CGTalk - Do you have a legal or Illegal version of 3dsmax?

vertex

02-14-2002, 01:12 AM

As you will see I both support the Developers of software and agree with people using less than legal versions.

The first package I purchased was strata 1 on Mac then I moved to sculpt 3d, eventually I bought 3ds R4 because it completely blew the mac software away on machines with a much lower spec. Then I upgraded to max with cstudio and have lived there ever since.

At the same time I hate it when software companies constantly bleet on about lost revenue. Its such Bullsh!?, most of the people who are using the copies of max couldn't afford to buy it any way and use it for non commercial stuff. where's the harm in that, I wonder how many people who now work on Max fulltime started out on a pirate version. I wonder how that the number of dodgy copies out there contributed to the no.1 position that Max holds.

The true enemy of software developers are companies who use these products to earn money and refuse to pay the license fees, not the hobiest users. As long as they aren't selling cd's of software where's the harm.

vertex

little

02-23-2002, 05:49 AM

i now own close to 10 grand in legal software and just about that much hardware ( i spent more on my comp stuff then all 3 of my cars ) but i started out with hacked copies of every thing after i learned how it worked then i started making money with it and bought it. i have no problem with someone learning on a hacked copy think about how many 15 year olds are on this forum and all the other 3d forums. now think who was the last 15 year old you saw with an extra 3 grand for software. i think anyone that makes mney with it should buy it but if you dont make money with it and dont sell it and happen to walk into a copy i dont see the problem. i might be wrong but if i am please someone tell me why.

Dragonius

02-23-2002, 11:06 PM

being a poor student, i have no problem with illegal copies of software - i can barely afford to maintain my hardware let alone pay for software.

saying that, once i'm qualified and get a job... (hopefully)... i'll buy full copies of any software i want to use - earning money off of illegal copies is bad...

PetePap

03-13-2002, 09:51 AM

I use an Illegal version but thats mainly because I don't have the money to spend on the proper version and this is only a little hobby for me. Nothing else and I would never sell my work or anything.

Flynn

03-13-2002, 10:38 AM

Well I truly believe that 3dsMax and even the old 3ds....were made as popular as they are today becouse it is the most bootlegged 3d app around. And since a lot of companies are going to hire people based on the current availabilty of 3d users...they will sometimes lean toward what "most" people are using.

And lets be honest, $4000 is not targeted toward people who are in school or just trying to learn the product. It is for the companies that hire them. And I know some may say "well what about an educational version?" I still think $1500 (last time I checked) is a lot to pay for software just to learn it.....I truly believe by learning the product and getting hired bya company to use the product will help Discreets sales in the long run.

I personally talked one of the companies I work for, to purchase MAX for doing some 3d flash stuff (yeah I know web job, but it was before the big .com bash)
And If I used Lightwave 3d instead I would have talked them into getting that....see my point?
I also know 2 other people that did the same thing at their jobs....so I would imagine this happens a lot.

So imo as long as you use it to learn, not to profit. I dont see a problem with it.

And I think that Alias/wavefront learned all this, and that is why they are offering a free version of maya. And to a lesser extent that is why we have gmax from Discreet. All though Gmax is not the same as max4 it is targeted toward the number one area that Max excels, and that is in gaming.

anyway this is all just my opinion....and I truly believe if you are making money with a product you should pay for it...Its just the professional thing to do.

zkydz

03-13-2002, 07:10 PM

It's truly a sticky issue and one that presents a lot of paradoxes. I tend toward the 'learn on what you can, but buy the damned thing when you start working' theory. The benefits of licensed software are just too good. Support, upgrades and a chance to show work without worry at user groups and such. The problem areas are where people are making money off of the sale and use of the product. MAYA has the right idea, but geez, do you think that watermark could be any worse? Discreet has the worst upgrade path to a pro version from the student version. You'd think there would be a break for the people who spent thousands of dollars on educating themselves on a specific software.

I can't tell you how many times I've tried a hacked copy of a pogram only to later think "Wow, I'm so glad that I didn't blow that $200 to $5000 on that peice of yutz." It's not like they lend out copies of it to try and I'm not one for getting involved with the huge"Getting mail everytime a program I didn't like decides their new whatever needs my attention" schtick.

zkydz

isome

03-14-2002, 09:00 AM

...strange thing, but i agree, max hacks and cracks have helped max get where it is. it just makes too much sense, how can so many people want to use max at work? i'm not an analyst or anything, nor do claim to know any 'insiders', but it just seems like a logical conclusion....

for the record, i have legal copies of my software...

epatnor

03-14-2002, 07:54 PM

Originally posted by kiwisheep
As a software developer and a user of 3D software, I don't agree to software piracy. It hurts both company (innovator) and the users (benefactors). No one wins and both loses. How can we expect companies to develop/fix/enhanced their products, if we steal software from them? This illegal practice destroys the industry.

I prefer that companies should offer "really cheap" educational version of their products but to provide an option to upgrade to a professional version.

Well, here it is: in principal I agree with kiwisheep. But - if the companies doesn't provide the little man with fully working "demo" versions, preferrably with time bomb functionality and maybe discreet watermarks, then this is bound to happen.

For me, I would never hide the fact that I right now use a "non registered" copy of my software. BUT! If and when I feel that my work made with it goes beyond just play and learning for fun, then I will most definately save up to buy the box. As a matter of fact, I surf the webshops every week to check the pricing of this product - but so far it stays in the solid 3-4000$ price range...:rolleyes:

My point: a producer of content, commercial or non commercial, should pay the price to recieve the documentation and support sorely neended. If the person views his or her artwork in a serious manner - the same.

But for the guy who have CG dreams, but just don't have the cash to invest (in most cases before he or she has decided on a career in the field), this is an impossibility! Of course, he could download an eval version of another 3D app, or buy yet another, real cheap one - but... you know...

Anyway, for the little futile attempts I do on the software, it's only for training and fun so far.

But I'm planning to buy it! Serious! :grin:

BTW the ugly box shaped space ships that is created throughout the world is not a threat to the developer or the companies. But it is also true that on a large scale and in production, there should be no illegal use of software. I can't help think about the poor programmers and designers slaving to bring the world a better product. :(

For the record and in contrast - I always buy the games I play, for they are within the price range I'm prepared to pay.

:annoyed: For those who wants to send me angry emails: take a look at the votes and remember that we are on CG Talk. I don't think that every brilliant challenge contribution is created with registered software... ;)

Cheers!

epatnor

03-14-2002, 08:56 PM

BTW, lildragon, pascal, or sigma, could we please make this topic a little sticky for some time? I think it's an important subject and it is very interesting to see the results.

Thx

_Icarus

03-15-2002, 02:24 AM

Another thing, there are 3D Artists in other countries out there where $3000 US for software will buy you a house and a car. In other cases its extrimly expensive costing there half year salary. That where people use cracked software, where it costs $5 for a copy of 3D Studio MAX with pirate CDs.

Sangotten

03-15-2002, 06:05 PM

I think we could say:

If you make money/profits with the software, you should pay for the package.

If use it for learning and fun, try using a demo, a cheaper version or if there's no other way a illegal software copy.

I hate to say this but it is about money....so rip Microsoft!;) but try keep your hands clean when our beloved software companies are at stake!

kiwisheep

03-15-2002, 11:21 PM

Well I guess 3D books should also be free or should be photocopied because we are only learning from them too and not profiting from them! Tell that to the publisher and the author.

Profiting from an illegal software is not only in terms of money but also in terms of knowledge. Don't you consider the knowledge that you gain to use this illegal software, a profit but in non-monetary terms? After all knowledge translates to $$$, isn't it?

Flynn

03-16-2002, 02:31 AM

well if a 3d book costs over $3000 I would agree with you.....but alas they dont.

Like I said before right or wrong illegal copies being used have helped 3ds/max in popularity, which in turn helps them sell more copies to the places they are targeting in the first place.....companies.

and for the record knowledge does not always translate into $$. what if your not good at max? what if you cant find work? what if you decide that 3d is not for you?

Flynn

03-16-2002, 02:36 AM

oh yeah and again...if your a professional using max to generate income....buy it!!!!

also forgot to mention I own max :)

matro

03-18-2002, 07:28 AM

This is indeed a sticky subject. For the record, I use a fully legit copy of Max R4 that I obtained through school. Unfortunately, that was the only way I could have gotten my paws on this kind of stuff other than illegal versions. As a student, my resources are extremely limited, and I still have to worry about paying for college. I agree with the majority of you guys that the Maya way is the direction that should be taken. I'm a newbie in the extreme and still trying to learn the ropes with this stuff. What limited knowledge I have is restricted Max and Rhino, and I am this far only because I have a wonderful and resourceful CAD and Drafting teacher. A lot of us don't, and as things stand right now, it is very difficult to get into this field without being illegal. I think that in the long run, the industry is just hurting itself by not accomidating the budding student as well as they could be. Just my 10 cents worth.

-Matro- :buttrock:

Nanoflux

03-20-2002, 03:48 AM

The evil circle of life and money:

I-> No money -> No 3dsmax -> no job opportunity ->I
I------<----------------------<------------------------<---------I

I found a way out of this mess and Discreet didnt loose any money in the process. First I used a ripped copy to teach myself the program, then I got emplyed by a Televisioncompany by showing of those skills, and last but not least, I got that company to buy a registered copy of 3dsmax which I'm now using for Visual FX.

Thats why I don't find anythin bad in using ripped software AS LONG as you dont profit from it. You use it to reach a certain position in life where you're able to invest in it on your own.

Ant that's my opinon.

Tace care!

zkydz

03-20-2002, 07:14 AM

Kiwisheep: I think the comparisons you make are a little drastic. first off, I can go buy a used book for dirt cheap and it's mine all mine. I can loan it to a friend, I can gie it away and i don't have someone telling me that I don't own it. I only lease it and have no transferable rights I can't go buy a used copy of software...at all..and expect the same treatment. Am I supporting ripping off a company? No. Also, again, these companies don't really take into account the students who are working, or worse, working parents and are spending every penny on schooling. They don't reward that effort, yet, there are many book clubs that are around that help these same students. As for knowledge translating into money, well, I think the over riding philosophy here has been presented as, if that knowledge does make money, then buy it. It's only right. As soon as I went pro, I got legit.

zkydz

Goreld

03-20-2002, 07:41 PM

I believe an issue that also needs to be addressed is this- WHY does the software cost so much? It seems as if people take for granted that 3D software is incredibly expensive, without ever questioning that cost.
Does programming the software genuinely take so much effort that the company requires the hefty price tag to recoup development costs? Does it cost so much just because there's so few good 3d packages that there's no competition to drive the price down, or is there some other factor?

