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View Full Version : Microsoft plans new browser version. Internet Explorer 7


mikepolizos
02-16-2005, 02:05 PM
...."We have decided to do a new version of Internet Explorer, this is IE 7," Gates said at the RSA Security Conference being held in San Francisco.....

http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/15/technology/microsoft_browser.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

percydaman
02-16-2005, 02:22 PM
...well that was anti-climactic....

Para
02-16-2005, 02:29 PM
Umm, they are doing a lot more than just planning since IE 7 beta will ship next summer.
http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2005/02/15/373104.aspx
http://www.neowin.net/comments.php?id=27085&category=main

mummey
02-16-2005, 02:53 PM
Does anyone else here, after using Firefox, wish that the file browser in Windows had tabs?

hardev
02-16-2005, 03:13 PM
who needs ie when you have firefox.

Velk
02-16-2005, 03:15 PM
Oh Horray! A new IE with tons of new security holes that must be patched before safely browsing the web... *heavy sarcasm* I can't wait...

Para
02-16-2005, 03:51 PM
Oh Horray! A new IE with tons of new security holes that must be patched before safely browsing the web... *heavy sarcasm* I can't wait...

Great attitude, keep up the good work! :thumbsup:

Gentle Fury
02-16-2005, 03:58 PM
yay, I'll stick with firefox.....

Funny how everytime M$ trys to make "more secure" software it just makes more holes. Last time I used IE, just starting it up (using about:blank as my start page) I got 13 spyware apps installed.

M$ doesn't realize the key to security is simplicity! The more preliminary counter measures you add to a piece of software, the more vulnerable it is!! If you have a browser that just loads HTML code and doesn't have things like Active-X Control (why would they even add something like that?????) then it is more secure. It's like someone putting the best and strongest locks on their front door and leaving the key under the doormat!

mummey
02-16-2005, 04:00 PM
Question: What would the anit-MS people whine about if Microsoft created a secure OS?

Answer: It wouldn't be as flexible, backwards compatible, robust, and easy-to-use as Windows... :rolleyes:

(To all the people who are whining about MS releasing a new version of their browser.)
The moral of this story is: If you're going to bitch about something, at least have a good reason so you don't look like an idiot.


Edit: Gentle Fury: Not directed at you. You actually gave good reasons! :)

richcz3
02-16-2005, 04:21 PM
Does anyone else here, after using Firefox, wish that the file browser in Windows had tabs?
Yes. Tabs in the Windows browsers be great.

gruvsyco
02-16-2005, 04:43 PM
every day this place seems just a little more like slashdot. :(

Para
02-16-2005, 04:53 PM
Yes. Tabs in the Windows browsers be great.

http://windowsmarketplace.com/content.aspx?ctId=63

every day this place seems just a little more like slashdot. :(

You have a valid point there. Sometimes I feel like I was telling to medieval peasants that the world is round...I should propably just turn off news forum, this forum has gotten a bit out of hand since a lot of people seem to think "freedom of speech" is some sort of lighter fluid instead of a recommendation to tell your opinion in a respectful manner.

mummey
02-16-2005, 05:03 PM
http://windowsmarketplace.com/content.aspx?ctId=63

What I would like however is tabs in the file explorer, not internet explorer.

Looks like both Para and I are approaching 1000 posts.

richcz3
02-16-2005, 06:01 PM
What I would like however is tabs in the file explorer, not internet explorer.
Yes, what the mummey said.

Para
02-16-2005, 06:23 PM
What I would like however is tabs in the file explorer, not internet explorer.

Hey, I'd like that one too. I've recently noticed I have multiple instances of Explorer open and I keep alt-tabbing between 'em - that'd be an excellent place for tabs.

Looks like both Para and I are approaching 1000 posts.

Spam spam spam, glorious spam... ;)

Saurus
02-16-2005, 06:37 PM
What I would like however is tabs in the file explorer, not internet explorer.

Looks like both Para and I are approaching 1000 posts.

Here's someting similar:

http://www.explorerxp.com/

hey Para: is there a shareware version of tab for internet explorer?

Para
02-16-2005, 06:55 PM
hey Para: is there a shareware version of tab for internet explorer?

Try Avant Browser, http://www.avantbrowser.com/ - it wraps itself around IE and adds a lot of functionality to it.

eMPeck
02-16-2005, 06:59 PM
I'm catching myself on mouse-gestures inside file browser and total commander too...

Geta-Ve
02-16-2005, 07:24 PM
every day this place seems just a little more like slashdot. :(

and how :thumbsup:

durbdk
02-16-2005, 11:04 PM
Yes, Microsoft isn't perfect, and yes, they have a huge amount of holes in Windows (and just about everything else) but without Gates and what he did, it's a good bet that we wouldn't have the oppertunity to work on our CG/3D/Gaming/yadda yadda yadda, because of the cost and complexity. MS might have had questionable business practices, market monopoly and other foibles, but it's thanks to them that the computer has become what it is today. We have powerful machines with a (somewhat) standard architecture that is (usually) stable and affords us the luxery to create what we imagine. Instead of always dogging on Bill and the MS team, try to realize what they did for us.

