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pluMmet
02-14-2005, 10:17 PM
If you can read Swedish: http://www.creativetools.se/nyheter/3dsmax75/3dsmax75.htm

Thanks Undersky for interprating :)

pluMmet
02-14-2005, 10:23 PM
Oh, here's Undersky's interpritation:

Well, it's out.

3ds max 7.5 is going to be released for subscription users "soon".

* Hair and fur, based on Shave and a haircut

* mental ray 3.4 with faster final gather, better raytracing and stuff like that.. Read more on mentalimages.com

* Autodesk VIZ. For the architech's (don't really know much about it.

Silence32
02-14-2005, 10:24 PM
the pdf on this side is in english :D
http://www.creativetools.se/nyheter/3dsmax75/faq.pdf

pluMmet
02-14-2005, 10:31 PM
Excallent: 8 mr Rendering CPUs. :)

leuey
02-14-2005, 10:41 PM
Funny, MR changes their licensing policy and Alias and Discreet cash in. The upgrades are startlingly similar - lots of mental ray enhancements, and not much else. $1,000 please.


-G

Silence32
02-14-2005, 10:46 PM
i think this part with audodeskt sound good :) it s cad part i think :D

this bring s 3dmax maybe back to the opiton to buy it, i changed to maya ple for testing cause max was pretty unstable and with over 6000dollar here also to expensiv.

but the flur and hair part has only the unlimitet from maya this even more expensiv then this.. im intresstet what discreet say about the details of it, and if it is more stable then the 7 of max.

and hopefuly dicreet will give me a answer of my question if its posible to buy max outside my country ... but i don t think that they will ever reply on this question :(

but but but it still sound s pretty good :))

MikeNash
02-14-2005, 11:04 PM
Its about time they release shave and haircut for max and i hope 3dsmax bugs are fixed in this version.

yog
02-14-2005, 11:35 PM
Well it's good news for me as I'm on subscription and my main use for MAX is architectural work, but I do think it's a pretty risky stratagy to make this release, with the inclussion of the much awaited hair plug-in, subscription only. This could p*** off an awful lot of people :shrug:

marktsang
02-14-2005, 11:43 PM
brilliant - at last shave and a haircut - and for free for sub users too!!

Hazdaz
02-15-2005, 12:33 AM
So is Shave and a Hair Cut supposed to be good or is it a 1/2-assed fur plug-in? (I really have never needed to model hair, but would be interested in checking out that feature).

Also what were the new features in VIZ 2006? It lists that 7.5 will have them, but doesn't list what they are.

polygun
02-15-2005, 12:34 AM
Oh man, im so glad I chose to get the subscription instead of Brazil... WHOOHOO

Silence32
02-15-2005, 12:49 AM
question, how much cheaper is max without subscription? i only see the price with

:bowdown: for any info

PyRoT
02-15-2005, 01:09 AM
Max is certanly moving ahead with this fur intergration. I always hoped this day would come and now it will. As for what they will do next.. I have no idea. I doubt they would intergrate anything like Afterburn or Aura.

Silence32
02-15-2005, 01:13 AM
or a update from nurbs, as far i know nurbs is still the same as it was in max 3

SoLiTuDe
02-15-2005, 01:15 AM
shave and a haircut is supposed to be good, although ornatrix is making it's way up the ranks lately... about time either way!... i'm surprised they're calling it 7.5, and not 8 :D www.joealter.com for those of you who want info on shave and a haircut

Mahlon
02-15-2005, 01:18 AM
The subscription is pretty much the only way to go these days. It just makes sense if you've invested @ $2000-$3000 and are planning on using max for more than 1 year. Paricularly if you've got multiple max stations in your pipe. Presumbably when you've figure out your needs, you've bought the software for the long haul. There're far too many man hours spent learning and then honing skills in max, and far too many custom resources created for it to think in the short term. Even if you're freelancing with one seat of max, that's true. I encouraged the subscription were I work once I found out they weren't on it (which was odd). Now we're all on it (I think).


Oh, yeah, on topic. I think it's great about max 7.5. No stablity problems here though. Glad about the shave and a swoosh.

Mahlon

Mahlon
02-15-2005, 01:22 AM
question, how much cheaper is max without subscription? i only see the price with

:bowdown: for any info

The price of a subscription is in addition to the price of max, so the price of max is only less expensive because of not buying the subscription. I think the subscription is running, like, $449?

(I've just actually used the word 'like' emphatically in written language. What's happening to me?)

Mahlon

Silence32
02-15-2005, 01:31 AM
here is max 7 6028US$ but thats the last one i made about this in this topic :( i think i shout make a topic in offtopic about that not speak to much in news :(


thanks for info

Edit: if its only 3ehmm 3000then i take a plane and buy it over there :eek:

Armin A
02-15-2005, 01:58 AM
Max7 is going better and better, first clothfx and now this... :bounce:

polygun
02-15-2005, 02:12 AM
I got max plus subscription for 3 even

jlelievre
02-15-2005, 03:58 AM
I'm going to wait until I see something posted by Discreet before getting too excited...there's something suspicious about this me tinks. This seems like quite a big release for Discreet not to mention anything on their site. :shrug:

Bobo
02-15-2005, 04:06 AM
I'm going to wait until I see something posted by Discreet before getting too excited...there's something suspicious about this me tinks. This seems like quite a big release for Discreet not to mention anything on their site. :shrug:

Discreet's site has been more or less offline the whole day... Plus, it is still the 14th in SF, and Montreal just hit the 15th, but I don't assume anyone is working at this time (except me ;)). The Swedish guys had to wait until the February 15th to make the announcement...
Let's wait until tomorrow.

pluMmet
02-15-2005, 09:07 AM
I can't read Swedish but I'm told these guys are Discreet Authorized Dealers. They'd have alot to loose if they were lying.

Matt-Clark
02-15-2005, 10:30 AM
All this time we've been limited to just the one fur solution (shag/hairfx) and now suddenly we've got Ornatirx and Shave on the bill too!

Reepoman
02-15-2005, 10:45 AM
or a update from nurbs, as far i know nurbs is still the same as it was in max 3

Unlike Maya, which I use at work, Disreet have realised that Nurbs are not as important since Sud-D arrived on the scene. They have concentrated on poly tools, which has made it in "my opinion" the best 3d package out there. Maya leave it to idivdual companies to develop there own in house tools becuase they can't be arsed to invest the time and money in new innovative poly modelling tools themselves.
Alias suck. :D
Just my two cents, don't get offended Maya lovers :eek:

thomaspecht
02-15-2005, 10:48 AM
never had the chance to try out shave, but from what i've read it is supposed to give more convenient hairstyling control than that fugly shag hair. sounds like a good decision to include it instead of that digimation plugin. i am looking forward to this release.

pixelmonk
02-15-2005, 12:04 PM
Unlike Maya, which I use at work, Disreet have realised that Nurbs are not as important since Sud-D arrived on the scene. They have concentrated on poly tools, which has made it in "my opinion" the best 3d package out there. Maya leave it to idivdual companies to develop there own in house tools becuase they can't be arsed to invest the time and money in new innovative poly modelling tools themselves.
Alias suck. :D
Just my two cents, don't get offended Maya lovers :eek:

offended by what? Maya's poly tools are great. Can get free scripts to help out as well.

ignorance is bliss.