Flynn

03-21-2002, 12:23 PM

well I do think the price is reasonable ....any professional software that you use can cost a crap load of money. look at Generator for flash...last I checked that software was $10,000. there are many other progams that cost even more then that.

I think they price it based on what it will be used for....since mainly a small amount of companies would need high end 3d applications and those companies will normally have a high return on product they can justify the price.

its all supply and demand I guess.....just remember how much Maya cost when it came out.....Prices have come down as demand got higher, And this will continue as more and more companies decide they need a 3d "solution".

on the other hand however, it does suck if your a student or just someone who wants to learn the software. They really need to either offer it for free or at a way lower price-point for educational versions. Otherwise people will be using cracked copies of their full versions. which I did when I started out.

parallax

03-22-2002, 03:29 PM

its a pretty difficult topic to discuss.
The copying of books point is very interesting.
A LOT of people using cracked software actually do buy the 50$ books to learn them. I think lots of publishers even benefit from students using cracked warez.
That doesnt make it right to use warez though. But to say every that student or hobbiest using pirated software without making money with it, is a common criminal is a bit strong.
Hell, i'm a student, i have a VERY small budget to say the least, and lots of students dont even have a proper computer.
Schools/universities should pay for the software though, they have no exuse at all, because they earn money teaching students.
Maybe there should be a new form a software licensing. Something like educational versions wich you could take home with you if you are enrolled in a discreet (or any other dev.co.) using college.
Its not like i'm in college for free. Its costing me an arm and a leg.
the students-warez problem should be solved by the school, and maybe with the help of the software companies.

i'm outta here.
have a nice weekend lads.

Ikarus

03-25-2002, 04:56 AM

I don't use max, but Lightwave and a registered copy. This is a touchy issue as it can go both ways. I have mix feeling about it. If it's for school/study purposes I don't see much of a problem, but it can becomes a thread in the long run to legal users of 3d/design/multimedia software.

Quote from kiwisheep-
"Profiting from an illegal software is not only in terms of money but also in terms of knowledge. Don't you consider the knowledge that you gain to use this illegal software, a profit but in non-monetary terms? After all knowledge translates to $$$, isn't it?"

I totally agree with kiwisheep, knoweledge is money only if you know what to do wit it. I feel that if your going to school for any form of visual arts like 3d/cg/desgin/web/multimedia/etc. your are spending money for tuition, books, materials for your classes, and any other form of expenses of college/school living. So what makes the software any different than the books you pay for, the tuition you pay for, your notebooks/pens/papers you pay for, etc. It's that fact that you can easily get it illegally on the internet. So would it make it right if you can easily walk into a the school library and sneak out the Maya/3dMax/Lighwave book out just because it's easily achievabe and accomplished. For those of you who say that it's to much money even as a student, I know what your talking about I went through it, that's why they have educational licenses of the software 3D Max $500, Maya complete $500, Maya unlimited $750, heck you can get photshop/illustrator and a couple of other adobe educational licenses for under $500. I feel that if your seriously about what you want to do than money shouldn't be that much of an obstacle, but I know that not everybody's case is the same. I had friends who were running cracked software in their homes for study and school purposes. And I've also seen people that after using it for school and study purposes started to get some freelance jobs out of it. So that's when knowledge becomes money by using pirated software

I feel that it doesn't just affect the developers/ software companies, but also the 3D artist/designers/etc who use legal software in the long run. How would you feel the if the job you were applying for was given to a person who learned everything he/she knows through cracked software? Of if your bidding on a job and your competition uses cracked software? In the long run we are all competitors in the same arena, it's like sports some people train hard to get were they are, while others try to cut every corner they can and take shortcuts.

I guess people feel that if your not making money out if it is ok, I kinda agree on this but not completely, because like kiwisheep said you are getting knowledge out of it and after a certain point your knowledge becomes a skill that you have the power to use to make money. And let's be real ther are still people out there who use cracked software to make money and still refuse to pay for the software, which I don't like cause they are my competition and every other artist's as well.

And if this is nothing but a hobby, there is plenty of cheap/free software out there(poser, bryce, animation master, blender, paintshop pro, etc), granted they might not be as high end as some of the packages but not every hobby in the world is cheap(you don't see car collectors complainning they should make cars cheaper so that they can continue with their hobby)

I hope I didn't offend anybody here, I just hope that in the long run people who are using it and making money out of cracked software will come to their senses and shell out the money for the legal version. As I started in school with cracked software as well, but came to my sensesand make some financial sacrifieces, had to but buying some things on hold or stop wasting money on things I could do without and saving up as much as I could and brough legal copies (last years income return helped me out too :))

One last thing that I find funny when I was attending school I knew of people who would spend anywhere from $2000-$5000 :wip: hooking up their cars and complainning how expensive software was and saying there was no way they would pay a couple of hundred dollars for the software they would technically be using for school/work in the future. What do you think of people like this?:confused:

Flynn

03-25-2002, 10:27 PM

I would agree with the school comparison....however last time I checked 3dsmax does not come with a teacher or a degree. (which is what you are really paying for)

I will say this, when I checked the educational version of max it was $1500 and you had to be in school. If it is down to $500 that is a lot better and I probably would have bought that instead of using a cracked copy.

I also disagree that these tools should be limited to people who have money...think of the amazing talent that would be stiffled..it would truly be a shame. and I have no problem losing a job to someone who used a cracked copy of max....if they are better suited for the job, then so be it. I do not think that all the jobs should be for the people who are lucky enough to be able to afford all the tools needed to persue their dream.

one thing that makes me happy however is that we all seem to agree that using illegal software to make a profit is beyond acceptable.

rremzie

03-25-2002, 11:25 PM

Well, I use an illigal version of 3ds max, this is because a can't aford it, I also can't get the student version , because i'm still on High School(17 years).

But on the moment I found a replacement for the moment, I'm working with wings3d now(i'm only modeling on the moment, still learning).

I totally agree that using illegal software is bad.

VI2

03-30-2002, 03:12 PM

Unfortunatly, companies try to protect their software with all these so called hardware and software locks, which only make it more difficult for the legit users. I've found it difficult in the past the hassle I had to go though to getting auth codes and what not. Now days I buy the software and find a crack to use it... The best of both works IMO. Its impossible to stop pirating, and it's stupid to make it harder for the people that pay.

Latuman

03-30-2002, 09:02 PM

Well, no money no honey... If I wouldnt cheat :)

three

04-02-2002, 05:08 PM

as long as the companies that actually create the program doesn't get more than 5 to 10 % of the complete amount i don't fu*king care if someone either makes money out of their legal copy or just play around in it.

Money should go to the developers and not the guys selling of the finished product [ie. Virgin and other non-productive companies]

my 2 cents.

/3, out.

zkydz

04-02-2002, 09:20 PM

Having gone professional and now not using a cracked version, I find the next dilemma. What to buy. If I use MAX on my two computers, I can only legally use it on one machine and simply let the other be a "render farm". This seems to be strange in that it's still only me using the software and would like to be able to work while the other machine renders all by itself. I don't want the older machine to be juggling my activity and the rendering. I also want to be able to set up a series of files that I can monitor and fix on the fly if something goes wrong. I can launch multiple instances of MAX on my XP machine. SO:

1. What's the difference between using multiple instances on one machine and using the software on my second machine?

2. It's still me using the one copy, so why is it illegal for me to use my own software?

3. With the price drops in LW and MAYA, if I have to get a multiple license, I seriously have to consider the options. I can get two copies of the competitors for the same price of a single MAX *and* don't have to get plug-ins that drive the cost of MAX even higher?

It's tough, but since the topic is cracked vs. legal copies, this is part of the issue. I am now faced with learning a new program due to restrictive licensing and totally new purchases that will take place this year. I can keep MAX and still invest in a new package, slowly phase out MAX and take the savings and invest them into several options now.

This really sucks big time.

zkydz

Joel Hooks

04-02-2002, 10:04 PM

Originally posted by VI2
Now days I buy the software and find a crack to use it... The best of both works IMO. Its impossible to stop pirating, and it's stupid to make it harder for the people that pay.

You still violate the TOS and essentially commit the same crime as if you just outright rip the software.

Technically speaking that is.

I've used cracked copies of pretty much every piece of GFX software out there. Just to try them out. 3ds MAX I have legit license for, and have been responsible for at least 11 seats of MAX being purchased for me by various employers.

I don't feel too guilty about learning 3d on WaReZ copies of 3d Studio r3-4 :)

LFShade

04-03-2002, 12:22 AM

Software piracy is illegal. Period. If I spent the time and considerable effort to develop a piece of software, I'd have the expectation of getting paid for my work.

If you claim that you use pirated software because the prices are just way too high, then I assume you would be okay with the notion of stealing a Ferrari. Is that true? Should you be able to do that with impunity, just because the manufacturer made the car too expensive for you to afford? And if you think the analogy is flawed because you're not stealing software from any particularindividual such as you would be doing with the car, then I guess I'd have to agree in part: instead of an individual, you are affecting ALL purchasers of the product with increased costs! In that way it is perhaps worse than stealing the car.

When you pay for a software product, you're not paying solely for the right to profit from it's use, you're paying for the right to use it at all. Therefore, even if you're 'just using it to learn with', you're still violating not only the law, but the time-honored principles of commerce and trade.

If you're using pirated software, keep it to yourself. It doesn't make sense to come out here on the web and try to justify what is inarguably wrong. Personally, I won't comment on the status of the software in my possession;)

sitonthefence

04-03-2002, 03:13 AM

I find the issues involved on this subject far more convoluted than have been discussed so far here but the Ferrari comment has made me react before I can best articulate some of the things this whole thing throws up though I too would say that this is possibly not the best place to throw up the issuein the first place.

For whatever reason it is unlikely anyone that could be vaguely judged as being pro piracy is going to loose that opinion or that anyone judged as being anti is going to change that view either or either party concede each others points.

However a few things that might be bourne in mind perhaps:

"When you pay for a software product, you're not paying solely for the right to profit from it's use, you're paying for the right to use it at all."

