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nottoshabi
07-08-2006, 11:19 PM
No wories man I figured it out. It took a little bit of group flirting. But it works now.

thiagolima
08-05-2006, 11:16 AM
Hi eek, very nice work you've done I'm not as a good rigger actually, I'm more focused on animation, however I've studied to know how to do a " enough" rig for my characters...

My question is about the T-muscles, the effect of squash that the peaks points do. Have you got any document, tutorial about how to do them? or can you explain how to do?

I'd really appreciate it.

Cheers!!

Thiago Lima

JohnSpin
08-24-2006, 05:54 PM
I tried to read every page, but i just got too confused after about page 20. Anyways, i'm an animator, and i know "jack" about rigging.

I've taken a look at the early version (.max), and thought the rig had tremendous potential.

I guess my question is, is there a newer and better version i could take a look at? I don't intend to copy or distribute the rig or face, but what i do need is something that moves and feels realistic. I'm doing some R & D, and i'm just curious to see the different ways people are using to animate and rig a face. For example, what does Pixar's rig look like... or Davy Jones's rig look like???

Any help, suggestions, pictures, or anything else you all can offer would be a big help. Already this thread has given me sooo many ideas.:thumbsup:

pankajsatpute
08-25-2006, 09:07 AM
hi eyerybody
i m working in a production house newly
so we have undertaken a project in which we r animatng a camel with facial expressions
we want to make it look like clay model so is the rigging tecnique different for it or its the same rigging process.
how will i add facial expressions through bones.
we r using configuration 2gb ram, 256 GC .
and basically we r having a small production house so we rnt aware of rendering
they r expecting an output like ice age dvd quality.
pls reply urgently

kruugs
10-30-2006, 08:13 PM
Hello,

I have this character that has an attribute that changes the head geometry using the polygon smooth tool to 3 different levels of smoothness. (1, 2, 3). The facial blends that came with the character works on all three levels of polygon smooth.

What I want to do is add a few more facial control attributes to this character. So, I went ahead and created the same 3 levels of poly smooth target blendshapes for each separate new blend that I am trying to add. <<<-----Am I correct to do that?

Now heres the problem: How do i set up it up so when I change the Head Smoothness attribute on the character to 'level 3' for example, that only the 'level 3' target blendshapes will be used, and not the 'level 1 or 2' blendshapes'? Or when I change the smoothness to 'level 2', then only the 'level 2' blendshapes are used.

Does this make sense?

Or is there a better way to do this?

Thank you.

supasye
10-31-2006, 02:05 PM
woaah,, think i just read more everything else ive read in my life put together,, feeling very drowsy now....... fantastic rig i love it....
have you made that tutorial yet??

i think im having helluzinationz iamamzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ............

ivanisavich
11-12-2006, 04:49 AM
Hey Eek,

INSANE stuff you got going on! Keep it up!


hi eyerybody
i m working in a production house newly
so we have undertaken a project in which we r animatng a camel with facial expressions
we want to make it look like clay model so is the rigging tecnique different for it or its the same rigging process.
how will i add facial expressions through bones.
we r using configuration 2gb ram, 256 GC .
and basically we r having a small production house so we rnt aware of rendering
they r expecting an output like ice age dvd quality.
pls reply urgently


Hahahaha...this is the funniest post I've read in a long time. Let me guess....you also have an uncle in Nigeria who has $400,000 he needs transfered to an American bank because his father died, so the first person to send their bank info and social security number gets it?

acamporota
11-14-2006, 11:41 AM
i don't know if this can help you but if you see my website you can download some facial bone rig setup

only for 3dsmax 8

http://www.camporota.it/download.html

anthonymcgrath
11-14-2006, 12:57 PM
hi eyerybody
i m working in a production house newly
so we have undertaken a project in which we r animatng a camel with facial expressions
we want to make it look like clay model so is the rigging tecnique different for it or its the same rigging process.
how will i add facial expressions through bones.
we r using configuration 2gb ram, 256 GC .
and basically we r having a small production house so we rnt aware of rendering
they r expecting an output like ice age dvd quality.
pls reply urgently

ohh please ...first post and you stick something like this up? Do you know how hard thousands of ppl around the world work, research and scour through thousands of websites and forum threads (like this one) to find the info they need and you fire this chaff up? "help! do my job! We want cinema-quality cg with no budget, timescale or knowledge of what we're all doing over here in India" unbelievable.
At least some of the other single-number-of-post-members actually bothered to read the thread and then you come along and stick up a "we're doing a camel on this spec pc - someone tell me where the finish-the-job button is".
ivanisavich is totally on the money there, its the same muppet who keeps spamming everyone with that "I've half a million locked away - you can have a share too if you send me your details"
anyway - rant over. on with the subject.

eek sorry about the above in your thread - it just boils my taters and that kind of stuff is all over this site (probably followed up by rants from other users like myself straight after it too!). Do you have any recent images of stuff you've been working on? Early on in the thread theres lots of stuff like this and its good to see :)

ratatat maybe you can limit the number of blendshapes on your ingame characters (like for pursing lips etc..) and work with joints on the rest of the stuff (blinks, cheek motion and the like) :)

kruugs So your creating blendshapes from the higher 'smoothed' versions that you only want to work on their respective smoothed levels?

Dunno what software your using but in maya you might be able to set up a system whereby you'd have your level0 character (unsmoothed) and blendshapeNode0.. then when you up the smooth level to 1 it not only smooths the model it activates the envelope influence of blendshapeNode1 to 100% (or 1) effectively enabling all the blendshapeNode1 blendshapes in the process and allowing them to influence the level1 smoothed character?

Thing is I'm not sure how you could get it to turn off level0 and level2's blendshapes - probably some scripting is needed to do all that.

I'm kinda thinking on me feet here so someone will prob turn around and tell me to shut up hehehe but I think that would work technically

out of interest what would you want this method for? would a set of blendshapes at the level0 not just do the same job? :)

DogBreath
11-15-2006, 07:15 AM
acamporota - nice rig, had a quick look at your setups, there seemed that there was alot of dummys and point objects, the brief time I spent looking there appeared to be 3 dummys and a point for each muscle intersection, one dummy being a handle. Can you tell us abit about how you did this and why you did it this way? The muscle layout seems similar to Paul Neales, which is something I have on my christmas list.

Thanks for sharing, I too have been watching this thread and scouring the web for info, and this is great to see.

acamporota
11-15-2006, 08:41 AM
yes i have learn from paul neale dvd rigging tutorial
i suggest you to buy....
for the muscles bones i have you the strechy bones

I use dummys and a look at constraint on the bones and a position constraint on the end of the stretchy bones to make muscles.

yo

pursuit
12-01-2006, 02:01 PM
hi everybody,
i want to use muscles for the face of my character so i need tutorials or some other kinds of guides about facial muscles, do you have any samples about it??
thanks in advance...

eek
12-10-2006, 03:23 AM
Ive just been reading up on FACs and some about n-space combinations - The math quite frankly is very very hard, not only to implementing it but just the abstraction. Its more akin to matrix transformation and complex geomtric math. But I think im starting to understand it (only took 3 or so months of not thinking) Im trying to understand this method because if broken down into simple terms can be used not only for blend shape type setups but also bone,muscle types too. Many thanks to DPK- this is where most of these ideas are coming from.(the guy's a genius)

So I'll start simply, if we have two targets: A and B and two weights associated with them [1,0] and [0,1]. This is not the usual standard blenshape method weight. Infact the weight is a vector in an n-space. And this n-dimension is comprised by the amount of weights. See its very very complicated to understand. What infact is happening is the regular association of weight to blendshape doesnt exist. But its made to look like it does because generally its a 1 to 1 association i.e you have the same amount of weights as target mesh's.

You have a base i.e neutral, your targets and the weights - for instance 2 targets = 2 weights = ([1,0],[0,1]) also they dont have to be at 1.

So back to our two targets A and B and two weights - this gives us a n-dimension of 2. eg. [0,0] and because we have two targets our association is: ([1,0],[0,1]) now when we combine A and B's weight like so, to give us a vector of: [1,1] we probably get a mess. And this is where the magic of n-space combinations work. We can associate a target to multiple weights. (or i suppose a vector sum of weights in a way)

If we associate a new target to [1,1] we now have a combination shape.

So to reiterate:


We devise an n-space based on the number of weights (e.g the number of sliders) e.g 2n-space. Like a point 2.
We associate a target (i.e blendshape) to a vector in this space eg [0.5,0].
Combination shapes, in the standard sence dont exist. You just associating a target/fix to the combination vector of the weights.
This makes the system amazingly powerful, i mean any slider can be combined with any other, the results in theory wont break. You just have to not think in the standard way of blendshape analogy. This vector thats built from the weights could drive anything - infact a bone or muscle setup.

Whats complicated though is acheive the final delta, something i need to think about. (hopefully not another 3 months) Ive been scribbling of post-its all day!

Edit:

If i can work out the math, i'll try and post my findings (hopefully wont go over your heads)

cheers,

dobermunk
12-10-2006, 09:22 AM
Hi eeks!
Just adding this in case anyone isn't aware of it: my colleagues at the FIlmakademie led by Volker Helzle have worked out the FACS library into a free Maya plug-in. Check it out here: http://research.animationsinstitut.de/

There's also a great overview of the FACS modules and micro-expressions.
They're currently reworking elements to make it more easily edited.

eek
12-10-2006, 05:38 PM
Hi eeks!
Just adding this in case anyone isn't aware of it: my colleagues at the FIlmakademie led by Volker Helzle have worked out the FACS library into a free Maya plug-in. Check it out here: http://research.animationsinstitut.de/

There's also a great overview of the FACS modules and micro-expressions.
They're currently reworking elements to make it more easily edited.


Hi Dobermunk,

Yes I signed up to there site about a year or more ago - its very very interesting stuff. The FACs manual is a stunning peice of research - anyone interested in facial setups should check it out!

cheers,

refract
01-03-2007, 09:36 PM
Hi Dobermunk,

Yes I signed up to there site about a year or more ago - its very very interesting stuff. The FACs manual is a stunning peice of research - anyone interested in facial setups should check it out!

cheers,

I"m actually in the process of converting this over to 3dsmax. Almost there.

eek
01-04-2007, 11:41 AM
I"m actually in the process of converting this over to 3dsmax. Almost there.