Ollarin
02-15-2005, 12:19 PM
Unlike Maya, which I use at work, Disreet have realised that Nurbs are not as important since Sud-D arrived on the scene. They have concentrated on poly tools, which has made it in "my opinion" the best 3d package out there. Maya leave it to idivdual companies to develop there own in house tools becuase they can't be arsed to invest the time and money in new innovative poly modelling tools themselves.
Alias suck. :D
Just my two cents, don't get offended Maya lovers :eek:
Burn him to the stake!!!

But really, in my opinion Maya's poly tools aren't all that bad, yes, it misses a few things. though, if you use it right, you could model just as you could in any other package. Hell, i moved to Maya from Wings, i'm modeling stuff i couldn't in Wings (No idea why.). But like you said, it's personal opinion and preference on software.

Sorry for going off topic. I'll leave now. :p

Reality3D
02-15-2005, 12:57 PM
Those 8 extra cpu nodes(summing a total of 10) for mental ray would change a lot of things 8). And that shave and haircut integration is something strange. Like they don't trust it's own DCP plugin program(well, like mental ray versus final render option). But at the end, who cares

harmonic01
02-15-2005, 02:38 PM
There are no late-to-join programs available for subscription. That totally sucks. :-(

s0real
02-15-2005, 02:51 PM
does this also mean that viz 2006 is about to be released?
there's no word of it on the autodesk site...

Bobo
02-15-2005, 03:17 PM
And that shave and haircut integration is something strange. Like they don't trust it's own DCP plugin program

It is not about trust but about business.
A port of Shave was been in the works since around 2001 (Splutterfish worked on it for a while). Then it shipped and turned out that Joe Alter provided a time-bombed version of the core plugin that required regular downloads to keep running. (Or something along these lines). Splutterfish complained that VFX houses cannot afford to update plugins mid-production and they cannot endorse a version that stops working in the middle of a project and requires a download that could potentially introduce new errors or break compatibility etc. So Shave disappeared from the Max market. But obviously the code existed. Now if Dimension Design tells us that they are working on making HairFX competitive (to Ornatrix) for this Siggraph and Ornatrix is selling like fresh bread, what would Discreet pick to ship as Extension? Obviously the 3rd solution that already exists as Max code and does not sell at all.

Plus, Shave is available for Maya, Cinema4D and is the core of XSI's hair solution. What is good for them should be fine for the average Max user. The professionals will use Ornatrix or HairFX anyway... IMHO.

Steve Green
02-15-2005, 03:24 PM
I hear this 'why didn't they integrate X instead of Y a lot' - people seem to forget that the plugin maker has to actually agree to it...

It will be interesting to see how S&H is implemented in Max, and if it can be used beyond just hair, like is mentioned on Joe Alter's site here

http://www.joealter.com/newSite/render_files/sunflower.jpg

- Steve

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-15-2005, 07:09 PM
I've heard that viz 2006 is scheduled to ship possibly in March and that 3dsmax 7.5 extension has been delayed, but this is all rumored information. Hopefully we will see some announcements about this soon.

-Eric

opus13
02-15-2005, 09:15 PM
if discreet follows their normal plan, then it looks like this autumn will be pretty sweet (enter max 8 retail package speculation):

-MR 3.4 for 8 cpu's
-cloth
-hair
-viz bundled in
-bugfixes (naturally ;))

Armin A
02-15-2005, 10:28 PM
Someting is strange swedish forum have removed news about 7.5.

Silence32
02-15-2005, 10:35 PM
opus13 thats a little mistake i think, the right name isnt bugfixes, its bugoptimizing :thumbsup:

Spacelord
02-15-2005, 11:43 PM
Gee I wonder what happen to those links, they worked fine yesterday, none of them seem to work today, maybe the info was released to early.

PyRoT
02-16-2005, 12:46 AM
Im now thinking that it was just a joke.

pluMmet
02-16-2005, 12:49 AM
I've talked to people who work for Discreet that say they knew about it but couldn't say because of NDA and now have said. Even they are confused about the lack of response from discreet. I guess they won't comment anymore until discreet says to them what's going on. Check the other forums and you'll see people who work for discreet who have said that it's real.

marktsang
02-16-2005, 01:10 AM
hi plummet,
what fourms? i couldn'd find anywhere with half solid confirmation - all speculation

mark

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-16-2005, 02:22 AM
Once again the announcement has been delayed and Discreet has told all resellers to pull any information they had posted until it was official. It was suppose to be announced today as Bobo mentioned, but has been delayed for unknown reasons.

-Eric

Hazdaz
02-16-2005, 02:35 AM
Are there any upcoming exhibits/shows? Maybe they just postponed it until one of these shows - I think its a fairly decent upgrade (espeisally for a point-release), so maybe they want to make it a slightly bigger hub-bub than originally.... well either that, or they are trying to solve any last bugs that they can before its really released.
(and knowing Discreet software, my money is on the latter guess).

Kabab
02-16-2005, 02:42 AM
Unlike Maya, which I use at work, Disreet have realised that Nurbs are not as important since Sud-D arrived on the scene. They have concentrated on poly tools, which has made it in "my opinion" the best 3d package out there. Maya leave it to idivdual companies to develop there own in house tools becuase they can't be arsed to invest the time and money in new innovative poly modelling tools themselves.
Alias suck. :D
Just my two cents, don't get offended Maya lovers :eek:
Your kind of narrow minded and just looking at 2 very specific industries. Good nurbs support and a iges/stp importer has now made Maya the #1 choice for engineering and design
visualisation which is a massive industry. Nurbs are by no means dead they are just used for different applications.

MCronin
02-16-2005, 02:44 AM
Are there any upcoming exhibits/shows?

NAB Summit at the end of March, and GDC at the beginning of March... Either of these are likely events for press releases, mybet would be on the latter.


Maya leave it to idivdual companies to develop there own in house tools becuase they can't be arsed to invest the time and money in new innovative poly modelling tools themselves.

Perhaps it went beneath your notice, but it looks like the vast majority of the bullet points in this version of Max are coming from third party developers, as was with the last release and the release before that... All the programs are glomming on to the same third party solutions... no innovation what so ever.

visualride
02-16-2005, 04:05 AM
Perhaps it went beneath your notice, but it looks like the vast majority of the bullet points in this version of Max are coming from third party developers, as was with the last release and the release before that... All the programs are glomming on to the same third party solutions... no innovation what so ever.



This reminds me of when 3ds 4 (Dos version) came out. There were some nice 3rd party add on's but little innovation. Autodesk/Kinetix/Discreet was spending all their time finnishing up Max version One. Perhaps this point version is just to hold us till the 8.0 version, with an updated core (lots of intesive programming time), comes out.

MCronin
02-16-2005, 05:44 AM
Something tells me they aren't gearing up for a major new version of the software. It looks like they are outsourcing critical development jobs and rather than trying to innovate, just coasting along on their current marketshare. With every new version since 3 I've heard people drone on and on about this "core rewrite". It just doesn't ever seem to materialize.

pluMmet
02-16-2005, 09:09 AM
hi plummet,
what fourms? i couldn'd find anywhere with half solid confirmation - all speculation

mark

So no mater what happens it was the intention of Discreet to release this point release. I could speculate 3 or 4 things that could have happened to put it on hold but I don't really know.