(Oh, and just for the record, I am NOT a MS fan. I use their software because it runs on their computers, if tomorrow Linux ran everything Windows does, I'd switch in a second. I'm sick of crashes and windows rot.) <-- And no, this doesn't disqualify my comment.

ghopper
02-16-2005, 11:21 PM
Hey, I'd like that one too. I've recently noticed I have multiple instances of Explorer open and I keep alt-tabbing between 'em - that'd be an excellent place for tabs.
Spam spam spam, glorious spam... ;)

Try Total Commander ( www.ghisler.com ). I've been using this file explorer since '96 and it's a great time saver. It also supports tabs ( see image (http://websurfer.kulichki.net/soft_pics/november_2003/total_commander.jpg) - *bad quality )

Larry_g1s
02-16-2005, 11:28 PM
who needs ie when you have firefox.
Agreed! I'm good with Firefox thank you very much MS. :thumbsup:

Schwinnz
02-17-2005, 12:17 AM
The new version of IE, which will be released for preliminary testing this summer, will have new protections against viruses, spyware and "phishing" scams, which fool users into entering sensitive information on Web pages that appear to be legitimate.

I wish they don't believe it's only about security or we're doomed ! :argh:

I want svg and png. And standard compliant everything.

Anyway firefox will win in the end. :thumbsup:

CaptainJackSparrow
02-17-2005, 12:54 AM
MS sucks. I'll stick with Firefox thank you very much.

visualride
02-17-2005, 01:10 AM
Thanks for the heads up on Firefox guys. Much better than MS. I'm also loving ExplorerXP so far today, but haven't found out how to view files in thumbnail mode.

slaughters
02-17-2005, 02:10 AM
Firefox is great. I keep finding myself doing the "middle-mouse-click-on-links" kind of thing when I'm in IE.

I'm glad this has spurred Microsoft to actually do some work on making a new browser update. Competition breeds innovation.

P.S. Just because you use Firefox does not mean that your browser is secure. Please keep make sure you keep up with the Known security vulnderabilities in Firefox.

>>>> Link to Firefox vulnerabilities page <<<< (http://www.mozilla.org/projects/security/known-vulnerabilities.html#Firefox)

Analog-42
02-17-2005, 02:59 AM
im satisfied with my firefox

dotTom
02-17-2005, 07:56 AM
Here's a link to the Internet Explorer engineering teams blog (some more rabid members may be disappointed since there doesn't appear to be any Baby Eating on this page):

http://blogs.msdn.com/ie

Microsoft throttled down the IE team at one point to focus dev and design talent on Longhorn's Aero shell and associated technologies, they're ramping it back up again partly because of customer demand and mainly because the Aero shell is pretty much a done deal by now. It's good to see they're actively building on XP SP 2 and not compromising so much against Windows 2000.

As an aside: as I've pointed out before elsewhere, Windows XP Pro x64 is actually based on the Windows 2003 code stream and from a engineering quality perspective (in terms of secure coding practices etc) is far in advance of its 32 bit cousin.

mikepolizos
02-17-2005, 09:40 AM
Try Total Commander ( www.ghisler.com ). I've been using this file explorer since '96 and it's a great time saver. It also supports tabs ( see image (http://websurfer.kulichki.net/soft_pics/november_2003/total_commander.jpg) - *bad quality )

Total Comander is a must have tool! It saves you time. :buttrock:

Mozzila + Total Comander = unistall explorer :) :) :)

slime
02-17-2005, 09:46 AM
yay, I'll stick with firefox.....
Last time I used IE, just starting it up (using about:blank as my start page) I got 13 spyware apps installed.
Do you realize how stupid is this? Where did the spyware enter from? The "secret code" that the hackers placed in your "about:blank" page.
I use firefox, and have been using mozilla for many years and IE is bloated and not secure, but come on, guys, I know how "cool" is to bash microsoft, but try to think with your own brains.


M$ doesn't realize the key to security is simplicity! The more preliminary counter measures you add to a piece of software, the more vulnerable it is!!
wow. that's so brilliant! Why don't you ask for a position as advisor at microsoft? But you will have to eat babies if you work there, of course... :rolleyes:

dotTom
02-17-2005, 10:03 AM
Actually that's note quite true. Microsoft is very aware that adding more features increases the "attack surface" of a given piece of software. This is why in Windows Server 2003 most stuff is turned off by default. Try putting Service Pack 1 on Windows Server 2003 and you'll see a even more trimmed down, locked down system, one that requires you to read through and acknowledge the implications of enabling various sub-systems. The "problem" with IE dates back to the time when Microsoft got the scope and impact internet wrong and was caught on its back foot by Netscape Navigator (remember Microsoft at the time had a proprietary non HTML based MSN at that point). Microsoft went on a serious feature cram, and both Explorer and Navigator went into "feature list" wars. Steve Balmer has since said that from a security perspective this was extremely dumb, especially when it comes to the high level of scripting that IE allows.

I'm not saying this to try and justify Microsoft's mistakes going forward, but you have to realise that Microsoft do not generally employ idiots. They are a victim of their own success and it is often hard for them to make changes without breaking in-house systems built on their stuff by valued Fortune customers etc.

From the perspective of the end user who wants a secure computing base we have to hope that the industry continues to move towards managed code execution where code-access-security offers a far more "net aware" security model that the principal based model of Windows and Unix have today. Plus managed execution engines will help programmers leverage increasing parallelism in systems in the very near future.

Garma
02-17-2005, 11:16 AM
M$ doesn't realize the key to security is simplicity! The more preliminary counter measures you add to a piece of software, the more vulnerable it is!!

I'm sorry? Microsoft got rich by the fact that they knew what simplicity was and that they understand what the average user wants. Linux is about to die because too much is possible.
Firefox is more complicated than IE. the difference is that the people at mozilla know how to write a decent browser. People can see that.

