eliseu gouveia
02-21-2005, 09:57 PM
This realy upsets me to no end, why all the secrecy?

Why not reveal all the new features already, instead of testing and wearing peopleīs patience down with this move?

Self-Designer
02-21-2005, 11:07 PM
2 words: enlarging awareness.

richcz3
02-22-2005, 05:26 AM
Their Ambient Occlusion needs some work judging from the image posted on their site. Other than that, I guess someone in marketing figures users will revisit the site week in and week out.

f97ao
02-22-2005, 01:55 PM
So it's all about rendering things.
Like most of you say rendering isn't what I would use Poser for really (but yes it could be useful)
I haven't used the last posers that much, but what I always thought was that poser is a nice idea, but has serious flaws in the basic use.

For example, controling the camera is really quite terrible. It's not easy at all to make it behave like you want.
There should be way way more control over the characters. Good looking characters has to be like the most important thing at all don't you say?
Perhaps it's better now (i mainly tried poser4 and also some poser5), but last I tried it I found it hard to make the characters look really unique, they looked pretty much the same all of them.

Also all the extra tools were really lacking and didn't work well. Clothing for example, I would expect a large library of clothes, that actually behaves correctly. And it should be extremely quick to adjust the clochting, different coats, hats, gloves, fantasy costume, hey people riding on horses, swords etc.

What I would like is to be able to quickly puzzle together a complex 3d character with the clothes and look I want without having to model everything myself. then I import him into 3d, adjust and add more details, then render several versions bring them over to a 2d program and use in my 2d work. Nice would be if things like bones would also just work in 3d.

/Andreas

richcz3
02-22-2005, 04:51 PM
I think their focus on rendering is to update the look that many feel is typical Poser.
My guess is that a significant part of the Poser market produces still images for project illlustrations and general art. Allot of that art is rendered in other 3D programs.
Maybe the long drawn out features being showcased every week will finally include an updated interface with new more professional animation tools.

eliseu gouveia
02-22-2005, 05:13 PM
IMHO, the "Poser look" doesnīt stem from the renderer per se since a good Poser user (prior to Firely) prefers to import the model to Vue dīEsprit or Bryce where she/he can get a better render.
The "Poser look" comes from the folks who open the default male/female/Vicky/Michael characters, strike a pose and hit render without so much as tweaking/morphing the character.

Done well, a Poser model can almost pass as a Final Fantasy-TSW character (Iīm pretty sure Iīve seen it happen on occasion).

The key expression here being "if done well".

DirtySkillet
02-22-2005, 05:19 PM
The question is, who uses poser to render? Seriously, everyone imports into other programs. Because all the rest of your scene is somewhere else. So... whats the point? You might want the meshes to be cleaner or something. And I want subdivision! Not like Im gonna get it.

Ibah
02-22-2005, 05:50 PM
i have seen some good skin renders within poser.. it looked really good. but i think its way better to do in other packeges, beccause there you can also animate it correctly, rig it well etc.

you never know what you want to do with you character later, so why let it stay in poser.. if you have maya or max or some toher packege.. why would you stay in poser.

i think poser has to work on there tools, instead of rendering.. just make the characters better.. better textures going with it, and better close, and deformations etc.

richcz3
02-22-2005, 05:52 PM
The question is, who uses poser to render? Seriously, everyone imports into other programs. Because all the rest of your scene is somewhere else. So... whats the point? You might want the meshes to be cleaner or something. And I want subdivision! Not like Im gonna get it.
I feel yours and eliseu gouveia are pretty much the case. I know that Vue 5 imports the soft cloth dynamics and hair from Poser 5. The only reason why I believe they would spend time developing their renderer is to make Poser 6 a more complete package for the price. Like I said, the long rollout of features will probably conclude with more advanced animation tools.

DanSilverman
02-22-2005, 06:15 PM
Like I said, the long rollout of features will probably conclude with more advanced animation tools.

I hope so. I also hope they improve the overall way you pose your model in Poser. It is not all that easy to get a good pose.

Caine777
02-22-2005, 07:26 PM
I'm really sick of people badmouthing Poser. Ok, so you can make things that look better if you spend three years learning 3dStudio or Maya, and dedicate yourself to studying anatomy and character modelling - but not everyone has the luxury of being able to do that. Not everyone can go to a university to study 3d modelling. Not everyone can afford $3,000+ programs that they have the time to use 5 hours a week. And you can get great results from Poser. How many crappy 3dStudio renders have you seen? Does that mean that it's impossible to make something beautiful with 3d Studio? No. here are just a few examples of - in my opinion - great looking Poser images. There are both realistic and more cartoony images included. If you take the time to look at them, I'm sure you'll see why so many people use Poser (some images contain nudity):


Check out the first one especially - it's not even Michael3, it's Michael 2 with a great texture. Michael 3 has even more morphs, more polygons and better textures:

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+WCPSJv2qw+1082261779+&v_index=3&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+WCPSJv2qw+1053746751+&v_index=3&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+WCPSJv2qw+1059471690+&v_index=3&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+iIhKc3DYM+1109022323+&v_index=5&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+YKRJfgHLY+1108998591+&v_index=5&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+6MJlLzeQY+1108770628+&v_index=5&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+wsDpK16WI+1108680351+&v_index=5&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+7Gkk5vRjA+1108656636+&v_index=5&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+4mF9ywah2+1108616385+&v_index=5&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+jK2SOa3pc+1108546538+&v_index=5&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+jK2SOa3pc+1108534392+&v_index=5&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+PK3uVwzdA+1108456454+&v_index=5&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+jK2SOa3pc+1108349422+&v_index=5&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+rIgcp2fsp+1108167171+&v_index=5&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+wsDpK16WI+1107838754+&v_index=5&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+7Gkk5vRjA+1107641529+&v_index=5&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+otbwSxgPI+1034908781+&v_index=2&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+6x6HOvMWA+1099873670+&v_index=3&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+NONw9NvQI+1068631758+&v_index=3&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+Sv9WY8XMp+1064677235+&v_index=3&nd=1107943049

http://www.3dcommune.com/3d/galview.mv?Poser+jVPpHgIAg+1094980857+&v_index=3&nd=1107943049

Ok, that's enough for now. ;)

richcz3
02-22-2005, 08:00 PM
Relax a little.
I don't see anyone bad mouthing Poser. Most are simply looking forward to better tools that have yet to be announced.

DanSilverman
02-22-2005, 08:40 PM
I'm really sick of people badmouthing Poser. Ok, so you can make things that look better if you spend three years learning 3dStudio or Maya, and dedicate yourself to studying anatomy and character modelling - but not everyone has the luxury of being able to do that. Not everyone can go to a university to study 3d modelling. Not everyone can afford $3,000+ programs that they have the time to use 5 hours a week.

I didn't go to university to learn 3D and now I own my own 3D company.

Most 3D apps don't cost $3000:

- Modo = $695
- Silo3D = $109
- Softimage XSI (base edition) = $499
- And you can look up the rest of the prices.