I don't like pointing out things like this incase it causes trouble for anyone but I think it's important. I personaly was very very excited about the news. I've been having trouble with Final Render and the lack of any Hair combing features in HairFX. This point release solved some major issues for me. So hopfully I can point out this one fellow and you or whoever can look around for some others: http://www.maxforums.org/thread.aspx?tid=292274 the fellow from Bommer Labs works closley enough with Discreet that he in under NDA. The same NDA (in this case) that expired at midnight on the 14th. His sound intagration with max is top notch hence the need to work closley with Discreet. Check out his website.

And to mention it again the people who started it all (the original links that were provided in this thread) are Discreet Authorized Dealers. Not a very likely source of a fabrication.

topmegacool
02-16-2005, 11:43 AM
Good nurbs support and a iges/stp importer has now made Maya the #1 choice for engineering and design
visualisation which is a massive industry. Nurbs are by no means dead they are just used for different applications.
Humm I wouldn't say Maya is the #1 choice for engineering, I would rather mention "Studio tools" wich is also from alias, and other software like Katia (#1 in cars and planes industry), ironcad (for plate management) Rhino (for many good tools with nurbs) or other depending the kind of work you do and the way you manage it (solid, plate of metal...), but not Maya (and of corse certainly not Max http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/smile.gif).

jlelievre
02-16-2005, 07:28 PM
Well it looks as if part of the of the leaked features update is true. :)

Shave & Haircut (http://www.joealter.com/newSite/max.htm)

pluMmet
02-16-2005, 07:38 PM
Sweet! thanks intrinsia :)

So Joa Alter also has been released from the NDA - AWSOME!!!

pseudoE
02-16-2005, 07:58 PM
http://i.nl02.net/netline000s/?msg=msg.subs.txt&_m=1n%2e00cn%2ec%2emfm%2e8

can't...frigg'n...believe it...8 free nodes-

e.

Kabab
02-16-2005, 09:41 PM
Humm I wouldn't say Maya is the #1 choice for engineering, I would rather mention "Studio tools" wich is also from alias, and other software like Katia (#1 in cars and planes industry), ironcad (for plate management) Rhino (for many good tools with nurbs) or other depending the kind of work you do and the way you manage it (solid, plate of metal...), but not Maya (and of corse certainly not Max http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/smile.gif).
Btw its Catia being from france i thought you would have know this :)

I said engineering and design visualisation not for actual content creation.

pluMmet
02-16-2005, 09:56 PM
Man!!! Now Joe Alter has removed the info! WTF!

pluMmet
02-16-2005, 09:59 PM
Pseudo- did it say 8 nodes because now it doesn't. I know the original one did but I'm just wondering if they edited this one after you saw it?

pseudoE
02-16-2005, 10:12 PM
Pseudo- did it say 8 nodes because now it doesn't. I know the original one did but I'm just wondering if they edited this one after you saw it?

http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/shrug.gif This is nutty...Here's the txt as seen 2hrs ago....

mental ray 3.4—Delivering numerous optimizations, mental ray 3.4 will include faster final gathering performance, double precision computation for ray tracing, fast rasterization for first-generation rays and tighter integration with 3ds max shadow maps. mental ray 3.4 will also add Satellites, to allow 3ds max license owners to freely use up to eight slave CPUs to render an image using distributed bucket rendering.

pluMmet
02-16-2005, 10:16 PM
it's like the achient Egyptians. They changed the recorded history then acted like it never happened. Weird!

jlelievre
02-17-2005, 02:09 AM
Voodoo man...it's crazy...I don't know what's going on anymore! :D

stefan
02-17-2005, 07:29 AM
Nobody knows.
This site on joealter page is there for longer time. /mount and half or more/
Hope discreet will tell something officiall.:buttrock: It doesen't mather if everything was misinformation.:sad::sad::sad:
I just wont to know the truth. :) It is out there.:twisted:

mouj
02-17-2005, 10:31 AM
Heya, so has anyone found the vanishing news yet ? :)
MaxUnderground (http://maxunderground.com/archives/002814_max_75_for_subscription_members.html) has it posted as news, but seems like we're all waiting. Don't you guys think it could be a Discreet trick to stir it up ? :scream:
Anyhow, if any of you see anything, screenshot away !!

mouj

Viper
02-17-2005, 12:42 PM
This is all very strange and at the same time makes a lot of sense, afterall, Alias just released a new version of Maya wich contains mental ray 3.4. It's obvious discreet would want to get a new version of max soon with MR 3.4 so that they don't get behind.

S&H on the other hand has been on development for a huge time on splutterfish, I think since 2001, and we never got any solid news of what was going on. So this is left dubious right now, as it could be a rumor or maybe discreet did put their asses on to put the plugin good to go finally.

I hope we see a discreet news post about all this soon to clarify :)

halo
02-17-2005, 01:15 PM
hmm...lets hope its not like the "deep paint" fiasco before... :sad:

s0real
02-17-2005, 01:34 PM
i just had a look on the autodesk website forums and apparently viz 2006 is being beta tested, so i guess that part of the rumour is true...

i suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

gustojunk
02-17-2005, 01:47 PM
I'm still waiting for the 3D paint functionality on Max, is that something that is in the works? or was just a hoax?

Also the bundling plugin is nice and all, but I rather have Discreet using their time and resources in making Max better, I think a 10x faster that turbo smooth viewport response for heavy models is well overdue. So is a proper edge weighting or creasing for Sub-D like in XSI or Modo. Max's edge weighting is a joke.

Not ranting here, just bringing up what I think needs to be done, for our app of choice to stay not only competitive to attract new users, but also more useful for us current users.

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-17-2005, 03:20 PM
S&H on the other hand has been on development for a huge time on splutterfish, I think since 2001, and we never got any solid news of what was going on. So this is left dubious right now, as it could be a rumor or maybe discreet did put their asses on to put the plugin good to go finally.

From what I know Splutterfish stopped development on S&H after the licensing/timebomb fiasco with Joe Alter, which happened right after it was officially released. Since then I think Joe Alter has been working with some other developer to get it ported over, but that has been almost 2 years since that started. From what I have heard the announcement has been delayed for undisclosed reasons. Given this upgrade includes information about multiple 3rd party tools (MR, S&H, and Viz 2006) it may be that one of the other companies is holding up the announcement or that Discreet wants to get their facts straight before unleashing it to the hording public.

Here's to waiting to see what the future brings,
-Eric

Viper
02-17-2005, 03:53 PM
I wasn't aware of that part of the S&H port story. Time restriction is always a stupid way of managing your software :rolleyes: Anyway, I hope discreet get everything straigh in the following days....

charleyc
02-17-2005, 04:02 PM
hmm...lets hope its not like the "deep paint" fiasco before... :sad:

I was under the impression that the deep paint functionality integrated into max was the paint engine that is now prevelent in so many tools within max, just starting with the vertex paint. I don't remember ever reading that it would actually allow you to paint texturemaps. I think that was assumed when people read Deep Paint.

Anyway, I have heard a lot of good things about S&H. Splutterfish seemed to hold it in good regaurd until the licensing issue. I would sure be pleased to have that as the integrated hair tool in max :D
And any mr upgrades are alway welcome, especially ones involving additional nodes :D

So I am with Eric...here's to waiting to see what the future brings.