One of those articles said that 5% of the internet users uses firefox. that's nothing to worry about for microsoft now isn't it? someone care to explain?

mummey
02-17-2005, 01:21 PM
I'm sorry? Microsoft got rich by the fact that they knew what simplicity was and that they understand what the average user wants. Linux is about to die because too much is possible.

Linux is about to die!?! Sorry I gotta disagree.

Firefox is more complicated than IE. the difference is that the people at mozilla know how to write a decent browser. People can see that.

Firefox works well because it is very flexible(not complicated, firefox can actually be simpler than IE). Its plugin interface is amazing.

Firefox also can take advantage of the fact its NOT tied to the OS. It allows flexibility without worries that malicious plugin code can hack the computer.

One of those articles said that 5% of the internet users uses firefox. that's nothing to worry about for microsoft now isn't it? someone care to explain?

Correct: http://money.cnn.com/2005/02/15/technology/microsoft_browser.reut/index.htm?cnn=yes

The article also stated that IE usage has dropped 5% in the last six months. The potential threat is a trend where people find out their machine is much less likely to get hacked if they use a browser other than IE.

slaughters
02-17-2005, 05:16 PM
...The article also stated that IE usage has dropped 5% in the last six months...The article is not quite right (close though).

6% internet users now use Firefox. Some of that number came from people who switched from IE, but also remember that people who used Netscape/Opera/Mozolla/etc.. also are switching.

IE's loss is more like 2 to 3 percent over the last 3 months.

I optimisticaly expect this to ramp up to a decent 10-25% by mid summer.

P.S. Go to TheCounter to spin your own numbers.

heavyness
02-17-2005, 08:09 PM
if my browser can't tell me if Abe Vigoda is alive (https://addons.update.mozilla.org/extensions/moreinfo.php?application=firefox&version=1.0+&os=nt&id=451) or not, i don't want to browse the internet with it...


even if both browsers were just as secure as each other, i would still go with Firefox. i can customize my browser up the wazoo. and like the extension above, it gives me much more options.

rudipooimf
02-17-2005, 08:33 PM
It does seem more and more that this site is a "slashdot" infested board of open source advocates who by the by, do not use open source OS's in most cases i'm sure, or grab the latest version of an Open Source 3d app, etc.

If your going to complain about Microsoft you better be running Linux and doing your artwork with GIMP, not hitting this board out of your XP environment, doing your artwork with Photoshop and Maya/Max, while all the time shitting on the company that advanced technology farther than any open source movement ever could.


EDIT: Just one more thing. What do you think would happen should firefox come to prevelance on the web? More script kiddies would be out there trying to find holes in it, to boost their LEET status...once anything becomes popular, it becomes a target. Just wait.

dotTom
02-17-2005, 08:37 PM
It does seem more and more that this site is a "slashdot" infested board of open source advocates who by the by, do not use open source OS's in most cases i'm sure, or grab the latest version of an Open Source 3d app, etc.

If your going to complain about Microsoft you better be running Linux and doing your artwork with GIMP, not hitting this board out of your XP environment, doing your artwork with Photoshop and Maya/Max, while all the time shitting on the company that advanced technology farther than any open source movement ever could.

Kudos for saying that, hope you're wearing asbestos because doubtless you'll be flamed within minutes :) Although to be fair Open Source is a completely valid and alternative development platform, one to which Microsoft is increasingly giving projects over to (go look on SourceForge for examples).

rudipooimf
02-17-2005, 08:41 PM
I know open source is viable, was just saying that MS advances helped us all get to the point of a much higher level of technology.

dotTom
02-17-2005, 08:54 PM
I know open source is viable, was just saying that MS advances helped us all get to the point of a much higher level of technology.

Totally, I've suggest several times to "Microsoft eats babies" posters here that they take a walk over to reseach.microsoft.com and have a look at what Microsoft does in the area of graphics (for example).

At the end of the day if FireFox had > 90% of the market we'd all be moaning at them rather than MS, it's not a matter of one group of people write better software than another, it's a matter of the attractiveness of a large install base when it comes to selecting an attack target. You're a black-hat hacker, are you going to target a browser that has 3-4% of the market or one that has the majority of desktops? The majority of corporate desktops!

Guaranteed that if/when Linux makes it on the desktop, let's take a trip to what-if land and imagine a future where Microsoft and Linux had roughly 40% each (the rest being Apple etc), in such a world Linux would also be getting the heck hacked out of it and generating equally bad vibes as Windows gets today. A big reason why alternatives are perceived as more secure is because they're just not subject to the same level of abuse - they're not yet a victim of their own success.

rudipooimf
02-17-2005, 09:09 PM
Well then we are on the same page my friend.

Self-Designer
02-17-2005, 09:26 PM
I wounder... Let say, the most common OS + browser were an open source thingy... And everyone could see its security holes... The chances a black hat hacker will get to it before a nice guy (or girl ;) ) who just wants to help will find it, and report about it to the owners of the OS + browser and this company will be attentive to those "good people" and the program will be updated very often like an antivirus or a firewall... This way I wounder what's the chances a hacker / torjan / worm / virus / holy space cows will succeed in doing any damage or just invade a comptuer.

So, what I say is that MS should have gone with that way of working. Yes, I know it's not 100% capitalisty working that way... have a better chance someone will learn something from your "programming secrets"... but hey, that sounds like a good solution for keeping a good program without holes.