3D Studio MAX appears to be about the only 3D modeling application that is over $3000. As a matter of fact, Poser costs more than some 3D applications (Silo, Hash, for example).

As was pointed out, I don't think that anyone here was bashing Poser. Quite the opposite.

eliseu gouveia
02-22-2005, 09:33 PM
One can do plenty with what is usually considered low end stuff.

Bryce, for instances, has such a ridiculously low price in comparison with what it can deliver that I myself ran outta excuses for not owning it.

Thereīs no need to be defensive, people fish with what they have.
If you canīt afford Max, you can always gather a couple cheaper stuff like Poser, Bryce, Vue, ZBrush and manage to deliver work with a minimum quality.

Caine777
02-22-2005, 09:46 PM
As was pointed out, I don't think that anyone here was bashing Poser. Quite the opposite.
If you check out the previous "news about Poser"-threads, you'll see a fair amount of Poser-bashing, mostly from people who either consider it a toy, or think it's cheating to use Poser and not model the characters yourself.

eliseu gouveia
02-22-2005, 09:50 PM
Well, we can sit here discussing the program or we can sit here discussing peopleīs personal views on the program.

One leads to constructive debate, the other leads to fiery diatribes.
Pick a choice.

DanSilverman
02-22-2005, 09:54 PM
If you check out the previous "news about Poser"-threads, you'll see a fair amount of Poser-bashing ...

This isn't the [iprevious[/i] "news about Poser" thread. This is this thread.

Caine777
02-23-2005, 12:51 AM
Ok, so what do I want for Poser6? Well, the render features are actually quite nice. I use Bryce to render, but Bryce has no support for radiosity or displacement maps, for instance, and it's hard to get the look of wet skin in Bryce. The Firefly renderer is actually quite good, and I might start rendering in Poser if it's easy enough to import and texture objects. And if it's easier to position the lights and the camera, of course. It would be nice to have even more advanced rendering options, like subsurface scattering, to make certain parts of the body look more natural.

But what I'm really looking for is better tools for posing and animation. A more natural movement of certain body parts, like making the breasts bounce in a natural way when a female character is running. "Elastic constraints" would be nice too, to simulate elastic objects like a bra or a pair of latex pants better. Some kind of ragdoll physics would be very appreciated. Imagine setting up a character that's supposed to be thrown back by an explosion - just assign ragdoll physics to the character, set up a forcefield and you're good to go.

And of course I'm looking forward to Victoria and Michael v.4. Can't wait to see what features they will have.

I wonder if Bryce6 will have better animation tools? Bryce and Poser have always had a very close connection, and I'd love to see an "import animation" tool in Bryce.

richcz3
02-23-2005, 01:06 AM
Caine777
I bought Vue 5 Infinite the other week and I am using the DeEsprit demo in the meantime. It really does a solid job with GI in its rendering and imports Poser 5 models with all atributes as far as I can tell on their pages. I did this image test with a Lightwave model the other day for some scenes I am designing. Price wise I think Vue is probably the best buy to features than Bryce at the moment and the features are easily accesable and pretty straight forward. I haven't imported any Poser 5 material but it has allot of potential here.

http://www.digitalworks.8m.com//Forumpix/hoix_River_700x.jpg

Caine777
02-23-2005, 02:52 AM
Caine777
I bought Vue 5 Infinite the other week and I am using the DeEsprit demo in the meantime. It really does a solid job with GI in its rendering and imports Poser 5 models with all atributes as far as I can tell on their pages. I did this image test with a Lightwave model the other day for some scenes I am designing. Price wise I think Vue is probably the best buy to features than Bryce at the moment and the features are easily accesable and pretty straight forward. I haven't imported any Poser 5 material but it has allot of potential here.


It does sound interesting, but I've tried Vue, and I just don't like it. Besides, I've hardly ever seen any good renders done with the program. But perhaps Vue 5 is better than the version I tried...must have been Vue 4.

f97ao
02-23-2005, 04:42 AM
The main concern here is it seems they don't focus enough on the core strengths of Poser.

Animation would be nice, but is not important for me. What I need to have is better humans from the package, and a better interface that doesn't take so much space and time to give you good results.

/Andreas

stew
02-23-2005, 12:12 PM
Patience is a virtue ;)
The full feature list isn't public yet, so relax.

eliseu gouveia
02-23-2005, 02:28 PM
Patience is a virtue ;)
The full feature list isn't public yet, so relax.

And yet theyīre already accepting orders.
Whoīs gonna buy something when they donīt know what theyīre purchasing?

Donīt get me wrong, Iīve ordered mine as well but that was admiteddly a crazy jump in the dark (takes some stones to purchase a "version .0" software these days) and I only did it because I feel like Iīve milked Poser 3 to the bone.

Caine777
02-23-2005, 02:35 PM
It does sound interesting, but I've tried Vue, and I just don't like it. Besides, I've hardly ever seen any good renders done with the program. But perhaps Vue 5 is better than the version I tried...must have been Vue 4.

I stand corrected. I've tried Vue 5, and if Bryce 6 doesn't come with some serious improvements in the rendering and animation departments, I'm switching to Vue. I've always wanted HDRI support and radiosity :)

mushroomgod
02-23-2005, 03:00 PM
And yet theyīre already accepting orders.
Whoīs gonna buy something when they donīt know what theyīre purchasing?

modo modo modo...

jddog
02-23-2005, 03:08 PM
Most are simply looking forward to better tools that have yet to be announced.

mmm did you see the Special edition ?
This unique Special Edition will only be available to celebrate the launch of Poser 6. It includes Poser 6, the Winter Queen Figure Pack, and Shade 7 designer LE.

Shade (anyway is just a light edition) can be an interesting tool to work with...

jdd

DanSilverman
02-23-2005, 03:24 PM
Shade (anyway is just a light edition) can be an interesting tool to work with...

I would almost pay Curious Labs to not give me Shade with my order of Poser 6 ;) .

I ordered the special deal where you get Poser 5 and then get Poser 6 when it is available. Shade came with it. I am somewhat of a 3D modeling app junky and just love to try them out. Shade was unistalled almost as fast as I installed it. I was very excited to get a look at this application (before installing it) and very sad after playing with it for a few moments. I felt like I was placed in a time machine and sent back about seven years in time to play with modelers that were emerging at that time. Ugh.

jeffthomann
02-23-2005, 03:31 PM
Motionbuilder + Lightwave's Modeller = what Poser should have been... could be someday?

jddog
02-23-2005, 03:31 PM
I felt like I was placed in a time machine and sent back about seven years in time to play with modelers that were emerging at that time. Ugh.

:scream: lol... ok I can understand you, but someone can be happy to work with it if he can afford a good 3D graphic application. Anyway... shade remember me the time of Adobe Dimesion... :D

jdd

richcz3
02-23-2005, 03:52 PM
Motionbuilder + Lightwave's Modeller = what Poser should have been... could be someday?
You have to try the Maestro plugin for Lightwave.
I was rigging my fifth character last night. While animating I realized just how archaic the Poser interface has become.

spirozero
03-03-2005, 04:18 AM
Poser 6 will be released on March 21, 2005.