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-17-2005, 04:32 PM
I was under the impression that the deep paint functionality integrated into max was the paint engine that is now prevelent in so many tools within max, just starting with the vertex paint. I don't remember ever reading that it would actually allow you to paint texturemaps. I think that was assumed when people read Deep Paint.
"A system called Paint Studio for creating textures and maps has also been introduced. Based on Right Hemisphere's paint technology, the feature supports multiple layers, painting on multiple channels and accross multiple objects."
So that is what it was suppose to be. I had heard that the lead developer ended up in extremely ill and in the hospital and that was why it was pulled, but the question is where has it gone to and if/when will it come back?

-Eric

charleyc
02-17-2005, 07:07 PM
Ahhh, thanks for the clarification, I had always wondered where that idea came from. I was informed that the paint engine for vertex paint was based on their tech...I always assumed the other wasn't true. Perhaps that will be seen in R8 :D

Gary2
02-18-2005, 07:57 AM
just for clarification.. i bought a 1 year student liscense about 3 months ago for max...

will this student liscense give me access to 7.5?

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-18-2005, 03:02 PM
just for clarification.. i bought a 1 year student liscense about 3 months ago for max...

will this student liscense give me access to 7.5?

1) Wait for the product to be officially announced. It is still technically vaporware until it hits the customers hands.

2) Probably not...as a one year student license is not the same as the subscription program. For subscription you pay for the full software and then pay a yearly fee for upgrades and extensions. The student license is an inexpensive one year lease to use the software.

3) Once it is announced talk to your reseller as they are the ones who can answer these questions. You will just be wasting your breathe trying to get that answer now as resellers have been told to basically neither confirm nor deny the existence of the update.

-Eric

Note: I am not a reseller, but have heard this information from a few that I know.

eliseu gouveia
02-18-2005, 03:11 PM
To retrieve my soul back, my advice to Discreet would be to start looking at Maya and Lightwave prices.

Contrary to popular belief, artists (in general and freelancers in particular) aren´t exactly loaded in cash.

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-18-2005, 03:29 PM
To retrieve my soul back, my advice to Discreet would be to start looking at Maya and Lightwave prices.

Contrary to popular belief, artists (in general and freelancers in particular) aren´t exactly loaded in cash.

Then you could kiss all these extensions and frequent updates good bye, 3dsmax is on a 12-18 month product cycle. If you have a problem with the price go buy the cheaper software and bitch to their users about lack of features. Remember that to get hair in maya it costs $6,000 and there is a cheaper version of 3dsmax sold as Viz, however it lacks character and effects tools. So please go buy maya and learn to flame it as you will learn to do so. I know a lot more maya users than max users and they complain about the program more than any max user I have met.

Personally the fact that Discreet is sticking to their pricing makes me feel better about them than Alias or Softimage who need sales to support production and therefore cut prices and drop higher end features down to their lower end products in the hopes of stealing market shares. I say Discreet should stay where they are on the pricing, I feel they have done a good job with the max 7 update as it included numerous features and enhancements.

BTW, if you cant afford max then you may need to find a new line of business cause you are not as good as you think you are. MAx and the $2,500 notebook I bought to run it on paid for themselves after the first couple of jobs I worked on. Plus they have gotten me more business as the clients don't need licenses of Max or 3d software for me to do work for them.

-Eric

eliseu gouveia
02-18-2005, 03:41 PM
Such hostility.....

charleyc
02-18-2005, 03:45 PM
Contrary to popular belief, artists (in general and freelancers in particular) aren´t exactly loaded in cash.

If you are a freelancer in 3d, you should already own whatever software you are freelancing with, or have made arrangements with someone who does. There are a number VERY inexpensive 3d alternatives to 3dsmax (although I would not rank them in the same class), they can get most of the jobs done. If you are freelancing and cannot afford 3dsmax, then you either HAVE to use what you can afford, or should seriously consider your occupation. I am a freelance artstist, I saved up while working a regular job and purchased max, and I now pay subscription fees, maintain a production worthy workstation, and feed and house my wife and 3 kids. If any of that was not the case, I would not be freelancing. If I wanted to be a race car driver, I wouldn't tell Ferrari they need to reduce the cost of their product because ametures and enthusiasts can't afford it.

charleyc
02-18-2005, 03:47 PM
Such hostility.....

Sorry if it seems that way, but IMO this is an old and senseless subject that has aired itself to death.

Lyr
02-18-2005, 04:02 PM
Remember that to get hair in maya it costs $6,000

Unless you buy shave and a haircut for $300 ;)

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-18-2005, 05:29 PM
Unless you buy shave and a haircut for $300 ;)
That is true, but I don't feel that Maya Complete is a competitor with Max. Since there is no Cloth, Tracker, Hair or Fur you are saving $1500 for alot less features. Which if/when Max 7.5 is released means that you have alot more features for about 1/2 the cost of the closest competing version of Maya. In reality the pricing/feature comparisons is about right for the 2 packages, but I personally thing you get a better deal with Max than Maya Complete.

-Eric

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-18-2005, 05:42 PM
Such hostility.....
Uninformed stupidity and ignorance breeds hostility. Discreet is one of the few 3d developers that hasn't changed their pricing yet they have one of the larger user bases. Now why as a company would you want to jeopardize the future of their product to satisfy you? You obviously have little knowledge of business. There are a few reason companies drop their pricing A) it was too overpriced to begin with or B) cause their business is hurting and need the additional revenue, C) supply and demand - the demand for the package has diminished so you must cut cost to influence new demand. I personally don't see Discreet in any of those categories, Softimage and Alias definitely fit atleast one if not more of those criteria.

-Eric

halo
02-18-2005, 05:55 PM
well, thats the negative points of why a company has to drop prices...perhaps alias just want more market share.

what will you think if discreet drop their price?

i dont know where the angst in this thread comes from...do people sleep with their software or something?

lets try and keep this thread away from those he said she said software wars...makes the place look crap cheap and amatuer.

jackburton
02-18-2005, 06:04 PM
can't...frigg'n...believe it...8 free nodes-



I'm sure they have to do something like that, if MR's node recognition works like I think. What if you're running a dual proc machine with dual-core cpu's. That's 4 nodes right there, right?

charleyc
02-18-2005, 06:30 PM
I'm sure they have to do something like that, if MR's node recognition works like I think. What if you're running a dual proc machine with dual-core cpu's. That's 4 nodes right there, right?

I have never used (or know of anyone personally using) the dual core CPU's, but since they are essentially an alternative to a dual processor, I would think you are correct. I know it doesn't view HT as a full node, but I do believe that dual-core CPU's could be (and probably should be) different. Either way, you get 4 times the number of processing power as before :D


what will you think if discreet drop their price?

i dont know where the angst in this thread comes from...do people sleep with their software or something?

If discreet drops their price, I for will think it has something to do with the above mentioned issues. It isn't a matter of whether or not it could happen, it is a fact that so far it has not.

The angst in this thread is the same angst that is prevailent in most all the cg community forums (don't visit any others so I don't know about them) concerning any subject. People these days just like to argue the negatives I guess.


lets try and keep this thread away from those he said she said software wars...makes the place look crap cheap and amatuer.

:D as does all foolish bickering....

f97ao
02-18-2005, 07:03 PM
I think a 10x faster that turbo smooth viewport response for heavy models is well overdue.
Not ranting here, just bringing up what I think needs to be done, for our app of choice to stay not only competitive to attract new users, but also more useful for us current users.