Yes that good old sleight of law, the software licence, an abuse in many ways of all commercial trade.....charge someone as if they are buying a product but when your are actually leasing (though not on a time basis) the right to use it and deny the right to sell it on or back should you no longer need it or it proove not be what you were lead to believe it was.
Would any sane and rational person buy any other tool under that agreement? One would hope not. hey bud, got a spanner, yup but you can't sell it on afterwards.. you don't really own it you know. etc etc etc... and that's the law.

You wanna be a racing driver.. ok you have to find the intial outlay for karting etc but any talent and you stand the chance of being spotted and sponsored.. you may like a Ferrari but you don't need one but you may attract Ferraris attention. Otherwise a Ferrari is a luxury good like a Rolex.. not a tool that you need to earn a living.

OK learn on Blender, it's free and pretty well featured. It is .. go tell that to the companies who are hiring that poo poo it and currently all seem to be asking for at least 3 years experience of Maya and given Maya's cost 3 years ago, how many individuals could afford it and if you learn it working for a company .. they really want to let you go???

Yeah but if you are really talented they will overide that....possibly true.. how many people in any studio are REALLY talented.. far less than 50% I would judge from my experience, but you still need that other 50% to get jobs done though you might not have the resources or inclination to train them to the software you use uf they don't already know it.

Well get an educational version.. fine .. what if you decide it's not for you to go or return to college.. how do you get an educational version..... you can't .. live with it...oh ok.

Well I been through school but I need to update my demo reel and can't afford the software yet. Tough.. no-one allows you or offers to hire you software on a time basis.. live with it. or get a bank loan

But the bank won't loan me money to get software because it's worth less... oh

The sad fact is that all the software companies and the studios that are hiring want you to learn and use the software but no one is willing to help you do so. The tide on this is changing with XSI experience and Maya PLE being released but that is very recent and it is arguable how useful either really are in reality. Until the software companies do more to help people who want to learn their products legally then often practically the only viable route to learning for many is through using illegal versions. Again Mayas price cuts are commendable and also Maxon have been very good at offering ways of people getting into using their products.. i.e basically hire purchase ways of getting hold of C4D, but on the other hand a lot more could be done. Most people that use pirated copies of software to learn or browse either wouldn't (because it fails to live up to hype) or couldn't (finances) buy it so it is erroneous to think that the companies are in real terms loosing money through this.. though they are indeed by people that use it commercially and that it something that very few would condone.

Post script.. hands up (and be honest) How many people, including all those that are working in studios and even major software companies or have ranted on places like High End 3D have never ever used a piece of pirated software.

:)

LFShade

04-03-2002, 05:12 AM

I hear you. And there may be a measure of logic to what you are saying. But your argument is mostly one of semantics, and it evades the reality of the situation software companies find themselves in with regard to software piracy.

I'll grant that software licenses probably should allow for the resale of the product in an ideal world, one where nobody is dishonest. But this restriction is probably imposed reasonably, due to the ease of reproducing the product. This is a special case with software as opposed to traditional products like cars or electronics. If I bought a Sony television, then found an easy way to manufacture more of them in my garage, I'm sure I'd shortly get at the very least a cease and desist from the Sony corporation. And they would be right to serve me with it! Okay, so that's not a very realistic scenario. But with software it is, and provisions must be made so that companies don't lose money in that way.

And as to the argument that companies aren't losing money from people who would not be able to afford to purchase anyway? Legally, it doesn't hold water, and it's all because of a concept called 'potential earnings'. Let's say I create a product. In exchange for the use of my product, I require an individual to pay for it. Whenever someone finds a way to use it without paying for it, in the eyes of the law I have 'lost' the money that the person should have paid me. That he didn't have enough money is extraneous to the argument (see the Ferrari analogy above).

Furthermore, I'd like to examine your race car driver analogy. If you're going to become a professional race car driver, the race car becomes the "tool that you need to earn a living", just as Maya, Max, LW, etc. are the tools 3D artists need to earn theirs.

Let me put it this way: In order to be a race car driver, you need to learn to drive race cars. In order to learn to drive race cars, you need a race car to practice with. In order to obtain a race car to practice with, you need to either know a generous person or company with a race car who is willing to let you use it for free, or you need to pay someone for the use of a race car.

Or, you could just steal a race car, which would be wrong!

Substitute 'Maya' for 'race car' and 'use/user' for 'drive/driver', and you'll see that you have helped make my point;)

!race car race car race car!

sitonthefence

04-03-2002, 07:22 AM

"In order to obtain a race car to practice with, you need to either know a generous person or company with a race car who is willing to let you use it for free, or you need to pay someone for the use of a race car. "

Whilst ostensibly this is true, it tries to make a comparison of two infrastructures that whilst similar are not quite of the same standing. In both cases you need to know the basic principles of and be able to use the tools of the trade. Motor racing is a far more rarified and competitive business than 3D yet the aid and sponsorship given is far greater. You show great driving skill and even from an early age, it is liable that you will be picked up by one of the companies and not only aided in your proffession, but paid also, whether by the manufacturer, or the team or an outside body that wants to be associated with the sport. You are not expected to be tool specific and if your initial outlay does not pay off you can sell the goods you bought
and not loose everything. You are not expected to buy a Ferrari/proffesional roadcar off your own bat or certainly, then not to be able to cut your losses by selling it on if it doesn't work out.

One of the biggest problems here is that computer programmes and the mediums which they use have not evolved in a sufficient manner so as to be protected in a reasonable way so it is deemed the consumer should suffer, which he/she does and it still hasn't done anything to solve the problem of piracy in real terms.

Legally, yes using those programmes, even if not for profit may indeed be deemed as illegal ..but it real terms that is not lost revenue , just as the avid record collector who thinks he has accquired a small fortune because Record Collector says the old vynil he has is worth $250,000 and then finds out in real terms either no one is either able or willing to part with that sum of cash for it.

Personally, my biggest problem here is that an infrastructure has been created that is akin to a psuedo aristocracy based primarily on wealth, and that doesn't benefit anyone but the wealthy. Hence the risible call in some quarters at Maya's price reductions.. oh no!!! now anyone can do it etc etc. The studios and the software companies all in theory want to see the best talent surface within the industry yet, even in a supposedly affluent society like the USA, let alone anywhere with poorer economies, a lot is in place to throw it back to wealth. In some countries, even buying a copy of Lightwave is an incredibly ambitious enterprise. Consequently if a means exists that circumnavigates that, then a lot are going to take it. Regardless of the legality issue, if studios and the software manufacturers want to try and claim the moral high ground, then a lot more work has to be done to deserve that moral high ground. It is doubtful that without enforced genetic alteration of the human species that piracy will ever be erradicated, but a lot more could be done to make it not be given excuses to exist, including the software companies offering better educational and demo versions, buying strategies that allowed for outlay not to have to be done all in one go upfront, more modular versions of the actual programmes and a whole less bullshit about the actual products.

racing car racing car racing car

:)

LFShade

04-03-2002, 10:52 AM

It is doubtful that without enforced genetic alteration of the human species that piracy will ever be erradicated, but a lot more could be done to make it not be given excuses to exist, including the software companies offering better educational and demo versions, buying strategies that allowed for outlay not to have to be done all in one go upfront, more modular versions of the actual programmes and a whole less bullshit about the actual products.

To that last sentence I must agree. But then again, so does the whole industry, and that's the reason for the price breaks and learning versions sprouting up recently. I cannot deny that there will always be software piracy, any more than I can reasonably deny that there will always be violent crime. It does, indeed, come with the territory of being the creatures that we are. But the prevalence of the act is not my argument - rather it is the pitiful justification for the act that warranted my remarks. If you're going to do it, fine! But at the very least, own up to the fact that what you're doing is not legal, and is perhaps not moral. Don't blame the 'victims' (it's a stretch, I know:)) for the crime you're committing! That's all I'm saying:)

It's been a pleasant debate! Thank you all for following along, and thanks, sitonthefENCE (:eek: no offense intended, it was late), for your comments.

LFShade,
signing off

rendermonkey23

04-03-2002, 10:56 AM

sitontheface? :) Nice typo... j/k

sitonthefence

04-03-2002, 05:00 PM

:wip: Certainly made me laugh.. hell it might even inspire me to go off and do a bit of 'practicing':wip::p :)

LFShade

04-04-2002, 01:06 AM

Honestly, it was unintentional. Don't know what I might have been thinking:(

Hope you're not too offended, sitonthefence?

LFShade
now OFFICIALLY signing off:)

norman619

04-04-2002, 08:27 AM

I agree. Tho the the software companies would never admit it, illegal coppies of their software help make them become popular. I mean get real. The people with the illegal copies are those in school or hobbyists. Neither group can afford the stuff. Illegal copies help those really good artists out there that can not afford to shell out the big bucks it takes to go to an art school and/or pay for a legit copy just to learn it. This creates an established user base from which the companies hire. They are the ones that help the companies decide which package they will outfit their workstations with. A professional should not have any trouble paying for a legit copy. As was pointed out before, Alias|Wavefront and SoftImage both know this to be true and have given away fully functional copies of their stuff. I downloaded MAYA PLE and ordered a copy of XSI2. Why steal it when they are willing to help you learn it by giving it to you? :D

norman619

04-04-2002, 08:57 AM

If you honestly feel that someone can beat you out of a job simply because they learned on pirated software you are not being honest with yourself. That person that beat you out of a job was a BETTER artist. The skills he/she has have nothing to do with the tool. The programmers of these applications most likely can not produce the quality of work you can with it. Even tho they have a much better understanding of how the thing works. Art comes from within not from the tools you use. And hell yes I feel if you are making money from it you better pay for a legit copy. The programmers provided you with that tool which you are using to pay your bills. It's only right you give back to those that made it possible. :o

Michael

04-04-2002, 01:43 PM

Hmm interesting points here and there.
First let me adress the racecar theory, If I bought a race car, at least Im allowed to sell it if I wanted to, dont have to ask the manufacturer or anything. I must admit that I cant see how the companies are allowed to refuse u to sell something you have bought and paid $3000++ for. Or have to ask tehir permission.
And the constant new versions....Theyre usually not that big changes..(now I have only used MAX and dont know with other programs) and the upgrade isnt worth 1/3 of the programs price....In some cases probably, but as I said, havent used anything else than max.
My last comment is, in the last issue of 3dworld magazine, there were an ad for 3dsmax, which said:
"Most of the games that people cant live without are made with 3ds max"
My first thought was; is this targeted to me, an adult person, which are in the game industry, to go: WOW are they?...boss boss! we have to ditch xx3d to get 3dsMAX!!!(now do i use max, but for the example i use myself). This is TV shop advertising, or, as I first thought,"directed" to newcommers, who wants to get into the industry, but as most of knows, a 17 year old person cant afford $3000. So i felt this ad kinda advertised, get max, no matter what, legal or illegal, get a job and buy the product.