And of course, a good plugin support for everything u can; Full integration; No mixing OS and browsing; tabbing etc. etc.

slaughters
02-17-2005, 10:19 PM
... The chances a black hat hacker will get to it before a nice guy (or girl ;) ) who just wants to help will find it, and report about it to the owners of the OS + browser and this company will be attentive to those "good people" and the program will be updated very often like an antivirus or a firewall....Where's the security patch release for Firefox then? :)

OpenSource work usually takes longer between releases than commercial work does. Lot's of reasons for that. One of which is that most of the OpenSource developers also have day jobs and don't have the time to devote to it that they would wish.

Self-Designer
02-17-2005, 10:34 PM
Is Firefox an open source? Anyway, if it was a company like MS that uses open source, it had a full time job for that ;)

ilasolomon
02-17-2005, 10:47 PM
Mummey, would you tell me if you are idiot enough to use IE instead of FireFox? just curious what's your main browser. thanx.

AnimBot
02-18-2005, 01:06 AM
Try Avant Browser, http://www.avantbrowser.com/ - it wraps itself around IE and adds a lot of functionality to it.

Yea I was using firefox when it was phoenix and enjoyed it but got sick of having to manually install everything so I switched over to Avant Browser although it's still basically IE it does have all the great things a modern browser should. I love the idea of multiple home pages and the tabbed window organization. I still miss the bookmark buttons that firefox has though.

Apoclypse
02-18-2005, 03:31 AM
You know this os bashing thing goes both ways. Linux is dead, yeah in Bill Gates wet dream. Don't get me wrong I use Windows as do most other people, but that is out of neccessity not because i choose to. When I first built my rig I swore up and down that I would only put linux on it. But unfortunately that isn't the case some of the software I use are only for windows ( primarily ganes and such) but don't get me wrong I don't dislike windows as a piece of software because if anything that is what linux is really trying to be just with a more stable kernel and an open sdource software approach. Don't believe me, just look at kde and the earlier versions of gnome ( 1.4 up to 2.4). However I don't like monopolies and I am not especially fond of MS policies on certain things. Its MS politics I don't like not their technologies. IE for example might be a buggy, security hole infested piece of crap, ,but that doesn't mean that as a product it didn't change the face of internet browsing, before IE you would have had to pay for browser to browse the internet. But in true MS politics they provided this service unsportingly, without giving a competing product a chance to retaliate.

Linux is about choice, yes this might be confusing to a new user coming from a windows world where you do noy have choice as what software you use. IE for example is part of windows for better or worse, you do not have of choice of removing it, just the choice not to use it. But in Linux choice is what makes it not only more secure than windows but more stable. In a standard Linux install, provided you install both kde and gnome, you might have up to 6 different browsers ( Konquerer, FireFox, Mozilla, Epiphany, Galeon, links and quite a few more which i don't remember at the time) all open source made by people in their spare time with more features and better security than a commercial product, the point being if they find a security hole in say FireFox, then you just have to swith to Konquerer etc. Its not something that will bring your whole system down or at the most minimal even stop you from browsing the web. This is what makes linux what it is choice. Choice to use whatever distro you choose, to use KDE, to use GNOME , to use X.org, to use XFree86, to use Kdevelop or eclipse the list goes on and on.

This is a cg site, think about how many 'what apps do you use' post there are on this or any other cg related site, now imagine not having the choice to pick, there was only one app say Maya ( sorry maya guys don't mean to offend any body, just an example) say that maya has this gaping security hole or a serious bug which can affect not only your production, but your system, your saved work can be corrupted, so on and so forth. You don't have the choice of just dropping maya and going with say XSI, you have to wait till Alias decides to form a press release and say well we already knew that are product was buggy and that the updtes weren't really doing anything so just hold pn till the end of septemeber and we'll have this fixed. There foes your production. your system, your saved data. But you can always wait till the end of september, right?

So Thank You Microsoft for makin everything so simple for us. Don't give them a choice thats what the people really want.

Apoclypse
02-18-2005, 03:38 AM
Dammnit I just bashed on MS again. Sorry its a habit. Can you direct me to this slashdot business, I need to get few things off my chest.

ninus3d
02-18-2005, 09:15 AM
on the other hand guys, IE does show a few pages more properly :P
And it also consumes less RAM and CPU then firefox so i kinda like it, regarding security so are there means you can take to protect yourself :)


I just wish IE could draw the pages the same way as firefox does *sigh*

Self-Designer
02-18-2005, 11:47 AM
on the other hand guys, IE does show a few pages more properly...

Ah, it's only becuase of 2 things:

1. The website is written wrong, and only IE is so forgiven to wrong-writing laws.
2. The website uses some MS's technologies like active X, VBA, bla bla stuff, that isn't synchronized with the lets-call-it ISO the other browsers' companies oranized and decided to agree on.

Sorry for my english :blush:

mummey
02-18-2005, 12:20 PM
on the other hand guys, IE does show a few pages more properly :P

Pages not written to spec and instead written specifically for IE.

And it also consumes less RAM and CPU then firefox so i kinda like it

Part of IE is actually always running. you just don't notice it because it is part of the OS.

regarding security so are there means you can take to protect yourself :)

Exactly! To get an equivalent security level to firefox, you can unplug the network cable. :)

slaughters
02-18-2005, 12:50 PM
Ah, it's only becuase of 2 things:

1. The website is written wrong, and only IE is so forgiven to wrong-writing laws.
2. The website uses some MS's technologies like active X, VBA, bla bla stuff, that isn't synchronized with the lets-call-it ISO the other browsers' companies oranized and decided to agree on.