Hi Refract,

Kinda same here, not so much software side. Just spent christmas reading papers on morphable dimensional space, vector space, linear algebra, euclidean space etc . Took a while understanding the math behind it - currently i'm working on an algorithm to encompass everything. Also it may have to exist as a plugin as dynamically building an n-space and working the rule based system for combinations on the fly may eat memory via plain scripting applications. Nice thing though is that im thinking in terms of pure math so the idea can be taken across applications.

Fac's is a solid piece of research too - essentially im thinking in terms of non-breakability in any way you rig the face.

cheers,

MatanH
02-10-2007, 09:26 PM
hi eek,
I've been following after this post for quite a while now and I have to congradulate
you man, you've come a real far way, thats amaizing how long it has been and you
dont loose your interest!
by the way what about the tutorial your promising for so long? its only a couple
of hours to write and you've been talking about it for years now.

on the last few days I've been researching the feeld of facial rigging quite allot,
and Ive found your technique the most elegant and interesting.

the thing is I work on Max and I usually work on prodaction with morph targets,
because its simple and doesnt take more then a few howrs to get the work done.
but now I was asked to come up with a quick facial solution for a new project
we're working on, so I think I'll give your technique a try.
I'll be using a simplifide solution since I dont need that kind of quality and I have only
a few days for each face. I'll try to write it as a script that build the rig like in face robot.
Hope to see some more prograss in the future and to finally see that Tut.:bounce:
Matan.

Ac0rN
03-03-2007, 05:15 AM
it must've been 4 years since I first posted on this thread, come on man... make a tutorial already :scream: !

SoulTaker
03-09-2007, 10:18 AM
I"m actually in the process of converting this over to 3dsmax. Almost there.

Hmmm... pretty interesting thread. Say, how much longer do you think it's going to be before your done coverting it over to max? I used to be a Maya guy years ago but moved over to Max and am not comfortable with Maya anymore plus my current project is pretty far into development to switch without having to make adjustments to the pipeline.

Been using morphs for my characters and it's getting to be a pain. I tried out some of the examples that have come out by people on this forum and think they are fantastic. I wish the people that said they are gonna make a tutorial would actually get going and make one. It's been years guys.

I think it's about time someone stepped up to the plate and delivered a possible home run for better facial animation.

ralphgmr
03-13-2007, 01:18 PM
Tutorial! Tutorial! Tutorial! Tutorial! Tutorial! Tutorial! Tutorial! Tut! Tut! Tut! Tut! Tut! Tut!:wip: :wip: :wip: :wip: :wip: :wip: :wip: :wip:

nottoshabi
03-13-2007, 09:31 PM
I have to jump in here on Eeks behalf. Why do you guys keep asking for a tutorial? The tutorial is in the thread. The guy tells you how he did it, why he did it and the resuts. Also shows you videos of how it is supesed to look like. The expressions, of how it works, and his thought process. This is the best tutorial ever. So please stop asking for a tutorial and filling this post with posts asking for a tutorial. Take the time and read the post he tells you how to do it. Let Eek use his time to explore and discover new frontiers, not ways on explaining how to connect nodeA to nodeB.

pooby
03-16-2007, 04:00 PM
Here's test of a rig using some similar techniques.

It's basically a mask that can be adjusted to fit any face and requires very little weighting.
Only the primary controls are ready, and there are missing parts.. It's day 4 of a month long project.

http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/4843652/test2.rar.html (http://s4.quicksharing.com/v/4843652/test2.rar.html)

nottoshabi
03-16-2007, 05:07 PM
Verry sweet how did you get the curves to keep volume and fallow the path? Expecially around the adams apple. What software did you use?And how did you connect them all?

pooby
03-16-2007, 05:23 PM
Thanks,

On the adams apple theres the black curve. One end attached to the jaw, the other to the base.
The middle ot the adams apple curve is constrained to a point half way down the back curve and the envelope nulls jsut slide along with a percentage.

Theres no expressions or any fancy maths business going on. I can't do maths, it's just mechanical. this is where XSI is good. you can just make stuf without thinking about the mathematics.

To retain volume it's just a sort of scaffolding all made out of curves. all of it's visible there in the rig.
Theres quite a bit of hidden stuff on the face. 'Tendons' connecting certain parts to drive other parts - again, made out of curves.

The whole rig is 90% curves and curve constraints. probably about 500 going on. Surprisingly there's no slowdown in XSI on my system.

nottoshabi
03-16-2007, 08:28 PM
Verry nice, in the words of Borat " I liiikke".

mm9271
04-23-2007, 10:11 PM
happy to see you here pooby, here is a link of my face rig, it's also a curves rig but in a strict anatomical approach wich is inspired from the research of paul ekman FACS

Mind in potion

joie
04-24-2007, 07:39 PM
... and the link? ^_^

pooby
05-12-2007, 01:42 PM
Here's a pic of the 'final' -ish version of my rig. I think it's self explanatory what's going on. :D Yeah right.. even I have some difficulty deciphering some of it now. I should have written some notes down instead of making it up as I went along.
Actually, this is half the rig - The XSI half. the other half is a displacement rig that's applied in lightwave.

dobermunk
05-12-2007, 02:38 PM
Okay, now I'm intrigued.
rig/animate in xsi - displace/render in LW...
transfer via PointOven?

The rig looks... err... complicated. Knowing your work though, I'm sure the results are fantastic...
Can you post some of the animation done with this?

pooby
05-12-2007, 02:57 PM
Thanks, thats a nice thing to say!

The rig is very complicated, but there is nothing in there thats hard to understand or to do.
I plan to finish the animation in a couple of weeks or so.
The underlying curve rig is supplemented by morphs to do what the rig cant quite achieve on it's own.. (although next time I think I can make one that can eliminate the morphs altogether.)
As for the displacement thing, XSI exports all the point oven data, then LW reads it and updates automatically, so no re-loading. I bake, then switch to LW and its there already.
This goes for the mdd files and also Null positions which drive the displacements at the right time and also some postional data for where they are applied.
I was going to do it all in XSI, but the results of the new skin shader in LW are the best I've seen. Also it means I can use Fprime which allows me to see the displacements 'live' on the render.

deana
06-15-2007, 06:59 AM
Hello, all!

I've got a bones rig for facial animation with 50-up-to-60 bones driving the skinned mesh. Face mesh is about 7500 polygons.
I'd like to make creases in cheek-mouth and brows-nose regions. How many polygons in the face do I need and are there any secrets in performing them with bones animation?
My apps are 3Dmax-MotionBuilder.

Regards :)

PEN
06-15-2007, 12:25 PM
Hello, all!

I've got a bones rig for facial animation with 50-up-to-60 bones driving the skinned mesh. Face mesh is about 7500 polygons.
I'd like to make creases in cheek-mouth and brows-nose regions. How many polygons in the face do I need and are there any secrets in performing them with bones animation?
My apps are 3Dmax-MotionBuilder.

Regards :)

The amount of polies in the face isn't the problem is it the placement of the edge loops that will determine if you are able to get the creases that you are looking for. There is no replacement for a well structured model.

Doing this sort of set up with bones can take alot of bones. Another option is to mix in some morph targets if this is allowed in your pipeline. Just wire in the crease targets to the nesesary controls for the face.

eek
06-15-2007, 02:50 PM
Hello, all!

I've got a bones rig for facial animation with 50-up-to-60 bones driving the skinned mesh. Face mesh is about 7500 polygons.
I'd like to make creases in cheek-mouth and brows-nose regions. How many polygons in the face do I need and are there any secrets in performing them with bones animation?
My apps are 3Dmax-MotionBuilder.

Regards :)

what about driving wrinkle maps? Jason Osipa shows this, you could drive bump or normal maps from the value of the bone poses.

jason108
08-04-2007, 07:54 AM
great stuff. Can't wait until maya version.

There's some many ways to do a face setup yeah?

I haven't been rigging very long so this type of experience presented in a clear way is very helpful. I don't think I want to use blend shapes anymore. Seems so limiting and mechanical. Your setup eek is exciting. I'm big on Squash and Stretch, pushing expressions to the extreme. I come from a 2d back ground and so I'm not use to having limitations on anything. 3d is getting less limiting the more I learn. I use wires alot because there are very free. Using CV curves on the face makes alot of sense to me.

http://www.highend3d.com/maya/tutorials/character/Facial-Animation-Rig-for-Delgo-276.html

this tutorial uses cv curves as influence objects for the face.

thanks
Jason

calebros
10-09-2007, 06:45 PM
Hey,

So I just started a new job, and they want me to trouble shoot a rig that is having a double transform problem on the face. I think they used the rig from the tutorial jason mentioned.

http://www.highend3d.com/maya/tutorials/character/276-1.html

I followed the tutorial and everything worked ok for me, but I can not figure out what is wrong with the one that is already rigged. The problem is essentially a double transformation on the face. So that when I rotate the head the area affected by this rig double transforms, but the rig itself stays where it should.

I know I have seen this problem before, but for the life of me I can't fix it. I want to say it is something to do with the base curve? I unparented them, but that did not fix it.

Any Ideas?

Thanks a ton,

Steve

nottoshabi
10-09-2007, 07:21 PM
Yeah I rember runing in the same problem before. When doing that type of face rig. It could be one of trhee things. Where the curves are parented, if the clusters have the transform turned on or off, and if the cuves have theyr transformed on or of.


I sugest breaking everything apart then parenting them in groups. Like Eybrow cluster groups. The curves that hold the clusters can not be parented on the same joints as the clusters. As a matter of fact the curves have to be parented on a stationarry control one that does not rotate, from what I remember. Cause the clusters move the curves now. Then try rotating the face if your still getting double ransforations mess with the clusters transfoms. Thats how I remember fixing it. Once I puled the curves out of the hierarchy and messed with the clusters I got it to work.

Good luck.......

calebros
10-16-2007, 12:19 PM
Hey, Thanks for the advice. I am still having some problems which I think is due to version change. The face rig was created in Maya 7.0 and we are trying to move it to Maya 8.5, could this be the source of the problem? Sorry I didn't mention it earlier.

Thanks again for the advice.