I agree that faster modeling speed is one of the top things that I want to be improved in 3dsmax. However in my humble biased and evil opinion, this will not be a problem for that much longer.

As many of you know I'm developing a plugin, PolySpeed, that optimizes large objects, viewports and modifiers enormously. PolySpeed Basic is not that far away from being released, and when I normally work a speed increase of about 200x is common (that means the object can be 200 times bigger than normal in 3dsmax and have the same speed). Right now 500k-1mil objects is very fast to work with, but with PolySpeed Advanced 5mil objects will be very fast as well.

PolySpeed also introduces a large number of other features like adaptive detail for smoothing, special colored control cage, safe collapse, variation layers (that let you save different versions of say a finger or a hand) and a very complex layer tool that can save subobject selections that survive topology changes etc.

You are more than welcome to test PolySpeed 0.95 and ask for tools that you want in 3dsmax.

A movie of me working on a 600,000 object with smoothing:
www.fusion-wave.com/polyspeed/speed3.zip (http://www.fusion-wave.com/polyspeed/speed3.zip)

A movie of me working on a 2,500,000 object with smoothing and noise:
www.fusion-wave.com/polyspeed/2500000_with_noise.zip (http://www.fusion-wave.com/polyspeed/2500000_with_noise.zip)

many movies:
http://www.fusion-wave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8

pictures:
http://www.fusion-wave.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=104

When it comes to 3d painting that is something I would love myself, perhaps I will do something like that later, I have large parts of the concepts for 3d brushes already finished. :)

/Andreas

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-18-2005, 07:12 PM
I have never used (or know of anyone personally using) the dual core CPU's, but since they are essentially an alternative to a dual processor, I would think you are correct. I know it doesn't view HT as a full node, but I do believe that dual-core CPU's could be (and probably should be) different. Either way, you get 4 times the number of processing power as before :D
Just remember that Satellite rendering is for single frame distributed rendering from within Max. These are not full render nodes, those still cost about $500-1000 per processor.

well, thats the negative points of why a company has to drop prices...perhaps alias just want more market share.

what will you think if discreet drop their price?

i dont know where the angst in this thread comes from...do people sleep with their software or something?

lets try and keep this thread away from those he said she said software wars...makes the place look crap cheap and amatuer.
Discreet has already stated publicly that they weren't going to drop their prices. This was with the max 6 and possibly 7 announcements. Personally I think adding tools to better the program is better approach than dropping cost. Yes lets not start any wars, but lets also keep people from bitching and complaining about price and lack of features. It does nothing to help the community. If its missing a feature purchase the tools that support it. If it costs too much find a cheaper alternative. Does max have its flaws? Yes it does and I work around them like you have to with any program. This topic of feature and price comes up with every update for every package. I'm just tired of people complaining, especially here, rather than choosing another option. This is not the Discreet board if you want your complaints heard do it there.

-Eric

Geonome
02-23-2005, 11:54 AM
Its true its true, had me worried there for a bit.

http://www.cgarchitect.com/news/newsfeed.asp?nid=2490

Geonome

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-23-2005, 02:51 PM
The official announcement can be found at: http://www4.discreet.com/company/press.php?id=1076

This is the same as the cgarchitect one but is posted on the Discreet Site.

-Eric

Bobo
02-23-2005, 02:55 PM
I have never used (or know of anyone personally using) the dual core CPU's, but since they are essentially an alternative to a dual processor, I would think you are correct. I know it doesn't view HT as a full node, but I do believe that dual-core CPU's could be (and probably should be) different. Either way, you get 4 times the number of processing power as before :D


Actually, AFAIK, mental ray DOES see HT as a full node, for that reason the Discreet guys went to the mental images guys and asked them to allow Max to ship with 4 CPUs support. Since the embedded mental ray can only work on a single workstation and the only 4 CPU machines in those days were Dual Xeons with HT, it was ok to allow that. I assume that if you had 2 dual-core CPUs, the same would apply...

Maven
02-23-2005, 05:17 PM
Coming in April! With 3ds max 7.5, exclusively for 3ds max 7 software subscription members, Discreet further empowers 3D artists who want to raise the bar for their work. Whether it is in feature films or state-of-the-art design visualization, 3ds max 7.5 delivers what artists need.

Release 7.5 will provide new and enhanced functionality in three key areas:

•Hair and Fur—Based on Joe Alter's highly regarded "Shave and a Haircut" solution, Hair and Fur will offer numerous styling and dynamics tools for creating amazingly realistic hair and other strand-derivative effects.

mental ray 3.4—Delivering numerous optimizations, mental ray 3.4 will include faster final gathering performance, double precision computation for ray tracing and fast rasterization for first-generation rays.

Autodesk VIZ—With the very latest technologies from Autodesk VIZ, product designers, architects, inventors and others in the design visualization arena will have the advanced modeling, lighting, rendering and animation tools that are exclusive to 3ds max combined with the unique design-oriented functionality of Autodesk VIZ—all in a single package.

Link (http://i.nl02.net/netline000s/?msg=msg.subs.txt&_m=1n%2e00cn%2e1%2emm05p0838n%2e8)

polygun
02-23-2005, 05:24 PM
BTW, if you cant afford max then you may need to find a new line of business cause you are not as good as you think you are. MAx and the $2,500 notebook I bought to run it on paid for themselves after the first couple of jobs I worked on. Plus they have gotten me more business as the clients don't need licenses of Max or 3d software for me to do work for them.

-Eric

Damn man, you are a different person here than on the Splutterfish registered user forums. That was kind of uncalled for, hey?

So because they arent exactly good enough to get high paying freelance jobs, yet they choose max as their software they should just pack it up and go home? That kind of mentality breeds piracy. Let me know if I misunderstood you though, it's early.

If you do enough snooping, enough asking and pushing, you may get a nice deal.

Then again, you can always 'rent' max for $125 /year instead of buying it outright for 3 grand.

Pixelmaestro
02-23-2005, 05:26 PM
Part of the press release: Cut from Wall Street Journal Online

3ds max 7.5 software is expected to be available in mid-April to customers
in the Discreet Subscription Program, a group that has grown to include more
than 40,000 Discreet 3ds max software artists worldwide who value early access
to new functionalities. 3ds max subscription customers can be eligible to
receive valuable self-paced training options, feature-rich product extensions
and a broad range of other technology and business benefits.

I surprised by the 40 K number for subsciption customers. It sounds like it will be available around the time of NAB in Las Vegas.

charleyc
02-23-2005, 06:14 PM
Actually, AFAIK, mental ray DOES see HT as a full node, for that reason the Discreet guys went to the mental images guys and asked them to allow Max to ship with 4 CPUs support. Since the embedded mental ray can only work on a single workstation and the only 4 CPU machines in those days were Dual Xeons with HT, it was ok to allow that. I assume that if you had 2 dual-core CPUs, the same would apply...

hmm, that is interesting. Makes sense as there are 2 buckets per HT processor. So then is the 8 node support 8 HT processors, or 4 HT processors. I believe the marketing of the current max is as a 2 node liscence.

So because they arent exactly good enough to get high paying freelance jobs, yet they choose max as their software they should just pack it up and go home? That kind of mentality breeds piracy. Let me know if I misunderstood you though, it's early....