All hail Poser!

eliseu gouveia
03-04-2005, 12:53 AM
Latest development: Itīll have SSS.

Hey, maybe people will stop importing Poser scennes into Bryce/Vue and start importing their Bryce/Vue scennes to Poser.

soulhill
03-04-2005, 04:50 AM
I've always found people's expectations for Poser to be strange. Complaints about the Poser "look" have been rife for years and nearly always stem from use of the default characters. This happens so often because Poser is so easy to use, not because of a problem with the product itself.

I spent two years animating a short film in Poser and I know well it's shortcomings. I am very much looking forward to seeing what Poser 6 has to offer.

stew
03-04-2005, 10:12 AM
I fully agree. "That Poser look" is nothing inherent in the program but mainly users not being able to change the default. They use the default figures, the default light set and often ignore some basic posing rules (use of asymmetry and balance, hip vs shoulder rotation, etc). Since Poser 5 you're not limited to lambert/phong any more, but still I barely see people using other shaders or specularty maps.

eliseu gouveia
03-04-2005, 01:58 PM
I wonder why you donīt hear often around here from the R&D folks who work at Curious Labs or Daz, you know, whoever designed and created Victoria and Michael, UVMapped, textured and created morph targets for them...

Yes, yes, thereīs the stygma of working on the likes of Poser, Bryce or Vue, but theyīre still modelers, texturers.....................................CG people.

stew
03-04-2005, 02:14 PM
Well, my name's in the Poser 5 splash screen. But I won't be able to answer any P6 questions before the release, I'm afraid.

Berserga
03-04-2005, 03:41 PM
Hey Stefan! Didn't know you hung out here!

Anyway as I said in the other thread, Poser is a tool like any other 3d app. It has definate shortcomings, but with patience (and the helpful hints of guys like Stew here) You can get a lot of stuff done in poser with patience.

I'm pretty stoked about the new features... and fairly optimistic because of CL's new parent company. I hope they spit out the full list of features soon. (Texture baking, network rendering, Default charas that look like homo sapiens? :p)

rooktooky
03-04-2005, 06:38 PM
Why not update the posing controls? They can be so unwieldly especially when trying to match morphs. I paid alot of money for both Poser and content from DAZ and I barely use it. How about live symmetrical posing and morphs of figures. Almost can't believe it's not available already. But soon, very soon, Zbrush 2 will change all of that.

stew
03-04-2005, 08:00 PM
How about live symmetrical posing and morphs of figures. Almost can't believe it's not available already.
You can do that with Python scripts. Not sure if something like that is out in the wild, but it's certainly possible.

stew
03-04-2005, 08:01 PM
Hey Stefan! Didn't know you hung out here!
I'm usually hiding in the programming, rendering or C4D forums. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to go through all the news threads every day.

rooktooky
03-04-2005, 09:17 PM
I have given up writing and programming due to Carpal Tunnel Syndrome so any software out there must allow me to do it manually. Looking at those subsurface pics, I'm finally beginning to understand what it is. Even so I watched Shrek2 and I can't pic it out from the soft shadowing or the global illumination.

Self-Designer
03-11-2005, 11:24 AM
It seems as if they finaly give the whole list of the new features: http://www.curiouslabs.com/go/poser6

eliseu gouveia
03-23-2005, 07:06 AM
Released yesterday, March the 21st.

Tirjasdyn
03-23-2005, 07:20 PM
Hrm...waiting on my boxed version...

As for who renders in Poser...I do..since version 5. Now with shade...(standard version...has much more than the LE version) I started rendering equally in both...(still learning shade) the firefly renderer is lodes of fun and lends itself well to still renders you plan to paint on.

zukezuko
03-24-2005, 03:43 AM
oh! the master noob software is out!
exelent

eliseu gouveia
03-24-2005, 05:52 AM
oh! the master noob software is out!
excelent

We canīt all be Stahlberg. :cool:

Personally, Iīm buying it.
Itīs cheap, easy to use and looks like fun (I bet I can make my 6 years old niece proficient at it in six months. Five if her younger sister joins the fray).

Pair it with my Vue 4 and I should have some fun days ahead doing that short film Iīve always dreamt with, instead of blowing away my youth pushing vertexes (http://pwp.netcabo.pt/0681069201/maiden1.gif). ;)

Just MHO. :)

DanSilverman
03-24-2005, 06:56 AM
oh! the master noob software is out!
exelent

I really hate this sort of attitude. There are many uses for Poser. When I was doing a lot of 2D work (book covers and the like) I would open Poser and pose the figure in the pose I needed for the image I was creating. That then became a quick reference for my sketch. For situations like this, Poser becomes an unlimited amount of posable models that can be viewed from any angle. For this alone it is worth the money.

JMcWilliams
03-24-2005, 01:13 PM
Personally, Iīm buying it.
Itīs cheap, easy to use and looks like fun (I bet I can make my 6 years old niece proficient at it in six months. Five if her younger sister joins the fray).
Pair it with my Vue 4 and I should have some fun days ahead doing that short film Iīve always dreamt with, instead of blowing away my youth pushing vertexes (http://pwp.netcabo.pt/0681069201/maiden1.gif). ;)
Just MHO. :)

yeh, god forbid it take any effort eh? :rolleyes:
Within reason I agree that this is just a tool and the artist matters, but there are so many out there that use it as more than a crutch, they rely on the prefabs and without them they would flounder. Poser models still just look like poser models (if all the examples on the site are anything to go by).

It's a sign of the times I guess, instant gratification.
It's like music.... why compose anything yourself when you can stick some precomposed loops together in acid? hence we get thousands of tonedeaf people producing mindless, tuneless droning nonsense that all sounds the same where they think sticking a flange filter over the top is adequete song development.

I think this sort of thing does not contribute in a positive way to art. sorry.
MHO

//Flame proof suit on

DanSilverman
03-24-2005, 01:57 PM
I think this sort of thing does not contribute in a positive way to art. sorry.

What a broad, sweeping statement.

You are right in that Poser is a tool, but you are wrong in saying that it does not contribute anything possitive to art. As I pointed out before, I use Poser as a posing tool. Instead of a wooden maniquin on my desk, I open Poser and pose a male, female or child and render out a shot for reference work. Using the head/face composer tool I can create a variety of face types for reference as well. They have presets for various ethnic looks and the like. This is really a helpful tool to create reference images to draw from.

A friend of mine uses Poser figures to create a basic body type and then they export it out to use in MAX. Since he creates low-poly models for games, the model from Poser (which is very high-poly) is used as a 3D reference while he works. He can model the low-poly model around the Poser model using it as a guide for proportions and the like.