Sorry for my english :blush:What you say is true, but Firefox has it's share of unique and annoying layout problems. Specifically width and height specifications in Cascadiing Style Sheets. Firefox just doesn't want to render them correctly on the screen sometimes.

And face it. If Firefox can not come up with a way to play embeded video files then a huge chunk of the public will not use it (regardless on how "wrong" geeks thinks this makes them). That is one reason why my teenage daughter refuses to use FireFox at all.

P.S. If anyone can tell me how I can get the embeded video files on my animation page ( http://www.stansight.com/animations.html ) to work in FireFox without requiring every veiwer to download a pluggin, then I would be greatful. :)

Koogle
02-18-2005, 01:09 PM
ad aware + Maxthon = great

I hardy ever have to use ad aware btw and if I do its usually because of a something I've downloaded that has had spyware in it, and Maxthon +its popup blocker is the best replacement browser for IE, its everything Internet Explorer should be really. As for firefox? well I haven't found anything I like about it, and its tab browsing is pathetic compared to Maxthon formerly known as myie2 btw.

http://www.maxthon.com/

Self-Designer
02-18-2005, 01:53 PM
...but Firefox has it's share of unique and annoying layout problems. Specifically width and height specifications in Cascadiing Style Sheets. Firefox just doesn't want to render them correctly on the screen sometimes...

Ah, text problems, though are not connected to my own pain (hebrew talking ;) ) I've never understood why does it exists?? It's math! leading, kerning... precised mathematic parameters to define distances between letters, words, lines, paragraphs... Where can you be wrong with it??

And if mentioning it, I think it had to be controled by the OS. Something like a general laws that work everywhere. Same for fonts, bidirectional support (hebrew i said :) )... Just can't understand how MS did a good work with MS Word, but it and all other companies suck when it's about other programs. If it was defined by the OS, all programs would have supported hebrew or any other language as well as MS Word.

Mmm... maybe this is MS's way to sell its office... :hmm:

rudipooimf
02-18-2005, 06:43 PM
Well Apocolypse obviously smokes way too much crack, or knows nothing about software development. Either way to say that microsoft prevents us from choice is preposterous. That must be why the provide one of the most powerful toolsets for software development for any application in the world. The .NET dev environment now even includes plugins for coding in Cobal etc. Any language you want you can compile for almost. I'm not saying microsoft's OS is better or worse, i'm just saying it's popular, it works, and it's what most software manufacturers are developing for. I know, i know, it's microsofts fault for making something that everyone wanted early on...damn them for being successful. Now they need to pay for it. So all the linux and mac holes out there need to band together and "stick it to the man". With a marketshare the size that Microsoft has, and continued R&D to keep developing new and innovative products that get better with age, (ie. Think about how Windows 95 was, and think about how XP is...can you say actual plug and play) Microsoft barelys hears your cries like a fart in a windstorm when it comes to desktop OS's.


I'm sure i'll get flamed for this but honestly, do you really think it's worth constantly bitching about microsoft? Why not be productive rather than desctructive.

Apoclypse
02-19-2005, 03:24 AM
No I do not smoke crack, though I've been known to hang around the rubber glue too much.

But tell me have you managed to uninstall IE from your system wiithout it acting stupid. Then
tell me about the .Net standard and all that other crap which has no relevance to the average user.

Apoclypse
02-19-2005, 03:27 AM
Ooh ApocTwist that was harsh, Sorry man didn't mean for it to come out that way must be the rubber glue.

rebo
02-19-2005, 06:11 AM
I wonder if there will be this for IE7 ( somehow i doubt it)

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firestar3d
02-19-2005, 07:27 AM
The Windows vs Linux argument has literally been done to death already, so I won't bother going over the finer points of it. All I will say is that when people come out with sarcastic and incoherent arguments they do nothing to further their argument, they just make themselves look like morons, and that gets people nowhere.

Simple truth is, Microsoft is dominant because they are good at marketing, plain and simple. It's taken them nearly 15 years to get an OS that's remotely stable, and that's unacceptable when the vast majority of other OS manufacturers out there had managed to achieve the same job since the 70's. Not only that, but Windows XP is bloated beyond belief, with useless features that simply cannot be removed, etcetc. Linux is a far more stable OS, as is Mac OS-X, as was AmigaOS when it was still around (even without Memory Protection and all kinds of other features that most modern OS's have now). Two gigs just for an OS installation is a joke. Linux with a bare bones installation and KDE interface takes up less than an eighth of this space, and even after installing all the other toolkits (including all the server tools you're likely to need if you have such an interest) still takes up less space than a default Windows XP installation.

Linux' biggest problem is lack of software support (which is slowly changing), and pretty much non-existent marketing. This is hardly a surprise when you consider the Open Source nature of the platform, and the fact that it still isn't being targeted at a general audience. Technically it does a far superior job to Windows, as does Firefox compared to IE, but it's all about effective marketing, which is the only reason Microsoft has held on to its' dominance for so long.

wrench000
02-19-2005, 07:42 AM
I've been using Firefox for over a Year now and I love it. Infact Firefox displays pages very nicely better then ie in most cases and it also does it ten times faster.