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that if someone is unable to get jobs that pay for the software they want to use, then they should use it anyway? If you cannot afford max, by doing freelance jobs, then you should not be using it to do them. Thinking you can anyway is what breeds piracy. If you want to go into business for yourself (freelance) then you need to do so by the rules. If you want to freelance using max, and you cannot afford it, talk to you bank, its what you have to do in order to buy the car you need to drive yourself to work. Try and make arrangements to purchase it. The mentality that I can use a pirated version until I can afford to buy it is foolish and illegal (at least in some contries).

Back to topic...
I am fairly excited to see how this Sweep modifier works. I will assume that it will be scriptable!?!? :D :D :D....This release really makes subscription worth it this year.

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-23-2005, 07:03 PM
Damn man, you are a different person here than on the Splutterfish registered user forums. That was kind of uncalled for, hey?

So because they arent exactly good enough to get high paying freelance jobs, yet they choose max as their software they should just pack it up and go home? That kind of mentality breeds piracy. Let me know if I misunderstood you though, it's early.

If you do enough snooping, enough asking and pushing, you may get a nice deal.

Then again, you can always 'rent' max for $125 /year instead of buying it outright for 3 grand.

Sorry I just get tired of people complaining about the price of 3dsmax. It happens all the time and I have yet to see a valid reason why. I would probably act the same if someone was complaining about the price of brazil. You use what you can afford, if you cant afford then find an alternative that you can. I use max cause it gave me the features I needed at the price point I could afford. Sure at the time Maya Unlimited and XSI Advanced had features I would have loved to have, but I couldn't afford them so I got 3dsmax. Like charleyc said find a legal way to get it, or purchase a lower priced alternative and except any downfalls or limitations that come with it. Could Discreet offer stripped down versions, yes. They have in the past, however Viz is the only one that has really succeeded. Does anyone remember Plasma? The $125 lease is only for the non-commercial educational versions, as far as I know. Discreet realizes that if you purchase 3dsmax for commercial reasons that you expect certain things in the future and a price cut could jeopardize what they can afford to do with future versions.

-Eric

halo
02-23-2005, 07:08 PM
www.cgarchitect.com/news/article265.asp

Latest Software Update Will Expand Company’s 3D Modeling and Animation Features with Built-in Hair and Fur, mental ray 3.4, and Integrated Visualization Tools

San Francisco , Calif. — February 23 rd , 2005— Discreet, the media and entertainment division of Autodesk , Inc. (NASDAQ: ADSK), today announced 3ds max 7.5 software,an upgrade exclusively for its 3ds max ® subscription customers that will deliver a broad range of sought-after new features and capabilities. The Discreet

3ds max 7.5 software subscription upgrade was developed to provide complete file compatibility with the current 3ds max 7 software, and will add significant enhancements ranging from a robust integrated hair and fur system, the most current version ofmental ray® 3.4 by mental images—and a new design toolset that combines the feature sets of 3ds max and Autodesk® VIZsoftware.

The 3ds max 7.5 software subscription upgrade will especially equip 3ds max software artists working in feature film and game cinematics who want to raise the bar for their 3ds max software work with amazingly realistic hair and fur, and mental ray 3.4, the newest version of the award-winning rendering solution on the market, will offer extended rendering options. Design visualization artists will benefit from a substantial new set of complimentary design visualization features in 3ds max 7.5 software and the mental ray 3.4 advanced rendering features from improved interoperability with DWG-based 3D CAD applications like Autodesk Revit and Autodesk VIZ.

"After delivering a powerful cloth solution to our installed base of 3ds max software subscription customers last month—Discreet continues to drive value and feature benefits with today’s announced addition of award-winning hair and fur extensions, mental ray 3.4, and numerous extensions for the game cinematics and design and visualisation community,” said Marc Petit, vice president of product development at Discreet. “With 3ds max 7.5 software, Discreet further underlines its leadership in total cost of ownership and redefines the level of expectation for a high end 3D package—that ultimately gives our artists the power of an integrated professional 3D pipeline at their fingertips ,” said Petit.

Hair and Fur— Based on Joe Alter’s highly regarded “Shave and a Haircut” solution, the hair and fur in 3ds max 7.5 software offers numerous styling and dynamics tools for creating realistic hair and other strand-derivative effects. These include:

Styling tools —brush tool for combing hair and brushing along complicated contours with “re-comb,” as well as support for clumping and frizz for added realism
Hair dynamics tools —using the dynamics engine of Shave and the dynamic forces of 3ds max to inherit inertia directly from the Skin or any other modifier’s surface movement
mental ray integration —fast, memory-efficient and direct rendering using the native mental ray hair primitive
Hair, plus —instanced geometry can be used as individual hairs to easily create forests, fields of flowers and other landscapes
mental ray 3.4—3ds max 7.5 software will feature mental ray 3.4, mental images’ most current version. Each seat of 3ds max 7.5 will provide access to numerous mental ray 3.4 optimizations, including faster final gathering performance, and fast rasterization for first-generation rays.

Visualization Features—3ds max customers in design markets often require a broad cross-section of 3D and visualization tools. With the subscription delivery of 3ds max 7.5, product designers, architects, inventors and others in this space will have the advanced modeling capabilities offered in 3ds max and Autodesk VIZ in a single package.
Radiosity Adaptive Subdivision —adds adaptive subdivision to the radiosity plug-in, enabling higher quality, more accurate and more efficient radiosity processing
Batch render —gives users a solution to quickly render a series of stills from different angles, with the option to change render settings and layers in between views
UVW mapping improvement— place physically-scaled materials onto objects in the scene more easily and accurately with support for real-world measurements
Sweep modifier —“Loft” a shape or profile along lines or polylines imported from AutoCAD or line work created in 3ds max, even applying pre-set shapes to simple linework
Scene State —capture object, layer, material, camera and light information as a "scene state” that can be saved and restored at will
Autodesk Revit ® 7 Interoperability —Autodesk Revit users can now create high-quality images of their models with 3ds max7.5 by importing/linking a Revit model via the DWG format, and having their scene objects correspond directly to individual Revit objects
Autodesk Inventor ® Interoperability— access the Inventor file option directly within the import tool

DWF export —convey ideas and share designs by exporting models from
3ds max 7.5 for viewing with Autodesk DWF Viewer and Autodesk DWF Composer

3ds max 7.5 software is expected to be available in mid-April to customers in the Discreet Subscription Program, a group that has grown to include more than 40,000 Discreet 3ds max software artists worldwide who value early access to new functionalities. 3ds max subscription customers can be eligible to receive valuable self-paced training options, feature-rich product extensions and a broad range of other technology and business benefits.

Discreet 3ds max software is available for US $3,495 and 3ds max Subscription is available for an additional US $440. For more information about the subscription program for 3ds max software, contact a Discreet Authorized Reseller or visit http://www.discreet.com/subscription/.

Discreet software customers continue to embrace 3ds max software in motion picture production, with the application being favored for the creation of recent memorable visual effects for SkyCaptain and The World of Tomorrow, The Day After Tomorrow and many other films. 3ds max software is also the tool of choice among renowned architectural firms including HOK, KDLAB, Bombardier, OVI, and Urban Simulations for producing final design elements and cinematics. 3ds max software can be purchased now for $3,495 US. For more information, please visit http://www4.discreet.com/3dsmax/.