Offcourse my screwed up mind could be far off, or Discreet uses the same agency as TVShop.
Who am I who can judge discreet ads...its just my personal opinion, which Im entitled to.

Oh and BTW, Im with the; if you make money from it, buy it.

Michael

zkydz

04-04-2002, 05:30 PM

""If you honestly feel that someone can beat you out of a job simply because they learned on pirated software you are not being honest with yourself. That person that beat you out of a job was a BETTER artist. The skills he/she has have nothing to do with the tool. ""

There are many reasons that a person can beat someone else out of a job. Being a better artist is not really a skill. There does have to be talent. The skill applies to the knowledge and experience with tools. Yes, the skill to use a tool is how youu express that creativity. I do agree that the brunt of the comment is correct though.

""I downloaded MAYA PLE and ordered a copy of XSI2. Why steal it when they are willing to help you learn it by giving it to you?""

I think that the companies are realizing that there is a legitimate reason that people have been using cracked copies and this is a way to address this. I think it is a major step in the right direction.

""The people with the illegal copies are those in school or hobbyists. Neither group can afford the stuff.""

Not really. There are many companies who use cracked copies. It is these unscrupulous companies that really tick me off. Them and the ones who sell the cracked copies. It is they who really taint the philosophy of using somethin to learn on.

By the way, as far as the race car theory goes, here's a few wrinkles in the comparison. I can go to my brother Bubba Petty and use his spare car (I'm too poor to afford my own) to learn on a dirt track in off time. I can use it, I can drive it to work, I can sharpen many skills needed to enter my first race. After that I can progress as far as my natural talent will take me. This gets me sponsorship and I don't have to buy so much as roll over that sponsorship into bigger and better. With software, it's not the same. Bubba couldn't have given me my start on his car. I also don't have to re-learn how to drive completely everytime I advanced to a more sophisticated car. The gears work the same, the brakes are right where I expect them and everything is still called the same thing (carbeurator, fanbelt, solenoid..etc) and I don't have to re-learn a complete new toolset from scratch. If you look at each competitor in software, it's starting from scratch with all the toolsets and philosophies. There is no step up style like in racing. You can't go from blender to Max to Maya and really know what to do and where. Companies don't have time to explain things to you on a tight deadline. It is encumbent upon you to become proficient to secure work. This is more like race car driving to airplane racing in a single step.

zkydz

three

04-04-2002, 05:46 PM

"The programmers provided you with that tool which you are using to pay your bills. It's only right you give back to those that made it possible."

One point correct. The programmers provided you with the tool. And if the money I spent on a copy of say 3D Studio MAX 4 would go directly to the developers, then I would be more than happy to pay.
As it is now, developers work for shit and get just about nothing.

/3, out

bassaminator

04-04-2002, 06:35 PM

It seems to me that piracy hurts free/cheap software packages much more than the high dollar ones that get ripped off. Most beginners can afford or get free programs, that, in all fairness, are usually NOT there with the more famous ones, but that are perfectly good for beginners (and with a larger user base stand a better chance of surviving/improving). Instead, most new users turn to pirated copies of max/maya/soft etc., so the cheapies and freebies (hash,truespace,blender,realsoft, etc.) never see the light of day- so to speak.

Mr Snow

04-04-2002, 06:41 PM

Well, first off, let me say that I'm from South Africa. I have dabbled a bit with blender, but haven't really done much of anything else with 3d programs before. I don't currently use any 3d programs... I would like to, though. And here's my dilemma. I'm a fairly experienced programmer, earning a good salary. A very good salary... By South African standards. For me to purchase 3ds Max, would require my ENTIRE salary for roughly 6 months, at current exchange rates :eek:. (that's with only income tax deducted.) I currently earn between three and four times the national average salary. I have no intention of becoming a professional graphic artist, but would still like to try out the tools. I'm a firm believer in buying what I use, but in this case, there is absolutely no way I can justify that sort of cash outlay. Even the how-to books are getting terribly expensive here - about 15% of my monthly salary for a decent book on 3dsmax. :annoyed: Even lowly computer games are beyond the reach of a majority of this countries inhabitants. Some companies have recognised the problem, and are doing something about it, like Electronic Arts, for instance... I can buy an EA game here for about half the price you can get the same game in America. But even so, by South African standards, that's still quite expensive. Ferrari a luxury? Heck, it's got to the point here that even a Toyota Corolla is a luxury! Even an entry level computer is about double the average household's total monthly income. Er.... I'm ranting, aren't I?
Anyway, the point I was actually aiming for, is that something like 3dsmax is out of range even for most small to medium sized companies in this country, never mind individuals. Being a programmer myself, I can understand the frustration of seeing all your hard work being pirated, and getting nothing back for it, but on the other hand, if people just CAN'T afford your product, then you can expect them to make alternative plans... I try to keep as much of my software as I can afford legal, especially if I'm making money with it, but there are a few cases where it just isn't possible in this country. The fact that you are not allowed to sell the software when you are done with it, or if it doesn't meet your requirements, doesn't make it any easier. I don't like piracy, and try to discourage it wherever I can, but sometimes there isn't any other way to get where you need to go.
I think I should stop now... ;)

Jos Metadi

04-05-2002, 02:29 AM

I have to come down on the side of the pirating, even for educational purposes, is bad.

The reason is that by pirating the software, you are circumventing the natural protection of a capitalistic economy.

If you want a company to lower their prices, the consumers must lower the demand by refusing to purchase or use the product so that it's market share drops. By using the software illegally, you may not be giving them money directly, but you are contributing to their marketshare which enables them to keep their prices up.

The best thing you can do is to use a cheaper product you can afford shifting marketshare to it so that the more expensive company has no choice but to lower prices or go out of business.

Personally, I've learned my (limited) skills using basic freeware such as sPatch and now I will be trying out the legally free personal learning edition of Maya.

JoS

zkydz

04-05-2002, 05:33 AM

Errrr, that's kinda the points being raised. SPatch would never give you the skills needed to get a job. You have the basic frame work for spline based patch modeling, but, do you know where and what the nurbs functions for other forms of modeling are? If it weren't for the MAYA PLE, where would you be getting those skills?

zkydz

Jos Metadi

04-05-2002, 10:18 AM

With Blender, or OpenFX or Nurbana or Hexagreat or....

cwispy

04-05-2002, 12:58 PM

if ya wanna learn 3DS Max, just download G-Max for free from discreet. =)

zkydz

04-05-2002, 05:19 PM

Ok, you have MAYA PLE.....are you really trying to tell me that the controls, menu selections and all of that are and pipeline workflow are the same in Blender, or OpenFX or Nurbana or Hexagreat? If that were the case then all potential employers would be requesting 3yrs general experience and nothing specific.

zkydz

epatnor

04-29-2002, 05:11 PM

*BUMP* :)

FortUno

04-30-2002, 11:33 PM

I am now using a legit, educational copy of 3DSMAX 4. I began, by getting a cracked copy of MAX 2, back in the day. I also bought one of those $50 books to learn it.. When I hit high school, and had the money (and computer to handle it), I got an educational copy of MAX 3, then upgraded to MAX 4 when it came out.

I definitely agree that piracy is bad, but it was the only way that I could begin to learn a decent program. Once I got the resources, I did get a real copy even though I am still learning it, and well, still am not very good yet... (and that darn having to authorize it every time something weird happens to my computer is getting VERY annoying... Last time I called to get an auth. code, the person told me I should call tech support for my computer if I keep having problems, etc. I then informed them that I build my own computers, and the only problems I ever encounter are problems that I caused by tweaking things, and I am always able to fix those problems, except I occasionally need a new authorization code, and that is solely a problem that THEIR software has.)

googlo

05-18-2002, 06:13 AM

You can't compare a product like a sports car to software for this kind of arguement, that's rediculous.

If the people against pirated software were really believing the type of morallity they are preaching, the world would never progress. The infrastructure that modern societies now enjoy have been built on the back of breaking rules and going against law and current morality of the time.

I'm not saying anarchy is the answer, which is the result of total freedom, but at the same time, arguing against piracy in such purist terms is just as bad and illogical.

Humanism is amoral, there will never be a direct answer for any of this locial reasoning going because it is by it's nature arbitrary. I think the fact that you can argue both sides 'till you are blue in the face is direct evidence of that.

Just because something is illegal doesn't make it immoral and just because something is legal doesn't make it moral.

What people-against-piracy and similar juants don't realize and seem to forget is that in all this structure for modern society, the human side is often forgotten. Life doesn't follow the rules we set up, we can try as hard as we can to lot peoplt into those rules, but the dynamics of life prohibit that from every being perfect so there will always be justification at some point for both sides in this kind of arguement.:wip:

amusedtoe

05-25-2002, 01:23 AM

ok i dont condone piracy by any means but when u have these companies with software priced so high and out of the range of most hobbyists and people who jus want to learn it im sorry but what do they expect to happen? fine they have to charge a certain amount to make profit and stay and buisness but if they were more reasonable they would probably earn more customers between the people with illegal copies who would buy it and the people who it was jus outta their range before.yes the student liscenses help and its a start and yes piracys always going to be around but i think that the companies need to be a little more customer oriented with their pricing first
-peace

wedge

05-27-2002, 05:35 AM

I think the Maya way is the good one since they offer Maya for free if you're using it as a hobby and not to make profits.

That quote is on page two of this thread...

Maya: PLE is free, yes... but every image is randomly watermarked... there are a few other issues with it. Maya: Complete can be found for $495 with a student discount, and Maya: Unlimited can be found for around $700 with the same discount.

googlo

05-28-2002, 01:39 AM

"Maya: Complete can be found for $495 with a student discount, and Maya: Unlimited can be found for around $700 with the same discount"

The problem is if they can trust a student to use their software at such a reduced cost, then why not the general public who are interested in learning it as well?