Yes, Poser is a tool and, yes, it does have its uses and can positivily contribute to art. Your initial statement is like condemning brushes because some people paint garbage with them.

JMcWilliams
03-24-2005, 02:09 PM
Sure, I agree....
But every example you are using is where the person is using poser models as referance... which is not what it is intended for, if the brochure on the website is anything to go by.

It's about quick, cheap, easy prefab 3d for the masses.

Sorry about the sweeping statement though ;)

zukezuko
03-24-2005, 02:39 PM
yeah
poser models will always look like poser models
and you will never realize the beauty of creating something by your own
by using poser or endorphin or mocap etc..

after going through the sometimes painfull process of modeling or keyframing
you can then say : i did this, this is mine
that's a very exiting moment

be original
dont be a copy

Berserga
03-24-2005, 02:45 PM
You clearly don't understand the software at all.

Think of Poser base figures as something similar to Pixar's "Universal man" background character used in the Incredibles (and not just in the background). You take the basic figures (In most cases 3rd party figures are used as they tend to have more options) and reshape them with hundreds of morph dials. You can get an extreme amount of variety out of the better base figures if you put the effort into it. Some people don't make much effort, and that has only led to the many misconceptions about Poser.

If you love modelling by all means pursue your craft, But me I prefer animation, so If someone can get me a shortcut then that's great. You keyframe animate in Poser just like any other app, with both FK, and IK. It's a bit primitive, but it works. There are plenty of talented modellers making content for Poser. some of it is designed to be used "as is" some is designed to be reshaped by the end user.

Poser does not have a "Make art button" That I am aware of.

You must light, surface, and animate your characters just as in any other 3d app, The only thing you don't HAVE to do is rig your own character, though you CAN and many people do model their own figures in an outside modeller and rig them for use in poser. ( There is quite a thriving market for poser content much of which is high quality.) You can also do a lot with poser's built in magnetic deformers.

Poser as of version 5 has had a nice REYES renderer, It has a VERY nice node based shader system, it has Dynamic strand based hair and cloth.

In Version 6 they have added quite a few nice lighting options.

Poser like many other apps also has Python scripting, and there have been some very good scripts produced.

About the only things Poser is missing for an animator on a tight budget is a modeller (Plenty of good free ones) and a partical system, But I'd rather do FX in Mirage anyway. Oh and Poser 6 has many new features aimed at compositing. :buttrock:

There are bad things about the software, of course. The joint system is primitive by todays standards, (To keep backwards compatibility) It has some legacy bugs, and obviously the new version has some last minute bugs that are gonna need squashed. But I'm pretty confident that CL's new parent company will get the job done.

All of this stuff for just a couple of hundred bucks.

But Damn it! where is that Make art button!? :p

cnewski
03-24-2005, 03:01 PM
So it's all about rendering things.

Personally, i'm disappointed in Poser 6. It is all about the rendering. Why so much focus on that, and include Shade 7 LE which would be used as a renderer anyway? I was hoping for some sort of network rendering support, dual processor support, some sort of export to Maya or similar package, decent animation controls, hell even a newer interface. Has anyone asked if this new version will work with Body Studio or GestureMax? It's all fine and dandy that we can render nicer images, but guess what, it also means longer rendering times. We don't just render stills at my company, we render close to 5000 frames at a time. How are these feasible? We have a renderfarm, but do you know how time consuming it is to split that out manually? I have a Maya background and it irritates me that I have to use Poser's poor timeline and graph editor to create my animations. We only use Poser because of our short timeframe, otherwise we would use Maya. Curious Labs help me out here. I'll gladly pay $1000+ for some sort of Poser Pro version that gives you the network, dual processor features with some better animation control that is standard with other programs. I do understand that this software is cheaper than the more advanced ones, hence the limited features. But why are we limiting Poser this way, don't you want to get up there with the big boys? Or do you just want to be the runt of the CG industry?

Berserga
03-24-2005, 03:12 PM
That's a good question. I think that they feel that their bread and butter market is in hobbyists, unfortunately. Most of whom don't animate. But your question seems to indicate that you think only studios should be able to afford 3d software... wow Gee whiz let;'s all just go back to the pre Video toaster days when Only Big hollywood studios could afford to do this stuff. :p

I don't know if they are working on an export plugin for Maya, But I think one is in the works for Lightwave, and Max.

Since you mention time... Let me guess You are the kind of guys that take all the DEFAULT Posette, and dork models that show up on TV or in print every once in a while, furthering the myth of Poser as a Plastic doll posing tool. :)

JMcWilliams
03-24-2005, 03:12 PM
Fair enough :D Of course there is no 'Make art' button, i never meant to suggest that there was...
On another note, anyone here in the UK see the Paul o' Grady show? They were talking about animation at one point and he expressed the view that computer animation, as opposed to traditional hand drawn films like Snow White, is ‘cheating’. Oh how I was thinking that out of date misconception was dying out.... I fought against it throughout college, yet it is still here it seems :( :rolleyes:

Grrrrr :twisted:

Berserga
03-24-2005, 03:16 PM
They can convert Brad Bird... there is hope! :D

Pete2003
03-24-2005, 03:33 PM
JmcWilliams : Yeah I caught that comment too. My God how I cringed! Im afraid that viewpoint is still well and truly here it seems. Ive got a mate who thinks the amount of work I get done in a day is probably due to how fast I can repeatedly press the 'Enter' key:rolleyes:

Pete.

Sil3
03-24-2005, 03:38 PM
oh! the master noob software is out!
exelent

Tell that to this guy:


http://www.martinmurphy.ca/dancers.html

http://www.martinmurphy.ca/autumnflirts.html

and by the way, this images where created in 99 i believe, first one is Poser and PS, second one is Poser and Bryce...yes the two master noobs software ;)

Martin works at ILM now...see what master noobs software do to people?

stew
03-24-2005, 03:42 PM
yeah
poser models will always look like poser models
and you will never realize the beauty of creating something by your own
by using poser or endorphin or mocap etc..

after going through the sometimes painfull process of modeling or keyframing
you can then say : i did this, this is mine
that's a very exiting moment

be original
dont be a copy
Well...add $109 for Silo or $0 for Wings on top of Poser. Then model your own character, take it to Poser, rig and animate it. Light it, shade it, render. And then you did this, and it's yours - no copy.

Like this guy did:
http://www.soulhill.com/DIFFERENT.mov

Yes you can use clip-art models and animation in Poser. But you don't have to.

eliseu gouveia
03-24-2005, 03:55 PM
yeh, god forbid it take any effort eh? :rolleyes:

Yes, Iīm a hobbyist.
Like many out there, we just want to create fun short films or stills.
If I can find a program that cuts the burden, why shouldnīt I use?
The tool is there, so why wonīt I use it?
This reminds me the diatribe when the photographic cameras first came out.