-Steve

nottoshabi
10-16-2007, 06:26 PM
I can't say, usually constraints get messed up. They might not work or work backwords as for double transforms I dont think so. You should be able to figure that out when you pull the face apart. If nodes are not prented to anything you should be ble to see if constraints are not working.

calebros
10-23-2007, 02:44 PM
After some more playing with the rig, I found that the old version I have imports properly into maya 8.5 , 64 bit, but not into maya 8.5, 32 bit. Odd huh? Thanks again for the advice and help.

calebros
10-25-2007, 03:01 PM
So, incase anyone is interested, we figured out the problem with some help from the guys at autodesk. Turns out that there is a service pack one for maya 8.5 that was not installed on some of the machines (the 32 bit ones) and it was on the 64 bit ones. So once we installed that everything worked fine. Thanks for all your help again.

pooby
11-30-2007, 01:19 PM
Heres a new technique for facial rigging. It takes a Nurbs surface skinned on a bone rig and morphs as it's base and via constraints, feeds into curves.
The mesh is skinned to Nulls constrained to the curves, and the amount of stretch between areas are measured, and these measurements are driving additional morphs and smoothing operations.
Its not complete, (just look at that UI) but gives a decent idea.
Next step is to add more assymetry control and also dynamic face-jiggling reaction.

http://www.bestsharing.com/files/5TSb6374008/imprig.rar.html (http://www.bestsharing.com/files/5TSb6374008/imprig.rar.html)

pooby
11-30-2007, 01:25 PM
double post.. whoops

pooby
11-30-2007, 01:30 PM
triplepost, sorry

eek
11-30-2007, 07:44 PM
Nice man!

How do you design the initial nurbs surface? and its morphs? - i like the idea but im wondering whether you'd always find areas with the face breaks, and an an inevitably have to add new 'corrective' shapes.



Essentially in my research hit that problem, until i found out about correctives i didnt know what to do. I think the issue with corrective is not that you have to make them, but the process of making them seems convuluted and complex. I.e to make a combination of pucker and smile you generate and oddball mesh - but it produces the right result.

The other thing that scares people is the amount of shapes - essentially thats wrong. Theres around 10 mouth poses and of them 6 need to have correctives. Its around 60 shapes - but if the process of making them can be streamlined then it makes the system very efficient. ( this isnt left or right with that it makes about 30 key shapes including the brow) And about 120-140 correctives.

pooby
11-30-2007, 08:00 PM
I just shaped it based on the path i want the anchors for the curves to travel along. It pretty much worked first time and since I've rigorously tested it and it doesnt break.

a nice thing about the nurbs is being able to sculpt big moves with them such as smiles that filter down to the detailed controls and will shift them about with the movement of the mass but wont corrupt any extra keyframed sculpting on those details.

I have an idea for a version discarding most of the curves and just having 2 layers of nurbs with the mesh on top. the thing nurbs have over over curves is that they are (more easily) morphable, and you can get both U and V 'sliding' on the constrained nulls.

(I havent made any correctives. It shouldnt really need any, but it does have a couple of smoothing operators that do things like relax the wrinkling on the cheeks when stretched.)

eek
12-01-2007, 06:33 PM
I think half the battle with a facial system too is the aproach to iteration - I've started looking into corrective morphs and an aproach to build them. The problems comes in that, our faces werent designed to show the combination of every muscle group in isolation - therefore we need a way to generate the 'achieved target' for the corrective to build off of. Your idea of measuring stuff gave me an idea as to how to build the corrective, using essentially the tention of the face.

All theoretical atm - but slowly formulating a basis in my notebook.

pooby
12-01-2007, 06:56 PM
Yes, having the measurements means you can have a lot of stuff thats driven automatically and realistically once set up. The info gained from the measurements can be applied at any level, (apart from where it would create a loop) from the nurbs surface through curves to mesh morphs and even displacements.

For example, I measure the distance between vertices on the lips and these are linked to the opacity of lip displacement maps, so, when the lips are in an OO shape, they are wrinkled and when they are smiling, the lips are smooth and stretched.
I dont have to think about this once set up, it just works.

another thing that i'm looking into is having certain morphs come up depending on the direction of travel. ie, having the cheek tense differently when going into a smile than when it relaxes back in the other direction.
I think this will eliminate a lot of the 'rubbery' feeling that can happen.

pooby
12-04-2007, 05:05 PM
I made a facial capture system and linked my rig up to it today. This is still a bit rough and ready, but demonstrates a good starting point. It's all overridable and keying-on-toppable.

http://www.bestsharing.com/files/IhSEru376342/facecapture.mov.html (http://www.bestsharing.com/files/IhSEru376342/facecapture.mov.html)

eek
12-04-2007, 08:21 PM
Nice Man! - I really need to start looking at face rigs again. I do like the idea of controls riding a surface. Im thinking also to not having curves, i dunno. I think the key to it all is trying to defeat the mesh breaking, and if this works im all for it.


Need to write some notes.

eek
12-04-2007, 08:51 PM
Hmm... im thinking now why i kinda stopped doing research in my muscle stuff, I think the reason was because of surface contact i.e keeping form, but maybe this might help. More notes...

DogBreath
12-05-2007, 05:54 AM
Yeah! I like the results you have from your capture system.The curves you have attached the nulls to, that you refer to are nurbs curves are they? Someone posted a rig a while ago that was nulls (or points in Max) driven along splines, that followed the line of the muscles, and/or the curve of the face, is that similar to what you have done here?

Can you tell us a bit about the capture system that you made. Is it a method we can use.

eek
12-05-2007, 01:34 PM
Yeah! I like the results you have from your capture system.The curves you have attached the nulls to, that you refer to are nurbs curves are they? Someone posted a rig a while ago that was nulls (or points in Max) driven along splines, that followed the line of the muscles, and/or the curve of the face, is that similar to what you have done here?


That was me!

The part I like about this system is not really the morph side, but just hit detection over a surface like a jaw/brow for example. Using curves or the math of curves for muscles is relatively easy, with support for sliding just comes in for free. The problem I had was that you could essentially crush the face in on itself - especially the mouth if you were not careful.

The capture system i dont think is a pure capture unless your doing image tracking or something. I was thinking about writting one in max - and it wouldnt be too hard. Just trace a bitmap till it hits a specific color and drive a point, which inturn drives a control.

pooby
12-06-2007, 08:23 AM
The capture system i dont think is a pure capture unless your doing image tracking or something. No it doesn't automatically track the image. Its pretty straightforward to make it do that in XSI, but linking the nulls X and Y to the output of the tracker markers in the built in compositor. I have done this before and it works fine, but I'm not going to do it here until the rig is final.

Can you tell us a bit about the capture system that you made. Is it a method we can use.
The facial 'capture' system is technically pretty easy to build, it just requires some careful thought about whats going on with the face. I only invented it last week so it's still in its infancy, I have made a few tests, each one far superior to the last but once I have perfected it I may well make a tutorial.
I also have a version that can animate, quite convincingly, the angle of the head based on the footage but I didn't add it to this version, as his head and body is animated using a mo-cap / keying combo.

DogBreath
12-07-2007, 06:26 AM
Nice, I'm wondering what speech will be like with it. Will it sync up with an audio track in a clip similar to the one you have already shared.

It would be extremely cool to watch your progress, that would be a whole new tutorial experience for many, watching your idea evolve into whatever its going to become.

At the risk of asking for more than you are comfortable sharing, please show us more.

pooby
12-09-2007, 09:42 AM
Nice, I'm wondering what speech will be like with it. Will it sync up with an audio track in a clip similar to the one you have already shared.


I hope so, although I'm not going to use the raw capture, In this version It's really just going to be a tool for blocking out and I'll refine it with keyframing.

eek
12-11-2007, 02:33 AM
Some interesting tech - i think were all trying to aim for the same sort of setup...

http://www.faceinmotion.com/events/SIGGRAPH07/FIM_SIGGRAPH07_presentation.pdf

Ruramuq
12-11-2007, 06:10 PM
The skinning(painting weights), I've been thinking for long time, how inconvenient they are; if the rig allows enough control it would be much better to not depend on vertex weights.
Then it all is a matter of adapting the same rig to another character and applying the relative differences(including envelopes).

Another thing I ask myself is how expensive would be to use some kind of collision detection for skin sliding ? because, realistic faces are the most difficult to make, contrary to toon characters.
A big challenge, is to try a dense and realistic mesh with a rig or any other technological system, it will easily reveal whats wrong, and how far we are.

··

TBart
02-17-2008, 05:21 AM
I just wanted to say that I've read a large part of this thread, and it has helped me a lot in starting to rig my first face. I followed the way Pooby made his rig and I have to say it's FUN. I've only done the eyebrows so far, just to see how it works, but I can create CRAZY shapes super fast with it. This is the first real facial rig I've made, so I can't compare it to others, and I'm not even sure if it's exactly how Pooby made his, but it works really well. Did I mention that it's fun? I just spent the last 2 hours playing with eyebrows :love::D

John-Bellamy
02-28-2008, 05:04 PM
hi guys, i am wondering if anyone out there knows any good books or online tutorials for getting a face rig setup where u have a set of spline boxes representing the face next to the character and then by manipulating sliders and the like u can produce a whole range of expressions? GUI setup i think its called. It seems to be a fairly standard way of rigging a face to get some nice results but i cant for the life of me find any decent tutorial material on it. Really desperate to learn how to do it though. As far as i know it works off clusters i think. Anythin for the main 3 (XSI/Maya/Max) wud be cool. thanks

ErikE
02-28-2008, 07:27 PM
hi guys, i am wondering if anyone out there knows any good books or online tutorials for getting a face rig setup where u have a set of spline boxes representing the face next to the character and then by manipulating sliders and the like u can produce a whole range of expressions? GUI setup i think its called. It seems to be a fairly standard way of rigging a face to get some nice results but i cant for the life of me find any decent tutorial material on it. Really desperate to learn how to do it though. As far as i know it works off clusters i think. Anythin for the main 3 (XSI/Maya/Max) wud be cool. thanks

Tyson Ibele has a basic GUI setup tutorial on his site.

http://www.tysonibele.com/Main/main.htm

John-Bellamy
02-28-2008, 11:22 PM
Thanks ErikE thats pretty good for startin with :)

nottoshabi
02-29-2008, 01:19 AM
Does anyone have or remember a way to mirror clusters for a face rig? I'm sorry if this question has allready been answered. I'm using the dwSaveClusters.mel, wich was not built for mirroring clusters and its quite a pain in the but.

rybeck
03-02-2008, 01:00 AM
hi guys, i am wondering if anyone out there knows any good books or online tutorials for getting a face rig setup where u have a set of spline boxes representing the face next to the character and then by manipulating sliders and the like u can produce a whole range of expressions? GUI setup i think its called. It seems to be a fairly standard way of rigging a face to get some nice results but i cant for the life of me find any decent tutorial material on it. Really desperate to learn how to do it though. As far as i know it works off clusters i think. Anythin for the main 3 (XSI/Maya/Max) wud be cool. thanks


Here is another link for 3dsMax oriented tutorial.
http://lounge.ego-farms.com/index.php

Need to register first (Free~) to download tutorials.
Go to 'Rigging' section for check out what you may be interested in.