All of the big 3d software companies are making huge mistake with all of this. If they just made the general public sign the same contract that students have to promising they won't use the software for profit or commercial gain, what is the big deal then? It's not like students are going to be more trustworth than a non-student.

And second, putting a watermark on the software will not stop people who use the software for gain illegally. Maya's watemark on the student verison is horrible. it totally ruins the experience. I can't work in Maya for long without getting frustrated with that damn watermark everywhere, it honestly gets in the way and is very annoying. It's like a movie house allowing a viewing of a movie for free, only static is generate in the imagery, as ot make the quality so bad, no one woould want to pirate it..

The software companies are just promoting piracy and loosing a huge profit they could be making. All they have to do is make the sudent pricing available to everyone who wants to learn it, in school or not. There is no difference or excuse. They are loosing a huge profit by not making student pricing available to everyone who is just interested in their software for educaitonal or hobby use.. I guess they like hobbyist using pirated software better as opposed to all the hobbyist who WOULD pay 600 dollars for an educational license..

Titan

05-28-2002, 06:37 AM

I believe that anyone who actually works in the industry or takes the time to learn an app as to use it for profit will eventually be confronted with the prospect of"doing the right thing"..

What I mean is...if you learn on a pirated app and REALLY REALLY learn..to the point where you CAN sell the content for profit..there will come a time when you will be forced to "GET LEGAL."

I think most pro dev houses know this, and so do most freelancers, like myself....but it is much harder for the freelancer to get legal than a dev house. AS a Freelancer , my funds for software and hardware updates are very limited..

Also add to it the fact that everytime Discreet comes out with an upgrade...its a few grand just to get the latest version....not easily accessible for the home user or freelancer.....hard for most dev houses to do, since the restrictions on the license require a seperate license for each workstation. I know several studios that activly run multiple copies of max and other programs from the same license, simply because its too expensive to buy a copy for each workstation.

Thus leading to more pirated copies......
and as far as students go....well its a given that they are gonna use pirated versions..I didnt know a single person that didnt have an illegal version of something on their system...but seriously, if you cant afford to buy it, how do you expect to pass your classes...you have to practice on your own time....and using the schools resources are inconvenient to say the least. The only obvious answer..find an illegal copy.

Fnkymnky

05-28-2002, 05:41 PM

Excellent topic! Quite the interesting discussion, I must say.

My thoughts: I started out about a year ago, learning on an illegal copy of max 4. I've since spent a few hundred dollars on learning materials, and paid the full $800 for Discreet/Nvidia/Elsa's "Quadro DCC" bundle. Four month licenses were included for the packaged versions of max, reactor, and character studio.

But somebody screwed up. Something went wrong over at Autodesk, and I got an "indefinite" license for max. I could, technically, use it for as long as I wanted; full copy of the software for $800.

I don't feel good about that, mind you; I've pointed it out to the Discreet people, who told me, essentially, "Looks like something went wrong in the authorization process. Try and get a legal copy when you can." That was it.

Now, I've got a rather lucrative job as a plumber's apprentice in my father's business (I'm only eighteen, for the record). Still living with my parents, and not in college, I have a certain degree of financial flexibility.

The "company" I "own" (not registered, not paying taxes, not making money) is working on a movie at the moment; quite a few effects shots involved. We'll be putting them out there for free, because, quite frankly, I don't think they'll be worth paying for. I'm still gonna get myself legal, commercial copies of max and combustion to use on the project, though.

I'm not very good as an artist yet. Not horrible, I suppose, but no one's gonna want to pay me for what I do. When I'm good enough, I'll be able to use that software.

If you're learning, or doing this as a hobby, I see no problem with illegal copies. Just make sure to check for viruses. :p

If you have plans to profit from these things, buy them. I know they're expensive, but still...

Joel Hooks

05-28-2002, 09:55 PM

Originally posted by Titan

Also add to it the fact that everytime Discreet comes out with an upgrade...its a few grand just to get the latest version....not easily accessible for the home user or freelancer.....hard for most dev houses to do, since the restrictions on the license require a seperate license for each workstation. I know several studios that activly run multiple copies of max and other programs from the same license, simply because its too expensive to buy a copy for each workstation.

That's really not true. The upgrades are hardle "thousands of dollars", and if you are on the reasonable yearly maintenance thing they are priced pretty well (considering their 18 month upgrade cycle)

Originally posted by Titan
but seriously, if you cant afford to buy it, how do you expect to pass your classes...you have to practice on your own time....and using the schools resources are inconvenient to say the least. The only obvious answer..find an illegal copy.

Well, just to argue the point, most (all) software generally has a student pricerange that is WAY cheaper than retail versions. It would be an expense that should be planned for before even starting a graphics program. Though I know it rarely works out this way in the real world, but technically speaking :)

Titan

05-29-2002, 04:29 AM

hey man............just speaking from my experience and my point of view......

When I began art school.....I had NO idea that animation software was THAT expensive..

to that point , the only 3d software I had used was raydream, and early versions of truespace...

And WHY should software be THAT expensive...because someone says so?

what the hell for, I'm a graphics and 3D programmer as well..i just cant see writing a software app and charging people 8 to 10 grand or more, just cause I say so...

One of my professors once told me that software was priced that high to seperate the home users from the professional users and to maintain an exclusive clientelle....not sure how much validity there is in that...but its plausible..

rAd

07-15-2002, 04:15 PM

I would be running into a few hundred k if I was to buy all of the software I use but I do buy a lot. I usually try out free versions untill I can afford to buy it which I do eventually if I like it. But it is seriously expensive and over here - down-under it's 3 times the price. The thing is, i really want to buy it but with a bank account with 'gravity' for its nick name then its just impossible. i can't live without using my puter and if i leave the house for a few hours then I start to crave to fire up max or photoshop. I also refer a lot of people, usually companies to use the software and recently just aranged for a new distributor for a major software company and that deal will be worth a lot of return for the company.

Yet after working in the dot-com boom as a web developer & recently a designer my income is mini - if at all - since the over crowded market surge recently. With no marketing skills and a life that is always consisted of coffee & graphics, its meant that I'm now seriously thinking about becoming a full time artist (other-wise known as social reject for creative pepole). This tag is especially suited after several headaches when reaching the pinaccle of my career which include spilling Coffee all over the floor at my new & last job at a big media company. Now I read mad magazines when I want to take a different angle and i'm saving up for more apps too, i'm thinking about mowing lawns now for a side income and just to think I have many skill people will spend the next 10 years aquiring but I could never dare work in a real job these days. working in the real world has always meant top work for the client and big-time cash for me, heck i used to make more in an hour than i make in a week now. yes, the only things i can really afford now are books for the software so at least I can contribute some how. Maybe an idea would be for these companies is to have online payment systems for International customers to direct credit $10 a week for the rest of our lives or untill we can't see or pick up a mouse. This would enable people who would never dare ask their bank for a credit card to pay for something somehow online. I could aford $10 a week but I can't afford $10,000 anymore , at least that is what it costs down-under for many mid-range software.

i just want to pay but i can't so in the mean-time im gonna create.

rAd

trybul

07-15-2002, 07:42 PM

first let me say that i am using an educational version of max...and started out by purchasing a used copy of 3ds 4 form an auction....

I always wanted to do 3d.... since i was a young'en...

and i must admit that i was tempted to use "hot" copies.... but never did...

I must admit that this thread has reafirmed the belief that people are just plain selfish and just plain ignorant....if a situation does not fit thier belief they justifie thier actions to make it right...

let us ask the very basic question " is it right to steal?"
- i imagine that every one would agree that it is wrong, especialy if it was their stuff that was getting ripped off. Even as artist we condem people who pass of others work as thier own..... so why is it o.k with software.....

You could use the old delema of....but if you had to feed a starving family and stole bread is that wrong? but there is a fundamental difference between the need for food and the want of useing software that you can not afford.

And that is the problem.... people are stealing just because it is something they want, and not somehing they need to live.

we all have choices, and the choice to steal, especialy something that is a blatant want is wrong. The software is a tool, just as the computer is a tool. you would not ever advocate stealing a computer to learn on....and say that when i earn money off it i will pay for it....or would you?

perhaps people need to be alittle more realistic in what they want to do... and what they can do...or buy what you can afford.

and just to let you know i had to work and save for a year and a bit just ot afford my copy of max... so i am not rich, or suffer for middle class syndrom, but i do suffer form integraty and values!

trybul

Ali

07-15-2002, 07:56 PM

in most eastern countries, companies like A|W,discreet,NEWtek,etc has no market.government of these countries allow software piracy freely. people buy software like maya,max,lw like vegetables from a food shop. main reason is because of lot of poverty. in most eastern poor countries an average sellary of a normal person is 5000(curr.)

and 5000(curr.) = 70$ usa

in this they can only buy legal copy of HASH after lot of months.they can eat or do cg?

i really did not find that with maya PLE, lightwave and soft demo, you can learn cg they all include lots of watermarks, polygons skiping, save limit,etc.

yes buy a gmax available game and get gmax it has limit for advance rendring and animation. but its better than watermarks.

dvornik

07-15-2002, 08:12 PM

I don't know if this issue has been discussed here but I've met many legitimate max owners who routinely use the xforce keygen. Why? Because of that wonderful licensing system that max has.

googlo

07-15-2002, 09:11 PM

if a situation does not fit thier belief they justifie thier actions to make it right...

Hmm, kind of how the United States came to be. (any other country for that matter really). At one point people have just decided that the rules aren't good enough or don't treat the indivudal fairly, so they broke them. All kinds of influential peope in science, mathematics, literature, philosophy, government that have been respected and held in high regard did things at times that were illegal or considered immoral, not because they were bad people, but just because the rules of society were either unfair to the individual despite the greater good it did for the whole, or just because they didn't agree with the standards at the time. My point is, it's pointless to implicate some kind of absolute morallity of right or wrong regarding this issue because if people had always followed those same kind of standards, we wouldn't have software companies to make such cool things like 3DS Max.

trybul

07-15-2002, 11:46 PM

googlo,

You are right in the fact that alot of people have been persecuted, even killed for goining beyond the norm of society....look at Socrates...