You seem to belong to that group of people who think that all Poser models look alike.
I have seen Poser models with morphs and textures on them that looked straight outta Final Fantasy.
Itīs only in the hands of the user.
If she/he merely opens Poser, poses the default male/female and renders away, OF COURSE all the results will end up looking alike.
Thatīs the difference between the amateur and the artist.
The artist takes the time to perfect his work, to make it unique, to create that neat texture, to light it just right.

When I go to the store, there are dozens of brushes there.
They all look alike.
But what I do with my brush is different from what my upstairs neighbour do with his.

Same example applies.

JMcWilliams
03-24-2005, 04:41 PM
Good points :D as I said, I agree that it's all about the artist.

I guess i just have more respect for completely 'made from scratch' animation. I'm working on a personal animation project with a friend myself and sure these things take a long time but it is the satifaction of it being completed that is the drive. I'm not gonna crit the artwork that Sil3 posted links too, but It certainly didn't blow me away and still had that bryce look on one of those pieces...on further inspection of his site i did notice however that on most of the other images, he models his own stuff in lightwave, does texturing.... and I would venture that the best images on his site are the ones he modelled/textured, not the bryce/poser works. I would suspect that he got into ILM because of those skills, not his poser skills ;)

In anycase... Good luck whatever you want to use.

Lets all just try and break the horrible "computers do the work" attitude/misconception that some people have . :D

JMcWilliams
03-24-2005, 04:43 PM
JmcWilliams : Yeah I caught that comment too. My God how I cringed! Im afraid that viewpoint is still well and truly here it seems. Ive got a mate who thinks the amount of work I get done in a day is probably due to how fast I can repeatedly press the 'Enter' key:rolleyes:

Pete.

yeh, whenever I meet people like that, I tend to go off on a rant and explain how it's all done... I make sure they do not leave with the same misconception! :D Thankfully I find it is less common nowadays.

gigatron
03-24-2005, 05:18 PM
Well all I'm going to say is that using poser and bryce you will not get a job, maybe some low end private thing for a couple of low-end jobs.. but other than that no one will hire you... you have to be able to make your own stuff, any 3d that is automatic and click-based sucks and is not desirable... sure it may LOOK cool that you have a realistic model, but in reality you didn't really make it ... you just tweaked it... I mean to someone who does not want a professional job in the industry it's ok, it's fun and all that... but to get hired... how would one expect to get hired by making the same models over and over again more or less...

At least I myself am unaware of people hiring people who click through poser for models :( I mean I wish it was easy, I'd love to just get money for little work.... that'd be awesome... no one likes to work... plus as someone pointed out, many results coming from max or maya can suck, and they can't comprae to poser results.. but then again.. ah well think about it all.. I don't know...

It's all good... thing is i want to make money for my family... I'm not in it just for fun.... easier + make money is always nice...

JMcWilliams
03-24-2005, 05:32 PM
It's all good... thing is i want to make money for my family... I'm not in it just for fun.... easier + make money is always nice...

Nothing worth doing is ever easy. :D If it's easy why pay you to do it?

eliseu gouveia
03-24-2005, 05:35 PM
But thatīs the whole point.
We canīt ALL go to the CG biz.
That doesnīt mean we shouldnīt be able to use it.

Once again Iīll use the cameras example.
There are cameras everywhere.
Everybody buys them.
Does that makes everybody professional photographs?

Everyone can buy camcorders and make their home movies.
That doesnīt make them Spielbergs.

Same thing happens with Poser.
Itīs cheap, easy-to-use CG and it delivers good results.

It suits hobbyists and it suits professionals in need of a two-click solution.

stew
03-24-2005, 05:49 PM
Well all I'm going to say is that using poser and bryce you will not get a job, maybe some low end private thing for a couple of low-end jobs.. but other than that no one will hire you... you have to be able to make your own stuff, .
Not everyone wants to get a modelling job, you know. There's nothing wrong with an animation or lighting reel that uses pre-made meshes.

Berserga
03-24-2005, 06:19 PM
Yeah when I read posts like that I just know it's some student. :D

Do you really think you are going to get a job at a big house and carry a project from Modelling-thru rigging-thru shading-thru lighting-thru animation. No You would get assigned to do one of those things on a tiny little bit of whatever project the studio is working on.

Don't get me wrong, Having a varied skill set is good, and you might wear several hats on a project if you are good at several things, but if you think "Pros make everything from scratch." you would be grossly mistaken.

As an independent animator, you have to wear ALL the hats, but I'm not a great modeller, and don't enjoy it much. I'd rather concentrate on making the movie. Now if Daz, or some other 3rd party company let's me get versitile models which I can reshape, and texture... Getting the creativity of character design without the mechanical drugery of pushing Vertices, and struggling with skeletons.why Shouldn't I take advantage of that?

And trust me there is still plenty of Hard work to be had. Anyone who has ever done keyframe animation knows that. Add in the nightmares of Dynamics and you will be bald quite quickly from pulling your hair out. It's still easier than when I used to hand draw each frame WITH A MOUSE on the Amiga.... But I'm just a lazy poser user. :banghead:

Do you also look down on L33t Maya, and Max users who use models they bought off Turbo squid to get a project done on time?

JMcWilliams
03-24-2005, 07:01 PM
well, i do a lot of interface design, but I've also had to do modelling, texturing, fx, mockups, concepts .... so yes, i've found we all have to turn our hands to lots of things.

Do I look down on great maya modellers who use models from turbosquid? Not if they credit it.... but if they stick it in a scene and render it and say "look! i'm an artist" then thats not right :D

cnewski
03-24-2005, 07:09 PM
I agree, I think this software is geared to the hobbyist market or to those that need quick human-like images for print or reference. From my point of view, I was hoping with word of Poser 6 coming out, there might be a solution of using Poser at a more professional level, specifically with animation.

And no, I'm not one of those who uses its default poses to animate. I have a traditional animation background, so I was animating on paper before a computer could do it for you. Unfortunately, my employer requires a certain type of animation with a very fast turnaround. It's like...

"Pop quiz, Hotshot! You HAVE 2 weeks to create 2 minutes of animation. It has to include 2-4 characters, a background, you need to record their dialog, lipsync them, and render everything all by yourself. What do you do? What do you do?"

Now try doing this every 2 weeks with different characters and different scenes each time. What's the best solution?

gigatron
03-24-2005, 07:21 PM
That is why we must be realistic when evaluating a piece of software... I'm not bashing it, it's quite impressive looking (although it has that... look.. i dont know how to describe it..)

However, if you are a for fun person.. well why not.. have some fun.. but be realistic... if you want to produce 3d artwork on a professional level, this is unacceptable.. unless you use it as a base, and you model other elements (like clothing, gadgetery, etc.... but just use the model as a base) and on top of that animate, etc... well i don't know maybe...

Or as one person noted above, if you use it to experiment on your lightning and animations and this is your specialization, not modeling...

But... any click click automatic software is not your ability to make something but rather the ability to change a few variables and have fun...