John-Bellamy
03-02-2008, 12:53 PM
Thanks rybeck. Thats a pretty awesome website, never heard of it though till now.

mohanohi
04-23-2008, 04:17 PM
eek.. could you make entire vid tut about this face rig thing.. you were expert in creating this type of face rig system.. But some of steps could'nt be followed as an newbie for this type of system. I am using 3dsmax...

mhdmhd
04-24-2008, 08:58 PM
Yes please as mohanohi said
I tried morphs and bones but I like your idea better .
Did you trysome sort of mesh collison (as in skinfx) ?
Did you see "Facemachine" for maya ?

DogBreath
04-24-2008, 10:46 PM
Have a look at this 3dsmax video by Loius Marcoux, on how to build a muscle. If you follow this tutorial to the end, you will end up with a stretchy bone that can be used as a facial muscle.
If you leave out the modelling of the muscle then you will have a stetchy bone suitable for skinning to a rig.

http://www.louismarcoux.com/Videos/MuscleObjects.wmv

Then you need to create enough of these for a face, and to link them together as a rig with controls.

Enrico Gullotti's 3dsmax2009 script which will do this for you and a page briefly showing you how and why it is done, can be found here.

http://www.illusioncatalyst.com/ic_face_ref.html

The 3dsmax2009 script can be downloaded for free from Enrico Gullotti's site.

When you download the script and run it, there is a discussion on that here if you need help.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=59&t=622130

unhurdof1
05-02-2008, 07:27 PM
...Enrico Gullotti's 3dsmax2009 script which will do this for you and a page briefly showing you how and why it is done, can be found here.

http://www.illusioncatalyst.com/ic_face_ref.html

The 3dsmax2009 script can be downloaded for free from Enrico Gullotti's site.

When you download the script and run it, there is a discussion on that here if you need help.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=59&t=622130


Illusion Catalyst's scripts/plugins are awesome. I haven't used them yet, but I've been reading about them a bit, and wow, who develops stuff like that for free anymore? Kudos Enrico Gullotti, thank you.
:bowdown:


Here is another link for 3dsMax oriented tutorial.
http://lounge.ego-farms.com/index.php

Need to register first (Free~) to download tutorials.
Go to 'Rigging' section for check out what you may be interested in.


Ego-Farms is a small forum for 3D Studio Max users created by Eric Maslowski. (All other modeling software users are welcome as well, as many principles are platform independent) Eric has created hours of free video tutorials too as Rybeck pointed out. We have started a thread there collecting facial rigging resources and tutorials for 3DS. It's about the 4th post down. Check it out here :

EGo-Farms.com (http://lounge.ego-farms.com/showthread.php?t=1442)

mohanohi
05-03-2008, 05:04 PM
hmm.. these tutorials and plugins I think is not concerned to what facial rigging style is all about. I mean the tutorial was only about bulge rig.. I needed this style of facial rigging tutorial.. pls.. if anyone could..

DogBreath
05-03-2008, 08:11 PM
Is this what you are trying to do?

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=260019

If so I refer to my earlier post, you have to work out the rest. If that is no help then go here.

http://cg-academy.net/pages/topic_rigging/dvds_rigging_intermediate_4/dvds_rigging_intermediate_4.php

DogBreath
05-05-2008, 08:32 AM
I am having some problems with getting vertices to deform in the manner in which they have been laid out. I have set the vertices up so that edge loops go around the mouth, however when they are applied to the bones in the facial rig they are distorted for some reason.

I hope the attached image shows what I'm refering too, can anyone help.

I have tried to set up the skin to deform while the mouth opens and closes and have achieved a workable setup and I have set up the skin to deform for a mouth wide and bottom lip down, but I can not get all of those expressions.

I'm wondering if the layout of the loops is just too rough or is that the layout is just too detailed (too many poly's round the lip area).

I'll leave it at that at the moment and answer any questions that may clarify the situation later.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9328/vertexassignprobimage1xz0.jpg

PEN
07-21-2008, 12:15 PM
DogBreath, this is just due to poor skinning, you will need to adjust the skinning using blend weights or just more paint weights to get what you are looking for. Since this bone layout looks a whole lot like what I did in my forth DVD have a look at the ogre character, turn on skin and select some of the joints around the mouth and you can see how the skinning looks. Compare that to what you have.

DogBreath
07-24-2008, 08:17 AM
Thanks Paul, you are right, I tightened up the weight of the other verts and got a more acurate mouth shape, however I'm still not happy with it. I did the weights manually because the paint weight tool would not work (not sure why). I think I need to do this with a simpler model to learn this and then progress from there.

I do have one other question if you don't mind. Does the size (in max units) make any difference to the results of these procedures, the head I have been using is 85 units tall?

PEN
07-24-2008, 11:54 AM
Thanks Paul, you are right, I tightened up the weight of the other verts and got a more acurate mouth shape, however I'm still not happy with it. I did the weights manually because the paint weight tool would not work (not sure why). I think I need to do this with a simpler model to learn this and then progress from there.

I do have one other question if you don't mind. Does the size (in max units) make any difference to the results of these procedures, the head I have been using is 85 units tall?

Size should not affect what you are doing but if you have scaled it it will cause major problems. Make sure that you use the reset X forms tool in the tools panel to correct this. The over all scale of the character does mater in the larger scale of things how ever. There is a limit to the 3D universe and as you get further from the center acuracy drops. Also if you go to run sims like cloth the values will all be out of wack. Your whole character should be around 85 units tall for a normal human type.

mobelea
08-22-2008, 07:35 PM
Hi,

During my upcoming 2nd year at University I'll have limited access to an optical motion capture studio. I'm hoping to learn how to set up a facial rig to apply motion capture, but only have experience with modelling, rigging and keyframe animation on bipeds and am unsure where to start. I'll be using XSI and Motion Builder and it would be a massive help if someone could give me an idea of the process I need to be looking into.

Will I need to create a rig for the head I've modelled in XSI and import it to Motion Builder or am I able to import the model immediately and create a rig in Motion Builder?

Is there a best method of creating facial rigs for use with motion capture data?

I've managed to get some sample mocap data from my uni in .trc format and have imported that into MB, but so far haven't been able to work out how to solve it to the XSI sample rigged head that I'm currently using to experiment.

I realise I'm out of my depth here, but I have plenty of time to work on this and am really hoping I can do it! Any advice at all would be much appreciated.

mec6288
09-26-2008, 03:55 PM
Any one have suggestions for animating the jaw? I have linked my teeth and gums to a dummy which is has its rotation wired to a morph target of the face. This method is working, however I cannot key the value of the morph target. I am able to animate all other target except the one that is wired to the jaw. I have another thread with pictures.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=54&t=679067

ramiro3d
01-23-2009, 05:51 PM
Hi Ekk, congratulations!, you did a really great work!. I wonder if there is a max file to see, how it is made, most of links of this thread are dead because they seem to be very old. IŽd really appreciate if you could upload some example of your facial system. It reminds me to the end credits of The Pixar Story and some Stuff on DVD extras from The Incredibles, really great man!.

How do you recreate a Path constraint with expression controllers?, how do you make an object to follow a spline? Thank you for sharing man!

sonyboy
03-01-2009, 10:38 PM
the facial animation rigging is so complicated.I know 2 kinds of way to do that .one is using the morpher systems and the other is the bones.i prefer the latter.but the problem is when i study the latter way of rigging i find it's needs a lot of max scripts.and the version9 of the max i use is different from the version7 of the max the tutors use.so there are some tiny difference between the 2 version of max in their setting tools.That's made me upset.Any one can give me a simply and high effectively way of making the facial aniamtion?thanks a lot!

dobermunk
03-02-2009, 09:42 AM
morph, bone and subsets of these types of usage that are so integrally different that they warrant their own classification....

namely:

- bones driving the mesh directly via internal chains,
- bones driving the mesh via their constraint to curves
- bones driving the mesh via a FACS based array on the exterior surface, like a mask

An example of the last one is here: http://research.animationsinstitut.de/16.0.html

Each bring advantages and disadvantages, and there are many hybrids, also with morphs and curve solutions.

cssmaya
04-19-2009, 10:14 AM
hello all
i'm developing a new facial system for maya
u can find the pictures and idea behind it here:
www.againstanother.com (http://www.againstanother.com)
and it's steel under development
if you have idea please email me at ali@cgfx3d.com
thanks

sergicaballer
09-07-2009, 11:49 PM
Hi everybody!
First of all, this is a copy of my thread about facialRigging I've started here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=54&t=804093).

Some time ago I started a research about facial rigging based on bones to apply to my japanese model, and at the same time, to try to develop a autorig version of the rig.
Now I've finished my investigations about mixing facial bone system & stickyLips. My starting point was to try to make another approach to classical stickyLip system where the effect only affects to line between the two lips.
With my approach, if the stickiness is on, the movement of the upper lip affects to lower lip and viceversa.

http://www.sergicaballer.com/imagenesForos/rigging/sergicaballer_stickyLipsTest_01.jpg

StickyLipsTest (http://vimeo.com/6458920) on Vimeo.

C&C are wellcome!

LadyWraith
10-05-2009, 08:21 AM
Hi guys Im new to Xsi and Im trying to create a facial rig using clusters. can anyone please post some links for to tutorials to do this or advise how i can go about making this in Xsi.


Thanks in advance for your help



LadyWraith:buttrock:

eek
01-25-2010, 02:09 PM
CSS Maya,

Are you using any sort of corrective blendshapes or weight space - intrigued by your system.

eto80
03-02-2010, 05:08 AM
well, hi everybody and sorry in advance for my english

Im trying to attach the 3 hairs of the eyebrow to the mesh so they move together, but the mesh move with blend shape and for some reason I don t get do not get attach, I already try with cluster

ah, Im using maya, here is a pic with the area encircle

bichito.jpg (http://forums.cgsociety.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=151194&stc=1)

eto80
03-09-2010, 02:49 AM
ok, problem solved, thanks anyway to anyone interested in answer the question

cssmaya
03-16-2010, 04:22 PM
CSS Maya,

Are you using any sort of corrective blendshapes or weight space - intrigued by your system.