But that does not mean that some things are not just plain wrong. We would accept this, as presented by Kant... but let us not get to involved in a philisophical debate here......

stealing in my opinion.....especially for a want...is wrong and cannot be defended or justified. I would like to cry "opression" and " oh cruel world" when i don't get what i want...but that does not give me the right to steal something, and then try and make amends to society by justifing it with a statement as droll as " when i make money with it i will by it...but untill then i will keep stealing."

trybul

P.S. sorry for my poor spelling.....

googlo

07-16-2002, 12:12 AM

trybul,

The problem is that most people who are using the warez aren't even doing it for personal gain as in using it to profit in some commercial way, they just want to learn it, then when they can afford it, buy it and use it for personal gain.. Most of the people in here have stated that time and time again, and practiced it. These people would not have bought the software or even gotten involved with a company that buys the software for them to then use had it not been available in a cracked version, they simply would just not have access to it be it because they simiply couldn't afford it or afford to go to school. So in the long run, it actually BENEFITS the companies that produce these programs. That's all I'm saying. I don't think studios should use pirated software and then turn around and make profit off of it, that's different. Most people in here are arguing the same. And you can't discuss this without getting philosophical, everything is, even the mundane everyday stuff it's just people get so used to the 'norm' they take the depth of it for granted, until it's taken away or exaggerated. After all, a lot of people in here are complaining about what is 'right' and 'wrong' you almost can't discuss something like that without digging into philosophy and the meaning of things.

Aaron Moore

07-16-2002, 01:10 AM

Originally posted by dvornik
I don't know if this issue has been discussed here but I've met many legitimate max owners who routinely use the xforce keygen. Why? Because of that wonderful licensing system that max has.

Ditto! Same here... I think when I first got 1.2 I was so excited... turns out their offices are closed... so had to wait over the weekend to get auth codes... which i recall didn't work... well i suffered though 2.0 and 2.5.... by r3, i found a keygen and there was no going back :)

Heck, why make it difficult for the ppl who pay money upfront?

psil

07-16-2002, 08:47 AM

I suspect that if 'Joe Average' had to pay for all the software on his computer, he wouldn't bother buying the computer in the first place - which would pretty much pull the economic rug from under the IT revolution of the last 15 years.

About the racing car analogy...imagine test driving a Ferrari with that Alias Wavefront watermark all over the windscreen...

Dominique

08-05-2002, 04:43 PM

OK for MAX, I have my own liscense and one of Aura as well, got it on EBay for a 100$,
but who can afford Photoshop, Combustion or After, a 3D package, several plugs, Flash, ACDSee and WINDOWS (yes),

OK, even if you can, next year is upgrade year !!!!
and a lot of European companies can't follow,
Plugins are the first ones that aren't paid, follwed by installing those 2 Photoshops on every of the 25 machines, etc...,

My car has electric windows, but I don't need to upgrade them each year,

bums and kisses
:bounce: :bounce:

swampthing

08-05-2002, 05:41 PM

ndat

08-05-2002, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by LFShade
And if you think the analogy is flawed because you're not stealing software from any particular individual such as you would be doing with the car, then I guess I'd have to agree in part: instead of an individual, you are affecting ALL purchasers of the product with increased costs! In that way it is perhaps worse than stealing the car.

Good point!!! I think I'll go out get me a nicer car :D

LFShade

08-05-2002, 11:52 PM

Wow, that's quite a callback:)

You heard it here first, folks -- piracy is wrong, but I encourage each and every one of you to go out and steal a car:thumbsup:

googlo

08-06-2002, 12:18 AM

I think people using the car analogy aren't thinking, just reacting emotionally. It's comparable to saying that someone who exceeds a speed limit (breaking the law) is on equal moral ground for trangressing the law as someone who has murdered someone.

LFShade

08-06-2002, 12:26 AM

googlo

08-06-2002, 01:06 AM

Well, from a legal standpoint, stealing software to the tune of thousands of dollars is almost directly equivalent to stealing a car. So it's not really all that much of a stretch if you think about it.

What are you comparing here the morallity behind law or money equivalency? Because they are two different issues.

Can you tell me LFShade what is wrong with someone useing 3DS Max if they aren't going to use it for commercial gain if they would never had bought anyway? In what way is it hurting Discreet? They obviously don't mind someone using GMax for free, so what is the difference if someone uses the full functioning verison of the software with the same use and intent in mind as the free version(besdies a technicallity)?

What is the difference of someone uses Maya complete instead of MayaPLE if the way it is used is exactly the same?

There is none..

Are you also saying that a kid who downloads the software for personal study should be prosecuted just the same as a studio who has made thousands off of pirated software?

This is what I don't get, it's like people are getting blinded by just the written words of law and not looking at anything else. This to me is more scary than the hype of how criminal people are if they use pirated software

LFShade

08-06-2002, 02:33 AM

Am I comparing moral or financial value? Hmmm...both. And this is based on the premise that to steal an item of any monetary value is still morally wrong. Would you have me believe that to steal an item should be acceptable behavior, so long as you don't make any money in so doing? And that if you only follow the rules you agree with, your morals may remain perfectly intact? That, to me, is scary!

Based on some of the ideas you present in this last post, perhaps the car theft analogy is not, in fact, the best I can offer. You ask what the difference is between using Maya PLE versus using a cracked Maya complete, for instance. The basis of your argument is that they essentially are the same except for one being free and the other bearing a cost, so therefore Alias really doesn't lose anything if you're using either for free. I can offer a more apropos analogy, then.

I live in a city with a decent public transportation system. Bus and rail fares are not through the roof, but can run upwards of $100/month for the steady commuter. There exists, in a range of blocks in the central part of the city, a "free zone" where riders can hop on and off all they like without paying, but any ride that begins or ends outside of this zone bears a charge. On the rail, which is less closely monitored than the bus, it is possible to hop aboard at any stop along the route without purchasing or possessing a ticket; it is left a matter of good faith and the occasional ticket-check that passengers will comply with the fare rules outside the free zone.

Given this scenario, would you say that it is morally acceptable to ride the rail from one side of town clear to the other, through full-fare zones, without having bought a ticket or pass? After all, the train does the same thing in the free zone as it does in the fare zones! So what's the difference? Well, the difference is that those fares are required for the city to recoup, at least in part, the cost to run the system. People paying the fares help to keep the prices for all riders from increasing more than absolutely necessary, and it helps the trains to stay modern and the employees of the public transit system to be paid.

Same thing in software: honest customers, paying for the product, help to keep the cost as low as possible for other patrons, as well as supplement the cost of development and the salaries of the development teamp, marketers, and other employees. When you take the "free ride in the fare zone" by using a cracked version of the software, you're costing more people more money than you might imagine!

Now, I am (hopefully) intelligent enough to know that this is not a perfect, 100 percent accurate analogy; it comes about as close as I can and still be making an analogy. I understand that a bus or train rider creates a wear and tear burden that does not apply in software development. But some of the more salient points of the analogy remain to answer back to your argument, and I am curious to know how you would answer.

Then again, it's hard to change anyone's mind, so I expect you'll not budge from your viewpoint any more than anyone else in this thread. I just hope it makes you think a little.

ndat

08-06-2002, 02:39 AM

This argument is too hard to replly to both sides bring up good points. But the fact is the software companies seem to be getting along fine and I suggest not bringing this up untill they are not.

Jake McD

08-06-2002, 02:41 AM

I don't have it!:shrug:

googlo

08-06-2002, 03:07 AM

Now, I am (hopefully) intelligent enough to know that this is not a perfect, 100 percent accurate analogy; it comes about as close as I can and still be making an analogy. I understand that a bus or train rider creates a wear and tear burden that does not apply in software development. But some of the more salient points of the analogy remain to answer back to your argument, and I am curious to know how you would answer.

That's my point, there is no 'cost' or 'wear and tear' to the software company in ANY form. I'm against people who use pirated software for commercial use like in studios or whatever, but I'm not against people who use pirated software like Max or Maya when it's being used in a manner no different than the conditions set for the watermarked versions that HAVE released for FREE. Where is the harm being done there? Absolutely none at all. And that has been my point about all of this. There is no 'loss' that runs up the chain to the company to get passed down to the end user who purchases the software for commercial use. Do you see what I mean now?

I've written this before in the past. If all these big CG software companies would just release their software for like 300 dollars or soemthing for those who would like to learn it or use it as a hobby and be bound to the same terms and conditions as those who GET that kind of deal for being formal students in school, they would be making even more money and curbing the use of pirated software at the same time, but for some reason they don't.:shrug:

LFShade

08-06-2002, 05:28 AM

If all these big CG software companies would just release their software for like 300 dollars or soemthing for those who would like to learn it or use it as a hobby and be bound to the same terms and conditions as those who GET that kind of deal for being formal students in school, they would be making even more money and curbing the use of pirated software at the same time...
Now there's a statement I can completely stand behind! Were these companies to actually decide to make it okay for people to use their software free or nearly free, then there would certainly be no harm done when individuals choose to take them up on it. It comes down to the difference between the way things are, and the way things could be given different circumstances. Right now, the circumstance is that these software companies aren't giving away or cheaply selling off full licenses to hobbyists, so as a hobbyist you must simply deal with that. The piracy alternative is, as I have stated, against the law. It's really pretty cut-and-dry as I see it.

insect666

08-06-2002, 08:31 PM

Originally posted by googlo

That's my point, there is no 'cost' or 'wear and tear' to the software company in ANY form.

Now that's a statement! A good one! :applause:

Acctually I think that CG companies are trying to count wastage... However they're just counting money that the person who used illegal software "would-have-payed"! But have in mind - usually people use illegal software just cause they CAN'T BUY it (I mean "CAN'T AFFORD it")... So what's the difference for the company if a person uses illegal software or doesn't use any of the two?.. The company doesn't get money in both cases.

googlo

08-06-2002, 08:57 PM

So what's the difference for the company if a person uses illegal software or doesn't use any of the two?.. The company doesn't get money in both cases.