Ah well I don't know... whatever.. I mumble alot... but really isn't it better to produce something slightly crappy but from scratch than click a few buttons and keep getting the same results, or instead improve those crappy attempts and over time become better than what you get with poser.... and truly say "this is my work" not a computer generated manipulated work.

Berserga
03-24-2005, 07:31 PM
So if a photographer doesn't CREATE the humans he photographs, or their clothes, but he does alaborately stage and light the scene, he is not an artist he's just "taking pictures"? Is that it?

I have absolutely NO idea what you mean about click click automatic software. Fundamentally Poser is no different than Lightwave, maya, or any other 3d app in how it functions, it just has fewer features and no modeler. There is no magic make art button. Geez I just don't think you understand the software at all.

It's low end, it has problems, but it is a real 3d app, and the cost/performance ratio is good.

Kid-Mesh
03-24-2005, 07:32 PM
... Ah well I don't know... whatever.. I mumble alot... but really isn't it better to produce something slightly crappy but from scratch than click a few buttons and keep getting the same results, or instead improve those crappy attempts and over time become better than what you get with poser.... and truly say "this is my work" not a computer generated manipulated work.

Now ask your self this, after reading that would a client want your so called "Crappy work", "yeeaah I made it but it's crappy"...I think not. At the end of the day it's about pleasing the client and getting paid. If you want self gratification that's fine keep working on your skills and pushing polies, most of us do that. But dont be so narrow minded because you would be shocked to see how much Poser is actually used professionally and "quietly" in the shadows of Hollywood.

gigatron
03-24-2005, 07:43 PM
LOL another thing to note, poser users are very agressive :P

chadtheartist
03-24-2005, 07:50 PM
Personally I am thinking about getting this. Although I don't need it to create figures and such, but it does have some cool features that most other apps don't have, in the same price range, i.e. hair and cloth.

Personally I could care less if people think poser is cheating, or that this isn't real art, etc... Heck, most people think that if you use a computer to make "art" that it's the computer doing all the work anyway. Who cares if they think that though! It's not like any art we create is going to change the world or anything! Maybe entertain it, but not change it.

Kid-Mesh
03-24-2005, 07:50 PM
Im actually not a poser user, but some of best friends are poser people :scream:

Seriously, it's where and what your doing with the software that matters, of course if your trying to get a job in the industy as a rigger, modeler, animator etc then it would be behoove you to use industry standards tools that are required for it.

But, there are other arena's professionally in which Poser is used and is profitable for the user. It also isnt fair to make sweeping statements about an application unless you have "really" tried to use it. The reason why poser models look like poser models is because the majority of the user base dont even turn the dials and all they want to do is pose and dress up the characters.

This may sound funny but to actually use Poser and get some good images actually takes some skill.

JMcWilliams
03-24-2005, 07:53 PM
So if a photographer doesn't CREATE the humans he photographs, or their clothes, but he does alaborately stage and light the scene, he is not an artist he's just "taking pictures"? Is that it?

I have absolutely NO idea what you mean about click click automatic software. Fundamentally Poser is no different than Lightwave, maya, or any other 3d app in how it functions, it just has fewer features and no modeler. There is no magic make art button. Geez I just don't think you understand the software at all.

It's low end, it has problems, but it is a real 3d app, and the cost/performance ratio is good.

Well, not an artist in the sense that I often attribute to 3D... i mean come on, so if I go and grab some action figures.... put some lighting together and pose them in a diarama of some kind on my desk... does that make me an artist? yes, i guess it is in a sense...
Ok so it becomes the art of the composition and lighting, which ARE arts in of themselves.
I think we all agree that the problem with poser images is always down to the artist, and that if they are crap then no amount of prefab content will help them, but this is the problem, i mean i've seen a few websites of supposed website designers who are making a living doing it and my god! the designs are awful!

.... I walked around the local shopping centre the other day... and what did I see? I fat ol' photoshop lens flare plopped into a clothes shop logo, and I just thought... who the hell got paid to make that????
So yes... I know its all about money, but to be quite honest money means very little to me, as long as i have enough to do what I love. :D

Anyhow, i'll just agree to disagree. Cause you are all cool dudes and I don't wanna get on the wrong side of everyone and come off as an elitist (which i am ;) ) hehe

Berserga
03-24-2005, 08:11 PM
I think we all agree that the problem with poser images is always down to the artist, and that if they are crap then no amount of prefab content will help them

Yes this is definately correct.

Your action figure analogy isn't really apt though, Most Poser figures come packed full of shaping morph targets. So with work you can get completely unique looking characters (If you didn't it wouldn't be very useful would it?)

So you are engaging in the creative activity of Character design. I actually have male Aliens in my project that do not look human that I got out of the old Victoria 2 mesh from Daz, with just Dial twisting scaling, and some magnet deformers.

Tirjasdyn
03-25-2005, 03:24 PM
Sure, I agree....
But every example you are using is where the person is using poser models as referance... which is not what it is intended for, if the brochure on the website is anything to go by.

It's about quick, cheap, easy prefab 3d for the masses.

Sorry about the sweeping statement though ;)

Actually no...that is exactically its original intention. And many still artists still use it for that...it is only recently that animators got a hold of it and demanded more and more animation tools for it.

Berserga
03-25-2005, 03:29 PM
Yeah I actually had Poser 1, pretty much all it was good for was reference.

I used to import the Poser 1 models into Truespace 2 and model my vehicles and props around them to help get proportions reasonably correct. But a nekkid smooth dude isn't of much use in an animation :D

Back then I was still planning on doing 2d characters with 3d, sets. I was sooo Naive. :)

Tirjasdyn
03-25-2005, 04:31 PM
I'm not an amazing artist but I make a bit here and there.

I do have a bit curiousity. My avitar is one of a series I'm working on...trying out different texturing techniques using materials/shaders.

The avitar was rendered in bryce after being posed in poser...the entire model is textureed in bryce.

On my website is #2 Same seen rendered and textured in Poser 5. I'm working on number 3 which will incorporate a skin shader into #2's image in Poser 5.

Now I am not into realism. I'm not an animator nor am I worried about correct proportions...(I know what they are but it's not what I'm going for).

What I see (and increasingly so) is that it NOT right if you don't do it certain way.

Why is that?

The majority of us seem to agree that art is subjective, therefore not an issue. How you did it should only be a factor for learn NOT for judging on the art it self.

I did not model the girl in those pics...I did not rig her. I moved her mesh around, dressed her in other meshes colored her, lit her, then rendered her.

I find the end product somewhat pleasing. If 1 was smoother I'd hang her on my wall. If 2 had more skin depth I'd hang her on my wall. To me that's art. Unless you want to do it yourself who cares how its done?

I'm waiting to get Poser 6(ordered a box.) It currently comes with a modeler (shade). This is a learning forum. So if I post an image and you don't like how I did (how re: the program I used ) there is no point in posting to comment. If you don't like how I did it (how re: how the light reflects or how the colors interact) Then posting is constructive and furthers the learning process. Still I can take it or leave it. (suggestions are optional, people seem to forget that alot when it comes to art).