Hi eek
well, first visit HERE (http://cgfx3d.com/?page_id=3) and download my curveAnim MEL script.
The idea was to develop a system like yours in maya. I had done this by creating several curves on mesh, then choosing them by script and creating a duplicate of them. two more curves will be created by script one in spherical and one in cubic shape. the sphere will be parented under the cube. your original curve on mesh and it's duplicate will be geometry constraints for these two shapes. now if you want you can create slide based GUI and use the cube to set driven key the place, and on top of it , animator has the ability to animate the spherical shape by hand on top of set driven key.
now , this can be done on a copy mesh of your face, and this can be one of blend targets that is weight 1 always, this way you can combine this method on top of blendshapes to break the linear deformation of blend node :D
but still I'm waiting for your Maya version of your method to be finalized :D

narutaki
03-30-2010, 10:40 PM
can anyone show me how to do facial animation and riggin in max?

hotknife
04-16-2010, 09:02 AM
can anyone show me how to do facial animation and riggin in max?

Check out Paul Neals facial animation DVD on cg academy, well worth the money.

https://www.cg-academy.net/es_catalog/index.php?cPath=22&osCsid=s4jg1pn77lpajq1h1npnofmrtu3sa4r0

giovonti
06-02-2010, 09:53 PM
Hi all, I'm hoping that someone could point me in the right direction.

I'm primarily an animator and a novice rigger. I've been searching for days it seems to fine what I'm looking for but my apologies if I've missed it in this thread. I'm trying to learn how to do a good joint based facial rig in maya, that's only joints no blendshapes and everything skinned to bones. The sort of rig used for many game engines. Does anyone know where I can look for either a good tutorial or a good dvd or book to purchase?

Thanks in advance!

Kaleidoscope
07-30-2010, 09:22 PM
Hi all, I'm hoping that someone could point me in the right direction.

I'm primarily an animator and a novice rigger. I've been searching for days it seems to fine what I'm looking for but my apologies if I've missed it in this thread. I'm trying to learn how to do a good joint based facial rig in maya, that's only joints no blendshapes and everything skinned to bones. The sort of rig used for many game engines. Does anyone know where I can look for either a good tutorial or a good dvd or book to purchase?

Thanks in advance!

I'm also very interested in that, I just finished Jason Osipas book "Stop Staring" which is heavily based on blendshapes.
So now, naturally I'm interested in learning a new technique, and the joint-based facial system seems very cool and fun.

TheGrak
09-03-2010, 08:27 PM
I wrote a script so I could have a fun environment to play around with rigging faces using stretchy bones. I hope some Maxers find it useful. And it's free.

More info: here (http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=6&t=914485)

*I'm still developing the script, so feel free to send me ideas and suggestions on how to make it better.

andyLP
10-14-2010, 06:03 AM
Hey all.
I think facial rigs should able to create a wide range of expression quickly. I've found a joint based solution to be the best for this.
You can see my joint-based facial rig here:
http://www.andy-van-straten.com/riggingReel.html

There is a break down just afterward so you can see a bit of whats going on.

Cheers,
Andy

nottoshabi
10-14-2010, 06:48 AM
Great stuff Andy. On the lip joints, are they connected by a curve or straight constraints? It looked like you had distance attribute in there to? I like the forehead wrinkles and the corners of the lip the way they curved in a little. Was the lip corner a blndShape as well?

DanHaffner
10-14-2010, 07:12 AM
Awesome stuff Andy, but I had to skip a lot of stuff cause the camera movements was way too jerky for me.

andyLP
10-14-2010, 07:40 AM
nottoshabi: Thanks! The forehead wrinkles are the only blendshapes.
The rest is all weight painting!
The only constraints are aim constraints. And to control the positions.. if you have 3 Locators A, B and C, and you want C to slide between point A and B, you can use this formula C = A + k(B-A) where k is a value between 0 and 1. Easily done with multiplyDivide and plusMinusAverage, though you could create a node to do the math for you.

Dan: sorry about the cam moves.. I sent a bunch of reels out today too! oops

You guys have great reels, thanks for your feeback.

nottoshabi
10-14-2010, 07:58 AM
And to control the positions.. if you have 3 Locators A, B and C, and you want C to slide between point A and B, you can use this formula C = A + k(B-A) where k is a value between 0 and 1. Easily done with multiplyDivide and plusMinusAverage.



Can you explain this a little.

eek
10-14-2010, 01:49 PM
Can you explain this a little.

It sounds just like linear interpolation.

(1-t) * A + B * t

DanHaffner
10-14-2010, 05:26 PM
Why not just put a point constraint on C that is constrained between A and B so it will always be in the middle, and then you can can just change the weight of the constraints to make it move between them?

andyLP
10-15-2010, 10:51 PM
Why not just put a point constraint on C that is constrained between A and B so it will always be in the middle, and then you can can just change the weight of the constraints to make it move between them?

I've been advised that constraints are slow when you have many.
Plus I'm reusing some of the information from that node setup
You could use a point constraint I'm sure. There are many ways to skin a cat. Especially a 3D cat.

andyLP
10-15-2010, 11:01 PM
I see you can actually plug the output of a multiplyDivide (for instance) as a target object of a pointConstraint. I could have also used a blendColors. Always learning :)

elenat
11-09-2010, 04:24 PM
miss post :banghead:

DanHaffner
11-09-2010, 04:34 PM
I liked it. Very simple and you got awesome results with it.

Pietas
11-09-2010, 04:49 PM
Going a bit different with my setup compared to what I have seen in this thread. Just love blendshapes. Gives me a lot of control. So the setup is jaw and rotate joint in the base, then blendshapes, then joints on top again. lip roll is also added, but not in the video.
Think it is a good setup, though I haven't played with it yet. Anyone have any experience with something similar? (Only mouth shapes in this demo)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Pietaz?feature=mhum#p/u/1/69L0Bm7iJpM

Kaleidoscope
11-24-2010, 09:38 AM
Going a bit different with my setup compared to what I have seen in this thread. Just love blendshapes. Gives me a lot of control. So the setup is jaw and rotate joint in the base, then blendshapes, then joints on top again. lip roll is also added, but not in the video.
Think it is a good setup, though I haven't played with it yet. Anyone have any experience with something similar? (Only mouth shapes in this demo)
http://www.youtube.com/user/Pietaz?feature=mhum#p/u/1/69L0Bm7iJpM

I love that setup, simple but it seems really powerful!
This might be to big of a question, but how do you get the joints to ride along with the blendshapes? Rivets?

Thanks, and great work! :D

Pietas
11-24-2010, 11:42 AM
This might be to big of a question, but how do you get the joints to ride along with the blendshapes? Rivets?

Yes, I used rivets. but you need two meshes. one that have the rivets blendshaped in to another mesh that have the joints around the mouth. Or else you will get a cycle....
Not the best explanation :/

Have a update here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz9620TTlOs

Kaleidoscope
11-24-2010, 12:09 PM
Yes, I used rivets. but you need two meshes. one that have the rivets blendshaped in to another mesh that have the joints around the mouth. Or else you will get a cycle....
Not the best explanation :/

Have a update here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz9620TTlOs

I see.. But with the way I would do it, I think I would get double transformations. I made a picture to make it easier to understand what I mean.
http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/Clockswork/blndShpRivetsnJoints.jpg

everyFrame
02-25-2011, 04:55 PM
I just thought I'd share a quick deformation test of a joint based face rig i've been working on lately. I added just a few shapes to get the "S" curve on the eyelids, and the "OOO" shape for the mouth. hope you enjoi

http://www.youtube.com/user/everyframe?feature=mhum

MDuffy
02-25-2011, 05:16 PM
I see.. But with the way I would do it, I think I would get double transformations.


Sorry for the necro-reply, but I missed your post when it was originally posted. You won't get double transformations if you use a deformer which calculates based on a relative position. In Maya, you can use a cluster in relative mode to do this. Then you parent the cluster to the null that is riveted to the mesh, and the cluster will only transform the second mesh relative to its parent's position.

Other apps likely have something similar. Just search the docs for something that works in a "relative" mode.

Cheers,
Michael

Deje3D
05-18-2011, 02:32 PM
Kaleidoscope:
I agree. But if you use joints you can make presets for stuff like "smile" or "sad" where the joints would repositiong themselves into the pose "smile". Ontop of that you can add blendshapes that enhance rinkles and stuff, because those are hard to get wth joint only.

I did a tutorial some weeks ago where I look into a joint based facial rig.

it might be interesting for your guys to check out:

http://poly-face.com/Maya_Tutorial_Facial_Rigging_part_1

andyLP
06-30-2011, 11:05 AM
Hey everyone,

Thought some of you might be interested in checking out my latest facial set up.
Its a network of joints that follow the basic contours of the face + pose space deformation to enhance the expressions.

http://www.vimeo.com/23310624

Cheers!
Andy

nottoshabi
06-30-2011, 08:00 PM
Man that is a lot of weight painting. Lol. I have a couple of questions: On the lip roll did you use a spline, constraints or nodes to get the lips to roll like that? When moving the eye ball around the top eye lid tucks in on its self, was that just some fancy skiining or a deformer to help out? On the eye brows to get wrinkles in at different controlers, did you create a blendShape for every stage or are using map and just animating the map depending on the position of the controler?

That is really good stuff Andy.

andyLP
07-01-2011, 09:23 PM
Man that is a lot of weight painting. Lol. I have a couple of questions: On the lip roll did you use a spline, constraints or nodes to get the lips to roll like that? When moving the eye ball around the top eye lid tucks in on its self, was that just some fancy skiining or a deformer to help out? On the eye brows to get wrinkles in at different controlers, did you create a blendShape for every stage or are using map and just animating the map depending on the position of the controler?

That is really good stuff Andy.

Haha.. so much weight painting. I think I burned thru a full wacom nib just on this guy.
What I really wanted, was to wrap the hi-res mesh to a low-res one, and build my PSD shapes from the wrapped hi-res mesh. But I haven't found a tool that does that, and I'm not a good enough programmer to write something like that (yet!)

The lips have about 16 joints each. All the joints aim at each other via something similar to Aaron holly's aim constraint locator hierarchy that he uses for the ribbon set up.
All I've done to get the lip roll happening is connected the .rx of the lip control to the .rx of all the lip joints. I might have multiplyDivides in between to have a 'falloff' towards the corners of the mouth.

For the eyebrows, I just sculpted up the final shape and used my tool to connect it all together.
There is a vid showing this technique on my vimeo page. Though it has my voice commentary (apologies!!)

Thanks for the feedback mate, much appreciated.