The company wouldn't be getting any money anyway if the person was or was not using the pirated software. I think people here are getting confused with this arguement between people who use pirated software for study (like the free version they release - which people here seem to be ignoring that point..) and those who use it for commercial gain. There's a big difference between the two

Dominique

08-06-2002, 08:58 PM

Downloaded my Ford-Taurus yesterday on Kazaa:bounce::bounce:

googlo

08-06-2002, 09:03 PM

I got my BMW 'Experience' basic model yesterday!...

insect666

08-06-2002, 09:19 PM

oh great... I've got about 10 viruses with a house model though Kazaa. The usual .max.bat trick.
Anyways, there will always be those who use illegal software.
Take a look at the statistics above... Oh sorry I forgot - "there are: Lies, Big Lies and statistics." :shrug:

Dominique

08-06-2002, 09:24 PM

air-conditioning is a Cebas-plug, got it, but without the manual, ..., I'm freezing

insect666

08-06-2002, 09:46 PM

Calm down... Just don't use "Afterburn"!

Damn... It's getting really off topic.

Dominique

08-06-2002, 09:57 PM

I did, on the Corto Maltèse movie, and without the manual, had a hard time,

Bought my Max-liscense a month ago, registered but stilll working with the crack, C-DIlla slows me down

and makes me feel a bit like Bonny&Clyde:bounce: :bounce:

insect666

08-06-2002, 10:08 PM

Geez, What a bad-boy!..

I guess that's enough for today... CGtalk might have some troubles cause of this. We don't want that... Do we? :rolleyes:

The conclusion: "Use illegal software if you must, but keep your mouth shut".

Lizard Head

08-07-2002, 10:30 PM

Absolute Truths are (imho) are ones that are accepted universerally by everyone regardles of borders and boundries, an example is murder, I cant think of any nation that allows muder to go unpunished,,,but these absolutes are defined by the first order of religion, and in the second order of govts. In the third wave of business absolutes do not exsist except for self preservation. the fact is that piracy is mainstream. we know it they know it. Thier cash is generated through business and acedemic Lic. there is no benifit going after the lone user making levels for his favorite game. and they do know that these users will someday go to school,, they will demand the packages that they know how to use, and that will carry over and into the business place. they know it,, they know it!! so the head looks the other way. I learned on 3dsr4 for DOS way back when, that has carried over into my career, because of my uses in my home,when it was time to make a choice, my employer came to me, that recommendation of mine turned into 4 seats of MAX and 4 seats of CS plus allll the little plugins being bought leaglly. Now I go to a tech Inst. and because of my knowledge I have turned fellow students with no exposure to 3D Software onto MAX and Autocad,, again Discreet wins because of my recomendations based on the fact that once a long time ago someone placed a copy of an old DOS 3d package in my hands. and thats an absolute truth.

Dominique

08-08-2002, 06:28 AM

5 years ago, we had cartoon and cloth-reyes for Max2 & 2.5,
and they weren't available for Max3 or 4, dumping every client,
wasn't funny, (cloth_reyes was wonderfull):thumbsdow

sirius

08-08-2002, 01:14 PM

Dont know for max, or maya, but adobe photoshop has a incredibly small developers group, compared to its price and world-wide distribution of the program. the sales departments exceeds by far the developing part.
But how can it be, that a company selling zillions of copies of a program, will not afford a huge development department. Why is it that every upgrade is just a small advancement, and lots of bugs stay there? I am also observing that while they develop lots of easy bells and whistles (for photoshop), essential image manipulation core features are left to the future...like full 16 bit layers....

How much do shareholders take? Are you willing to pay the shareholders who want a minimum of 20% or more a year?
I am willing to pay for a honest company, trying to make quality products and investing in the future. I am not willing to pay because some people dream of inmense revenues, or because the company wants to spend their money to a vast amount of marketing of "bells and whistles".
To get back to the car-comparison: would you buy a car which drives upside down after x turns? Or only enters in the fourth gear if i also turn down my window and open the right rear door with my left hand, Or wich doesnt drive at all because some part still hasnt left the development dep?
With no garantee? With a prohibition to sell it? And which costs 10 to 20 times the average program? well that is max.

you will say: just buy another product. but there is no such thing as a really free market. especially in an area whith so few software producing companies as in 3d animation. consistency, reliability and quality should be improved. But Software companies dont maintain the same standards as those producing cars. (and also car companies still dont produce Hydrogen motors (which are a lot cleaner) while the technique already exists for more than 20 years......

sirius

Dominique

08-08-2002, 02:10 PM

Markets are full, there just no invention anymore that has a big visual impact, ..., 5, 10 years ago, in the Theatre(Sigg), you saw stuff that you thought was impossible just the day before,..., they got it all now, Radiosity, Cloths, Hair, Fluids ..., and 'perfect enough' to stop the evolution (OhGod, when again did I saw MetaBalls for the first time!!!)
Next, we do things faster and faster, machines also, the industry needs lesser people and machines, softs becomes easier, more qualified people on the market, don't forget Eastern Production Firms, they are really very cheap (watch Out China),
Within 5 years the reason to upgrade will be Windows XXXP, not the new designed interface or the ability to calculate 4.500.000.000 polygons (this is funny what's happening with FRenderer and Arnold), ...,
So where's the Fun???
Here on the board I had lots of Laughs,
and each time animating, i just love it, ..., My 7-year old Boy starts animating as well, got him a digital camera, we're doing clay-mations, add laserbeams with Aura and a 3D spaceship and put them on tape so he can show them to his friends, and get a lot of girlFiends later (yep Freud, here's the main reason why I'm animating 7 little characters for the moment)

There's a market for children overhere, instead of all those stupid ABCD children-Laptops, get them some real metaphysical creation tools

edaddy

03-17-2003, 04:11 PM

^ conversations on illegal/legal programs are always funny:thumbsup:

BTY

03-17-2003, 04:41 PM

If that were true I'd buy it soon, being a student. Educationally this is a reality but when reading the fine print, you can clearly see that it is subsciption based. Meaning that you must pay $695 for a yearly subscription.

Is-boset

03-17-2003, 06:22 PM

how much it is a license of 3DMax?

BTY

03-17-2003, 06:24 PM

$450 from studica.com (http://www.studica.com)

loqutos

03-17-2003, 06:29 PM

Come on, let's get real here. I think all you need do is check the forum section for Lightwave , Max or whatever other software...you can clearly see from a lot of the questions that are asked that the person asking the question is obviously using a cracked version...how? A lot of the time, the questions asked could be answered in 5 seconds..IF...the user asking the question had a MANUAL.
I am a registered user of both Lightwave and Max. I have put out a ton of money for software, plugs and other programs I use to do my work. I really feel like anyone who uses cracked or illegal software is a thief...I don't know any politically correct words I would rather use...I think if you are a thief, embrace the title!
Don't get me wrong...I believe everyone who has a computer, at one time or another has used a cracked version of something...the difference with an honest person and a software thief is...after using a cracked version for a short time, if you like the software and determine it's usefullness, an honest person would find a way to buy it.

my opinion
Loqutos

Is-boset

03-17-2003, 06:30 PM

Thanks! :thumbsup:

klschuff

03-17-2003, 06:54 PM

I bought Max 4 two years ago, the light blue manuals make an excellent addition to my bookshelf!! :)

Kurt

Signal2Noise

03-17-2003, 09:15 PM

The politically correct term for a thief/warez person would be:

Software Liberator :p

I myself do not understand how anyone can live & cope with cracked versions of software. They tend to be as buggy as hell and cause more trouble than it's worth (even if it is 'free'). Not having manuals and, in some cases, the help files & tutorials really suck, imo.

I think that saving up the coin for a good CG app is well worth it. And usually once the initial outset of money is paid the upgrade prices and such are fairly reasonable and save headaches in the end.

I hate not having boxed sets of software with all manuals and reference materials. This goes the same for PC games and music CDs.

SUPPORT THE SOFTWARE DEVELOPERS AND USER COMMUNITIES- BUY THE STUFF!!:buttrock:

loqutos

03-17-2003, 09:45 PM

I have made this suggestion in the past on other forums and I will make it here as well.
What everyone should do when a person asks a dumb question that can easily be answered by cracking the manual....just ignore the post or tell the person to look in their manual...I usually give the page number in the manual where the answer can be found, that usually tends to piss the illegal software owner off and if enough people do this to these sleazy, cheap warez users...they will become disenchanted with the lack of help they can find and will force them to either learn the software on their own or buy the real deal and get access to manuals, tutorials within the package and of course help from others in the legitimate user communities all over the net.

If legitimate users give help and aid to illegal users, everyone loses in that scenario. Programmers who spend many man years developing software make their money from the purchases of the software they work so hard to develop. Think of them, not the sleazy illegal users who steal software.

Loqutos

DrakeX

03-17-2003, 11:45 PM

i have a copy that came from my dad's work. however i (1) am pretty bad at modelling and (2) am not stupid enough to use an illegal copy for commercial products :) so i'm kinda safe there. i guess. i hope.

i love MAX tho :) of all the modellers i suck at, i suck at it the least. i know so many people who hate it for its interface... i love the interface, i don't know how else i'd model!!

unfortunately by the time i'm old enough to have enough money to buy a copy i doubt it'll even be around anymore, with my luck lol. and i WILL buy MAX when i can! oh yes, i will! cause it's awesome :) and i don't feel like ripping off the creators for making such a great prog. :wavey:

Tex3D

03-18-2003, 01:59 AM

I started with a cracked copy of R2 and did absolutely NOTHING with it. I saved and saved and FINALLY bought a full box of R3 and I have never been prouder. Seriously, one of the best days of my life was when the Post came in and my box was waiting for me.

I still stare at that Black box and marvel. I am truly legit

-Dave:buttrock:

PS. Now that I paid for it I am a 1000 times more productive.

loqutos

03-18-2003, 02:17 AM

There really is no better feeling than being able to pick up the telephone and call the help center at Discreet or Newtek and ask for tech support knowing that if they ask for your serial number, you can rattle it off with complete knowledge that it is completely legit.

Loqutos

makkbru

03-18-2003, 07:45 AM

i dont think discreet loos a penny because of piracy. piracy is good for their buisness, and this is why:

the program is too expensive for a normal person, and noone would ever buy it except cooperations,(and maybe some crazy people-sorry loqutos and Tex3D). very few would buy it anyway, and discreet cant seriously expect any income from this...

people who use their "stolen" program comes to like it and if their gona start in the 3d-buisness they would naturally use that program, which they would have to buy. (the price of max is nothing for a company,(not compared to the consequenses if somone found out they used stolen programs anyway).

people who use max talk about it. and gossip is the best commersial...

signal to Noise:
you dont crack the program, you crack the license, so no problem there.... (max is full of bugs anyway....)

makkbru

03-18-2003, 07:57 AM

off course if you can afford it, buy it. but if you cant afford it you can just as well copy it, cause discreet wont get no mony from you anyway....