Firefox doesn't work in Windows update then ofcourse I don't do windows update any way. I'll patch when I need too, I have no spyware or viruses and my computer runs great. Popups well I haven't seen one in ages, even going to heavy popup page I get nothing. There is no ActiveX balony and I am a happy camper. About CSS, Firefox has no probs with CSS its IE that does firefox is ISO browser whilest IE is not. Pages designed for CSS tricks for IE will not work properly in firefox thats because IE can't handle CSS right in the first place so there are hacks in place. So far I have maybe been too less then handful of sights that didn't display properly, then ofcourse I just use my "Open with IE plugin"

Beamtracer
02-20-2005, 08:52 PM
The issue goes beyond which browser is faster or which has the nicest features.

This is an issue about control. Who should control the internet... Microsoft or the open source community?

The Internet Explorer is killing competitors, and killing other platforms. Microsoft used its OS monopoly to kill Netscape (who were years ahead of their time). Once I.E was dominant, Microsoft cancelled I.E for other platforms. MS began using non-standard HTML. They began using non-standard Java. They began to control internet standards.

Even if you love Microsoft and think Windows is the best piece of software ever, you shouldn't let them extend that monopoly into other markets. When there is viable competition in the operating systems market (ie, Linux, Mac OS X) it makes Microsoft work harder to make a better Windows.

The same with browsers. Keep the competition alive, and all browsers will become better. When the competition dies and one player becomes a monopoly it is bad for all users of all platforms, including Windows.

L.Rawlins
02-20-2005, 09:03 PM
^ Simply put : Agreed.

xtrudeh
02-20-2005, 09:44 PM
Ah, they are only tools eh...

MS allows one to get up and running... after which it becomes a buffet eh... too many choices from the git go only helps to confuse... baby steps.

Apple is doing it on thier side of things as well...

Consumer choice is widespread... what you can't find at your local computer outlet you can probably find online somewhere... browser's are no exception...

but yea, when one first ventures aboard the whole computer thing, I think that auto go is a good thing... your buying a system, not just the rig... though that is there as well if you so desire...

I mean really... plug in and go go go... choices come as you reach for em... KISS :)

Beamtracer
02-20-2005, 11:34 PM
Ah, they are only tools eh...
If the browser war was only about tools, then Microsoft wouldn't be bothered. This is not about tools. As I said on the previous page, it's about control of the internet.

MS allows one to get up and running... after which it becomes a buffet eh... too many choices from the git go only helps to confuse... baby steps. Too many choices? Do people really have trouble learning how to use a web browser? They are all based on Marc Andreeson's (Netscape co-founder) original browers, with an address bar and back/forward arrows.

Besides, the non-Microsoft browsers like Firefox, Mozilla, Opera, iCab, Safari etc adhere to industry standards, unlike Internet Explorer which Microsoft uses as a tool to move people away from standards and move them onto Microsoft proprietary technology.

Apple is doing it on thier side of things as well.
If you're referring to Apple's Safari web browser, it's rendering engine is completely open source (the KDE project), and Apple is donating lots of code to the open source KDE project. Compare that to Microsoft's approach to Internet Explorer.

People who love Microsoft Windows fail to see how competition actually benefits them. Does anyone really think that Microsoft would have bothered doing a total rewrite of Internet Explorer if the much faster Firefox browser didn't appear on the scene?

Support competition. You'll be better off in the long run.

BRUTICUS
02-21-2005, 02:31 AM
Browser wars made sense back in the day when it was Netscape Navigator vs Internet Explorer, they were both pretty close in functionality.

However when it comes to Firefox and Internet Explorer I don't see any competition. Firefox and its tabbed browsing is just far superior. I really wish i could uninstal Internet Explorer at this point as I have no use for it.

Now if I could only bookmark tabbed groups in Firefox like I do in Mozilla at work.

IE should definitely add some tabbed browsing.

firestar3d
02-21-2005, 06:09 AM
IE needs to be completely re-written from the ground up. And MS needs to be forced to unlink it from Windows so that it can be removed if necessary. People should be allowed that choice.

Further, IE, in the course of being re-written, should be forced to use standard protocols etc. Non-standard HTML, Javascript, Java (although Sun have now put a stop to that) and CSS etc, in IE has meant that even if you choose to use an alternative browser (such as Firefox), you will find problems with web pages that were written using IE's non-standard versions of standard protocols.

And on the same topic, people that have written pages specifically to work in IE and not in other browsers should then have to re-write those same pages so that they are HTML/XML/CSS/Javascript etc. compliant.

Until these things happen, a lot of less knowledgable users will simply stick with IE because "my pages don't work properly in anything else".

mummey
02-21-2005, 12:20 PM
IE needs to be completely re-written from the ground up. And MS needs to be forced to unlink it from Windows so that it can be removed if necessary. People should be allowed that choice.

Further, IE, in the course of being re-written, should be forced to use standard protocols etc. Non-standard HTML, Javascript, Java (although Sun have now put a stop to that) and CSS etc, in IE has meant that even if you choose to use an alternative browser (such as Firefox), you will find problems with web pages that were written using IE's non-standard versions of standard protocols.

And on the same topic, people that have written pages specifically to work in IE and not in other browsers should then have to re-write those same pages so that they are HTML/XML/CSS/Javascript etc. compliant.