Laa-Yosh
07-01-2011, 10:12 PM
To be honest, I don't get the logic here, especially as you're using manual sculpting for the final expressions anyway. I personally always get frustrated with weight painting when there's always the blendshape option to get each and every vertex into the exact position I want them to be...

andyLP
07-01-2011, 10:22 PM
To be honest, I don't get the logic here, especially as you're using manual sculpting for the final expressions anyway. I personally always get frustrated with weight painting when there's always the blendshape option to get each and every vertex into the exact position I want them to be...

You could potentially transfer some of the weight painting to other characters.
More range of shapes with less work. There's only about 25 shapes sculpted for that character.
More freedom for the animators - they're not bound to sliders, and can push shapes 'further' if needed. Also the animators could move the controllers non-linear way between the shapes if they desired.

You really don't think there's any merit in this at all?

nottoshabi
07-01-2011, 10:30 PM
p { margin-bottom: 0.08in; } Because of the weight painting is why I stay away from facial bone rigs. I prefer to use blends and wires as a mix and add some bones where needed. The jaw, eyes and cheeks, some times. But you did a very good job with the system you used. How did you get the joints to fallow the controller, in a way that was not linear? I ran into that problem a while back as constraints work great to get things to fallow but for faces since the face is more of a curve then a straight line, things did not fallow accordingly I had to use nulls for offsets to get a nice curve in the fall off. Never the less it turned extremely complicated and did not look as good as blends do. You seemed to pull it off tho.

As for the lips, I have not used that system in a while hooking up all those dived notes drove me crazy. Lol. Even scripting in I found it cumbersome when there are ikSplines that offer that fall off by default. And I could use the clusters to move the lips around and even scale them. Ooohhoo, the animators went berserker over that. They are such kids, let them squish and squash something and they loses their minds.





Thansk for shareing.

Laa-Yosh
07-01-2011, 10:50 PM
You could potentially transfer some of the weight painting to other characters.

Well, that doesn't always work as well as one would hope. And you can also transfer blendshapes to that extent with a few simple tricks using wrap deformers ;)

More range of shapes with less work. There's only about 25 shapes sculpted for that character.
More freedom for the animators - they're not bound to sliders, and can push shapes 'further' if needed. Also the animators could move the controllers non-linear way between the shapes if they desired.

You really don't think there's any merit in this at all?

I think it's great for cartoon characters - where the shape of the face is more simple because of the stylization and the animators are both expected and also free to push it far.

For a realistic face, precise control, consistency and subtlety are more important. I'm also trying to be more of a modeler than a rigger, maybe that's another factor.

Also, non-linearity isn't such an important factor here. Very few people would notice the linear transition with a jaw opening blendshape, but you can recreate the effect of skin and flesh sliding over the jaw bone far better this way. The thing is that every vertex can be moved along a completely different and unique direction, whereas with skinning you're limited to a single transformation per joint, and so you'll end up needing a LOT of joints and a lot of tweaking for even just relatively simple actions.
A proper jaw opening motion is almost impossible to do with simple skinning and a single jaw joint, and once you have to add a blendshape to correct the result, you're ending up with more work to do - weight painting and shape sculpting instead of just the sculpting part.

It's no wonder that nearly every realistic CG character is built with blendshapes - just as nearly every stylized cartoonish one is using joints.

andyLP
07-01-2011, 11:14 PM
I think it's great for cartoon characters - where the shape of the face is more simple because of the stylization and the animators are both expected and also free to push it far.

For a realistic face, precise control, consistency and subtlety are more important. I'm also trying to be more of a modeler than a rigger, maybe that's another factor.


Ahh yes, I guess I was trying to get the best of both worlds.
Thanks for your feedback mate, I read your notes from the Dobby presentation. So interesting!

Laa-Yosh
07-01-2011, 11:21 PM
Heh, small world ;)

Anyway, I don't think there's anything wrong with a joint based face setup, it's just that for me it's a far longer road, like trying to play with legos while wearing pretty thick gloves. So in many ways I also look up on anyone willing to go with this approach :)

andyLP
07-03-2011, 04:35 AM
Because of the weight painting is why I stay away from facial bone rigs. I prefer to use blends and wires as a mix and add some bones where needed. The jaw, eyes and cheeks, some times. But you did a very good job with the system you used. How did you get the joints to fallow the controller, in a way that was not linear? I ran into that problem a while back as constraints work great to get things to fallow but for faces since the face is more of a curve then a straight line, things did not fallow accordingly I had to use nulls for offsets to get a nice curve in the fall off. Never the less it turned extremely complicated and did not look as good as blends do. You seemed to pull it off tho.

As for the lips, I have not used that system in a while hooking up all those dived notes drove me crazy. Lol. Even scripting in I found it cumbersome when there are ikSplines that offer that fall off by default. And I could use the clusters to move the lips around and even scale them. Ooohhoo, the animators went berserker over that. They are such kids, let them squish and squash something and they loses their minds.
Thansk for shareing.

Ahh to get the joints following the controllers in a non-linear way was a bit tricky. The hierarchy was quite deep for each 'intetween' joint. I'll go thru the basics.
Take the left top lip section for example. There are two inbetween joints: inner and outer.
The inner joint's parent null position would be constrained between the topLipMid_ctrl and the lfMouthCorner_ctrl, a third of the way along. The same goes for the outer joint but 2 thirds the way along.
Inner and outer joints are always aiming at lfMouthCorner (or topLipMid_ctrl, it doesn't matter which)
Say the lfMouthCorner_ctrl is moved along z. You can use that value to offset the local position of your inbetween joint with a multiplyDivide node or an anim curve or something.
Its quite hard to explain! Maybe I should do a vid on it.

andyLP
07-03-2011, 04:38 AM
Heh, small world ;)

Anyway, I don't think there's anything wrong with a joint based face setup, it's just that for me it's a far longer road, like trying to play with legos while wearing pretty thick gloves. So in many ways I also look up on anyone willing to go with this approach :)

Heh, fair enough. I like your analogy there! I think my next setup will be much more blendShape heavy as I want to push my sculpting skills a bit. But I also want to push my math too. Gotta find a worthy project!!

Cheers!

DaveGallagher
07-14-2011, 05:33 PM
I find at times the technology of facial rigging can get in the way of the aesthetics. Whatever way you go, keep your eye on the goal of making appealing shapes with the controls you have.

I actually made a face rig in a single day using the most basic approach, and making a few key shapes:
http://www.3dappealblog.com/2010/11/3d-appeal-blog-now-face-rig-in-one-day.html
http://www.3dappealblog.com/2010/11/3d-appeal-blog-now-face-rig-in-one-day_23.html

That said, my favorite method is a broad joint-based rig for the whole head, then a separate skin-cluster for the lipline and eyelids, and most everything else carefully made blendshapes --with lots of correctives.

I am making some nice facial rigs for AnimSchool.com (http://www.animschool.com), where we teach facial rigging etc.

http://www.mediafire.com/imgbnc.php/5d3f707b46bc98b158eebe394e76d9c63d0e8801cdb1561d5559a2c9c6e4a71d6g.jpg

andyLP
07-14-2011, 09:14 PM
I find at times the technology of facial rigging can get in the way of the aesthetics. Whatever way you go, keep your eye on the goal of making appealing shapes with the controls you have.

I actually made a face rig in a single day using the most basic approach, and making a few key shapes:
http://www.3dappealblog.com/2010/11/3d-appeal-blog-now-face-rig-in-one-day.html
http://www.3dappealblog.com/2010/11/3d-appeal-blog-now-face-rig-in-one-day_23.html

That said, my favorite method is a broad joint-based rig for the whole head, then a separate skin-cluster for the lipline and eyelids, and most everything else carefully made blendshapes --with lots of correctives.

I am making some nice facial rigs for AnimSchool.com (http://www.animschool.com), where we teach facial rigging etc.



How do you handle the correctives?

HippyDrome
07-14-2011, 09:43 PM
Hi,

Site is down for the time being

Cheers,

HD

DaveGallagher
07-15-2011, 07:11 PM
How do you handle the correctives?

Hi! They are built in Softimage because you can dynamically work on the base model at all times (transferred to Maya when it's all done).

They are fired mostly with min max statements:
blendShapeFace.angleLfwidenLf = min(blendShapeFace.angleLf, blendShapeFace.widenLf);

eek
07-16-2011, 05:02 AM
Hi! They are built in Softimage because you can dynamically work on the base model at all times (transferred to Maya when it's all done).

They are fired mostly with min max statements:
blendShapeFace.angleLfwidenLf = min(blendShapeFace.angleLf, blendShapeFace.widenLf);

Hi Dave,

Are they always interpolated linearly? Do you ever do non-linear correctives via the product of weights? eg:

shape c @ weight (a * b)

so that shape c, in fact exponentially ramps in:

(a * b) @ 0.25 = 0.0625
(a * b) @ 0.50 = 0.25
(a * b) @ 0.75 = 0.56
(a * b) @ 1.0 = 1.0

It gets even crazier when a combiner shape is the product of a weight position at an in between value e.g. shape c = weight a @ 0.5. So that shape a's weight interpolation 0 > 0.5 > 1.0 actually returns 0.0 > 1.0 > 0.0 for shape c.

The actual interpolator could even be non-linear itself e.g weight a for t[0,0.5,1.0] = easeIn/easeOut

with this paradigm you can build complex layers of interpolation, DPK talks more about it here:

http://www.stargrav.com/bcs/docs/data/ap1-dps.html#dps

with a clip:

http://dpk.stargrav.com/bcs/bcsTestAnim01_small.mov


As im diving into maya, maybe it'll be one of my learning projects to build a dag node to do it. One question though is that do you ever get a combiner shape that exists in a range that doesn't start at 0?

e.g.

shape c @ 1.0 = weight a @ 0.5 for t[0.25,0.75]


cheers

DaveGallagher
07-16-2011, 07:33 PM
Hi! I use multiplying sometimes.

But yes, in all my face rigs, I use the method of making a corrective turn on when another shape is at half strength. This is so I can have a very large range of articulation and still control the shape.

For example, when the inner brow goes down halfway to its (quite) low pose, the mid pose isn't very attractive, so it gets spruced up with a halfway corrective.

Hi Dave,

Are they always interpolated linearly? Do you ever do non-linear correctives via the product of weights? eg:

shape c @ weight (a * b)

so that shape c, in fact exponentially ramps in:

(a * b) @ 0.25 = 0.0625
(a * b) @ 0.50 = 0.25
(a * b) @ 0.75 = 0.56
(a * b) @ 1.0 = 1.0

It gets even crazier when a combiner shape is the product of a weight position at an in between value e.g. shape c = weight a @ 0.5. So that shape a's weight interpolation 0 > 0.5 > 1.0 actually returns 0.0 > 1.0 > 0.0 for shape c.