Ezekiel19
03-25-2005, 09:29 PM
coolThanks

Flog
03-25-2005, 11:26 PM
And the battle rages on

All I got to say is Poser is used commercially and folks do make money using it for clients.

Now you can spend 3 weeks working on a project from "scratch" if you like, and work up to the deadline for 16 hours a day to make sure to finish it in those 3 weeks

Or you can use Poser, get the results you want and be finished with a project in a week and have 2 weeks off, maybe deliver it early and get praise

Clients do not care or know how it was made, the only thing they truly care about is the bottom line and the result. I've seen Poser everywhere from infomercials, to the supermarket, to commercials, to tv shows, documentaries and it has been used in movies as well. Matrix, The One, and a few others.

Time is money and Poser can save you some money.

Look on the Curious lab page and see who is using it.

I have a big project where there are over 100 background characters. Do you think I'll ever finish that doing it from scratch.

I have 6 main upfront characters modelled from scratch, for everyone else that no one cares about "extras" I use Poser!!!

See what Poser will help me do is achieve nice results and allow me to actually finish a project on time.

I'm sure Speilberg and all other directors go out and hand build locations, props, etc all themselves, build chunks of Earth to look like mountains etc.

Come on!! They go to locations, they find buildings they like, etc. You think Spielberg gets his hands dirty, building cars for his movies, boats, pots, flowers, etc?

NO!! Well Poser is useful to the one man team, who has a big imagination. It is a tool with props that lets you populate the background.

Morph it with zbrush and it will not look anything like poser. Pixar uses "base models" all the time. You think they go for scratch on everything? NO!!

You think any of the folks working on the movie are less of an artist because they used the "Universal Man" morphed it and animated it?

NO!!

In fact if you can use Poser well you are an artist!! An artist will make use of the tools he has, be it a pen, pencil, dyes, a cave wall, dog poo, vomit, soup cans, tin foil, Poser model, etc. A true artist can transform something into something else.

I feel accomplished when I finish a movie and it looks good and I ACTUALLY finish. With scratch I'll never finish, because I'll probably get tired and quit as so many other have done.

Go POSER!!
I'm a POSER, HASHER, VUEWER, WINGER, zBrusher, photoSHOPPER and proud of it

I Pose, Do Hash, Take a View, Fly Winger, Zbrush it, Go photoshopping!! Oh and I am also a Flasher!!

DotPainter
03-25-2005, 11:38 PM
Funny thing, in most of the "making of" videos I have seen from Pixar and the like, the animators pretty much are using "Poser" like knobs and buttons that have been designed, rigged and developed by TDs and modellers. Therefore, within a production pipeline, animation is a lot closer to using poser than you think.... Animators get paid to animate, modellers get paid to model and texture artists get paid to..... texture. One big ford assembly line. : )

JMcWilliams
03-26-2005, 12:27 AM
I thought we all agreed that it was down to the artist? I know of plenty of people who have built thier own 'base' models to work from and stick em into z-brush.... I would much prefer to do that myself than use someone elses model as a base and you save time in the same way.

Yeh yeh, i know, i know.... money money money, i don't debate that. But for personal work I ain't going there. I mean, so you needed to build 100 characters? why not build a base model yourself and tweak that like you would a poser model? But I digress, you can do whatever you want and respect to you for that. :D

Now just because something gets used a lot in commercials and the like, doesn't make it good.... I see cheesy lens flares all the time on TV, in mags, you name it. So we end up seeing loads of unmodified poser models too. Now just to be clear, IF you manage to make it look fresh and not like a standard poser model then fantastic! All the power to you for that. :applause:

Now call me sad, call me a loser but my art & music are very important to me... sure, i work as an artist and it's for money but I could not care less about money as long as I can survive and do what I love. But I take pride in doing it ALL, but thats just me and I certainly don't intend to force it on anyone else.

hmmm... what was my point again? :twisted:

eliseu gouveia
03-26-2005, 12:43 AM
I think the debate over the legitimacy of using Poser leads to nowhere but flames.

There will never be a consensus between its defenders and its oponents, so why not focus on the program itself and what it has to offer (or not)?
Personally, I was excited enough by the new features and the price range to make me purchase it (still waiting for the box).

However, I can say straight off the bat that Iīm not pleased (at all) with the fact that it has only one level of Undo.

Kid-Mesh
03-26-2005, 12:48 AM
..........Oh and I am also a Flasher!!

Oh my God...hahahaha your ending was very strong and when I got to that part I about died :scream:

richcz3
03-26-2005, 07:05 PM
And the battle rages on

Clients do not care or know how it was made, the only thing they truly care about is the bottom line and the result. I've seen Poser everywhere from infomercials, to the supermarket, to commercials, to tv shows, documentaries and it has been used in movies as well. Matrix, The One, and a few others.

and..

See what Poser will help me do is achieve nice results and allow me to actually finish a project on time.

and..

I feel accomplished when I finish a movie and it looks good and I ACTUALLY finish. With scratch I'll never finish, because I'll probably get tired and quit as so many other have done.

Go POSER!!
I'm a POSER, HASHER, VUEWER, WINGER, zBrusher, photoSHOPPER and proud of it.

Go Flog go! I salute you:thumbsup:
There are people who have great ideas maybe even dreams that may never see the light of day. This is simply because their peer group maligns a certain application. That's very unfortunate.

JMcWilliams
03-26-2005, 07:16 PM
Oh come on.:D The only person to blame if you don't get your dream is yourself. There are quite a few people I have met who turn thier noses up at computers as a tool...doesn't mean I throw my computer away, abandon my ideas and cry in a corner.:twisted:

Prove them wrong! Prove me wrong! :D

richcz3
03-26-2005, 08:07 PM
Yeah sure ok. Time is money and a majority of people do not have allot of time.

Building a Short Story or Film for Mass Consumption (Not Peer Group)
Pit two guys against one another.
One being a conventional from scratch artist and the other using available resources. If each puts the same number of hours a day, who will deliver first. (Time is money) and for less. :D

The reality is that higher end apps have progressed to increase productivety and presumably save time. They are decreasing the time required to produce from scratch, ultimately making work more affordable. Even XSI has Add Primative/Humanoid/ (Man or Female) for a base to build on. So a built in Poser for all intents and purposes.

On the business side its a no brainer for all the reason Flog posted. :thumbsup:

CaptainJackSparrow
03-27-2005, 12:18 PM
It's all very well for people who have no life or small projects to pontificate about 'doing it all yourself' but not every has the luxury of so much time, and even if they did they have better things to do then sit infront of a monitor to the wee hours connecting vertexs.

If something can cut out these boring mundane activities like rigging or modeling then I'm all for it, who cares if you built it all yourself, if you can find an app that can do the same job in less time then only a fool would do it the long way.

Can Poser do that, I don't know, but I'm all for the concept.