Until these things happen, a lot of less knowledgable users will simply stick with IE because "my pages don't work properly in anything else".

heh... silly idealism... ;)

firestar3d
02-21-2005, 01:10 PM
heh... silly idealism... ;)

*cough* err... True... :blush:

rudipooimf
02-21-2005, 08:35 PM
These open source/microsoft/OS/browser debates are great. lol. Bravo to all the open source people for sticking to their guns and not buckling to microsofts pressure...lol. I will admit one thing, microsoft is a marketing giant and that is a major reason for their success. However my initial use of linux was limited and when the install was so horrific with lack of hardware support etc, i decided then that i'd pay to get an OS that supported everything i wanted to do, was functional, had the support of the gaming industry wholeheartedly etc. So yea, i sold out to MS, but i don't sit and bitch about the open source movement because i use MS...not like Linux users do about MS. lol

firestar3d
02-21-2005, 09:26 PM
Must've been some time ago that you used any version of Linux... That or you grabbed something like Gentoo or something for advanced users.

Distro's like Mandrake and Fedora are so easy to set up these days they make setting up Windows look difficult. And hardware support is pretty vast nowadays, unless you've got an older, more obscure hardware setup.

As for the Linux Users bashing MS, well, that's only partly true. I myself am a dual boot user. Primarily right now I use Windows because that's where most of my apps are. There aren't alternatives available for Linux yet, and I'm not going to disrupt my workflow by learning a whole new set of 3D tools to do so, which means I still use Windows.

Sure, Linux still has it's downsides, but when all's said and done, it does a better job. And it doesn't demand that you use the provided software, or integrate everything together in a way that you can't remove it.

Some people bash linux because Windows is all they know, and they refuse to try anything different. Some people can't see past the ends of their own noses. The reverse can also be true, but one thing is certain. It's incorrect to generalise and say everyone does it. A number of people don't do so because they either have no need, don't care, or don't know any different. Occasionally, you get people who "bash" (although that's also not strictly true, they simply offer criticism based on facts) either OS for valid reasons.

I could re-state the previous post I made, about IE and Windows, but I won't. It's there now and can be referred back to if anyone wishes. All I will say is that with all of the common complaints about MS, Windows and IE, they're fairly consistent. Doesn't that suggest some element of truth to them? In which case, it's not simply a case of bashing, but more a case of giving an opinion based partially on facts.

But then again to me, bashing is more like "Windows is rubbish, because it looks like a fisher price toy" or "Linux is shyt because I said so". Neither really explains why.

I suppose it's a matter of choice. Even then, that statement is debatable, since so many apps require you to have Windows installed. Even using something like WINE isn't foolproof. And assuming you legally own Windows and can supply necessary DLL's for WINE to function, some applications don't like the environment.

Samo
02-22-2005, 08:59 AM
Firefox, thank you, I feel more secure. IE is simply worse. Have you seen the IE browser of your friends who are not as nerd as us and don't have a good acknowledge about security items? For them, IE simply becomes little by little a good piece of crap.

f97ao
02-22-2005, 11:11 AM
I think a new browser is WELL needed. One thing I really don't like about MS is if there is no competition then development totally stops. I mean the interface of Internet Explorer is just like IE 4..... and that was ages ago. After they killed Netscape not much has happened to the interface except bug fixes and security patches.

Internet has such enormous potential, so it's really sad when the window (browser) to the internet doesn't change. FireFox is very nice like people say, but it has some disadvantages as well. For one thiing the interface is actually bigger, which I don't like, also the full screen mode is also bigger. Also some pages do not work in Firefox, although that isn't very common. www.gamespot.com doesn't work well for example, and my bank page doesn't work either.

Some new features that I would like to see in browsers.
- zoomable pages, like in Opera. Hello this is useful.
- tabs like in firefox.
- ability to translate languages automatically (i don't really need it but i think many do)
- isn't it about time that graphics become stronger in the browser, hardware accelerated?
Flash is nice, but oh boy it is so unoptimized so so Basic on the c64 looks fast in comparision.
- There should be zillions of weird but useful tools that we haven't thought about that those working on the tools should be able to come up with. wouldn't it be cool if we could write notes on webpages or perhaps delete the parts of a webpage that we are not interested in so that it doesn't clutter our view?
- php/asp does have several disadvantages. That it always have to reload the pages, which disables caching if you for example press a button is quite sad, even though it is more secure. This makes browsing pretty slow even on fast connections.
- and pre-caching. This has always baffled me that it's not used. When you go to a page I think it would make all the sense in the world to pre-cache some of the links, it could use statistics to pre-cache the most visited links for example so that those will always be downloaded and possible to instantly select.
- just smaller things like better help would sure be nice. Tutorials anyone. Yes we don't need them, but my folks sure do. Clear movie tutorials made with camtasia that show exactly how to search for things on google, how to save bookmarks etc.
- also the bookmark systems is not good in IE. it's performance wise very slow sometimes for no reason, it's hard to move around bookmarks and it easily becomes a mess. Why not have a "gallery" thumbnail preview, where all your screen switches to thumbnails with both the name and a small picture of the site.
- pictures. In IE, I always hated the way they control pictures. Firefox is far better, but still not perfect. I would like to have a superfast way of just saving pictures to a special folder. Excellent if you are collecting photos for reference. It should also automatically name the pictures if there is a collision, since many people name the pictures "pic1.jpg"

So, that was just a small collection of ideas, there is sure alot to do.

/Andreas

Para
02-22-2005, 12:43 PM
I think a new browser is WELL needed. One thing I really don't like about MS is if there is no competition then development totally stops. I mean the interface of Internet Explorer is just like IE 4..... and that was ages ago. After they killed Netscape not much has happened to the interface except bug fixes and security patches.