About Discreet
Discreet empowers media professionals to realize the visual experience and transform their most evocative and ambitious visions into reality. Discreet's award-winning solutions are designed for digital media creation, management, and delivery—across all disciplines from film and television visual effects, color grading, and editing to animation, game development, web/interactive, and design visualization. Discreet is based in Montréal, Québec, and is the media and entertainment division of Autodesk, Inc., the world's leading design and digital media creation, management, and distribution company. Product and corporate information: www.discreet.com.

Founded in 1982, Autodesk is headquartered in San Rafael, California. For additional information about Autodesk, please visit www.autodesk.com.

###

Discreet is a division of Autodesk, Inc. Discreet, 3ds max and Autodesk VIZ are registered trademarks of Autodesk, Inc. in the USA and/or other countries. All other brand names, product names, or trademarks belong to their respective holders.

© 2005, Autodesk, Inc. All rights reserved.

ThirdEye
02-23-2005, 07:11 PM
Sorry but... Has anyone ever used Shave and Haircut here? As a C4D user (with Shave) i have to say i'd love to have a hair system such as Ornatrix. The only part i really save about Shave is the dynamics system, the shading part is frankly very poor and not intuitive at all imho.

Nixon
02-23-2005, 07:42 PM
halo, I like discreet's own press release better:

http://www4.discreet.com/subscription/subscription.php?id=432#3dsmax7_5

it's cleaner and more precise.

Also, they've put videos from some of the new features here:

http://www4.discreet.com/3dsmax/3dsmax.php?id=870

I wonder if "subscribed" status are customers a month old. I'm teaching in a university where they bought max just these days and they'll be installing it next week. And since it's an architectural university, I guess 7.5 upgrade would be veeery nice to have in April. :)

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-23-2005, 07:44 PM
Sorry but... Has anyone ever used Shave and Haircut here? As a C4D user (with Shave) i have to say i'd love to have a hair system such as Ornatrix. The only part i really save about Shave is the dynamics system, the shading part is frankly very poor and not intuitive at all imho.

The problem you have their is you don't have access to MR with Cinema 4D so you are using the post effect version which is there for compatibility and speed not quality.

-Eric

halo
02-23-2005, 07:51 PM
I wonder if "subscribed" status are customers a month old. I'm teaching in a university where they bought max just these days and they'll be installing it next week. And since it's an architectural university, I guess 7.5 upgrade would be veeery nice to have in April. :)

subscription is something that you purchase extra to the purchase price of an upgrade, its not something thats time dependent on when you last purchased or thrown in normally. I would think that you may be out of luck on that, because you should know if you're subscribed or not...perhaps worth having a word in the IT purchasers shelllike...but then educational offerings could be completely different (they did used to be before, you got a cheap product but every version had to be paid for, there was no "upgrade" just a repurchase price again at a discounted rate...think after 4 versions max cost you more than it did to buy with all the upgrades so they may have changed that).

polygun
02-23-2005, 08:09 PM
Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but are you saying that if someone is unable to get jobs that pay for the software they want to use, then they should use it anyway? If you cannot afford max, by doing freelance jobs, then you should not be using it to do them. Thinking you can anyway is what breeds piracy. If you want to go into business for yourself (freelance) then you need to do so by the rules. If you want to freelance using max, and you cannot afford it, talk to you bank, its what you have to do in order to buy the car you need to drive yourself to work. Try and make arrangements to purchase it. The mentality that I can use a pirated version until I can afford to buy it is foolish and illegal (at least in some contries).


lol, yes you are misunderstanding me. I figure it promotes piracy, not that I have first hand information on that seeing as I'm a registered max user and brazil user.

Like I said, if you can't afford 3k for max, you can rent it for $125/year.

I wasnt saying that it automatically makes piracy right. It doesnt. I was responding directly to pixel monkey's comment. I wasnt making a broad statement really.

Nixon
02-23-2005, 09:58 PM
subscription is something that you purchase extra to the purchase price of an upgrade, its not something thats time dependent on when you last purchased or thrown in normally.

I don't know all that policy things, but I guess I know what subscription is. For me, somehow it doesn't seem right to buy a software and wait for like the next version (I guess 8.0 will come beginning of 2006) so that you can get core updates, fixes and plugins. Especially those architectural add-ons they're talking about. Autodesk gives same price for max and viz but they sure don't cost the same on the market. Max is upgraded more often, so it even cost more.

I don't like all these things about subscribtion being "the future of the software market". I wonder where will that all lead to? It's ok for me if subscription is like a lot of training materials, support and some software, but sure don't feel right the other way. Maybe one day we'll pay by hours of use like in some custom service shop? And depending on the tools you use it'll cost more and more.

5$$$ bucks every time you shut down windows... hahaha http://cgtalk.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

charleyc
02-23-2005, 10:19 PM
I don't know all that policy things, but I guess I know what subscription is. For me, somehow it doesn't seem right to buy a software and wait for like the next version (I guess 8.0 will come beginning of 2006) so that you can get core updates, fixes and plugins. Especially those architectural add-ons they're talking about. Autodesk gives same price for max and viz but they sure don't cost the same on the market. Max is upgraded more often, so it even cost more....

I am not sure if I am following you on this, but scubscription can be entered into at any type of purchase, full or upgrade. So in reality, you pay $440 extra during your next purchase and then pay only your anual $440 and you get every update within the year of your subscription. Right now subscription is not the only way to get max, so it really doesn't matter, you can go either way. But the incentives are certainly biased towards subsciption.

Nando
02-24-2005, 12:18 AM
Subscription is not an option for educational, only commercial seats.

folks have 30 days from when they register there Max licenses ( authorize max online) to get on subscription, or else they are SOL.
$440.00 is a great price for all the goods you get if you want to stay current with Max.
E-learning
extensions
Max upgrade for the cost of subscription( regular max upgrade cost yearly $795.00US)
Upgrade package shipped to door steps or office free of charge. ;)

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-24-2005, 01:49 AM
I don't know all that policy things, but I guess I know what subscription is. For me, somehow it doesn't seem right to buy a software and wait for like the next version (I guess 8.0 will come beginning of 2006) so that you can get core updates, fixes and plugins. Especially those architectural add-ons they're talking about. Autodesk gives same price for max and viz but they sure don't cost the same on the market. Max is upgraded more often, so it even cost more.
For a company like Discreet it means constant influx of money based on when users purchased their software rather than having to wait for new releases to get money. For the end users it means bonus tools and updates as the company wants you to keep on Subscription. It also means less money and easy budgeting for individuals and companies. So you know that every February you need to pay $440 to keep max up to date, instead of trying to budget for when the next version may be available. I personally think its a great deal for both the end user and the company itself.

-Eric

flyboyscn06
02-24-2005, 02:33 AM
For a company like Discreet it means constant influx of money based on when users purchased their software rather than having to wait for new releases to get money. For the end users it means bonus tools and updates as the company wants you to keep on Subscription. It also means less money and easy budgeting for individuals and companies. So you know that every February you need to pay $440 to keep max up to date, instead of trying to budget for when the next version may be available. I personally think its a great deal for both the end user and the company itself.