JMcWilliams
03-27-2005, 01:37 PM
It's all very well for people who have no life or small projects to pontificate about 'doing it all yourself' but not every has the luxury of so much time, and even if they did they have better things to do then sit infront of a monitor to the wee hours connecting vertexs.

I think people should do whatever they want with their spare time, despite what you think constitutes 'having a life'. Lets get rid of the boring mundane activities such as animating, scriptwriting, drawing aswell!... hell, why bother making anything ourselves!?. :twisted:

I wish I had 'a life' like you. :rolleyes: Anyhow... i'll drop out now, I cannot be arsed. <<<<<<<
<<<<<<<

CaptainJackSparrow
03-28-2005, 02:33 AM
You are completely missing the point.

The point is the aim is to spend more time on the creative elements and less time on the boring mundane elements that a machine can do, such as for instance rigging. Isn't this what any artist wants? To have more freedom for the real creative parts of a job, where you flair comes into play?

Time is precious, wasting it on mundane tasks a computer can do doesn't show how clever or cool you are, it shows the exact opposite.

eliseu gouveia
03-28-2005, 03:23 AM
3D apps are in general very cumbersome.

It takes a great deal of willpower to tackle those cold, mathematical interfaces and milk something imaginative outta them.

To those who do, congratulations.

In my view, however, the way of the future is simplification; making the work environment accessible, pleasant to be in, bearable. Thatīs what Poser, Vue, Bryce or other considered low end apps alike do.

Now Iīll grant you that being three clicks away from a render is cheap, but no more than what happens to any other tool.

Any person can grab a brush.

Any person can launch Poser and click render.



Very few, however, can paint a Mona Lisa withthe brush.

Very few can make its equivalent with Poser.

Just MHO.

DanSilverman
03-28-2005, 07:23 AM
The point is the aim is to spend more time on the creative elements and less time on the boring mundane elements that a machine can do, such as for instance rigging.

If the animator in my company read this he would through a fit. He actually likes to rig. What you may call "mundane" another calls "pure joy".

It takes a great deal of willpower to tackle those cold, mathematical interfaces and milk something imaginative outta them.

To those who do, congratulations.

In my view, however, the way of the future is simplification; making the work environment accessible, pleasant to be in, bearable. Thatīs what Poser, Vue, Bryce or other considered low end apps alike do.

I model in Modo. The UI is anything but cold and mathematical. On the other hand, progams like Poser and Bryce have, in my oppinion, terrible UI's. I do not think that their UI makes their programs any more accessible. What may make them more accessible is the fact that they are a bit simpler to use. In other words, Poser is not a modeling tool. As such, the UI is not cluttered with all the tools for modeling. This tends to simplify things.

JMcWilliams
03-28-2005, 08:38 AM
(I know i said I was not gonna answer any more, but I was in a lazy mood yesterday :D)

Thats exactly how i feel and i agree with you 100%... i want the tools to become more like traditional media in the sense that the technical barriers are less visible, but that in my opinion does not mean that I think we should all start using prefabs, I just don't think that is the best way. I'll build a base human in max myself and modify it in z-brush to make others from it when required, then at least Its all me and I save just as much time. I want the tools to become more powerful without having to resort to prefabs.

I (and most here I would venture) do not consider modelling to be a 'mundane task', infact it is one of the primary creative tasks in 3D and no computer will be able to automate that for you beyond landscape gen and the like which still needs a real creative direction to make look good. When you start automating things, you risk becoming complacent and lazy with creativity and the weak artists use it as more than a crutch, it is the be all and end all for them. If you are a canned effect whore then your work will look cheap and tacky. When you start automating things like rigging you actually run the risk of heading down the long windy path to less creativity, because there are a lot of ways to rig any one model depending on your needs for that model and what if those poser rigs just don't cut it for what you want to do? Lets hope you know how to rig eh? ;)

When I was saying 'do it all from scratch' i didn't mean that you have to start every human you make from a cube and never reuse... of course you should make base models to start from and manipulate in order to make a variety of humans for crowd scenes, that makes sense... I just refuse to use someone elses model as a base.

So I hope that clears up my views. I am not some stuffy uptight "every vertex must be unique!" azz :D I just think that there are better ways of saving time.

Berserga
03-28-2005, 01:51 PM
First of all I would just like to say thet Modelling is indeed an art unto it'self. It can be very enjoyable and rewarding.

It's also very time consuming and technically intense. If you devote your time to being a top notch modeller that doesn't mean that you can nessisarily animate your way out of a paper bag.

Likewise someone who is very inclined to do animation or make textures may not have any interest in "edge loops" or "splitting vertices". Just cause you like to paint doesn't mean you have to make the pot in the still life that you paint to be an artist.

There are definately those who CAN do it all. Like Terrence Walker, Model, animate, draw, Get his animation to market independently. But it may interest you to know that he doesn't look down on Poser, and infact showed a great interest in Vue ultimate recently on his Blog.

but that in my opinion does not mean that I think we should all start using prefabs

Again you really don't understand the software at all. You start with a base model, that is rigged. Then you take HUNDREDS of dials that are pointed at Morph targets, that you can mix and combine, both positive and negative to sculpt the model. With patience you can get VERY unique characters. If the base model is well made, you could get an anorexic zombie, or a sumo wrestler out of the same base mesh. It takes creativity to combine these elements and create a believable unique character. simply dismissing it as prefab is incorrect. Sure there are lots of prefab props and sets available, for Poser (The same can be said for every 3d app... See "Turbo Squid") but honestly why reinvent the wheel, If you are making a live action movie, and shoot on location, you are using a "prefab set".

But the software is also easy to use for the hobbyist who just want to play around and treat it like a virtual barbie doll... More power to them.

That brings me to one more aspect of the Poser community. It is very generous, and interconnected. The way it is distributed, those who enjoy the art of modelling, model Props, Base models, "pre-fab" characters, and clothing, then sell them (at a well below "Turbo squid" price.) or provide them free. Many of these models are very high quality, some aren't.

Those who like to texture likewise make textures for these models.

So the Craftsmen, and draftsmen make money, The end user can go on and produce commercial work and make money (It definately happens) Or not. But in the end it works out well.

Poser is NOT industry standard software. Don't get it thinkin you will get a job at WETA. :D

But it is a tool that fosters art of all kinds. Good, bad, horrible, and brilliant.

JMcWilliams
03-28-2005, 04:08 PM
cheers for the explanation :D

Good points.

Take care,

eichwulf
03-28-2005, 05:57 PM
I think that Poser is not that bad if used with other 3d programs. Basically, you can just take the body from poser and the head from Facegen and you'll have a unique 3d human without any modelling.

Berserga
03-28-2005, 07:28 PM
I think If I'm not mistaken, The "Face room" in Poser 5-6 (which Only works with the base figures which in P5 were pretty 00gly but in P6 look pretty decent) is based on face gen.

But I dunno for sure as I don't use that feature. I'd prefer to just get at the dials and start bashing away... Though the random face feature is good as a starting point or to make "Extras" for the background.

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