Gonzo The Great

03-18-2003, 09:42 AM

I am not bragging about this so don't jump down my neck... I'm only giving my info.

I would have easily clocked in the millions of dollars of illegal software in my life-time beginning with my first computer - an Amiga 500. (I thought for about a year and a half, copying friends progs was the only way you got things.)

I have never made a cent from any of the programs. However, I began burning copies of animation software (Softimage 3D, Softimage Toonz) for friends to continue working on their projects at home instead of always using the pre-booked slower computers at Univeristy. These machines had more licensing problems than the Warez copies.

Today I downloaded Combustion 2 and right now I getting FinalRender.

Regarding bad copies.... I guess I'm just lucky. They work and I get all the help files. Speaking of:

I USE IT TO LEARN.... you should see my Resume. I am very employable in the 3D VFX and Animation Field. But I will NOT invest because I don't have a cent in the bank, and because I am only doing CG Animation now because my heart lays in TRADITIONAL ANIMATION. That is my strength. CGTALK... I only really come here to see the WIP and Galleries.

------

Gonzo The Great

03-18-2003, 09:50 AM

P.S. If I had a spare AU$4000 (US$2300) I WOULD BUY the full collection of the GNOMON Maya Learning DVDs. And that isn't even with a student discount.

On that point - that guy selling the video tuts is only hurting himself by not putting Student Discounts out.

He would get enough business for a year just trying to keep up with demands from only the people at CGTALK.

BTY

03-18-2003, 01:30 PM

Nothing anyone says can justify or rationalize the use of warez.

When you look at 3ds max 5 at an MSRP of $3495 US, you don't think: "Wow that's alot of money. I'd better save till it hurts so I can use it. It's the only way." You think: "Wow that's alot of money. I better go out and do whatever I can to get it, legit or not."

When "cracking" a piece of software your not hurting the developers of the highend software such as Discreet, as much as you hurt the companies like Hash and Caligari. They depend greatly upon people who want highend features but don't have highend cash.

Who knows. With your support these companies could have become highend and maintained their low priced software. Adding more features and offering better support.

All in all its better to realize the truth while you can. If you can't afford something, you don't steal it. You look for a cheaper solution, get a short term/long term paying job, or save till it hurts.

Or you could purchase an educational version (if possible). If not look for studios that use Maya/3ds max and send them your resume` that show quality work done by the best software you could afford and inform them that you will be willing to learn the package provided.

I'm seeing alot of people with the highend software, but nobody using it. It doesn't matter what software package you use. It's the artist's job to use it to its limits. In short just buy the best 3D package, 2D package, etc. you can afford, not crack. And then see what comes of it.

Tex3D

03-18-2003, 01:46 PM

I can't wait till one of you "It doesn't hurt anyone" and blah blah blah guys ends up working for a video game company as a modeller. And when that game that you worked on for SOOO long doesn't make any money and you start worrying about your jobs, and you sit there and think to yourself but why??

This is a GREAT game and has fantastic art and a totally kickass story. And you will be ABSOLUTELY right. It IS a great game.

SO GREAT that you see hundreds of people downloading copy after copy after copy while you are hunting for a new gig on Monster.com.

Then MAYBE,..Just MAYBE you will wake the **** up and realize that YOU ARE THIEVES!!!

Justify it however you like, but YOU ARE THIEVES.
-Dave

PS. Flame if you like, but I PAY FOR MINE.

Signal2Noise

03-18-2003, 02:25 PM

Originally posted by makkbru
signal to Noise:
you dont crack the program, you crack the license, so no problem there.... (max is full of bugs anyway....)

Thanks for the tip. I never knew that with max and how it gets ripped so the warez-mongers can use it. I guess we now know how you voted ;)

I don't find max that buggy. Aren't most apps somewhat buggy? Thus the call for updates/patches every so often?

Paul L. Ming

03-18-2003, 02:40 PM

Hiya.

Games are a completely different animal than a 3d package. You can't "create new stuff" with a game. You may be able to play it once or twice, and you might be able to make new 'levels' for it...but once you've played it, it most likely sits there on your shelf only to come out once or twice every year.

3D packages are not like that. You use a 3d package...you don't "play" it. You are always learning new stuff for 3d --how to do this, that or the other thing, adding a plug-in, experimenting with new animation techniques, etc. In short, once you learn a 3d package, you keep using it. You don't toss it on the shelf, say "That was fun.", and then move on to another package.

The difference is in what/how the software is used. A game, well, once it's been played, that's it. So pirating a game is a BAD thing because once it's played, there is no incentive/reason to go out and buy it. Pirating a 3d package isn't "bad", because once you start to get the hang of it, there is a reason to go out and buy it (moral comfort, support, no/less risk of getting sued, learning tools and support, etc.). There is always something new to use or learn with a 3d package. You never "finish" a 3d package.

Comparing the pirated versions of games and 3d packages is comparing apples and carrots. Two different animals.

That said, if/when I create a game and I found it being pirated (probably about 3-7 days before it is even released... :rolleyes: ) ...I would be pissed. But there isn't much I can do about that. If I created a 3d package that was very good and I saw it being pirated...I'd be thinking "Cool, people like it. My potential user base is growing. I hope those guys aren't using it to make money. If they do, I want some!". Thing is, I have hope that the 3d guys would give me money, whereas I have no hope that the game kid would give me money after he's played the game. It's a fine line, and a tricky horse, but c'est la vie.

BTY

03-18-2003, 03:09 PM

Stealing is stealing no matter what it is. The more you do it the easier it gets. It can lead to some serious trouble if you let it. I wouldn't hire anyone who uses cracked software no matter how good they were. Their mentality is based upon stealing. Who knows what they would steal if you left it in front of them! They are untrustworthy. They are in a word "dumb". Instead of finding a way to be creative with what one has, they plot to steal and create with what they have not earned.

rende

03-18-2003, 06:27 PM

Tex3D I agree, but look at what Blizzard is doing and the Counter-Strike folks : To play online you basicly have to go and buy the thing, sure a cracked one is fine for single and LAN but the fun is online.

So later on maybe we'll see that you have to be online to use MAX :/ maybe (well if you can afford max you should be able to afford dsl)

Tex3D

03-18-2003, 06:37 PM

FoulSoul,
I think that's a good thing that Game companies are doing that. I'd rather have an authentication scheme rather than disccheck any day. The point I was trying to make is not necessarily about games or 3D, It's about how people only focus on their own realities. Someone may say "well I'll never make money off of it so no harm done", but that's like stealing a car and then saying "Well I'm not gonna give anyone rides in it or be a Taxi service". Stealing is stealing is stealing.

Yes I realize that video games don't have the potential to make you money, but it's not just about profitability of the theft. If you break into someone's house and steal their TV with NO intention of selling it, but to watch it yourself it is STILL theft.

There have been other threads on here before and Im always stunned at the amount of people with their own ****ed up logic. Whatever you say in your own defense WILL not absolve you. You either pay for it, or your a thief. No bullshit "I wouldn't have bought it anyways" crap will make it better

YOU DO NOT HAVE A RIGHT TO USE STOLEN 3D SOFTWARE. end of story.

:annoyed: :annoyed: :annoyed: :annoyed: :annoyed: :annoyed:

Dark-Angel

03-18-2003, 06:51 PM

affording max and affording dsl is 2 diffrent things, not every one can afford both. what if it his corner only internet that there is is 56k, dont think he is gonna like going and blocking the line each time. oh yes he can buy a new lines for it, but still thats extra money lost that he could of used some where els.

loqutos

03-18-2003, 10:05 PM

I can't believe the shameless way people justify theft. Why can't those of you who think you are doing nothing wrong, realize you are no more than common thieves who should be spending time in jail and not trying to learn how to do 3D?
The reason the cost of software is so damned high is because idiots like those of you who brag about getting and using warez are forcing the companies who develop the software to keep raising the cost of the software to keep up with the theft going on.
If you really believe there is nothing wrong with warez, give me your real name and your address and I will give the information to the company concerned and we will see if there is something wrong with it or not.

Loqutos

Signal2Noise

03-18-2003, 10:13 PM

Thought: This will be Mr. Bush's next campaign once Iraq, Korea, terrorists, drugs, etc. are eliminated:

THE WAR ON WAREZ

Kinda catchy and it'll have me tuning into CNN on a more reqular basis. ;)

Gonzo The Great

03-18-2003, 11:38 PM

I can't believe the shameless way people justify theft.

I justify it by saying the only reason why I went out to download Maya 4.5 and XSI 3.0 is because I failed twice, each, to download their learning editions from their web-sites. It turns out I didn't have resume capabilities with their servers... but with the "other connection" I got from them at high speed and in one go. I got up to 110 MB on the softimage.com download and splatt - the end. Maya - just the same. Getright, DAP, and GoZilla didn't help.

And no - I don't have a credit card to purchase the CDs.

3dsmax doesn't even have a learning edition. I wouldn't pay for it anyway - discreet's best of ideas of how the CG process should work could be outdone by Microsoft.

Tex3D

03-18-2003, 11:46 PM

That is by FAR the LAMEST excuse for Thievery!!

I don't have a credit card !!! Holy Crap that's weak!!

Good for a laugh though!:hmm:

-Dave

PS. I used the resume on my download app for XSI 3.0 and it worked fine. :shrug:

ElysiumGX

03-19-2003, 12:07 AM

Originally posted by Gonzo The Great
3dsmax doesn't even have a learning edition.

Wrong. Perhaps you haven't heard of Gmax.

Gmax (free) is a wonderful tool for polygon modeling. Most of my recent work begins with this program. For any file conversions, Milkshape ($20) is a life saver. My best renderings are done with POVray (free). For more educational needs I have MayaPLE (free) and Blender (free). I'm also waiting for the Lightwave Discovery CD (free) to reach my mailbox soon.

My point is...stealing is wrong. My work may not be amazing...but I am the RIGHTFUL owner. It angers me to see so many artist at my level accomplish so much more than I simply because they stole a complete 3D package. You're not an artist...you're a thief. Your work does not rightully belong to you.

Getting to work on time is fine. Stealing someone's car to get to work on time....isn't.