The actual interpolator could even be non-linear itself e.g weight a for t[0,0.5,1.0] = easeIn/easeOut

with this paradigm you can build complex layers of interpolation, DPK talks more about it here:

http://www.stargrav.com/bcs/docs/data/ap1-dps.html#dps

with a clip:

http://dpk.stargrav.com/bcs/bcsTestAnim01_small.mov


As im diving into maya, maybe it'll be one of my learning projects to build a dag node to do it. One question though is that do you ever get a combiner shape that exists in a range that doesn't start at 0?

e.g.

shape c @ 1.0 = weight a @ 0.5 for t[0.25,0.75]


cheers

eek
07-23-2011, 10:42 PM
Hi,

I just put up the first of twenty or so Articulation videos on Vimeo. These will be part of a new section on my web page. This section will cover Articulating the face but I have not launch the web part yet.

This is just a sample that tries to explain the way that I go about working on the design of a character mesh. It's all done on the wipe board and on the web it will be explained in greater detail, with more example of this type of mesh.

All these video will be more on the art side and not the technical rigging part.


http://vimeo.com/25969681
http://www.hippydrome.com/


Cheers,

HD

Your video was awesome man! - Like how you use poles as direction changers - essentially into 'islands of detail' - noes, mouth, eyes..

HippyDrome
07-26-2011, 11:29 PM
Your video was awesome man! - Like how you use poles as direction changers - essentially into 'islands of detail' - noes, mouth, eyes..



Thanks Eek.

here is the mesh that I use for my base start for my
characters. This is just a flat plane that I can punch out into the 3d design.

Cheers HD

eek
07-27-2011, 05:23 AM
Thanks Eek.

Just put up two more videos and here is the mesh that I use for my base start for my
characters. This is just a flat plane that I can punch out into the 3d design.

Cheers HD


I'm so nervous about that pole at the junction of the cheek - i'm amazed it works! I've been trying to push the poles as far away as possible. - trying to keep to the edge loop Bay Raitt put out a few years back - especially around the mouth.

HippyDrome
08-07-2011, 06:52 PM
Hi,

Site is down for the moment


Cheers,

HD

MarkInTx
08-08-2011, 02:07 AM
I just put up the first of twenty or so Articulation videos on Vimeo. These will be part of a new section on my web page. This section will cover Articulating the face but I have not launch the web part yet.


This is really like a master course in modeling... thanks so much for doing this!

But, one thing... I only see 4 videos on the Vimeo channel... you said there are twenty somewhere?

HippyDrome
08-08-2011, 02:57 PM
[/QUOTE]But, one thing... I only see 4 videos on the Vimeo channel... you said there are twenty somewhere?[/QUOTE]


There are more but I am going to try to launch them with parts that I finish on my web page.

cheers,

HD

MarkInTx
08-08-2011, 03:34 PM
There are more but I am going to try to launch them with parts that I finish on my web page.


Oh... OK. I'll be patient then.

Thanks again...

pluMmet
08-09-2011, 01:19 PM
OMG such a helpful thread...

adding a comment will keep me email updated :)

HippyDrome
08-18-2011, 04:24 AM
Hi,

My site is dwn for the time being.

cheers,

HD

MarkInTx
08-18-2011, 12:00 PM
I started to update the Brow and Lid Up/Down page. Just the foundation target work for the In, Mid and Out parts.
http://www.hippydrome.com/BrowUD.html
http://www.hippydrome.com/EyeLids


Ahhh... cool to see the mask in action! (BTW, love that white board of yours!)

liquidik
09-05-2011, 09:00 AM
I think HippyDrome's video are gone :(

MarkInTx
09-05-2011, 01:02 PM
I think HippyDrome's video are gone :(

Looks that way. The Vimeos are password protected, and the facial animation pages are all now marked "Under Construction."

Maybe he decided to move them off of Vimeo, and it is in process?

DaveGallagher
10-29-2011, 02:29 PM
Hi guys! I wanted to let you know you can take a look at how I rig faces. Here is the walkthrough of the rig:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSYq5U7bptw&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.animschool.com/Uploads/materials/malcolmRigTourPart2.jpg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSYq5U7bptw)

AND you can download the rig here (except for certain uses described there):

www.animschool.com (http://www.animschool.com)
http://animschool.com/Uploads/HomePageMedia/freeCharacterHeaderMaya1.jpg (http://www.animschool.com)

eek
10-30-2011, 03:45 AM
Beautifully manipulatable Dave! - gives me some ideas :)

TimCallaway
01-26-2012, 05:40 PM
Back from the dead. Joint based set-up I've been working on for a while now.

http://vimeo.com/26552454

HippyDrome
01-28-2012, 07:12 PM
I think HippyDrome's video are gone :(

All are down at the moment except the intro to "Modeling for Articulation".

I just updated one of my pages with a few mesh designs.

http://www.hippydrome.com/MeshDesignFace.html

cheers,

HD

pooby
04-17-2012, 09:51 PM
basic Eye rig Shape mixing with sofimage ICE

http://vimeo.com/40517996
http://vimeo.com/40524205
http://vimeo.com/40526934

eek
07-01-2012, 05:48 AM
Has anyone looked at combination sculpture. From my understanding because there is a separation of pose and weight you can have 10 weights/dimensions driving 100+ poses.

MarkInTx
07-06-2012, 02:32 AM
All are down at the moment except the intro to "Modeling for Articulation".

I just updated one of my pages with a few mesh designs.

http://www.hippydrome.com/MeshDesignFace.html

cheers,

HD

Glad this is coming back online... it is really a remarkably useful site of information... thanks for sticking with it!

(Now you need to get your colleague Rich Hurrey to include this in his new rigging tutorial!)

Nixellion
09-21-2012, 01:22 PM
Hi, guys

I'm recearching a facial animation right now. I need to create realistic human face animation (not a cartoon one) for my project, mocap+keyframes. So, I'm searching for a best way to do this.

Right now I'm choosing among facerobot in softimage, or bonyface in max, or custom morph\bone rig in either of them, or even something more advanced, like muscle-skin systems. I'm reading through this thread, but god, there are 60 pages, it would be great if someone just point me in the right direction on this matter.

What is the best approach for realistic human face animation for a CG short aiming at photorealism, possibly using mocap?

Presonaly, I really like Blur's facial animation, they use FaceRobot. But maybe there is no need in this, and I can stick with 3ds max, since all the rendering will be done there...

Thanks!

Laa-Yosh
09-21-2012, 01:39 PM
I would certainly not even try muscle or any other simulation based systems, far too slow viewport feedback for animation work.

I also wouldn't recommend bones. The best bone based realistic facial animation I've seen is in the Uncharted games - but they're basically emulating a blendshape / morph based system complete with corrective shapes, because the Playstation console doesn't have enough resources to implement it (mostly memory).

We did some quick tests with Facerobot but abandoned it because our animation is done in Maya (the entire pipeline too) and it would have been far too complicated to interface the two.
You want to animator to be able to modify the head, neck and eyes too, and follow things with a lookAt type control, so we'd have to move a LOT of stuff into Softimage and replicate functionality and rigs, then move the whole thing back... Blur has an easier time because their entire animation pipeline is XSI, they export vertex caches back into Max where they do lighting, rendering and FX.
By the way, according to their character artists the Far Cry 3 trailer used regular blendshape rigs too and no Facerobot. They did not really explain why, though.


So what we're using and what I can recommend is blendshapes. It has worked reasonably well, we've recently wrapped a project with a lot of facial animation, lip sync and some close-up shots, and we ended up putting a lot more effort into polishing the animation compared to how much tweaking the shapes have seen, based on the sups' feedback. There was an additional layer of clusters to tweak stuff but the animators have never really used it, the shapes were enough for what they were doing.

Truth be told I'm still fairly nervous about the reaction once it goes public, but I firmly believe in the approach. The rigs are fast even with 18-20k polys in the head, the rig is robust and easy to tweak and modify, although you can definitely speed up the workflow for corrective shapes with some scripting and automatization to propagate changes into the various correctives. Chaining up several blendshapes also allows for trickier stuff like sticky lips and such so it's also quite flexible. The kind of thing I wouldn't use this for is opening the jaws of a crocodile, but it's good for almost everything else, particularly human faces.

Benzin
09-21-2012, 01:45 PM
I would go for the Face Robot if it needs to be realistic face with mocap, after all it was made for it, you can cache out everything and render it wherever you want...

Laa-Yosh
09-21-2012, 01:53 PM
you can cache out everything and render it wherever you want...

Unfortunately it doesn't work like that...

You need to be able to control where the character looks, you need the stuff he/she looks at. You need to be able to tilt the head, sometimes you might need a hand to touch the face, and so on. So you need to move a LOT of your scene into XSI and you need to duplicate parts of your rig with the complete functionality. If you use any app specific elements it might not even be possible at all.

Then there are the deformations. What if it's a single mesh for the entire body, like if you're doing a Hulk, and you have the rest of the rig in Maya? Even with a regular character you need deformations from the neck and the collar bones on the same mesh... where to cut the pipeline and insert the cached stuff from XSI and how to combine it with the rest?

So no, unfortunately it's not that simple. And I haven't even touched on how you really, really need to have fully shaded and rendered previews to evaluate human facial animation because so much is changed by shadows, SSS shading and speculars, even by things like eyelashes and of course you want to see eyebrows as well. Having to transfer the data regularly to a different app can make test renders quite complicated as well, you need to export the cache again and again...

Nixellion
09-21-2012, 03:09 PM
Unfortunately it doesn't work like that...

You need to be able to control where the character looks, you need the stuff he/she looks at. You need to be able to tilt the head, sometimes you might need a hand to touch the face, and so on. So you need to move a LOT of your scene into XSI and you need to duplicate parts of your rig with the complete functionality. If you use any app specific elements it might not even be possible at all.

Then there are the deformations. What if it's a single mesh for the entire body, like if you're doing a Hulk, and you have the rest of the rig in Maya? Even with a regular character you need deformations from the neck and the collar bones on the same mesh... where to cut the pipeline and insert the cached stuff from XSI and how to combine it with the rest?

So no, unfortunately it's not that simple. And I haven't even touched on how you really, really need to have fully shaded and rendered previews to evaluate human facial animation because so much is changed by shadows, SSS shading and speculars, even by things like eyelashes and of course you want to see eyebrows as well. Having to transfer the data regularly to a different app can make test renders quite complicated as well, you need to export the cache again and again...