IE4 had customizable background (just place a .bmp of your choice to the IE's directory), only one size for buttons and it missed a whole bunch of features and support for modern stuff IE6 has. So yes, no development there ;)

Internet has such enormous potential, so it's really sad when the window (browser) to the internet doesn't change. FireFox is very nice like people say, but it has some disadvantages as well. For one thiing the interface is actually bigger, which I don't like, also the full screen mode is also bigger. Also some pages do not work in Firefox, although that isn't very common. www.gamespot.com doesn't work well for example, and my bank page doesn't work either.

That's a common misconception. More changes and additions doesn't mean things would turn better because when complexity goes over a certain point, people start to have trouble just to produce a mediocre product.

Some new features that I would like to see in browsers.
- zoomable pages, like in Opera. Hello this is useful.

I agree, would be nice especially with certain sites which are designed to be like 400 pixels wide with 8pt fonts. Try using those with 1600*1200 :P

- tabs like in firefox.

Some hate 'em, some love 'em. At their current form I dislike tabs (resource management being one of those things I'd really like to get into with tabs).

- ability to translate languages automatically (i don't really need it but i think many do)

This is impossible just because languages don't translate that easily since the translation services that can be found from the internet have a lot of trouble with idioms and words that have multiple meanings. For example in Finnish we have a pun "Kun lakkaa satamasta, haen lakkaa satamasta." which translates to "When it stops raining, I'll get (some) varnish from harbor." One another example I always like to tell is another Finnish phrase, "Voi teitä, joulukuusi palaa." which translates to Swedish as "Smör väger, julsexan kommer tillbaka." which translates to English as "Butter roads, christmas six comes back." while the original sentence should translate to "Oh no[with an implication that the person saying the sentence is talking to someone], christmas tree is burning."

So as you can see, translation isn't something we can yet do automatically in browser or even in a lab environment.

- isn't it about time that graphics become stronger in the browser, hardware accelerated?

Longhorn will most likely change that since with it you can build web pages using the internal WGF controls (WGF is basically the next version of Direct3D). Assuming of course that the support gets shipped with the product.

wouldn't it be cool if we could write notes on webpages or perhaps delete the parts of a webpage that we are not interested in so that it doesn't clutter our view?

We can already do that. The site (usually) just has to support it.

- php/asp does have several disadvantages. That it always have to reload the pages, which disables caching if you for example press a button is quite sad, even though it is more secure. This makes browsing pretty slow even on fast connections.

Depends how well the actual site is done. If the PHP-based site is made by some 12-year old with "PHP for Dummies" as a reference I wouldn't be suprised if the site would run very slow.

- and pre-caching. This has always baffled me that it's not used. When you go to a page I think it would make all the sense in the world to pre-cache some of the links, it could use statistics to pre-cache the most visited links for example so that those will always be downloaded and possible to instantly select.

I thought this feature existed in Firefox? In any case, there's been utilities at least for IE to do that for years now. Can't name any since I don't use them though.

- just smaller things like better help would sure be nice. Tutorials anyone. Yes we don't need them, but my folks sure do. Clear movie tutorials made with camtasia that show exactly how to search for things on google, how to save bookmarks etc.

ZBrush 2-style tutorials would be even more nice but yes, basic usage tutorials are always nice.

- also the bookmark systems is not good in IE. it's performance wise very slow sometimes for no reason, it's hard to move around bookmarks and it easily becomes a mess. Why not have a "gallery" thumbnail preview, where all your screen switches to thumbnails with both the name and a small picture of the site.

"Gallery preview" would take a lot of screen space and that wouldn't be very convenient. Small thumbnails wouldn't be clear enough to bring any use for the feature. This may change in the future though when even bigger resolutions and screens come to general use.

- pictures. In IE, I always hated the way they control pictures. Firefox is far better, but still not perfect. I would like to have a superfast way of just saving pictures to a special folder. Excellent if you are collecting photos for reference. It should also automatically name the pictures if there is a collision, since many people name the pictures "pic1.jpg"

This reminds me of a certain site that promotes Firefox as a better browser because it's great for saving porn sites... :D

So, that was just a small collection of ideas, there is sure alot to do.

/Andreas

If you have even more ideas you can always mail/post them to MS thru IE blog (http://blogs.msdn.com/ie).

f97ao
02-22-2005, 02:01 PM
Some answers
- Language translations. Yep this is very complicated I know, but the technology exists to some extent and it would be possible to make things way way better. How about this. A lexicon? Just right click a word and you got the translation to your language? Simple and surely not impossible to do.
- caching, yes there exist other tools, but this should really be in the core of the program. Fast browsing should be a high priority imho.

/Andreas

julesverne
03-01-2005, 06:51 PM
anyone who uses ie, must have not heard about mozilla

dotTom
03-01-2005, 06:58 PM
Dunno, I'll probably get flamed for this but I pretty much consider web browsers to be a solved problem. What I really want is high rez web on the move, some kind of Tablet PC derivative the size of a A5 notebook with a 200 DPI screen, a 4 hour battery life and a very fast 2+Mbit wireless connection. Ah well, I guess we'll have to wait for Longhorn for the high DPI bit, the rest will come along in 2006 / 7.

And yes I've looked at FireFox etc, it's just for me things have to be at least twice as good to be worth the hassle of moving over, and as good as FireFox is I wouldn't say it's twice as good as IE 6.x. In fact truth be told I think they both have their strengths and weaknesses. :) I guess I'll probably be flamed more for taking the middle-road than even suggesting Microsoft's stuff isn't totally crap :hmm:

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