-Eric

I must say that i believe you are wrong there pixel monkey. It is not necessarily a good deal for the client when the company, namely Autodesk/Discreet, has in the past released updates without the use of a subscription service. (Anyone remember 3ds max 5.1 and 3ds max 5.1 SP1?) I think it is a way for Discreet to make money. No offense to them, it's a great marketing technique, but for those of us (like me) who don't have subscriptions, but have the eductional licensed version, it would be nice to be able to incorporate hair and fur effects with the aid of mental ray updates.

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-24-2005, 04:00 AM
I must say that i believe you are wrong there pixel monkey. It is not necessarily a good deal for the client when the company, namely Autodesk/Discreet, has in the past released updates without the use of a subscription service. (Anyone remember 3ds max 5.1 and 3ds max 5.1 SP1?) I think it is a way for Discreet to make money. No offense to them, it's a great marketing technique, but for those of us (like me) who don't have subscriptions, but have the eductional licensed version, it would be nice to be able to incorporate hair and fur effects with the aid of mental ray updates.
What you don't know is that Discreet/Autodesk requires that new features (which Clothfx, Shave, MR 3.4, and Viz features are) requires a paid update so without subscription you would have to wait for the next major release which is 6+ months down the road or pay for the .5 update, like maya users had to with maya 6.5. 5.1 and 5.1 SP1 were bug fixes and/or feature enhancements, hence a free update. I personally do my best to research my information before posting and this information I was told by Discreet resellers. So where is your proof?

I am sorry to hear you won't have access to the features but business is driven by money so it doesn't surprise me that they don't offer subscription for the extremely cheap educational version. The sad truth is that you may help them sell licenses in the future, if you work for a company that purchases max or you buy it yourself, but educational licenses don't bring in new commercial customers. Knowing that users could have access to new features or have missed out on the new features 6+ months before the next major update will help sell commercial licenses now and make users think twice about adding subscription with the next release. **These were my views/speculation on the subject of not allowing educational subscription/7.5 update so please take them as that, nothing more/nothing less.**

-Eric

Per-Anders
02-24-2005, 04:38 AM
The problem you have their is you don't have access to MR with Cinema 4D so you are using the post effect version which is there for compatibility and speed not quality.

-Eric

what do you mean?

Shave is a Volumetric hair rendering system, it's a volumetric in each system it's been in including the C4D one and uses it's own "render engine" in each system, this is in fact how Shave operates. It's certainly not fast. Don't confuse XSI's hair with Shave (they're worlds apart and use a totally different engine now).

In C4D I believe it does run within post, however that has zero bearing on quality or what can be achieved (Cinema has a full volumetric video post system integrated at all stages of the rendering pipeline with full access to render engine data illumination models etc though in this case it uses it's own custom built illumination model and "engine" this being the same engine used in each platform), there would be no difference between rendering as an environmental volumetric and a videopost except in workflow for the user.

Having used Shave in a few incarnations I can only agree with ThirdEye on this, I would sooner use some of the existing Max hair solutions.

Jozvex
02-24-2005, 05:00 AM
what do you mean?

Shave is a Volumetric hair rendering system,

I think he means things like this:

"We've produced a geometry shader which interoperates with maya2mr, and runs native inside Mental Ray. You just run your renders as usual. It generates Mental Ray Hair Primitives, and we have a Mental Ray Surface shader which will apply the correct colors and properties. We also have modes that will let you write hair into Mental Ray as real hair primitive geometry..."

That's from the shave website.

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-24-2005, 05:30 AM
I think he means things like this:

"We've produced a geometry shader which interoperates with maya2mr, and runs native inside Mental Ray. You just run your renders as usual. It generates Mental Ray Hair Primitives, and we have a Mental Ray Surface shader which will apply the correct colors and properties. We also have modes that will let you write hair into Mental Ray as real hair primitive geometry..."

That's from the shave website.
Yes as stated in the PR and e-mailed info Max 7.5 implementation of Shave will support MR's Hair Primitive and if it allows SDK support that means someone could add access to other renders with a hair primitive like Vray and any other future renderers that have such a feature.

Just look at the image created by Kelcy Previt, a Discreet Demo Artist that is in the e-mailed info:

http://i.nl00.net/discreet/Images/main752a.jpg

-Eric

charleyc
02-24-2005, 05:44 AM
This topic of S&H as well as the subsciption issue is also going on at the discreet web board
http://support.discreet.com/wb/default.asp?action=9&read=50270&fid=24

As for the S&H issue, it was stated there that there are 3 ways to render hair. the first is as a post effect (described as the same as the C4D approach) the second is as pure geometry (thus any renderer capable of lots of geometry (take your pick) should easily handle this. Finally as the mental ray Hair primative as described above. It sounds to me like there will be plenty of room to make this a very fast and viable hair solution.

As for the subscription issue, if you are not on subscription, think of this as a sneak peak into just some of what will be in r8. From the beginning Discreet promised more to subscription holders. It was no big secret. Anyone who owns a commercial version of max was no doubt informed of how subscription works. If you are using an education version, then sorry, but I seriously doubt that getting this feature 6 months earlier than everyone else with r8 will get you any further down the road to landing a job then you would have without it.
...funny I don't remember people bitching about not getting the subscription goodies when the DWG File Link was given out last year, or really even with PFlow the year before that...in fact I seem to remember reading a number of threads on numerous forums ragging on how lame the subscription was and how Discreet wasn't living up to their promises.....Just goes to show that you will never make everyone happy...ever.

charleyc
02-24-2005, 06:15 AM
Looks like they just got some videos up at Discreet.
http://www4.discreet.com/3dsmax/3dsmax.php?id=870 (http://www4.discreet.com/3dsmax/3dsmax.php?id=870)

the Sweep modifier looks to certainly exceed my expectations :D

PiXeL_MoNKeY
02-24-2005, 06:20 AM
Looks like they just got some videos up at Discreet.
http://www4.discreet.com/3dsmax/3dsmax.php?id=870 (http://www4.discreet.com/3dsmax/3dsmax.php?id=870)

the Sweep modifier looks to certainly exceed my expectations :D

Yeah just watched those and the majority of the features look great, now we just need the hair videos :applause:. Especially Scene State, Adaptive Radiosity, and the Sweep Modifier. Thank you Discreet and thank you to me for getting subscription.

-Eric

Nando
02-24-2005, 07:30 AM
thank you to me for getting subscription.
-Eric

Bwhahahahhah talk about patting your own back or
T00ting ur own horn.

:D

flyboyscn06
02-24-2005, 03:31 PM
The sad truth is that you may help them sell licenses in the future, if you work for a company that purchases max or you buy it yourself, but educational licenses don't bring in new commercial customers.
-Eric

Actually, to tell you the truth, I have been working with 3ds max since version 5 first came out. I started using it in 8th grade. I am a junior in high school using 3ds max 7 on an educational basis, and have become quite skilled in it. Through my experience with the program, I would have to say, that I will most definitely be thinking about starting a company myself down the road and purchasing a commercial license, or lloking for a company that would be willng to give me a job that would purchase the commercial license. The point is, I think ed. licenses help generate interest for commercial licenses.

polygun
02-24-2005, 03:58 PM
thank you to me for getting subscription.


Bahaha, hell yes. I usually make all the wrong choices, but I have to be honest, I am SO GLAD I chose to get the subscription over my own personal copy of Brazil. Im lost without brazil, but damn it....sweep? hair? SCENE STATES?

oh god. Finally the one choice I made that pays off

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