Thanks for answering!

Actually, I was thinking about moving into XSI as much as I can, but it is not possible with this project, I have no time to move completely from 3ds max, which I use since 5th version, to the complete new package... I thought about making all the animation in XSI, but rendering is still in 3ds max. We also think about using stress maps displacing the wrinkles, but then I'll need to export animated textures from XSI in 4k, I'm not sure it is worth it.

Well, the good point about this project is that it is sci-fi, character wear helmets and suits, and it makes finding the "pipeline cutting edge" easy. But still... Lots of other export-import issues. Even though XSI now have a send to max\maya button.

Well, I'll try to stick to the software I know then, max. Talking about mocap and blendshapes, how do I make it? I mean, there are a lot of small movements in human face, so I'll need to make about 6-8 points for mouth, nose controls, cheeck, brows, etc. What can you advise about that, what is the best way to control morphs(blendshapes) with mocap data?

Laa-Yosh
09-21-2012, 03:36 PM
I would advise against using 3D mocap and look into a 2D, facecam-based solution like Faceware. Nearly every studio uses this method, the difference is that movie VFX houses write their own solvers and sometimes use 2 or 4 cameras; whereas Faceware is more common for games and works with a single camera.

I'm actually not aware of any off-the-shelf system that could use 3D data (in c3d form) to drive a custom blendshape rig, the only such solution I ever heard about is Facerobot. Most studios using 3D mocap are driving a bone rig with it and the results are mixed - although the new game from the Heavy Rain team looks quite good, I think it's called Beyond.

Laa-Yosh
09-21-2012, 03:38 PM
Also, can't say much about rigging in Max, I think you should look into Paul Neale's stuff if you need help or something.

Nixellion
09-21-2012, 03:42 PM
The rigging approach is almost the same in any 3d app, I can transfer maya\xsi examples, if you have those.

Actually I thought about faceshift (which can make either 3d or 2d tracking, from both RGB and Depth sensors of kinect) or some other 2d tracking programs, but not faceware, since, as I get it, you need to send them your video, and they track it there... Strange approach for me, in fact.

Laa-Yosh
09-21-2012, 04:29 PM
Well the one thing I tried was the chained blendshapes in Maya.

So I put a Morpher modifier on top of a mesh I used as a target for another Morpher, and set the modifier on top to auto reload targets. It was very, very slow, whereas in Maya the different architecture means there's practically no noticeable slowdown at all.

This means that the method I use for sticky lips in Maya is just not feasible in Max... although it's not a question of features but architecture and application speed.

Nixellion
09-21-2012, 05:04 PM
Yeah, I did not mean that everything is similar, but some general things can be transfered.

As far as I know, there are other ways to create sticky lips in max, using modifiers, scripts, etc.

Well, thanks a lot, I'll try to dig into morph rigs then

hotknife
11-07-2012, 12:00 PM
Nixellion

Presonaly, I really like Blur's facial animation, they use FaceRobot. But maybe there is no need in this, and I can stick with 3ds max, since all the rendering will be done there...

Check out the tracking with :-
http://www.di-o-matic.com/products/Software/Maskarad/#page=overview

Nixellion
11-07-2012, 02:52 PM
Checked that one, well, dont really thing that it gives good enough results. I think it needs some testing

Nixellion
11-11-2012, 07:15 PM
I have another question about facial animation, but i thought it should be in a software specific forum, here it is

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=24&t=1079567


A few questions about FR Is there a way to attach FR rig to character rig? If working with FR and 3ds max pipeline, how to export FR face animation to 3ds max's character? In general - what is the FR\3ds max pipeline, are there any tutorials on that? FR\Maya pipeline tutorials will fit too, i think ill find a way to convert it to 3ds max, if there are no specific tools used. Thx!

gmask
12-30-2012, 02:47 AM
but not faceware, since, as I get it, you need to send them your video, and they track it there... Strange approach for me, in fact.


Faceware Analyzer is the latest release in the Faceware software suite that allows you to do the video analysis portion of the pipeline in-house, without ever needing to send a video off-site. FTI still offers video tracking as a service, but with Analyzer you have the ability to have your team run the analysis which lets you capture, analyze, and retarget animation all on-site.

HippyDrome
04-26-2013, 04:11 AM
Hi all,

I finished my ibook on facial articulation and got it published on Monday.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-art-of-moving-points/id639498241?mt=11

cheers,

HD

mattmos
04-26-2013, 04:25 AM
Hi Hippydrome,

the book looks great! Any plans to release it on any other format for us poor non-IPad users?

TimCallaway
04-26-2013, 05:09 AM
Hi all,

I finished my ibook on facial articulation and got it published on Monday.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-art-of-moving-points/id639498241?mt=11

cheers,

HD
Oooo, Ima have to check that out.

Incedently, I just did a tutorial for Digital Tutors showing how I do facial setups on Grimm.


Using nurbs curves with joints "riding along" with the curves. That with a combination of PSD's, the rig is very versatile. I hope to get some feed back from it haha.

MarkInTx
04-26-2013, 11:03 AM
Hi all,
I finished my ibook on facial articulation and got it published on Monday.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-art-of-moving-points/id639498241?mt=11
HD

I've been waiting for this! Now I guess I'll have to wait awhile longer until it is available on non-apple gear. I don't like Apple's "walled garden"). Hopefully it won't be too much longer for that...



Incidentally, I just did a tutorial for Digital Tutors showing how I do facial setups on Grimm.
Using nurbs curves with joints "riding along" with the curves. That with a combination of PSD's, the rig is very versatile. I hope to get some feed back from it haha.

Which one is that? I went and looked for it, but DT doesn't let you search by Author's name (that I could see). Could you post a link?

TimCallaway
04-26-2013, 10:51 PM
lol, I think it goes live on the 1st. Sorry, I jumped the gun.

HippyDrome
04-29-2013, 05:18 AM
Hi,

First written review about my ibook, The Art of Moving Points.

http://blogs.indiewire.com/animationscoop/ebook-review-the-art-of-moving-points

cheers,

HD

TimCallaway
05-19-2013, 12:27 AM
Here is the preview for the DT I worked on. Hope you guys check it out, airs on Monday.

https://vimeo.com/66106265

joshpurple
05-19-2013, 01:00 AM
Here is the preview for the DT I worked on. Hope you guys check it out, airs on Monday.

https://vimeo.com/66106265

Excellent, I'll be sure to watch that :beer: !

HippyDrome
07-31-2013, 03:18 PM
Hi,

Here is a link to the meshes that I used for my iBook. "The Art of Moving Point".



These meshes are a good starting point to learn about topology needed for good articulation and deformation. They were used as the starting point for most all of my character work at Pixar.

Note that the spans are roughly laid out and could further polishing to improve the final deformations.


http://www.riggingdojo.com/free-mod...hippydrome-com/ (http://www.riggingdojo.com/free-model-from-hippydrome-com/)

https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/th...639498241?mt=11 (https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-art-of-moving-points/id639498241?mt=11)

http://www.hippydrome.com/MeshDesignFace.html

Cheers,

HD

joshpurple
07-31-2013, 04:10 PM
Hi,

Here is a link to the meshes that I used for my iBook. "The Art of Moving Point".



These meshes are a good starting point to learn about topology needed for good articulation and deformation. They were used as the starting point for most all of my character work at Pixar.

Note that the spans are roughly laid out and could further polishing to improve the final deformations.


http://www.riggingdojo.com/free-mod...hippydrome-com/ (http://www.riggingdojo.com/free-model-from-hippydrome-com/)

https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/th...639498241?mt=11 (https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-art-of-moving-points/id639498241?mt=11)

http://www.hippydrome.com/MeshDesignFace.html

Cheers,

HD

Outstanding! Thank You :D

HippyDrome
10-24-2013, 03:08 PM
Hi,

You can now read my iBook on any Apple computer running OS X Mavericks.

The iBook is for sale in all countries that it can be sold in. You can check the iTunes store to see if your country is on the list.

cheers,

HD




Hi,

Here is a link to the meshes that I used for my iBook. "The Art of Moving Point".



These meshes are a good starting point to learn about topology needed for good articulation and deformation. They were used as the starting point for most all of my character work at Pixar.

Note that the spans are roughly laid out and could further polishing to improve the final deformations.


http://www.riggingdojo.com/free-mod...hippydrome-com/ (http://www.riggingdojo.com/free-model-from-hippydrome-com/)

https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/th...639498241?mt=11 (https://itunes.apple.com/us/book/the-art-of-moving-points/id639498241?mt=11)

http://www.hippydrome.com/MeshDesignFace.html

Cheers,

HD

baskin
04-26-2014, 04:17 PM
Hi everyone-

I recently completed a Lynda.com course on this subject. You can check it out here:
http://www.lynda.com/Maya-tutorials/Facial-Rigging-Maya/149842-2.html

And if you aren't already a Lynda.com member, you can sign up for a 7 day free Lynda.com trial here:
http://lynda.com/trial/JasonBaskin

I'd love to hear your feedback.

Best,
Jason

OmrianGames
05-31-2014, 12:11 PM
Hi
What software do you guys use for rigging?
I used Blender for some time but i didn't really get along with it.
Any reccomendations?

Nixellion
05-31-2014, 08:53 PM
I think most people will recommend Maya for rigging, as it is really the most powerful software when it comes to character rigging and animation.

Shamayel
06-13-2014, 10:34 AM
Hi,
I think a blend shape based rig is very fast to get appeal and correct pose.
I Do this rig in some projects, you can see in below link.
Any suggestion,comments and criticism are welcome.

58604408

designingpatrick
06-17-2014, 05:03 PM
I had a browse through this thread, and am pretty sure that I know my answer, but thought I'd get your perspective:

I'm setting up characters for a cell-shaded animation. I am also referring to the book 'Stop Staring'. Osipa heavily promotes blend shapes/morph targets/additive deformation. I feel the two big reasons are to preserve volume and speed the animation process through key sets, especially for lip sync and face acting.

More natural, to me, is a joint-based rig. I found some useful information from the Last of Us team who used a combination approach, primarily joints with morph target correctives for conservation of volume.

Of course, in the end, it's whatever looks good and works well for the animators. And so far, joints are doing that for me. I imagine that the greatest control is sculpting the essential areas for brow creases, nasolabial fold, etc. But for something simple, quick and easy it seems that joints are the way to go.

Any other thoughts on an approach?

http://patrickcoan.com/images/claire-face.png